Free Trade vs. Fair Trade

[havoc092]

I have a pretty closed mind when it comes to facts. That is to say that once I have the facts, nonsense doesn't sway me from them. The US was a superpower prior to Nafta and WTO. Period. Now we're at 30+ percent unemployment. You say "protectionism" like it's a bad thing. What you're really saying is that national defense is a bad thing and you're trying to conflate protectionism with favoritism. Just the facts.

[ProIndividual]

David Ricardo explained that immigrant labor, outsourcing, and technological advances in production is "labor set free". It grows the economy, and has a net gain of jobs, not a loss. This is because when you expand the number of tasks a population can do, you increase it's output. Our much smaller population is able to out-task China's much larger population throught this process. It's not politically correct, but it's factual. Think of it as growing pains of an economy, a re-adjustment of labor

[ProIndividual]

This what a Harvard economics degree is worth. Dobbs is a perfet example why college degrees neither denote intelligence, nor education. Trade deficits are good. They denote wealth, low unemployment, and high growth. Look up the 19th century mathematical debunk by Frederic Bastiat on trade deficits. It's all easily verifiable with data, as Milton Freidman did for the projections and predictions of Bastiat. Ricardo showed why layoffs due to outsourcing, immigrants, or technology is good also.

[havoc092]

Free trade is what King George used in attempt to destroy the colonial economy. It's what caused the revolutionary war. That both parties have decided this is a good idea tells you all you need to know about what they are - traitors. These men should be tried for treason.

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 How can a King use no government interference to hurt a colony? A trade situation devoid of government interference is free trade, so how does a King hurt you with that without making it non-free trade exactly? It makes no sense. Look up free trade, you are misdefining what it means now. The North also used protectionism while the South rebels were called "free traders"...but it had a wholely separate meaning. The world did not use modern free trade until late 19th century in America.

[havoc092]

@ProIndividual Not so. And I am not misunderstanding what it means. The people pushing it come up with a new defense every five seconds - spam it and run. It's not an issue the media wants discussed or that the two parties will discuss openly - especially if it means they're being challenged. The King raised taxes on trade between the colonies then lowered taxes on Goods from Britain in order to make British goods so cheap that the colonies couldn't compete with them. Free trade.

[havoc092]

..see, as a basic point of economics, if your competitor can make it cheaper - you won't make it because you likely won't sell it. If everyone can make it cheaper than you, they'll run you out of your own market - end result - no jobs and no ability, therefore, to amass wealth. And that last point was the King's entire stated goal. It worked back then and it has been working in the modern day. The actual unemployment rate has exceeded that of the great depression - Free trade exemplified.

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 The idea fails. Go to Amazon or Ebay and you'll se sellers with massive business, hundreds of thousands or millions of sales, all at different prices. Ptice is only one way to diversify and survive. You forget competition not only drives prices down, which makes consumers (the masses) richer, but also increases quality. For instance...I just bought 8 more books this week...I bought them at higher prices than other sellers offered. Why?

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 Because he sends them fast, he packages them well as to not bend my books, and he gives me a free book here and there to suprise me and keep me happy. You are economically backwards...if your theory held water there would be massive amounts of monopolies on Ebay and amazon, but there are almost none. You misunderstand comparative advantage as a concept. It doesn't lead to monoplies and downturns, it leads to consumer wealth and competition.

[havoc092]

@ProIndividual What you're saying is allogical. And, no, it doesn't presuppose monopolies. It simply presupposes what I actually said - anyone who can make it cheaper (which is every country in the world) will run you out of your own market. Of course, "free trade" has been lately imposed upon the country. Before this, we were an economic giant. If it worked, why has our market crashed and our unemployment numbers surpassed that of the great depression of the 30s.

[havoc092]

..furthermore, the author of the free trade theory himself states flatly that comparative advantage cannot exist where the means of production are as mobile as the people. And that's precisely what we've seen to be the case. What that means is that it reduces your position to soundbites that have no acquantance with reality. It certainly hasn't led to consumer wealth. Consumers are wealthy only when they have jobs to provide said wealth.

[havoc092]

The last thing I'd offer is that it doesn't matter how cheap you can import goods if people can't earn enough to afford them. The net effect is a massive loss of high paying jobs, an increase in the cost of living at the same time and a devaluation of the currency which destroys remaining wealth. Most people would knock you on your can repeating that nonsense. It cost them their liveliehood. And people like you should be held to account.

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 And I'd like to see charts proving the economy in TOTAL grows employment protectionism LONGTERM (not just in protected industries at the expense of the other sectors by misallocation of capital and resources like labor in the short term) (you'll find no such data). I can provide charts to show less protectionism INCREASED job growth (and the growth of the size of the overall economy). Also, show me where monopolies aren't created by protectionism, or how monopolies are good for it. LOL

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 Your problem is your arguing "common sense" (common misconception. It's quite intutive.

Economics, unfortunately for your current argument, are counter intutive and deductively logical.

It's nothing autodidactism won't fix...if you have an open enough mind to try.

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 And again, where exactly do property rights start to matter in this? Oh, they don't under protectionism. You need guns and govt thugs to stop me from hiring or trading with anyone I like, regardless of some imaginary arbitrary dotten line govts draw on maps. INALIENABLE RIGHTS are "without border, not subject to statute, unregulatable"...hence it doesn't matter what nation your mother gave birth in, or what nation you reside, your rights are intact. You can only aggress against them.

[ProIndividual]

@havoc092 You seem smart enough to educate yourself on what is ACTUALLY causing jobs to be diminished (a lack of free market economics and too much state intervention, not the opposite)...thwe only question is, do you have an open enough mind to face the facts?

[havoc092]

As said prior, The government was designed to be run off of duties on imports. Duties on imports were designed to balance the playing field between the worth of our currency and that of others, the cost of living in both places, etc so that goods would be priced comparabley according to scale, which doesn't mean imported goods will cost more by default than local goods. Jobs have been lost because the playing field is no longer balanced. Simple economics.

[havoc092]

As to property rights, if you want a one world regime, socialism doesn't grant property rights and it has everything to do with this. The model being followed right now isn't economic, it's political; but, the political is established by controlling the economics. Same thing was done to Europe in the leadup to the EU. It took a long time over there, but they're fast tracking us irrespective of public sentiment.

[havoc092]

And of course you'd be for hiring illegals. Illegals keep the cost of labor low.  And that's been one of the constant themes of policy of late. Not that anyone couldn't afford labor when we were a superpower, they just wanted more and more profit for themselves - thus the massive seperation of payscales on the top end from the norm - going to 300 times that of front line employees while employee compensation went down. You're a corporatist aren't you.

[jg95mia]

Bring back tariffs.

[ProIndividual]

@jg95mia And commit economic suicide out of populist ignorance, no thanks. I like my property rights. I can trade with, buy from, and sell to whoever I like. I also may hire anyone I like at any wage we agree to. It's none of your or anyone elses, especially government's, business. If you don't respect property rights out of collectivism like this, you are a nationalist. That makes you an anti-property, corporatist, protectionist, nationalist. National socialist for short. Heil You, I guess.

[lomocan]

Let's put countries aside for a moment & look at this on an individual-level. Let's say A is selling a product at $10 while B is selling the same at $5, now C the buyer, would obviously like to buy from B, so should government step in & bar C from buying from B? Should the government put a tax of $10 making B's product worth $15? Why does gov have a right to screw C for A's benefit? This is just corporatism. The whole American public would be in C's position due to protectionism.

[affiliate30]

@lomocan but C is losing his job because A is taking his job so that he can offer a product at $5. Soon C won't be able to buy at all

[ProIndividual]

@affiliate30 If A takes Bs job to make product 1 for 5$ instead of 10$, that means C will get a job, since D-Z can buy 1 for half price, and will now buy the left over 5$ worth of products 2 and 3 that employ C, and some of D-Z, and eventually, B. Welcome to Frederic Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy. This is what he referred to looking at the "seen", but not logically following it through in analysis of the "unseen". I just showed what you fear is a net gain in jobs. Cheaper makes us richer.

[canadastreetmedia]

FREETRADE = UNEMPLOYMENT .

Hurts local Manufacturing Markets. Skills services ...

Buy smart Fair Trade products Made in North America.

[mana2432]

fair trade = protectionism

protectionism was one of the main factors that prolonged the Great Depression...nuff said

[lomocan]

@mana2432

"fair trade = protectionism

protectionism was one of the main factors that prolonged the Great Depression...nuff said"

Yeah, there was a recession in 1920 too but the government did NOTHING & it was over in a year while Hoover & Roosevelt's protectionist policies turned a normal recession into Great Depression, fortunately for America, war bailed us out & basically grew at the expense of Europe where production was hampered by the war

[MsZeitgeist85]

@mana2432 Free Trade = Human Slavery.

Can you name a single country that developed without protectionsim?

[mana2432]

@MsZeitgeist85 thats the equivalent of naming a nation that didn't develop without wars... both aren't good for the economy.. as for your little analogy free trade = human slavery, taking it to its logical conclusion is free market = slavery, free market being people making VOLUNTARY transactions, hmm... sounds very much like freedom is slavery, war is peace, and Ignorance is strength...

I'm ghost

Deuces

[westonsz]

The only way our economy can be fixed is by doing something about this problem. Till then what we have now is the new normal.

[imstillalive0331]

thats a long answer to explain. the short version that it is not ok. its really a topic seperate from the economic discussion, but a valid question. i'll shoot you a message with my explanation.

[ipwnallnubscuzirock]

If the Chinese give us resources better and cheaper than we do, then why should we stop them. The point being, if cheap resources are available in China, they can be used to create more jobs here, not less. Less maybe in the steel industry, maybe in the clothing market, maybe even in cars. But they still do not have a service economy, they still do not have power over us, and even if they are protectionist, they are hurting themselves much more, we should not mimic them.

[Hockeyjason]

haha what??

[ipwnallnubscuzirock]

you heard me

[imstillalive0331]

thats hardly a counter point. insults are only a sign of a weak arguement. tarriffs only hurt the consumer. if the chinese want to place tarriffs on our vehicles they are only hurting there own buyers. it forces consumers to buy what may be an inferior vehicle for the same price they could get a more valuable car(value being relative to the individual). it hurts the consumer because we have to either cut corners on our goods to make them cheaper, or we have to find people that can afford it.

[imstillalive0331]

It is also up to the individual manufacturer. if they can still produce a car that can turn a profit over there, they will. if not, they don't have to trade with china. raising prices to match local prices only results its higher prices for the consumer and it protects the local business from having to lower prices

[raymond5280]

benjamaiLL, Do you work for China? BTW, the U.S. economy is now the 2nd largest on earth, the EU passed N. America about 5 years ago. Why don't you stop watching faux news and read an actual book or newspaper?

[3conomist]

If you look at basic economics, protectionism cannot help an economy overall. If china wants to give us stuff for really cheap that's fine with me. they're helping the American consumer and the overall economy. a tariff would be absolutely idiotic. CNN is just being idiotic

[TheWanderingsole]

get money you capitalistic pig... a world with peace where money is least a non existent beast not polluted with grease no war in the middle east

[SavageJim01]

Quote by benjamaiLL:

" All protectionism. Show me a protectionist measure that has boosted an economy The fallacy with this is the retarded idea that america cannot produce anything at a lower cost than china."

And you really believe China is not protectionist?

Lets face it, Chinese companies have too many advantages due to chinese protectionist measures: China subsidizes their businesses, they have no min wage laws, no benefits, their environmental laws are min & not a cost factor.

[benjamaiLL]

SavageJim01.. lol. I don't know what to say. You go on believing in your cooky ideas. see yah!

[SavageJim01]

And you go on believing yours. The economy of the world has been a long time ticking like a time bomb fueld by FTAs with protectionist countries. And now the world economy is starting to show some shocks from those mistakes.

You go on believing that our FTAs with protectionist countries are benign.

[benjamaiLL]

INFORM THE MASSES!

[dferriman]

Learn more about how so-called "free trade" is turning the US into a 3rd world country - we are jobless and make nothing of value. Log onto Economy In Crisis here on Youtube their website.

[benjamaiLL]

Read up on what economists say about freetrade. lol. We have the largest economy on earth.

[SavageJim01]

Yes, the US still has the largest economy in the world, & you know what, as a proud American, I want it to stay that way!

I do not want to see that economy undermined by FTAs with protectionist countries. And that is how we Americans are screwing ourselves.

There are other factors, but I dont have enough characters to mention them all.

[mujaku]

How many times to you have to tell people, "It ain't free-trade -- it is arbitrage!" American companies go all over the world to wage arbitrage, throwing millions of American out of once good paying jobs. They up their profits that way at the expense of U.S. GDP and the nation's future. We should put high tariffs on all imported goods produced overseas by American companies.

[benjamaiLL]

Free trade provides lower cost resources so american consumers can spend more money on other things they enjoy therefore improving their standard of living. Like IT technology, and robotics, it will only put a minority of the population out of work and benefit the vast majority.

"We should put high tariffs on all imported goods produced overseas by American companies. "

What happened last time we did that?

[SavageJim01]

Sorry, you are blinded by cheap chinese goods. Yes, cheaper goods allow consumers to buy more, but when you buy chinese, you cause jobs to go to china. Then more Americans lose jobs. How can they buy anything after that?

[benjamaiLL]

If I pay less for chinese goods, I have more money to spend on american goods. If my money goes to china, china has more money to buy american goods.

[IAmMoparNut]

@benjamaiLL but, duh, the Chinese DON'T buy American goods. They simply counterfeit them.

[lomocan]

@IAmMoparNut

"but, duh, the Chinese DON'T buy American goods. They simply counterfeit them"

Why wouldn't they buy American goods if they were cheaper & worked better than counterfeits, it's cost/benefit thing; individuals may be willing to a pay a slighly higher price for a better product BUT only to an extent; if you'd a better product at $10 while the counterfeit costing $5 didn't work well, people may choose to go for better product at higher but likely NOT if it costs $50 instead of $10

[benjamaiLL]

You are blinded by your own delusional rationalization. Suppose we built robots capable of replacing all menial labor? That would throw millions out of jobs. Janitors, construction workers, and factory workers would lose their jobs. Yet it would cost less for society to have factory produced goods, constructed property etc. Should we illegalize this new robot technology to save jobs? Or should we give the majority of society lower cost goods and therefore a better SOL? Please answer.

[benjamaiLL]

You are blinded by your own delusional rationalization. Suppose we built robots capable of replacing all menial labor? That would throw millions out of jobs. Janitors, construction workers, and factory workers would lose their jobs. Yet it would provide lower cost goods and services to the rest of society and therefore a better standard of living. Should we illegalize this if(when) this existed? Yes or no and why.

[SavageJim01]

That is not correct, you are assuming Smoot-Hawley. Since the Yaun is so damn cheap, how can the common chinese buy anything? Only the communis sponsoerd business benefit!

Also, a fallacy to your idea off buying chinese: Americans who buy chinese will not buy american because they want CHEAP anyways!

[SavageJim01]

Also, the only ones pro-chinese free trade are the ones who benefit from it! Importers who sell the chinese poisons to americans. The americans who are so cheap they want the absolute cheapest that they dont care jobs are going to china.

And consumers who buy chinese are so blind that they do not see that buying chinese is why their very jobs are going to china! When you dont make any money 'because your job went to china, how the hell can you buy anything?????

[benjamaiLL]

"Also, the only ones pro-chinese free trade are the ones who benefit from it! Importers who sell the chinese poisons to americans. The americans who are so cheap they want the absolute cheapest that they dont care jobs are going to china."

This whole paragraph is stupid from start to finish. Every penny spent on chinese goods is used to buy american goods or invest in the US economy.

"When you dont make any money 'because your job went to china, how the hell can you buy anything?"

DEAR GOD!

[SavageJim01]

What a load of bull, if every USD is used to buy american? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

Why? A damn TRADE DEFICIT! Chinese mercantilism, nothing short of their own protectionism.

Why cannot you see that? It really seems like you purposefully blind yourself to believe the trade deficit does not exist and that the FTA w/ china is a good thing. Chinese protectionism has been draining the US economy for decades, and this is one of the major factors why the econmy now sucks!

DEAR GOD!

[benjamaiLL]

Nope. All protectionism. Show me a protectionist measure that has boosted an economy.

"buy american because they want CHEAP anyways!"

The fallacy with this is the retarded idea that america cannot produce anything at a lower cost than china. Do you really believe this ? Lol.

"ince the Yaun is so damn cheap, how can the common chinese buy anything?"

Every cent that is not spent by the chinese is reinvested in the USA's gdp. Duh.

[FluxCapacitor2008]

So called "free trade" cost the US $700 billion per year. That money in turn has come back to buy us out in the form of lobbyists and the loss of our manufacturing base. "$700 billion per year"!!!!!

[FluxCapacitor2008]

Even at minimum wage people will be paying taxes and their own way, and then we would not have to bail them out, why dont people see that the small manufacturing jobs that the not so smart people that cant afford 4 years of collage are needed

[FluxCapacitor2008]

Who thinks that our people would not do the jobs that the Heartless greedy companies send overseas, Heartless greedy companies send our job off shore so they can exploit workers and the environment in other countries. Then send their cheap shit back hear to sell

[FluxCapacitor2008]

Dont take our jobs overseas and ship the shit back home to sell, thats not fair trade

[ornelas3830]

Free trade among nations is NOT as beneficial to the people as some politicians make it to be. Our founding fathers taxed imported goods for a reason: to foster economic growth in America and prevent unfair competitive advantages. How is it fair trade when a communist country like China subsidize and force laborers to work for pennies to produce goods that will compete with a quasi-capitalist country like America that pays workers according to supply and demand.

[benjamaiLL]

Free trade creates a resource that we can use to buy lower-cost goods and spend more here at home. Free trade stimulates economies. You have to be a moron not to understand this.

[ornelas3830]

I understand free trade but highly disagree with it. Free trade does not stimulate economies; the foundation of REAL economic stimulation is the productivity of goods and services. Free trade is another unprincipled voodoo Keynesian economic theory.

[benjamaiLL]

No, haha. 85% of economists believe we should UNILATERALY ELIMINATE ALL TARIFFS.

Let me make this as clear as possible. FREE TRADE HAS BEEN PROVEN TO EXPEDITE ECONOMIC GROWTH. PROTECTIONISM HAS BEEN PROVEN TO RETARD ECONOMIC GROWTH. THIS IS NOT VOODOO. THIS IS A HISTORICAL, PROVEN FACT. FREE TRADE MAKES ECONOMIES SPECIALIZE IN WHAT EVER GOODS AND SERVICES THEY ARE BEST AT PRODUCING. THEREFORE, THEY PRODUCE MORE.

[ornelas3830]

"Economists believe we should unilateraly eliminate all tariffs"

I did not know that truth was based on popularity, so I guess according to your logic, Germany was right by executing Jews. Secondly, I highly doubt the majority of your census had any austrian economists.

"Free trade has been proven to expediate economic growth."

Please, please, please, please provide some economic data that will support your claim.

[benjamaiLL]

Secondly, I highly doubt the majority of your "census had any austrian economists."

What do you know about Austrian economics? Free trade is fundamental to Austrian economics.

did not know that truth was based on popularity, so I guess according to your logic, Germany was right by executing Jews. "

Lol. So if 85% of doctors say smoking is bad for you, then we should just really not care because of nazi germany. Lol

[benjamaiLL]

"Please, please, please, please provide some economic data that will support your claim."

Post WWII growth rates of WTO nation v. non WTO nations.

[ornelas3830]

"Post WWII growth rates of WTO nation v non WTO nations."

That is way too generalized, be more specific with your evidence. What countries are you comparing? How did you determine growth rates were directly related to free trade and NOT free enterprise capitalism which leads to efficiency, in turn leading to more productivity of goods and services. Your evidence is weak! Also, to counter your free trade claim, take a look at the EU and how member countires standard of living have DECLINED.

[IAmMoparNut]

@benjamaiLL You keep spouting off how protectionism retards economic growth. Would you please back that up with examples?

[lomocan]

@IAmMoparNut

Protectionism & minimum-wage forces everyone in the country to buy costlier goods & lowers everyone's standard of living since the cost of production is higher which means people can save less money so less money is put into banks so less money money is available for loans to enterpreneurs so less jobs, less goods/services are created, prices are high; not to mention high production cost means takes exports out of the equation but there'll be still some imports means trade deficits

[benjamaiLL]

When 85% of all economists say we should UNILATERALLY ELIMINATE ALL TARIFFS then maybe it might be a good idea.

[AznSensation90]

Spilwacky, i dont see the free market damaging domestic living standards, unless its disrupted by inefficient economic policies conducted by flawed human thinking. Nor does protectionism bring about economic prosperity. Basic economics: free trade enables comparative trading, which helps a nation specialize in a certain industry. Protectionism, however, results in dead weight losses. Through protectionism, corporations wont be exposed to foreign competiveness.

[IAmMoparNut]

@AznSensation90 How about American companies competing with each other on a level playing field? Let's look back, for example, when RCA, Zenith, Magnavox, etc. were all based here and competed with each other. We made the best products in the world and since they all employed American workers, we could afford to buy the products we made.

[AznSensation90]

Again, controlling foriegn imports through means of quotas and tariffs is highly inefficient. And in japan's case, they actually had a good reason to control imports of autos. With the mass production of hybrid cars, controlling imports of foriegn cars and making japanese citizens purchase domestic hybrid cars, the japanese demand for oil would decrease. This would proved to be helpful, considering japanese imports most of their oil and their bugdet deficet is huge.

[spilwacky]

AznSensation90, so you're saying the Japanese are allowed to be protectionist to protect domestic concerns, but the Americans shouldnt ??

That doesnt sound like a consistent economic policy that can be applied globally, if you say that Japan can put a tariff on imports to Japan because of their huge deficit, but that America should encourage a free market at the risk of Americans suffering a deficit, recession or depression and damaged domestic living standards.

[AznSensation90]

Spilwacky: You make an interesting point, however, what american industry can compete globally with others. Take the auto industry again as an example. While foriegn automakers were focusing on hybrids and alternative fuel techonology, our big three focused on big, gas guzzling, SUV cars. How can are nation compete globally when our entrepeneural class is unfit to "recapitalize" our capitalist society.

[spilwacky]

Your point re US auto industry is well-taken. American auto manufacturers wrongfully assumed it was financially "efficient" to the high profit margin SUVs and trucks, when they should've moved to small hybrid autos, though at low profit %.

However Americans have the capability to design and build automobiles competitively.

The Japanese, other Asian and European nations support their auto industries and control import of autos from the US. We should do the same.

[IAmMoparNut]

@AznSensation90 but the culprit for focusing on gas-guzzlers lies squarely on the shoulders of consumers, not the auto industry. If you owned a business that focused on producing products your customers did not want to buy would you be very successful?

[AznSensation90]

The old fashion way of creating wealth through manufacturing and selling is, as its name implies, old. Again, in today's global economy, America needs to continue its stance on free trade in order to draw more foreign investment into the US. We need to keep our financial sector strong. Why do you think Congress passed a bailout plan for the financial industry, but not the auto industry. Speaking of which, our auto industry needs to develop better cars if they want to compete with foriegn cars.

[spilwacky]

AznSensation90: When we say we want foreigners to invest in America, we mean they should invest in industry and technology here which employs Americans, not entice Americans with cheap credit so we continually import goods and widen the trade deficit. Alan Greenspan himself expressed regret that the free market theories led to this inflated-credit debacle. Americans should not support the finance industry. On the contrary, the finance industry will only exist if it supports American industries.

[benjamaiLL]

Alan Greenspan never expressed regret that "free market theories led to this inflated-credit debacle." He regretted artificially low interest rates that were created by a government charted central bank, that he was the chairman of, created the credit debacle. Any freemarketer does not support a government chartered enterprise.

[AznSensation90]

Most of you guys are missing the point here. America is not an exporting nation. We dont need to compete in the global export economy. Most of our wealth as a nation comes from the financial sector of our economy, through financial services. Its because of our stance on free trade that our financial sector is (was) strong.

[spilwacky]

To AznSensation90: You miss flaw in the Theory of "Perfect Markets" that some people can survive by just buying and others can survive by just selling. A country cannot grow wealth by buying on credit and moving cash flow around the country. Wealth creation and increased living standards can only happen the old fashioned way: Manufacturing, Creating, Selling! That's why the Japanese, though technologically advanced, continue to subsidize their auto industry: to provide jobs at home.

[clarkdonna4]

I know what it'll take to force our elected officials to do what's best for our country and not what's best for their political careers. It's called assasination.

[spilwacky]

Best Idea ever is at t=2m45s: Put a 25% tax on imports from China. Actually it should be closer to 50%. The cheap goods are not worth the harm caused by lead-painted toys and melamine-filled milk anyway !

And Bush should be ashamed of himself for protecting "free trade" at the expense of the health and safety of Americans. He can go continue his "dialogue" with the Chinese somewhere else and let Americans run the US. And while he's at it he can take Paulsen with him too.

[therealcaptobvious]

Bush should be ashamed, Clinton should be ashamed of passing NAFTA with China to begin with. The deficit was $400 billion before 2000.

Also goods from outsourced labor should be taxed highly as imports.

[spilwacky]

I'm afraid you're right. Irrespective of party, mainstream political leadership, Dem/Rep, continue to sell the "Free Trade".

The only thing to change this is a angry US population who demands to be treated as a contributing money-earning workforce, not just a money-spending consumer.

The simple US policy must be "If you dont create jobs here, you dont sell here!". This is what European and Asian countries did to US companies in the last 20 yrs to create local jobs.

[spilwacky]

PS: that was a reply to therealcaptobvious below.

[ssanagav]

This is a very good example of western hypocrisy. Before, the west said trade was more about principles & values than interests. Then started arm-twisting of poorer nations to open up markets even when there was no level playing field. Then, globalization and with GAP,Nike employing child labor, it was 'inevitable' part of industrialization, even in early Manchester. Now, when their jobs are being threatened, suddenly trade is about 'interests' and compalints about lack of level playing field !

[spilwacky]

To ssanagav: I'd like to believe that the hypocrisy was only from the west. However the east and the south are also natural capitalists, who strive for maximum profit from minimum cost. The cheap exploited labor existed in poorer countries long before the West got there. For every greedy western company, eg Nike, there is a greedy Asian cheap labor broker willing to exploit his own people.

[iwatchmassvideo]

We(U.S.A) need to put an end to the Cheap Labor abuse and outsourcing of American jobs. We can do this by simply placing a high tariff on automobiles to save Christyler,GM, and Ford. How can they compete with foreign auto-makers who use 10-13 year old children to snap pieces together for less than a penny an hour? I am not for FREE TRADE, I am for FAIR trade. Which people keep abusing the U.S.A.'s trade policy.

[lomocan]

@iwatchmassvideo

So you basically want EVERYONE to pay MORE to get goods/services just so that SOME can have jobs? Those who can't get jobs due to cheaper imports should acquire skills which have demand in the market-place instead asking for raising the cost of living for everyone & lowering everyone else's standard of living

[jroman692]

@iwatchmassvideo

you dont even know what you are talking about you are a retarded ass cowboy.... We are the ones who pushed communism out of the way to make room for capitalism and these are the effects of that... jobs will go where the labor is cheaper in a global economy... i mean america gets to sell products thoughout the world right!!! FAIR TRADE YOUR FULL OF SHITT!! stop buying shitt from CHINA.

[ProIndividual]

@jroman692 and make yourself poorer, smart move. You do not increase GDP or employment by buying products that cost more (making you poorer) just for the pleasure of the being American made. It hurts you and the economy. It's counter intutive, but deductively logical. You should always buy the best product for the cheapest price, not the comparable product for the most out of some nationalism. Stop with the collectivist fallacies.

[ronII1974]

free trade forces companies to pursue the lowest common denominator of behavior, Increases reliance on fossil fuels and generally suppresses wages of rich and poor nations. Support FAIR TRADE Try to buy Local and buy used. Try to Reject predatory capitalism.

[AznSensation90]

Does anybody understand that today's economy is globalized, and that America has been a finanical magnet to foriegn investment because of our stance on free trade and open economic policies

[therealcaptobvious]

yes. We don't like the fact that both Japan and China are that leveraged in our treasuries.

[Monttai]

I am so sick of this fat pig face.

[carter20081985]

fuck americans don't need jobs just get rid all of them yea go for it hip hip hurry for nafta yeaaaaaa that what i want to do when i grow up i want to start a bussines and then when i feel like it i will ship it to little children that do our work yeaaaaaaa

[kfreking11]

The trade deficit is an outdated measure of how trade actually works today. We have so many multinational companies that don't get factored into this supposed deficit. For example when the U.S. buys alot of electronics (or any other good)from China China has only three options they can do with the money we paid them with. 1) buy American goods and services, 2) Invest in the U.S. (buy our debt), or 3) save the money.

[Renegen1]

What american goods and services? The goods are all made abroad. As for the money, they can also reinvest that money into making their companies more competititve and in research and development, they don't always have to save the money. Millions and millions of manufacturing jobs lost (and only health care is keeping the economy afloat) isn't a fair trade balance. There IS a gigantic trade deficit.

[clarkdonna4]

kfreking11,

Your english sucks.

[therealcaptobvious]

Then China buys from Australia that is competition for America in goods. Other countries and corporations get rich because of policies that are out of control for AMerican workers to deal with? How is that even capitalism? You answer that, otherwise i consider you a sociopath.

[deepblueultramarine]

President Bush & Congress, FAIR TRADE IS 50-50 FIGURING IN CHINESE MONETARY MANIPULATION. EXAMPLE: EXPORT 1M TONS TO CHINA FROM USA, IMPORT 1M TONS FROM CHINA. NO MORE NO LESS.

[mujaku]

Based on Paul Bairoch's book, "Economics & World History" the U.S. is headed for a depression. Bairoch makes it very clear that free-trade inevitably leads to depressions while protectionism leads to recoveries. It is time for protective tariffs, wage tariffs, and a revenue tariff so taxes can be lowered on the American worker. This is the way America used to do it--and why it became great. All this ended in 70s with the rise of free-trade when Nixon went to China.

[kfreking11]

In what why does a free trade policy lead to a depression? Trade is always mutually beneficial. A protectionism policy is just gonna limit trade all together and raise the price of every manufactured good, hurting consumers. It's very simple, in the new globalized world whoever is better fit for the job, regardless of nationality, will get the job. If american workers aren't adding any more value to the economy, How do you expect them to benefit more?

[mujaku]

In 1930 Sen. Samuel Shortridge said:-- "What the American people want is a tariff that protects . . . American raised, American-mined, American-manufactured products and American men and women from competition with like foreign products raised, mined, or manufactured by cheap foreign labor. . . . The free-trade theory has cursed America. The protective theory has blessed America. If the free-trade theory were now put into operation, it would bankrupt America."

[Rexanglorum]

Cheap foreign labor is akin, economically, to using more productive machines when it comes to its effects on jobs. However, if a law maker were to ban the use of that new capital or taxed consumers buying its output, in order to "save jobs," we would call that person a luddite and a loon but when the same situation comes up with foreign labor rather than machines we hail the luddites as realist and populist and the advocates of not knocking over the new looms as "waging war on the middle class."

[IPKhalifa]

Q:Can you live sidebyside with Umar Empire

A: Never, we must steal their resources by Maccin $1Tvets+Mitt $1Tblackwaters+Hill $1Timaginationwalls+Obama $1Tccdrugs+Blair UBSfact distortion+UN bribes+WorldBank hungercross+sharon kill them allmovie+Gore Cleanless elections everywhere!

Think out of the American box=Freedom

[AntonBatey]

The United States is so hypocritical when they cry "unfair". Like when, under Reagan, his Administration implemented price supports, subsidies and controls so they would be able to undersell foreign competition.

[gizmosells]

China money managament skills are simple merchantilism. China uses import quotas to limit American goods that compete with goods for export. China offers Godfather offer a company that likes to export cant refuse. China is west crack dealer for comsumer goods, and will be for long while.

[Tony63efc]

There are a number of issues and it's important to recognize those that you can do something about and those you can't. Expecting consumers to always buy the locally produced product regardless of price is a form of taxation.

[franoreck]

Paulsen was CEO of Goldman Sachs the leader of the NY stock exchange. He is big business his only worry is stock holders returns. The Chinese are brutal government to there own people and were our enemies. Stop buying Chinese goods and bring home American jobs.The Chinese put lead in our childrens toys

[AlanCom1]

Oh, puhlease.

We all know that the democrats are corrupt as hell. They got millions of dollars from AFL-CIO from union members ( I would say illegally).

If you don't want free trade, start by banning oil imports. You will appreciate free trade instantly.

Lou Dobbs is a tool. He is just pissed that 2 billion people are out of poverty and into a bright future. Shame!!!!!

[Userduder]

Protectionists aren't worried about raw material trade deficit, its manufacturing trade deficit which is totally unnecessary and suicidal. Duncan Hunter 2008

[AlanCom1]

user, with a weak dollar, your worries are a waste. Enjoy.

[Userduder]

Chinese Yuan is pegged to the dollar, along with a few other currencies. Free-trade = coming double digit inflation.

[AlanCom1]

userduder don't pretend that you actually know what you are talking about. The chinese are actually very sloppy about their monetary policy and learned nothing from the japanese experience.

They have a trade surplus that pushes their yuan higher. If they pruduce a toy that costs them 8 yuan =1$ now, but inflation pushes the cost to say 9 yuan, even if the exchange rate is fixed, the cost in US will be 1.15. Got it?

[Userduder]

What I get is that the floating currencies such as the EU! will start passing mega tariffs so the US and Chinese pegged currencies doesn't drag them down into the bottomless pit.

[RoteHaareMann]

And if "the american people" wanted something done about, they wouldn't have to bark to their senators-they would stop buying from china if they really really cared! NONE OF YOU SEEM TO GET THAT POINT. THE POWER IS IN YOUR HANDS, CONSUMERS. YOU CAN USE IT, EVEN THOUGH I THINK YOU SHOULDN'T.

[AlanCom1]

RoteHaareMann, awesome comment.

Everybody bashes Wall Mart, but buys from them.

All union leaders at GM and Ford tell us what great cars they make and all drive Japanese and German cars.

Given the population, US can be a dwarf in the world economy if it stops trading with the world.

[janusanus]

yes really strange that bush made the promise to keep jobs in the US and saying al gore wanted to send them overseas.

The reverse has been the truth. And yes, Bush did have contact with the ceo's of outsourcing companies.

[RoteHaareMann]

When will people realize that it's not up to senators or a treasury secretary to "rectify" imbalances of trade, but that it's up to themselves, the consumers? Either way, it doesn't need to be done; why should people not be allowed to purchase waht they want from where they wish to shop? Are any of you afraid of giving you fellow humans that basic freedom, that inalienable right to property, as John Locke said and right to happiness as Jefferson said?

[RoteHaareMann]

lou dobbs is a blithering fool.

[Userduder]

Republicans better return to their roots, or split the party. Republican Party was founded by PROTECTIONISTS! It was the Democrats who were the corrupt bought and sold free-trade crackers.

[davidmesaaz]

Then Haiti would be the source of cheap goods. But its productivity and not strictly wage costs that drive the global market. I think what he fails to factor in is the US workers are US consumers. Are we really better off to have all of our workers instead of working for Toyota Ford or other Automakers. Working for John Deere or Boeing.News Flash the year that hired the most auto workers was this year.

[davidmesaaz]

From Europe's perspective the US has cheap overseas labor with fewer regulations. The cost of labor is not what drives the international economy if it were Haiti with its dirt cheap labor deep harbor and its proximity to the US.

[rman4000]

TO TimothyRed1990

The poor people in those other countries will starve anyway. They are being used as slave labor. Money goes to the top!

[TimothyRed1990]

no, some money goes to the top, but they make more moeny than they would make if they were unemployed, and dying of hunger. There are plenty of garment jobs, and hundreds of other jobs that could export their stuff to richer countries where people can have EVEN BETTER JOBS.

[TimothyRed1990]

they will not "starve anyway". You need energy to work, So no doubt they will be fed. and they can move somewhere and open their own business with the skills they learn.

[TimothyRed1990]

the less government, the better

free trade!!

let those poor people in other countries have jobs! dont make them STARVE TO DEATH with your tarriffs!

[jocamadad]

I'd like them to have jobs but not my job or a family member's job or a friend's job. Jackass!

[TimothyRed1990]

then maybe you should get some education in field that CANT be outsourced. Like computer network admin/technician, nurse or doctor (not programmer, garment worker or basket maker)

[Userduder]

Traitor. Maybe you should concern yourself with the welfare of Americans, not the welfare of a foreigner. Their government will take care of their own. Its a Darwinian political concept. I thought you free-trade libertarian lunatics loved Darwin. Don't go slack on us now.

[TimothyRed1990]

I dont want to help them in any unnatural way. I just want the natural laws of free trade and supply and demand dictate the prices. It's just that SOME PEOPLE try to claim that free trade HURTS foreigners.

[JakeJudd28]

First of all it is treason, secondly If the company wants to go than so should the owners, GO TO CHINA and stay there! Give up your citizenship and stay gone. IT IS TREASON AND I'LL SPREAD THE WORD

[TimothyRed1990]

free trade rules! go back to school if you cant compete fairly with other countries. get your MCSE or CCNA

[pcjunkie48]

TimothyRed1990 - Compete my ass,just how much do you think the chinese buy as far as American or even their own shit.This is nothing more than big corporations screwing the American workers

[xXxbhappyxXx]

thankyou soo much hypervexbliss!!! you have helped me soo much! thanks again bye x x

[hypervexbliss]

If we do not withdraw from NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO, and place some strict regulations on corporations that outsource, we WILL be screwed in the near future. LuciusBrutus is right, China pretty much owns the American economy at this point.

[xXxbhappyxXx]

by sunday!!!!!!!! thanks ppl if u can help me! ily

[hypervexbliss]

On the other hand, FAIR trade is trade with heavier state regulations. Imposing tariffs, implementing living wage laws, taxing or strongly regulating outsourcing, environmental protection laws, human rights regulations,strong regulations for corporations, etc. Hope that helped.

[xXxbhappyxXx]

i need to find a video tht explains freetrade and fairtrade, what it is ect... please help me!!!! on youtube and google ect! aaaah (and not too long also) lol

[hypervexbliss]

I can't find a video, but I can explain it to you. Free trade is trade with very limited government intervention. NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO are international agreements that supposedly promote free trade. Free trade is allowing the market to run itself with little/no restrictions on businesses such as minimum wage laws, environmental restrictions, tariffs, and penalties for outsourcing goods/labor.

[1tinsoldier]

Free trade is where the terms of the transaction are set by the parties involved in the trade. Fair trade involves a third party, holding a gun, dictating to those involved in the trade what is "fair".

[jocamadad]

WTF are you talking about? It's the big corporations that dictate free trade policy and the third party you spoke of is the government that's full of corrupt politicians, starting at the top, who line their pockets with special interest money and keep these policies going so American jobs can continue to be exported to slave labor markets like China.

[CMOSjockey]

China doesn't own America at this point. China owns the US corporations too stupid to realize that China will drop them once they steal all their markets. They will boot them out. Then the businesses that stayed will have it super good.

[soundcore]

Free Trade is not a new idea. It has long been a goal of the Communists. Google on "Communist Goals - 1963 Congressional Record".

[hypervexbliss]

Free trade and communism are polar opposites. Communism advocates a state controlled economy, which is FAIR trade, while free trade is an economy with little to no government control. The 1963 document simply stated that Communists wanted the U.S. to trade with them sanction free and lift any embargoes sanctioned against Communist countries.

[jocamadad]

No government control? Our free trade(slave labor) policies are full of government control. They're just the puppets though. The corporations are the ones pulling the strings.

[neothomist1275]

The corporations are still just worker bees. Its that Venetian oligarchy in Britain who push this Cobdenite drivel.

[OctoBox]

Soundcore -- Communism is (short of dictorship) is the most highly regulated (controlled) economy known, it is the exact opposite of "free-trade" - the problem is the current useage of the word, "modern" free trade is means "regulation" when Constitutionally and by definition it means "free" - unhinged.

[OctoBox]

Additionally - Imagine a barter system, unregulated both buyer and seller get exactly what they want - Congress (constitutionally) is not to create laws, they and the president are not supposed to "Nation Build" this is Colonialization - Corporationism - Big Goverment Communism or Socialism -- It is the opposite of "free-trade." "Fair" trade means highly regulated, "fairness" being a subjective term, open to interpretation or political lobbyism.

[seneca67]

I agree Lucius.

[LuciusBrutus]

It's too late for dialog, China owns America at this point. They have all the leverage over us. This is the fault of the Federal Reserve system, corporate special interests and world wide fiat currency manipulation.

In my opinion China is aiming to likely be the next reserve currency of the world or at least dominate the US economically, which is already spun in their direction. Basically, our economy is out of our hands and now we get to feel what it is like being told what to do.