Carlo Gesualdo: "Aestimatus sum..." from Sabbato Sancto

[clauclau33]

Extraordinary word painting.

[baroqueman1]

Oh, the pain and beauty of it all!

[Ernthir]

Its beautifull how each word is sung in the harmony that describes the word.

[NiallMS]

I could listen to Gesualdo until the cows come home!

[snufkin789]

Just listen to the last four pieces of sabbato sancto. it is truly a descent into the frowzy vault of a torn soul. i almost cannot bear the effects of this stone-could yet utterly genious craftsmanship. he indeed must have been haunted by demons.

thanks for uploading

[ANTOONMAKA]

SUPERBE! et en latin pour les non anglos

pratiquants de la langue...

[dolphinboy13204]

uhhhmmmm.....oohhkkaayyy thhnnxxxxxxx

:/

[skeenarinka]

Beautful.  Please correct Latin: descendentibus in lacum. A syllable has been omitted

[Ramatganski]

Thank you - I will point this out in the info for the video.

[Phorquieu]

Brilliant work ; Ramatganski, the video, the music, and poor, jealous Gesualdo, not least, are to be commended.

[wrarmatei]

Something to keep in mind with artists in general can be borrowed from Pope's Essay on Criticism: judge an artist's work based on its merit, not the artist who produced it (though he says it in couplet form) .

[janeym]

What a sad story behind this incredible music. I think it is the power of the ending on "Liber!" that moves me so much because it makes me think of redemption. We are blessed to be able to listen to this music.

[moxomniac]

genial... If ever I make filmscoring, Gesualdo will be my master... I agree with "who needs instruments, when he could compose such things for voice" all of the emotions can be expressed.

[Servatia]

Agreed, if you can write for voices, who needs instruments? *drools*

[dinmolle]

i wish he had lived a little later, so he could write music with all kinds of instruments and sounds.

[suffiice]

I dont, this is perfect

[shaerens]

Nah man, the voice is the perfect instrument.

[faunflynn]

Well he only killed his wife and her lover and he was consumed by grief and guilt for the rest of his life.

Employing a servant to beat him...'at stool.'

pretty demeaning but we got this music as a side effect.

Was it worth it ? Who can say. It is very very moving.

Thanx for the post.

[agehanokimi]

Lovely, I have adored Gesualdo for years.

He may have been "mad, bad and dangerous to know", to misuse a quote, but he created some of the most sublime, powerful, moving and beautiful music I know of.

[ianswilliams]

wow

these lyrics seem to come straight off a dimmu borgir song

[1990eternal]

lol

[majorhoop]

sorry epn---i had no intention of tearing anything apart.....

seems like this youtube comment format always winds up the same way....

once again sorry and thanks for the info!

[epn10]

Thanks, and I have sort of a new outlook on Gesualdo's position in the Italian music scene of the early 17th century. He was at the forefront of a group of innovative composers - Monteverdi, d'India, Luzzaschi - who created music that pushed beyond the boundaries of the Renaissance. They created hybrid pieces that blended smooth polyphony with expressive use of dissonance and chromaticism, easing the shift into Baroque. Who's to say what Gesualdo might have composed if he'd lived beyond 1613?

[epn10]

At any rate, the unusual and moving Tenebrae should stand as evidence of his mastery of music as an expressive device. I stand by my belief that he should not be reduced to an "exploiter" of Mannerist techniques; he was a brilliant composer who created pieces of extraordinary power and beauty - and, dammit, I love listening to them! (I enjoy Palestrina as well, but for different reasons.)

I plan on listening up on Monteverdi & other developers of the unique "Seconda Prattica."

[epn10]

This is a very good recording, by the way. Just thought I should point that out. (Although I find Hilliard Ensemble's version more engaging.)

[majorhoop]

sheesh.......here i was actually learning some things before it turned into the typical youtube pissing contest.......

1) words are neither mature nor immature; theyre words--"dude" and "cool" are fine in this context

2) what the hell is "shiznit"? some kind of cute euphemism? use the word or dont

broccoli---- did you see the guys video response to this? can we have a constructive critique?

[epn10]

Okay, okay....I thought wcbroccoli was trying to be funny, so Idecided to make a joke. That's why I chose to use phrases like "brohan" and "shiznit" and call him and "old viol player." He's 32 - that's not old. I was just joking around!

[epn10]

But it added nothing to the conversation , so I will graciously remove it.

[epn10]

And if I could remove my video response, I would, seeing as you guys are apparently planning to tear it apart...SHEESH!

Majorhoop, you can find free scores (in the form of .pdf files) for many of Gesualdo's compostions in the Choral Public Domain Library (just type it into google...apparently I can't post urls on here).

[wcbroccoli]

What mainstream did you have in mind?

Who were they?

17 yr. olds shopping for madrigals in Italian Renaissance music stores?

[epn10]

Dude.....not cool.

[epn10]

I agree that my use of "mainstream" was incorrect. I'm aware that there was no "mainstream" at the time (although public performances started coming into vogue at the court of Ferrara). But Gesualdo was undeniably outside the musical fold of the time...even considering the avante-garde circle at Ferrara. He was the El Greco of music.

[wcbroccoli]

I'm not trying to goad you into anything.

And I'm not the one who uses mature words like "dude" and "cool".

And we are having an intelligent conversation of Gesualdo right here.

I play in viols consorts. Gesualdo madrigals sound good on viols. But so do Monteverdi madrigals and Palestrina masses. That's all I'm saying.

[wcbroccoli]

Sorry. I should have said

17 year old *dudes* shopping Italian Renaissance music stores for the *coolest* new madrigals.

[clavecin88]

Gesualdo's style takes 16th. century counterpoint to its limits without totally abandoning the rules. He telescopes the timing of dissonance, piling one upon another in close proximity. Check out Byrd, Monteverdi, Marenzio and Nenna.

Gesualdo set a trap for his wife and her lover after having them followed and spied on, then ordered others to kill them. His contemporaries suggest that he might have been justified, but should have killed them himself. (see Glenn Watkins' book - Gesualdo)

[wcbroccoli]

What do you mean "Be warned! This piece, however beautiful, can get quite depressing - describing the descent into the tomb and oblivion."

Do you think Gesualdo composed the words in a fit of personal angst?

The words are from a psalm.

Many composers of his time set these words (e.g., Victoria).

The words are part of the Tenebrae services of Holy Week, you pagans!

LOL

[epn10]

Yes, but prior composers did not venture to infuse their settings with such intense emotion. This is essentially a sacred madrigal.

The Tenebrae Responsories were published towards the end of Gesualdo's life (1611), by which time he had descended far into the depths of melancholia. It's possible that Gesualdo identified with Christ's suffering to some extent - thus this highly personal (and affecting) interpretation.

By the way, check out my video response!

[majorhoop]

thanks for the tip re: best available gesualdo cds!......and your speculation about gesualdos possible identification w/christs suffering certainly sounds reasonable.....

[wcbroccoli]

Everyone in Gesualdo's time identified with Christ's suffering to some extent.

That why they called themselves "Christians."

[majorhoop]

i believe that associating gesualdos mental state (though we can only speculate) with his somewhat unique and, apparently for its time, extreme use of dissonance is reasonable. to cite a literary example, reading ezra pounds "pisan cantos" with no consideration of his circumstances or mental state would be very limiting.......

[wcbroccoli]

But other madrigal composers of Gesualdo's time also did this. Were they all depressed? If they did it to a lesser extent, was it because they were less depressed than he was?

You have your theory.

I have mine:

Gesualdo was influenced by the most avant-garde musical trends in madrigal writing in his day, and, unlike most other composers, his considerable wealth

gave him the freedom to write anything he pleased and the means to hire singers and instrumentalists to perform it.

[majorhoop]

once again i will ask that my ignorance in this field be noted. is it your suggestion that other composers, given the artistic freedom that wealth provides (a very poundian subject!), would have composed work similar to his? is he not as unique as most people ive read consider him? in what contexts were his contemporaries using dissonance (in other words, in order to express what emotions?)? thanks for your time.............

[wcbroccoli]

As I said, he was influenced by the most avant-garde musical trends in madrigal writing in his day. That influence, coupled with the freedom his wealth provided, enabled him to write and perform whatever he pleased in the mannered style he favored.

But he did what other madrigal composers of his time and place did: He set the characteristically coded Italian Renaissance love poetry of the day to music.

Courtly love songs of a much earlier period were also quite mannered.

[epn10]

Yes, it is entirely true that he surrounded himself with the latest avante-garde musical stylings during his stay in Ferrara...Luzzaschi being a main influence . However, it must be considered that the dissonance and EXTENSIVE use of cross relations in the 5th/6th books make Luzzaschi's compostions appear tame in comparison. Gesualdo's compositions are contrasted with those of his mannerist contemporaries on the Concerto Italiano cd I recommended; I'd suggest checking it out.

[epn10]

Gesualdo utlilized dissonance to color entire passages, and took word painting to the extreme. Such tachnical experimentation can certainly be ascribed to his wealth/artistic freedom...but doesn't that also imply that he was free to create music that reflected his artistic instincts? What you're suggesting is that art is not reflective of the artist...Gesualdo was melodramatic, obsessive, and manic-depressive! He chose the madrigal as his sole means of expression.

[maryjivinjane]

Beautiful! Thanks for posting it.

[majorhoop]

i know nothing about this kind of music (baroque madrigal is it?) but just from listening it appears to me that gesualdo descended (probably unwillingly) into the depths of his personal hell and managed to craft a beauty that didnt celebrate but rather transcended personal fuckups.  this stuff sends me.

any recommendations for cds to get?

[wcbroccoli]

Let's not get carried away with romantic fantasies about a supposed personal hell that supposedly colored Gesualdo's music

This kind of mannered word painting was not unusual for madrgialists of the late Renaissance, though Gesualdo is an extreme example.

[majorhoop]

lol.....yeah.....i see it more as a t.s.eliot/modernist attempt to escape personality rather than indulge in its quirks. but i get your point. & thanks for the info. what made gesualdo extreme?

[wcbroccoli]

The Prince was influenced by the most avant-garde musical trends in madrigal writing in his day, and, unlike most other composers, his considerable wealth

gave him the freedom to write anything he pleased and the means to hire singers and instrumentalists to perform it.

[epn10]

Hilliard Ensemble, "Tenebrae"

Concerto Italiano, "O dolorosa gioia"

The best available!

[sexbrain]

Gorgeous. This is how I feel.

[burkedevlin67]

"One is limiting art much too severely when one demands that only the composed soul, suspended in moral balance, may express itself there. ...there is in music and poetry the art of the ugly soul...and in achieving art's mightiest efforts—breaking souls, moving stones, and humanizing animals---perhaps that very art has been most successful."

-Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

[frankvista]

Really, that was one philosopher that interpreted art so well that he is my favorite philosopher.

[wcbroccoli]

What does this music have to do with ugly souls?

Here's another equally bizarre quote from F. Nietsche:

"In Bach there is too much crude Christianity, or Germanism, crude scholasticism. He stands at the threshold of European music, but he is always looking back toward the Middle Ages."

[yumunja]

@burkedevlin67

Brilliant, brilliant comment.

[lezvarthok]

I think this piece is one of the best songs ever written on exactly what there is to read, thank you very much for the translation , it absolutely fits. In fact I feel proud and touched while listening to it.

[myyellowshirt]

Wagner, then Bruckner got stuff from this genius.

[jthunder2525]

Gesualdo was the king of dissonance. He created "new music" as in he changed it completely in the 50 years after Palestrina. He's extremely artistic. Check out "Dolcissima mia vita," the piece starts consonant then goes dissonant it's wonderful!

[wcbroccoli]

What are you talking about?

Palestrina (1525-1594) and Gesualdo (1560-1613) were contemporaries.

Gesualdo's style is merely an extreme example of mannerist word painting of the late Renaissance madirgalists.

Gesualdo didn't change anything. He was completely forgotten until the 20th c.

It was Palestrina's style, or the ideal of it, that was studied by generations of later musicians, e.g., Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven.

[wcbroccoli]

You quote me out of context.

When I said he didn't change anything I was speaking of his influence on his contemporaries and later generations.

It was Palestrina's style, not Gesualdo's, that was studied by generations of composers after him, including Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven.

Fux's "Gradus ad Parnassum" was about Palestina's counterpoint, not Gesualdo's.

Bach's music library included works of Palestrina and many other composers, but nothing of Gesualdo.

[wcbroccoli]

"Moro, lasso, al mio duolo,..."

( "I die, alas, in my suffering,...")

Pain, suffering, death, dying & burning -- code words for sex or sexual desire -- were common topics of madrigals of the time.

Gesualdo was neither the 1st nor the only composer of his age to use "cross-relations & unexpected harmonic shifts"

to convey the meaning of the code words (NOT to "convey emotion", as you so naively put it.)

Even Monteverdi, who was fairly conservative, did this in his own madrigals.

[epn10]

Talk about semantics! Those "code words," as you call them, could also be termed "emotional buzzwords." This music was meant to be emotionally affecting, end of story. Gesualdo conveyed that masterfully.

[wcbroccoli]

Gesualdo is doing what other composers of his time were doing: setting coded Italian Renaissance love poetry to music.

Here's a translation of his "Moro, lasso, al mio duolo":

I die, alas, in my suffering,

And she who could give me life,

Alas, kills me and will not help me.

O sorrowful fate,

She who could give me life,

Alas, gives me death.

This is code for "he's dying to get into her pants, but she won't let him." Very affecting. LOL

[epn10]

Yes, the words are melodramatic. Yes, others composers used word painting. But this is precisely what Gesualdo excelled at: taking such unoriginal, dull verse and making it thrive with emotion (pardon my naivete). The way I hear it, Gesualdo didn't care for the lusty, erotic undertones; he went for the suffering. The fact that modern listeners such as myself cringe at the shocking close of "Dolcissima mia vita" stands as testament to Gesualdo's finesse with the evocation of anguish.

[epn10]

And no, I am not saying that Gesualdo's contemporaries were "less depressed" than he was. I agree that his extreme use of chromaticism can be partially attributed to his wealth and status. However, to suggest that Gesualdo's choice to write extreme music did not reflect his extreme personality...well, that's just absurd! It was a personal choice just as much as it was an artistic one.

[wcbroccoli]

His techniques are nothing new, even for his time and place. Cross relations, tritones, chromatic scales, dissonant suspensions that don't resolve down... he didn't invent any of that.

He simply exploited these things more than most.

Some people like a little spice in their food. Some like a lot. Does using a lot of spice make a better chef?

BTW, French Renaissance composers of a much ealier period were setting courtly love songs in an even more mannered style than Gesualdo's.

[epn10]

Which composers? I'm very curious. I'd like to hear them.

[wcbroccoli]

I can't recall the specific composers. I think they were contemporaries of Dufay. I was thinking of some songs I heard on an old recording conducted by David Munrow. These songs sounded much stranger than anything Gesualdo wrote.

[epn10]

You're sure they were French?

[wcbroccoli]

Or Franco-Flemish.

[epn10]

Well that would be pretty odd. That school of composition was known for its mathematical precision & use of rhythmic/harmonic proportions...as I'm sure you know. You're not referring to Ars Subtilior composers, right? They were certainly a much earlier example of musical strangeness (although their experimentations dealt primarily with rhythm).

[epn10]

Ah, but he exploited them to extraordinary effect!

I suppose Hendrix exploited the 7#9 chord....  Yes, that's right, I used an anachronism to prove a pooint. Whatcha gonna do bout it?

[epn10]

And when did I ay he "invented" those techniques?!

[wcbroccoli]

Neither Gesualdo nor Palestrinai were writing for future generations. Yet Palestrina is well remembered and Gesualdo is a footnote.

The notion of writing music to be remembered by future generations is a 19th-21st century. notion.

Prior to the growth of bourgeois concerts in the late 18th c. , music of dead composers was rarely performed.

[wcbroccoli]

I think that's why Gesualdo wrote music, for his own pleasure.

He certainly didn't need to publish music for a liviing. Nor did he have to be concerned with whether anyone would perform it. He could afford to hire his own musicians to perform it. And he did.

[epn10]

As I see it, the music is still powerful, no matter what crimes Gesualdo committed. Don't let his violent history obscure the artistic merit of his music.

Compare this with Victoria's version...it's amazing how greatly their styles differ, even though they were contemporaries. Both pieces are powerful in their own way.

[kla102030]

"Gesualdo kicked-in the door and stabbed Maria d'Avalos dozens-of-times in the abdomen and vagina, as well as similar sexual-mutilations on her consort, the Duke of Andria. It is told in local legends of Venosa that after Gesualdo had dragged their bodies into the street, a San Dominican monk committed an act of necrophilia on the body of d'Avalos, adding to the depravity of the event."

He made masterpieces, but he was sadistic

its sad i can no longer enjoy this knowing the kinda person he was

[eriksatie9]

...magnifique

[cyberdude61]

Do not mistake this for Gregorian Chant. Many do.

Albinoni's Adagio is cool too.

[PhyloidealCreations]

what's the name of this style, thus?

and what are the main differences?

[p0lyph0ny]

Beautiful and haunting. I am just beginning to discover Gesualdo and loving every moment of it.

[burdinus]

Just stunning! The Hieronymus Bosch of his time! Compare this with the more conventional (and wonderful) De Lasso or Monteverdi stuff.

For a "great" doubleheader, play this and the lamentoso of Tschaikovsky's Sixth in sequence. You'll be ready to hurl yourself off the Hollywood Hills like Peggy Entwistle!

[LDixon007]

But liberated, at the end!

Excellent singing - I must look for that group.

[burkedevlin67]

Not the Hieronymus Bosch of his time. Bosch harmed no one. In fact, Gesualdo is more like the Caravaggio of music. In fact, Caravaggio was his contemporary (1573-1610) and was also a brutal killer with impeccable taste.

[rotsenon]

Sorry, wasn't Hieronymus Bosch a painter?.. in what sense you mean the comparison. Thanks

[pacoelflaco9]

yior mama!

[canibalholocausto]

bsartist  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[thobytree]

No-one gets to that point of the darkly sublime better than Gesualdo. Liturgy with attitude.

[bsartist]

The OJ Simpson of renaissance composers. ;)

[myuhlz]

OMFG!

[nolanryan999]

I'm so glad i discovered the weird music of this ultimate weirdo. includes some chromaticism that is rare til' Wagner

[thecritiquevirtuoso]

A murderous lunatic, and the predecessor of chromaticism to a white-supremacist Nazi? it doesn't get any weirder than this!

[ALFYsk8]

"Carlo Gesualdo, prince of Verona(1560-1613)."

Actually he was the prince of Venosa.

Thanks for the vid!

[Ramatganski]

Thank you.

[d1550bk]

Pure magic, he makes the music fit to the words!

[raducaneni]

I ve got the chance to begin my excursium in baroc music with this timeless masterpiece.

Una vera capodopera