Freedomain Radio: The Robber Barons and Philosophy

[ostralopithicus]

We can dig up lots of facts and base our theories on studies of this bit of history or that, but then we're just fighting from separate battlements. Often the truth just requires a little thought.

[ostralopithicus]

Fear the robber baron! Just as the church uses the fear of the devil to keep people from straying, the state uses robber baron mythology to keep people in it's house of worship.

[ArthurPonzarelli]

The RBs were each others competitors! There were no RBCs in the form offered in this video. The RBs got together to end their problem of competition and form one giant monopoly.

It isnt a matter of customer preference when there isnt any choice!

[JackofOneTrade567]

@ArthurPonzarelli Did they even work in the same industry?

[drgincali]

Boy, you really worked hard to make heroes out of murderers, manipulators, cheaters, and generally greedy, inhuman sons of bitches.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps the small minority in control of the vast majority. This thinking is why capitalism is quickly destroying the world by exploiting the poor, depleting resources, and destroying the environment. Way to make it work for you.

[ExquisiteDoom]

@drgincali Wow, you went out of your way to try and refute Molyneux by calling these people cheaters and murderers. Good rebuttal, jackass.

[drgincali]

@ExquisiteDoom No problem. I didn't go out of my way at all, it was my pleasure. Enjoy living in your little bubble of exquisite doom.

[ExquisiteDoom]

@drgincali I like my bubble.

[JackofOneTrade567]

@drgincali Does the truth matter so little to you?

[Yankhadenough]

Libertarians are against the Constitution of the United STATES of America, they only believe in liberty FROM the Constitution. Libertarians do NOT believe in government by, of , and for WE THE PEOPLE.

[JackofOneTrade567]

@Yankhadenough Depends on the libertarian. Some liberatarians, anarcho-capitalists like myself, don't see the need for a constitution since I don't feel it gives us anything other than a small govt to be exploited by.

Minarchists, on the other hand, are more likely to be consitutionalists.

Do your homework.

[Yankhadenough]

Libertarianism is just anarchy for the rich, a neo-feudalism that believes the rich should lord over the poor. No thank you. Libertarians are robber barons of the federal and states' treasuries, bleed public services and schools and higher education dry with no taxation and cuts , and want to privatize everything so the poor will have to pay user fees for everything. Good-bye American middle class.

[JackofOneTrade567]

@Yankhadenough This ignores the fact that our middle class is already being eroded by statism. It also assumes that all libertarians are rich and only want to benefit the rich.

[kurd55]

Libertarianism is just another form of religious fundamentalism. How many time does unbridled capitalism have to fail in order for you to pull yer head out of yer ass? In your mind, soup lines didn't exist; abject poverty didn't exist; monopolies didn't exist; people didn't get shot in union lines. It was all just a figment of our imagination! Anti-trust legislation TRIES to protect workers. Libertarianism is the scientology of economics. Good luck with yer randroid theology degree.

[LilAlexInWonderland]

If you have a more rational economic theory, shoot.

The labor theory of value is hogwash. Google "Rothbard Smith bread diamonds" and Keynesianism, by Keynes' words himself, only serves the political and banking class.

Reason, sir. It's good for you.

[kurd55]

Spoken like a true Randroid fundamentalist. Hey, if you want to worship the delusions of a goofy 2-bit pulp novelist, so be it. Say hello to yer Heavens Gate buddies floating somewhere in the ass-end of Hale Bopp! C-ya.

[LilAlexInWonderland]

I'm not a Randroid. Are you going to address my comment or make assumptions based on things that aren't anywhere in my comment.

[Brassmouth]

Don't waste your time, lilalex, that fool is far beyond help. He's completely lost to statist indoctrination.

[jasonnm72]

Libertarians should be fundamentalists.

Whats more fundamental than freedom?

[kurd55]

WOW! That there is just like that other real smart fundementalist sayin', "FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!"

One in the same.

You should be proud.

[jasonnm72]

He was right. Freedom isn't free.

I would rather make a true statement using poor grammar, than be wrong altogether, but maybe you don't care about the weight of your ideas, as long as you think you sound clever.

I'm probably wasting my time with you, but I'll ask the same question again. What is more fundamental, to a life worth living, than freedom?

[kurd55]

jasonnm72: Well, since youre to all into that "macho" turn of phrase bullshit---get yer ass over to Afghanistan, hero. LOL! YOU pay that price for your "freedom." Theyll take ya up to 42, ya pussy, Randroid prick.

[EpicGilGamesh]

Steph engaging as always. I don't want to distract from your point, because I believe it is a clever entertaining way to show philosophy as a tool for thought. Do your arguments assume RBs, RBCs, and politicians are all separate entities and the relationship between them is primarily financial? Could the same assessment be made without these assumptions?

[Shandalaybgood]

thank you so much steph! its great that sometimes when a vid starts i may not know what your talking about, like i dont really know anything, or hardly anything, about the subject. but i usually get it in the end, or even sooner! thats cool. your an awesome teacher.

[Shandalaybgood]

i like your pp

[Orenazt]

Sorry, that should be "have forgotten their own roots"

[Orenazt]

Benjamin Tucker, a free market libertarian who actually lived in the 19th century, knew that that Hamiltonian "American System" was nothing close to a free market. But you wouldn't know that, because modern libertarians have bought into the mythic past of conservatism and has forgotten its own roots.

[thorsmitersaw]

behold the results of making deals and pacts with the enemy of your enemy.

[AzraelsJudgement]

People are so obsessed with the 1800's. I would be more worried about the future sense Statism is bring civilization to its knees.

[iamjackscolin]

I don't think you're being very fair to what the robber barons did. They sold their products lower than others because they could absorb the costs in order to drive the competition out of business.  I, by no means want to paint the government as angelic saviors, but the Robber Barons are a historical example of the dangers of a "free market"

[Orenazt]

It wasn't a free market! They could undersell their competitors because they had deals with the government-created railroad monopolies to offer lower prices to transport their products.

[iamjackscolin]

Yes, they had the assistance of the state, but if a senator is making $10 you know Mr. Rockefeller's making $1000. That was a time when the state was truly a tool of industry. And these were also industries that treated people as a means to an end, no more. I also think it's a mistake to assume that people are always at liberty to pursue the best/cheapest product.

[davidngo4415]

hence the need for the separation of the state and industry.

[picapauengracado]

«it's a mistake to assume that people are always at liberty to pursue the best/cheapest product.»

That's why Stef mentioned equal value. Ads and logistics are a very important factor for businesses like retailers.

[Ape65]

Why do you ignore the preditory violence of the Robber Barons - especially in the early years? The US petroleum industry of the 1870's obviously benefited from consolidation, but in the early years much of the consolidation was achieved because Standard Oil forced many of their competitors to sell out under threat of violence.

[davyjames]

If that's true then how is it a free market? And even if it is true. all anti-trust is is forcing people to do things under the threat of violence.

[Ape65]

Sadly violence is an inevitable and unescapable fact of life. However the somewhat limited violence of a modern democratic state is moderated by laws, regulations and procedures (that are really rituals), so is preferable to the arbitrary violence of the mafia or of the very early years of the robber barons.

[thorsmitersaw]

The true robber barons of the 18th century were empowered by your laws, regulations, and "procedures" to gain advantage over their free market competitors. James Hill and Vanderbilt BRAGGED of out-doing government subsidized, protected, railroads and operating totally upon free exchange. The "regulations" that followed were thinly veiled acts of bullying aimed at eliminating those like Hill and Vanderbilt who dare challenge the government privledged businessmen.

[lukeev]

Really fabulous video Stef. These are practical, useful techniques using the Socratic method. I'm often frustrated trying to elaborate upon certain socio-economic, moral or logical misconceptions to statists or religious folks. I think this approach saves a lot of time and energy and promotes analytical thinking to both parties. We cannot always be an expert in the field, but sometimes historical propaganda is so blatant one feels one must intervene, but can't always compare 'fact for fact'.

[adorianvlad]

On a much lower scale, but on practical terms and right here at youtube, there are some RB's between youtubesters, that, after using view spamming and rating spamming, were made YouTube Partners, making thousands of dollars from view fraud, while stef's videos hardly get 1000 views.

I am not sure if this very example above is reflectig the very principles exposed in this video regarding the RB's but I think I'm pretty close; the article can be found at encyclopediadramatica, search view fraud

[Orenazt]

I have a rather different view:

> The robber barons WERE beneficiaries of state intervention (Hamiltonian mercantilism)

> The reason the state suddenly "switched" to opposing them is that doing so enlarges the power of the state (that is, they pile on new interventions to counteract the effects of old interventions rather than repealing the old interventions)

[lukeev]

That is certainly the case (interestingly he's addressed this in other videos) and it's a well made point, but I think Stef was trying to take the more analytical approach to attacking specific arguments in the theme. Getting into the insidious expansion of state power might have been a bit too much for our poor statist friends to take!

[Adipatus]

I guess Anti-Trust laws had something to do with the specter of Communism, and maybe the Rb pissed off enough people. Maybe they delighted their customers with low prices, but Rbs made up for it by exploiting workers and vendors. So maybe the masses asked for a check on RBs, and the politicians were afraid of a Commie revolution. This is similar to Wal-Mart. Americans love to buy there, but employees, competitors, and vendors feel ripped off by Wal-Mart. So WM tries to appease public opinion.

[thorsmitersaw]

It very much depends on the specific robber barron in question

[thorsmitersaw]

"robber barron" that is. forgot my quotes :-P

Those on the receiving end of massive government intervention and protection ought to be looked at as collaborators with government. Part of the state themselves.

[Adipatus]

I take it that the RBCs pushed antitrust legislation because they offered the politicians more money than the RBs would. But why didn't th the RBs fight back by offering politicians more money than the RBCs?????

The RBs surely had more money and contacts to do this. Right?

[stefbot]

Why do you think that is the case? :)

[Adipatus]

Because the Rockefellers and Carnegie, et al, are said to have been fabulously wealthy. And, as you said, they made the better products, better delivery chains, better pricing, etc. So they must have also had the most friends in high places, lawyers, and money to buy the legislators/politicians to make sure to protect the freedom they needed to continue to thrive and beat the competitors.

[stefbot]

Right, so why do you think this did not happen?

[Adipatus]

Hmmm, I don't know. Self loathing? No. I really don't have an idea. Bill Gates has a ton of lawyers fighting for him and lobbying for his interests. So I guess the RBs did the same.

Or if you mean to ask why 'I' don't think this happened, I'm saying that I don't know what happened or didn't happen.

[thorsmitersaw]

Bill Gates is greatly benefited by STATE "intellectual property" laws.

[Adipatus]

fIRST!!!!!