How much money does Finkelstein get from his DVD? He denounces individuals who "make money off the Holocaust", even though most Holocaust survivors in Israel live in poverty & eat in soup kitchens), yet Finkelstein has no problem profiting from it.How much money has he made by exploiting that he parents were allegedly survivors? His whole career, as a failed academician & provocateur, is based off exploiting the Holocaust, as if his parent's plight makes him a spokesman.
@boliussa yes the Arab attempt started when Zionists started stealing lands and force political dominance on Muslims and Arabs. These Zionists were a minority and migrated from their original land Eastern Europe.
@aoeaoae yes the jews at anceint history who a lot of them converted, and some were living out side arbia and Sham(palstine+syria and jordan, lebanon..etc),, those people are not simitic and are not native of any arab land, even if they were native they left the land and they have no right for it.
I am an Armenian born man & for Mr. Israel to defend the Israeli policy & speak of Pius remembrance of the Holocaust, when they themselves don't even recognize the first documented holocaust of the million and a half Armenians. This is very disturbing to me. Just answer the fucking question of if you recognize that the memory is turning into a God damn monopoly. The reason you won't answer the question is you are using the same tactic. How Pathetic!!
haha koreans made up their own holocaust story out of thin air and based on it they have extorted money, territory and political concession from Japan. worse than Jews. True crooks.
No it's what have Arabs done and what are Arabs DOING and trying to do to Jews. Arabs only lost their homes when they attacked Jews in 1948. Stop going on about the Holocaust it has nothing to do with it. Jews were immigrating in large waves since 1880. So stop talking rubbish,do you think Jews living in Hebron for 2000+ years did so because of Hitler?Do you think Jews immigrated in 1880 because of Hitler in 1945? How about Jews today,do you think Jews today move because of Hitler?
@boliussa The majority in Palestine,has been Arabic since the 7th century A.D.
the Zionist,s, from the start, wanted a complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab,s Land bought by the JNF could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs
The Arab,s opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying as it posed a real danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine.The Zionist project won only with the collusion and military backing of the British/west.
That land was only called Palestine "all that time" in the minds of the west, they took the name from the Romans. It was reintroduced by Britain in 1920. "Palestinians" never ruled that land, and there were no "Palestinians" during the Ottoman Empire. The Arab leaders including historian Phillip Hitti rejected any notion of a Palestine or Palestinian people. It was sparsely populated even in the 1800s. And if you want to talk of a historic palestine, it included "Jordan".
For all the time Jews came in waves since 1880s joining their fellow Jews and the arabs, no arab lost his home until they attacked the jewish state to be in 1948. There were no attempts to dispossess the Arabs, it was an Arab attempt to dispossess the Jews in Israel, and not only that. There were more Jewish refugees that left the middle east, leaving property behind, than Arab refugees from Israel the war the Arabs started.
@Shum3r wrong, Jews do not kill no kids, and yes, many muslims were in SS, and the muslim Arabs were pro-Nazi, Nasser was pro-Nazi, and in Iraq the pro-Nazi arabs even did a revolution, though short lived. And the accursed mufti Hajj-Amin may his memory and seed be expunged, was major pro-Nazi supporter of Hitler war-criminal. The whole 20th century Arab Nationalism was/is pro-Nazi, Nazi-affiliated and Nazi-spawned. Their Jew-hatred GREATER (akbar) than that of the German Nazis if that's possibl
In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is our savior and our hope!
Peter Lavelle may be the single most openly biased moderator I have seen on any political debate format show in the past 10 years, and that's saying something.
MR finkelstein i have been sayng the same thing years for the past 20 years and people have brand me as ani samite i would like to thankyou for your book and your guts for voicing it. thankyou
it seams to me that the israilis are always tryng to chenge the topic to oh hitler killed us to hide the fact that they are worng in the way they have been acting for 61 years
It's you that is also and perhaps even more, obsessed with the Holocaust, putting shows on denying it, and a program here on holocaust memorial day, instead of ignoring it and getting on with your life, since you're not mourning it, and pro arabs on this program are not mourning it. And you / arab supporters / arabs base palestinian nakba day on it and cry and cry and try to get as much sympathy as possible as if they are the most suffering people in the world.
@boliussa what happend 61 years ago was a sad chapter in our history there is no denying the fact that it happend . i did not see it , but my grandmother toled me storys about it and i tryed to understand why it happend and the only answer i could come up with was that people in that part of the world simply went mad to be able to commit such acts against theire felow cuntryman and woman.
are you a person that equates the holocaust to the war of 1948? and what are you talking about - the holocaust, or 1948? 61 years ago is 1951 so work on your maths, it's difficult to see what you are talking about. Finkelstein says a lot of things, including that he supports Hezbollah. The few things he says here that are right, Israel Charny agrees with but without the rhetoric. But it's a silly game Finkelstein is playing and if Israel played it, Finkelstein would lose.
@boliussa and also there is no deniyng the fact that it effected the jewish people a grate deal but instade of learnig from it israil for the past 61 years is been doing the same thing to palestin people and been using the memory of holocoust to justify it its sham israil is a ceriminal and must be judjed
@boliussa and also there is no deniyng the fact that it effected the jewish people a grate deal but instade of learnig from it israil for the past 61 years is been doing the same thing to palestin people and been using the memory of holocoust to justify it its sham israil is a ceriminal and must be judjed
i used to be pro-palestinian....but when i see how much anti-semitism against israel and jews in general i;ve changed my views....finkelstein is an idiot
Merr blegh who gives a shit no one holds memorials for millions of dead africans from starvations and genocides... dont talk to me about rememberance.
@MrLamalo1 Not so. Watch anything this man does. Remember that in order to even establish a dialogue or a case for a viewpoint that is not conducive to the deluge of propaganda, it is essential to smash through the lies.
I want to add Peter Lavelle is completely wrong that US foreign policy is done largely on behalf of Israel. Thats a bit simplistic, and idiotic coming from someone of the former Soviet Union. The point im trying to make, is US foreign policy is not due to largely Israeli interests, though it plays a part. We have a new cold war, the "war on terror" thats about protect US citizens, theirs our energy intrests, and yes occasionally when pushed by the American people may act out of good intentions.
@spinlover1 it's much worse than that. The secret cabals that set policy in Washington are actively anti-Israel. Look no further down than Hamilton/Baker commission and the falsified NIE-2007 which let mullahs off the hook with their nukes. Why? To get US clean and quiet exit from Iraq. Muqtada Sadr went into Iran exile all by himself in 2007? More like clear-cut evidence of US/Iran SECRET DEAL, betraying Israel as by-product. THEY COULD CARE LESS.
God I never thought I could agree with someone "minimizing" the holocaust. But he's right that when we, and Im talking as a Jew, only see the world through the holocaust prism, bad shit will happen. The sheer horribleness of the holocaust has led some people (though not all) to see anyone who's against the actions of the Jewish state, as an anti-Semitic Nazi capable of gruesome deeds. I never realized this could be a factor, in some people (not me) in their dehumanization of the Palestinian
@MrLamalo1 That's so true. Same goes for all the victim hood in the Balkans. By the way I am a Jew and felt that my identity was wrapped up with the holocaust. But Ive learned to put things into perspective, if your prism in life is one of victimhood, well only bad stuff will happen. think about the ills my country, US, caused after 9/11 because "we were victims of terrorism" and had to stop terrorism at all cost.
Whether he is of Jewish faith or not, appears to be far less relevant to him than are his guiding Moral Values and Ethical Principles.
A true 'Rebel' is one who challenges Injustice, regardless. His profound sense of Humanity was undoubtedly nurtured early in life by his mother and what she came away with from her own persecution under the Nazis.
@CatherineDeLancret yeah what a huge fucking racket! the germans are a bunch of spineless pussies at the moment..too afraid of world jewry..besides the holocau$t of 6miljewsnever happened and many know this.
@MrLamalo1 It is hard to find something positive in that conflict. Also, I haven´t focused on hate. I don´t hate the Israelis. I have pointed out why the Palestinians can´t build an economy. Besides I have to disagree with you in your last statement. Israel has an interest to keep in "war" with the Palestinians. On the one hand to keep their people in fear, which helps controlling them. And on the other hand to be able to build new settlements on land that has been "left" by Palestinians.
@MrLamalo1 How can somebody build up something like an economy, whenthere is no possibility to import anything? When the Israelis start attacks that destroy their productive structures that are left after 60 years of imprisonment?
@MrLamalo1 Strange that your attention isn't drawn to the factual and substantive arguments of Finkelstein vs the insubstantial and in one instance simply false arguments of Charny.
In Jasenovac almost 1 million serbs were killed by Croat Ustasha as a ethinc cleanisng, also Roma and other people many of which were Slavs so how come Jews ae the only one who get to speak?
How come noone will talk about Erhard Milich or orpn cross awarded Horst Geitner.
There was a shitload of Jewish Nazi officers serving Hitler alot of them even recived a certificate of being pure ariyans even when they were Jewish and Hitler knew that.
Everyone who opossed Hitler and his ideas was killed and put in camps no matter if they were jewish or not, many Jews served Hitler and were awarded by iron crosses and put in high ranking places even when Hitler knew that they were Jewish.
My grandmother was in Jasenovac a Nazi camp in Yugoslavia where you had ethnic cleansing againts Ortodox Serbs yet you dont see any Serbs playing the Death Camp card like Israel does.
@1DarkMasK1 The Holocaust happened in one of the most enlightened countries so it's a scary anomaly in enlightened thinking. What are the Serbs doing to mourn themselves being killed and to keep the memory of the murdered alive? and what % of Serbs were killed? 60-75% of Jews of Europe killed, now jewish communities don't exist in most of those countries. All over Europe Jews were largely not allowed in, it's a lesson to Jews and to Europe.
Jews are an "ethnic" group not a nationality if you go by ethnicity then tell me how many Slavs have been executed and imprisioned during ww2 and during cold war?
What on earth is going through your head, do you think i'm trying to have some kind of competition with you, about who suffered more, you lunatic. I just asked you a question. I figured you might know about Slavs since you're talking about them a lot.
Can you quote me and criticise that if you want, though all I was doing was I mention some facts and ask a question to you thinking(probably wrongly) that you knew about serbs, but don't start spouting all this nonsense about what you think about other Jews.
I didn't ask you if Serbs did anything. I am not disputing that they've suffered terribly. I just asked you what percentage were killed. They are welcome to memorialize it and mourn it. And the people you no doubt would support, the "Palestinians" while they complain about evil Jews "using" the holocaust, they declare their military loss and failure to annihilate Israel, as "Nakba day" and memorialise it every year..
1.) Even if only 1 Serb was killed its sad the same goes for any Jew.
You are basicly saying Jews deserve more credit because they were more killed guess what they dont higher precentage doesnt mean shit 1% of 100 mil is way more then 2% of 2000.
During holocaust 11 mil or more Jews were killed now if you count Slavic people in general around 50 mil or more were killed.
2.) Palestinas have every right to be pissed about the Jews because Plaestinia is not Jewish land hell neither is Israel.
All your historical "facts" about your land are based on 3000 year old fairy tell book that talks about giants and burning bush real fucking credible.
3.) You can cry all day long about how Jews are great yet you cant even decide who is a jew and who isnt. Some base it on religion others on a origins etc...
Palestinians while they moan about Jews claiming that Jews make out that they are the number one victims and play the victim card, nobody plays the victim card like the Palestinians. More Arabs killed arabs in 1975-1990 in Lebanon than Israel has killed in the entire 60 year middle east conflict, or 90 years+ even. Abbas has even claimed "we are the last people living under occupation" And as Associated Press pointed out in their fact check, they're not
They believe their problems are the root of all issues in the entire middle east and they spread that propaganda. They claim that Jews do it, but they're the masters of it. They obviously think it's a good thing to do. Jews want to not be singled out, e.g. they're not the worst people in the world. Palestinians want to be singled out as biggest victims! And Israel as the worst.
Supposing a Jew became a Nazi general. What percentage of Jews do you think were Nazi generals? Probably not that high a percentage. Maybe not many Nazi generals that were Jews.. But even if it was, it shows how fucked up and self hating jews are. Look at Henry Kissinger that didn't care if Jews were gassed and said Jews were self serving. Jews produce these jew bashing anti-semites of jewish origin. It could be said that somebody like Kissinger is self serving.
Your analogy is flawed Jew isnt the Same as European.
European belong to the same continent, Jews dont,
Jew is not treligious affiliation, it not a nationality, its not a race so no matter how many times you bring this European, white etc... crap it just doesnt bare any weight because its flawed analogy like right from the start.
This is my real question how do you go about saying who is jewish or not?
Where did I say Jew is the same as European. Obviously it isn't. Clearly you do not understand what I write. Zionism is just self determination for Jews, just like you allow it for other peoples. That Jews also known as Am Yisrael(the people of Israel) should be a free people in their land(Eretz Yisrael-the land of Israel). Am Yisrael(The Jews) are a people that all lived together in Eretz Yisrael(Israel). Their language and religion started there. Jews ruled there.
Provide me any real evidence about Jews ruling anywhere because all historical factual data states that Jews were mentioned thousands of years after the torah.
Before that or about the same time there is not a single thing mentioning the jews,
You claim Jews lost the land prove it what land did they have prove to me with historical data that doesnt relay on the same book that talks about golems and stuff like that.
Well, multiple pieces of evidence put together confirming each other.. Take this one , wikipedia article First_Jewish-Roman_War shows a picture of a Roman coin saying "Judea Capta" (Judea Captured). It was the Roman emperor Hadrian that renamed Judea to Palestine. And there is archaeological evidence of -some- of Israel's Kings. It's difficult to post a link here but a site called allaboutthejourney has a page that mentions a lot
Well that's a nice theory. So the Romans when they minted coins saying Judea Capta, (judea captured) that was all having a laugh was it? there was no Judea? And other nations mentioning Israelite kings and victories and defeats with them, that's fantasy too. Archaeology has a methodology, and they don't doubt the Hebrews were there. They find Ancient Hebrew inscribed on old stones there. As well as coins, and evidence of jewish revolts against the Romans
1.) I am not saying Jews didnt exist I am saying that they were not a tribe or having a kingdom like described in a fucking fairy tell book called torah.
All "evidence" you provided was thousands years later.
You have people that become fans of a book and believe it to be true and start to call themselves different.
For example in UK you have now Jedi as a real religion (from star wars)
The same thing was with the people they like torah and they became Jews.
What are you nuts.. The point is they are not Israelite sources. These are other nations talking about the Israelites. As far as when the Torah is dated, academics differ. But the Torah is the beginning of Ancient Israelite religion and what makes Israelites Israelites, so why should there be mention of Israelites before their religion? As far as I know, academics believe Israelites started as a group of Canaanites.
And in your theory, not based on evidence, Jews never existed in Israel, that goes against what all academics and archaeologists and historians know. And the only thing I said "as far as I know" to, was this " As far as I know, academics believe Israelites started as a group of Canaanites." You are welcome to reject what academics and archaeologists say.
and as to what you call a silly game that you play, the fact is that we are all from Africa..according to biologists. Does that mean there are no other nationalities? No. But we haven't all kept our african identities.. So Africa isn't particularly meaningful to the average european. His religion is not african, his language is not the language of his african ancestors ..and so on. His identity is lost and replaced with a new one.
Thats right we all came from Africa and different cultures emerged.
However what you were implaying is that Jewish culture existed like couple of thosuands years BC when thats a lie it didnt.
I even Asked you about evidence about King David and so on which is what a lot of jews are proud of it and you havent provide any and you know why because there is no proof.
Jewish culture do not predate Assyrians, Sumerians, Babylonians etc...
and no I didn't say or imply anything about "jewish culture" or Israel or Jews existing a couple of thousand years BC. But let's see how far back.. No religious Jew would say it existed before 1800BCE for example. And through archaeology we have the Merneptah Stele interpreted by most archaeologists and ancient historians to mention Israel, and it is at 1203-1213BCE I never said or implied that Jews existed a few thousand years BCE. Who does?
I am awere about Merneptah Stele but did you read in what context he was mentioning that?
Here:
"The stela does make clear that "Israel" at this stage refers to a people or tribal confederation, the Ancient Israelites, and not a kingdom or city state, since the determinative used is that for "foreign people", not that for "country".[9]"
he was saying Israel as a fucking tribe and not as a state or kingdom.
You lack reading comprehension skills..I gave you evidence of Israelite Kings. You brought up(in your obtuse way) , you brought up the question of how far back Israelites go .. That Stele only says what it says and that is evidence of Israelites existing as early as the Stele is dated. Rome captured Judea, and minted coins to boast of it.
Israel was always mentioned as a tribe and not a state or kingdom that belong to the jews.
Judea was just a name of a country so those coins only state that Judea was captured.
just because it was called Judea doesnt mean it belong to the Jews New York is an english word yet it doesnt belong to the British I mean jesus christ.
Besides Judea became Jewish only after revolt few hundred years before Romans capture it it was basicly a civil war. If you look further Judea was never Jewish like described by jews (kingdom of Judah).
I am not claiming there was or was not, or to what extent as described in the bible, there was a Kingdom of Judah , I don't see how it is relevant. All i'm saying is the Israelites were a people back then and had Kings. My views aren't based on more than that they don't require the bible to be true. And as I said, i'm an Atheist.
by that I mean, there are other facts, like Jews sharing more with each other genetically than with their neighbours, which refutes some other lies of jew haters, but ultimately, the jewish bond to that land going back thousands of years, is clear as day.It is the bond of Am Yisrael, to Eretz Yisrael - the people of Israel, to the land of Israel.
Actually Arab palestinians share a lot genetically with Jews in Europe and Jews from Arab lands, more interestingly, with Jews in Europe.. Got that from a study mentioned in this documentary watch?v=MOolCRSf74I about the jewish origins of "palestinians". It mentions professor ariella oppenheim hadassah medical school, intenational study with participation of prof marina fiereman and dr dvora filon. Prof Oppenheim said it in that documentary that their study found that.
So it's not about just location.. As I said earlier, the study mentioned in the 2010 NYtimes article "Studies Show Jews' Genetic Similarity" which says Jews from Europe and Jews from Arab lands have more in common with each other than with their neighbours.
of course, it does indicate that Jews were at one time living together, and became dispersed. But even after 2000 years of living apart, the Jews from europe and jews from arab lands have more in common with each other genetically, than with their neighbours. Despite looking physically more like neighbours than like each other! The genetic studies say what they say.
Furthermore, I see you spoke of thousands of years BC. Perhaps you got confused. I asked who said it and you had no reply. The Jewish bond to that land, of Am Yisrael to Eretz Yisrael, does go back thousands of years, but not thousands of years before 0 BCE. Certainly there (my computer is a little slow but i'll check) hebrew inscriptions from thousands of years ago. Like a 10th century BCE one was found in 2010.
Both religious jews and religious christians believe in the bible. it's not that they're lying, they just believe their holy book, and so even before Archaeology, they believed in the jewish presence in the land(they were right, ahead of academics) and they believe a whole book with many things that are probably false, including a God, which I think is false too. I am stronger on jewish rights to Israel and against palestinian propaganda, than many religious jews.
I've been telling you that the question of evidence for King David and King Solomon is irrelevant and illegitimate. Earlier you were trying to say that Israelites are a fiction, and that there were no Kings. I just gave evidence of Kings. As far as a King David is concerned, if there were no evidence at all it doesn't mean Israel had no Kings. I showed you evidence of Kings. Archaeology only digs up some things of the past, but it tells us a minimal set of things well.
1.) I never said that or I did but not the way you presented I was talking about various jewish Kingdoms that predated David or should I say before he united them.
You were giving me examples such as Judea which was done via revolt which means from the inside and not because it existed on its own for hundreds of years.
2.) Defualt position is no belief until proven true so if there is no evidence or minimal evidence for David your non belief is justified.
and the Israelites are a tribal people - with converts. No race is pure as I said, and Jews don't try to be, never have, Jews have accepted converts in every generation no matter how far back you go. Right from the start. There haven't been many generally speaking, particularly over the past 2000 years. But there have always been converts. And as a result, Jews still retain genetic similarity as a people despite their dispersion, despite looking different.
You probably know more about Ethnicity and race than I do.. but you ask an ignorant question "What possible can a blue eyed, blodne haired jews share with brown skinned jew share geneticly?" which shows you won't be good at seeing who is a race. So race is based on genetics, Ethnicity is based on language and culture.. OK. Jews are both then. Look up nytimes article "Studies Show Jews' Genetic Similarity" it mentions academic scientific studies on the genetics of jews worldwide.
And Arabs, as in those in Arabia probably do share a lot genetically, and perhaps most there haven't mixed much with those elsewhere in the middle east. Remember that those elsewhere in the middle east adopted the title Arab because of arab nationalism. and speaking arabic. The real arabs are still the Arabians. And before they came up with the idea of gaining political power with arab nationalism, they might've not considered other arabic speakers elsewhere are real arabs.
And for a long time Egypt emphatically didn't consider itself Arab. But now it very much does. Arabs in Saudi Arabia, would share a lot genetically. Do you think race is only skin deep? One question you ask suggests that you think genetics is only skin deep! But if you look at the facts, like the study I mentioned see the nytimes article, Jews are technically a race(not pure, but technically a race) if genetics makes a race.
well I think i'm as free as you are,and no more or less free than any other rational person,but looking at the wikipedia article"Race_(classification_of_humans)"it shows some define it as physical characteristics.but there's another definition as genetic.If you scroll down to Templeton(1998) the definition is about Genetic similarity.So not necessarily phenotype/physical similarity.So I suppose one could speak of a genetic race and a physical race..Jews as technically a genetic race
The Israelites Am Yisrael are remarkable for making their religion portable and for it keeping their Israelite identity alive for a 2000 year exile. Throughout the world, far away from their homeland Eretz Yisrael. Being powerless and persecuted for 2000 years, and finally returning once again and this time able to defend themselves. Jews from Yemen, Iraq, France , looking quite different now, but all one people together again speaking Hebrew. It's an amazing thing.
And while all you jew haters claimed Jews weren't a people.. jews were khazars etc.. with your weak hypothesis.. even though jews preceded khazars in europe. Now scientific studies show that Jews in Europe and Jews in Arab lands have more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Genetic studies disprove the nasty lies of Jew haters and show Jews all over the world are one people.
Obviously there are going to be peoples predating Am Yisrael(The People of Israel), good for them, it is remarkable how the Jews have survived, and have returned to be sovereign again in Eretz Yisrael(the land of Israel). Others in "historic palestine" already have a state in most of it 70% of it, called Jordan that was almost called the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine..
If you dont provide evidence for King David, Kingdom of Israel etc...
Dont fucking replay to my post or giving me evidence about Jewish kings like during Roman Empire.
You jEws claimed that your culture existed in the time of Babylonians, Assyirians hell even ancient Egyptians that you were slaves there yet again no evidence.
And no that evidence isnt irrelevant it is really relevant.
Because Iran should have a fucking Isrel and all other fucking middle east even Africa since Iranians are Persians and Persian Empire is a well established fact supported by numerous evidence predating anything Jewish.
Greece was an Imperialistic Empire that took a lot more than Greece(I assume it started from Greece). I am not in favour of such things at all. Sadly the MIddle east was taken over by the Arab-Islammic imperialistic empire which has been bad for many cultures and peoples there, fortunately the Kurds survived and continue to survive it.
You simply don't follow logic. I never gave any logic to draw the conclusion you drew about native americans taking over. No Arab lost his home until they attacked the state of israel to be, in 1948. And I see you react with hysteria over the genetic similarities.. indeed, Jews are one people, and Jews from Arab lands and Jews from Europe (even though looking different) , share more in common genetically with each other, than they do with their neighbours.
As to King David, there is evidence actually, but it's irrelevant because I showed there were Israelite Kings. and Israelites in Israel.. hebrew on stones there.. and other peoples mentioning them. We were a people sovereign there, - we had Kings, and that's the point. We had some autonomy under the Romans too. Am Yisrael even fought the Romans to gain control of Eretz Yisrael.
And your question is simply illegitimate and irrelevant. Why should there be israelites before the Torah? Maybe the Torah was what made the Israelites a people.
I asked you 100000 of times about Evidence about King David, Solomon, United kingdom of Israel or Kingdom of Judea as a Jewish state and not roman provinence.
There is some evidence of King David, but it is irrelevant, and the Israelites were there before the Romans. And had Kings, some left archaeological evidence. I am an Atheist. I do not believe "west palestine" is jewish land based on the bible. I believe it based on the strength of the jewish claim to that land compared to the "arab" claim.
cont. I believe it based on morality. I do not think the "palestinians" have a right to a 22nd arab state and 2nd palestinian state in the heart of the jewish homeland.
@boliussa don't waste your time with this guy, i read your conversation and the guy can't even spell let alone look up something. He probably didn't understand half of what you said by the way he answered you. btw i just wanted to tell you that i find that I've learned a lot from what you said. Thank you from the info.
my pleasure, and I know that others might learn too, so I knew it's not a waste of time. But also, sometimes people can be wrong and argue, but you don't see a mind change there and then but their mind might change in time after a while of contemplating the facts/points that have been presented to them.True so often people aren't honest and looking for true facts, but as you say, and i'm aware of, others that are more honest and open to looking at all the facts, can learn from them.
Besides even if everything you said is proven to be 100% correct and true thatd doesnt change the fact that this current Jews are not the ones that used to live.
Egyptians are no longer the ones from the past.
Under your fucked up logic only Native Americans are Americans :S
Well, the current Jews have retained their identity for 2000 years. And spread throughout te world, in Europe, and the Middle East (less so the middle east now since the Arabs caused them to flee since the state of israel), but Jews all over the world in Europe and from Arab lands, have more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Because they're one people.
and one people still speaking the same language and practicing the same religion(though religions evolve a bit granted), but jews all over the world have the same religious practices, even though living far apart for millenia.
the "Shishak Relief" mentions King Rehoboam in 925BC The Moabite Stone mentions Israelite victories of Israelite kings King Omri and King Ahab against Moab. The "Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser" describes the Assyrian victory over Israelite King Jehu. A declaration stating ""I killed Jehoram son of Ahab king of Israel and I killed Ahaziahu son of Jehoram king of the House of David."
All others ruling there since the Jews lost that land, until the Jews regained it, have been Empires.. Arab-Islammic, Christian. Just Empires. Not a sovereign nation ruling there.
And regarding the production of self hating Jews, bear in mind that Europeans have the problem too, of self hating Europeans, just not as bad as Jews have it. So you can blame Europeans are evil then because there are self hating Europeans that "tell the truth" about how evil white people are.
And last think they might be small % of Jews that use holocaust for own selfish reasons however here is the kicker that small % is in Israeli politics that small % of jews is in other powerful positions and other seem to be fine with it.
And besides obsessing about their Nakha.. Palestinians and Israel bashers obsess non stop about the Holocaust.. Arabs deny it.. and are leaders in Holocaust denial.. And while Finkelstein uses the Holocaust to bash Jews that make money out of it.. it's a tiny number that do it. I wish Jews had gone after such bad people themselves instead of such a self promoting israel basher claiming to do it or not even claiming to.
The Holocaust does not add up to the facts. Zionists have been screaming holocaust since the 1800's. Definition: Holocaust 1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.3.the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II
4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
( propaganda inflitration of english dictionaries) (just like the bible)
Finkelstein is an academic joke, Dershowitz destroyed him, he couldn't even get tenure in DePaul, he's a terrorist apologist and bedfellows with terrorists. All Abrahamic religions believe their respective dogma is "chosen" and the other damned you fool. Your nation, the US has killed more people than Israel has in 63 years, you've supported, armed, trained the worlds worst human rights abusers like Saudi to the tune of $60 billion. Worry about your stink myopic hypocrite!
@ByTheShortAndCurlies You sound like you have a problem with people who are obviously better than you. You said you are from Israel, didin't you. Israel is a cancer of the world. Your post is a shining example why. Have some class as your racist, apartheid country self implodes. You've made a big enough fool of yourself.
Norm the Fecal Stain. The shitheads just LUV him.
aoeaoae 3 days ago
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How much money does Finkelstein get from his DVD? He denounces individuals who "make money off the Holocaust", even though most Holocaust survivors in Israel live in poverty & eat in soup kitchens), yet Finkelstein has no problem profiting from it.How much money has he made by exploiting that he parents were allegedly survivors? His whole career, as a failed academician & provocateur, is based off exploiting the Holocaust, as if his parent's plight makes him a spokesman.
michaelfr613 3 days ago
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michaelfr613 3 days ago
i dislike black mail.
creditequityophshoa 1 week ago
@boliussa yes the Arab attempt started when Zionists started stealing lands and force political dominance on Muslims and Arabs. These Zionists were a minority and migrated from their original land Eastern Europe.
wishbagii 1 week ago
@wishbagii Jews are natives of JEWDEA. Arabs are natives of FAR AWAY ARABIA.
End of fucking story.
aoeaoae 3 days ago
@aoeaoae yes the jews at anceint history who a lot of them converted, and some were living out side arbia and Sham(palstine+syria and jordan, lebanon..etc),, those people are not simitic and are not native of any arab land, even if they were native they left the land and they have no right for it.
wishbagii 2 days ago
I am an Armenian born man & for Mr. Israel to defend the Israeli policy & speak of Pius remembrance of the Holocaust, when they themselves don't even recognize the first documented holocaust of the million and a half Armenians. This is very disturbing to me. Just answer the fucking question of if you recognize that the memory is turning into a God damn monopoly. The reason you won't answer the question is you are using the same tactic. How Pathetic!!
gregsedefian 1 week ago 2
haha koreans made up their own holocaust story out of thin air and based on it they have extorted money, territory and political concession from Japan. worse than Jews. True crooks.
2channIist 2 weeks ago
Would have been nice if Mr. Finkelstein could finish his sentence. Great show though
fshah1000 2 weeks ago
Charney is a pompous and doddery old fool.....
TheAvarusAnimus 3 weeks ago
Those holocaust victims are now killing Palestinians kids. What has Palestine done to jews? What have muslims done to jews? Does Hitler was muslim?
Shum3r 1 month ago
@Shum3r
No it's what have Arabs done and what are Arabs DOING and trying to do to Jews. Arabs only lost their homes when they attacked Jews in 1948. Stop going on about the Holocaust it has nothing to do with it. Jews were immigrating in large waves since 1880. So stop talking rubbish,do you think Jews living in Hebron for 2000+ years did so because of Hitler?Do you think Jews immigrated in 1880 because of Hitler in 1945? How about Jews today,do you think Jews today move because of Hitler?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa The majority in Palestine,has been Arabic since the 7th century A.D.
the Zionist,s, from the start, wanted a complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab,s Land bought by the JNF could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs
The Arab,s opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying as it posed a real danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine.The Zionist project won only with the collusion and military backing of the British/west.
machavelliable 1 week ago
@machavelliable
That land was only called Palestine "all that time" in the minds of the west, they took the name from the Romans. It was reintroduced by Britain in 1920. "Palestinians" never ruled that land, and there were no "Palestinians" during the Ottoman Empire. The Arab leaders including historian Phillip Hitti rejected any notion of a Palestine or Palestinian people. It was sparsely populated even in the 1800s. And if you want to talk of a historic palestine, it included "Jordan".
boliussa 1 week ago
@machavelliable
For all the time Jews came in waves since 1880s joining their fellow Jews and the arabs, no arab lost his home until they attacked the jewish state to be in 1948. There were no attempts to dispossess the Arabs, it was an Arab attempt to dispossess the Jews in Israel, and not only that. There were more Jewish refugees that left the middle east, leaving property behind, than Arab refugees from Israel the war the Arabs started.
boliussa 1 week ago
@machavelliable hey stupid, if the Arabs were majority since 7th century AD, what does it tell ya?
It's because they are FOREIGN INVADERS, they conquered the Land in the 7th century AD.
Philistines were long forgotten by the 5th century BCE, and they lived along the cost anyway.
JEWS are the natives of JEWDEA. Arabs are natives of far-away ARABIA. Capish?
aoeaoae 3 days ago
@Shum3r wrong, Jews do not kill no kids, and yes, many muslims were in SS, and the muslim Arabs were pro-Nazi, Nasser was pro-Nazi, and in Iraq the pro-Nazi arabs even did a revolution, though short lived. And the accursed mufti Hajj-Amin may his memory and seed be expunged, was major pro-Nazi supporter of Hitler war-criminal. The whole 20th century Arab Nationalism was/is pro-Nazi, Nazi-affiliated and Nazi-spawned. Their Jew-hatred GREATER (akbar) than that of the German Nazis if that's possibl
aoeaoae 3 days ago
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In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is our savior and our hope!
diptdipt 1 month ago
Peter Lavelle may be the single most openly biased moderator I have seen on any political debate format show in the past 10 years, and that's saying something.
Berdie 1 month ago
@Berdie Watch FOX news. It will blow your fucking mind.
normalkuriboh 3 weeks ago
holocaust is pathetic propaganda
rambo753 1 month ago
@rambo753 Shut the fuck up Nazi.
purim2012 1 month ago
MR finkelstein i have been sayng the same thing years for the past 20 years and people have brand me as ani samite i would like to thankyou for your book and your guts for voicing it. thankyou
najafgholid1 1 month ago
it seams to me that the israilis are always tryng to chenge the topic to oh hitler killed us to hide the fact that they are worng in the way they have been acting for 61 years
najafgholid1 1 month ago
@najafgholid1
It's you that is also and perhaps even more, obsessed with the Holocaust, putting shows on denying it, and a program here on holocaust memorial day, instead of ignoring it and getting on with your life, since you're not mourning it, and pro arabs on this program are not mourning it. And you / arab supporters / arabs base palestinian nakba day on it and cry and cry and try to get as much sympathy as possible as if they are the most suffering people in the world.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa what happend 61 years ago was a sad chapter in our history there is no denying the fact that it happend . i did not see it , but my grandmother toled me storys about it and i tryed to understand why it happend and the only answer i could come up with was that people in that part of the world simply went mad to be able to commit such acts against theire felow cuntryman and woman.
najafgholid1 1 month ago
@najafgholid1
are you a person that equates the holocaust to the war of 1948? and what are you talking about - the holocaust, or 1948? 61 years ago is 1951 so work on your maths, it's difficult to see what you are talking about. Finkelstein says a lot of things, including that he supports Hezbollah. The few things he says here that are right, Israel Charny agrees with but without the rhetoric. But it's a silly game Finkelstein is playing and if Israel played it, Finkelstein would lose.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa and also there is no deniyng the fact that it effected the jewish people a grate deal but instade of learnig from it israil for the past 61 years is been doing the same thing to palestin people and been using the memory of holocoust to justify it its sham israil is a ceriminal and must be judjed
najafgholid1 1 month ago
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@boliussa and also there is no deniyng the fact that it effected the jewish people a grate deal but instade of learnig from it israil for the past 61 years is been doing the same thing to palestin people and been using the memory of holocoust to justify it its sham israil is a ceriminal and must be judjed
najafgholid1 1 month ago
Hahahaha. Did he just completely make up a quote by Norman? Hilarious. Charny is the typical image of Israel in a nut shell.
ukonxix 1 month ago
The Soviets liberated nothing. " Liberated " LOL
alanbstard4 1 month ago
i used to be pro-palestinian....but when i see how much anti-semitism against israel and jews in general i;ve changed my views....finkelstein is an idiot
yugo91aesop 1 month ago
@yugo91aesop Finally some intellegence stands out in a sea of brainless idiots!! THANK YOU SIR!! IT'S ABOUT TIME!!
DrBakshandeh 4 weeks ago
Peter is an excellent moderator.
gregbye331 1 month ago
@gregbye331
Peter is not an excellent moderator. He is obviously biased in favor of Finkelstein and his point of view.
Grisostomo06 1 month ago
@Grisostomo06 How can you blame Peter when Charny doesn't say anything substantial. Of course he can't because he knows what he is hiding.
ukonxix 1 month ago
It felt like Finkelstein was talking to a wall.
unclepain10 1 month ago
hahaha its very funny see how Dr Finkelstein kicks the flaccid and wrinkled ass of that Grandpa xD
KevinVonKluger 1 month ago
Merr blegh who gives a shit no one holds memorials for millions of dead africans from starvations and genocides... dont talk to me about rememberance.
Gantzer1 1 month ago
@MrLamalo1 Not so. Watch anything this man does. Remember that in order to even establish a dialogue or a case for a viewpoint that is not conducive to the deluge of propaganda, it is essential to smash through the lies.
RockyMountainPrepper 1 month ago
shmata!
thebotten 1 month ago
Dr Fecal Stain. The shit heads LUV him.
aoeaoae 2 months ago
@aoeaoae EXACTLY!!
DrBakshandeh 4 weeks ago
I want to add Peter Lavelle is completely wrong that US foreign policy is done largely on behalf of Israel. Thats a bit simplistic, and idiotic coming from someone of the former Soviet Union. The point im trying to make, is US foreign policy is not due to largely Israeli interests, though it plays a part. We have a new cold war, the "war on terror" thats about protect US citizens, theirs our energy intrests, and yes occasionally when pushed by the American people may act out of good intentions.
spinlover1 2 months ago
@spinlover1 it's much worse than that. The secret cabals that set policy in Washington are actively anti-Israel. Look no further down than Hamilton/Baker commission and the falsified NIE-2007 which let mullahs off the hook with their nukes. Why? To get US clean and quiet exit from Iraq. Muqtada Sadr went into Iran exile all by himself in 2007? More like clear-cut evidence of US/Iran SECRET DEAL, betraying Israel as by-product. THEY COULD CARE LESS.
aoeaoae 2 months ago
@spinlover1 and the secret cabals are: CIA and State.
aoeaoae 2 months ago
God I never thought I could agree with someone "minimizing" the holocaust. But he's right that when we, and Im talking as a Jew, only see the world through the holocaust prism, bad shit will happen. The sheer horribleness of the holocaust has led some people (though not all) to see anyone who's against the actions of the Jewish state, as an anti-Semitic Nazi capable of gruesome deeds. I never realized this could be a factor, in some people (not me) in their dehumanization of the Palestinian
spinlover1 2 months ago
@spinlover1 that's some shit you're talking man, straight from the shitmaster Fecal Stain playbook. Your parents are ashamed of you.
aoeaoae 3 days ago
@MrLamalo1 That's so true. Same goes for all the victim hood in the Balkans. By the way I am a Jew and felt that my identity was wrapped up with the holocaust. But Ive learned to put things into perspective, if your prism in life is one of victimhood, well only bad stuff will happen. think about the ills my country, US, caused after 9/11 because "we were victims of terrorism" and had to stop terrorism at all cost.
spinlover1 2 months ago
@spinlover1 u r a straight up liar thats who u r. or an extreme case of brainfuck.
aoeaoae 3 days ago
@aoeaoae well articulated point. We could have used you on our college debate team.
spinlover1 2 days ago
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Regarding Dr. Finkelstein;
Whether he is of Jewish faith or not, appears to be far less relevant to him than are his guiding Moral Values and Ethical Principles.
A true 'Rebel' is one who challenges Injustice, regardless. His profound sense of Humanity was undoubtedly nurtured early in life by his mother and what she came away with from her own persecution under the Nazis.
bassammaelborno 2 months ago
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Regarding Dr. Finkelstein;
What a remarkably well informed scholar.
Resolve such as this unequivocally eminates from a very deep seated personal sense of Humanity.
He unwaveringly challenges with a banner of Morality and Ethics in one hand and Factual Truths in the other.
Such a Noble individual, to stand against many of those within his own religious faith, knowing them to be Wrong.
This can only be true Righteousness.
bassammaelborno 2 months ago
Typical Israeli answer, never get to the point and keep wasting words to translate it into anti-siamese or anti-Jews and the story goes from here..
Well, Thanks Norman for showing their true faces...
lolotimo 2 months ago 5
@lolotimo yeah, annoying how he speaks without actually saying anything except blaming the other and invoking the holocaust over and over.
AliceThaiWonders 1 month ago
hehe, "Radio Islam"!
Like anything a station with a name like that says is reliable :)
And all those idiots who called him a "scum beg" should get a taste of he's been through.
musikali1 2 months ago
I just read that Germany is going to give another $ 1 billion dollars to Jews. What a joke!
CatherineDeLancret 2 months ago 3
@CatherineDeLancret yeah what a huge fucking racket! the germans are a bunch of spineless pussies at the moment..too afraid of world jewry..besides the holocau$t of 6miljewsnever happened and many know this.
sheyon1000 2 months ago
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bassammaelborno 2 months ago
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bassammaelborno 2 months ago
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bassammaelborno 2 months ago
@MrLamalo1 That`s true.
Freiheitstraeumer 2 months ago
@MrLamalo1 It is hard to find something positive in that conflict. Also, I haven´t focused on hate. I don´t hate the Israelis. I have pointed out why the Palestinians can´t build an economy. Besides I have to disagree with you in your last statement. Israel has an interest to keep in "war" with the Palestinians. On the one hand to keep their people in fear, which helps controlling them. And on the other hand to be able to build new settlements on land that has been "left" by Palestinians.
Freiheitstraeumer 2 months ago
@MrLamalo1 How can somebody build up something like an economy, whenthere is no possibility to import anything? When the Israelis start attacks that destroy their productive structures that are left after 60 years of imprisonment?
Freiheitstraeumer 2 months ago
@MrLamalo1 Strange that your attention isn't drawn to the factual and substantive arguments of Finkelstein vs the insubstantial and in one instance simply false arguments of Charny.
BucketMachine 2 months ago
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bassammaelborno 2 months ago
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bassammaelborno 2 months ago
Israel hears "... a blind attack on Jews and Israel." when he hears someone talk against war/murder. Go Norman!
NZDuriahheap 3 months ago
What is with holocaust and the jews?
In Jasenovac almost 1 million serbs were killed by Croat Ustasha as a ethinc cleanisng, also Roma and other people many of which were Slavs so how come Jews ae the only one who get to speak?
How come noone will talk about Erhard Milich or orpn cross awarded Horst Geitner.
There was a shitload of Jewish Nazi officers serving Hitler alot of them even recived a certificate of being pure ariyans even when they were Jewish and Hitler knew that.
1DarkMasK1 3 months ago
@1DarkMasK1
So to sum everything up.
Everyone who opossed Hitler and his ideas was killed and put in camps no matter if they were jewish or not, many Jews served Hitler and were awarded by iron crosses and put in high ranking places even when Hitler knew that they were Jewish.
My grandmother was in Jasenovac a Nazi camp in Yugoslavia where you had ethnic cleansing againts Ortodox Serbs yet you dont see any Serbs playing the Death Camp card like Israel does.
1DarkMasK1 3 months ago
@1DarkMasK1
Anyone who uses Nazi death camps in this fashion to gain sympathy or other things is moraly bankrupt.
Those who survived the holocoust can tell a story but most of the Israelis that play this game never were in death camps.
1DarkMasK1 3 months ago
@1DarkMasK1 The Holocaust happened in one of the most enlightened countries so it's a scary anomaly in enlightened thinking. What are the Serbs doing to mourn themselves being killed and to keep the memory of the murdered alive? and what % of Serbs were killed? 60-75% of Jews of Europe killed, now jewish communities don't exist in most of those countries. All over Europe Jews were largely not allowed in, it's a lesson to Jews and to Europe.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Jews are an "ethnic" group not a nationality if you go by ethnicity then tell me how many Slavs have been executed and imprisioned during ww2 and during cold war?
Way more then the Jews.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
What on earth is going through your head, do you think i'm trying to have some kind of competition with you, about who suffered more, you lunatic. I just asked you a question. I figured you might know about Slavs since you're talking about them a lot.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
What did you ask exatcly?
Because I haven seen more nonsensical arguments/questions before.
First you compare nationality (serbs) with ethnicinty (jews).
What serbs did?
Nothing what could they do?
Use the holocaust card for there own selfish reasons like jews do?
Many of jews who use holocaust card werent even in the camps or neither they know anyone that were.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Can you quote me and criticise that if you want, though all I was doing was I mention some facts and ask a question to you thinking(probably wrongly) that you knew about serbs, but don't start spouting all this nonsense about what you think about other Jews.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Wowowowowow.
First learn to form seintances because they dont make sense whatsoever.
Second I have answered to your question about Serbs they didnt do anything so whats your point?
Oh everything that is said against the jews is nonsense eh?
So are you saying that Jews dont use holocaust as a weapon like Finkelstein said what is he lying?
Here you go about your prescious innocent Jews.
Search for nazi general Erhard Milich who was a jew and he isnt the only one.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
I didn't ask you if Serbs did anything. I am not disputing that they've suffered terribly. I just asked you what percentage were killed. They are welcome to memorialize it and mourn it. And the people you no doubt would support, the "Palestinians" while they complain about evil Jews "using" the holocaust, they declare their military loss and failure to annihilate Israel, as "Nakba day" and memorialise it every year..
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Ok you jew fucktard here is what is what.
1.) Even if only 1 Serb was killed its sad the same goes for any Jew.
You are basicly saying Jews deserve more credit because they were more killed guess what they dont higher precentage doesnt mean shit 1% of 100 mil is way more then 2% of 2000.
During holocaust 11 mil or more Jews were killed now if you count Slavic people in general around 50 mil or more were killed.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
2.) Palestinas have every right to be pissed about the Jews because Plaestinia is not Jewish land hell neither is Israel.
All your historical "facts" about your land are based on 3000 year old fairy tell book that talks about giants and burning bush real fucking credible.
3.) You can cry all day long about how Jews are great yet you cant even decide who is a jew and who isnt. Some base it on religion others on a origins etc...
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Palestinians while they moan about Jews claiming that Jews make out that they are the number one victims and play the victim card, nobody plays the victim card like the Palestinians. More Arabs killed arabs in 1975-1990 in Lebanon than Israel has killed in the entire 60 year middle east conflict, or 90 years+ even. Abbas has even claimed "we are the last people living under occupation" And as Associated Press pointed out in their fact check, they're not
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
They believe their problems are the root of all issues in the entire middle east and they spread that propaganda. They claim that Jews do it, but they're the masters of it. They obviously think it's a good thing to do. Jews want to not be singled out, e.g. they're not the worst people in the world. Palestinians want to be singled out as biggest victims! And Israel as the worst.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Supposing a Jew became a Nazi general. What percentage of Jews do you think were Nazi generals? Probably not that high a percentage. Maybe not many Nazi generals that were Jews.. But even if it was, it shows how fucked up and self hating jews are. Look at Henry Kissinger that didn't care if Jews were gassed and said Jews were self serving. Jews produce these jew bashing anti-semites of jewish origin. It could be said that somebody like Kissinger is self serving.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Your analogy is flawed Jew isnt the Same as European.
European belong to the same continent, Jews dont,
Jew is not treligious affiliation, it not a nationality, its not a race so no matter how many times you bring this European, white etc... crap it just doesnt bare any weight because its flawed analogy like right from the start.
This is my real question how do you go about saying who is jewish or not?
Can people become jews if they want to?
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Where did I say Jew is the same as European. Obviously it isn't. Clearly you do not understand what I write. Zionism is just self determination for Jews, just like you allow it for other peoples. That Jews also known as Am Yisrael(the people of Israel) should be a free people in their land(Eretz Yisrael-the land of Israel). Am Yisrael(The Jews) are a people that all lived together in Eretz Yisrael(Israel). Their language and religion started there. Jews ruled there.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Provide me any real evidence about Jews ruling anywhere because all historical factual data states that Jews were mentioned thousands of years after the torah.
Before that or about the same time there is not a single thing mentioning the jews,
You claim Jews lost the land prove it what land did they have prove to me with historical data that doesnt relay on the same book that talks about golems and stuff like that.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Well, multiple pieces of evidence put together confirming each other.. Take this one , wikipedia article First_Jewish-Roman_War shows a picture of a Roman coin saying "Judea Capta" (Judea Captured). It was the Roman emperor Hadrian that renamed Judea to Palestine. And there is archaeological evidence of -some- of Israel's Kings. It's difficult to post a link here but a site called allaboutthejourney has a page that mentions a lot
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
You are just silly have you look up the dates about your so called historical facts?
How many of them are before the torah or in the same time?
You wanted to provide me with wikipedia now I will tell you to do the same type in wikipedia King David and then King Solomon and so on.
Even in the first sentance you will find ACCORDING TO jewish scripture so no you are either very ignorant or you spread misinformation on purpose.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Also you can do the same with United kingdom of israel and Judah (state)
Or any other so called jewish state at that time.
Text alone doesnt prove anything you will always need ADDITIONAL evidence to support the claim.
For example how many different "states" or countries mention Olympus as an actual place or Atlantis or any other mythological place.
Do you believe atlantis is real, and olympus where greek gods live or Camelot?
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Well that's a nice theory. So the Romans when they minted coins saying Judea Capta, (judea captured) that was all having a laugh was it? there was no Judea? And other nations mentioning Israelite kings and victories and defeats with them, that's fantasy too. Archaeology has a methodology, and they don't doubt the Hebrews were there. They find Ancient Hebrew inscribed on old stones there. As well as coins, and evidence of jewish revolts against the Romans
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
1.) I am not saying Jews didnt exist I am saying that they were not a tribe or having a kingdom like described in a fucking fairy tell book called torah.
All "evidence" you provided was thousands years later.
You have people that become fans of a book and believe it to be true and start to call themselves different.
For example in UK you have now Jedi as a real religion (from star wars)
The same thing was with the people they like torah and they became Jews.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
What are you nuts.. The point is they are not Israelite sources. These are other nations talking about the Israelites. As far as when the Torah is dated, academics differ. But the Torah is the beginning of Ancient Israelite religion and what makes Israelites Israelites, so why should there be mention of Israelites before their religion? As far as I know, academics believe Israelites started as a group of Canaanites.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
So what if they are not Israelite do you know how we know about Atlantis?
From a GREEK philosophor yet idiots like you believe it to be a real place.
Judeism is not Isrealite religion because at the time when torah was written there is no mention of Israelite or even before the torah.
"As far as I see"
I rest my fucking case we are done.
If you cant provide me with evidence from those times you are in no position to say shit.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And in your theory, not based on evidence, Jews never existed in Israel, that goes against what all academics and archaeologists and historians know. And the only thing I said "as far as I know" to, was this " As far as I know, academics believe Israelites started as a group of Canaanites." You are welcome to reject what academics and archaeologists say.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Canaanites are Canaanites we are talking about the jews so dont try to jew yourself out by this idiotic statement.
Hey guess what Arabs probably started as Sumerians.
I can play this game to but it is still stupid.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
and as to what you call a silly game that you play, the fact is that we are all from Africa..according to biologists. Does that mean there are no other nationalities? No. But we haven't all kept our african identities.. So Africa isn't particularly meaningful to the average european. His religion is not african, his language is not the language of his african ancestors ..and so on. His identity is lost and replaced with a new one.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Thats right we all came from Africa and different cultures emerged.
However what you were implaying is that Jewish culture existed like couple of thosuands years BC when thats a lie it didnt.
I even Asked you about evidence about King David and so on which is what a lot of jews are proud of it and you havent provide any and you know why because there is no proof.
Jewish culture do not predate Assyrians, Sumerians, Babylonians etc...
It came much much later.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
and no I didn't say or imply anything about "jewish culture" or Israel or Jews existing a couple of thousand years BC. But let's see how far back.. No religious Jew would say it existed before 1800BCE for example. And through archaeology we have the Merneptah Stele interpreted by most archaeologists and ancient historians to mention Israel, and it is at 1203-1213BCE I never said or implied that Jews existed a few thousand years BCE. Who does?
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
I am awere about Merneptah Stele but did you read in what context he was mentioning that?
Here:
"The stela does make clear that "Israel" at this stage refers to a people or tribal confederation, the Ancient Israelites, and not a kingdom or city state, since the determinative used is that for "foreign people", not that for "country".[9]"
he was saying Israel as a fucking tribe and not as a state or kingdom.
Wanna spread more misinformation pls?
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
You lack reading comprehension skills..I gave you evidence of Israelite Kings. You brought up(in your obtuse way) , you brought up the question of how far back Israelites go .. That Stele only says what it says and that is evidence of Israelites existing as early as the Stele is dated. Rome captured Judea, and minted coins to boast of it.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Nah there are 2 possibilities:
A.) You are ignorant motherfucker with no proper education
B.) You are lying dishonest prick
Which of this options is true.
You gave me the names of kings that WERE NOT David or Solomon which I ASKED you for.
Next that Stele mentions Israel as a TRIBE not as a KINGDOM which a lot of jews say they exited in those times and further back.
Next about Judea there is no or minimal proof about judea belonging to the Jews.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Type kingdom of judah and search for evidence
Go down and search for archeological evidence.
Israel was always mentioned as a tribe and not a state or kingdom that belong to the jews.
Judea was just a name of a country so those coins only state that Judea was captured.
just because it was called Judea doesnt mean it belong to the Jews New York is an english word yet it doesnt belong to the British I mean jesus christ.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Besides Judea became Jewish only after revolt few hundred years before Romans capture it it was basicly a civil war. If you look further Judea was never Jewish like described by jews (kingdom of Judah).
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
I am not claiming there was or was not, or to what extent as described in the bible, there was a Kingdom of Judah , I don't see how it is relevant. All i'm saying is the Israelites were a people back then and had Kings. My views aren't based on more than that they don't require the bible to be true. And as I said, i'm an Atheist.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
by that I mean, there are other facts, like Jews sharing more with each other genetically than with their neighbours, which refutes some other lies of jew haters, but ultimately, the jewish bond to that land going back thousands of years, is clear as day.It is the bond of Am Yisrael, to Eretz Yisrael - the people of Israel, to the land of Israel.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Well if with that you mean Jews in the same place share more things geneticly then with lets say Arab palestinians then yeah its possible.
Thats just evolution or adaptation should I say however If you had Arabs and Jews in the same place for a while they would become the same geneticly.
Race is much more broader aspect then just minor changes.
For example some one having a little more darker skin then other doesnt make it a race.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Actually Arab palestinians share a lot genetically with Jews in Europe and Jews from Arab lands, more interestingly, with Jews in Europe.. Got that from a study mentioned in this documentary watch?v=MOolCRSf74I about the jewish origins of "palestinians". It mentions professor ariella oppenheim hadassah medical school, intenational study with participation of prof marina fiereman and dr dvora filon. Prof Oppenheim said it in that documentary that their study found that.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
So it's not about just location.. As I said earlier, the study mentioned in the 2010 NYtimes article "Studies Show Jews' Genetic Similarity" which says Jews from Europe and Jews from Arab lands have more in common with each other than with their neighbours.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
of course, it does indicate that Jews were at one time living together, and became dispersed. But even after 2000 years of living apart, the Jews from europe and jews from arab lands have more in common with each other genetically, than with their neighbours. Despite looking physically more like neighbours than like each other! The genetic studies say what they say.
boliussa 1 month ago
cont..
Furthermore, I see you spoke of thousands of years BC. Perhaps you got confused. I asked who said it and you had no reply. The Jewish bond to that land, of Am Yisrael to Eretz Yisrael, does go back thousands of years, but not thousands of years before 0 BCE. Certainly there (my computer is a little slow but i'll check) hebrew inscriptions from thousands of years ago. Like a 10th century BCE one was found in 2010.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
And what I was saying is that the Jews who advocate Israel to the extant like described in the bible or in their scriptures are lying.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Both religious jews and religious christians believe in the bible. it's not that they're lying, they just believe their holy book, and so even before Archaeology, they believed in the jewish presence in the land(they were right, ahead of academics) and they believe a whole book with many things that are probably false, including a God, which I think is false too. I am stronger on jewish rights to Israel and against palestinian propaganda, than many religious jews.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
I dont care about documentaries or NYtimes.
Give me the same study mentioned in SCIENCE JOURNAL or anything that has peer review by other scientists.
I have seen alot of documentaries by a PHD profesors claming that Our gods were really Ancient aliens.
If jews dodnt match up with sking, eyes, hair color etc...
Then they dodnt match up geneticly too since those things are also product of genetics.
All people share something in common .
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
For genetics, that nytimes article mentioned two.. It gave some details so i've
examined further, a survey team i looked up Atzmon-Ostrer jewish genetics Up came
a sciencedaily doht com link mentioning the June issue of the American Journal of Human
Genetics (June 2010). peer reviewed no doubt. nytimes june 2010 article(published
on 9th june) also mentioned a survey in "thursday's edition of Nature" (so try 3rd
june 2010 nature magazine). (had error posting a moment ago)
bolius1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
I've been telling you that the question of evidence for King David and King Solomon is irrelevant and illegitimate. Earlier you were trying to say that Israelites are a fiction, and that there were no Kings. I just gave evidence of Kings. As far as a King David is concerned, if there were no evidence at all it doesn't mean Israel had no Kings. I showed you evidence of Kings. Archaeology only digs up some things of the past, but it tells us a minimal set of things well.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
1.) I never said that or I did but not the way you presented I was talking about various jewish Kingdoms that predated David or should I say before he united them.
You were giving me examples such as Judea which was done via revolt which means from the inside and not because it existed on its own for hundreds of years.
2.) Defualt position is no belief until proven true so if there is no evidence or minimal evidence for David your non belief is justified.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
and the Israelites are a tribal people - with converts. No race is pure as I said, and Jews don't try to be, never have, Jews have accepted converts in every generation no matter how far back you go. Right from the start. There haven't been many generally speaking, particularly over the past 2000 years. But there have always been converts. And as a result, Jews still retain genetic similarity as a people despite their dispersion, despite looking different.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
On the last note Jews are ethnicinty they are not a race.
You should educate yourself about what ethnicinty is and what race is like Arabs, Persians, and us you all belong to the caucasian race.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
You probably know more about Ethnicity and race than I do.. but you ask an ignorant question "What possible can a blue eyed, blodne haired jews share with brown skinned jew share geneticly?" which shows you won't be good at seeing who is a race. So race is based on genetics, Ethnicity is based on language and culture.. OK. Jews are both then. Look up nytimes article "Studies Show Jews' Genetic Similarity" it mentions academic scientific studies on the genetics of jews worldwide.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
I asked you that question because you yourself was arguing that Jews are a race.
That only showed that Jews are not infact a race because no 2 jews share same things genericly.
Now you say about this studies can you please show them?
That prove all jews are geneticly similar.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And Arabs, as in those in Arabia probably do share a lot genetically, and perhaps most there haven't mixed much with those elsewhere in the middle east. Remember that those elsewhere in the middle east adopted the title Arab because of arab nationalism. and speaking arabic. The real arabs are still the Arabians. And before they came up with the idea of gaining political power with arab nationalism, they might've not considered other arabic speakers elsewhere are real arabs.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And for a long time Egypt emphatically didn't consider itself Arab. But now it very much does. Arabs in Saudi Arabia, would share a lot genetically. Do you think race is only skin deep? One question you ask suggests that you think genetics is only skin deep! But if you look at the facts, like the study I mentioned see the nytimes article, Jews are technically a race(not pure, but technically a race) if genetics makes a race.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
Check out definition about a race and then about ethnicity and you will set yourself free.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
well I think i'm as free as you are,and no more or less free than any other rational person,but looking at the wikipedia article"Race_(classification_of_humans)"it shows some define it as physical characteristics.but there's another definition as genetic.If you scroll down to Templeton(1998) the definition is about Genetic similarity.So not necessarily phenotype/physical similarity.So I suppose one could speak of a genetic race and a physical race..Jews as technically a genetic race
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
The Israelites Am Yisrael are remarkable for making their religion portable and for it keeping their Israelite identity alive for a 2000 year exile. Throughout the world, far away from their homeland Eretz Yisrael. Being powerless and persecuted for 2000 years, and finally returning once again and this time able to defend themselves. Jews from Yemen, Iraq, France , looking quite different now, but all one people together again speaking Hebrew. It's an amazing thing.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And while all you jew haters claimed Jews weren't a people.. jews were khazars etc.. with your weak hypothesis.. even though jews preceded khazars in europe. Now scientific studies show that Jews in Europe and Jews in Arab lands have more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Genetic studies disprove the nasty lies of Jew haters and show Jews all over the world are one people.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
"Genetic studies about jews"
Wait what?
What has that anything to dowith anything?
Jews are not a race they dont have any common racial characteristics with each other I have even seen Jews with blond hair and blue eyes.
Rather then providing evidence for the things I ask you you talk about jews speaking Hebrew togheter oh wow.
I have seen people speaking togheter klingon so whats your point?
Besides I dont hate Jews I am just pointing out most of their stuff is fictional
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
We are done with this debate since you failed to provide any evidence for King David, Kingdom of Israel etc....
Also with your moronic logic your prescious allies USA should be attacked and taken over by Native Americans.
Greeks should take over a shitlot of Europe etc...
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Obviously there are going to be peoples predating Am Yisrael(The People of Israel), good for them, it is remarkable how the Jews have survived, and have returned to be sovereign again in Eretz Yisrael(the land of Israel). Others in "historic palestine" already have a state in most of it 70% of it, called Jordan that was almost called the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine..
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
What are you a complete moron?
What possible can a blue eyed, blodne haired jews share with brown skinned jew share geneticly?
Jews are not a fucking race neither are arabs they all belong to the caucasian race you dumb fucktard.
Ethnicinty isnt based on genetics its based on language, culture etc...
Black people share things geneticly you wont see white black person or white asian or anything for that matter.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
You said there is evidence of King David so what is it?
Where is it?
You provided me with some kings etc... that existed way way after the supposed Kingdom of Israel and David.
You jews like to talk about King David even his star is in Israel flag yet where is the evidence for his existence.
Arabs were not always Islamic religion is really a nonfactor here because religions come and go.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
If you dont provide evidence for King David, Kingdom of Israel etc...
Dont fucking replay to my post or giving me evidence about Jewish kings like during Roman Empire.
You jEws claimed that your culture existed in the time of Babylonians, Assyirians hell even ancient Egyptians that you were slaves there yet again no evidence.
So evidence or STFU
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And no that evidence isnt irrelevant it is really relevant.
Because Iran should have a fucking Isrel and all other fucking middle east even Africa since Iranians are Persians and Persian Empire is a well established fact supported by numerous evidence predating anything Jewish.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Greece was an Imperialistic Empire that took a lot more than Greece(I assume it started from Greece). I am not in favour of such things at all. Sadly the MIddle east was taken over by the Arab-Islammic imperialistic empire which has been bad for many cultures and peoples there, fortunately the Kurds survived and continue to survive it.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
You simply don't follow logic. I never gave any logic to draw the conclusion you drew about native americans taking over. No Arab lost his home until they attacked the state of israel to be, in 1948. And I see you react with hysteria over the genetic similarities.. indeed, Jews are one people, and Jews from Arab lands and Jews from Europe (even though looking different) , share more in common genetically with each other, than they do with their neighbours.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
As to King David, there is evidence actually, but it's irrelevant because I showed there were Israelite Kings. and Israelites in Israel.. hebrew on stones there.. and other peoples mentioning them. We were a people sovereign there, - we had Kings, and that's the point. We had some autonomy under the Romans too. Am Yisrael even fought the Romans to gain control of Eretz Yisrael.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And your question is simply illegitimate and irrelevant. Why should there be israelites before the Torah? Maybe the Torah was what made the Israelites a people.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
I've given a ton of archaeological evidence, that archaeologists find very acceptable. You are just trying to explain it away.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
You gave me 0 relevant evidence whatsoever.
I asked you 100000 of times about Evidence about King David, Solomon, United kingdom of Israel or Kingdom of Judea as a Jewish state and not roman provinence.
Show me evidence for that or go away.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
There is some evidence of King David, but it is irrelevant, and the Israelites were there before the Romans. And had Kings, some left archaeological evidence. I am an Atheist. I do not believe "west palestine" is jewish land based on the bible. I believe it based on the strength of the jewish claim to that land compared to the "arab" claim.
boliussa 1 month ago
cont. I believe it based on morality. I do not think the "palestinians" have a right to a 22nd arab state and 2nd palestinian state in the heart of the jewish homeland.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa don't waste your time with this guy, i read your conversation and the guy can't even spell let alone look up something. He probably didn't understand half of what you said by the way he answered you. btw i just wanted to tell you that i find that I've learned a lot from what you said. Thank you from the info.
buffymtl 4 weeks ago
@buffymtl
my pleasure, and I know that others might learn too, so I knew it's not a waste of time. But also, sometimes people can be wrong and argue, but you don't see a mind change there and then but their mind might change in time after a while of contemplating the facts/points that have been presented to them.True so often people aren't honest and looking for true facts, but as you say, and i'm aware of, others that are more honest and open to looking at all the facts, can learn from them.
boliussa 4 weeks ago
@boliussa
Besides even if everything you said is proven to be 100% correct and true thatd doesnt change the fact that this current Jews are not the ones that used to live.
Egyptians are no longer the ones from the past.
Under your fucked up logic only Native Americans are Americans :S
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
Well, the current Jews have retained their identity for 2000 years. And spread throughout te world, in Europe, and the Middle East (less so the middle east now since the Arabs caused them to flee since the state of israel), but Jews all over the world in Europe and from Arab lands, have more in common with each other than with their neighbours. Because they're one people.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
and one people still speaking the same language and practicing the same religion(though religions evolve a bit granted), but jews all over the world have the same religious practices, even though living far apart for millenia.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
the "Shishak Relief" mentions King Rehoboam in 925BC The Moabite Stone mentions Israelite victories of Israelite kings King Omri and King Ahab against Moab. The "Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser" describes the Assyrian victory over Israelite King Jehu. A declaration stating ""I killed Jehoram son of Ahab king of Israel and I killed Ahaziahu son of Jehoram king of the House of David."
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
All others ruling there since the Jews lost that land, until the Jews regained it, have been Empires.. Arab-Islammic, Christian. Just Empires. Not a sovereign nation ruling there.
boliussa 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And regarding the production of self hating Jews, bear in mind that Europeans have the problem too, of self hating Europeans, just not as bad as Jews have it. So you can blame Europeans are evil then because there are self hating Europeans that "tell the truth" about how evil white people are.
boliussa 1 month ago
@boliussa
And last think they might be small % of Jews that use holocaust for own selfish reasons however here is the kicker that small % is in Israeli politics that small % of jews is in other powerful positions and other seem to be fine with it.
1DarkMasK1 1 month ago
@1DarkMasK1
And besides obsessing about their Nakha.. Palestinians and Israel bashers obsess non stop about the Holocaust.. Arabs deny it.. and are leaders in Holocaust denial.. And while Finkelstein uses the Holocaust to bash Jews that make money out of it.. it's a tiny number that do it. I wish Jews had gone after such bad people themselves instead of such a self promoting israel basher claiming to do it or not even claiming to.
boliussa 1 month ago
@irishrogue61mak2 thank you
abuzainah1 3 months ago
sorry, finkelstein
vincentmatthijs 3 months ago
All my respect to finkenstein!
vincentmatthijs 3 months ago
God another scam bag down, god bless you norman !
TheCorruptor123 3 months ago 13
@TheCorruptor123
I get more and more respect for the jews. No one like them. Defender of human being just as usual.
Long live the Jews and their homeland.....Israel !!
ysopuatmube 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheCorruptor123
I get more and more respect for the jews. No one like them. Both jews on the interview are defenders of human rights just as usual
Long live the Jews and their homeland.....Israel !!
ysopuatmube 3 months ago
The Holocaust does not add up to the facts. Zionists have been screaming holocaust since the 1800's. Definition: Holocaust 1.a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.2.a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.3.the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II
4.any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
( propaganda inflitration of english dictionaries) (just like the bible)
Blondewithtools 3 months ago
@callouschristian
Finkelstein is an academic joke, Dershowitz destroyed him, he couldn't even get tenure in DePaul, he's a terrorist apologist and bedfellows with terrorists. All Abrahamic religions believe their respective dogma is "chosen" and the other damned you fool. Your nation, the US has killed more people than Israel has in 63 years, you've supported, armed, trained the worlds worst human rights abusers like Saudi to the tune of $60 billion. Worry about your stink myopic hypocrite!
ByTheShortAndCurlies 3 months ago
@ByTheShortAndCurlies You sound like you have a problem with people who are obviously better than you. You said you are from Israel, didin't you. Israel is a cancer of the world. Your post is a shining example why. Have some class as your racist, apartheid country self implodes. You've made a big enough fool of yourself.
callouschristian 3 months ago