Anglo Zulu War Battlefields: Rorke's Drift Isandlwana

[viper3944]

name of song please



[ngiyaxolisa]

@viper3944 "Men of Harlech", but for the best version of it, but IMHO the best version of it is on the RDVC site in the "multimedia section". Very moving

[ngiyaxolisa]

My apologies to both of you Curly and Patrick as I mixed up the "replys" . So my responses to each of you was actually in response to the comment of the other! I'm sorry.

[junkybabes]

whats with the music!!!

[ngiyaxolisa]

@junkybabes Just a generic rendering of "Men of Harlech in MIDI. IMHO, the best version of this tune was recorded in the tiny chapel at Rorke's Drift (built on the very foundation of the "storehouse") several years ago. It was performed by the choir of the 24th Regiment ( Royal Welsh Regiment) on the 130th anniversary of the actual battle and can be found hidden away on the site "Rorkesdriftvc" in the "Potpourri" section under "multimedia".

[junkybabes]

@ngiyaxolisa fair enough

[curlyjim2550]

Two places to go before i die.. Isandslwana, and Rourkes Drift Natal. Something about about this conflict has catptivated me all my life, I need to see thee these places and pay my respects to the fallen of both sides of this needless war

[ngiyaxolisa]

@curlyjim2550 Just a few years ago, I was like you &had been for some forty years.The last person you could call a "world traveler", I'd only been in a jet once before and then for only about three hundred miles. If you make the trip, it will be one of the highlights of your life and perhaps your only deathbed regret will then be that you didn't go BACK (I pray that the last part won't be me). "Rorke's Drift" (no u) and Isandlwana are in the province of Natal (actually now KwaZulu/Natal.

[curlyjim2550]

@ngiyaxolisa Thank you Friend. By hook or by crook I will make this trip of a lifetime.

I can't explain why these areas mean so much to me, but they do. I really want to see them.

[Patrick5009]

@curlyjim2550 Agreed. I too would love to see these battlefields. Ive often wondered if more men could have survived if they had dug in on the edge of mnqunyeni hill. Obviously they would need those ammunition boxes open. I read that one small group had gone up the slope but having run out of ammunition they made a bayonet charge into the thousands of Zulus. The Zulu account stated that this group had checked the advance. Had those men been properly supplied with ammo they may have held out

[curlyjim2550]

@Patrick5009 They may have held out for a while longer but the weapon of the conflict was not reliable enough.

The Martini Henry rifle used a black powder cartridge and was very prone to jamming solid when the barrel got hot due to the carbon build up in the breech. The troops had to use their bayonets to prise the spent cartridge out, not very convenient when you have hundreds of rather annoyed Zulu's bearing down on you. The extra ammunition wouldn't have made much difference sadly.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@curlyjim2550 Far fewer Boers fought many, many thousands of Zulu and annihilated them decades earlier at Blood River armed with only muzzle loading smooth bore muskets and a couple of tiny cannon. The difference was that at Isandlwana the British were initially deployed at fifteen foot intervals (skirmishing order) instead of in a single massed formation backed on the mountain.The defense perimeter was just too HUGE to be defended by only 800 regulars and 400+ auxiliaries

[curlyjim2550]

@ngiyaxolisa Spot on my friend, I totally agree and what you say is correct. If the British had formed a tight, defensive square, the outcome may have been very different. I wouldn't say that they could have annihilated the Zulu, but perhaps inflicted such punishing losses that they would have withdrawn. That said, my comments about the Martini Henry of the time are correct in that the thing was very prone to jamming solid.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@curlyjim2550 And it isn't as though Pulliene/Durnford , the officers commanding, didn't have adequate time to consider and implement a more effective defense as well. Exactly who was responsible for what will ever be a mystery. I've long been of the opinion that consistent bad luck and a series of unfortunate (for the British) events figured largely in the defeat (or "victory" to give the Zulu their due).

[curlyjim2550]

@ngiyaxolisa I blame Chelmsford myself for initially splitting his forces and going off in seach of the Zulu without adequate intelligence. He left the inexperienced Pulliene in charge and backed him up with Durnford who then promptly left the camp to check reports that the zulu had been spotted to the east. When Pulliene eventually got word that the Zulu had been found, he made the error of not forming that tight defensive perimeter and they were eventually overwhelmed.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@curlyjim2550 Umm, you seem to know more about this than average denizen around these parts, Curly. One might almost think you were a "ringer". Pulliene was, after all, the senior officer among those left behind (at least until Durnford arrived), so Chelmsford had little choice. That said, Glynn WAS the column commander.Perhaps he was the officer who should have commanded Dartnell's reinforcement while Chelmsford stayed at Isandlwana, behind the lines with his staff. where he belonged. con't

[ngiyaxolisa]

@ngiyaxolisa I'm not suggesting Glyn was at fault since his command of the central column had already been usurped by Chelmsford,, only that Chelmsford and Glyn shouldn't have gone together and left Pulliene, although not a combat officer not inexperienced, in charge of "the camp". Durnford should have known better, but the focus wasn't on Isandlwana any longer. It was at Mageni. The war had already moved across the plain or so the British thought to their embarrassment.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@ngiyaxolisa Comments seem to show up bass ackwards here, with responses posted in reverse. My second comment is obviously before my first ????. Hey, drop in anytime at rorkesdriftvc and tell them "Sawubona" sent you. That is if you're not already there under a different user name.

[curlyjim2550]

@ngiyaxolisa Haha.I'm no ringer my friend. I only know what I've read and what I've seen on the matter. I've been interested in military history since my early teens but this war has totally captivated me more than any other for some reason. I agree with your comments about Chelmsford and Glynn and as regards Pulleine, he wasn't an experienced field officer, his was more of an administerial role up until then. Still, many battles have been won in hindsight, but I still blame the senior command.

[Patrick5009]

@curlyjim2550 Agreed. I too would love to see these battlefields. Ive often wondered if more men could have survived if they had dug in on the edge of mnqunyeni hill. Obviously they would need those ammunition boxes open. I read that one small group had gone up the slope but having run out of ammunition they made a bayonet charge into the thousands of Zulus. The Zulu account stated that this group had checked the advance. Had those men been properly supplied with ammo they may have held out.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@Patrick5009 Curly, the way the story of how the remnants of Younghusband's company on the mountain died at Isandlwana is even better in the Zulu account.They say that when the British had finally run out of ammo and the firing had ceased, the Zulu paused at the command of their Induna while the redcoats shook hands all around . They then charged downhill to their deaths. Their leader's sword "flashed like the Sun" and blinded them. And so they died or that's how the Zulu still remember it.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@Patrick5009 Keep in mind, Curly, that the Martini was arguably the most sophisticated firearm of it's day (remember that twenty years later the US Army still carried an inferior rifle) . But being new there was no concept of it's capacity to p.ss through ammo. Each soldier carried 20 rounds in each of two pouches, ten loose rounds at his side and a further twenty in his pack (which they typically didn't carry). It was thought that that amount would be more than enough to whip the Zulu army.

[Wolfen443]

@ngiyaxolisa, so 50 rounds at hand and 20 extra if available make it 12,000 rounds give or take. The Zulus haqd such a massive numbers adb=vantage that even a fully supplied British force was bound to be force to retreat or face destruction. Adeded to to limited supplies, the forces were divided and the command either incompetent or not the best for the occasion. Zulus win either way with high losses anyhow even in the best scenario for the British. .

[ngiyaxolisa]

@Wolfen443 At Blood River (Ncome) over 40 years earlier, 470 MUSKET armed Boers (plus 200 "servants" and 2 tiny cannon) IN LAAGER defeated 10,000 to 20,000 Zulu inflicting some 3000 Zulu casualties at a cost of only 3 Boers wounded. 800+ soldiers pack 70 rounds each=some 60,000 at Isandlwana + regimental reserve. More than enough to do the job.

[Wolfen443]

@ngiyaxolisa, so the main reason remains still poor camanding decisions, then?. I guess that the Boers and British garrison at Rorke's Drift hadf the advantage of well defebded positions too.

[ngiyaxolisa]

@Wolfen443 I believe that it was poor command on the part of Chelmsford, Pulliene, and Durnford all based on overconfidence, insufficient scouting AND sheer bad luck. I also believe the Zulu might have overrun RD if they hadn't committed their vastly superior numbers in a piecemeal fashion--arrogance on their part. Just my opinions though. Monday morning quarterbacking LOL

[tillbodd]

Just returned from this magical area having heard Rob Gerrard spread the gospel of bravery and honour by many on both sides and the complete arrogance and stupidity of Chelsmford and his toadies. I know history depends on who wrote it but it felt like he was there at the time and I believe his is the most accurate account.

Anyone who loves South Africa and it's history must come here. They deserve better from us

ps

It's a shame the music on this clip is so tacky

[ngiyaxolisa]

Well remembered! Check out the video deriqu has linked to this one, please. It's quite good and gives a nice feel for the land thereabouts Rorke's Drift. I donated a goodly chunka ching to help get the "traditional village" at RD going as my humble "Thanks" for the welcome the locals gave me when I was there and it's good to see it pictured in a Youtube vid. .

[ImperialistRunningDo]

@ngiyaxolisa I would like to see Hlobane. On foot, of course. I don't think I'd want to try it on horseback...

[ngiyaxolisa]

@ImperialistRunningDo I'm sorry to say that I got to neither Hlobane nor Kambula. I'm not so sure I'd like to try Devil's Pass even on foot judging from the pictures I've seen! You can't help but pass by Gingindhlovu on the way to Isandlwana, but I gather there isn't much to see now-- it's in the middle of a private sugar cane field although the owner apparently freely allows visits. Hope you get to Hlobane, Imperial.

[notahemi]

Remember the Alamo.

Well, someone had to say it.

[canaerequiem]

Thats the trouble you see,when someone who has researched for years,the anglo zulu war,tries to impart knowledge,some spotty youth who has difficulty stringing two words together obviously knows better.

Listen to the man ffs,he knows what hes talking about,

bromhead,chard,cs bourne, etc etc were not welsh you silly boy,

go away.......read....ingest.....­.try to have an original thought beyond "mate",

then come back and beg our forgiveness.

[25114143]

Sigh ...(idiot). As you said the exact numbers are not written in stone so there is no part arguing about it. It seems that you are the one over-concerning yourself with where 'the defenders' were born.

[ngiyaxolisa]

"Exact numbers" meands just that-- the point is still obvious that the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment (the correct name for the 24th in 1879) was a diverse mix of soldiers from throughout the British Isles. I apologize if I seem to have an agenda beyond sharing my photos and my knowledge, but I am uncomfortable not responding to popular myths and unsupported opinions. Check my facts and figures please and let me know whenever I'm wrong, as I'm still learning.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Why is it so important to some where the defenders of RD and Isandlwana were born? Isn't it enough that they were by and large tough and brave men with their backs to the wall who fought and often died well? Need I add that the Zulu were no slouches when it came to courage as well? Let's not forget that thousands of them died at Isandlwana fighting in defense of their homeland and possibly as many as 600 more at Rorke's Drift.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Sigh... As you didn't read below, I'll repeat: At Rorke's Drift were 49 English, 18 Monmouthshiremen (Not part of Wales in 1879), 16 Irish, 14 Welsh, 1 Scot and 21 unknown. Look up the facts if you doubt them, although the exact numbers are not written in stone. The 24th was based in Brecon, Wales and was/is thought of as a Welsh Regiment even though Welshmen were a minority. ZULU is a movie and a great one, but not without errors. Maybe read a few more books about the AZW?

[welshwarriar]

i dont know who u r mate who made this video but those men at the battle of rorkes drift were all welsh mate and i think i know a bit more about it than you, and just like that other guy said, dont call it anglo because it was a british war not just enlgands, u english bastard!

[ngiyaxolisa]

Kindly see the breakdown I gave below: Among the generally accepted list of defenders of Rorke's Drift, 14 were of Welsh birth. There were more Irish! Typically called "The Zulu War" in the past, the invasion of Zululand and its consequences are now universally referred to as "The Anglo-Zulu War of 1879". If you want to call it something like the "Welsh-Zulu War", go for it! I'm not English, just an avid student of the conflict who is willing to share my knowledge.

[welshwarriar]

"welsh birth", i can tell your not british, u aint got a clue mate.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Whatever....

[glynamus]

fact is, the army was blinded by thier own gunsmoke. a eclips of the sun turn day into night and the army just couldnt see the enemy. the enemy was high on a mixture they drank to make them see red and fight bravely. zulu meth!

[ngiyaxolisa]

Not "facts", but rather theories suggested in one particular TV documentary. It was only a partial eclipse that day which went unnoticed , the defenders were initially in open order and practiced strict fire discipline so gunsmoke only became an issue at the very end and the Zulu may have taken drugs, but certainly didn't need them to "fight bravely".

[ruthio1]

anglo zulu wars but the music is men of harlech . Harlech is in wales and the soldiers at rourkes drift were mostly welsh. The is nothing anglo or saxon about harlech purely celtic

[ngiyaxolisa]

Mostly true, although the title and lyrics of the song are in a language descended directly from Anglo-Saxon, as is your comment.

[ngiyaxolisa]

For purists and those interested, of the defenders of Rorke's Drift (note that there's no "u" in the name) 49 were English, 18 Monmouthshire, 16 Irish, 1 Scottish, 14 Welsh and 21 of unknown nationality. The 24th was however based in Brecon, Wales so they are often thought of as a "Welsh Regiment". Although not heavily of Welsh blood, it's correct that the defenders were strongly of Celtic descent.

[MethaneDuck44]

OMFG! at 0:25 is that Rob caskey the tour guide for the fuigitives drift lodge?

[ngiyaxolisa]

Although I "did' Isandlwana with Rob, that's David Rattry at Rorke's Drift at 0.25 and Rob Gerrard of Isandlwana Lodge in a couple of the other RD pics.

[tooneythekeeper]

didnt you realise that was the spin left upon the battle by chelmsford . I watched a documenrty on the real battle, the battle plan was to skirmish in the open field a few miles from the camp.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Chelmsford's orders to Col. Pulleine as quoted byMajor Clery at the Court of Enquiry into the Isandlwana disaster: "You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn (commander of the 24th); Draw in your camp or your line of defense while the force is out; also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly, but keep your cavalry videttes still far advanced." Doesn't sound to me like an order to skirmish in the open field a few miles from the camp.

[tooneythekeeper]

IS was a complete suprise attack. As 2/3 of the britsh army went looking for the army as they seen some zuluz (lure) . This left the other force vulnerable and the zuluz attacked in all their numbers. The british lost due to chelmsfords ignorance, he gave them orders to defend in a specific way (which was very very poor) and instead should have defended directly infornt og the camp, condensing there fire. With poor tactics, the zulu numbers overwhelmed the thin red line and killed all.

[ngiyaxolisa]

The order left by Lord Chelmsford (or his staff officer) was simply "to defend the camp" without any details of how best to accomplish this. It would have been the responsibility of the camp's commanding officer, either Durnford or Pulliene depending on who you favor, to determine disposition of the men for the defense. Poor tactics did result in disaster as you say, whoever ordered them.

[TheRealColey]

Pvt 801 Thomas Cole RIP

Cymru am Byth

[ngiyaxolisa]

Now that's interesting remark! There's obviously more to you than just an amateur fan of the movie Zulu, Coley, and the Gaelic suggests you're Welsh. Was "Old King" Cole an ancestor?

[TheRealColey]

You sussed me out! He was my Grandfathers great great uncle.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Well then... If you haven't had the chance yet to visit his grave to see it for yourself, I happy to say that it's well cared for. His name is (of course) on that white monument in the vid. Amazingly enough, the inscribing was done by a soldier who was a stonemason in civilian life using a bayonet since no masonry tools were about. The "hospital" building replaced the one that was burned, but it matches the original. The door pictured was the one that Cole was dragged out through and speared.

[TheRealColey]

I havent been to see it, though I would love to one day. Thanks for the information and for posting the video. Much appreciated.

[donno54]

i heard there were only 250 mexicans at the Alamo lol Dont u badmouth our British Army ,mate, Rorkes Drift was a bloody fine action Other soldiers wouldve ran

[ngiyaxolisa]

Let's not forget the Zulu as well. The British were defending because they had to while the Zulu were attacking because they chose to-- in spite of the fact they were suffering horrendous casualties and two of the amabutho (regiments) were made up of men in their late 40's and early to middle 50's!

[Teutgard]

The battle of Rorke's Drift is the most ENORMOUS BULLSHIT of the history of the British Army.

If they were really "4,000 Zulu warriors against 139 Redcoats", the Brits would have been all killed.

In reality, they were only 600 Zulus, some of which had outdated flintlock muskets, against 150 British -of which, only 9 were so "ill" not to be able to defend themselves. The Brits had all MARTINY-HENRY RIFLES, with 20,000 rounds of ammunition; 19,000 were spent.

Only 370 Zulus were killed.

[ngiyaxolisa]

Interesting theory! I've never heard that before nor read it anywhere else and if true, we've got to admire the Zulu for continuing to attack when two thirds of them are already dead and the rest must surely all be wounded! I did read in Sheldon Hall's book "ZULU" that the movie ZULU was filmed with only 600 Zulu extras and not the 4000 claimed in its promotional posters and handouts. That's a curious coincidence, isn't it? What's your source for your information?

[LazlosPlane]

"Only" 600? Gee, I feel so... used...

How brown would your pants be if you were one of 150 against 600? Rather brown, I'd say.

[Teutgard]

Think for YOURSELF

You brits believe in an enormours mass of jingoistic FANTASIES, if you really believe that "100 Brits" resisted against "4,000 Zulus" -COMMON SENSE, and normal experience of military things, REFUSES such a bombastic invention.

[LazlosPlane]

Calm down, clownie.

First, I'm no Brit. I'm a Yank. New York City Yank so if you want to f*** with me, I'm more than ready.

Two, common sense tells me you are one angry dude and could probably use a shrink, and some form of drug therapy.

Three, it would be nice if you could name ONE FUCKING SOURCE of your information. (other than, "the neighbor's dog told me...")

Yikes.

[ngiyaxolisa]

You've made another mistake, Teutgard- I'm not a Brit, just a Yank who's studied the Anglo-Zulu War for almost four decades. Read about the "Battle" of Blood River, please. 10,000 to 20,000 Zulu attacked 464 Boers who were armed with smoothbore muskets and in a wagon laager. When it was over, the Zulu dead numbered over 3000 and the Boer dead numbered O (ZERO! NADA! NONE!). The Boers did however have three men slightly wounded. Or is that battle a "bombastic invention" as well?

[bbgrty]

teutgard - you have no idea what you are talking about. to be honest i reckon 600 vs 150 would have been a good job done anyway, but if took all day for 24,000 Zulus (the whole Zulu army) to defeat 800 unentrenched Brits at Isandlhwana then I reckon it's about right 4000 Zulus would have struggled at Rorke's Drift. get some envy pills.

[Teutgard]

HA HA HA

You can think what you want, your fantasies remains inside the boundaries of Britain.

BUFFOONS, RACIST AND TOTAL INVENTORS OF LIES!

[219970]

"it took all day" - well, the battle (jn the sense of the british firing line being engaged) lasted no more than an hour, so not sure how this is all day mate? Also, RD and IS were entirely different battles. At RD the british were behind entrenchments, which gave them a height advantage and the hand to hand fighting was limited (most of the Zulus were killed by bullets). At IS, there were no entrenchments since it was a surprise attack. Perhaps read a bit more about the facts and learn?

[Guyisaritelegend]

I think my great great great uncle fought at uluru or something like that, is that in the same war? (Also I loved to movie)

[ngiyaxolisa]

Possibly Ulundi (now more commonly called Odini)? The final battle of the Anglo-Zulu War & fought at the Zulu capital on July 4th, 1879,it was a costly defeat for the Zulu and the site of what was the only monument in honor of Zulu dead in that war for many, many years. "In memory of those who gave their lives in defense of the Old Zulu Order".

[Crintingnut]

Having just re-watched Zulu, I found this interesting. Do you know if the Baker/Caine film was actually filmed there? Scenery looks similar.

[ngiyaxolisa]

No, Baker wanted to film at the real Rorke's Drift, but it was still an active mission in 1963 and they wouldn't allow it. ZULU was filmed at Royal Natal National Park about two hours drive to the West of this. Check my other video of "ZULU location" with some pics I took of the site at RNNP. The Drakensberg, in the background all through the movie, is absolutely awsome in real life!

[monsmoy]

fantastic

[LordWellington15]

cool