Does DNA evidence refute the Book of Mormon? 5 of 6

[McBird7]

I believe in the Bookof Mormon, but not the MesoAmerican model. Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about.

[kramd1]

July 2011 News flash. Post mormon DNA apology has Lehi arriving to an already populated new world. The voyage was an Atlantic sail boat crossing from NHM arriving in the Gulf to inhabiting what is now NY state. No contact whatsoever with the Mayans.

Does help explains the lack of Mayan culture and ziggurat building missing from the Book of Mormon.

The latest is that the Hopewell mound builders are the B of M peoples.

The Mesoamerican model is wrong.

[messianicreformer]

He said that the pattern could maybe be found. According to the book of Mormon the Lamenite population filled the whole lands of the Americas. This would mean that the majority of DNA of their descendants would have been "Semetic Genetic" - simple as that because no semetic genetic markers have been found whatsoever. This professor however, has done a good enough job to buy some time so that his constituents have enough doubt to continue to believe the Book of Mormon for now.

[kramd1]

wriggle and worm. A fruit fly expert explains why the dNA evidence should be discarded.

Side stepping, dribble.

[flyfisherX]

What is the quote from James E. Talmage he let the people read?

[sAME2U22]

I think that the Lamanites went extinct shortly after they annihilated the Nephites. (Probably from PTSD--tho, they wouldn't have know that.)

There is NO evidence of "Lamanites" (Isrealite decendants) anywhere---Just those damn Asians. Why in the hell did THEY have to come along and screw up a perfectly good story. Goddamn them, in the name of Joe Smith's Priestcraft.

[flyfisherX]

Obviuosly sAME2U22 you didn't even listen to a word he said.

They haven't ruined anything, and we have quotes back in 1927, and 1929 which cautioned members to think that the Native Amercians were only Isrealite descendents. They also said that the native americans will have Asian DNA. This was back in 1927 and 1929 before DNA was even a science. Looks like DNA is just catching up to what church leaders taught before.

Keep trying....

[hilariofalcon]

That proves they were Ninjas and not Indians. WAX ON WAX OFF!

[Outlaw1257]

There sHOULD be an easiy answer here, and LDS SHOULD be able to provide it.

Hill Cummorah was the site of not one, but TWO epochal battles at Hill Cummorah, which according to The LDS 1st presidency, THE SAME HILL CUMMORAH as spoken if in BoM.

There SHOULD be THOUSANDS of skeletal remains, which SHOULD contain the DNA of he Jerradites, Lamanites, AND the Nephites.

LDS will not conduct any excavations at Hill Cummorahbecause there is NOTHING there and they KNOW it!!

[flyfisherX]

Outlaw1257:

You might as well take out Jaredites in your debating thoughts concerning the Hill Cummorah. The Jaredites died off within 200 years of the the arrival of Lehi and his family. They weren't even around during the time of the great battle on the Hill Cummorah.

And there is no official statement in the Book of Mormon stating the Mulekites, intermingled genetics with the Jaredites. You are assuming when it comes to the Jaredites. Destroys your debate.

[Outlaw1257]

My understanding is that Hill Cummorah was the sight of not one, but TWO epochal battles, one did involve the (fictional)Jeredites.

Even if you are correct, though, that still does not explain LDS's refusal to excavate.

[flyfisherX]

Outlaw1257:

There were two great battles, one of the Nephites and Lamanites and one of the Jaredites (a civil war).

The Jaredite battle which ended their entire civilization is unknown as to it whereabouts. There are assumptions, but that is all they are. We only know that the last survivor of the Jaredites lived with the Mulekites and that was around 200 years after their arrival here.

Those are the only two great battles I am familiar with, there were a lot of little ones.

[revelations146]

FYI Outlaw, I doubt the Church is all that interested in excavating any location, or are they looking for the actual location. Robert Pate's book "Mapping the Book of Mormon" believes he has found the location of the hill Cumorah. It's located in Guatamala and the name of the hill today is Qumarkah. Coincidence that they sound the same? Qumarkah translated means: "rotten bones".

[Outlaw1257]

Revelations;

One way or another, LDS is going to strike out.

According to the First Presidency of LDS, the Hill Cumorah in NY is the same Hill Cummorah mentioned in BoM; but there is no evidence there.

As for Guatamala??

EXCAVATE!!.... then watch LDS Shillster, Inc. go into overdrive with more ambiguous qualifiers such as "plausible", may be" may someday prove to be", "does not necessarily disprove"...... or come up with more excuses for not excavating.

[revelations146]

Moroni buried the plates in NY because the Lord lead him to that location. It's not "According to the First Presidency of LDS" because they know it's not the original location. Like I told you, the Church will never excavate. WHY? What purpose would it serve? It wouldn't prove anything nor would it convert anyone. The cynics would come up with some excuse for discounting the archeological finding anyway. You'll never find enough physical evidence to satisfy you.

[revelations146]

One last thing Outlaw, I know how frustrated you are with this church. JS said that if he hadn't experienced the things himself he wouldn't believe it. To be converted to the LDS church takes faith and humility, not pessimism, pride, and anger. The whole intention of the anti-Mormon propaganda is to instill doubt, because if you doubt you can never have faith. Good luck to you.

[Outlaw1257]

Revelation;

I understand that belief in any organized religion requires some elements of faith;

Belief in the Bible requires some faith, and while I don't believe it to be infallible, there are indeed sciences that support it, as well as certain events registered in it.

the problen is that BoM can not be supported with ANY credible scientific evidence.

[Outlaw1257]

As far as AntiMormon "propaganda" is concerned, anything not graced with LDS's blessings is considered "AntiMormon".

Contrary to your assertion that it is designed to "instill doubt", there are glaring discrepancies in BoM which must be carefully scrutinized. Were there any truth to BoM, LDS would welcome such scrutiny.

Consider LDS's selective use of the truth; the teachings of Dallin Oaks, Robert Millet, and Hugh Fibbley exemplify LDS's willingness to deceive, sidestep & shade the truth.

[glycoboy]

you can prove the entire bible false by word of most current scholarship.. really, i've seen dozens of examples... the fact is, the book of mormon keeps looking better as the years go on.. if it were made up the exact opposite would occur. i spoke with a brilliant hebrewest over some non-denomination churches and he said that j.smith COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN MANY THINGS )***nahom**is the best example) and his answer was that the devil must have told him. nahom is a direct hit for physical evidence.

[Outlaw1257]

Not True, Glycoboy;

tHe physiological implications of THe Crucifixion reveal certain aspects of Human Anatomy and Physiology that were not understood at the time.

The Star of Bethlehem is also supported through astronomy. We saw the reappearance of tHe "star" in December of 1969.

[glycoboy]

i agree with you.. go look around and you'll see that there are many things in the bible that by your standards of 'scientific evidence' aren't true... i still choose to believe God over science and so should you. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. the evidence of things not seen. how helpful would it be for it to be completely obvious with your eyes that the lds church was true? it wouldn't help you cause it'd be too convenient. how would u ever learn to rely on god?

[Outlaw1257]

Glycoboy Wrote:

"...go look around and you'll see that there are many things in the bible that by your standards of 'scientific evidence' aren't true... i still choose to believe God over science and so should you."

That's right, Glycoboy!!

Who needs science when we have The Talking Snake Theory, stories of talking donkeys, people being turned into pillars of salt, and stories of a "prophet" who stared at magic rocks in his hat ??

[LDSapologist71]

Outlaw1257,

Last thing he will ever do is rely on God. He is a proven anti mormon troll.

[canadianbacon007]

The bible is not supportable by any evidence that PROVES Gods exists. The biblical scriptrues are all facsimilies of one sort or antother.

[canadianbacon007]

On the other hand if irrefutable evidence came out to support thr BofM, it would totally take faith out of the equation regarding Jesus Christ, because of the pre Cristian revelations about Him in the book. Just like if the ark of the covenant with the original ten commandments were found, the Jews would find their faith vindicated, and faith would be blown out vof the water as well for them and Christians too, for that matter.

[canadianbacon007]

No signature copies of Matt, Mark, Luke, or John, have been found, ever wonder why? Not going to happen. Try wrapping your head around that, and you get a different picture of why God in His wisdom decided to keep the BofM a matter of faith for the most part. BTW there is evidence that I believe is there probably for the purpose of keepnig the wolves at bay, so some faithful Saints don't get swallowed up the deluge of anti mormon rhethoric.

[canadianbacon007]

The bible is not supportable by any evidence that PROVES Gods exists. The biblical scriptrues are all facsimilies of one sort or antother.

[Outlaw1257]

CB;

I have never argued that The Bible proves the existence of "God". As a NonChristian, I see the "god" described in tHe Bible as being a demmented, co-dependent entity.

[glycoboy]

moroni likely placed the b.o.m. near joseph smith's house in palmyra.... down in guatamala must be where all of mormon's records were stored along with the b.o.m. but moroni took it to palmyra for joseph to find.. two hills. anyway, matthew brown is finishing a 300 page book on this topic.. he'll answer your question

[Outlaw1257]

What a piss poor excuse!!

Do you have ANY credible, objectively reviewed evidence to support your claim??

Or is Moroni now the Easter Bunny??

[glycoboy]

bro, deep breath, relax, and then imagine yourself in any other time period when technology wasn't quite like it is today. how do you suspect Christ would answer your question regarding tangible evidence? no, really, how would any apostle or disciple of Christ answer your questions thousands of years ago? would they scramble to find proof so that you could conveniently believe? no!!! 'and you know it!' thats not the route the Lord works. may he have mercy on your soul and lead you to truth

[Outlaw1257]

Nice attempt to sidestep, but you dance around the fact that there is credible evidence to support some some elements of the Bible, yet there is NO credible evidence to support BoM.

[cezza57]

mormons are very good at sidestepping.

whenever you watch mormon videos they have NOTHING to prove but instead AVOID

[Outlaw1257]

Cezza57:

LDS Apologist's "evidences" are always shrouded in such ambiguous qualifiers as "plausible", "may possibly be", might someday prove to be", does not necessarily disprove", as well as the time worn "absence of proof is not necessarily equal proof of absence".

Then, when they attempt to play the Mormon Truth Shell Game, and you refute them with the writings in the "LDS Urinal of Miscourses", or quote the words of their leaders, they lame out with the "taken out of context" excuse.

[cezza57]

Outlaw, you couldn't of said it any better!!

[melonbarmonster]

Hey retard claiming that American Indians came from Israel is a testable hypotheiss. There's a difference between claiming supernatural miracles or things untestable by science with claims that are very easily testable.

[Outlaw1257]

The claim that Native Americans are descendants of the Jews is patently absurd.

What self-respecting "Jewish" Indian would have sold Manhatten for a mere 25 bucks??

[flyfisherX]

Outlaw1257:

The excavation doesn't need to happen on the Hill Cumorah alone. Remember, it was a great battle where around 100 thousand people fought. The Hill Cummorah is not a very big hill is it now? So with that many people fighting they probably just didn't fight on the hill.

They don't need to dig up a historical site, just have the scientist dig up a vacant field, around there or one of the residents backyard close to the hill. Same results will be found.

[Outlaw1257]

Flyfisher;

I have no trouble with your position here, but if LDS believed there was anything there, they would have conducted an excavation decades ago.

Affordability is not an issue; LDS has plenty of money with which to buy forged documents and shopping malls, and Mr. Marriot had plenty of money to send Thomas Furguson to Central America to conduct archaeological excavations.

The problem is that LDS KNOWS that there is nothing there.

[flyfisherX]

Outlaw1257:

"LDS KNOWS that there is nothing there" is an assumption pure and simple.

If you want to believe that than that is your right and if you feel logically that is the case. We all must discern for ourselves truth vs error.

However, to say such, is pure assumption. I could easily say "they don't need to dig because they know it is there." Again, but that would be pure assumption.

Good to hear from you, best, and have a great day!

[Outlaw1257]

Thanks, Flyfish!!

Just FYI: I want to let everyone who may follow this discussion know that Fly is a good person; we've had some interesting exchanges via PM, and although we disagree, hie is a person of true class.

[Outlaw1257]

As far as assumptions are concerned, Fly, I'm going to have to disagree. LDS has spent money on archaeological digs; they have turned up nothing.

LDS has everything to gain by conducting excavations at Cummorah, or the land around it. Consider the impact; just as the sciences may not prove The Bible to be true, they DO lend to credibility in certain parts of it.

To find solid evidence to support the BoM story would give great credibility to it. LDS could, but will not excavate.

[Outlaw1257]

As for the notion of assumptions on my part. BoM states that HC was the sight of not one, but two epochal battles. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; thus far, LDS has offered none.

LDS will not excavate HC, and for good reason; that's why Mobot Apologist have contrived the "Different Hill Cummorah" excuse, although The First Presidency of LDS has stated emphatically that Hill Cummorah in Palmyra, New York is the SAME Cummorah referenced in The Book of Mormon.

[flyfisherX]

Outlaw1257:

Thanks Outlaw!  I was caught offguard by your generosity. My sentiments exactly in reverse. To my fellow LDS, if you seek to understand Outlaw you also will see a man of character and passion, fiery passion.

Thanks again Outlaw, not sure how deserving i am of such compliments, however God bless you in all the commendable and respectable desires of your heart.

[hilariofalcon]

Has any trace of Jewish DNA ever been found on an Amerindian? From anywhere in the America's. Even if DNA isnt 100% accurate wouldnt someone keep testing for that small trace? Has Mongoloid dna been found? Is it more than a trace?

[Outlaw1257]

Hilariofalcon;

To answer your question; No! No DNA connection between The Israelites and The AmerIndians have ever been found to exist.

[hilariofalcon]

Thank you very much Mr. 1257. No dna, archeological or Scriptural evidence. Oh yea , The Ghost (they say angel) of a person that supposedly LIVED with the Nephites. We have his testimony.But then we would be guilty of conversing with a familiar spirit, something thats forbidden in the Bible. Nephites, neophites?, laymen, lamanites? Not very creative names huh?

[Outlaw1257]

Hilario;

Actually, there is VERY compelling evidence to support the existance of The lamanites!!

Their decendents went from being 'an idle people, filled with mischief". to becoming crafters of counter tops and flooring materials.

Haven't you ever heard of LAMANITE FLOORING??

DDUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!

[MormonDefenders]

You would be wrong on this. Actually a connection has recently been found. I am posting it on my next video.

[sAME2U22]

Really, MD? Instead of posting your find on YouTube, send the info to Smithsonian or National Geographic or Harvard--you know, someplace where this truly earth-shaking revelation can be fully appreciated. If it's only worthy of a YouTube posting, it's gotta be pretty lame.

[flyfisherX]

Hilariofalcon:

Scripturally Angels (not ghosts) have come to man/woman to explain and fortell.

So, when Mary was visited by the Angel to tell her she would have the Messiah was that a "familiar spirit" forbidden. Wait Joseph had a similar experience which decided that he should still marry Mary.

Creative names...lol, is that how you discern truth? Hello...?

Wow, looks like it is biblical that God can send his Angels. As Joseph with the Angel Moroni.

Keep trying...LOL