Nice Visiter-Video. I know this Stolpersteine activeties. Only remembering this silent wittnesses that will bring nothing. Many times in german television they show the time of hitler and parts of his weekly propaganda movies. The moderation is like ,,Thís is the bad and this was the good". Its a new kind of philosophy. The bad past. Do´nt remember me whats going on today, not only in politic - mobbing by neighbours is a new kind of world war III. Are we all crazy?
I'm a 30 year old German from nearby Frankfurt. You asked in your post about the opinion of Germans on that. I can give you only poor statistical evidence by my answer but for me it is a great idea. I always have been interested in the way people deal with our past, the very humble, effectice way Demnig is doing it is for me better than any weird "policital correctness" behaviour, any museum and any visitable concentration camp. It simply says:if you want, you can remember me.
Ah cool! Thanks for your answer. I agree with what you say, these are simple and easily ignored if you're not interested but easily found if you are.
Germany's past is a simple fact, made complicated by people's attitudes to it. I want modern Germans to be able to be proud to be German. At the same time, people must remember that the war is a fascinating subject for outsiders and our wanting to know sometimes clashes with people wanting to forget.
Vielleicht wäre es auch angebracht mal vor Abtreibungskliniken Stolpersteine zu verlegen.
In einem der reichsten Länder des Planeten, werden jährlich hunderttausende Ungeborene auf Geheiss der eigenen Mutter und unter Mithilfe unserer Politiker ermordet.
Etwaige wirtschaftliche Gründe sind nur vorgeschoben.
Aber es ist natürlich viel einfacher in die Vergangenheit zu sehen und sich toll vorzukommen, als die vor unseren Augen stattfindenden Ungeborenenmorde zu thematisieren.
Wow. I can certainly understand why the German people would not want to be reminded of the events of WWII. My own grandparents were Austrian Jews who fled the country when Hitler came to power. However, I think most intelligent people know the present day German people had nothing to do with what occurred, and the country is a totally different place today. I can also understand the mixed emotions regarding the memorials. Tough subject. It must be interesting to go there in person.
The funny thing was this weekend, my girlfriend was asked if she felt guilt over the British colonial era racist and arguably genocidal treatment of the Australian Aborigines. She was asked this by a 60 year old Austrian woman. Apparently she had no sense of irony.
Thank you for your answer; this explains some of your travel. This is certainly a beautiful town to live in. I wish you best of luck in moving. Your video brings up the entire subject of how people recognise/respect their relatives and friends after they pass. There are proably many different ways throughout the world. Interesting.
I'm glad it helped. The vast majority of my travel has been to see specific people though, and to check out things while I'm out of the house. It kind of feeds on itself.
Yes, this one is definitely interesting (and controversial) but the relatives are involved. They're generally the people who do the research & gather the support info, and pay for the plaque to go in. I'm glad you got something out of it.
Thanks for this video. This was interesting and something I did not know. The town looks beautiful (background). I can understand the mixed emotions. This in no way compares; in our town, if a loved one dies, you can buy a park bench (wooden)and have the persons name and dates of birth and death burned onto it. We have benches all over town now.
That actually compares quite well - I'm sure no-one objects to the idea of people sitting on the memorial chairs the same way they 'object' to people walking on these memorials. It's a very good point. We have the same sort of benches here, just not in huge numbers.
The town is very pretty - I'm thinking of moving there.
Yeah, she's still over there and is looking at staying longer.
No problem with specifics - I certify aircraft as being Airworthy to fly on the Australian register. It's like the compliance certification you do with cars if you import them. If I go to Europe, I'd be looking to certify new planes and helicopters as they're manufactured, before they're shipped to Australia (saves the client time & money).
Wow - those plaques are pretty, yet upsetting at the same time.
The range of reactions you found to them is interesting. They must 'press different buttons' for different people.
I enjoyed this. I havent been to Germany for years - but loved it and enjoyed your 'walk and talk' with the wonderful background too. I am 'part-German' and always felt an affinity to the country when I went connected to O and A level studies.
Thanks for this video and best wishes for the weekend.
I couldn't agree more. It's a pretty easy place to feel at home in. Despite the language barrier and cultural differences, I slot in there quite easily. The town is really pretty too. My GF's place is in the 'Old Town' heart (I actually walk past her front door at one stage in the video).
I had no idea just how controversial (in the difference-of-opinion way) they would be until I started making this video. I guess we all learn something through YT. Tiny little research projects...
Nah. I had cornflakes for lunch yesterday. I craved salt this morning. So, I had some of my roommates chinese ramen (?)and now I'm drinking a huge cup of Irish breakfast tea.
LOL! Getting in training with the tea are you? Did you get sent a package then? ;D
Ah, ramen - you really are getting into the Uni lifestyle! Best ones in the world are Indomie brand 'Mee Goreng' flavour. They have 5 flavouring sachets which all adds up to awesome!
I'm waiting for package. Guess...I should add tea to my list. So far, I've asked for a flag, newspaper, and jelly babies. :)
hahaha Nah. I have the most cooking stuff in the dorm I bet. I just haven't had the time. I had to vacuum yesterday. And do you know how hard it is to carry up a big vacuum up four flights of steps?
Gonna make something proper soon. I have a short day tomorrow so, I'll probably make dinner then. :D
LOL! I live on the 4th floor. Try it with a fridge and then we can compare stories! ;P
OMG - don't forget to ask for Irish made Cadbury's plain Dairy Milk chocolate. It's a different formula and is awesome. (it's the same as they use for the 'Flake' chocolate bar in Australia)
Oh, and get on whatever meal club they have on campus. It'll be a great idea long term.
Great video I've visited Germany many times. A dear German friend told me that the German flag is controversial - possessing one could be seen as 'being proud'. Sad. I guess the intensity of this will lessen as those directly affected pass on. But we have victims & their offspring whose mantra is "Never forget" & Germans who are sorry, in denial or apathetic. This could take a while. The lesson, which America is also learning re: slavery-once committed, these atrocities reverberate thru time
I think the ability to display German national pride is coming back through of all things, football. It's the main time that Germans can dress up in colours & wave the flag & have fun & pride doing it.
One thing I didn't cover in the video is that the Germans HAVE accepted their role in bad things from WWII, something Japan seems not to have done. Of course I still like Japan & the Japanese too, even though they (as a nation) tried to invade my country & kill my Grandfather.
Let's hope Mr Z doesn't mind me barging in again. You indirectly speaking of one of the "N" words and the repeated discussions in US media reminds me of always wanting to know ... Errrm ... What exactly is it with English language countries and the over-use of "Nazi" (the other "N" word?)
Doesn't that also mean to put any of the war crimes and crimes against humans that have been committed into a very odd perspective?
Don't people get that additional point of industrialising unbelievable cruelty to fellow human beings? (If one compares it to other ... mass murder ... ethical cleansing ...? Even ones going on right now.)
Ridicule, comedy or documetary about Nazis is one thing, but using it in everyday language as belittling term? Somehow i fail to understand that.
I don't see the use of 'Nazi' in everyday speech as belittling the acts of or suffering under the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. The first time I ever realised there could even be a confusion was talking to a German visitor (coincidentally one of the people appearing in the 'Walk to Switzerland' video years later) where I referred to particular landlords as a 'Total Nazis' and he asked 'Are they fascists?'
I think in other parts of the world, there is a clear distinction.
I guess we would have to agree to disagree then. Never comprehended why that word would so readily be used in this way.
Ah. Yes, i think i've seen that walk video before getting the account. GB= Großherzogtum Baden :)
I wish there would be less digital borders in the world, because i like the fact Swiss TV almost always shows things with the option of original language sound track. (Learning by watching bad Hollywood movies.)
But getting completely off topic. Maybe :) It's your video so one could talk about the NASA mars lander (Phoenix) finding little green men on mars. :)
monoCluttermatt: The beauty of discussion is that we are not required to agree - in fact it works better if we don't. Thankyou for putting your point of view forward beyond a quick "nice video".
Ah yes - after struggling to find an English language cinema in France I very much appreciate the original language option!
As you can see from the discussion below with my friend ThreeofThree on the topic of ramen, I don't have particularly tight 'rules' on my video comment threads!
Thanks for posting this, Michael. An interesting topic to bring into discussion. I can see both benefit and detriment to their being located in so many different places, such as in front of homes, and also the fact that they are placed in the street. This latter aspect alone I can see could be a difficult issue, for this location still forces the names of those victims to be trod upon which in and of itself creates a conditiion of continued guilt for residents of the towns. It would seem to...
(cont'd) ...me that if their location were either centralized, or at least placed upon the walls at eye level, then rememberance and respect might be paid by one's own volition and thus more respectful. (I said above "placed in the street". I meant in the walkways.) Although being in the walkways forces personal contact, and thus by intent a forced attention, I think it also is at least by implication a furthering of disrespect of those victims; a continuation of the disrespect fostered by...
(cont'd_2)...the Nazi regime. This, in effect, victimizes the townspeople to some extent by forcing upon them a residual legacy of that regime, and thus a forced guilt. I'm sure a conversation with those residents would yield much discussion, but my initial reaction is that their being located in the walkways is rather inappropriate for the above mentioned reasons.
Yes, I included the cigarette butt in one of the still photos to illustrate the point that they are placed in the real world (the town is actually very clean though).
I think I prefer this to a central memorial because it makes it very personal. _This_ person lived in _this_ house. It changes it from some abstract concept into a very one-on-one thing.
I suspect if they're in the (town's) street it's harder for people to stop them than if they were trying to attach them to private property.
Sorry to barge in here for a second. Do i get you (US Michael :) right that you really think this could be an uninterrupted continuation of crimes against humans by the Nazi regime?
I doubt very much that these Stolpersteine would have had any noticable impact on national discussion about the subject of Aufarbeitung, if they would not be exactly put where they are.
For harleynanda - "Aufarbeitung" as I understand it in this context means "rehabilitation" and is related to the term "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" which is "coming to terms with the past" - both crucial concepts in the reconciliation of the current German population with the acts of the past.
You can cut & paste Vergangenheitsbewältigung into Wikipedia for a synopsis of the concept.
A native German speaker may be able to clarify any translation or implication errors I have made.
"Aufarbeitung" to me means exactly what is going on with this Stoplersteine project. Finding out what happened to whom and at last/least doing anything at all about it. Not letting paper records get even more rotten than they already are. Etc ... ("Arbeit" = work)
"Bewältigung" is kind of the look back at a mountain that has already been finished or is near to being finished. And more like the "rug swiping". Something like that.
(very close to the opposite of the meaning of "überwältigt" (cntd)
Maybe i'm completely wrong in my freaky personal definitions of concepts and words :)
"reconciliation" reminds me of the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" of South Africa. I don't question the validity of such an organisation but it is kind of freaky that still too many have to die there because of skin color. Just now the black / white "roles" are reversed.
monoCluttermatt: Regarding your original question, I think perhaps you are interpreting my statement a bit severly. What I was saying was that by putting these plaques in the walkways, the names of these people are then underfoot and are trod upon. I don't think there was any ill conceived intent to this, as a walkway is a public commons, but that in so doing it subliminally suggests that those victims are still underfoot and not raised to an appropriate place of respect. I think it would ...
(cont'd)...have been better if these victims names were placed on the walls of the appropriate buildings and elevated to eye level where equal attention is paid, but in a more respectful position. By forcing the townspeople to trod upon the names of these victims, the implied suggestion to the townsperson pedestrian is that they are having to assume the same 'posture' of guilt, for they are forced to trod upon those victims in perpetuity. It is a therefor a subliminal psychological effect.
(cont'd_2)...In essence, to stand upon the name of a victim is akin to standing upon a grave, which is a disrespectful gesture. My point is that by placing these shrines underfoot, it is a continuation of subliminal disrespect by way of gesture. I don't believe this was done intentionally, but that the subliminal impact was overlooked when the design concept was originated.
harleynanda: This is exactly one of the points of contention of the project. You hit the nail on the head. When I was taking the still shots of the plaques, I made sure the cigarette butt was in frame to highlight this aspect of it.
I do get your point and don't. This was the main objection to the project at the beginning by the Central Council of Jews in Germany (Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland). And why few city governments have decided not to allow these Stolpersteine at their property. I'm not sure what CCoJiG's stand on it is right now, but i think if there still were any strong feelings against it i would have read about it.
I guess i do see more of the pragmatic symbolism, someone was dragged out of
their home RIGHT HERE at this pavement. I really think this is the more prevalent point. Plonk, right here. Not a central memorial (plonk, some stones at the central memorial in Berlin, done), not a plaque, but right here. Fabric of this street.
And it is a dynamic, organic process, that still goes on as more of these Stolpersteine are put in.
I guess you would have to ask Mr Deming, as i take many of his prior (art) installations were most certainly intended to p*** people off at first,
to initiate some thought process. Call it controversial if you will.
Back from poking around The Internets [tm], found the thoughts of the vice president of the CCoJiG on the subject, it just happens to be the very view i'm expressing. He also mentions the Hollywood Walk of Fame. A memorial that you can walk on.
(Michael has put the link into the side panel because it does not go through spam filtering. Thanks!)
monoCluttermatt: These words have subtlety and nuance which go beyond their dictionary definitions, so I feel you are justified in having a personal perspective on them.
The black/white discrimination reversal was something I experienced on a previous trip to Mozambique. It was a real eye-opener, and something everyone should go through, if only for a moment.
Great and interessting vlog - i also did not hear about the Stolpersteine yet.
My comment regarding the "don't want to be remembered"-thing. I don't think that there is any 'reasoable' person who wants this all to be forgotten and we germans know about our guilt. The problem is, that times have changed and we have changed - because of WWII no german is able to say "i am proud to be german" without a bitter taste in his mouth.
So i guess many people just don't want, that we are reduced to what happend then.
What happened during WWII is present everywhere - in TV (just watch phoenix or channels like that), in school (each year in almost each subject), and in existing memorials.
So I guess this is the reason why there are people who say "we just don't want more of it - we build memorials to show the world we have changed, but all this does is to keep the opionion that we are nazis and have to atone"
I agree - the part where German national pride is misinterpreted is a bad thing. You guys have a great country and SHOULD be proud of it.
Everyone knows the history (or at least parts of it) but there comes a time when the national identity should be rebuilt, along with the buildings.
The thing I like about the Stolpersteine is that they are small and you almost have to go looking for them, but they are a true memorial because you think of the people.
That's quite a whooping big can of history right up to present you've opened up there ...
No matter what one writes in this setting (YT, comments, 500 char nonsense ...) it will most certainly come across as either too flippant or "too political"?
Well, here goes nothing.
(I'll mark the end with EOMPC, end of multiple post comment.)
History is alway something that can be told trough many different accounts. Or views. Or pink glasses. You can ask many eye-witnesses about the same instance,
everyone will see things at least a little bit different. (Flippant poke: take 888 for example :)
But there usually is something that will stand out and stick with generations to come. This dark chapter of German history is part of German history, and will forever stay a part of German history, no matter how many revisionists come along and try to change it.
With that in mind, there are people here who honestly think it's a good idea to resurrect the "3rd Reich". Or something like it.
This threat to the constitution and to society isn't just something theoretical & hypothetical, but very real.
People are singled out because of their beleifs or lifestyle or disability or skin. And killed. Just like that. That's supposed to be a good thing? In what world is that a good thing? Think Khmer Rouge and picking out people just by wearing eye-glasses. (Flippant: boy, YT would be soooo deserted ... contact lenses count tooo ...? :)
(IMHO Misconception: "3rd Reich s'all 'bout The Jews [tm]!" Well, no it isn't. It's about people and dehumanizing and humiliating them up to killing them because of their beleifs or lifestyle or disability or skin.)
So if these Stolpersteine are doing even the smallest thing to remember people who lived in a house they are placed in front of, in my mind there really isn't any discussion necessary whether or not these should be there. Not the least bit. If it helps researching what happend to
some of the millions of people, if it helps with some kind of Aufarbeitung (the "Bewältigung" in Vergangenheitsbewältigung would sound too strange here), why would anybody object to it?
Humans that were branded and dehumanized with numbers are remembered as human life stories and names on Stolpersteine ... (A name getting there always means that someone had to research the human behind it.)
This is about the humans, not foremost about guilt, not about pointing at anyone. That point of the
Stolpersteine might be easy to overlook. A lot of people apparently just did not get this in the beginning.
I take it as fact that this Aufarbeitung is JUST NOW (!) beginning to happen AT ALL. (I usually hate when politicians flap their mouth needlessly, but one could google Mr Rau or Mrs Merkel and Knesset. Hilarity ensues ...? "Mit der Reichsbahn in den Tod" should also be "fun". Or "Wehret den Anfängen" as Cicero quote. That's one odd way to learn German ... Errrh ...? You asked for it ...?)
My guess would be that swiping under the rug motion started right whith the denazification.
What you might also not immediately know, this whole subject is taught in school here. Some of the kids might feel too much so. (Penny dropping here. So that's where these childish "Opfer" comments at Mr Pockhuhn's come from ...?? One gigantic pile of poo that would be ...? This scares me.)
Great to learn that the Stolpersteine have spread to more of the formerly occupied countries.
Oh, as tiny suggestion, was that the original question ??! if you're searching for the few visible signs of WW2 and aftermath that do exist at all (don't mention the war ... don't mention the war ... do you know Fawlty Towers? S1 Ep6 :) you could start with exactly that. Signs. Street signs or street names. Maybe names of schools. Mileage may vary considerably depending on town/city.
And somewhat frequently there are evacuations, because a WW2 bomb that did not go off at the time has been uncovered by digging at building sites. That's also a constant.
And now (whenever anyone crazy enough reads these spelling mistakes of mine) please get back to watching kittens waving at you ...?
Thanks for the well thought through response. I think you still haven't broken my own panel count record though. ;D
I think the issues you talk about, the memorials, the reconciliation, the learning of history and the prevention or a recurrance are exactly what these things are all about. I guess it's all there in the name - 'Stumbling Blocks'. These are the issues we all must climb over to proceed. They transcend the simple Denkmal memorials.
Errm. You do take this with the appropriate amount of (ir)reverence. Could have told us it is some kind of competition :)
(This kind of was the edited down version.)
I think the 10 minute break is one of the reasons you won't see much of this ghost in the future youtubian machine. That and i can't "really" contribute anything to a video site without a cam. Nor am i particularly keen on appearing on cam. As soon as the US TV shows start again in a while, mind numbing also shall commence again.
YT is interesting. Kind of. You can be brutally honest, and nobody will take a single sillable of it for fact, because there is just so much great acting going on :)
I prefer to give YT the benefit of the doubt. I've only seen one incidence of manufactured drama, and I unsubbed and never looked back. Simple. I just moved on.
It's hard within the constraints of the system to get everything across that needs to be said. Hopefully I raise issues that could be the subject of hours of debate. The fact that I raise them in this forum is a tradeoff between the size of the outgoing message vs the content of the incoming.
It's strange I guess for both of us coming from countries with short histories & being dumped in ones with long ones. I wish I was able to be there with you for your discovery adventures. I think we have and are going through the same things.
I can understand the diversity of opinions on the issue of Stolpersteine, but for me they are a relatively subtle but ever-present memorial to those who were killed. I would like to remember them and be reminded of it all, even if it is painful. And as Muserine said, they can be reminders of the lives of those people, not just their deaths.
In a documentary I once saw, a man was tracing his ancestry back and one of these Stolperstein was the closest he ever got to his great grandparents. There are no graves for them that he can visit because they were killed in prison camps and presumably dumped in mass graves. And so those Stolpersteine meant all the world to him - finally he felt like he had somewhere he could pay his last respects. I think that is the most important function these plaques will serve in years to come
Good point Jen, I'd like to think of them as reminders as well that we shouldn't make the same mistakes over again.. The Holocaust was a horrible moment of history for the world, These are reminders that people were taken from their homes and enslaved and murdered because of a religion.. I think they serve a bigger purpose as a reminder, not to pain people about the past.. Kind of a memorial of sorts..
OK, I'm staggered that you knew what these were, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your depth of knowledge anymore. That's a very cool story.
From my personal point of view, I see them as a good thing. They are very poingnant, and as my GF says, there is no getting around the fact that this is a part of history that will never stop being interesting. As usual, I can also see it from the point of view of the locals who are sick of having to live with reminders. Hence the video I guess.
I think you and I could talk endlessly on this topic as it is very much suited to our mentalities. I'm sure we will at some point too. It was interesting for me to get a local of roughly my own age, start drinking heavily and then bring up the topic. There is a depth of feeling there that is logical but not exactly expected. The problem is, like I said, that if you speak out against them, you are seen as anti-semitic, where all you want is a normal life. No aspect of the issue is fair.
That's incredible. I've never heard of the plaques before. That would would be very controversial. I don't know how I'd feel walking over one everyday to get home. Then again, it is a really beautiful idea to have the reminder.
Yes, I'm definitely in two minds about them Shauna. The good thing is that they're easy to tune out, the way you don't notice manhole covers or whatever, but they are right outside people's houses, so if you live there, it'd be hard to miss them, especially if you hated them. In one case, a compromise was reached and they were set at the edge of the footpath, not directly in front of the house. Oh, and they can devalue property too, which annoys people.
I like the project. And I see it in a slightly different light. It's not only a reminder of guilt, because to be honest, we don't really need that. It's everywhere anyways.
Jewish culture was a big part of german lifestyle before Hitler. But since it has been almost completely erased, it's hard to imagine how it was for today's people. There are a lot of Stolpersteine around where I live and I always read them and try to imagine the people behind the names. Not their deaths, but their lifes.
I think it's a way of showing that the jewish people really lived all across the country back then and are not only the victims of a terrible crime documented in history books etc.
It's interesting to try & imagine what Germany would be like with such a big Jewish influence as it used to have. Today we see the same issues with (for example) Turkish immigration in Germany where it brings diversity, but also brings tensions.
Australia has in many ways embraced its immigrant population, but only after a while. Always the latest wave of immigrants are seen as a problem. After a generation or so, they seem to be accepted, but then the tension moves on to the next group.
It's that sense of guilt that I was trying to get at in the second half of the story. I'm not sure where the Germans think it's coming from, but it's certainly not anyone I know. I guess it's hard for older generations to separate the history from the current people (and they've earned their opinions through experience) but for us now, there is very little connection with the past.
I think it is a shame that "the current people" have "very little connection with the past", as those who do not know history are destined to repeat it. That War (WWII) was very much part of my childhood. I had an uncle who was commanding general of the Berlin airlift after serving as Allied Commander, Indochina and commanding the invasion of what is now Vietnam. The factors that figured into WWII and the Cold War, made current by recent events in Georgia, are deeply embedded in my psyche.
Sorry David - I should have been more clear. By "the current people" have "very little connection with the past" I mean the _actual_ people. The Germans are all actuely, and painfully aware of their country's history, and they have taken huge steps to prevent these things happening again.
My Mum's family in were bombed by the Germans & my Grandfather fought in the Middle East & the Pacific, but now these people are my friends & the country is my second home. I cover this in a coming video.
Wow, they are very easy to miss, at least by me. I would have assumed they had something to do with the sewer system. I would get sad if I had something like that on the entrance to my home =(
Yeah, they look a lot like survey markers or any of the other things that are in the pavement until you get up close and read them. Also, being in German, it's easy for an outsider to miss them. I think having to look at them every day is what the locals object to, which is part of the point of the video - it's not as simple an idea as it sounds.
There was a similar project on campus here at cal poly: red hand prints painted on the ground at sites of sexual assaults. The administration decided to remove them from around the dorms.
"some parents wanted their students relocated because of them.
'The focus became there's something bad with this place, What was lost was that the badness is not with the place but with the people.'"
Oh yeah, I can totally see how that would freak people out! I think there was one State in the US that put up white crosses at fatal accident sites to warn speeding motorists. It'd be hard to see the red hands as anything other than a warning. I mean would you be happy moving your daughter into a dorm with 20 red hands outside it?
The white crosses are usually put up by the family or friends of the deceased, not by the States. You will find these throughout the southeast and also in Mexico, and I suspect south of Mexico as well.
Yes - I understood the crosses to be in Montana, but when I was checking facts for my comment I found that most States either don't allow them or have a time limit on how long they can be there. There has been controversy with them in Australia as well.
My knowledge is limited to my own observations while driving. Unlike you I never researched the topic. It is my impression that the practice is a component of certain sub-cultures. My sub-culture does not do this sort of thing.
LOL! I'd hate to pass off my 30 seconds on Wikipedia as 'research', more as just making sure I wasn't making any wild errors (like the first version of this Stolpersteine video which was so factually inaccurate I had to refilm it.)
I agree with your take on the crosses. I don't think it's something I would do, and I find them ever so slightly disconcerting.
This is very thought-provoking. I need to think my way through the topic before offering any comments. I think half-baked ideas are not appropriate on such a serious topic.
No problem David. Even though I specialise in half-baked comments, I can see why you would want to avoid them. Feel free to come back anytime and let me know your thoughts.
Ahh, thank you so much Michael, that was very interesting and I had never heard of those until you told me about them.. I think that they should be there, as reminders of what went on, and it wasn't even like it was that long ago.. You can't forget the past, you should just learn from it.. Thank you again! Awesome video =]
I'm glad you liked it Jordan. Yeah, on face value, it's a good thing, but I sympathise a little with the people who have to live with them every day, long after the artist has left, especially when there is a lot of other pressure about the war like I discussed. The problem is that in trying to get on with life, they skip what is for the rest of us a fascinating peice of history. A tricky dilemma.
Ah, interesting! Considering you live in basically the next town over, I'd assume they'd have them there too. I'd be interested to know if you find any.
(I just checked the artist's site and it says there are some in Karlsruhe.)
Hey! I hadn't realised how close you live to Neustadt. OMG - Neighbours!
Oh thanks for that. I'm never sure if it's a good thing or not. I think that by telling stories all the time, I don't let any of my own personality through, but I guess that's what Gatherings are for! ;D
Zibbeeeeeee!!! I would have a difficult time as historic as it is, to see those memories of something so ghastly. We just can't forget no matter how hard we try anyway. I agree, it is a constant reminder of feeling guilty of something the younger people had absolutely nothing to do with. That's not fair at all. It's impossible to forget. I see also the other side.. families not wanting their loved ones to be forgotten. Great video! You are an Oh Naturel. The scenery is gorgeous = D
Ah yes, the town is pretty cute. It's totally old world German.
Yeah, I agree. I can see both sides of the argument (as usual). I think that the aim here is to provide a memorial without being too in your face about it. They're very easy to miss if you're not looking for them.
Wann kommen die Stolpersteine vor ehemalig palästinensischen Häusern in Israel zu Ehren der ermordeten Hausbesitzer?
boringgeobi
Doroske 1 year ago
Nice Visiter-Video. I know this Stolpersteine activeties. Only remembering this silent wittnesses that will bring nothing. Many times in german television they show the time of hitler and parts of his weekly propaganda movies. The moderation is like ,,Thís is the bad and this was the good". Its a new kind of philosophy. The bad past. Do´nt remember me whats going on today, not only in politic - mobbing by neighbours is a new kind of world war III. Are we all crazy?
steinstop 1 year ago
Hello zebidee55!
I'm a 30 year old German from nearby Frankfurt. You asked in your post about the opinion of Germans on that. I can give you only poor statistical evidence by my answer but for me it is a great idea. I always have been interested in the way people deal with our past, the very humble, effectice way Demnig is doing it is for me better than any weird "policital correctness" behaviour, any museum and any visitable concentration camp. It simply says:if you want, you can remember me.
rantanplan36 3 years ago 2
Ah cool! Thanks for your answer. I agree with what you say, these are simple and easily ignored if you're not interested but easily found if you are.
Germany's past is a simple fact, made complicated by people's attitudes to it. I want modern Germans to be able to be proud to be German. At the same time, people must remember that the war is a fascinating subject for outsiders and our wanting to know sometimes clashes with people wanting to forget.
zebidee55 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Vielleicht wäre es auch angebracht mal vor Abtreibungskliniken Stolpersteine zu verlegen.
In einem der reichsten Länder des Planeten, werden jährlich hunderttausende Ungeborene auf Geheiss der eigenen Mutter und unter Mithilfe unserer Politiker ermordet.
Etwaige wirtschaftliche Gründe sind nur vorgeschoben.
Aber es ist natürlich viel einfacher in die Vergangenheit zu sehen und sich toll vorzukommen, als die vor unseren Augen stattfindenden Ungeborenenmorde zu thematisieren.
fitnessfortruth 11 months ago
Wow. I can certainly understand why the German people would not want to be reminded of the events of WWII. My own grandparents were Austrian Jews who fled the country when Hitler came to power. However, I think most intelligent people know the present day German people had nothing to do with what occurred, and the country is a totally different place today. I can also understand the mixed emotions regarding the memorials. Tough subject. It must be interesting to go there in person.
KevinAM1 3 years ago
The funny thing was this weekend, my girlfriend was asked if she felt guilt over the British colonial era racist and arguably genocidal treatment of the Australian Aborigines. She was asked this by a 60 year old Austrian woman. Apparently she had no sense of irony.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Yeah you!
ThreeofThree 3 years ago
Thank you for your answer; this explains some of your travel. This is certainly a beautiful town to live in. I wish you best of luck in moving. Your video brings up the entire subject of how people recognise/respect their relatives and friends after they pass. There are proably many different ways throughout the world. Interesting.
CharTres1717 3 years ago
I'm glad it helped. The vast majority of my travel has been to see specific people though, and to check out things while I'm out of the house. It kind of feeds on itself.
Yes, this one is definitely interesting (and controversial) but the relatives are involved. They're generally the people who do the research & gather the support info, and pay for the plaque to go in. I'm glad you got something out of it.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Thanks for this video. This was interesting and something I did not know. The town looks beautiful (background). I can understand the mixed emotions. This in no way compares; in our town, if a loved one dies, you can buy a park bench (wooden)and have the persons name and dates of birth and death burned onto it. We have benches all over town now.
CharTres1717 3 years ago
That actually compares quite well - I'm sure no-one objects to the idea of people sitting on the memorial chairs the same way they 'object' to people walking on these memorials. It's a very good point. We have the same sort of benches here, just not in huge numbers.
The town is very pretty - I'm thinking of moving there.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Is your girlfirend still working in Germany? Would you be able to tell me what sort of work you do? No specifics; just wondering.
CharTres1717 3 years ago
Yeah, she's still over there and is looking at staying longer.
No problem with specifics - I certify aircraft as being Airworthy to fly on the Australian register. It's like the compliance certification you do with cars if you import them. If I go to Europe, I'd be looking to certify new planes and helicopters as they're manufactured, before they're shipped to Australia (saves the client time & money).
zebidee55 3 years ago
great video!
SomebodyIusedtoknow 3 years ago
Oh sweet! Thanks - that means a lot coming from you. :D
zebidee55 3 years ago
Wow - those plaques are pretty, yet upsetting at the same time.
The range of reactions you found to them is interesting. They must 'press different buttons' for different people.
I enjoyed this. I havent been to Germany for years - but loved it and enjoyed your 'walk and talk' with the wonderful background too. I am 'part-German' and always felt an affinity to the country when I went connected to O and A level studies.
Thanks for this video and best wishes for the weekend.
Sunbeam :)
xxxSunbeamxxx 3 years ago
I couldn't agree more. It's a pretty easy place to feel at home in. Despite the language barrier and cultural differences, I slot in there quite easily. The town is really pretty too. My GF's place is in the 'Old Town' heart (I actually walk past her front door at one stage in the video).
I had no idea just how controversial (in the difference-of-opinion way) they would be until I started making this video. I guess we all learn something through YT. Tiny little research projects...
zebidee55 3 years ago
Just seen a great video by the Austrian art group monochrom.
(User grenzfurthner, Video "monochrom: Der Streichelnazi / Nazi Petting Zoo")
Seems awfully fitting on the subject, in a sick kind of way ;)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Woo! Watching this and eating breakfast. :)
ThreeofThree 3 years ago
rofl! War crimes and cornflakes! The start to any great day of learning! ;D
zebidee55 3 years ago
Nah. I had cornflakes for lunch yesterday. I craved salt this morning. So, I had some of my roommates chinese ramen (?)and now I'm drinking a huge cup of Irish breakfast tea.
ThreeofThree 3 years ago
LOL! Getting in training with the tea are you? Did you get sent a package then? ;D
Ah, ramen - you really are getting into the Uni lifestyle! Best ones in the world are Indomie brand 'Mee Goreng' flavour. They have 5 flavouring sachets which all adds up to awesome!
zebidee55 3 years ago
I'm waiting for package. Guess...I should add tea to my list. So far, I've asked for a flag, newspaper, and jelly babies. :)
hahaha Nah. I have the most cooking stuff in the dorm I bet. I just haven't had the time. I had to vacuum yesterday. And do you know how hard it is to carry up a big vacuum up four flights of steps?
Gonna make something proper soon. I have a short day tomorrow so, I'll probably make dinner then. :D
ThreeofThree 3 years ago
LOL! I live on the 4th floor. Try it with a fridge and then we can compare stories! ;P
OMG - don't forget to ask for Irish made Cadbury's plain Dairy Milk chocolate. It's a different formula and is awesome. (it's the same as they use for the 'Flake' chocolate bar in Australia)
Oh, and get on whatever meal club they have on campus. It'll be a great idea long term.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Great video I've visited Germany many times. A dear German friend told me that the German flag is controversial - possessing one could be seen as 'being proud'. Sad. I guess the intensity of this will lessen as those directly affected pass on. But we have victims & their offspring whose mantra is "Never forget" & Germans who are sorry, in denial or apathetic. This could take a while. The lesson, which America is also learning re: slavery-once committed, these atrocities reverberate thru time
testing4echo 3 years ago
I think the ability to display German national pride is coming back through of all things, football. It's the main time that Germans can dress up in colours & wave the flag & have fun & pride doing it.
One thing I didn't cover in the video is that the Germans HAVE accepted their role in bad things from WWII, something Japan seems not to have done. Of course I still like Japan & the Japanese too, even though they (as a nation) tried to invade my country & kill my Grandfather.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Let's hope Mr Z doesn't mind me barging in again. You indirectly speaking of one of the "N" words and the repeated discussions in US media reminds me of always wanting to know ... Errrm ... What exactly is it with English language countries and the over-use of "Nazi" (the other "N" word?)
Doesn't that also mean to put any of the war crimes and crimes against humans that have been committed into a very odd perspective?
(contd.)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Don't people get that additional point of industrialising unbelievable cruelty to fellow human beings? (If one compares it to other ... mass murder ... ethical cleansing ...? Even ones going on right now.)
Ridicule, comedy or documetary about Nazis is one thing, but using it in everyday language as belittling term? Somehow i fail to understand that.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Please read "ethical cleansing" as "ethnic cleansing". Sorry. Ouch ;)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
I don't see the use of 'Nazi' in everyday speech as belittling the acts of or suffering under the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. The first time I ever realised there could even be a confusion was talking to a German visitor (coincidentally one of the people appearing in the 'Walk to Switzerland' video years later) where I referred to particular landlords as a 'Total Nazis' and he asked 'Are they fascists?'
I think in other parts of the world, there is a clear distinction.
zebidee55 3 years ago
I guess we would have to agree to disagree then. Never comprehended why that word would so readily be used in this way.
Ah. Yes, i think i've seen that walk video before getting the account. GB= Großherzogtum Baden :)
I wish there would be less digital borders in the world, because i like the fact Swiss TV almost always shows things with the option of original language sound track. (Learning by watching bad Hollywood movies.)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
But getting completely off topic. Maybe :) It's your video so one could talk about the NASA mars lander (Phoenix) finding little green men on mars. :)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
monoCluttermatt: The beauty of discussion is that we are not required to agree - in fact it works better if we don't. Thankyou for putting your point of view forward beyond a quick "nice video".
Ah yes - after struggling to find an English language cinema in France I very much appreciate the original language option!
As you can see from the discussion below with my friend ThreeofThree on the topic of ramen, I don't have particularly tight 'rules' on my video comment threads!
zebidee55 3 years ago
Thanks for posting this, Michael. An interesting topic to bring into discussion. I can see both benefit and detriment to their being located in so many different places, such as in front of homes, and also the fact that they are placed in the street. This latter aspect alone I can see could be a difficult issue, for this location still forces the names of those victims to be trod upon which in and of itself creates a conditiion of continued guilt for residents of the towns. It would seem to...
harleynanda 3 years ago
(cont'd) ...me that if their location were either centralized, or at least placed upon the walls at eye level, then rememberance and respect might be paid by one's own volition and thus more respectful. (I said above "placed in the street". I meant in the walkways.) Although being in the walkways forces personal contact, and thus by intent a forced attention, I think it also is at least by implication a furthering of disrespect of those victims; a continuation of the disrespect fostered by...
harleynanda 3 years ago
(cont'd_2)...the Nazi regime. This, in effect, victimizes the townspeople to some extent by forcing upon them a residual legacy of that regime, and thus a forced guilt. I'm sure a conversation with those residents would yield much discussion, but my initial reaction is that their being located in the walkways is rather inappropriate for the above mentioned reasons.
harleynanda 3 years ago
Yes, I included the cigarette butt in one of the still photos to illustrate the point that they are placed in the real world (the town is actually very clean though).
I think I prefer this to a central memorial because it makes it very personal. _This_ person lived in _this_ house. It changes it from some abstract concept into a very one-on-one thing.
I suspect if they're in the (town's) street it's harder for people to stop them than if they were trying to attach them to private property.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Sorry to barge in here for a second. Do i get you (US Michael :) right that you really think this could be an uninterrupted continuation of crimes against humans by the Nazi regime?
I doubt very much that these Stolpersteine would have had any noticable impact on national discussion about the subject of Aufarbeitung, if they would not be exactly put where they are.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Sorry for using this word "Aufarbeitung", i don't think there is a 1:1 translation into English. ~~ Re-visiting of a kind what happened back then.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
For harleynanda - "Aufarbeitung" as I understand it in this context means "rehabilitation" and is related to the term "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" which is "coming to terms with the past" - both crucial concepts in the reconciliation of the current German population with the acts of the past.
You can cut & paste Vergangenheitsbewältigung into Wikipedia for a synopsis of the concept.
A native German speaker may be able to clarify any translation or implication errors I have made.
zebidee55 3 years ago
"Aufarbeitung" to me means exactly what is going on with this Stoplersteine project. Finding out what happened to whom and at last/least doing anything at all about it. Not letting paper records get even more rotten than they already are. Etc ... ("Arbeit" = work)
"Bewältigung" is kind of the look back at a mountain that has already been finished or is near to being finished. And more like the "rug swiping". Something like that.
(very close to the opposite of the meaning of "überwältigt" (cntd)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
"überwältigt" = overwhelmed, overpowered)
Maybe i'm completely wrong in my freaky personal definitions of concepts and words :)
"reconciliation" reminds me of the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" of South Africa. I don't question the validity of such an organisation but it is kind of freaky that still too many have to die there because of skin color. Just now the black / white "roles" are reversed.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
monoCluttermatt: Regarding your original question, I think perhaps you are interpreting my statement a bit severly. What I was saying was that by putting these plaques in the walkways, the names of these people are then underfoot and are trod upon. I don't think there was any ill conceived intent to this, as a walkway is a public commons, but that in so doing it subliminally suggests that those victims are still underfoot and not raised to an appropriate place of respect. I think it would ...
harleynanda 3 years ago
(cont'd)...have been better if these victims names were placed on the walls of the appropriate buildings and elevated to eye level where equal attention is paid, but in a more respectful position. By forcing the townspeople to trod upon the names of these victims, the implied suggestion to the townsperson pedestrian is that they are having to assume the same 'posture' of guilt, for they are forced to trod upon those victims in perpetuity. It is a therefor a subliminal psychological effect.
harleynanda 3 years ago
(cont'd_2)...In essence, to stand upon the name of a victim is akin to standing upon a grave, which is a disrespectful gesture. My point is that by placing these shrines underfoot, it is a continuation of subliminal disrespect by way of gesture. I don't believe this was done intentionally, but that the subliminal impact was overlooked when the design concept was originated.
harleynanda 3 years ago
harleynanda: This is exactly one of the points of contention of the project. You hit the nail on the head. When I was taking the still shots of the plaques, I made sure the cigarette butt was in frame to highlight this aspect of it.
zebidee55 3 years ago
@harleynanda
I do get your point and don't. This was the main objection to the project at the beginning by the Central Council of Jews in Germany (Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland). And why few city governments have decided not to allow these Stolpersteine at their property. I'm not sure what CCoJiG's stand on it is right now, but i think if there still were any strong feelings against it i would have read about it.
I guess i do see more of the pragmatic symbolism, someone was dragged out of
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
their home RIGHT HERE at this pavement. I really think this is the more prevalent point. Plonk, right here. Not a central memorial (plonk, some stones at the central memorial in Berlin, done), not a plaque, but right here. Fabric of this street.
And it is a dynamic, organic process, that still goes on as more of these Stolpersteine are put in.
I guess you would have to ask Mr Deming, as i take many of his prior (art) installations were most certainly intended to p*** people off at first,
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
to initiate some thought process. Call it controversial if you will.
Back from poking around The Internets [tm], found the thoughts of the vice president of the CCoJiG on the subject, it just happens to be the very view i'm expressing. He also mentions the Hollywood Walk of Fame. A memorial that you can walk on.
(Michael has put the link into the side panel because it does not go through spam filtering. Thanks!)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
monoCluttermatt: These words have subtlety and nuance which go beyond their dictionary definitions, so I feel you are justified in having a personal perspective on them.
The black/white discrimination reversal was something I experienced on a previous trip to Mozambique. It was a real eye-opener, and something everyone should go through, if only for a moment.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Great and interessting vlog - i also did not hear about the Stolpersteine yet.
My comment regarding the "don't want to be remembered"-thing. I don't think that there is any 'reasoable' person who wants this all to be forgotten and we germans know about our guilt. The problem is, that times have changed and we have changed - because of WWII no german is able to say "i am proud to be german" without a bitter taste in his mouth.
[...continued...]
PatrickTheTimon 3 years ago
So i guess many people just don't want, that we are reduced to what happend then.
What happened during WWII is present everywhere - in TV (just watch phoenix or channels like that), in school (each year in almost each subject), and in existing memorials.
So I guess this is the reason why there are people who say "we just don't want more of it - we build memorials to show the world we have changed, but all this does is to keep the opionion that we are nazis and have to atone"
PatrickTheTimon 3 years ago
sorry... all hard to explain in another language without saying something totally wrong.
PatrickTheTimon 3 years ago
Your explanation worked just fine.
I agree - the part where German national pride is misinterpreted is a bad thing. You guys have a great country and SHOULD be proud of it.
Everyone knows the history (or at least parts of it) but there comes a time when the national identity should be rebuilt, along with the buildings.
The thing I like about the Stolpersteine is that they are small and you almost have to go looking for them, but they are a true memorial because you think of the people.
zebidee55 3 years ago
That's quite a whooping big can of history right up to present you've opened up there ...
No matter what one writes in this setting (YT, comments, 500 char nonsense ...) it will most certainly come across as either too flippant or "too political"?
Well, here goes nothing.
(I'll mark the end with EOMPC, end of multiple post comment.)
History is alway something that can be told trough many different accounts. Or views. Or pink glasses. You can ask many eye-witnesses about the same instance,
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
everyone will see things at least a little bit different. (Flippant poke: take 888 for example :)
But there usually is something that will stand out and stick with generations to come. This dark chapter of German history is part of German history, and will forever stay a part of German history, no matter how many revisionists come along and try to change it.
With that in mind, there are people here who honestly think it's a good idea to resurrect the "3rd Reich". Or something like it.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
This threat to the constitution and to society isn't just something theoretical & hypothetical, but very real.
People are singled out because of their beleifs or lifestyle or disability or skin. And killed. Just like that. That's supposed to be a good thing? In what world is that a good thing? Think Khmer Rouge and picking out people just by wearing eye-glasses. (Flippant: boy, YT would be soooo deserted ... contact lenses count tooo ...? :)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
(IMHO Misconception: "3rd Reich s'all 'bout The Jews [tm]!" Well, no it isn't. It's about people and dehumanizing and humiliating them up to killing them because of their beleifs or lifestyle or disability or skin.)
So if these Stolpersteine are doing even the smallest thing to remember people who lived in a house they are placed in front of, in my mind there really isn't any discussion necessary whether or not these should be there. Not the least bit. If it helps researching what happend to
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
some of the millions of people, if it helps with some kind of Aufarbeitung (the "Bewältigung" in Vergangenheitsbewältigung would sound too strange here), why would anybody object to it?
Humans that were branded and dehumanized with numbers are remembered as human life stories and names on Stolpersteine ... (A name getting there always means that someone had to research the human behind it.)
This is about the humans, not foremost about guilt, not about pointing at anyone. That point of the
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Stolpersteine might be easy to overlook. A lot of people apparently just did not get this in the beginning.
I take it as fact that this Aufarbeitung is JUST NOW (!) beginning to happen AT ALL. (I usually hate when politicians flap their mouth needlessly, but one could google Mr Rau or Mrs Merkel and Knesset. Hilarity ensues ...? "Mit der Reichsbahn in den Tod" should also be "fun". Or "Wehret den Anfängen" as Cicero quote. That's one odd way to learn German ... Errrh ...? You asked for it ...?)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
My guess would be that swiping under the rug motion started right whith the denazification.
What you might also not immediately know, this whole subject is taught in school here. Some of the kids might feel too much so. (Penny dropping here. So that's where these childish "Opfer" comments at Mr Pockhuhn's come from ...?? One gigantic pile of poo that would be ...? This scares me.)
Great to learn that the Stolpersteine have spread to more of the formerly occupied countries.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
That i wasn't aware of. Thank you for the video!
And now for something completely different ...
Oh, as tiny suggestion, was that the original question ??! if you're searching for the few visible signs of WW2 and aftermath that do exist at all (don't mention the war ... don't mention the war ... do you know Fawlty Towers? S1 Ep6 :) you could start with exactly that. Signs. Street signs or street names. Maybe names of schools. Mileage may vary considerably depending on town/city.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
And somewhat frequently there are evacuations, because a WW2 bomb that did not go off at the time has been uncovered by digging at building sites. That's also a constant.
And now (whenever anyone crazy enough reads these spelling mistakes of mine) please get back to watching kittens waving at you ...?
-EOMPC-
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
Thanks for the well thought through response. I think you still haven't broken my own panel count record though. ;D
I think the issues you talk about, the memorials, the reconciliation, the learning of history and the prevention or a recurrance are exactly what these things are all about. I guess it's all there in the name - 'Stumbling Blocks'. These are the issues we all must climb over to proceed. They transcend the simple Denkmal memorials.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Errm. You do take this with the appropriate amount of (ir)reverence. Could have told us it is some kind of competition :)
(This kind of was the edited down version.)
I think the 10 minute break is one of the reasons you won't see much of this ghost in the future youtubian machine. That and i can't "really" contribute anything to a video site without a cam. Nor am i particularly keen on appearing on cam. As soon as the US TV shows start again in a while, mind numbing also shall commence again.
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
YT is interesting. Kind of. You can be brutally honest, and nobody will take a single sillable of it for fact, because there is just so much great acting going on :)
monoCluttermatt 3 years ago
I prefer to give YT the benefit of the doubt. I've only seen one incidence of manufactured drama, and I unsubbed and never looked back. Simple. I just moved on.
It's hard within the constraints of the system to get everything across that needs to be said. Hopefully I raise issues that could be the subject of hours of debate. The fact that I raise them in this forum is a tradeoff between the size of the outgoing message vs the content of the incoming.
Width vs depth if you will.
zebidee55 3 years ago
i rode my bike through an old barracks/fort today. it looks like time has stood still...scary and amazing.
owlphanumeric 3 years ago
It's strange I guess for both of us coming from countries with short histories & being dumped in ones with long ones. I wish I was able to be there with you for your discovery adventures. I think we have and are going through the same things.
You rode your bike?! Yay you! :D
zebidee55 3 years ago
Thank you very much for filming this, Michael =)
I can understand the diversity of opinions on the issue of Stolpersteine, but for me they are a relatively subtle but ever-present memorial to those who were killed. I would like to remember them and be reminded of it all, even if it is painful. And as Muserine said, they can be reminders of the lives of those people, not just their deaths.
TheRavenOfPoe 3 years ago
In a documentary I once saw, a man was tracing his ancestry back and one of these Stolperstein was the closest he ever got to his great grandparents. There are no graves for them that he can visit because they were killed in prison camps and presumably dumped in mass graves. And so those Stolpersteine meant all the world to him - finally he felt like he had somewhere he could pay his last respects. I think that is the most important function these plaques will serve in years to come
TheRavenOfPoe 3 years ago
Good point Jen, I'd like to think of them as reminders as well that we shouldn't make the same mistakes over again.. The Holocaust was a horrible moment of history for the world, These are reminders that people were taken from their homes and enslaved and murdered because of a religion.. I think they serve a bigger purpose as a reminder, not to pain people about the past.. Kind of a memorial of sorts..
blueastcoast 3 years ago
OK, I'm staggered that you knew what these were, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your depth of knowledge anymore. That's a very cool story.
From my personal point of view, I see them as a good thing. They are very poingnant, and as my GF says, there is no getting around the fact that this is a part of history that will never stop being interesting. As usual, I can also see it from the point of view of the locals who are sick of having to live with reminders. Hence the video I guess.
zebidee55 3 years ago
I think you and I could talk endlessly on this topic as it is very much suited to our mentalities. I'm sure we will at some point too. It was interesting for me to get a local of roughly my own age, start drinking heavily and then bring up the topic. There is a depth of feeling there that is logical but not exactly expected. The problem is, like I said, that if you speak out against them, you are seen as anti-semitic, where all you want is a normal life. No aspect of the issue is fair.
zebidee55 3 years ago
That's incredible. I've never heard of the plaques before. That would would be very controversial. I don't know how I'd feel walking over one everyday to get home. Then again, it is a really beautiful idea to have the reminder.
ClumsyBumsy 3 years ago
Yes, I'm definitely in two minds about them Shauna. The good thing is that they're easy to tune out, the way you don't notice manhole covers or whatever, but they are right outside people's houses, so if you live there, it'd be hard to miss them, especially if you hated them. In one case, a compromise was reached and they were set at the edge of the footpath, not directly in front of the house. Oh, and they can devalue property too, which annoys people.
zebidee55 3 years ago
I like the project. And I see it in a slightly different light. It's not only a reminder of guilt, because to be honest, we don't really need that. It's everywhere anyways.
Jewish culture was a big part of german lifestyle before Hitler. But since it has been almost completely erased, it's hard to imagine how it was for today's people. There are a lot of Stolpersteine around where I live and I always read them and try to imagine the people behind the names. Not their deaths, but their lifes.
muserine 3 years ago
And I'm really bad at explaining that, sorry.
I think it's a way of showing that the jewish people really lived all across the country back then and are not only the victims of a terrible crime documented in history books etc.
muserine 3 years ago
It's interesting to try & imagine what Germany would be like with such a big Jewish influence as it used to have. Today we see the same issues with (for example) Turkish immigration in Germany where it brings diversity, but also brings tensions.
Australia has in many ways embraced its immigrant population, but only after a while. Always the latest wave of immigrants are seen as a problem. After a generation or so, they seem to be accepted, but then the tension moves on to the next group.
zebidee55 3 years ago
It's that sense of guilt that I was trying to get at in the second half of the story. I'm not sure where the Germans think it's coming from, but it's certainly not anyone I know. I guess it's hard for older generations to separate the history from the current people (and they've earned their opinions through experience) but for us now, there is very little connection with the past.
zebidee55 3 years ago
I think it is a shame that "the current people" have "very little connection with the past", as those who do not know history are destined to repeat it. That War (WWII) was very much part of my childhood. I had an uncle who was commanding general of the Berlin airlift after serving as Allied Commander, Indochina and commanding the invasion of what is now Vietnam. The factors that figured into WWII and the Cold War, made current by recent events in Georgia, are deeply embedded in my psyche.
anon2U224 3 years ago
Sorry David - I should have been more clear. By "the current people" have "very little connection with the past" I mean the _actual_ people. The Germans are all actuely, and painfully aware of their country's history, and they have taken huge steps to prevent these things happening again.
My Mum's family in were bombed by the Germans & my Grandfather fought in the Middle East & the Pacific, but now these people are my friends & the country is my second home. I cover this in a coming video.
zebidee55 3 years ago
I look forward to watching that.
anon2U224 3 years ago
Wow, they are very easy to miss, at least by me. I would have assumed they had something to do with the sewer system. I would get sad if I had something like that on the entrance to my home =(
Btw, I've missed you T-T
ZachrielCL 3 years ago
Yeah, they look a lot like survey markers or any of the other things that are in the pavement until you get up close and read them. Also, being in German, it's easy for an outsider to miss them. I think having to look at them every day is what the locals object to, which is part of the point of the video - it's not as simple an idea as it sounds.
Aww - I've missed you too! I'm back now though.
zebidee55 3 years ago
There was a similar project on campus here at cal poly: red hand prints painted on the ground at sites of sexual assaults. The administration decided to remove them from around the dorms.
"some parents wanted their students relocated because of them.
'The focus became there's something bad with this place, What was lost was that the badness is not with the place but with the people.'"
jp3d2k 3 years ago
Oh yeah, I can totally see how that would freak people out! I think there was one State in the US that put up white crosses at fatal accident sites to warn speeding motorists. It'd be hard to see the red hands as anything other than a warning. I mean would you be happy moving your daughter into a dorm with 20 red hands outside it?
zebidee55 3 years ago
The white crosses are usually put up by the family or friends of the deceased, not by the States. You will find these throughout the southeast and also in Mexico, and I suspect south of Mexico as well.
anon2U224 3 years ago
Yes - I understood the crosses to be in Montana, but when I was checking facts for my comment I found that most States either don't allow them or have a time limit on how long they can be there. There has been controversy with them in Australia as well.
zebidee55 3 years ago
My knowledge is limited to my own observations while driving. Unlike you I never researched the topic. It is my impression that the practice is a component of certain sub-cultures. My sub-culture does not do this sort of thing.
anon2U224 3 years ago
LOL! I'd hate to pass off my 30 seconds on Wikipedia as 'research', more as just making sure I wasn't making any wild errors (like the first version of this Stolpersteine video which was so factually inaccurate I had to refilm it.)
I agree with your take on the crosses. I don't think it's something I would do, and I find them ever so slightly disconcerting.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
This is very thought-provoking. I need to think my way through the topic before offering any comments. I think half-baked ideas are not appropriate on such a serious topic.
anon2U224 3 years ago
No problem David. Even though I specialise in half-baked comments, I can see why you would want to avoid them. Feel free to come back anytime and let me know your thoughts.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Ahh, thank you so much Michael, that was very interesting and I had never heard of those until you told me about them.. I think that they should be there, as reminders of what went on, and it wasn't even like it was that long ago.. You can't forget the past, you should just learn from it.. Thank you again! Awesome video =]
blueastcoast 3 years ago
I'm glad you liked it Jordan. Yeah, on face value, it's a good thing, but I sympathise a little with the people who have to live with them every day, long after the artist has left, especially when there is a lot of other pressure about the war like I discussed. The problem is that in trying to get on with life, they skip what is for the rest of us a fascinating peice of history. A tricky dilemma.
zebidee55 3 years ago
Wow I didn't know about this Stolpersteine.
I should pay more attention next time I walk through the streets.
gembay 3 years ago
Ah, interesting! Considering you live in basically the next town over, I'd assume they'd have them there too. I'd be interested to know if you find any.
(I just checked the artist's site and it says there are some in Karlsruhe.)
Hey! I hadn't realised how close you live to Neustadt. OMG - Neighbours!
zebidee55 3 years ago
very very interesting! and i love the way of your vlogging.
ralfonzo83 3 years ago
Oh thanks for that. I'm never sure if it's a good thing or not. I think that by telling stories all the time, I don't let any of my own personality through, but I guess that's what Gatherings are for! ;D
zebidee55 3 years ago
Zibbeeeeeee!!! I would have a difficult time as historic as it is, to see those memories of something so ghastly. We just can't forget no matter how hard we try anyway. I agree, it is a constant reminder of feeling guilty of something the younger people had absolutely nothing to do with. That's not fair at all. It's impossible to forget. I see also the other side.. families not wanting their loved ones to be forgotten. Great video! You are an Oh Naturel. The scenery is gorgeous = D
Pippilly 3 years ago
Ah yes, the town is pretty cute. It's totally old world German.
Yeah, I agree. I can see both sides of the argument (as usual). I think that the aim here is to provide a memorial without being too in your face about it. They're very easy to miss if you're not looking for them.
Oh and thankyou! :D
zebidee55 3 years ago
You're welcome! Did I say the scenery was gorgeous ; )
Pippilly 3 years ago
Hee hee! Yep!
zebidee55 3 years ago
I've seen those around in germany too.
EddyBergman 3 years ago
They're actually in a few other occupied or Axis countries too. According to the Wiki article, there's some in Borne in The Netherlands.
Phew - this finally finished uploading! Now I can go to bed...
zebidee55 3 years ago
OMG yes, it's six o clock down under :)
EddyBergman 3 years ago
Not quite. It's 4:20 AM, but I'm trying to fix my jetlag, so late night sessions on the Tubes don't help very much!
zebidee55 3 years ago
Well get to bed then and stop replying to my comments ;)
EddyBergman 3 years ago
LOL! Done.
zebidee55 3 years ago