Leonard Warren & Mario Del Monaco - Oh! Mostruosa colpa...si pel ciel - Otello - Verdi - LIVE!

[Maripudelmonaco]

EL MEJOR OTELLO DE LA HISTORIA !!! LEONARD WARREN, UN GRANDÍSIMO IAGO, !!!

[sugarbist]

A name ending in a vowel does not make you the greatest ever. I'm Italian and I enjoy Warren's voice more than Ruffo's.Perhaps Warren's voice does sound very Italian to me, besides the other attributes he is gifted with.When comparing 2 voices as formidable as these, it really doesn't make a difference whose was larger.Perhaps it wasn't prejudice against non italians but merely the fact that many operas were composed&sung by Italians.Have you ever heard Del Monaco Carreras or Domingo sing. cont

[Babywinona]

MARIO DEL MONACO HA SIDO, ES Y SERA EL MEJOR OTELLO DESDE QUE VERDI COMPUSO ESTA MARAVILLOSA OPERA.-

[legatofancier]

Tremendous collaboration between Del Monaco & Warren. According to the Warren biography, they were great pals. Honestly, I've never really cared for most of Warren's commercial recordings. However, I can better understand his reputation in live recordings like this one. Together, Del Monaco & Warren not only exhibit great power, but a remarkable sense of ease. That's all the more remarkable when you consider the intensity of the performance as well as the music itself. Very impressive!

[xLaughingManX]

I agree with Cafiero on that for sure. Giacomini at times give off a very odd sound that doesn't sound natural. Kaufmann does that as well. Perhaps it's just how his voice functions but it just sounds weird. For a dark tenor sound that is natural i'd say Vinay for sure would be a great example. Beautiful voice imo. And Cafiero in your opinion who had the bigger voice Del Monaco or Corelli? Also, as always for everyone, Ruffo and Caruso, Si Pel Ciel, end of discussion :P

[MrCafiero]

@xLaughingManX I think Del Monaco was bigger for sure. Corelli was more of a spinto and Del Monaco a true dramatic. And YES, RUFFO/CARUSO!!!

[legatofancier]

@xLaughingManX - In a Live At the Met broadcast intermission feature back in the '80's, Vinay and Licia Albanese were being interviewed. Vinay said that he thought that he was always a baritone. Licia Albanese, politely demured saying that he had "beautiful high notes." Go figure, huh?

[iamsingin]

I have a hard time believing that Del Monaca was "without a doubt bigger" than Giacomini. I get the feeling that there are places in the voice that are stronger for each singer. In any case, Giacomini, regardless of consistency issues, had a tremendously large and beautiful voice. It was no coincidence that he was frequently asked to do Chenier and Forza as he was one of the very few that could be heard in the rep.

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin Del Monaco was bigger by all accounts. I have never heard of anyone who heard both of them say that Giacomini was as big. And I don't think Giacomini had a "beautiful voice". And he didn't think so either. He would often say that his voice was not beautiful. He was in no way near the skill, beauty and greatness of Del Monaco. And that is quantifiable in many ways; squillante, evenness of tone, vibrato, release of constriction etc.

[iamsingin]

@MrCafiero Listen, man. I love Del Monaco. Clearly one of the best voices of all time. I also love Giacomini and find many aspects of his singing to touch me in ways that Mario couldn't and vice versa. I find Giacomini's voice to be absolutely gorgeous. Of course he had issues here and there like most everyone does. Del Monaco had a hell of a time with legato at times. Giacomini's own opinion of his voice is hardly important to me. Most singers only hear their own flaws. So, I love both.

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin Regardless of what you find beautiful, functionally Giacomini had a depressed larynx and a thick sound much of the time. Del Monaco did not have that. He had much better vowel clarity and ease.

[iamsingin]

@MrCafiero oh, and are you Danny?

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin Who?

[iamsingin]

Wow... Notice how nice Warren was at the end. He could have easily buried even Del Monaco on the high A, but took the harmony instead. Of course, maybe he just knew that Mario would have thrown a fit.

In my fantasy opera world, Warren sings this with Giacomini in his prime. I don't think you would be able to hear the orchestra with Giuseppe and Leonard singing a high A together.

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin Del Monaco was a much bigger and louder voice than Giacomini.

[iamsingin]

@MrCafiero I haven't heard either of them in the house, have heard very contrasting reports on both singers. I think that both were among the best of all time, so whatever. I do like Giacomin's color a little bit more in the lower roles, whereas Del Monaco had much better Bs and Cs..

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin Del Monaco was without a doubt bigger than Giacomini. My teacher also said Warren was equal in size to Del Monaco. I think Giacomini is inconsistent. Sometimes good, but other times with a depressed larynx and thick, odd sound.

[iamsingin]

@MrCafiero ,, sorry ran out of space, and I think I posted in the general area and not the reply... Anyway, as far as sheer size is concerned, I would point to the Si per ciel gala performance with Milnes. We all know that Milnes didn't have a huge voice by all-time standards, but certainly bigger than most baritones of today. In this clip, Giacomini absolutely eats Milnes. One can't even hear Milnes on the unison high A. Up to Bb, Giacmoni is one of the all time greats.

[MrCafiero]

@iamsingin A comparison against Milnes doesn't say much.

[lewashcliffe]

All the comments about Warren; Del Monaco was awesome in this role and this aria in particular. His powerful voice and declamatory style clearly placed his sound above the orchestra yet gave beauty and authority to the music being sung. This was Mario del Monaco at his very best.

[alragarp]

Duo de fabulosos cantantes.

[xLaughingManX]

While i agree completely that Ruffo was incredible, having the biggest voice without a doubt, i like Warren more for the richness of sound and the beauty of it. I'm not going to sit here and say this ones better or whatever. They're both amazing each with their strengths and weaknesses, Ruffo's strength being the sheer size and weakness being the sheer size lmao. Singing the way he did was too forceful and he would overblow his cords, hence him retiring relatively young.

[MrCafiero]

@xLaughingManX I have never heard Ruffo overblow his vocal folds. He sang for 30 years on a very high level. That is a long, long time.

[xLaughingManX]

@MrCafiero

Yes of course but his decline began relatively early. His singing was quite forceful perhaps caused by his not having a lot of proper training. As he said himself, he didn't want to teach later on because he didn't know how to sing with proper technique perhaps. But regardless of any of that, i would kill to have seen him live in his prime. Even the records now really gives an idea of how large his voice was. Overblowing or not, he can't be touched on sheer size and power.

[MrCafiero]

@xLaughingManX Actually, I did not begin that early. And we don't know about his health etc. Also, he said that he didn't know about technique, but I don't believe it. Firstly because he also wrote a long response about how his brother taught him a very detailed scientific method of voice. He also studied every day for months with Persechini and watching other pupils (including Battistini and De Luca) and then studied with two other baritones.

[xLaughingManX]

@MrCafiero

Ah well then maybe you're right. And yeah being in the war and all that stress from that could have put a serious dent in his voice. Or his health too like you said. I'd guess that he declined from a health problem that he didn't say anything about then. Or from his experiences in the war and such and the stress caused by it. That'd be my guess.

[MrCafiero]

@xLaughingManX These old singers really went through some crap in their lives.

[delosreyesgavikanes]

Placido, listen to this. You had guts trying to sing this role

[roselandalvin]

@delosreyesgavikanes no argument here- domingo was a believer in his own press - Nice guy but sang a few roles he should never have attempted - My first exposure to otello was when i was 8 or 9 and listened to Martinelli with Tibbett -Somehow that has stuck with me!

[ElSalvador50]

I'm surprised that Warren didn't take the last high note with MDM. Maybe Milnes was the only one who did that lol

[cdgray2]

Could it get any better that these two giants singing this duet. Well, maybe - with MacNeil as Iago, but Warren is just fine, thank you. del monaco is not to be contested.

[MrCafiero]

@cdgray2 And also Ruffo and Caruso. Amazing.

[roselandalvin]

@MrCafiero I agree with you totally - Caruso with anybody was enjoyable -That duet with those immense voices was legendary!

[legatofancier]

Fascinating comparisons! In the past, I've rarely appreciated Warren's commercial recordings. He tends to sound different in recordings from live performances. Of course, I'm too young to have heard him live. In most recordings, I would tend to describe his voice as "thick," but of course that's just subjective. Having heard McNeil live when he was singing well, it was a treat for the ears! It's a privilege to read such a well informed, civilized discussion!

[Cantormatis]

what's the date of the performance? Both of them are singing like gangbusters- especially del Monaco. Wow, is this exciting singing. Where was this performance?

[gaemp]

just SUPER!!!! no other tenor can sing Otello like MDM!

[DonPaolissimo]

The greatest twosome imaginable in this duet & the rest of the opera! Warren was the epitome of Verdi baritone singing - compare his Rigoletto bdcsts (7, I believe, from 1944 to 1959) to the trash that has been foeced upon our unsuspecting ears ever since.

[MARKLYN56]

Del Monaco perfetto, Warren a momenti mi sembra un po' in ritardo..

[halavey]

Read down and find out.

[operabeauty]

what on earth has this to do with del Moncaco and Warren singing the Otello duet?

[tomzoricic]

what on earth the question is this?

[halavey]

No-- saying Warren was not near Ruffo? Just opinion of course and that means of course your opinion, many would not agree though most Italians who are older would probably be Ruffo fans. I did not hear him and don't believe anyone about the power but then i never heard warren but did hear mac neil and it was huge believe me. Caruso and Ruffo are legends but for me Warren was the Verdi baritone, Ruffo not a favorite of mine of course, coarse sound compared to Warren, so I don't agree.

[halavey]

Used to be prejudice? Still goes on and Ponselle making that remark-- if she did I would like to see it in print, sounds odd cause his voice was not really bigger if at all and if it was you can still compare even if it was more dramatic you can compare tech. and sound in the same role, where can I read her quote? Perhaps she did not like Warren, many did not. Peerce told me in 1932 he heard Ruffo in house he could hardly sing and was yelling-- he was what? late 40's then?

[halavey]

Ponselle was of Italian decent so thats her opinion and yet Peerce and several singers have said Warren was the greatest and really who cares what Ponselle said if you don't agree. Albanese said Gigli was the greatest and Pavoratti said his fav. was Di Stefano, he loved Tucker but Di Stefano and Gigli where his pick, fine but that does not mean that Di Stefano was greater then say Bjorling? most swedes prefer jussi. In 1949 his reviews for Rigoletto mentioned he outdid Ruffo I agree.

[halavey]

Perhaps if Warren was Italian he would be called the greatest ever, Tucker once said if your name ends in a vowel it helps a lot and it did. In my day prejudice existed against non Italian singers, so people like Mc Cormack when he went to Italy changed his name to Foli I think it was. Many Americans did also like Frank Valentino etc.

[MrCafiero]

I can see that there used to be prejudice, but Warren is nowhere near Ruffo. People that heard both of them have said so, even Ponselle. Ponselle said it was an unfair comparison because Ruffo's voice was bigger and more dramatic.

[stevevandien]

@MrCafiero Dear Cafiero, I'm curious -- leaving Ruffo aside (sui generis:)), whom do you prefer, Warren or MacNeil? And why? Once more, the last thing from my mind is a fight over this:). Just wondering what your opinions and reasoning is regarding these two major-league Verdi baritones --

[MrCafiero]

@stevevandien I would not fight over something subjective; which do you like better, coke or pepsi? LOL! I think MacNeil in his prime had squillante - while still being super dark - while Warren always had some thickness in the sound which puts me off a bit.

[stevevandien]

@MrCafiero OK, fair enough. Personally, I've heard some recordings and videos of Warren in which I truly don't hear thickness, just size. But that's just me. Still curious about a related topic: how would you rate MacNeil in relation to Ruffo? Guess I'm wondering if you have a top ten list of Verdi baritones.

I prefer Classic Coke to Pepsi, but would rather have Diet Pepsi than Diet Coke:) Best always, Steve

[MrCafiero]

@stevevandien You cannot really say that you have heard some recordings of Warren where you don't hear "thickness" as that is a term I have used and you would have to know exactly what I mean when I say that; and that would take demonstration.

Ruffo was king for me. I think MacNeil in his prime is right up there, but Ruffo had something special. Bartiones I always look to are: Ruffo, Battistini, MacNeil, Merrill, Tibbett, Granforte, Ancona, Sammarco, Tagliabue, Molinari, etc.

[MrCafiero]

@roselandalvin Please refrain from telling me what I mean by thick. I know exactly what causes thickness. And Warren - while amazing - had that flaw. No one is perfect. I don't compare ANYONE to Ruffo because no one can touch him

[legatofancier]

@MrCafiero - Could any baritone voice have equaled the size and dramatic impact of Titta Ruffo's voice? Ruffo's musicianship (or lack of it, as some would say) is often criticized, but the innate musicality of his singing is still remarkable.

[MrCafiero]

@legatofancier No they couldn't. Ruffo's voice was just enormous. Even Poselle said his voice was bigger than Warren and the like.

[legatofancier]

@MrCafiero - An elderly former helden baritone told me that when Titta Ruffo took his high notes it sounded like bells ringing. Warren's soft grained, extremely covered voice never appealed to me. Ruffo had a virility in his voice that no one has probably ever matched. People whose opinion I respect have told me that Robert Merrill's middle voice was bigger than Warren's voice in the middle. Cornell MacNeil in his prime may have had a bigger overall voice than either of them.

[MrCafiero]

@legatofancier I know what you mean about Warren's sound. And I agree that Merrill's middle was definitely more focused and louder. For me, Warren always sang a bit "thick", unlike the other baritones mentioned. Their vowels are clear and ringing. I still have great respect and admiration for Warren. It was a tremendous voice. MacNeil in his prime is better in my opinion.

[MrCafiero]

@roselandalvin I don't believe everything someone says. I also have ears. Teaching and analysis of voice are definitely *NOT* opposing things. To the contrary, you MUST be able to analyze a voice extremely well to be able to teach. Warren was great, but he wasn't perfect. He had thickness in the sound which is caused by a girding of the tongue. He was still great. But other baritones didn't have that - including Ruffo.

[seektheforce]

@MrCafiero is this girding of the tongue sometimes referred to as a kinoerdle? sorry for spelling.

[halavey]

You don't really know if Ruffo had a bigger voice then warren unless you heard both in house. Records mean nothing volume wise I don't know Ruffo as i never heard him and with tenors bergonzi on record sounded bigger then say bjorling and yet neither one had really a BIG voice in house, i heard both in house Bergonzi may have sounded big on records but tucker and shicoff , di stefano, giacomini also had more heft. I heard di stefano in 59 with tebaldi--- del monaco same year in otello was big!

[sugarbist]

@halavey Be My Love.The best thing I can say is all3sound terrible&I'm a big Del Monaco fan.I think there is a huge advantage when an artist sings in his native tongue.It might have helped Mc Cormack mentally by changing his name to Foli, but I don't think he fooled anybody.I'm not disputing that there might have been prejudice against non-italian singers, but if one is good enough, it does surface as Tucker was very successful in Italy&elsewhere as well asBjorling,,Wunderlich,Jan Keipura. Enjoy

[halavey]

some people say warren had oatmeal in his mouth but for me he was the greatest verdi baritone, he could diminuendo sing piano and even tenor high C's, he was not always well liked by other singers but then so many where not. Merrill had the most beautiful baritone voice i ever heard in house but more lyric then warren, it was pretty big in house also but Ruffo for me has a more coarse sound, then warren so it's all opinion. Peerce heard him in 1932 I think he said, way past prime he told me.

[roselandalvin]

@halavey correct Ruffo as great as they say he was,couldn't carry Mr Warren's music -Ruffo's voice thinned out on top, he didn't have the control Warren had either--Nobody sang the vowels so full, with such power & ease as warren-People [there are a couple] like to pick on Warren because of his preeminent postion -To mention McNeil Ruffo Milnes in the same breath is folly-Merrill was great as was Tibbett- on any roster with Warren  any baritone would be or was forced to take a back seat FACT

[halavey]

I heard MDM in 59 do the role at la scala it was terrific and for me anyhow Warren had the greater sound then even Ruffo but then I never heard Ruffo in house or Warren. I just prefer Warren from what I have heard.

[MrCafiero]

Really? I much prefer Ruffo. It is bigger, freer and doesn't have the "girding" that Warren has.

[egymagyar1111111]

Cafiero thanks, we heard here a Warren inspired by MDM to have what I miss many other of his other recordings, do not interpret me badly Warren one of the greatest, and difficult to choose only one, bless you

[stevevandien]

Was this from the Met performance on 8 March 1958, with Victoria de los Angeles as Desdemona and Fausto Cleva conducting? Just curious, because I happen to have that recording:) --

[MrCafiero]

This is with Tebaldi and Votto.

[hgbrown20001]

@stevevandien Saw Warren, Vickers, and Tebaldi at the Old Met in this role! It makes me cry just remembering! And Solti was in the Pit! Zefferelli was just beginning to do sets at the Old Met at the time. "Un Bacio, un altro bacio" please just one more time!

[stevevandien]

@hgbrown20001 How fortunate you were! By chance, did you also see McCracken's Otello at the Old Met? If so, what did you think? Best, Steve

[billyguns2]

Del Monaco IMO was the greatest OTELLO of them all, and Warren one of the great Iagos. This is sensational! Where and when is this performance taking place?

[jmccracken1963]

Teatro alla Scala, Milan, in 1954. I have the complete performance on CD; it is all truly OUTSTANDING!!!!

[leadoffeohippus]

Wow I can't believe this even exists.

[DonPaolissimo]

UNBEATABLE!!! What a shame that RCA or London did not produce a recording of duets with these two vocal giants - Gioconda, Forza, Otello, et. al.

DonPaolo

[MrCafiero]

Unbeatable *EXCEPT* for the Ruffo?Caruso recording.

I do wish they would have recorded together more as well.

[crwv]

holy shit...

[operamandan79]

I'm so used to watching the milnes/giacomini version... this is equal as far as bad assedness is concerned. Thanks for this.

[stevevandien]

Oh, man. Caruso and Ruffo's version was the best, but this isn't far behind:) --

[69brancaleone]

Wonderful!