It is true: Coriolanus is the closest thing Shakespeare to a tragedy (in the ancient Greek meaning) has ever written: Even Julius Caesar is barred that title due to the manipulating Cassius, who resembles the noble villains of Shakespeare such as Richard III or Edmund in King Lear, but lacks the ambition and selfishness but labours for the liberty of Rome; but here Shakespeare created a tragic conflict: The noble man clashing with the base masses, resulting in tragedy and mischief.
@SierraNeef: Thanks for the applause; so I see that Shakespeare is not unknown in the Spanish-speaking world, though there is no Spanish play by him but a Scottish play; as his plays were set either in Italy/Rome or England and at random places such as France or Denmark; do you know his other Roman tragedies such as Julius Caesar, Antony & Cleopatra and Titus Andronicus; the first two equal this one, though the BBC version of Julius Caesar is not that well done.
@GreatGrumbledook Shakespeare is universal, he's everywhere. Acctually, it's Kidd's "Spanish tragedy" that I havent been able to find at any book stores. But my applause was for the greek tragedies: Coriolanus has not the caracter depth that is typical of Lear, Cleopatra, Hamlet, etc, but the play's structure makes it somehow simillar to the greek idea of tragedy, wich I love, maybe more than any other play written since Euripides.
(Acctually, I have a soft spot for Titus Andronicus)
@SierraNeef: In a way yes (and I will quote Shakespeare about the matter later); but King Lear is not a tragedy in the Greek sense because it has a villain: Edmund; and there are no villains, people who consider themselves as evil; in Greek tragedies the passions and dignities of the characters clash: Like Clythaimestra slaying her Husband Agamemnon because he did sacrifice their daughter Iphigenia and Orestes slays with the help of Electra his mother to avenge his father.
@SierraNeef: And so it is here with Coriolanus: His ideas of a state rule by the nobility collide with the encroaching democracy as well as his personal feud with Aufidius, which is a strange mixture of hate and love, almost like the story of Cain and Abel; and therefore only the histories of Shakespeare (save Henry VI Part III and Richard III) and his Roman plays resemble a classical tragedy; but now to the promised quote, taken from As you like it:
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms. And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel And shining morning face, creeping like snail Unwillingly to school. And then the lover, Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad Made to his mistress' eyebrow. ...
... Then a soldier, Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice, In fair round belly with good capon lined, With eyes severe and beard of formal cut, Full of wise saws and modern instances; And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side, His youthful hose, well saved, ...
... a world too wide For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice, Turning again toward childish treble, pipes And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all, That ends this strange eventful history, Is second childishness and mere oblivion, Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."
I agree, but not entirely. A proper definition of "tragedy", that's not simply limited to "greek tragedy", is —I think— impossible. We can talk of greek tragedy, and that is quite simple, or we can speak of just "the tragic", and that is strage. You can't find one thing that makes a play a tragedy, it's a mixture of things, non of which is impresindible, non of which is really necesary. I feel that Macbeth is more tragic than Racine's Phedre, and yet, more dissimilar to the...
@SierraNeef: Well, as the Greeks have invented the tragedy it is defined by them; and so is democracy: The Chinese may call their despotism a democracy but it is not due to the Greek meaning of the word; and so are all Greek things; and Racine is French, therefore read the Hippolytus of Euripides to learn about the Greek original; and no Macbeth is not tragic at all: Macbeth acknowledges the wickedness of his lust for power, a thing that would never happen in a Greek tragedy.
@SierraNeef: Humanity is a bit older than Shakespeare, unless he is somewhat the incarnation of a creation goddess; and of there is a culture/nation which has invented the individual than it is the Greeks, though all cultures are a mix of individuality and collective, due to the double essence of humanity: Being a social animal; but for the Greeks the Gods and Fate were responsible for the fortune or misfortune in life; a thing Shakespeare rejected; and I will quote Edmund from King Lear:
"This is the excellent foppery of the world, that, when we are sick in fortune,--often the surfeit of our own behavior,--we make guilty of our disasters the sun, the moon, and the stars: as if we were villains by necessity; fools by heavenly compulsion; knaves, thieves, and treachers, by spherical predominance; drunkards, liars, and adulterers, by an enforced obedience of planetary influence; and all that we are evil in, by a divine thrusting on: an admirable evasion of whoremaster man, ...
... to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star! My father compounded with my mother under the dragon's tail; and my nativity was under Ursa major; so that it follows, I am rough and lecherous. Tut, I should have been that I am, had the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my bastardizing."
@SierraNeef: And I read tragedies but no books about them, save the works of Aristotle and he said already that they are hard to define, but the tragic is the lack of good and evil.
Now I disagree. There is, of course, a greek sense of tragedy, by which only greek tragedy, and all greek tragedy, must be considered tragic. But the meaning of thing changes, despite their creator, and so, even Goethe call's his Faust a tragedy: it is not tragic at all! I belive there is a non-greek sense of the tragic, but what puzzels me is whether or not there are some actual works that correspond to it. Coriolanus may be the closest thing —for it's lack of evil only?
@SierraNeef: Nope; words are bound to their origin: A sword will always be a sword and if you call a tree thus it is sophistry, as I said already; Faust is a play and not even a sadness play as the Germans call the tragedy; and of course somewhat the mental autobiography of Monsieur Goethe; and again: In Greek tragedy the persons, Gods and various powers (such as morale, hatred, love and so on) clash, without being good or evil (as this mere category was unknown to the Greeks).
@SierraNeef: As always: Shakespeare understood this himself best, without knowing it! Aufidius contemplates about the causes with Coriolanus was banished from Rome and finds no vice or morale wrong in his behaviour:
"All places yield to him ere he sits down; And the nobility of Rome are his: The senators and patricians love him too: The tribunes are no soldiers; and their people Will be as rash in the repeal, as hasty To expel him thence. I think he'll be to Rome As is the osprey to the fish, who takes it By sovereignty of nature. First he was A noble servant to them; but he could not Carry his honours even: whether 'twas pride, Which out of daily fortune ever taints The happy man; ...
... whether defect of judgment, To fail in the disposing of those chances Which he was lord of; or whether nature, Not to be other than one thing, not moving From the casque to the cushion, but commanding peace Even with the same austerity and garb As he controll'd the war; but one of these-- As he hath spices of them all, not all, For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd, So hated, and so banish'd: but he has a merit, To choke it in the utterance. ...
... So our virtues Lie in the interpretation of the time: And power, unto itself most commendable, Hath not a tomb so evident as a chair To extol what it hath done. One fire drives out one fire; one nail, one nail; Rights by rights falter, strengths by strengths do fail. Come, let's away. When, Caius, Rome is thine, Thou art poor'st of all; then shortly art thou mine."
...and yet, Macbeth is more dissimilar to the greek's than Phedre, for obvious reasons. That led me to conclude, whille watching this video and thinking of Bloom's comment on Shakespeare, that the english speaking critic seems to have an acute sense of caracter —as Shakespeare is "the inventor of the human"—, but not so much for structure. I think of Aristotl's Poetics, of course, but also of Nabokov's comment's on European literature, and of course, my own sensibility
Personaly, I think that Coriolanus is Shakespeare's most tragic tragedy because of it's structure. I would have to explain what exactly I understand as "tragic", but that would take many long pages and still be vague. Have you read Steiner's "The death of Tragedy"? I highly recomend it, it's very enligthning... But it does not give a definition of tragedy: as I say, that is impossible.
Brilliant!!! The whole issue in a nutshell: Who rules a nation? Is there a ruling class? How far is democracy in the best interests of the mob and those who 'speak' on its behalf? A play for our and every age..Shakespeare is so deep.
Out of all the plays of Shakespeare, which the BBC produced here, this one is the most excellent of all! But were is the rest? I long to have that play here again!
If anyone has clips of Morgan Freeman's performance for God's sake upload it--Scofield's performance in Stratford Ontario is the finest but Freeman's is very very good!
i saw Alan Howard do this on stage in London in the early '80s. He's utterly wonderful. Am so glad to be able to revisit the production, even via a tv version, so long as Howard is playing the lead. He was the absolute best Shakespeare actor of his day. So magnificently powerful and every word as clear and sharp as a diamond. Thanks for putting this vid up here!
One can see why the left-wing rabble hate this play; it completely undermines their ideology. All potential voters, particularly our deluded rabble-worshipping American friends, should be made to watch this play.
Yeah, I'd like to see the whole thing, does anyone know if I could find a streaming video? I know it's not the Transformers movie, but maybe it's out there somewhere...
Occupy the Forum! We SHALL, we absolutely SHALL! (Unless Caius Martius gives his reasons, more worthier than our voices).
anneboyd1 1 month ago
HANG 'EM
EscaExcel 1 year ago
It is true: Coriolanus is the closest thing Shakespeare to a tragedy (in the ancient Greek meaning) has ever written: Even Julius Caesar is barred that title due to the manipulating Cassius, who resembles the noble villains of Shakespeare such as Richard III or Edmund in King Lear, but lacks the ambition and selfishness but labours for the liberty of Rome; but here Shakespeare created a tragic conflict: The noble man clashing with the base masses, resulting in tragedy and mischief.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook Agree!
SierraNeef 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: Thanks for the applause; so I see that Shakespeare is not unknown in the Spanish-speaking world, though there is no Spanish play by him but a Scottish play; as his plays were set either in Italy/Rome or England and at random places such as France or Denmark; do you know his other Roman tragedies such as Julius Caesar, Antony & Cleopatra and Titus Andronicus; the first two equal this one, though the BBC version of Julius Caesar is not that well done.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook Shakespeare is universal, he's everywhere. Acctually, it's Kidd's "Spanish tragedy" that I havent been able to find at any book stores. But my applause was for the greek tragedies: Coriolanus has not the caracter depth that is typical of Lear, Cleopatra, Hamlet, etc, but the play's structure makes it somehow simillar to the greek idea of tragedy, wich I love, maybe more than any other play written since Euripides.
(Acctually, I have a soft spot for Titus Andronicus)
Salú!
SierraNeef 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: In a way yes (and I will quote Shakespeare about the matter later); but King Lear is not a tragedy in the Greek sense because it has a villain: Edmund; and there are no villains, people who consider themselves as evil; in Greek tragedies the passions and dignities of the characters clash: Like Clythaimestra slaying her Husband Agamemnon because he did sacrifice their daughter Iphigenia and Orestes slays with the help of Electra his mother to avenge his father.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: And so it is here with Coriolanus: His ideas of a state rule by the nobility collide with the encroaching democracy as well as his personal feud with Aufidius, which is a strange mixture of hate and love, almost like the story of Cain and Abel; and therefore only the histories of Shakespeare (save Henry VI Part III and Richard III) and his Roman plays resemble a classical tragedy; but now to the promised quote, taken from As you like it:
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms. And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel And shining morning face, creeping like snail Unwillingly to school. And then the lover, Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad Made to his mistress' eyebrow. ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
... Then a soldier, Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel, Seeking the bubble reputation Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice, In fair round belly with good capon lined, With eyes severe and beard of formal cut, Full of wise saws and modern instances; And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side, His youthful hose, well saved, ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
... a world too wide For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice, Turning again toward childish treble, pipes And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all, That ends this strange eventful history, Is second childishness and mere oblivion, Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook
I agree, but not entirely. A proper definition of "tragedy", that's not simply limited to "greek tragedy", is —I think— impossible. We can talk of greek tragedy, and that is quite simple, or we can speak of just "the tragic", and that is strage. You can't find one thing that makes a play a tragedy, it's a mixture of things, non of which is impresindible, non of which is really necesary. I feel that Macbeth is more tragic than Racine's Phedre, and yet, more dissimilar to the...
SierraNeef 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: Well, as the Greeks have invented the tragedy it is defined by them; and so is democracy: The Chinese may call their despotism a democracy but it is not due to the Greek meaning of the word; and so are all Greek things; and Racine is French, therefore read the Hippolytus of Euripides to learn about the Greek original; and no Macbeth is not tragic at all: Macbeth acknowledges the wickedness of his lust for power, a thing that would never happen in a Greek tragedy.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: Humanity is a bit older than Shakespeare, unless he is somewhat the incarnation of a creation goddess; and of there is a culture/nation which has invented the individual than it is the Greeks, though all cultures are a mix of individuality and collective, due to the double essence of humanity: Being a social animal; but for the Greeks the Gods and Fate were responsible for the fortune or misfortune in life; a thing Shakespeare rejected; and I will quote Edmund from King Lear:
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
"This is the excellent foppery of the world, that, when we are sick in fortune,--often the surfeit of our own behavior,--we make guilty of our disasters the sun, the moon, and the stars: as if we were villains by necessity; fools by heavenly compulsion; knaves, thieves, and treachers, by spherical predominance; drunkards, liars, and adulterers, by an enforced obedience of planetary influence; and all that we are evil in, by a divine thrusting on: an admirable evasion of whoremaster man, ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
... to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star! My father compounded with my mother under the dragon's tail; and my nativity was under Ursa major; so that it follows, I am rough and lecherous. Tut, I should have been that I am, had the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my bastardizing."
@SierraNeef: And I read tragedies but no books about them, save the works of Aristotle and he said already that they are hard to define, but the tragic is the lack of good and evil.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook
Now I disagree. There is, of course, a greek sense of tragedy, by which only greek tragedy, and all greek tragedy, must be considered tragic. But the meaning of thing changes, despite their creator, and so, even Goethe call's his Faust a tragedy: it is not tragic at all! I belive there is a non-greek sense of the tragic, but what puzzels me is whether or not there are some actual works that correspond to it. Coriolanus may be the closest thing —for it's lack of evil only?
SierraNeef 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: Nope; words are bound to their origin: A sword will always be a sword and if you call a tree thus it is sophistry, as I said already; Faust is a play and not even a sadness play as the Germans call the tragedy; and of course somewhat the mental autobiography of Monsieur Goethe; and again: In Greek tragedy the persons, Gods and various powers (such as morale, hatred, love and so on) clash, without being good or evil (as this mere category was unknown to the Greeks).
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@SierraNeef: As always: Shakespeare understood this himself best, without knowing it! Aufidius contemplates about the causes with Coriolanus was banished from Rome and finds no vice or morale wrong in his behaviour:
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
"All places yield to him ere he sits down; And the nobility of Rome are his: The senators and patricians love him too: The tribunes are no soldiers; and their people Will be as rash in the repeal, as hasty To expel him thence. I think he'll be to Rome As is the osprey to the fish, who takes it By sovereignty of nature. First he was A noble servant to them; but he could not Carry his honours even: whether 'twas pride, Which out of daily fortune ever taints The happy man; ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
... whether defect of judgment, To fail in the disposing of those chances Which he was lord of; or whether nature, Not to be other than one thing, not moving From the casque to the cushion, but commanding peace Even with the same austerity and garb As he controll'd the war; but one of these-- As he hath spices of them all, not all, For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd, So hated, and so banish'd: but he has a merit, To choke it in the utterance. ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
... So our virtues Lie in the interpretation of the time: And power, unto itself most commendable, Hath not a tomb so evident as a chair To extol what it hath done. One fire drives out one fire; one nail, one nail; Rights by rights falter, strengths by strengths do fail. Come, let's away. When, Caius, Rome is thine, Thou art poor'st of all; then shortly art thou mine."
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook
...and yet, Macbeth is more dissimilar to the greek's than Phedre, for obvious reasons. That led me to conclude, whille watching this video and thinking of Bloom's comment on Shakespeare, that the english speaking critic seems to have an acute sense of caracter —as Shakespeare is "the inventor of the human"—, but not so much for structure. I think of Aristotl's Poetics, of course, but also of Nabokov's comment's on European literature, and of course, my own sensibility
SierraNeef 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook
Personaly, I think that Coriolanus is Shakespeare's most tragic tragedy because of it's structure. I would have to explain what exactly I understand as "tragic", but that would take many long pages and still be vague. Have you read Steiner's "The death of Tragedy"? I highly recomend it, it's very enligthning... But it does not give a definition of tragedy: as I say, that is impossible.
SierraNeef 1 year ago
Fantastic scene this which really grips the viewer and shows that extraneous scenery is unnecessary when the dialogue is as powerful as this!!
DAVIDDOWNEY23 1 year ago
Note to aspiring actors: this is how you do Shakespeare.
DonJulioBlanco2002 1 year ago 5
god I love this play
It appeals to my angry elitist streak
logant44 1 year ago
Brilliant!!! The whole issue in a nutshell: Who rules a nation? Is there a ruling class? How far is democracy in the best interests of the mob and those who 'speak' on its behalf? A play for our and every age..Shakespeare is so deep.
C0NTR4B455 2 years ago 6
Out of all the plays of Shakespeare, which the BBC produced here, this one is the most excellent of all! But were is the rest? I long to have that play here again!
GreatGrumbledook 2 years ago
If anyone has clips of Morgan Freeman's performance for God's sake upload it--Scofield's performance in Stratford Ontario is the finest but Freeman's is very very good!
vivascargill 2 years ago
i saw Alan Howard do this on stage in London in the early '80s. He's utterly wonderful. Am so glad to be able to revisit the production, even via a tv version, so long as Howard is playing the lead. He was the absolute best Shakespeare actor of his day. So magnificently powerful and every word as clear and sharp as a diamond. Thanks for putting this vid up here!
harriet2501 2 years ago 2
old globe san diego has a thrilling production. it is a beautiful play.
uncletibs 2 years ago
Wow, this is an incredible performance.
necessiter78 2 years ago 2
The State seems to have some PROBLEMS
duffyduddy 2 years ago
Mark you his absolute "shall"....SHALL???
DonJulioBlanco2002 2 years ago 2
"Cut me to pieces Volsces, men and lads, stain all your edges on me."
koreoh12 3 years ago
Best play ever!
5PhiV 3 years ago
One can see why the left-wing rabble hate this play; it completely undermines their ideology. All potential voters, particularly our deluded rabble-worshipping American friends, should be made to watch this play.
3945639 3 years ago
As a proud member of the left wing rabble, I must say I love this play and have loved it ever since I saw it as a young child.
just2w4tch 3 years ago 2
Read Harold Goddard's "The Meaning of Shakepeare."
He explains Coriolanus as more a psychological treatise.
Mindblowing if you love Shakespeare.
edydon 2 years ago
Fierce.
swannavon 3 years ago
I hate this play. Even when well acted.
orchote 3 years ago
Coriolanus sure knew how to kick ass on the stupid rabble.
bryn93 3 years ago 2
I've been everywhere looking for Coriolanus online... not a trace ! Please, put up the rest ! :D
EoghanILL 3 years ago
Oh, that fiery force of Alan Howard... brilliant actor. He was a fantastic Prince Hal at Stratford in 1975 as well.
WriterWench 3 years ago
That is brialliant acting!!!!!!!!!!...That my dear veiwers is theatre! Long live the truth of christ's heart!
islandgirl700 3 years ago
Yeah, I'd like to see the whole thing, does anyone know if I could find a streaming video? I know it's not the Transformers movie, but maybe it's out there somewhere...
lethe56 4 years ago
Petshoplad, can you put any more of this up?
saulhughes 4 years ago
Seconded.
just2w4tch 4 years ago