Seven Versions of the Quran?(Part.2-Is the Quran Corrupted?)

[AAAhmed46]

So the book with the refutations of the haters is the one displayed?

[ozzycda]

That is one of them, the other is Sciences of the Quran by Yasir Qaidi.

[MindMasters]

Ozzy the word is "Ahruf", pronounced as "Ahroof"

Peace

[ozzycda]

Haha thanks Mind you I realized that AFTER making the video...to late now..but better late then never as the saying goes.

[Mkvine]

So my question is, why do the hadith sources have additional words "at the beginning/commencement" than what we have in the Qur'an today? Are these hadith sources reliable? If not, why not? Were these additional words abrogated, if so is there any documentation from early Muslims that they were?

[ozzycda]

Interesting question, I would rather you ask someone who knows the Arabic of the Quran and Hadith in order to give you a better answer. But this will be my attempt at the sources I have. In Sahih Bukhari and the commentary for it, the Prophet pbuh in this SAME episode as recorded in Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu Dawud as you quoted, simply paraphrased and did not even QUOTE the verse word for word. Interesting that it is in Sahih Muslim and Abu Dawud that we have some sort of actual quotation cont.

[ozzycda]

cont. Now you asked are these Hadiths reliable, the ones in Sahih Muslim are for sure. I would be careful with Sunan Abu Dawud, some collections do contain Hadiths that might not have been considered Sahih by Bukhari or Muslim, and the collectors such as Abu Dawud would either have given his own verdict on the said Hadith if it was Authentic, doubtful, weak, etc. cont.

[ozzycda]

cont. You also asked Were these additional words abrogated, and if so is there documentation for this by early Muslims. Well like I said above if the original Arabic does not contain the word in 65:1 "beginning/commencement" then I assume that word WAS abrogated, since during the LAST Ramadan of the Prophet's life he and Gabriel recited the WHOLE Quran in the presence of literate companions and this established what was the format of the Quran and was abrogated and what was not. cont.

[ozzycda]

cont. As such, if those ONE WORD was abrogated, then it was indeed as seen by the final reciting of the Quran done by the Prophet pbuh, himself. So there is really no issue if a Hadith even contains a verse that WAS abrogated and by no means and issue if ONE word or phrase was as well. That is why we have the final reciting done by the Prophet pbuh to see what the format of the Quran was and what verses were not abrogated. Hope that answers the question.

[Mkvine]

Muhammad may have well revised all of the Qur'an with Angel Gabriel the last Ramadan. However, how can we know if those words "beginning/commencement" were indeed part of the final recitation of the Qur'an Muhammad did? Ibn Umar in the hadith, does quote this as being part of the Qur'an and he said this long AFTER Muhammad's final recitation. Moreover, we are assuming that the Qur'an we have today is the same as Muhammad's final recitation. cont...

[Mkvine]

Yes, if we follow the assumption that the Qur'an today is the same one as Muhammad's final recitation, then you could make a case for abrogation. However, we can't be sure (at least me) that "beginning/commencement" was or was not part of Muhammad's final recitation unless we have a pre-uthmanic quranic text that deals with this verse. That's why I asked if there's any documentation from early Muslim sources about that says that this verse has been abrogated.

[ozzycda]

The verse was not abrogated you are making a case about ONE WORD, not a VERSE. The verse was not abrogated, however Quran does not contain, at least from the translations I have, does not have that ONE WORD. However as I said in the Classical Arabic it could very well contain it.

[ozzycda]

See Islamic Awareness for information on the Quranic text we do have manuscripts that are predating the Uthamic ones and they are identical with the Uthmanic documents. That website along with the two textbooks I own and have mentioned in this new series all would be benefit you if you are interested in the textual transmission of the Quran.

[ozzycda]

Of corse Ibn Umar quotes the Prophet pbuh saying the verse like that because that event in the Hadith takes place BEFORE the final reciting of the Quran, so I don't see any issue with that. We as Muslims are not assuming anything we know that the Quran we have today is the Quran that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh recited that last Ramadan, that is not an issue for us at all.

[Mkvine]

Thanks for the response but I still have a few difficulties with your answer. You did say that in your commentary that Muhammad was paraphrasing, however, you also noticed that the hadith does actually use quotations. The hadith even says "recited the quranic verse." So that's a bit odd that the commentary would say Muhammad was paraphrasing, which you acknowledged as well.

[ozzycda]

I was referring to commentary done for the same episode mentioned in Sahih Bukhari which reads as the Prophet pbuh paraphrased and wasn't actually quoting the Quran. So that is why my response is giving you difficulty because I don't think you are seeing that I am referring to the Hadith but as it is worded in Sahih Bukhari and not Muslim or Abu Dawud as you quoted above.

[ozzycda]

I have spoken to Iqraproductions about this topic, and he made a video not on the verse in question but on the concept of the 7 Ahruf which discusses the idea that among the 7 Ahrufs there were sometimes words used that were not in the other Ahrufs, points of emphasis etc. All due to the nature of Classical Arabic. Do watch this video, which I will pm you, and if you have any questions, talk to him about it.

[Mkvine]

Alright thanks Ozzy. I will check this out and watch Iqraproductions' videos. I do apologize for generalizing quran 65:1 by saying "verse" instead of "word," since we are dealing with just one word. Just one more question, do you know the Sahih Bukhari reference that deals with Quran 65:1? Thanks

[ozzycda]

No problem and no need to apologize just wanted you to see my points more clearly but carefully reading what I was typing. The reference is from the Noble Quran translation and it is from Sahih Bukhari Vo.7, Hadith #178. Also if you watch Iqra's video and have questions please direct them to him, I have spoken with him about you and your questions, he has even invited you to Islamtalk on Stickam to further gain knowledge about this topic. So yeah I am passing you to him, enjoy :D

[Mkvine]

Hey Ozzy, great video. I actually have no problem with the different Ahruf of the Qur'an, I don't know why people use that as an argument. However, I do want you to address something in the Hadith sources. Firstly, this is what the Qur'an says - [Yusufali 65:1] "O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, " Now let's compare this verse to some readings in the Hadith...

[Mkvine]

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) said that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) then recited this verse:" O Apostle, when you divorce women, divorce them at the commencement of their prescribed period" Sahih Muslim Book 009, Number 3489

[Mkvine]

The Prophet (pbuh) recited the Qur'anic verse: O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them in the beginning of their waiting period." Sunan Abu Dawud Book 12, Number 2180

[jaed123]

Excellent !!! Masha Allah

[Ay0ubM]

Some of the things that people claim is completely idiotic.

Good video Collin, i learned a lot.. like usual :)

[psychlopes1976]

Just because the Quran speaks of the unseen and what appears to you to be the super natural doesn't mean its wrong, it just means you "haven't seen" the things its talking about. What's stupid is to accusing someone or something of being wrong, just because it speaks of things that you can't see or haven't personally experienced. you think Djinn aren't real, that's your prerogative. Just be objective enough to not act as if you have a proof that they don't exist , when you don't.

[dcfnfb]

Qur'an 2:6 "As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them."

[Ay0ubM]

I don't see how believing in an unseen thing (like the Jinns) is so hard to grasp...

If you told someone living 200 years ago about TV's or Phones they would think you are crazy and/or a complete idiot. For them the idea of communicating with someone across the world was completely understandable.

Islam is about believing in the unseen. For us the signs in the untouched Quran are enough to tell us Muslims that Islam is the only true religion.

[anythingss]

aaaaaaaas usual, a man who uses the thing that make us different than animals, a man who have a professional way of studying things, in this case religions, while a lot are just saying whatever works for their own desires, they actually close their eyes and block their brains from truth to get to it ! may allah direct them to the truth

[Kite208]

heehee

I have seen this book in my libary

[TRUTHOFISLAM]

5 stars

[muslim610]

Ozzy,good to have you back.Ramadan Kareem bro. Excellent video as always, peace.

[abdullahmilton]

I own that book, it is really good.