The Buddha made up the word Samadhi- Buddhist Meditation

[hearts0ngs]

"...one love...one heart...let's get secluded and feel alright!"

[Kalatiso]

Practice!

[Kalatiso]

Sutta-Nerds!

[zatoichiable]

A wonderful man. . Salam,

[SarahaJi]

Hi begintosee,

Sahaji samadhi looks like Pali nibbana and kevala samadhi looks like 8 perception attainments by Sri Ramana ............

like a river discharged into the ocean and its identity lost;-Sahaji

You would have to read the whole page...

What is Liberation According to the Teachings

of Sri Ramana Maharshi?

[begintosee]

Hi -Thanks but I have read the teachings and am very aware of this state. It is likely to be the 8th Jhana.  BUT it is a one-pointed absorption state but here Bhante Vimalaramsi is talking about an entirely different type of Tranquility which is what he calls an Aware Jhana. That is, a Jhana without Craving.

[VerotteTube]

@begintosee

Ramana was offering a totally different way of clearing the hinderances, one that relied on satsang and transmission.

I won't say one method is better than another but to compare the path laid out by the Buddha and the assistance given to the savaks by Ramana is to compare apples and oranges. The truth is much larger than either pratītyasamutpāda or advaita vendanta and i think if the Buddha were alive today he would be neither a Buddhist or Advaitin.

[SarahaJi]

Sri Ramana describes clearly the difference between kevala samadhi and sahaja samadhi in talk 187 from Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:

[begintosee]

SarahaJi

The samadhi you refer to are 'One-Pointed" concentration absorptions. These are Hindu related states of absorption which the Buddha said were not the path when he turned his back on the 5 ascetics and left them.  The Buddha learned the one-pointed absorptions to the highest concentration of neither perception nor non-perception and found when he came out there was still craving present in his mind-thus his journey started again... This is what Bhante is showing us.

[SarahaJi]

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."

AN 4.170 PTS: A ii 156

Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem

[Jhananda]

The term Samadhi is Sanskrit, not Pali, and was in use in earlier Hindu literature, such as the Vedas, for most probably 1500 years before the Buddha arrived on the scene. So, the Buddha did not coin or invent the term samadhi.

[begintosee]

Bhante is using Rhys-Davids translation of the Suttas as basis. Samadhi is used in Hindu forms of meditation as noted but means One-Pointed absorption. Bhante says the Buddha had a different meaning for this word. It is collectedness and not absorption.

[Jhananda]

Collectedness is not English. Maybe you and Vim should spend some time with a dictionary

[mettabhavana1]

Dhamma Greetings Jhananda,

isn't "collectedness" simply the nounification of "collected" which is simple past tense and past participle of "collect"?

What is not English with that? Just wondering.

Metta & Smiles

[Jhananda]

How about 'ecstasy?' This is the term the Christian mystics used to describe similar states to what are described in the suttas.

[begintosee]

A Jhana is more a level of calm, or being collected. In the Suttas there are 8 Jhanas. The Pali for Jhana is "State". Thus 8 levels of progressively calmer states. These states are equal to the 16 Vipassana Know ledges in the VM but NOT the same. They arise through collectedness.

[Jhananda]

Does Vim have evidence to support his belief that Hindu forms of meditation interpreted Samadhi as One-Pointed absorption; whereas the Buddha defined it differently? And, if he believes the Buddha defined it differently, then how? If you believe the Buddha defined Jhana as more a level of calm, or being collected, then do you have canonical support for this interpretation? If you believe In the Suttas there are 8 Jhanas, then do you have canonical support for this belief?

[begintosee]

J-Thanks for the comment. I was listening to another talk and he clarified this point. Samadhi was not used in the Pali Language until the Buddha introduced it. Pali was the language of the Maghada people but evidently it did not include Samadhi. The Buddha put it in and created his own definition of it. Yes Sanskrit had this word but the Buddha redefined it and placed it into a local language where it did not exist. That's what I heard from the talk.

[Jhananda]

OK, say then, the Buddha did not invent or coin the term samadhi. Now, if Sanskrit had this term before him, but he felt it had to be redefined, then why do you think he would use the term? It seems to me that if he did not agree with its definition, then he would not have used to it to express himself in a language that did not have the term, as you claim.

[begintosee]

As to whether there is Sutta support then you simply re-read the Suttas -MN 111 is a good one- and there these Jhanas are defined. The real conflict here is that the one-pointed absorptions do exist ALSO as you point out and have the same "flavor" as the "Collected" Jhanas. The difference is that Craving still exist in the one-pointed practice. I spent years doing Vipassana and can tell you from experience this is the strangest thing-but it IS the case. The difference is the relax step.

[Jhananda]

Except, begintosee, I have already shown that MN 111 does not use the term arupa jhana. If you examine the Pali form of that sutta you will find instead it uses the suffix ayatana for the levels of Samadhi that are above the four jhanas. Those terms are: Àkàsànañcàyatanaü, Vinnananaacayatana, Akincannayatana, and Nevasannanasannnayatana, not arupa jhana.

[begintosee]

Arupa is simply formless jhana or state and I think the terms you refer to are the Brahma Lokas (?) that you are re-born in once you attain these Jhanas and die out of this life, not the meditative states. I am not sure how this comes into the discussion about what is Jhana. The more important point is that One Pointed Jhana suppresses the Hindrances rather than looks directly at them. The problem is that once you come down from these states of Ecstasy and equanimity you still have craving.

[Jhananda]

It sounds like begintosee, you and Vim need to not only spend some time with an English dictionary, but also spend some time with the original Pali of the suttas, because the term arupa-jhana appears nowhere in the suttas. Also, the experience of ecstasy is not at all craving or an uncontrollable state. So, maybe you two could spend some time reading the Christian mystics, such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross as well.

[begintosee]

I checked my copy of Bikkhu Bodhi's Majjhima Nikaya and Arupa is defined on Page 59 as "Formless". He then uses it in the english in MN 111 and in other suttas hundreds of times. Yes- Ecstasy, if this is experienced within a Jhana, is wholesome but what happens when you come out. Craving appears. You have just suppressed it. If you want to suppress hindrances Big Pharma can oblige a lot easier than one-pointed concentration.

[AryaSravaka]

i m so happy to hear speeches of great sangha fathers like him. thanks a lot

[begintosee]

-- Collectedness is holding an egg in your hand so it sits in your palm. Concentration is grasping/ holding the egg and chaining it to your hand. The chain is craving. Relax the Craving and let the egg sit and you have Collectedness without craving. The Buddha rejected "concentration".

[Jhananda]

Hello Begintosee, this is not how the suttas describe jhana.  The suttas describe it below:

[mettabhavana1]

'ecstasy' refers to an uncontrollable state.

Jhana, if mastered, can willingly be brought up for any lengh at any time.

[Jhananda]

It seems mettabhavana1 that you and Vim do not scrutinize your interpretation of dhamma closely. I believe you two would be served better by spending some time with a dictionary and reading some of the Christian mystics, like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross.

[begintosee]

Bhante does teach students how to go in and out of Jhana by using Determinations. First the student determines the exact time he wakes up and goes from there once he masters this into staying in a certain level of meditation for a time.

[Jhananda]

Nounification is not English. Do spend some time with an English dictionary.

[humaner]

The Devas came to listen to this...Sadhu Sadhu

[mykka04]

no teacher no student

[puppybunny1]

Thank you to such a wonderful teacher. I have been looking for this level of real world experience instead of theory.

Metta to you...

[TicalHYD]

This guy is completely great. I love it.

[Emptybellmindframe]

Thank you Bhante, thank you begintosee. May you be well.

[yadsik]

Thank you very much for sharing. Such a great teacher, he speaks from experience not commentaries!

[shinaariya]

great explanation of the word samadhi..that is how I feel when the mind is completely wholesome.