In other words, Piston Engines, specially turbocharged, demands much more work from the pilot (Engine Management) than Jets. Besides been more prone to fail than Jets too and much harder to control on one engine. Specially climbing out. Jets are a blessing, except the sound, Radials sound are magic.
Yes, the APU was started by the copilot and could be used to deploy flaps, gear, brakes.
I flew Beech 18's, DC-3's & 2 long trips on hardy C-46. Helped fix those big radials too. Love how they sound. But they are sure hard to manage, ground and air. Jet engines are all automatic & easy to fly . Big radials are a lot of work, on air and ground. I Lost left engine on take off at 100 feet on a loaded DC-3, Had to turnaround, 400 feet agl downwind leg. unload it, load another DC3, fly 6hr IFR.
the L/D ratio of a jet in glide (while clean) is actually pretty good. About 15 to 17 or better to one. The problem is, the rate of speed gives that ratio a 2000' or more rate of decent. Not alot of time to plan.
Who says a tight turn to do this turnback is needed. I teach them since 1993. Only a 40 deg. bank at the safe Best Glide speed is all you need.. Read my post again. Can you read well??
After reading some replies here I more and more come to the conclusion that I am embarrassed to be a pilot, but maybe that's because I am the type of pilot that talks 5 minutes the most about airplanes within 1 year but here comes my point:
He made it.
How, when, should have done this or that is for losers and sissies because the winner is the one that does it by his guts surviving instead of the philosophical idiot that went A-Z by the book of common sense and logic.
@phili878 man¡ you are right¡¡ thanks, I had a similar emergency and if i go by the book that time I would crash, I was falling with no power and I was mad fighting with the plane, never thought about my bouns or theet, the emergency check says if no restart shut everything off, I did not and I made it, good pilot Phili.
USAir A320 ditching was at 3,200 feet and not far away from a tailwind landing back at La Guardia...Flight Path shows clearly he could have made it back as he said but he changed his mind to try to reach TTB ahead, then noticed was too far and had to ditch at the freezy Hudson..See his flight path video, here on youtuve...Was that the only option????
If you listen to the tapes. LGA was never a option. The flight climbed out over the bronx and was about a mile east of the hudson at the 3200 feet you quote. He had 2 choices, turn right and land north of the the GWB or left. Turned out left was where the ferries were that could get the passengers off as quickely as possible. PS. did you know there was a LSA touring the hudson that had to manuver to avoid the A320 just after it passed the GWB?
Yes. That was the only option. By the time the crew realized what had happened and started considering options La Guardia was already too far away to safely make it. In the simulator when the NTSB investigators recreated the flight and started a turn immediately they only made it back to La Guardia half the time. That was when the turn was initiated immediately and when the investigators were expecting an engine failure. In a real world scenario those would have been greatly reduced.
TTB was never an option. The Hudson was the only large enough place where the crew KNEW they could make it. I am glad you were not one of the flight crew on that plane. Turning back toward La Guardia could have killed all onboard and people on the ground. I respect captain Sullenberger and first officer Skyles for their decision which was the right one, and under those circumstances the only right one,
has anyone flown outta Merrit island. generally totake off intothe windrequires you to take off East(cant remember the runway? lol) but at the departure end about 100 feet past the numbers is a bay, so in this instance it was either a neighborhood, a mall, or a bay depending on altitude and speed i wouldhave gone back down on runway heading and try tostop before the bay, or do what this PIC did and go fo the airport environment! Safe flying!
Push nose down, 40 bank at or over Vglide, don't look back or yopu will yank the wheel back, after 180 degree turn, decide if flaps needed, turn to aligh early and dirty (if). Cut the mixture, cut the flaps. Kiss the ground later. I have a 1995 video showing all this and more. I had to do this for real on a Hershey Bar Cherokee.
Calnickel you were just lucky you did not stall that 206 while low and slow. I teach that maneuver a lot, even at night . You are not to make low altitude steep turns. I found out only 40 deg. its good to turn and glide well. Over 45 deg. bank, stalling speed goes way up fast. Hell is full of pilots that though they could get away with low and slow steep turns.
It seems like most pilots believe that your plane will simply fall out of the sky at 90 degrees of bank because the stall speed will be infinity or that a plane handles differently at 300AGL than at 3000AGL. It handles the same, just the consequences of screwing up are greater.
I was 1000# under gross and I've has EMT. I usually won't turn around until 500ft, but it started as a misfire.
I don't endorse what I did and I was very happy to be on the ground in one piece and not a statistic.
Awesome job! I lost power on takeoff in a C206 and I made it back. The glider pilots that saw it say I was at rope break height (300') though I think I was a bit higher. If you can handle it, the key is to make the first turn as tight as possible (I did a 60deg bank with the stall horn just coming on). This makes the final turn not as tight. Don't worry about altitude for the first turn, lose it to keep A/S up.
While airspeed is indeed important, so is altitude. Don't negate one for the other. When you have no power and all the lights on the PAPI start progressively turning red, you'll wish you never thought that way.
'Engine out' on takeoff is one of the most difficult decisions you can find yourself in while flying. Turn-around? or go straight and pick a cow pasture? You think it's easy? It's not.
That is certainly what I was taught and remember that stall speed goes UP in those turns so they are tricky. You can turn so steep that "best glide" and "stall" converge...then you're in an incipent spin possibly. Find your options staight ahead ..which may be the *only* option.
I see the reasoning for that, but I disagree. If things in front of me started looking grim after an engine failure, you better believe I'm turning that thing around.
Agreed if theres buildings/trees strait ahead like most airports I fly into better to try to turn and land on some part of airport like i said above somthing everyone should practice every once in a while to see how low their aircraft can be and still do a 180 (wish my company would let me do that in their plane)
Keep in mind, it is better to be in control of the plane (not stalled) and land in trees then to stall/spin into the runway threshold. I would pick the best place in a 45 degree arc in front of my plane. If your familiar with the airport, make the desision what you will do in case of emergency before taking off. It is not a desision to be made in the air under stress. This pilot in this video was lucky (as well as unlucky).
I have a video of take off and initial climb forced landings. they are demonstrated (real). A Piper, from 400 and 500 feet agl. Then landing with a 16 knots quartering tailwind landing. Many tricks demo. Also shows 50 feet agl engine cuts.
depends on situation ive practiced them in vairios aircraft from altitudes of 200-500 ft some need 40 degrees of bank with the stall horn glaring to make it. somthing that should be practiced in each new aircraft you fly. flight schools will typicly tell you 10 degrees of bank and dont turn below 700 but I havent flown a ga plane that cant make a 180 degree turn at 500
Forgot to add not at this airport but most airports are large have intersecting runways are large grass areas to the sides of the runway so even if you werent to make a full 180 to the runway you could land on the grass at a airport usually better than the golf course or a populated street
You are right. I had such landing as a passenger in a Cessna. Propeller hit one of the signs (plastic pieces flow into the air really spectacularly) and the nose gear hit concrete base of that sign, broke off and we hit the ground with the airplane nose. That was really sad to look at it afterwards. The only positive thing was that firefighter crew were there in seconds.
He can consider himself damn lucky. Most pilots that attempt an emergency 180 deg. turn with a power loss right after takeoff dont make it, especially as low as he was when he started.
@agcatdriver Most pilots that try that on a loaded and heavy agcat maybe wont make it. But I know about 6 pilots besides me that had to do that turn and survived well. The lowest one had 150 hours and did from 300 feet agl on C172 that lost one cylinder and could not climb anymore. He could get only about 1800 rpm from eng. Made it at 40 degree bank like this CFI told him FOR REAL about 5 times. Of course, you only hear about the ones that did it too low or steep turn and failed and died. Not me
Centurion is a heavy plane with no power.....pilot did an amazing job!
killingamps 1 year ago
In other words, Piston Engines, specially turbocharged, demands much more work from the pilot (Engine Management) than Jets. Besides been more prone to fail than Jets too and much harder to control on one engine. Specially climbing out. Jets are a blessing, except the sound, Radials sound are magic.
i think.
CFITOMAHAWK2 2 years ago
Yes, the APU was started by the copilot and could be used to deploy flaps, gear, brakes.
I flew Beech 18's, DC-3's & 2 long trips on hardy C-46. Helped fix those big radials too. Love how they sound. But they are sure hard to manage, ground and air. Jet engines are all automatic & easy to fly . Big radials are a lot of work, on air and ground. I Lost left engine on take off at 100 feet on a loaded DC-3, Had to turnaround, 400 feet agl downwind leg. unload it, load another DC3, fly 6hr IFR.
CFITOMAHAWK2 2 years ago
the L/D ratio of a jet in glide (while clean) is actually pretty good. About 15 to 17 or better to one. The problem is, the rate of speed gives that ratio a 2000' or more rate of decent. Not alot of time to plan.
paulflyer 2 years ago
Who says a tight turn to do this turnback is needed. I teach them since 1993. Only a 40 deg. bank at the safe Best Glide speed is all you need.. Read my post again. Can you read well??
CFITOMAHAWK2 2 years ago
After reading some replies here I more and more come to the conclusion that I am embarrassed to be a pilot, but maybe that's because I am the type of pilot that talks 5 minutes the most about airplanes within 1 year but here comes my point:
He made it.
How, when, should have done this or that is for losers and sissies because the winner is the one that does it by his guts surviving instead of the philosophical idiot that went A-Z by the book of common sense and logic.
phili878 2 years ago 8
@phili878 man¡ you are right¡¡ thanks, I had a similar emergency and if i go by the book that time I would crash, I was falling with no power and I was mad fighting with the plane, never thought about my bouns or theet, the emergency check says if no restart shut everything off, I did not and I made it, good pilot Phili.
captOrange1 1 year ago
USAir A320 ditching was at 3,200 feet and not far away from a tailwind landing back at La Guardia...Flight Path shows clearly he could have made it back as he said but he changed his mind to try to reach TTB ahead, then noticed was too far and had to ditch at the freezy Hudson..See his flight path video, here on youtuve...Was that the only option????
CFITOMAHAWK2 3 years ago
If you listen to the tapes. LGA was never a option. The flight climbed out over the bronx and was about a mile east of the hudson at the 3200 feet you quote. He had 2 choices, turn right and land north of the the GWB or left. Turned out left was where the ferries were that could get the passengers off as quickely as possible. PS. did you know there was a LSA touring the hudson that had to manuver to avoid the A320 just after it passed the GWB?
paulflyer 2 years ago 2
Yes. That was the only option. By the time the crew realized what had happened and started considering options La Guardia was already too far away to safely make it. In the simulator when the NTSB investigators recreated the flight and started a turn immediately they only made it back to La Guardia half the time. That was when the turn was initiated immediately and when the investigators were expecting an engine failure. In a real world scenario those would have been greatly reduced.
SpaceFlightVideos 2 years ago 2
TTB was never an option. The Hudson was the only large enough place where the crew KNEW they could make it. I am glad you were not one of the flight crew on that plane. Turning back toward La Guardia could have killed all onboard and people on the ground. I respect captain Sullenberger and first officer Skyles for their decision which was the right one, and under those circumstances the only right one,
SpaceFlightVideos 2 years ago 2
has anyone flown outta Merrit island. generally totake off intothe windrequires you to take off East(cant remember the runway? lol) but at the departure end about 100 feet past the numbers is a bay, so in this instance it was either a neighborhood, a mall, or a bay depending on altitude and speed i wouldhave gone back down on runway heading and try tostop before the bay, or do what this PIC did and go fo the airport environment! Safe flying!
armyav8r 3 years ago
Push nose down, 40 bank at or over Vglide, don't look back or yopu will yank the wheel back, after 180 degree turn, decide if flaps needed, turn to aligh early and dirty (if). Cut the mixture, cut the flaps. Kiss the ground later. I have a 1995 video showing all this and more. I had to do this for real on a Hershey Bar Cherokee.
CFITOMAHAWK2 3 years ago
Hey calnickel, how do you ever get off the ground filled with so much bullshit?
homerboy488 3 years ago
Hear the guy say "oh s***"? hahaha sounds very funny in slow motion!
skyhawk172p 3 years ago
my friend bought a pressurized 210 i hate to see him take off b/c it seems the damn plane loves the runway it dont like to get off of it.
TRANSFORMER2508 4 years ago
Calnickel you were just lucky you did not stall that 206 while low and slow. I teach that maneuver a lot, even at night . You are not to make low altitude steep turns. I found out only 40 deg. its good to turn and glide well. Over 45 deg. bank, stalling speed goes way up fast. Hell is full of pilots that though they could get away with low and slow steep turns.
CFITOMAHAWK2 4 years ago
It seems like most pilots believe that your plane will simply fall out of the sky at 90 degrees of bank because the stall speed will be infinity or that a plane handles differently at 300AGL than at 3000AGL. It handles the same, just the consequences of screwing up are greater.
I was 1000# under gross and I've has EMT. I usually won't turn around until 500ft, but it started as a misfire.
I don't endorse what I did and I was very happy to be on the ground in one piece and not a statistic.
Calnickel 3 years ago
Awesome job! I lost power on takeoff in a C206 and I made it back. The glider pilots that saw it say I was at rope break height (300') though I think I was a bit higher. If you can handle it, the key is to make the first turn as tight as possible (I did a 60deg bank with the stall horn just coming on). This makes the final turn not as tight. Don't worry about altitude for the first turn, lose it to keep A/S up.
Calnickel 4 years ago
While airspeed is indeed important, so is altitude. Don't negate one for the other. When you have no power and all the lights on the PAPI start progressively turning red, you'll wish you never thought that way.
SenorSpode 3 years ago
'Engine out' on takeoff is one of the most difficult decisions you can find yourself in while flying. Turn-around? or go straight and pick a cow pasture? You think it's easy? It's not.
w5cdt 4 years ago 2
Never turn around. Stay as straight ahead as terrain and obstacles and available landing sites allow.
jakeharvey 3 years ago
That is certainly what I was taught and remember that stall speed goes UP in those turns so they are tricky. You can turn so steep that "best glide" and "stall" converge...then you're in an incipent spin possibly. Find your options staight ahead ..which may be the *only* option.
w5cdt 3 years ago
I see the reasoning for that, but I disagree. If things in front of me started looking grim after an engine failure, you better believe I'm turning that thing around.
stranded170 3 years ago
Agreed if theres buildings/trees strait ahead like most airports I fly into better to try to turn and land on some part of airport like i said above somthing everyone should practice every once in a while to see how low their aircraft can be and still do a 180 (wish my company would let me do that in their plane)
v6greenfbird95 3 years ago 2
Keep in mind, it is better to be in control of the plane (not stalled) and land in trees then to stall/spin into the runway threshold. I would pick the best place in a 45 degree arc in front of my plane. If your familiar with the airport, make the desision what you will do in case of emergency before taking off. It is not a desision to be made in the air under stress. This pilot in this video was lucky (as well as unlucky).
paulflyer 3 years ago
To quote Top Gun, "...the gamble worked, but I think we've shown it as an example of what not to do."
jakeharvey 3 years ago
I have a video of take off and initial climb forced landings. they are demonstrated (real). A Piper, from 400 and 500 feet agl. Then landing with a 16 knots quartering tailwind landing. Many tricks demo. Also shows 50 feet agl engine cuts.
CFITOMAHAWK2 4 years ago
Where can I see that?
fxdwings 4 years ago
dont go more than 10 degrees bank use the rudder nose down keep speed up (70-80kts)
iiifly 4 years ago
depends on situation ive practiced them in vairios aircraft from altitudes of 200-500 ft some need 40 degrees of bank with the stall horn glaring to make it. somthing that should be practiced in each new aircraft you fly. flight schools will typicly tell you 10 degrees of bank and dont turn below 700 but I havent flown a ga plane that cant make a 180 degree turn at 500
v6greenfbird95 4 years ago
Forgot to add not at this airport but most airports are large have intersecting runways are large grass areas to the sides of the runway so even if you werent to make a full 180 to the runway you could land on the grass at a airport usually better than the golf course or a populated street
v6greenfbird95 4 years ago
Not all of them; Many airports have ditches that prevent grass landings. You just play the best card you can.
SenorSpode 4 years ago
You are right. I had such landing as a passenger in a Cessna. Propeller hit one of the signs (plastic pieces flow into the air really spectacularly) and the nose gear hit concrete base of that sign, broke off and we hit the ground with the airplane nose. That was really sad to look at it afterwards. The only positive thing was that firefighter crew were there in seconds.
jpiterow 4 years ago
you sir... are a moron
go back to playing flight sim
RemoveB4Flght 4 years ago
Yea, YOu got it RemoberB4Flght wtf. Stall depends on angle of attack
sportskid11 4 years ago
He can consider himself damn lucky. Most pilots that attempt an emergency 180 deg. turn with a power loss right after takeoff dont make it, especially as low as he was when he started.
agcatdriver 4 years ago 5
@agcatdriver Most pilots that try that on a loaded and heavy agcat maybe wont make it. But I know about 6 pilots besides me that had to do that turn and survived well. The lowest one had 150 hours and did from 300 feet agl on C172 that lost one cylinder and could not climb anymore. He could get only about 1800 rpm from eng. Made it at 40 degree bank like this CFI told him FOR REAL about 5 times. Of course, you only hear about the ones that did it too low or steep turn and failed and died. Not me
CFITOMAHAWK2 1 year ago
thats pretty good work
val2323 4 years ago