Syndicalism is antithetical to Anarchism (Bookchin)

[RadioFreeWisconsin]

Perhaps not the unions we have now. These beuracratic and authoritarian unions need to be replaced with more revolutionary and representative ones. One idea: there should be no fixed leaders in the union and all delegates should be routinely rotated. The state destroyed all the true revolutionary unions like the IWW.

[musicalidea]

What do you call this form of politics:

1. All workplaces should be some form of a worker cooperative, with varying forms of charters, but with the common principle of post-pay profit distributed to workers as dividend bearing stocks, whether equally or unequally apportioned. Bonds would be allowed but non-worker owned stock would be limited.

2. There should be conventional representative government - but with some notable changes, among them: A) proportional voting. B) unicameral legislature.

[alhabbo]

dude, we aint gonna ur tools! wtf! u can have ur tools, i guarantee you that

[razchaoten]

you use the failings of buerocratised, reformist unions as an argument against anarchosyndicalism. Thats like saying you hate apples, so people shouldnt eat oranges Have you looked into the history of the IWW, or the CNT, have you ever actively engaged with any of the member federations of the IWA? You will not find greater hatred for mainstream unions than amongst genuine anarcho syndicalists.

Can you not use collectively owned tools? can you not organise redistribution through consensus?

[Grindermetalhead]

You're equating hierarchical, bureaucratic unions with anarchist unions that are non-hierarchical and egalitarian.

Unions form purely out of necessity to oppose exploitation.

When workers in a factory are being exploited and oppressed it is only natural for them to organize and stand up to the oppression. It is nothing more than a bunch of individuals who all share common misfortune uniting against a common oppressor. It's not an exclusive club but a grassroots movement.

[frostynorth]

From my viewing of the video, I think you're confusing syndicalists' views of unionism, and business/regulatory unionism. Or at least, you're inflating business unionism to say that it represents all unions. Syndicalism doesn't just say everyone should join a union then bring down the current order with a general strike. It has a specific vision of what a union's internal organization should be, and what you describe (especially regarding subservience to labour laws) is not it.

[utubenotgoodasgvideo]

Sure unions can suck, but they don't have to be. The IWW lets you stay in no matter where you work or if you are unemployed. As long as you are not a boss, you can be a member. You vote for all major legislation directly and all officers and delegates can be recalled by referendum. It has a pretty good balance of the efficiency of representation and the democracy of consensus. This is the closest thing we have to a syndicalist union in North America.

[musicalidea]

@utubenotgoodasgvideo Yeah, but these idiots still haven't caught on to the fact that they should have - from the start - been building an economy of worker coops via some kind of investment organ, versus JUST begging the masters to treat them fairly via walkouts, slowdowns, pickets & strikes. If Labor Unions - grassroots (like IWW) or hierarchical (like SEIU & AFL-CIO) - would have funded ESOPs & co-ops, such as those in The American Fed of Worker Coops, we'd be a lot further along than we are.

[utubenotgoodasgvideo]

@musicalidea Actually, at this point the IWW has more job shops that are workers coops than job shops that are conventional boss owned companies under contract. The IWW has been a huge sponsor of workers' self manged businesses. Red Emma's in Baltimore. Just Coffee in Madison. Mystery Street Recording in Chicago. Red and Black Cafe in Portland. ETC...

[musicalidea]

@utubenotgoodasgvideo I wonder if any of them are part of the Amer. Fed. of Worker Coops. However, they should have set up a charity/investment organ to fund the est of more worker coops & ESOP plans. No one is going to give us equity w/in the Corporatist version of the Global Bureaucratic Informatic Industrial Capitalist system just because we beg them to with protests, strikes & rallies: they massacre millions of innocents 4 profit. We must slowly build equity 4 ourselves via concerted means.

[bjarczyk]

Yeah but he wasn't an individualist, draganot stops the clip at the beginning before he says what he really believes (at this time at least).

It's taken out of context. Bookchin was describing what anarchism WAS to CERTAIN PEOPLE, not himself. And it's not to say that individualist anarchism is/was totally dominant. Just because an ideology was popular at a certain time, or in a specific way, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the valid or correct one.

[yeahwotevaman]

Your last comments re: libertarian communists is a big a strawman as what many people from that side make of market anarchism. Considering that you have Zerzan videos I'm suprised you have so much venom for 'non-propetarian' anarchists.

[yeahwotevaman]

A good recent example of this is the Ford/Visteon occupation in Enfield, North London that happened pretty spontanously after the people their realised they were being laid off with five minutes notice and no compensation whatsoever. Their union talked them out of continuing the occupation before any demands had even been met. Unfortunately they listened to them.

[yeahwotevaman]

I hear you re:labour unions. They have a long history of selling out and are for all intents and purposes another arm of the state. In Britain for example the Trades Union Congress had patronised the Labour Party for decades (only breaking with them fairly recently). The point I think is for workers to form their own combinations that bypass this beaurocracy. Unfortunately the majority of workers are used to defering to the established unions and their concern with 'legitimacy'.

[freethinker17]

I recommend reading anthropologist David Graeber 's book "Possibilities" which contains a long essay explaining the history and evolution of what we now call democracy. perhaps if i ever start making videos on you tube i'll make one about this subject.

[freethinker17]

anarcho-synidcalists and other left wing anarchists are not "obsessed" with democracy, we merely see it as required for a more participatory and equitable social order.Its very untrue to say that democracy is always a form of government. For reasons that are far to complex to explain in the comments section on you tube, the traditional narrative about democracy is inacurate.

[comradepinko]

"A union can be just as bad and just as corrupt as management."

Can't any group or individual be just as corrupt as management?

It seems like you're making too broad a generalization from poor experiences with one union. I'd also suggest that left anarchists/syndicalists would probably not promote anything that looks like most major unions in America today.

[freethinker17]

its certainly true that unions are often flawed and very bureaucratic but I think the assemblies syndicalist advocate and modern American major unions are two different things. Also I think the basic idea of giving giving impoverished workers more agency is pretty good.

[freethinker17]

but at the end of the video of Bookchin goes on to advocate a gradual movement in which a new more equitable anarchist social order would be established and the running of townships by democratic assemblies similar to those of early puritan society. so he really didn't goes back on anything he said.

[thorsmitersaw]

Why are syndies so obsessed with democracy? What does it take to make someone realize that democracy is STILL a form of government.

Unless the 'democracy' only applied its decisions and edicts to the lives and properties of those who explicitly consent to association with the democracy would it be legitimate. But at this point, with legal positivism removed, and consent being primary, its no longer a democracy.

[Irtidad]

So the 1936 Spanish Revolution didn't happen? hmm, interesting.

[pacfilm]

Hey, re: V-log...  Why would we be offended?

[Darganot]

I didn't want to take the piece out of context or try to make it seems like Brookchin was saying something he really wasn't. This is a fairly contentious issue in the community, as everyone tries to claim their shade of anarchism is the "right" one.

I'm using the video to make a point that I wasn't sure was intended, but was my subjective interpretation. I didn't want to use your work in a way you didn't intend.

It's your labor, after all. :-D

[pacfilm]

Yes, but I think by taking this old bit of celluloid (which, admittedly, we filmed) and creating dialog, albeit contentious, you've created a framework for examination, provocation and deconstruction... So, while it may have been our labor,it's somewhat dead labor, needing revival and resurrection...

[toesandumbrellas]

the anarchist faq at infoshop(dot)org articulates a very good distinction between possession and property - possession denotes active, regular use and things you need, whereas property denotes something you don't use that someone else needs - i agree that many unions are bureaucratic, authoritarian and representative instead of directly participatory and non-hierarchically inclusive, which is what we want, but without unions, we would not have the minimum wage or the 40 hour work week, etc.

[toesandumbrellas]

bookchin was actually criticizing anarchism in that video, not praising individualism - he renounced anarchism in later life and founded his own thingies which he called "libertarian municipalism" and "communitarianism" cos he was so fed up with his years of anarchist infighting with people like zerzan and bob black

[toesandumbrellas]

communalism*, not communitarianism - my bad

[Darganot]

Well, Zerzan is off the deep end - even I as a budding primitivist will admit that. Most domesticated animals CHOSE to live with us. Certain crops like corn also wouldn't be around if humans didn't plant them every year. Zerzan also forgets that things like levers and hinges are, in fact, machines. I do like his criteque of civilization and thoughts on how people should live.

btw - "we would not have"? You move to the states or something? :-P

You should make videos if you can, toes.

[toesandumbrellas]

i've lived there,yeah. i live in the uk now though,and we have unions. i like zerzan, too, but derrick jensen's better- doesn't criticize things like language and stuff, which is just crazy. you should read endgame-or watch his vids on googlevideo. marshall sahlins and jared diamond, too. i don't have a camera, i've never even owned a computer- trying not to support the coltan industry, which not only destroys the habitat of gorillas, but fuels a war in the congo that's killed over 4 mill people

[Darganot]

Yea as a hacker all my life after seeing what it takes to make this stuff I'll never buy another new computer or any piece of hardware.  Well, I'll try not to at least, what can I say I like video games. And after seeing the scenes in South Asia of what happens when this stuff is just thrown out has me holding on to every piece of hardware, even stuff that doesn't work. My apt is a mess of computer crap lol. I basically take people's old machines and mix and match working parts.

[toesandumbrellas]

ever heard of freegeek? look em up, you'll like em

[Darganot]

I will, thanks. Ready for round two on that chomsky vid?

[toesandumbrellas]

well, i wasn't trying to argue - but i've come across a lot of these ancap people and i've never liked any of them. i don't have a huge problem with indies anymore, but capitalism is just too far, since i define anarchism as an attempt to minimize hierarchy, and capitalism is intrinsically hierarchical. i had a huge and boring flame war with one on this vid you can go to called "anti-capitalist anarchist in all of us pt. 2" - i just thought it was clever about dejacque's "property rights"

[Darganot]

I was just jesting. Like I said in the other post I actually get something out of our debates unlike when I talk to most other lefty anarchists. I also put more stock in your point of view since you grew up with the real deal, you know how it works first hand. You also actually address the points that have been posed to you. I liked the IP cut, I had said something about it in my first comment but wound up rewriting it.

btw - did John Lennon really have a temp controlled fur coat room?

[toesandumbrellas]

yeah, he did! how crazy is that? i read that in an article criticizing his song, imagine, where he says "imagine no possessions"

[bjarczyk]

also it's bookchin, and he wrote a book called social anarchism vs lifestyle anarchism. in that video you were playing he wasn't really complimenting the indivdualist aspect. it appears that he really didn't change his mind. i think you might be misunderstanding that.

[Darganot]

I'll admit the video is confusing, but I've watched it many times over the past year and I'm convinced he was in fact saying "Anarchism was an individual philosophy". He also goes on to talk about New England town hall meetings, something you never hear form the so-called social anarchists. The only ones talking about that are us indies and maybe some of the far left democratic populists.

[yeahwotevaman]

Bookchin rejected anarchism altogether towards the end of his life.

[bjarczyk]

how about the IWW? no exclusiveness or bureaucracy there.

of course it is uncaring to management, because the working class and the employing class have nothing in common.

what about the revolution in argentina? or spain in 1936?

you don't need a state. have you read kropotkin's ideas on anarcho-communism?

[Darganot]

I'll admit I have not read Kropotkin, if you have a good place for me to start with him I'd be happy to check his writings out.

But the IWW? You live in the states, so hopefully you know how non-union workplaces feel about worker opposition. As soon as you try to organize, employers have no reason to work with you - you've declared yourself as being opposed to them. Why should they work with you? Especially with the stigma the IWW carries, working for a boss that cares is much simpler.

[Darganot]

I don't mean to badger you, but I'm also not familiar with argentina. Of course I know about the Spanish Civil war and what happened, honestly I'm damn proud of the video I have about it. That 10 mins is from a 6 part series on the conflict, and that bit was really the only part where they talked about the anarchists at length.

I don't mean to belittle them by any means, but to say that the example can be used both ways. The whole "work hour dollars" thing is hard to sustain.

[toesandumbrellas]

watch the naomi klein film "the take" on googlevideo for what happened in argentina