Krugman on the Chambliss Hypocrisy

[migkillertwo]

The problem with Dr. Krugman's analysis is thus: The jobs created by Military spending are tangible and measurable, not so with handing out free money. Handing out free money is, according to your keynesian theory, supposed to stimulate consumer spending, which is supposed to create jobs. However, raising taxes, selling treasury bonds, and causing inflation all hurt spendign elsewhere, and there is no new spendign with these stimuli. People just put their stimulus checks in the bank.

[ipbalkenende]

@migkiller

But taxes are not being raised. Only down the line on 250k+. And only a small part of the stimulus goes directly to consumers.

[migkillertwo]

"But taxes are not being raised."

but treasury bonds ARE being sold to finance this deficit. That's how deficit spending works.

"only down the line on >250k"

That is a patent falsehood. Barack Obama enacted a much higher tax on tobacco, and the poor smoke much more than the wealthy. So before he even raised taxes on the upper class, he raised taxes on the lower class.

hmm. hypocrisy much?

[ipbalkenende]

"That is a patent falsehood. Barack Obama enacted a much higher tax on tobacco, and the poor smoke much more than the wealthy. So before he even raised taxes on the upper class, he raised taxes on the lower class.

hmm. hypocrisy much?"

Bwahahaha.. Hypocrisy? Seriously? With 250k plus I meant income. But honestly tobacco? You think you've nailed me now or something? I have no problem with that tax, maybe the money can go to finding a cure for cancer so they aren't such a drain on the ER

[ipbalkenende]

Yes bonds are being bought with capital that would otherwise sit idle. For low return as well because it's a safe haven.

[Dedhedted71]

This man is living proof that the Nobel Prize for economics is meaningless.

[ipbalkenende]

Nope all the rational expectations retards are living proof of that.

[wntoply6]

the "christian"republican party better find some intelligent people to represent their interests & the interest of the american people & SOON!

seems to me & most of america the buffoonery of fox news with the insane beck, the nra afraid obama will ban their guns & the leaderless "christian"republicans in congress are totally incapable of finding sanity, much to the dismay of america.

please you true republicans rid yourselves of these nutty "christians". we need sanity & we need it NOW!

[thucy2]

Krugman made another good point on the same show, also at Newt's expense. Newt was whining that state governments are now raising taxes because of increased demand for public services during the recession. Krugman said something like, "That's what moderation gets you" and went on to explain that to get the 3 GOP Senate votes for the stimulus package, the Dems had to cut tens of billions in direct state aid to pay police, fire fighters, etc.

Once again, the GOP tries to have it both ways.

[TubeTaxPro]

dig holes your ass. We can pay people to do the same thing FDR paid 8 million people for - build stuff,clean stuff.

[stratvic]

Krugman would have the government pay for us to dig holes and others to fill them in.

Spending is not stimulus, investment is. Spending is not the same as investment....investment pays for its self through increases in productivity. Spending is what you don't have is debt and debt is a reduction in freedom. Prepare to work harder to pay your taxes in the future. Taxation is slavery.

[MrMojoRisinII]

Thats utterly riduculous. Republicans are all for spoending, as long as its someone else's money. Where were you for the last eight years when W was running up huge deficits, and the republican congress went along with it.

I get a kick out of right wingers expressing outrage over having to pay the bills they ran up..

[stratvic]

It is not a partisan issue. Both parties are as bad as the other.

Left and right is meaningless to me. Resisting statism in pursuit of freedom puts me in opposition to both parties.

[thucy2]

"Krugman would have the gov. pay for us to dig holes and others to fill them in."

When did Krugman ever say that? What he wants is a New Deal style program to repair highways, build high speed rail, repair schools and firehouses, shore up our failing levees and dams (been to North Dakota lately?), etc. etc.

This country has been coasting on past investments ever since 1980, slashing needed repairs and infrastructure.

"Taxation is the price we pay for civilization."

[stratvic]

8% of the spending bill is for infrastructure. What is the 92% for? ...bigger government.

"Taxation is the price we pay for civilization."

....except where it is for redistribution, spying on your population, fighting illegal wars, torturing, creating a police state ...

"what do you thinks a stimulus bill is?"

... investment.

[greyflcn]

re: Stratvic

Well, would you say that this is a "fair" distribution?

greyfalcon. net/ concentrate.png

greyfalcon. net/ taxevasion3

[stratvic]

Fair distribution is based on merit not politics.

You earn you keep it. You use it you pay for it.

You can't fault people from avoiding looters and muggers. We all comply to the extend we do not what to be shot or imprisoned...but that is not a free society, it is an oppressed society. The level of taxation is a measure of oppression a government is subjecting its people to.

[greyflcn]

re: stratvic

"No man should receive a dollar unless that dollar has been fairly earned. Every dollar received should represent a dollar's worth of service rendered.

Not gambling in stocks, but service rendered. The really big fortune, the swollen fortune, by the mere fact of its size, acquires qualities which differentiate it in kind as well as in degree from what is possessed by men of relatively small means."

--Teddy Roosevelt, Conservative

[stratvic]

More evidence you can not trust a politician?

Risk taking has value. That is what entrepreneurship and investment is.

[greyflcn]

Except guess who gets saddled with that Risk when things go bad?

US Taxpayer, and Pension Holders.

greyfalcon. net/ cds

greyfalcon. net/ cds2

[stratvic]

"Except guess who gets saddled with that Risk when things go bad?"

That is a political choice to saddle the tax payers with risk takers loses. The free market solution is bankruptcy, not bailouts.

Taxpayers are victims not risk takers. Pension holders are investors. They need to take their loses and take responsibility for their decisions.

[ipbalkenende]

@stravic

Yes it is a free society because if you don't like the rules you can always leave. Your whining about 'looting' only shows you are an extremist who is fundamentally confused about the concept of democracy and a republic. Look if you want to live in a society not built on all these public works like roads and interstates, but also social security and so on you are perfectly free to do so. And if you think we should move away from such a society you are perfectly free to convince us.

[ipbalkenende]

[cont]

But you are not a victim of oppression no matter how much you fancy yourself one. This is not your land the contract you signed said you play by the rules of uncle sam. Don't you conservatives believe in buyers beware? Luckily for you lots of people are still willing to pay a good price for those goods if you don't like the contract and you can leave.

[stratvic]

A free society does not require one to leave just to decide not to participate. If you want to use the accept it or leave you can not also claim to be land of the free. You will need to be the land of the conforming.

I am offended to be referred to as a conservative.

[stratvic]

US citizens can not leave. They pay US taxes regardless.

[ipbalkenende]

@stratvic

You of course give up your citizenship numbnuts.

OR you can stop being such a whiny crybaby and argue for your positions and take part in the democratic process rather than pretending it is unfair.

[stratvic]

That assumes that you can pick up another citizenship.

My objection to voting is an objection to majority rule. Mob rule is no substitute for freedom.

[side1981]

And libertarians confuse mod rule for democracy.

[stratvic]

Democracy is majoritarianism which is majority rule which running at full speed and efficiency is rule by mob.

I am not sure whether or why you would think that libertarians have a specific or different view to what democracy is. The definitions are the same for all sides. i.e. democracy is rule by the people through majority rule.

[side1981]

I'm saying that libertarians are in practice highly antidemocratic. The policies that advocate concentrate power into the hands of the wealthy and defend this by using very shallow rhetoric that uses buzz words and platitudes about freedom, liberty.

[stratvic]

Are you mistaking libertarians for anarchists? Libertarians believe in government, anarchists don't believe in rulers- democracy being rule by majority. Libertarians may or may not prefer majority rule. It is true though that libertarians have a preference for freedom. Where libertarians logic breaks down into contradiction is where their idea of freedom meets their ideas of government and its role.

Libertarians do prefer to arbitrarily limit government and therefore limit democratic rule.

[side1981]

When I mean Libertarian I mean Ron Paul supporters, people who think Milton Firedman isn't full of shit and objectivist. Who all basically belive that the private sector can't be tyrannical because only the government can be. Anyone can claim that removing social program and privatization of infrastructure leads to a freer society is beyond me.

And I've read enough Orwell to know what an actual anarchist is.

[stratvic]

Ron Paul and his supporters believe in democracy. This should be completely obvious because Ron Paul runs for democratically elected public office and his supporters are actively involved in encouraging people to vote for their candidate. That would make their ideology highly democratic or at least compatible with democracy.

Social programs are two sided. When ever you give with one hand you must take with the other. In politics one persons social program is another's enslavement.

[side1981]

Ron Pauls voting record proves he's loon plain and simple. His support for genocide and the gold standard are proof of that. Not mention he attracts support from the likes of Stormfronters and freepers.

All Paul wants to do is hand infrastructure to private hands and empower states so that Jim Crow can make a comeback.

[stratvic]

So you agree Ron Paul is pro democracy? It is just you don't share his opinions.

The little I know about Ron Paul's policies contradict your dispersions. Mostly I think he wants to constrain government to what they are legally permitted to do in the constitution. I think he is better described as a constitutionalist than as a libertarian.

[side1981]

"Restraining the government" is code for privatization deregulation, which removes control of resources away from democratic control. Both practices simply empower the wealthy.

And saying he just goes by the constitution is a copout used to defend things like his no vote on H.R. 180. Constitution is a document that can a should be changed as the governed see fit. There is no point when it was perfect least of all when it was first drafted. It was and remains a highly flawed document.

[stratvic]

Restraining the government applies to both economic and civil liberties. It is about limiting tyrannical control. Wrestling control from any form of government enhances freedom and prosperity democraticly ruled or not.

I agree that the constitution is not perfect but unrestrained democracy is tyranny. The history of the formation of most of the worlds democracies is that they were designed with protection from the tyranny of the majority front of mind.

[side1981]

Oh I see taking power from the government is always a good thing and private companies and citizens can never tyrannical.

Honestly, how anyone can say taking resources from democratic control, is ever a good thing is beyond me. One only has to look at the history of water privatization to see what happens when important resources are in private control.

[stratvic]

It is difficult to be a tyrant without invoking the use of force and holding people to something against there will. Civil society operates on volition not coercion and force, that is governments modus operandi.

Ever wondered why the government does not manage the food supply?

Ever wondered why successful businesses are not democratically run (they have that option)?

Ever wondered why the army is not a democracy?

Democracy is always a last resort not a first resort for good reasons.

[thucy2]

I've seen varying #s on what % of the stimulus does what, but I agree the infrastructure portion is too small. I know a major part of the "stimulus" was more tax cuts for business-put in to win those 3 GOP Senate Votes. There's also a hunk that goes to the states to deal with their own budget shortfalls, caused by the recession, otherwise they'd be laying off more police, fire fighters, teachers, etc.

As for "spying...illegal wars...torturing..." I think you and I are in total agreement.

[stratvic]

8% on infrastructure is the highest I have seen.  Most estimates are 4%.

All this spending is future taxation increases. I think the size is more important than who gets what. When government redistributes wealth it is from the productive to the unproductive.

We are just hoping the 1% that pay 40% of federal taxes keep bothering to turn up at work and don't leave for lower tax jurisdictions.

As for the GOP this is a government criticism not a partisan one.

[MrBloody32]

recovery[dot]gov/?q=content/in­vestments

Don't pretend to be ignorant. Now be specific: which investment categories do you take issue with?

[SATANSbankers]

World Wide Military Expenditures

Country Military expenditures - dollar figure Budget Period

World$1100 billion 2004 est.

Rest-of-World [all but USA]$500 billion 2004 est.

1)UNITED STATES $623 BILLION FY08 budget

No wonder we're Broke and in DEBT

2) China $65.0 billion 2004 CHINA, CHINA Spends $65 Billion to our $623 BILLION

3)Russia $50.0 billion

4)France $45.0 billion 2005

5)United Kingdom $42.8 billion

[obvlexi]

of course republicans want more military spending, they are the most bloodthirsty, violent, vengeful, brutal, warmongering of all Americans

[MrMojoRisinII]

They want more spening just as long as the money comes out of someone else's pocket...

[CastorT64]

Obama is a moron.

[jefjef5]

deep stuff.

[milkgodnl]

I simply *love* Krugman's sense of irony ..

[fosponomot]

is the average, casual viewer aware how completely full of shit newt is and how completely earnest and forthright Krugman is? complete opposites sitting right next to each other.

[terrence0258]

Newt is a complete jackass and I'm ashamed to be from the same state as him.

[squidb8]

Actually Cutting defense spending does cost jobs, but what was the point.

AH, I get it. Defense spending IS government spending and therefore if defense spending adds to the workforce then Government adds jobs then the stimulus bill, which is Government spending will add jobs.

[freesk8]

I hate Krugman, but he is right in this case.

Krugman does believe that increased government taxation and spending can create net jobs. I think that increased government taxation and spending almost always destroys net jobs.

But Krugman is right that the GOP can't have it both ways.

The GOP should stick to fiscally conservative principles and sound economics by denouncing both military and non-military spending increases.

Oh, well.

[busherbee]

stick to? the GOP hasn't been conservative for over 30 years! That's false advertising.

[imaginepeace63]

defense spending cost peoples lives

[ImproveYourMagic]

Well said.

[maxistsocialist]

Republicans are hardcore evil and spooky. Some guy said that Republican Party controls the Democrat Party. He said that USA only has 1 party (Republicans) and that Democrat is just a wing and caucus of the Republican Mafia Cartel)

[marniespeaks]

The Republicans and some Democrats are the servants of their wealthy socialist elite masters.

Soon as the majority of American People catch on to that there will be real change.

WAKE UP!

[integral]

oh now you're just being silly

[squidb8]

Thats interesting that your name is Marine Speaks. Because as a Marine your a servant to those who are servants to their so called wealthy socialist masters.

But by all means coninue this thought, draw us a line from (A)GOP & Dems, and (B) These wealthy socialist masters.

[wmg111]

erm....I think you'll see the name is Marniespeaks. Not marine.

Sorry.

[marniespeaks]

I think the cephalopod needs glasses.

[squidb8]

oops, ha ha, dran that dsylexai

[WKaliberr]

there is not such thing as liberal and conservative anyone, at least not when it comes to people in power

Bush, McCain were never conservative, Obama and Pelosi are not liberal

they're almost the same party

[nekedemus]

The question is who is telling them what they can do or not.

[Richardgwm]

Why isn't Krugman the president's economic advisor?

[micahgee]

hes not responsible for the economic crisis, so he cant be =S

[ver506]

Because yu can't hire everybody! The president has good economic advisors....he can't please everyone though......

[CarryANation]

Obama's economic advisers are all criminals, and the same people who committed the fraud that got us into this mess.

Tell me how Geithner or Summers are "good" in any way?

[ver506]

There's nothing i could possibly say to convince you about this. Your mind's already made up. Like i said, can't please everyone....

[CarryANation]

I was happy when Obama hired Volcker, but now the others have even infected Volcker and he's supporting the fraudulent PIPP scheme.

I have a feeling the only reason you think Obama's advisers are good is because they are Obama's advisers, am I right?

[ver506]

Before you put me into some box and label me, i just wanted to say that this is not about Obama. Even his economic team/advisors are dealing with something they've never dealt with before. The easiest thing right now is to criticize these people.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with me, i don't know you. But it sounds shallow that you thought Volker was good, until he does something you don't agree with.

We can agree to disagree on this, that works for me.

[taoofmichael]

They know where the bodies are buried.

[sgilman]

They recognized the scope of the crisis and (with Paulsen) stepped in before it was too late.

If you can't see why that's a good thing, you need to go read a history book.

[dogstar7]

Krugman is spot on.

Reading the comments, no disputing what he's saying, just smears and insults. That usually means he's right but the sore heads can't stand it.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

Krugman is American as such his understanding of the world around him is deficient, but he may very well understand his won country even if he misses the point of the rest of the world.

[dogstar7]

Thank you for a Canadian's opinion about Americans. Do you have any other generalizations you would like to share with us regarding people elsewhere in the world whom you don't live among?

[LeGioNoFZioN]

yes I do, Canadians are self delusional, West Indians actually have the most freedom, Trini's and Guayanese cook the best food, and the reson Europe's health care is best is because they all have mixed system's unlike Canada and America.

[dogstar7]

Thanks for taking my admittedly sour reply in good humor. I take your point about Trinidadian food ("getta geera f'om de Pie-Mon") and also EU health care.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

no prob, I still think Americans don't understand the world around them whether right or left, but cheers !

[sexdrugsRnR]

Krugman = governmental tool

[kelseywall]

How so?

[sexdrugsRnR]

lewrockwell. com/blog/lewrw/archives/025926­.html

[voyeurdug]

Every time I hear a conservative taking down a fellow conservative, my blood pressure and cholesterol (LDL) levels go down, and my LOL level goes up.

[majorgeek]

Paul Krugman isn't a conservative.

[voyeurdug]

His Wikipedia profile is mixed on that. He says he's liberal, and he wrote, "The Conscience of a Liberal"... buuut he's opposed ALMOST anything with Obama's, Geithner's, or Pelosi's fingerprints on it.

[SYNICtheAtheist]

Well yeah. Obama Geitherner and pelosi aren't liberal. If you know what a liberal is you know they aren't.

[majorgeek]

That's because the Obama-Geithner plan isn't broad enough in scope. Alot of liberals, myself and Krugman included, feel let down that the Obama administration has fallen short of creating a "New New Deal" sort of plan for rebuilding the economy and the nation.

[DoctorDoubleX]

LOL LMAO = NWO,

NWO is a meme

[kelseywall]

You're a meme.

[averageworkinggal]

FYI, NWO Conspiracy Theory crackpots:

Webster Griffin Tarpley recently announced the nonexistence of the military industrial complex on his crackpot radio show last week.

[boots920]

The 5.0 Dead Vietnam people

The 2.0 Dead Cambodian and Laos people

The 1.2 Dead Iraqi People

The 60,000 Dead Patriots from the Vietnam War

The 75,000 Homeless Vets from the Vietnam War

The 60,000 Wounded Vets from the Iraq War

Might disagree but then their dead and or so wounded and homeless they have very little say in today's world. It doesn't exist only because US citizens are ignorant of the facts.

[kelseywall]

You should take English Grammar lessons.

[boots920]

English Grammar lessons won't matter if I'm dead from starvation.

Hyper-Inflation in 30 to 90 days the lesson has been taught before but the masses never learn and will perish in mass once again.

[SubmarinerAndroid]

The strongest supporters of the Military-Industrial Complex (the death industry) are the ones who call themselves Pro-Life.

[terpis]

Well yes, but the military-industrial nanny-state supports the bombing of powerless brown people, which is the wingnut national pasttime, and so a crucial part of our God-given heritage.

Krugman, you pinko.

[kelseywall]

Lol.

[dogstar7]

"nanny state" "pinko"

Another "culture warrior" heard from.

Just another echo from the chamber.