"That was a nightmare"

[jjimusicjji]

I can't see the video, because I've got some technical problems, but about this event I remember that the intervention of the russian police was a little bit too much radical

[1happiness]

sigh..

[Vasiliy1972]

В общем, как бы не пиздели правозаshitники, эта операция была продумана и исполнена отлично. Жаль, но медицинская поддержка оказалась хуже, из за этого, погибло много людей. Но с воееной точки зрения все было сделано хорошо.

[Nihilismmm]

When is humanity mature enough to abandon religion and see beyond theocratic lies?

[chapmando2007]

Very sad story. Sorry for their lose.

[seseljsrs]

The media in the Western states during the time of the incident completely focused on blaming the Russian security forces' handling of the crisis. Most reports conceded a word or two about "hostage taking" but never condemned the actions of the criminals, much less use the word "terrorism".

Another matter of historical record confirming the depth of antiRussian sentiments on the part of the NATO states.

[1293i]

The NATO countries sponsored the Chechen terrorists!

[RKLokh]

Don't be stupid, the NATO countries had no incentive to sponsor the Chechens. The reason that all the Western countries and citizens were pissed was because of the way the Moscow police ended the siege. They basically gassed there own citizens to get at the chechen militants, filling the theater with a toxic substance, possibly Fentanyl, an anesthetic which can cause cessation of breathing.

[RKLokh]

Then when they storm in they not only killed those who fired back, but executed those militants who had been knocked unconscious. They basically shot them in their sleep, rather than take them hostage. The Chechens ofered to release foreign nationals multiple times, but the police wouldn't let them. They release hostages repeatedly. In all 2 hostages were killed by the militants or in the firefight, while 127 were killed by the gas.

[RKLokh]

That's why the Westeners were angry about it, because the whole point of storming the theater should have been to save the lives of the hostages, not merely to kill the terrorists, and certainly not to execute those who could be captured alive. If a hostage rescue happened this way in the US, with the "rescuers causing the deaths of 127 people, they commanders would all be fired and probably sentenced to prison time for gross neglegence and misconduct.

[RKLokh]

And any soldiers/police who shot unconscious enemies would definitely be brought up on charges.

[Vasiliy1972]

Why? They all have a swithch with ammo, and they suddenly could turn it on! So they did everything right - killed all terrorists at the sight.

[rivalrox666]

>they commanders would all be fired and probably sentenced

How old are you?Do you know that after 9.11 no one from commanders wasn't sentenced and even was promoted. Those people who was in charge of air control and defence?

Terrorist was killed to prevent awakening and triggering bombs. But of course you know better how to act in such situations when lives of all hostages and special forces depends on bomb triggering. And the westerns know nothing about it and they care only for propaganda.

[RKLokh]

And they killed 127 of the people they were supposed to be rescuing.

[Vasiliy1972]

So what now? Are you going to make them alive again& What is your point NOW?

[RKLokh]

No, I'm not gonna make them alive again, I'm just trying to explain why a lot of Westerners were angry about it, that it wasn't just some anti-Russian bias.

[RKLokh]

It should not have been impossible for around a hundred Alpha group and Vympel officers to take into custody some of the 42 terrorists, especially if most were unconscious. This would have at least provided intelligence about the people behind the operation. 9/11 was not a hostage situation. no real warning, no negotiations, no demands. and the 9/11 officers, while possibly they could have stopped some of the deaths, did not directly cause them, like the Alpha guys gassed every1.

[Vasiliy1972]

Каждый мнит себя стратегом, видя бой со стороны...

[Vasiliy1972]

So, I guess you have better desicion to solve the problem? Sofar - it is the best operation of SF, but I agree medical hepl was kind of late. But we get much experience.

[RKLokh]

Vasily1972- I'm not saying that I would be better at it, but if the point was to rescue hostages and the result of the raid was the death of over a hundred hostages, it kinda failed it objective. If all the government cared about was killing the terrorist, then it succeeded, but governments are supposed to protect their people. And just because it was the best operation of the SF doesn't me it was done perfectly, or even as well as it could have been.

[Vasiliy1972]

I agree with you. It wasnot the perfect operation. BUT in those time, at those surcumstances, time limit - it was the best we can do. With all our limitations, with all our best ppl, with all knowledge at the moment.

I know, after that terrible event we made some serious change in SF, in tactics, etc. Not oly we, russians, but we share some of our secrets with USA and EU. So it was lesson for us, just like 9/11 for USA. Take this like that.

[RKLokh]

I'm just trying to explain why a lot of Westerners were angry about it. They way we see it, that level of civilian deaths by the police with almost none by the hostage takers implies that the police were willing to kill there own citizens as long as none of the terrorists survived, a priority of power and pride over responsibility for the citizens. That's what Westerners saw it as.

[Vasiliy1972]

It's very simple.

You havent anything like that before. (we too!) From the first big terror act - I bet you will change your mind! Ask Israelis! Though they dont love Russia, they understand our behaviour 'couse they are in the same situation now as we were back some years. Next, Europe deep in the myths of tolerance and other shit. That's why there rule arabs, negros, other alien culture ppl. We dont want to become SUCH Europe. So it's OUR experience. While Europe should mind its own business

[Vasiliy1972]

But we are not westerns. We are russians and we do it our own way. Why you want them terrorist alive? Nothing better than the sight of dead terrorists.

Say, how many hostages did you save in Munich when terrorists captured them at Olympic games? NONE! So save your angry words for you.

European anti-Russian bias is clearly seen and well known.

[RKLokh]

I'm not trying to tell you that how you did it it wrong, although I believe it is. I'm trying to explain it from the viewpoint of an American, simply so you can understand that just because someone thinks it was done badly or wrongly does not mean that they hate Russian. Yes, there is anti-Russian bias, especially in Europe America has experience with such bias too. every powerful nation does. I'm just trying to help you understand why someone might disagree with you even if their not biased.

[Vasiliy1972]

And I agreed with you that that was not perfect action, and that we did not expected it, and it was good planned too! So after that we became more ready and more strong. And I think next time such terroristic acts will be treated good in Russia (and other world with our experience)

So now, the lesson was done, should we forever blame "those bloody ruskies" for that?

[RKLokh]

No. As I said, I'm only trying to explain to you the thought process behind the complaints/accusations.

[Vasiliy1972]

You did it good, man.

I understood the message, and hope everyone reading the tread, wil get the point as well. Dont forget: we did not start any war. We are not guilty of our territory, mindset and resourses. But we are fucking ready to die fighting for all this. Even living in povetry. We can mobilize our power when the history asks. But we love to be wealthy and friendly to the world.

And let the world sorry for our coming...

[monkeygoat1507]

so sad:(