Miracles

[GreezBackOff]

hey randall, you should really check out my moms ministry!!

"Abrahams house".

its a christ centered non-profit organization.

it really is something..

check out the website, and any promotion would be greatly appreciated.

the end times are near and i believe god has a massive plan ahead for our family. the end is near....... -gray munger

[jfinite]

If god can counteract the laws he established at any moment, then what good are the laws? If truly ANYTHING is possible, then at any point in time we can expect water to turn into wine, seas to part, universes to spring up out of nothing, etc.

What is a miracle? If it's possible for water to turn into wine, then that moves that action from the realm of impossibility to possible, yes? So that's no longer a miracle, right?

[jfinite]

What in the world does this statement mean? 'If you believe in special creation, miracles are possible'. You mean because a person believes something, it changes the fundamental properties of the universe???

Everything you do operates within the law of gravity. Picking up a rock does not 'defeat' the law or invalidate it in any way. Your point here is mystifying.

[izaakrs]

You've missed the point that Hume is trying to make. He is not claiming that miracles definitely don't happen, but that it is irrational to believe that they do.

It is more likely that one of our barbarous ancestors was mistaken when they thought they saw a bloke walk around on water (or were told about a bloke walking around on water) than for the event to have actually occurred.

[joygarner]

turns out, the "laws of nature" aren't truly understood, so maybe 'miracles" are just another part of natural law.

[successpayswell]

What information do you have for the rise of jesus from the dead and those facts pertaining to jesus being the son of god? I have tried to wrap my mind around this and maybe you can lead me to a video or provide an answer that makes sense to me. I understand he lived about 2000 years ago but how can you rationalize that he was the son of god and only through him can you have everlasting life? The virgin Mary is another one that is hard to wrap my mind around.

[MavericKLongRange]

brilliant! nice video

[Liemann]

Religion is bullshit.

[reflect7]

What do you believe in?

[Liemann]

Religion is just a way to control people, how are people not getting this? Scientific proof, and I'll believe anything. Nothing personal, but the Americans are no better than the Taliban. Both dragging their gods into the mix. Both of which has never done anything for them by the way.. But if you wanna believe that there is an invisible man or whatever up in the sky, go right ahead. But don't hurt people over some made up bullshit.

[Riste1986]

Religion is to control people, right .And science is good to scary people to death about end of world and hitting meteor into earth. Are you listening to yourself???? And its not SOME MAN up there it`s GOD The one who create you so you can talk against him now. If you believe in science you should get ready for 2012 it`s the end of the world they say HAHA.

[Liemann]

In case you haven't figured that out it's the fanatics that claim 2012 is the end of the world, not science.. Whether or not these fanatics are religious in any way i'll leave unsaid.

[yantski]

Religion IS bullshit! But faith in God, and a relationship with Him is what it's all about. Religion is really a distraction from the true purpose of faithful living. Weak faith needs religion to comfort and protect. Stong faith needs nothing more than a relationship with God for comfort and protection.

With all the hypocracy and religious crap handed down through the ages, it is understandable why people turn away from God. I believe those who are responsible, will have to account for it.

[Chemistryisthegame]

@reflect7 Nothing.

[Chemistryisthegame]

@reflect7 Nothing. Do you know anything about the universe you live in?

[Riste1986]

LOL you are soooo wrong my brother.

[bigwhammyRocks]

All you've done is use ad hominem attacks to try and misrepresent my education & language skills and offered no real rebuttals to the my claim. Nice display of how pure arrogance and logical fallacy meet to form the bastard child known as atheism.

[TrenchantAtheist]

Well you wouldn't be a Hypochristian, bigwhammy, if you didn't fit all of the criticisms you lay against me. Good job for keeping up your end of the deal.

Ad hominems, by the way, are when insults are used in lieu of argumentation. I made my argument, and then I provided the insult. That isn't an ad hominem. Logic 101, in case you missed it.

[bigwhammyRocks]

If miracles are not possible then why is there something rather than nothing. The best cosmology evidence is that the universe expanded from nothing .

[TrenchantAtheist]

bigwhammyRocks asked, "If miracles are not possible then why is there something rather than nothing. The best cosmology evidence is that the universe expanded from nothing."

Ugh. No. Science says no such thing. Please read scientific works fully, and not just the parts you find convenient to support your epistemology.

[bigwhammyRocks]

Oh I have... they fail... and w/o appealing to canards like imaginary time - the universe came from nothing.

[TrenchantAtheist]

bigwhammyRocks said, "Oh I have... they fail."

Right, without any formal education or training in physics, you can summarily disprove all of scientific academia by imagining in your head that you know what you're talking about.

bigwhammyRocks said, "the universe came from nothing."

That may be YOUR belief, but that isn't what science says. If you want to prove that the universe came from nothing, then do so.

[bigwhammyRocks]

Oh you make huge assumptions don't you? Pure arrogance only goes so far because I do have formal training at one of the top technical universities.

And "what science says" ? ROFL is "science" now an entity that speaks to you in your dreams?

No - there are varying opinions and all are conjectures. But the consensus based on evidence and not philosophy- is a singularity which is a point of infinite density - which is by definition non existent.

[TrenchantAtheist]

bigwhammyRocks,

I have no reason to believe your claim about your profession until you can demonstrate the basic literacy skills necessary to pass a college course. None of the leading scientific explanations claims that "something came from nothing" as you have stated.

It is one thing for me to claim that your god is imaginary, and it is quite another to claim that YOU think your god is imaginary. If you want anyone to take you seriously, then properly represent the ideas you disagree with.

[bigwhammyRocks]

Whooops ...

There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing. ~George Smoot Nobel Prize winner COBE Sattelite Project Team

[TrenchantAtheist]

bwR, clearly you are incapable of carrying on this conversation in an intelligent manner because you have repeatedly demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge on the subject in which you claim to be formally educated (by a nameless "top" school).

This is, of course, made much worse by the fact that your style of argumentation is neither consistent nor mature (your claims have already contradicted each other, apparently without you realizing it). This is laughable beyond words. Have a nice day.

[TrenchantAtheist]

bigwhammyRocks said, "But the consensus based on evidence and not philosophy- is a singularity which is a point of infinite density - which is by definition non existent."

This is a gross oversimplification, a school yard definition at best, which seeks to misrepresent the ideas entailed. You might as well be arguing that gravity says, "What goes up must come down", and therefore interplanetary rockets disprove gravity.

[somecomputergeek]

Miracles happen. Just last night a witch turned my dog into a toad.

[sumwhatparanoid]

I have heard many stories from different people saying that God had healed them. Healed from cancer and other illnesses, even raised from the dead. But I dont think I have ever heard anyone say that God healed their amputated arms or legs. Why do you think that is?

[teddyhcraig]

I like the point you made about the rock. By picking it up and throwing it you're most certainly able to contradict the law of gravity for a moment in time; however, you as a human being an not able to extent that contradiction out of yourself to a prolonged period of time. But, with God, He can throw the rock up and make it stick in the air forever.

It just proves, once again, only God can do it permanently. Just as He alone is the only one who can establish a truly enduring shalom in Israel.

[richie3622]

"What makes you think that miracles are possible?"

"Because God could, by definition, defy the laws of nature."

"Why do you think there's a God?"

"Because miracles are possible."

That's what I got out of this. Circular reasoning.

[teddyhcraig]

I believe, that there's a God, because this great miracle of His hands in which I exist (the heavens and the earth themselves) show me that; it's the handywork of the divine carpenter. It's the building, both designed and constructed, by He who is the divine builder. Show me a house without a builder; not one exists! Every house has one!

And I believe that, since He put in place all laws of nature, He is able to defy any and all of them at will; thus making miracles today exceedingly possible.

[richie3622]

How do you not understand how absurdly circular that is?

[teddyhcraig]

How do you not understand how absurdly ignorant it sounds when anyone, looking at all that's around them, says that it all happened by random chance or of itself?

Every single house on my street, just like every single one where you are, was build by someone. Not one of them, at any time, just sprouted up out of the ground randomly; and, not a single one of them ever built itself.

The universe is more complicated than any house, that has ever been built, it is absurd to say it built itself.

[richie3622]

I do understand how absurd it sounds to claim that you know 1) that objective existence has a cause, 2) the cause is an intelligent being, and 3) the intelligent being is the dogmatic deity of a specific religion.

Science doesn't claim to know ALL the answers.

You are way, way, WAY behind on the actual debate between atheists and theists.

Comparing nature to a house is invalid. We KNOW a house is built by intelligence because we created and observe the process of building a house.

[teddyhcraig]

So you believe that man has to create something, and that he has to observe the process of that something being built, for it to be considered as having been made by an intelligent creator? I have heard this kind of reasoning before.

After the resurrection of Christ, Thomas basically stated the same thing, until Christ was standing right before him. I'm sure that it will be the same, with most atheists, who won't believe until they see Him. I will see you, sir, at the judgment seat of Christ!

[richie3622]

In other words, you're backpedaling out because you're in over your head with me.

And to clarify, to believe that the universe was created by an intelligent being, you would need to prove that it is *necessary* for that to be so.

Even if you manage to do that, you still lose, because all you would prove is intelligent design - arbitrarily slapping on the attributes of a deity with DOGMA makes absolutely 0 sense.

Enjoy living in your box!

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddy asked, "How do you not understand how absurdly ignorant it sounds when anyone says that it all happened by random chance or of itself?"

How do you not understand how absurdly ignorant it sound when you say that the only two possibilities are "random chance" and "of itself"?

The goal of design is simplicity, not complexity. Human designs are complex because we are not omnipotent. If God designed the infinitely-complex universe, then he is infinitely limited, which means he isn't a god.

[teddyhcraig]

Either it was created (designed and constructed) by someone who is outside of it and greater than all of it, or it just popped into existence out of nowhere and of nothing, or it was created of itself.

I have never, not once, seen any created thing come out of nowhere and out of nothingness; so, that theory's invalid. I have never, even once, seen any created thing create itself; so, that theory's also invalid. But, I have seen many things created by creators; thus proving that theory as fact!

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig,

Let me correct you on several things here:

Though the Big Bang does not say that "something came from nothing", it remains a logical fallacy to claim that something is impossible simply because you haven't seen it happen. If that weren't true, then I could simply claim I've never seen a miracle, and that God is therefore incapable of performing them.

You said, "I have never seen any created thing create itself"

"Created thing"? You're already assuming we were created?

[TrenchantAtheist]

In order to make a logically coherent argument, you must avoid using your presupposition as a conclusion. To say, "created things don't create themselves" is to make a tautological statement, which neither proves anything, nor adds any new information to the argument.

But as far as things being created naturally or "by themselves": snow flakes, amino acids, rows of magnets. These things order themselves with no external input, and without intelligence.

[teddyhcraig]

Snow flakes would not exist without water, and, water did not create itself; and the same is true of amino acids and of magnets. But, unless God helps you see it, you won't be able to believe! My words, alone, won't convince you!

So like I said to your friend, whom I stopped replying to, I say now to you also. No matter what I say to you, no matter what reply I make to you, it won't change your mind. And you won't change my mind, because I have experienced Yahhoshua, so I will leave it at that.

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig said, "water did not create itself"

Yes, water did create itself. Hydrogen and Oxygen are the two most common elements in the universe, and their common stable state is a water molecule.

If you're asking where the universe came from, then you should examine the theories that science has to offer -- none of your statements have reflected their position at all. You need to investigate what science says before you can claim they're wrong.

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddhcraig said, "No matter what I say to you, no matter what reply I make to you, it won't change your mind."

No, again you are wrong. I am open to the possibility of God's existence, so long as you can provide any logically-coherent argument. Thus far, you have not. You don't win arguments by showing that you have more ignorance than the other guy, which is why your ignorance of science is not convincing to anyone who understands it.

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig,

You can tell yourself whatever you want in order to sleep at night, but in the end, closed-minded people such as yourself are losing out.

Again, I am open to the possibility of God, so long as you can simply make a logically-coherent argument. That's all you have to do, and it isn't hard. I have a few places for you to start, if you wanted to, but that's only if you're willing to listen to my suggestions.

[teddyhcraig]

The arguments have already been made.

The only way that you, or anyone else, will ever come to see that God exists and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him; the only way that can happen, is the only way it has in the past, which is God Himself revealing that truth to you personally.

Until that happens you will never be absolutely positive; you will never fully believe that truth. There is nothing I can say or do, of myself, to give you that absolute certainty. God alone must do that!

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig said, "God alone must do that! "

If you truly believed that a connection with God was ONLY personal, then why do you ever bother making arguments that you know are logically incoherent and unconvincing? Why does God need your help?

If a connection with God is only personal, then you don't need to be here. This is a conversation between me and Him, and you can see your way out of it.

Or, you could just try to be productive and make a logical argument -- not based in ignorance.

[TrenchantAtheist]

Finally, let me add something else:

You say that you have experienced Yahhoshua as your final proof of His existence, so I ask you, as someone who is open to the possibility of a god's existence ... why should I not hold that as a standard for myself?

If that's what it took in order for you to believe fully, then how can you criticize someone else for doing the same thing?

[teddyhcraig]

Yes, do that.

But understand that God is not a circus act, He is not a side show freak or a clown, He isn't going to perform for you to amuse you. You can't come to Him, like that, that approach to Him doesn't work!

Read His Word, examine the Word of God for yourself, and then when you come to Him by, and ask with, faith He will hear your prayer and you will be sure. I know that, because, that is how I came to believe. It's not a way, of many ways, it's the way He has set forth in His Word.

[TrenchantAtheist]

You said, "But, I have seen many things created by creators; thus proving that theory as fact!"

WHOA, stop right there. Facts and theories are different things, not rungs on a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data, theories are the ideas that explain them.

"Some apples are red" is a fact.

"Some apples are red BECAUSE of electromagnetic waves" is a theory.

A theory will never be a fact, no matter how true it is. They describe different things altogether.

[teddyhcraig]

Does not science itself state that it works to prove theories through testing them, through proving a theory out by being able to duplicate that theory, because the only one of those I see that has been duplicated over and over (on a day to day basis) is the third.

Every house, car, watch; every single thing in your life, that has been created by someone, is a validation of that theory. How many times do you need it to be validated before you believe that it's the truth! It exists of a Creator.

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig asked, "Does not science itself state that it works to prove theories through testing them?"

No. Science does not work to prove "good" ideas, it works to disprove "bad" ideas. Many different theories can explain the same set of data, but science can only eliminate those theories which fail to be logically cohesive with the facts entailed.

teddyhcraig said, "the only one of those I see is the third"

The third isn't a "theory" (it fails every requirement to become one)

[TrenchantAtheist]

teddyhcraig said, "Every single thing in your life has been created by someone"

Yes, and every cited thing has been created because of limits that prevented us from achieving our goals without them. Complexity grows out of a lack of omnipotence. If God created biological life (if he HAD to use something so complicated as DNA to make it all work), then he did so because nothing simpler could achieve his goals.

[Leiflton]

yeah, what's easier, creating the heavens and the earth and the sea....or merely dividing the waters as with Moses...

the only reason many miracles arent done now is because we are a faithless and perverse generation....

Jesus says "nevertheless when the son of man returns, shall he yet find faith on the earth."

the world conditions us to be faithless, and we don't even need that much faith, only as "a mustard seed"

[smpunditz]

All you did for the first half of this video was presuppose God created the universe because a bronze age fantasy novel notorious for it's contradictions and historical errors says so. Then used that as evidence for miracles which are also found in that very same book. Congradulations you just mastered circular reasoning.

[smpunditz]

It's funny how there are no miracles that actually defy the laws of nature.

[teddyhcraig]

Every time someone is sick unto death, and then they are prayed for and recover (with the prayer of faith spoken of in James 5:15), every single one of those instances defy the laws of nature.

When I was in Church, and they prayed for me and I was the one being healed, that personally for me was a violation of the laws of nature by God! And I thank Him every single day that He has, does, and will violate those laws for those who are His by grace and through faith. His violating them is my joy!

[smpunditz]

"Every time someone is sick unto death, and then they are prayed for and recover (with the prayer of faith spoken of in James 5:15), every single one of those instances defy the laws of nature."

Yeah the same thing happens when muslims pray. So Allah's real too.

[davemuscato]

As I understand it, Allah = Yahweh = God. They're all Abrahamic; Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the same god. The basic difference is that Jews don't believe Jesus was the Christ (and are still waiting for him to come), Christians believe he was (but was killed and will come again some day - a second coming), and Muslims believe Jesus was just a prophet, and that Muhammad was another prophet with even more to say about how we are supposed to worship God and live our lives.

[shiningcross]

The problem is that certain scientists forget that when debating such things, they can no longer use scientific principles to the extent they usually do.

For example, just because every we jump up and find gravity pulling us back down and can test this over and over for what seems like an infinite amount of times DOESN'T mean that gravity always and forever HAS to behave this way.

What I'm saying is, ANYTHING is possible right now based simply by the fact that we do not know everything.

[shiningcross]

It's no different than Uniformitarianism. Science, for the most party, assumes that the natural processes that operated in the past are the same as those that can be observed operating in the present and so on.

When you really think about Uniformitarianism, it's no different than having a set faith that what happened or has happened is what is probably going to happen. People live their lives and nothing ever happens to them so they just can't see how anything ever will. It's a mind game.

[someone060288]

First!!