I think the most aggrevating part of any young earther's "we're the correct religion" argument is the relative youth of their own branch of the faith in comparison to say Judaism.
freedom0f5peech is right, theTRUTHgroup. By saying your "No True Christian" argument is not a "No True Scottsman" fallacy by repeating the error of the fallacy is called "Special Pleading". It is most certainly possible to lose faith, as in "They have fallen away" as is mentioned in the bible. And it's possible to become completely areligious without becomming an atheist. An areligious person, like myself, *knows* and *believes* {all} religions are, simply put, wrong.
The no true Scotsman fallacy is well defined. He wasn't trying to paint himself as right, he is correcting your error. Wikipedia has an excellent short summary of this fallacy... you should read it.
To be honest that would be arrogant. However, this is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you've completely and utterly misunderstood the fallacy. It would be like making a video entitled "Straw men" and then trying to disprove evolution, thereby disproving atheism. Do you see how the logic does not follow?
I hate to badger, but I've received no response from you. I did not make this as a "pwnage" video. I honestly want a response from you. Please, if you could elaborate more on your disagreement I would be appreciative.
Nope, we're not moving any goalposts, we're just taking them out of the hands of men.
God set the goalposts and he laid it out for us in his Word.
We're not trying to debate any of the man-made versions of Christianity.
Denominationalism is not a Biblical stand.
We're merely talking about what God tells us in his Word.
A Christian is a Christian based on God's Word. It doesn't matter what you or I believe about it. I didn't make this stuff up. You can read it for yourself.
"1) Christian Faith is not something you can lose.
2) There are those who have lost faith in Christ.
A) Therefore, they were never Christians."
RyuDarragh
That is the, "No tTue Scotsman" Fallacy.
Furthermore you've missed the point. Quakers could just as easily state that you're missing the point of the Bible. They could say that they are following the true word of the bible, and that you are not.
I'm an ex Christian. I believed in god, felt his presence then realized that my experiences were psychosomatic. You've missed the point yet again. I understand you are not trying to be offensive, so please understand that I am not trying to be either.
The definition of the word "Christian" that I have found do not require that one knows Christ. It's impossible, he's dead. Using your logic, it's impossible, because you've never shook his hand. Why? Because you don't know someone until...
What theTRUTHgroup fails to understand is that there are Christians who have made the EXACT same claim--that they know absolutely because of some "divine experience" or what have you that Jesus is real and Christianity is right, but have changed their mind about it--Google "Dan Barker". I would challenge anyone from theTRUTHgroup to read Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" before you dismiss what you don't understand.
You can assert that you "know" you are a "real Christian" all you want, but the fact remains that you have no basis for that claim to knowledge. I've noticed that the Christians who most loudly assert this are usually trying to cover up their own doubts about the religion. Why would someone be so motivated to insist they have absolute certainty about something that very well might all be in their head? It is their own insecurity that motivates them.
You don't KNOW the real god; your relationship is one where you talk to yourself & to your invisible placebo, your imaginary friend. I like the placebo relationship so much that you don't find a reason to question it & you believe that backsliders & non-believers will be tortured in hell! And you make a video where you smirk & joke about how many people you believe are going to hell while they think they're not.
...cont... you've shaken their hand. The problem is you're trying to say that out of a diverse group of many people, who all believe that they fit into the group(some more than others), that you have the true meaning of the group, and that you are more correct than millions of others who could use scripture to prove you wrong.
I have a video in the works elaborating this point, so I'm sorry if this seems incomplete.
jesuriah -- another way you might put it is like this. If we take theTRUTHgroup's definition of a "true Christian" as someone who actually has a real relationship with Jesus Christ, then there is no possible way of knowing if anyone is a Christian or not, not even when it comes to yourself! And if Christianity is not the truth, then according to theTRUTHgroup's own definition there is no such thing as a Christian, since Jesus isn't real and people can't have a relationship with him.
Yeah, someone told me that they knew Jesus was real because they had a relationship with him. I asked them for a picture and possibly an address. I asked them when Jesus came back from Heaven, and why we hadn't heard about it yet. What is even more ludicrous than this though, are the people who say, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship". I've never heard a more dishonest statement from a theist....In my entire life...
In your bible quote where it talks about jesus abiding with you FOREVER, it doesn't mean that jesus chooses to abide only with those that he knows (from precognition) will be a believer 'til death. With your logic, I could say that kids with imaginary friends never really talked to their imaginary friend since they later on grew up & stopped talking to them.
I thought the "no true scottsman" fallacy was exluding an example or assertation by redefining the example or assertation in such a way as to invalidate it's inclusion in the assertations.
1) Christian Faith is not something you can lose.
2) There are those who have lost faith in Christ.
I think the most aggrevating part of any young earther's "we're the correct religion" argument is the relative youth of their own branch of the faith in comparison to say Judaism.
drakocarrion 1 year ago
"Ok smartass stop being smarter than me...smartypants. "
lol :D
i cant view the vio on this cumber at the molment but ill be sure to check this video out later ;)
anyway to be totally irrelivant to this video ..u gotta shave :o
Noodled101 2 years ago
freedom0f5peech is right, theTRUTHgroup. By saying your "No True Christian" argument is not a "No True Scottsman" fallacy by repeating the error of the fallacy is called "Special Pleading". It is most certainly possible to lose faith, as in "They have fallen away" as is mentioned in the bible. And it's possible to become completely areligious without becomming an atheist. An areligious person, like myself, *knows* and *believes* {all} religions are, simply put, wrong.
RyuDarragh 2 years ago
Plbtpptblpptbl :P~~
RyuDarragh 2 years ago
Is it any less arrogant for you to say that I'm wrong and you're the one who's right?
theTRUTHgroup 2 years ago
The no true Scotsman fallacy is well defined. He wasn't trying to paint himself as right, he is correcting your error. Wikipedia has an excellent short summary of this fallacy... you should read it.
freedom0f5peech 2 years ago
Wikipedia can be edited by any idiot
Noodled101 2 years ago
To be honest that would be arrogant. However, this is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you've completely and utterly misunderstood the fallacy. It would be like making a video entitled "Straw men" and then trying to disprove evolution, thereby disproving atheism. Do you see how the logic does not follow?
jesuriah 2 years ago
Ha! That's awesome. Not only wouldn't it disprove atheism, but it also wouldn't be a strawman. Very subtle jesuriah!
h8uall66 2 years ago
I have my moments
jesuriah 2 years ago
I hate to badger, but I've received no response from you. I did not make this as a "pwnage" video. I honestly want a response from you. Please, if you could elaborate more on your disagreement I would be appreciative.
jesuriah 2 years ago
Nope, we're not moving any goalposts, we're just taking them out of the hands of men.
God set the goalposts and he laid it out for us in his Word.
We're not trying to debate any of the man-made versions of Christianity.
Denominationalism is not a Biblical stand.
We're merely talking about what God tells us in his Word.
A Christian is a Christian based on God's Word. It doesn't matter what you or I believe about it. I didn't make this stuff up. You can read it for yourself.
theTRUTHgroup 2 years ago
"1) Christian Faith is not something you can lose.
2) There are those who have lost faith in Christ.
A) Therefore, they were never Christians."
RyuDarragh
That is the, "No tTue Scotsman" Fallacy.
Furthermore you've missed the point. Quakers could just as easily state that you're missing the point of the Bible. They could say that they are following the true word of the bible, and that you are not.
Do you understand the point I'm trying to make?
jesuriah 2 years ago
Well, of course I understand what you're 'trying' to say.
But, the problem is...
you can't comprehend what I'm actually saying.
I don't mean that as an insult.
It's just that you're incapable of understanding what I'm talking about because you don't have an experiential knowledge of it.
I have no problem agreeing with others, such as Quakers, on the authority of scripture.
As long as we both know that the Bible is correct while we each may be wrong about certain individual interpretations.
theTRUTHgroup 2 years ago
Oh yeah, by the way...
Your #2 up above should be changed to: "There are those who 'claim' to have lost faith in Christ".
theTRUTHgroup 2 years ago
I'm an ex Christian. I believed in god, felt his presence then realized that my experiences were psychosomatic. You've missed the point yet again. I understand you are not trying to be offensive, so please understand that I am not trying to be either.
The definition of the word "Christian" that I have found do not require that one knows Christ. It's impossible, he's dead. Using your logic, it's impossible, because you've never shook his hand. Why? Because you don't know someone until...
jesuriah 2 years ago
I understand that you had a psychosomatic experience that you call Christianity.
I assure you, though, your case is not the same as mine.
I know the real God and have a real relationship with Him.
There's no way that I can convey that to you in words, so arguing about it is beyond silly.
I would suggest that you start digging into the Bible and learn more about the prophecies contained within.
Only God could write a book that accurately foretells the future.
Put Him to the test.
theTRUTHgroup 2 years ago
What theTRUTHgroup fails to understand is that there are Christians who have made the EXACT same claim--that they know absolutely because of some "divine experience" or what have you that Jesus is real and Christianity is right, but have changed their mind about it--Google "Dan Barker". I would challenge anyone from theTRUTHgroup to read Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" before you dismiss what you don't understand.
TheMathGuy 2 years ago
You can assert that you "know" you are a "real Christian" all you want, but the fact remains that you have no basis for that claim to knowledge. I've noticed that the Christians who most loudly assert this are usually trying to cover up their own doubts about the religion. Why would someone be so motivated to insist they have absolute certainty about something that very well might all be in their head? It is their own insecurity that motivates them.
TheMathGuy 2 years ago
You don't KNOW the real god; your relationship is one where you talk to yourself & to your invisible placebo, your imaginary friend. I like the placebo relationship so much that you don't find a reason to question it & you believe that backsliders & non-believers will be tortured in hell! And you make a video where you smirk & joke about how many people you believe are going to hell while they think they're not.
Boxcutter7 2 years ago
...cont... you've shaken their hand. The problem is you're trying to say that out of a diverse group of many people, who all believe that they fit into the group(some more than others), that you have the true meaning of the group, and that you are more correct than millions of others who could use scripture to prove you wrong.
I have a video in the works elaborating this point, so I'm sorry if this seems incomplete.
jesuriah 2 years ago
jesuriah -- another way you might put it is like this. If we take theTRUTHgroup's definition of a "true Christian" as someone who actually has a real relationship with Jesus Christ, then there is no possible way of knowing if anyone is a Christian or not, not even when it comes to yourself! And if Christianity is not the truth, then according to theTRUTHgroup's own definition there is no such thing as a Christian, since Jesus isn't real and people can't have a relationship with him.
TheMathGuy 2 years ago
Yeah, someone told me that they knew Jesus was real because they had a relationship with him. I asked them for a picture and possibly an address. I asked them when Jesus came back from Heaven, and why we hadn't heard about it yet. What is even more ludicrous than this though, are the people who say, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship". I've never heard a more dishonest statement from a theist....In my entire life...
jesuriah 2 years ago
In your bible quote where it talks about jesus abiding with you FOREVER, it doesn't mean that jesus chooses to abide only with those that he knows (from precognition) will be a believer 'til death. With your logic, I could say that kids with imaginary friends never really talked to their imaginary friend since they later on grew up & stopped talking to them.
Boxcutter7 2 years ago
I thought the "no true scottsman" fallacy was exluding an example or assertation by redefining the example or assertation in such a way as to invalidate it's inclusion in the assertations.
1) Christian Faith is not something you can lose.
2) There are those who have lost faith in Christ.
A) Therefore, they were never Christians.
RyuDarragh 2 years ago
Ok smartass stop being smarter than me...smartypants.
jesuriah 2 years ago