@mgreer511002 Romans 9, 10, and 11 are about more than just Israel. They, and for that matter, the entire book of Romans deals with not only Israel's but the Gentile's past, present, and future. Did you miss Rom3:9 where Paul says "Is God merely the God of Jews? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also" I suggest that before giving gratuitous theology lessons to make wise the simple, first make sure you know what the bible actually teaches.
@mgreer511002 LOL, so far all you've done is make claims to having special knowledge like some kind of modern day gnostic, but the only thing you offerred to back up your bluster is a sophomoric statement about Romans that was easily disproven by a single verse from Romans itself! You obviously know nothing about Romans or anything else in the bible, just a pretentious blowhard exposed by your own glaring ignorance. Better luck next time.
. . . And the insults continue... we can finish this discussion in heaven before our Lord and he can straighten out right from wrong (if you think I'll be there)
@mkwheeland87 You need to wake up my little apostate friend. Jesus said in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life:to know You, the only true and real God, and the Christ Whom You have sent" Calvinists promote a false gospel condemned with an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9 and worship a god who creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them in hell; that's NOT the God of the bible. By Christ's definition you won't be seeing anyone in heaven; Calvinism has NOTHING to do with Christianity.
@mkwheeland87 1st, what you're not getting is that the only "unconditional election" in the bible is God's rejection of Adam and replacing him with the last Adam, Christ. Jacob (Israel) is a type of that sovereign election and all men were called to follow the light God then gave through Israel and now to follow the light of Christ Himself. 2nd, chastising someone is obviously different than eternally condemning them. 3rd, pharoah wasn't at the Red Sea, where did you get that idea; a movie?
@JoanDArc77 We both agree man's faith places a role in salvation (Ephesians 2 "grace through faith").
Your understanding of Romans 8 is flawed. It begins "those whom he FOREKNEW . . he called then justified" aka . . God doesn't miss a single one of those whom he foreknew--they all get saved. This verse doesn't allow for God's elect to resist him. It also says he glorifies them, which demonstrates God doesn't lose a Christian (perseverance of [all] the saints).
@mkwheeland87 No, it's your understanding of Rom8:30 that's flawed. 1st, it's speaking in future perfect tense ie, of future things as though they'd already occurred, no one has yet been glorified nor will they ever if they don't first receive Christ and then continue to follow Him. 2nd, nowhere does the bible say "God doesn't miss a single one of those whom he foreknew--they all get saved" but the opposite. The entire 1st generation of Israelites were foreknown yet they all died in the desert.
@JoanDArc77 Accepting Christ and following him is ASSUMED in the passage (he already described justification in chapters 4-5 he doesn't need to explain it again in chapter 8) therefore he says "foreknew . called . justified . . and glorified" (duh only Jesus is glorified now, but we exist in Him) But he does not allow for some to lose their justification because the purpose of it is to "be made like Christ" (8:28-29).
I think you're assuming the unregenerate Hebrews were foreknew.
@mkwheeland87 1st, Ex4:22-23 "Say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn. And I say to you, Let My son go, that he may serve Me" to claim God didn't foreknow them is asinine. 2nd, the NT repeatedly warns about remaining faithful or losing salvation eg, Rom11:22 "...God's gracious kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be CUT OFF" 3rd, you should indeed be humble since you're so biblically illiterate.
@JoanDArc77 I sincerely was just saying I hope both our hearts are open to correction, wasn't trying to say anything about you. I know it's hard to see authenticity over a silly format like this.
But in light of your insult (illiterate) and name calling (asinine), I'm deciding not to continue this conversation. Up until this point, I enjoyed it. As Christians we ought to be truthful and gracious, only edifying in our words.
@mkwheeland87 Those weren't insults but the truth. I've patiently tolerated all your rather shallow, juvenile remarks and arguments since you arrived, I answered and refuted all of them clearly by God's word, but instead of acknowledging your errors you just jumped to other verses you've twisted into pretzels and then began making rude remarks ("duh only Jesus is glorified now..."). You're ignorant of God's word, what you do know of it you don't understand, and your attitude is insufferable.
@mkwheeland87 4th, Rom9:16 is saying salvation doesn't originate from man's will but from God's, not that man's will isn't involved. Without God providing a way back thru Christ, intervening by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance, man can't be saved, but he must still choose to receive it. 5th, the fact that God justifies those He calls doesn't negate that they can reject His call, and as verses like Rom5:18 say, ALL men are justified by Christ's sacrifice, they must receive it
@brydust And? Jews have more questions about Christianity than most others. They can't understand how anyone could believe an executed criminal represents the wisdom of God and the power of God. But it's a paradox resolved in their own scriptures such as Isa53.
@JoanDArc77 Jews view their Talmud as an elaboration of their Scriptures. Torah and Scripture tells Jews God's will. Talmud shows them how to put it into practice.
@Talltrees84 Christians view Christ as the complete fulfillment of the Old Testament scriptures, as the Living Word of God. He didn't endorse any of the Jews' extra-biblical writings, laws, or man made traditions saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except by Me.
How does the Calvinist know that he/she is elect? The only way I know that I am saved is that Whosoever will may come and by faith have come to drink of the water of life freely along with the other willing. I have solisated this salvation and believe in a God of mercy who will accept me, otherwise I perish, but how do these reformed ones know that they were pre selected to eternal life? No illwill here.
@tiredoldcrow They probably won't answer you, but the fact is that Calvinists can't really know if they're actually saved or not. Under Calvinism's teachings, no one can be certain if they were really selected by God until they die, nothing in their interpretation of God's word gives them any assurance that they're actually among the elect.
rbmath has made a loving and biblical defense of the doctrine of predestination/irresistible grace. Remember, before you can convince one of error in their doctrine, you must first demonstrate you understand their doctrine. You have not done so Joan. You've referred to a mean ol god vs helpless people... Man is not helpless, he is wicked, and God is not the author of sin! He gives man freedom and naturally, man sins. (Rom 1:24) Listen to James White teach the Greek in Rom 9 or visit CrossTV
@ONEOVER99 1st, before anyone can be convinced of their error they must be willing to admit the truth about their beliefs, Calvinists can't repent unless they stop putting lipstick on the pig they embrace. Every branch of Calvinism says that God is ultimately responsible for man's fall into sin, that He irresistibly forces grace on a select few, and creates the remainder solely for destruction in order to "glorify Himself". If you deny this, then you either aren't a Calvinist or you're lying
@JoanDArc77 said, "Calvinists can't repent unless they stop putting lipstick on the pig they embrace"??
I love you in the name of Christ Jesus but, seriously?! Are you Jesus now? Or the Holy Spirit perhaps??? Are you at the right hand of the Father interceding for man and its up to you to say who can and who can not repent?
FYI, God does EVERYTHING to His glory. Is that a problem with you? Seriously, you seem mad at God for being God. R u angry because the Potter is sovereign over you (clay)?
@ONEOVER99 1st, repentance is based on facing the truth about your doctrines which like your confederate, you're evading. 2nd, the controversy isn't about God's sovereignty but Calvinism's misrepresentation of how God uses it. He doesn't force salvation on anyone nor does He deny it but instead convicts all men of their sin, calls them to repentance, and those who choose to obey Him are given to Christ for regeneration. Only those who reject His grace are sovereignly judged and condemned.
I will ask again. Does God have Divine freedom to choose WHO to save or not to save. Does God HAVE what you defend so strongly that man has, namely the FREEWILL. the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE? It seems you deny this Divine freedom that God has....
So God, before the beginning of time, said "I will make man and give him an order not to eat of a tree, yet will make him such that he can't help but dissobey, because I will it so and then I will save a minority # of them to myself, and will hate the rest into hell forever for what they are because I made it so for my good pleasure. God is love." Please tell me if and where I have missrepresented the calvanist position. What love is this?
@tiredoldcrow That about sums it up. In Calvinism, God wanted Adam to fall into sin and tested him beyond his ability to resist. He routinely gives commands He doesn't really want to be obeyed and so He withholds the power to obey them, every sin is decreed and orchestrated by God. It's one of the deadlier heresies, causing believers to fall into apostasy and unbelievers to reject Christianity altogether. The Calvinist God makes Satan not look so bad, at least he doesn't claim to love mankind.
@JoanDArc77... It seems you really hate the absolute Sovereignty of God in bring about His own glory for His own reasons. YOUR view has a weak god who tries his best but often fails to actually save people who he wants to save. Example. You pray for a lost loved one but he still dies unsaved. You say to god.
"that's alright god, I know you did your best to save him without interfering with his freewill, it seems god that people can prevent your word from coming true after all Isa 46:10" .
@rbmath Actually, my God is superior in every way. He loves all people unconditionally, has provided salvation for them through Christ as a free gift, desires that none perish but that all should come to repentance, and draws them all to an eternal relationship with Him. Instead, yours irresistibly forces salvation on only a select few while commanding the vast majority to repent but then doesn't allow them to do so. The best thing is that my God actually exists, yours is a Satanic delusion.
@JoanDArc77 1)You falsely assume that Calvinist think that God hates some people. (2) You falsely assume that Calvinism teaches "forced salvation" (3) You falsely assume that the "NATURAL MAN / WOMAN" wants to repent..
@JoanDArc77 I have never personally seen anyone that was against the teachings of Calvinism honestly and correctly understand or show what is truly taught by Calvinism. No one is asking you to accept Calvinism, but, if your going to speak against it you should should properly understand WHAT your against. and NOT misrepresent it...
@rbmath Already been answered, it's been demonstrated YOU'RE the one guilty of misrepresenting Calvinism. Calviinists know their doctrines are reprehensible, offend the conscience, and can't be reconciled with the bible so most of their time is used building a facade to make them APPEAR orthodox and when the false veneer is stripped away they claim they're being misrepresented. The truth is you believe God forces salvation on some and creates helpless people with no recourse for destruction.
@JoanDArc77 RE: Calviinists know their doctrines are reprehensible, offend the conscience... ANSWER: and this is your defense? It looks more like a bad joke... I see your really not interested in HONESTLY dealing with these issue but wish to believe lies.....
@rbmath The only joke here are your posts, but they're not funny. We'd prosecute people and put them in jail for what you say God does to helpless people, your demonic doctrines are repugnant to anyone's conscience. Even you know it and try desperately to dress them up using fallacious word games. You refuse to admit that according to your OWN doctrines certain people are irresistibly forced to be saved while others are purposely excluded and created solely to be destroyed, with no remedy,
@JoanDArc77..You have not answered if you really LOVE God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY or LOVE God enough to agree that God has absolute Divine freedom to save or not to save anyone He wishes.You know God IS the potter and we are the clay Rom 9:20-21. People who are DEAD in sin cannot be forced. People who have a heart of stone cannot be forced. The "natural man" CANNOT submit to God because he hates God. 1Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7, Eph 2:1,5. Col 2:13.
@JoanDArc77 One last thing... "How is your love for God's total sovereignty", IF agreeing with it intellectually, but hate it in practice, than you're only fooling yourself that you really love God first and most of all, Mat 22:36-37. it really shows that you only love your idea of God. What I see in your posts is that God does NOT have freewill to save WHOM He wants to and simple passover others. You know God IS the potter and we are the clay Rom 9:20-21. Does God have freedom to choose?
@rbmath Isa46:10 is referring to God's decrees and it's therefore irrelevant to the issue of salvation which as Christ said in Mt22:8-9 is by invitation and for all people, and not by decree. The Holy Spirit convicts all men of their sin, draws them all to Christ, God desires that all of them accept His mercy and grace thru Christ, and all who repent and accept Him will be saved. That's the real gospel, your limited gospel is just as counterfeit as your God is.
@JoanDArc77. So your really saying that If God decreed to save someone who He decreed to save from the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 and send His word out Isa 46:10 to save that person it really means NOTHING. Your also saying that ALL the people God the Father gives to Jesus will NOT be saved, which means that Jesus CAN LOSE SOME. SO what Jesus said. "I LOSE NOTHING" was a mistake or just wishful thinking on Jesus part..
@rbmath The only one who's misrepresented Calvinism here is YOU, trying to deny that force is involved in IRRESISTIBLE Grace and saying your God somehow "loves" people who He created solely to cast into hell after commanding them to repent but not giving them the ability to obey it! Instead, all God's covenants and promises are conditional, based on faith and obedience. He provides salvation to all thru Christ, it's a gift offered by invitation NOT by decree, and He will honor each choice.
@JoanDArc77 .And exactly HOW do you know this? -----> RE: and not by decree.... Did God tell you? you should not read too much into Matthew 22:1-14. Unless you think that YOU are "worthy" too be saved? Are you that arrogant too think so? ...
@fractalfires.. Does have absolute sovereignty and freedom to save or reject anyone He pleases? its really a simple question? It seems that you think God OWES people salvation. Do have a scripture to back this up. NO.. None exist...
@fractalfires.. Tell me since WHEN does God OWE people salvation? Do you God to be "fair" then WHY should an all holy God send His innocent Son to die for sinners in their place? Tell how "RIGHT" is it that God sent His INNOCENT Son to die for sinners, that He laid all their sins on His Son. You still show how much you really hate the idea of God's absolute sovereignty. Mercy is NOT owed to anyone NOR is salvation owed to anyone.
@SpaceAboveSky not sure how this disproves what I said? Paul says Gal 3:16 Christians are united with Christ and with Christ are heirs of the promise Gal 3:29. Paul explains further in Gal 4:22-31 that Christians are of the free woman. God has always known who His children are Eph 1:4. and Peter quoting Moses Act 3:22-23 teaches that anyone who rejects Christ is cut off from God.
@fractalfires. I'm not surprised that you resort to insults since you are unable to use scriptures in proper context to back up your views. Even using what "Aleister Crowley" is said to have taught. I was right you do hate the idea of God's absolute sovereignty in His creation. Your lack of understanding clearly shows and I have better things to do than chat with someone who uses insults.. May God open your mind...
@fractalfires RE:Your god is the devil... Really. A Simple Question. Is God absolutely 100% free in His Divine sovereignty to save who He wants too and reject who he wants too... Personally I NEVER seen a person such as yourself correctly understand Calvinism, they always dance around the question about God's absolute sovereignty. While they might agree with intellectually they deny it in practice.
"Natural man" dead in sins,slaves to sin,hostile to God,cannot understand the things of God,cannot submit to the law of God,HAS a deceitful heart,must be born again,cannot repent nor come to Christ nor understand the scriptures on his own,no one seeks for God,has a heart of stone,cannot do “good,Faith is a gift of God,has “turned aside” from God, is a child of wrath, under the curse of the law, the message of the cross is foolishness, blinded by the god of this world, love darkness,
@fractalfires RE:Ephesians..Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, it still says DEAD. TD: G3498 nekros .. 2a) spiritually dead.. Do you deny that Adam's fallen sinful nature was passed on? RE:natural man.. NO. Divinely Inspired Scriptures teaches many things about about the "natural man." "hatred" is only one of the many reasons that I found.
@fractalfires. I did NOT misread it, your analogy assumes man has "freewill" to accept God or not. The only "freewill" man has is to freely follow is sinful nature. Scriptures do teach people are DEAD in sin. Spiritually DEAD. No scripture teach that the "natural man" wants God or will freely on his without God actually seek God...
@fractalfires It also seems that YOU really hate God and protest against His ABSOLUTE sovereignty to do as HE wants with HIS creation. You really hate the idea that God is the potter and we the clay and He is 100% free to save people or NOT to save people, Rom 9:15..
@fractalfires Your little story is based on wrong assumptions. The two kids are dead BEFORE their dad placed them in the boat. Scriptures says "DEAD in sins" Eph 2:1. Their dad is NOT an ALL Holy God that all have sinned against.. You also assume that the "natural man" protests against God that he cannot obey God, when scriptures teach the "natural man" HATES God Rom 8:7, Col 1:21,
Please use your "free will" to free yourself from your sins, Joh_8:34, Rom_3:23, Use your freewill to grant yourself spiritual understanding, 1Cor 2:14, Use your freewill to submit yourself to God's law. ALL APART FROM ANY HELP OF GOD... The only freewill man has to is freely follow his sinful fallen nature...
@rbmath 5th Arminians acknowledge that salvation is all of God, in his fallen condition man can't save himself. If God hadn't intervened in his hopeless condition by providing a Savior, convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance then man could never be saved. None of that sets aside the fact that when God calls him to repentance, man can choose to remain in his sins and reject the call. You're using usual false arguments typically used by Calvinists to misrepresent Arminian beliefs.
@JoanDArc77. Than the Arminian has to say that man really does not have freewill since God HAS to act on man FIRST.. RE:reject the call.ANSWER: Scriptures says. Joh 6:37-40. ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me. The will of God the Father for Jesus IS. "I LOSE NOTHING," ."that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life" The "EVERYONE" of V 40 is the ALL of V 37 of whom Christ will lose NOTHING..They are given a new heart to follow God. Eze_11:19, Eze_36:26,
@rbmath 3rd, man's free will is restricted by physical and spiritual limitations, he can't do whatever he wants, anytime he wants, but when he's convicted of sin and called to repentance, he has the option to accept or reject it because God gives him that choice. 4th, the bible states repeatedly that the will of the Father is to lose no one as in Jn6, but the sad fact is that many reject His call and others later decide to turn back. 5th, the promises in Eze are conditional based on obedience.
@JoanDArc77 RE:3rd... So it man's free will is "restricted by physical and spiritual limitations" than exactly HOW is it freewill? RE: God gives him that choice... QUESTION: do you please have ANY scriptures that clearly teaches this? personally I found none.. RE: 4th,... So you believe that small finite man can stop the word all powerful God? Isa 46:10... 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';... RE:5th.. And WHERE does it say its "conditional"
@rbmath 3rd God redeemed all men by Christ's sacrifice, the reason any go to hell is because they reject Him and His substitutionary payment, the only other option is to pay for their own sins. 4th, Christ did die for the sin of rejecting HIm but like all sin, it must be repented of in order to be forgiven. 5th, Calvinism DOES teach God forces certain people to be saved unless you deny Irresistible Grace. And the corrolary is also true ie, He denies salvation to others. To deny this is futile
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd.. So it comes down once again to "is Christ the PERFECT SAVIOR" see what I already posted.. Your 3rd and 4th points assume man has "freewill" which you failed to prove..5th.. Once again you have false views. Spiritually dead means spiritually dead. it does NOT mean as falsely suggest. You need to clarify what you mean by "separation from God" in the context your using it. to me "separation from God" means extinction since God is omnipresent.. I will just repeat my answer..
@JoanDArc77 5th force... Calvinism does not teach what you suggest. people are spiritually DEAD, God grants them a new heart of flesh and with their new heart given by God they WILLINGLY follow God. AND even IF God does "force" people to repent as you suggest. Does God not have the right to do what HE wants to do with HIS CREATION, you know does the potter have rights? What I always see from Arminians is a HATRED for God's total 100% soverignity to do as He wants with HIS CREATION.
3rd, Calvinism is based totally on manipulated prooftexts, fallacious arguments, and word games. Your attempt to redefine "Irresistible" as not meaning "force" is a perfect example. And the bible refers to salvation as a gift, but something forced on some but denied to others could never be termed as a gift. Even a dictionary can be used to refute Calvinism. Most of these debates center around Calvinist's vain efforts to make their aberrant doctrines appear biblical, putting lipstick on a pig.
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd, Calvinism is based totally on manipulated prooftexts,.... ANSWER: I'm guessing that that you either (1) Never really honestly studied Calvinism from someone who actually knows it and teaches it... OR (2) if you did you misunderstood what was taught to you. It was NOT ME in our little chats that was ADDING words to scriptures to suit my theology, it was YOU...
3rd, you add divine force and subtract free will from ALL the verses you cite, as I've already shown. 4th, I understand Calvinism better than most Calvinists. So define the exact type you are, a Moderate, Hyper, or Strict Calvinist? Are you a 5-pointer, Amyraldian, or some other number? Do you believe God decreed Adam's fall, permitted it, or that God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall thru his own self-determination? Are you associated with Particularism or Pajonism? Or a denomination?
@JoanDArc77 Please answer my Question: Question about God's 100% absolute sovereignty. Is GOD ALLOWED TO USE HIS DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY TO REJECT / DENY PEOPLE REPENTANCE, TO GIVE THEM JUSTICE INSTEAD OF MERCY?
@rbmath 6th, all God's promises are conditional, based on obedience and faith eg, He promised the 1st generation of israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into Canaan but instead they were destroyed in the wilderness. Man can set aside God's promises and His will by disobedience and unbelief. Go thru the bible starting at Gen3 and make a list of how many times someone set aside God's declared will for them, which resulted in withdrawing His blessings and causing wrath instead.
@JoanDArc77 6th.. So you believe in works salvation? Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Christians are under the New Covenant not the Old.. Jer_31:31, Luk_22:20, 1Co_11:25, 2Co_3:6, Heb_8:8, Heb_8:13, Heb_9:15, Heb_12:24,
4th, both the Old and New Covenants are based on faith and obedience, as are all God's promises. Paul makes this abundantly clear in 1Cor10 and Heb3and4 by citing the Israelite's disobedience which led to their destruction and warning NT believers that the same will happen to them if guilty of the same offenses. 5th, quoting Eph2:8-9 and leaving out vs10 which speaks of works is very revealing. You're totally gnorant about the relationship between justification and sanctification (works).
@JoanDArc77 RE:4th. This not what I asked. Do YOU believe in works salvation? Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Let me be clarify my views on works. 1) ANTINOMIANISM is HERETICAL. Jude 4. (2) We are NOT saved BECAUSE OF good works, We are saved FOR good works. Eph 2:10..for good works, which God prepared. Php 1:6.. that He who began a good work in you will perfect it... Php 2:12-13..God who is at work in you, both to will and to work...
4th, As Eph2:8-10 says, we are not saved by works but by faith, however we are saved unto good works which God has predestined for us and those works are therefore critical to salvation. Read the verses I cited, 1Cor10 and Heb3&4, the Israelites failed to do the works God had predestined for them and they were destroyed as a result. Justifiction by faith AND Sanctification by works are BOTH required for salvation. Open your eyes and wake up, Calvinism has blinded you to the scriptures.
6th, all God's promises are conditional, based on obedience and faith eg, He promised the 1st generation of israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into Canaan but instead they were destroyed in the wilderness. Man can set aside God's promises and His will for them by disobedience and unbelief. Go thru the bible starting at Gen3 and make a list of how many times someone set aside God's declared will for them, which resulted in withdrawing His blessings and causing wrath instead.
@JoanDArc77.. Question please. Is Jesus the perfect savior? Can Jesus perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father found in John 6:37-40? What is The Lord's "Batting average" in saving men and women? The Arminian is never consistent with scriptures, they place their own ideas into scriptures...
@rbmath 1st, Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind (100%) but God offers salvation to them as a gift, He doesn't force it on anyone nor does He withhold it. Man can choose to decline it and die in his sins. 2nd, regarding Jn6:37, the Father gives them to Christ by a very specific process: He convicts them of sin and calls them to repentance, those who respond are then given to Christ for regeneration (born again) and of course Christ will reject no one who comes to Him through that process
@JoanDArc77. IF as say, "Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind" than WHY do people go to hell? God would be punishing people twice for there sins, once in Christ and them in hell, Even rejecting Christ would be that would be paid for by Christ. Calvinism does NOT teach that God "forces" people to be saved, spiritually DEAD people cannot be forced Eph 2:1, God removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh so they would be willing to follow Christ.
@rbmath 1st, you've obviously never actually read the bible inductively but started with Calvinism then tried to make the bible fit the system. Free will is found on every page of the bible starting in the garden of Eden when Adam chose to disobey a command which carried the death penalty. 2nd, being spiritually dead means separation from God, not the loss of the will. The prodigal's father said "this my son who was dead is alive again" Though he was dead, he chose to return to his father.
@JoanDArc77 RE: 1st, .. NO.. I was in a cult for 12 years and never heard of Calvinism, than I studied on my own for about 10 during the time time of my my own studies I believe God lead me to good webpage which turned out to be teaching about Calvinism. RE: Free will.. The only "freewill" man has is to freely follow his sinful nature, Adam and Eve are a different issue. Once they fell the passed on their fallen nature to their children. Use your OWN WILL apart from God to free yourself from sin
@rbmath 1st, what the bible teaches is 1) Man is born separated from God and won't seek Him on his own, nor can he repair the relationship even if he did 2)God has supplied a way back to Himself thru Christ 3) God intervenes in each person's life, convicts them of their sin and need for a Savior and 4) calls them to repentance 5) those who CHOOSE to respond are then given to Christ for regeneration. There are no bible verses that contradict this, it's the true gospel, all others are false.
@JoanDArc77 Without scriptures given in proper context your reasoning really means nothing... Your views lead to Christ being less than perfect savior. Your views means, Its really up to man to have the final say in his own salvation which go against Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. YOUR REASONING of this scripture is.. IT DOES DEPEND ON MAN WHO WILLS AND NOT ON GOD WHO HAS MERCY SINCE MAN CAN REJECT GOD'S MERCY...
@rbmath 1st, the bible depicts Christ as being not only a perfect Savior but 100% successful in redeeming mankind from the effects of Adam's sin, Satan was totally defeated by the cross. But the perfect salvation He purchased isn't forced on anyone, they can choose to reject it. If someone offers you a perfect gift and you refuse it, that doesn't make the gift any less perfect, the rejection only affects you. These arguments to desperately prop up Calvinism's pillars are ludicrous.
2nd, Rom9:16 is just another twisted prooftext. Salvation doesn't spring from man's will but from God's, and man can't save himself. God supplies a way back thru Christ, convicts man of his sin, and calls him to repentance, but that doesn't negate the fact that man can refuse to come. Salvation doesn't ORIGINATE with man's will but with God however, it ENDS with it as he makes a decision to receive it or not. Man can choose to reject God's mercy and instead die in his sins.
2nd, whatever cult you were in can't be worse than Calvinism. You've jumped from the frying pan into a blaziing inferno that will destroy you if you don't get out. 3rd, you're setting aside God's word and the truth when you try to deny that the parable of the prodigal defines spiritual death as willful separation from God and that it can be remedied by choosing to turn from one's own ways back to God for new life. The prodigal CHOSE to return, it does NOT say he was forced to, you ADDED that.
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd.. NO... I have yet to see your answer to my Question about God's 100% absolute sovereignty. Is GOD ALLOWED TO USE HIS DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY TO REJECT / DENY PEOPLE REPENTANCE, TO GIVE THEM JUSTICE INSTEAD OF MERCY?
@JoanDArc77. IF as say, "Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind" than WHY do people go to hell? God would be punishing people twice for there sins, once in Christ and them in hell, Even rejecting Christ would be that would be paid for by Christ. Calvinism does NOT teach that God "forces" people to be saved, spiritually DEAD people cannot be forced Eph 2:1, God removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh so they would be willing to follow Christ.
@JoanDArc77 ..EXACTLY WHERE in the Divinely Inspired scriptures does it say this. ""He convicts them of sin and calls them to repentance, those who respond are then given to Christ for regeneration"" you seem to add your own ideas to John 6:37-40...
It was said in the Video. 3:13-3:17.. "Esau was simply rejected because he was born with Adam's fallen nature"... SO WAS JACOB BORN WITH ADAM'S FALLEN NATURE. we are ALL BORN WITH ADAM'S FALLEN NATURE...
Can anyone please post a scripture that actually says. "WHOSOEVER WILL" because I cannot find it.. What I found is "whoever believes" "Pas ho pisteuwn" "everyone who believes" see watch?v=tUVeorKy0HM .. it does NOT say HOW they come to believe. God grants repentance 2Tim 2:25, Act 13:48.. appointed to eternal life.. Acts 11:18.. God has granted repentance..The "everyone/whoever" is LIMITED to "BELIEVES"
@rbmath 3rd God does grant repentance, He also convicts all men of sin and draws them all to Christ but the sad fact is they can choose to reject His call. 4th, you don't see "whosoever wills' because you don't want to but it's implied in all verses that speak of those who believe. None of them says that God forces anyone to believe or that He denies salvation to anyone, including Acts13:48, those appointed to eternal life are those who choose to believe and repent. You add force to such verses
Rom 9:1-5 Paul is speaking about individual salvation, Rom 9:8 again Paul is speaking about individual salvation, "children of promise." V 11 is about individuals NOT NATIONS, V 16 is about individuals NOT NATIONS. Arminians fail to follow the simple logic of the scriptures. Paul does not jump from individual salvation to nations than back to individual salvation.
@rbmath 1st, Rom9 is ENTIRELY about nations, the subject is Paul's sorrow that Israel was rejected because of the rejection of their own Messiah but he repeatedly states that salvation has always been open to both groups by repentance and faith. 2nd, Jacob and Esau aren't merely nations but they're types too. Jacob is a type of Christ who God accepts and Esau is a type of Adam who God rejects. Though rejected as the 1st born, nothing prevented Esau from submitting to God's will and being saved.
The more honest calvanists are those of westborough baptist church. They represent the calvanist position beter than others who want to detach themselves from"... hates fags".
@tiredoldcrow Most Calvinists, even the hypers, are content to say that God predestines people for either damnation or salvation but His reasons are unknown. The Westboroughs have simply taken the concept into the social arena and propose to identify not only those God has condemned but why He has done so. What they fail to grasp is that everyone is condemned in Adam and anyone who doesn't repent and turn to Christ will be lost no matter what their particular sins are, Their "gospel" is false.
I lean toward the understanding presented in the video. Problem is that various beliefs are vaguely enough presented that in some ways I'm inclined to concede that Calvinists have the right idea. It's really tricky to understand the concept but we need to be careful to not abandon the literal Biblical truths in any attempt to explain how 'predestination' and 'human moral responsibility/faith' work.
Both sides often oversimplify. It's a tricky issue
@doug The issues involved aren't tricky unless the applicable verses are ignored, changed, or willfuly set aside as Calvinists do. The bible clearly states that all men are born under Adam's condemnation but God has provided them a way back to Himself thru Christ, calls them ALL to repentance, and desires that NONE of them perish. Calvinism instead promotes a limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which is condemned in Gal1:7-9. God creates no one merely for destruction.
@JoanDArc77 Yes, and that presentation of the belief I certainly disagree with. The Bible is clear about two things: God is omniscient and omnipotent, and humans have moral responsibility, i.e. freedom of choice.
I think many Calvinists don't earnestly think that God arbitrarily chooses to save some people and prepares others explicitly for hell, and I think many 'free will'-ers don't earnestly think God is impotent.
It's such a difficult thing to explain without speculating a lot.. :)
@doug God granting genuine free will to man, enabling him to choose to have a relationship with Him or not, doesn't make God "impotent" in the slightest. First, He's the one who gives them the ability to choose and second, He remains the sovereign judge of their decision and they can't escape the consequences of remaining in sin and rejecting His provision for their salvation. Also, if a Calvinist doesn't believe God's sovereignty is the basis for salvation or damnation, they're not a Calvinist.
How do you redefine "predestination?" It means what it says. As does election. Does the president "elect" himself? Can an orphan "adopt" himself? Looks like a lot of folks just need a dictionary.
@Ebeneez Biblical terms can't be defined with a secular dictionary, the bible interprets itself and also provides the definitions of terms. God predestines all people to be conformed to the image of Christ but they must choose to submit to His will and receive Christ in order for it to happen. God offers salvation to mankind as a gift and it can therefore be refused. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone and neither does He withhold it, He calls all people to repentance.
@JoanDArc77 uhmm....so what language am I supposed to know to understand the English Bible? I also think that you confuse salvation with relationship. The Corinthians were elect but they were not having a very close relationship with God. Secularists ask,"how could a loving God allow so much suffering?" By the same token those who believe they have chosen God and not He They, say,"how could a loving God only choose the elect." The Bible is clear: according to His GOOD PLEASURE. Good enough 4 me
Rom 8:29-30 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
If they are going to use a single passage to make their point at least use the entire passage:Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses,I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,and whom he will he hardeneth,Pharo is being used as an example,along w/Jacob Esau.Jn 6:65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
@Ebeneezer If you're going to try to use Rom9:15 to make your own point you have to at least go back to the Old Testament to see what Paul is referring to. It's in the context of the disobedience of the Israelites and Moses' prayer for them. God has mercy and compassion on those who obey Him while He hardens and destroys those who are disobedient and rebellious. It's not saying what you're trying to force into the text ie, that God capriciously chooses some for mercy and others for destruction
Fact is the twisting and "stretching" is done by those who cannot prove their point but by saying that those who believe in the sovereignty of God, "have a limited Bible knowledge." The twisting and stretching is done by saying that predestination, election, adoption etc. doesn't really mean what it says. Search predestination and election in a Bible database then do the same with free will. See there is no need to twist and stretch free will cause it aint even in there
@Ebeneezer God predestines, elects, calls, grants repentance, convicts, draws, etc but that doesn't negate the fact that people can refuse His call and instead choose to die in their sins. Free will is found throughout the bible starting with Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden and it's found on every page of the bible in one form or another. To deny it is like trying to deny that air exists, it's all around you and you use it yourself. What else but free will accounts for your own posts?
@JoanDArc77 Was Paul using his freewill when he was converted? What would appear to be freewill is often explained as Gods sovereignty, Pharaoh for example. He certainly thought he was using freewill. Adams disobedience has nothing to do with our salvation but everything to do with our depravity. It is Christs obedience that saves the elect "whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world." If you want to believe that you had spiritual life rather than death as the Bible says fine.
@JoanDArc77 Who is it that is able to keep who from Falling? Once you get that answered ,you might relize your free will is as weak and helpless as Adams was in the beginning.
@watershoe Who is told to keep themselves in the love of God? Who is told to put on the armor of God? Who is told to take up their cross and follow Christ? Who is told if they “do these things” they will make their calling and election sure? When you can answer THESE questions it will be a cure for the disease of building a theology around a portion of God’s word and ignoring man’s personal responsibility in the salvation process, otherwise you'll be like the man in the Talents parable.
@JoanDArc77 I thought salvation was not of ourselves!Yet now i got some responcibility.
I think you have time world savation and eternal salvation molded together.We do alot of things in our time world salvation to not fail.We do nothing for our eternal salvation to go to heaven.In our time world salvation if we are obedient we receive blessing if disobedient chastizement,And we my suffer on this side for our sins ,but in the end Gods elect cannot be condemned with the world.
@watershoe "if we are obedient we receive blessing if disobedient chastizement"
You're living in a little fantasy world. 1st, you didn't answer any of my questions - who puts on the armor, takes up the cross, keeps themselves in the love of God, and makes their calling and election sure? 2nd, read Heb3&4 and 1Cor10 about the 1st generation of Israelties. Paul says they were all SAVED but their disobedience resulted in destruction and loss of salvation, not just a loss of temporal blessings.
@watershoe "You didn't answer my question.Who keeps who from falling?"
And I asked YOU 1) who is told to keep themselves in the love of God? 2) who is told to put on the armor of God? 3) who is told to take up their cross and follow Christ? 4)who is told if they “do these things” they will make their calling and election sure? Calvinists take verses out of context trying to support a monergistic salvation when the bible indicates it's synergistic. You reject the bible & the Truth.
Jesus said in Jn. 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Another deception is that if you believe in election/predestination you are a Calvinist. I am so sick of hearing that Calvinists are following a man. I reject much of Calvins teaching. Just because I believe in the God centered election and another believes in the man centered Armenianism doesn't mean that I am Calvinist or they an Amenian. Its ridiculous
@Ebeneezer 1st, Calvin got his doctrines from a demon, so you're actually following Satan not a man. 2nd, Jn6:65 merely states that God must call man, he can't and won't come to Christ on his own, but that doesn't change the fact that man can choose to reject the call and instead die in his sins. 3rd, Christ's sacrifice paid for the sins of the entire world, God convicts all men of their sins, calls them all to repentance, and desires that none of them perish.
@JoanDArc77 Eph. 1 is clear v. 9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: " now that's not my will but God's. v.11"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" again His will v.14 "..until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." I would mind who I call demon.
@JoanDArc77 You think you were good enough to choose God. I dont. I believe Gods Word: Rm. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing. Guess Paul could have learned a thing or 2 from you. Rm. 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. I guess you are the exception. Rm 6:13 yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; I WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD!
@JoanDArc77 you are taking from and adding to scripture. I actually put the text from Jn. 6:65 in my post and you say it doesn't say what it says. First he predestined then He called Rm. 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." R u in there? No, He, He, He Jn. 6:63-65 is plain: His words are spirit and only God can make you seek and understand because you are spiritually dead
@Ebeneezer It's you forcing false doctrines between the lines of scripture. God indeed predestines, chooses, justifies, convicts, draws, etc, but none of that negates the fact that man can reject it all and choose to die in his sins. And although Paul's conversion was more dramatic than most, his free will was still involved. Acts26:19 says he chose to obey the heavenly vision. God interrupts everyone's life in some way and calls them to repentance but they must choose to obey it to be saved.
Once again, Sarah's exegesis is flawless pointing out the flawed Calvinist concept of predestination. God is interested in saving men, not creating them and then destroying them in order "to glorify himself" as the Calvinists teach. And Jesus said, "I didn't come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" which completely contradicts everything that Calvinism proclaims.
@JackMWolfe This is the very similar argument atheists make: "How could a loving God allow so much suffering and misery in the world." Eph. 1:5,11 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” I Cor. 3:19 "The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God."
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mgreer511002 4 days ago
@mgreer511002 Romans 9, 10, and 11 are about more than just Israel. They, and for that matter, the entire book of Romans deals with not only Israel's but the Gentile's past, present, and future. Did you miss Rom3:9 where Paul says "Is God merely the God of Jews? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also" I suggest that before giving gratuitous theology lessons to make wise the simple, first make sure you know what the bible actually teaches.
JoanDArc77 4 days ago
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mgreer511002 3 days ago
@mgreer511002 LOL, so far all you've done is make claims to having special knowledge like some kind of modern day gnostic, but the only thing you offerred to back up your bluster is a sophomoric statement about Romans that was easily disproven by a single verse from Romans itself! You obviously know nothing about Romans or anything else in the bible, just a pretentious blowhard exposed by your own glaring ignorance. Better luck next time.
JoanDArc77 3 days ago
. . . And the insults continue... we can finish this discussion in heaven before our Lord and he can straighten out right from wrong (if you think I'll be there)
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 You need to wake up my little apostate friend. Jesus said in Jn17:3 "This is eternal life:to know You, the only true and real God, and the Christ Whom You have sent" Calvinists promote a false gospel condemned with an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9 and worship a god who creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them in hell; that's NOT the God of the bible. By Christ's definition you won't be seeing anyone in heaven; Calvinism has NOTHING to do with Christianity.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
I hope we're being humble during this conversation (myself included. God opposes the proud.)
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
"in context, it's about God's selection of Israel over the nations" (how is that not unconditional election?)
How is God's predestination of Pharaoh to be "chastised" any different than election to be saved? Also, Didn't Pharoah die in the Red Sea?
What do you make of 9:16 "doesn't depend on human will but God who has mercy"
Also, the context of Romans 8:30 "whom he called he justified" demonstrates an irresistible calling and salvation.
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 1st, what you're not getting is that the only "unconditional election" in the bible is God's rejection of Adam and replacing him with the last Adam, Christ. Jacob (Israel) is a type of that sovereign election and all men were called to follow the light God then gave through Israel and now to follow the light of Christ Himself. 2nd, chastising someone is obviously different than eternally condemning them. 3rd, pharoah wasn't at the Red Sea, where did you get that idea; a movie?
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 We both agree man's faith places a role in salvation (Ephesians 2 "grace through faith").
Your understanding of Romans 8 is flawed. It begins "those whom he FOREKNEW . . he called then justified" aka . . God doesn't miss a single one of those whom he foreknew--they all get saved. This verse doesn't allow for God's elect to resist him. It also says he glorifies them, which demonstrates God doesn't lose a Christian (perseverance of [all] the saints).
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 No, it's your understanding of Rom8:30 that's flawed. 1st, it's speaking in future perfect tense ie, of future things as though they'd already occurred, no one has yet been glorified nor will they ever if they don't first receive Christ and then continue to follow Him. 2nd, nowhere does the bible say "God doesn't miss a single one of those whom he foreknew--they all get saved" but the opposite. The entire 1st generation of Israelites were foreknown yet they all died in the desert.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Accepting Christ and following him is ASSUMED in the passage (he already described justification in chapters 4-5 he doesn't need to explain it again in chapter 8) therefore he says "foreknew . called . justified . . and glorified" (duh only Jesus is glorified now, but we exist in Him) But he does not allow for some to lose their justification because the purpose of it is to "be made like Christ" (8:28-29).
I think you're assuming the unregenerate Hebrews were foreknew.
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 1st, Ex4:22-23 "Say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn. And I say to you, Let My son go, that he may serve Me" to claim God didn't foreknow them is asinine. 2nd, the NT repeatedly warns about remaining faithful or losing salvation eg, Rom11:22 "...God's gracious kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be CUT OFF" 3rd, you should indeed be humble since you're so biblically illiterate.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 I sincerely was just saying I hope both our hearts are open to correction, wasn't trying to say anything about you. I know it's hard to see authenticity over a silly format like this.
But in light of your insult (illiterate) and name calling (asinine), I'm deciding not to continue this conversation. Up until this point, I enjoyed it. As Christians we ought to be truthful and gracious, only edifying in our words.
mkwheeland87 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 Those weren't insults but the truth. I've patiently tolerated all your rather shallow, juvenile remarks and arguments since you arrived, I answered and refuted all of them clearly by God's word, but instead of acknowledging your errors you just jumped to other verses you've twisted into pretzels and then began making rude remarks ("duh only Jesus is glorified now..."). You're ignorant of God's word, what you do know of it you don't understand, and your attitude is insufferable.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@mkwheeland87 4th, Rom9:16 is saying salvation doesn't originate from man's will but from God's, not that man's will isn't involved. Without God providing a way back thru Christ, intervening by convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance, man can't be saved, but he must still choose to receive it. 5th, the fact that God justifies those He calls doesn't negate that they can reject His call, and as verses like Rom5:18 say, ALL men are justified by Christ's sacrifice, they must receive it
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
Larry King is Jewish, LOL
brydust 2 months ago
@brydust And? Jews have more questions about Christianity than most others. They can't understand how anyone could believe an executed criminal represents the wisdom of God and the power of God. But it's a paradox resolved in their own scriptures such as Isa53.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
@JoanDArc77 Jews view their Talmud as an elaboration of their Scriptures. Torah and Scripture tells Jews God's will. Talmud shows them how to put it into practice.
Talltrees84 1 month ago
@Talltrees84 Christians view Christ as the complete fulfillment of the Old Testament scriptures, as the Living Word of God. He didn't endorse any of the Jews' extra-biblical writings, laws, or man made traditions saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except by Me.
JoanDArc77 1 month ago
How does the Calvinist know that he/she is elect? The only way I know that I am saved is that Whosoever will may come and by faith have come to drink of the water of life freely along with the other willing. I have solisated this salvation and believe in a God of mercy who will accept me, otherwise I perish, but how do these reformed ones know that they were pre selected to eternal life? No illwill here.
tiredoldcrow 3 months ago
@tiredoldcrow They probably won't answer you, but the fact is that Calvinists can't really know if they're actually saved or not. Under Calvinism's teachings, no one can be certain if they were really selected by God until they die, nothing in their interpretation of God's word gives them any assurance that they're actually among the elect.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
rbmath has made a loving and biblical defense of the doctrine of predestination/irresistible grace. Remember, before you can convince one of error in their doctrine, you must first demonstrate you understand their doctrine. You have not done so Joan. You've referred to a mean ol god vs helpless people... Man is not helpless, he is wicked, and God is not the author of sin! He gives man freedom and naturally, man sins. (Rom 1:24) Listen to James White teach the Greek in Rom 9 or visit CrossTV
ONEOVER99 3 months ago
@ONEOVER99 1st, before anyone can be convinced of their error they must be willing to admit the truth about their beliefs, Calvinists can't repent unless they stop putting lipstick on the pig they embrace. Every branch of Calvinism says that God is ultimately responsible for man's fall into sin, that He irresistibly forces grace on a select few, and creates the remainder solely for destruction in order to "glorify Himself". If you deny this, then you either aren't a Calvinist or you're lying
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 said, "Calvinists can't repent unless they stop putting lipstick on the pig they embrace"??
I love you in the name of Christ Jesus but, seriously?! Are you Jesus now? Or the Holy Spirit perhaps??? Are you at the right hand of the Father interceding for man and its up to you to say who can and who can not repent?
FYI, God does EVERYTHING to His glory. Is that a problem with you? Seriously, you seem mad at God for being God. R u angry because the Potter is sovereign over you (clay)?
ONEOVER99 3 months ago
@ONEOVER99 1st, repentance is based on facing the truth about your doctrines which like your confederate, you're evading. 2nd, the controversy isn't about God's sovereignty but Calvinism's misrepresentation of how God uses it. He doesn't force salvation on anyone nor does He deny it but instead convicts all men of their sin, calls them to repentance, and those who choose to obey Him are given to Christ for regeneration. Only those who reject His grace are sovereignly judged and condemned.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
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I will ask again. Does God have Divine freedom to choose WHO to save or not to save. Does God HAVE what you defend so strongly that man has, namely the FREEWILL. the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE? It seems you deny this Divine freedom that God has....
rbmath 3 months ago
So God, before the beginning of time, said "I will make man and give him an order not to eat of a tree, yet will make him such that he can't help but dissobey, because I will it so and then I will save a minority # of them to myself, and will hate the rest into hell forever for what they are because I made it so for my good pleasure. God is love." Please tell me if and where I have missrepresented the calvanist position. What love is this?
tiredoldcrow 3 months ago
@tiredoldcrow That about sums it up. In Calvinism, God wanted Adam to fall into sin and tested him beyond his ability to resist. He routinely gives commands He doesn't really want to be obeyed and so He withholds the power to obey them, every sin is decreed and orchestrated by God. It's one of the deadlier heresies, causing believers to fall into apostasy and unbelievers to reject Christianity altogether. The Calvinist God makes Satan not look so bad, at least he doesn't claim to love mankind.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77... It seems you really hate the absolute Sovereignty of God in bring about His own glory for His own reasons. YOUR view has a weak god who tries his best but often fails to actually save people who he wants to save. Example. You pray for a lost loved one but he still dies unsaved. You say to god.
"that's alright god, I know you did your best to save him without interfering with his freewill, it seems god that people can prevent your word from coming true after all Isa 46:10" .
rbmath 3 months ago
@rbmath Actually, my God is superior in every way. He loves all people unconditionally, has provided salvation for them through Christ as a free gift, desires that none perish but that all should come to repentance, and draws them all to an eternal relationship with Him. Instead, yours irresistibly forces salvation on only a select few while commanding the vast majority to repent but then doesn't allow them to do so. The best thing is that my God actually exists, yours is a Satanic delusion.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 1)You falsely assume that Calvinist think that God hates some people. (2) You falsely assume that Calvinism teaches "forced salvation" (3) You falsely assume that the "NATURAL MAN / WOMAN" wants to repent..
rbmath 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 I have never personally seen anyone that was against the teachings of Calvinism honestly and correctly understand or show what is truly taught by Calvinism. No one is asking you to accept Calvinism, but, if your going to speak against it you should should properly understand WHAT your against. and NOT misrepresent it...
rbmath 3 months ago
@rbmath Already been answered, it's been demonstrated YOU'RE the one guilty of misrepresenting Calvinism. Calviinists know their doctrines are reprehensible, offend the conscience, and can't be reconciled with the bible so most of their time is used building a facade to make them APPEAR orthodox and when the false veneer is stripped away they claim they're being misrepresented. The truth is you believe God forces salvation on some and creates helpless people with no recourse for destruction.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: Calviinists know their doctrines are reprehensible, offend the conscience... ANSWER: and this is your defense? It looks more like a bad joke... I see your really not interested in HONESTLY dealing with these issue but wish to believe lies.....
rbmath 3 months ago
@rbmath The only joke here are your posts, but they're not funny. We'd prosecute people and put them in jail for what you say God does to helpless people, your demonic doctrines are repugnant to anyone's conscience. Even you know it and try desperately to dress them up using fallacious word games. You refuse to admit that according to your OWN doctrines certain people are irresistibly forced to be saved while others are purposely excluded and created solely to be destroyed, with no remedy,
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77..You have not answered if you really LOVE God's ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY or LOVE God enough to agree that God has absolute Divine freedom to save or not to save anyone He wishes.You know God IS the potter and we are the clay Rom 9:20-21. People who are DEAD in sin cannot be forced. People who have a heart of stone cannot be forced. The "natural man" CANNOT submit to God because he hates God. 1Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7, Eph 2:1,5. Col 2:13.
rbmath 3 months ago
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rbmath 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 One last thing... "How is your love for God's total sovereignty", IF agreeing with it intellectually, but hate it in practice, than you're only fooling yourself that you really love God first and most of all, Mat 22:36-37. it really shows that you only love your idea of God. What I see in your posts is that God does NOT have freewill to save WHOM He wants to and simple passover others. You know God IS the potter and we are the clay Rom 9:20-21. Does God have freedom to choose?
rbmath 3 months ago
@rbmath Isa46:10 is referring to God's decrees and it's therefore irrelevant to the issue of salvation which as Christ said in Mt22:8-9 is by invitation and for all people, and not by decree. The Holy Spirit convicts all men of their sin, draws them all to Christ, God desires that all of them accept His mercy and grace thru Christ, and all who repent and accept Him will be saved. That's the real gospel, your limited gospel is just as counterfeit as your God is.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77. So your really saying that If God decreed to save someone who He decreed to save from the foundation of the world Eph 1:4 and send His word out Isa 46:10 to save that person it really means NOTHING. Your also saying that ALL the people God the Father gives to Jesus will NOT be saved, which means that Jesus CAN LOSE SOME. SO what Jesus said. "I LOSE NOTHING" was a mistake or just wishful thinking on Jesus part..
rbmath 3 months ago
@rbmath The only one who's misrepresented Calvinism here is YOU, trying to deny that force is involved in IRRESISTIBLE Grace and saying your God somehow "loves" people who He created solely to cast into hell after commanding them to repent but not giving them the ability to obey it! Instead, all God's covenants and promises are conditional, based on faith and obedience. He provides salvation to all thru Christ, it's a gift offered by invitation NOT by decree, and He will honor each choice.
JoanDArc77 3 months ago
@JoanDArc77 .And exactly HOW do you know this? -----> RE: and not by decree.... Did God tell you? you should not read too much into Matthew 22:1-14. Unless you think that YOU are "worthy" too be saved? Are you that arrogant too think so? ...
rbmath 3 months ago
@fractalfires.. Does have absolute sovereignty and freedom to save or reject anyone He pleases? its really a simple question? It seems that you think God OWES people salvation. Do have a scripture to back this up. NO.. None exist...
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires.. Tell me since WHEN does God OWE people salvation? Do you God to be "fair" then WHY should an all holy God send His innocent Son to die for sinners in their place? Tell how "RIGHT" is it that God sent His INNOCENT Son to die for sinners, that He laid all their sins on His Son. You still show how much you really hate the idea of God's absolute sovereignty. Mercy is NOT owed to anyone NOR is salvation owed to anyone.
rbmath 4 months ago
@rbmath God sore an oath to Abraham. Read Galatians, and Hebrews. All of it, especially Hebrews 7, Galatians 3-5 (chapters that is).
God can't lie.
SpaceAboveSky 4 months ago
@SpaceAboveSky not sure how this disproves what I said? Paul says Gal 3:16 Christians are united with Christ and with Christ are heirs of the promise Gal 3:29. Paul explains further in Gal 4:22-31 that Christians are of the free woman. God has always known who His children are Eph 1:4. and Peter quoting Moses Act 3:22-23 teaches that anyone who rejects Christ is cut off from God.
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires. I'm not surprised that you resort to insults since you are unable to use scriptures in proper context to back up your views. Even using what "Aleister Crowley" is said to have taught. I was right you do hate the idea of God's absolute sovereignty in His creation. Your lack of understanding clearly shows and I have better things to do than chat with someone who uses insults.. May God open your mind...
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires RE:Your god is the devil... Really. A Simple Question. Is God absolutely 100% free in His Divine sovereignty to save who He wants too and reject who he wants too... Personally I NEVER seen a person such as yourself correctly understand Calvinism, they always dance around the question about God's absolute sovereignty. While they might agree with intellectually they deny it in practice.
rbmath 4 months ago
"Natural man" dead in sins,slaves to sin,hostile to God,cannot understand the things of God,cannot submit to the law of God,HAS a deceitful heart,must be born again,cannot repent nor come to Christ nor understand the scriptures on his own,no one seeks for God,has a heart of stone,cannot do “good,Faith is a gift of God,has “turned aside” from God, is a child of wrath, under the curse of the law, the message of the cross is foolishness, blinded by the god of this world, love darkness,
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires RE:Ephesians..Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, it still says DEAD. TD: G3498 nekros .. 2a) spiritually dead.. Do you deny that Adam's fallen sinful nature was passed on? RE:natural man.. NO. Divinely Inspired Scriptures teaches many things about about the "natural man." "hatred" is only one of the many reasons that I found.
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires. I did NOT misread it, your analogy assumes man has "freewill" to accept God or not. The only "freewill" man has is to freely follow is sinful nature. Scriptures do teach people are DEAD in sin. Spiritually DEAD. No scripture teach that the "natural man" wants God or will freely on his without God actually seek God...
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires It also seems that YOU really hate God and protest against His ABSOLUTE sovereignty to do as HE wants with HIS creation. You really hate the idea that God is the potter and we the clay and He is 100% free to save people or NOT to save people, Rom 9:15..
rbmath 4 months ago
@fractalfires Your little story is based on wrong assumptions. The two kids are dead BEFORE their dad placed them in the boat. Scriptures says "DEAD in sins" Eph 2:1. Their dad is NOT an ALL Holy God that all have sinned against.. You also assume that the "natural man" protests against God that he cannot obey God, when scriptures teach the "natural man" HATES God Rom 8:7, Col 1:21,
rbmath 4 months ago
Use your freewill to submit yourself to God's law. Romans 8:7
rbmath 5 months ago
Please use your "free will" to free yourself from your sins, Joh_8:34, Rom_3:23, Use your freewill to grant yourself spiritual understanding, 1Cor 2:14, Use your freewill to submit yourself to God's law. ALL APART FROM ANY HELP OF GOD... The only freewill man has to is freely follow his sinful fallen nature...
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 5th Arminians acknowledge that salvation is all of God, in his fallen condition man can't save himself. If God hadn't intervened in his hopeless condition by providing a Savior, convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance then man could never be saved. None of that sets aside the fact that when God calls him to repentance, man can choose to remain in his sins and reject the call. You're using usual false arguments typically used by Calvinists to misrepresent Arminian beliefs.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77. Than the Arminian has to say that man really does not have freewill since God HAS to act on man FIRST.. RE:reject the call.ANSWER: Scriptures says. Joh 6:37-40. ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me. The will of God the Father for Jesus IS. "I LOSE NOTHING," ."that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life" The "EVERYONE" of V 40 is the ALL of V 37 of whom Christ will lose NOTHING..They are given a new heart to follow God. Eze_11:19, Eze_36:26,
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 3rd, man's free will is restricted by physical and spiritual limitations, he can't do whatever he wants, anytime he wants, but when he's convicted of sin and called to repentance, he has the option to accept or reject it because God gives him that choice. 4th, the bible states repeatedly that the will of the Father is to lose no one as in Jn6, but the sad fact is that many reject His call and others later decide to turn back. 5th, the promises in Eze are conditional based on obedience.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE:3rd... So it man's free will is "restricted by physical and spiritual limitations" than exactly HOW is it freewill? RE: God gives him that choice... QUESTION: do you please have ANY scriptures that clearly teaches this? personally I found none.. RE: 4th,... So you believe that small finite man can stop the word all powerful God? Isa 46:10... 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';... RE:5th.. And WHERE does it say its "conditional"
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 3rd God redeemed all men by Christ's sacrifice, the reason any go to hell is because they reject Him and His substitutionary payment, the only other option is to pay for their own sins. 4th, Christ did die for the sin of rejecting HIm but like all sin, it must be repented of in order to be forgiven. 5th, Calvinism DOES teach God forces certain people to be saved unless you deny Irresistible Grace. And the corrolary is also true ie, He denies salvation to others. To deny this is futile
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd.. So it comes down once again to "is Christ the PERFECT SAVIOR" see what I already posted.. Your 3rd and 4th points assume man has "freewill" which you failed to prove..5th.. Once again you have false views. Spiritually dead means spiritually dead. it does NOT mean as falsely suggest. You need to clarify what you mean by "separation from God" in the context your using it. to me "separation from God" means extinction since God is omnipresent.. I will just repeat my answer..
rbmath 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 5th force... Calvinism does not teach what you suggest. people are spiritually DEAD, God grants them a new heart of flesh and with their new heart given by God they WILLINGLY follow God. AND even IF God does "force" people to repent as you suggest. Does God not have the right to do what HE wants to do with HIS CREATION, you know does the potter have rights? What I always see from Arminians is a HATRED for God's total 100% soverignity to do as He wants with HIS CREATION.
rbmath 5 months ago
3rd, Calvinism is based totally on manipulated prooftexts, fallacious arguments, and word games. Your attempt to redefine "Irresistible" as not meaning "force" is a perfect example. And the bible refers to salvation as a gift, but something forced on some but denied to others could never be termed as a gift. Even a dictionary can be used to refute Calvinism. Most of these debates center around Calvinist's vain efforts to make their aberrant doctrines appear biblical, putting lipstick on a pig.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd, Calvinism is based totally on manipulated prooftexts,.... ANSWER: I'm guessing that that you either (1) Never really honestly studied Calvinism from someone who actually knows it and teaches it... OR (2) if you did you misunderstood what was taught to you. It was NOT ME in our little chats that was ADDING words to scriptures to suit my theology, it was YOU...
rbmath 5 months ago
3rd, you add divine force and subtract free will from ALL the verses you cite, as I've already shown. 4th, I understand Calvinism better than most Calvinists. So define the exact type you are, a Moderate, Hyper, or Strict Calvinist? Are you a 5-pointer, Amyraldian, or some other number? Do you believe God decreed Adam's fall, permitted it, or that God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall thru his own self-determination? Are you associated with Particularism or Pajonism? Or a denomination?
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
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@JoanDArc77 Please answer my Question: Question about God's 100% absolute sovereignty. Is GOD ALLOWED TO USE HIS DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY TO REJECT / DENY PEOPLE REPENTANCE, TO GIVE THEM JUSTICE INSTEAD OF MERCY?
rbmath 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 I highly suggest this watch?v=_Pmpsq2-PAw Who Do You Think You Are? -Voddie Baucham on Romans 9
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 6th, all God's promises are conditional, based on obedience and faith eg, He promised the 1st generation of israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into Canaan but instead they were destroyed in the wilderness. Man can set aside God's promises and His will by disobedience and unbelief. Go thru the bible starting at Gen3 and make a list of how many times someone set aside God's declared will for them, which resulted in withdrawing His blessings and causing wrath instead.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 6th.. So you believe in works salvation? Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Christians are under the New Covenant not the Old.. Jer_31:31, Luk_22:20, 1Co_11:25, 2Co_3:6, Heb_8:8, Heb_8:13, Heb_9:15, Heb_12:24,
rbmath 5 months ago
4th, both the Old and New Covenants are based on faith and obedience, as are all God's promises. Paul makes this abundantly clear in 1Cor10 and Heb3and4 by citing the Israelite's disobedience which led to their destruction and warning NT believers that the same will happen to them if guilty of the same offenses. 5th, quoting Eph2:8-9 and leaving out vs10 which speaks of works is very revealing. You're totally gnorant about the relationship between justification and sanctification (works).
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE:4th. This not what I asked. Do YOU believe in works salvation? Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Let me be clarify my views on works. 1) ANTINOMIANISM is HERETICAL. Jude 4. (2) We are NOT saved BECAUSE OF good works, We are saved FOR good works. Eph 2:10..for good works, which God prepared. Php 1:6.. that He who began a good work in you will perfect it... Php 2:12-13..God who is at work in you, both to will and to work...
rbmath 5 months ago
4th, As Eph2:8-10 says, we are not saved by works but by faith, however we are saved unto good works which God has predestined for us and those works are therefore critical to salvation. Read the verses I cited, 1Cor10 and Heb3&4, the Israelites failed to do the works God had predestined for them and they were destroyed as a result. Justifiction by faith AND Sanctification by works are BOTH required for salvation. Open your eyes and wake up, Calvinism has blinded you to the scriptures.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
6th, all God's promises are conditional, based on obedience and faith eg, He promised the 1st generation of israelites to deliver them from bondage and bring them into Canaan but instead they were destroyed in the wilderness. Man can set aside God's promises and His will for them by disobedience and unbelief. Go thru the bible starting at Gen3 and make a list of how many times someone set aside God's declared will for them, which resulted in withdrawing His blessings and causing wrath instead.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77.. Question please. Is Jesus the perfect savior? Can Jesus perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father found in John 6:37-40? What is The Lord's "Batting average" in saving men and women? The Arminian is never consistent with scriptures, they place their own ideas into scriptures...
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 1st, Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind (100%) but God offers salvation to them as a gift, He doesn't force it on anyone nor does He withhold it. Man can choose to decline it and die in his sins. 2nd, regarding Jn6:37, the Father gives them to Christ by a very specific process: He convicts them of sin and calls them to repentance, those who respond are then given to Christ for regeneration (born again) and of course Christ will reject no one who comes to Him through that process
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77. IF as say, "Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind" than WHY do people go to hell? God would be punishing people twice for there sins, once in Christ and them in hell, Even rejecting Christ would be that would be paid for by Christ. Calvinism does NOT teach that God "forces" people to be saved, spiritually DEAD people cannot be forced Eph 2:1, God removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh so they would be willing to follow Christ.
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 1st, you've obviously never actually read the bible inductively but started with Calvinism then tried to make the bible fit the system. Free will is found on every page of the bible starting in the garden of Eden when Adam chose to disobey a command which carried the death penalty. 2nd, being spiritually dead means separation from God, not the loss of the will. The prodigal's father said "this my son who was dead is alive again" Though he was dead, he chose to return to his father.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: 1st, .. NO.. I was in a cult for 12 years and never heard of Calvinism, than I studied on my own for about 10 during the time time of my my own studies I believe God lead me to good webpage which turned out to be teaching about Calvinism. RE: Free will.. The only "freewill" man has is to freely follow his sinful nature, Adam and Eve are a different issue. Once they fell the passed on their fallen nature to their children. Use your OWN WILL apart from God to free yourself from sin
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 1st, what the bible teaches is 1) Man is born separated from God and won't seek Him on his own, nor can he repair the relationship even if he did 2)God has supplied a way back to Himself thru Christ 3) God intervenes in each person's life, convicts them of their sin and need for a Savior and 4) calls them to repentance 5) those who CHOOSE to respond are then given to Christ for regeneration. There are no bible verses that contradict this, it's the true gospel, all others are false.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Without scriptures given in proper context your reasoning really means nothing... Your views lead to Christ being less than perfect savior. Your views means, Its really up to man to have the final say in his own salvation which go against Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. YOUR REASONING of this scripture is.. IT DOES DEPEND ON MAN WHO WILLS AND NOT ON GOD WHO HAS MERCY SINCE MAN CAN REJECT GOD'S MERCY...
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 1st, the bible depicts Christ as being not only a perfect Savior but 100% successful in redeeming mankind from the effects of Adam's sin, Satan was totally defeated by the cross. But the perfect salvation He purchased isn't forced on anyone, they can choose to reject it. If someone offers you a perfect gift and you refuse it, that doesn't make the gift any less perfect, the rejection only affects you. These arguments to desperately prop up Calvinism's pillars are ludicrous.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
2nd, Rom9:16 is just another twisted prooftext. Salvation doesn't spring from man's will but from God's, and man can't save himself. God supplies a way back thru Christ, convicts man of his sin, and calls him to repentance, but that doesn't negate the fact that man can refuse to come. Salvation doesn't ORIGINATE with man's will but with God however, it ENDS with it as he makes a decision to receive it or not. Man can choose to reject God's mercy and instead die in his sins.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: prodigal's.. 1) it a parables, its not about freewill or not. (2) You already agreed that God has to act on man first, 2Tim 2:25.
rbmath 5 months ago
2nd, whatever cult you were in can't be worse than Calvinism. You've jumped from the frying pan into a blaziing inferno that will destroy you if you don't get out. 3rd, you're setting aside God's word and the truth when you try to deny that the parable of the prodigal defines spiritual death as willful separation from God and that it can be remedied by choosing to turn from one's own ways back to God for new life. The prodigal CHOSE to return, it does NOT say he was forced to, you ADDED that.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
@JoanDArc77 RE: 3rd.. NO... I have yet to see your answer to my Question about God's 100% absolute sovereignty. Is GOD ALLOWED TO USE HIS DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY TO REJECT / DENY PEOPLE REPENTANCE, TO GIVE THEM JUSTICE INSTEAD OF MERCY?
rbmath 5 months ago
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@JoanDArc77. IF as say, "Christ's sacrifice redeemed ALL mankind" than WHY do people go to hell? God would be punishing people twice for there sins, once in Christ and them in hell, Even rejecting Christ would be that would be paid for by Christ. Calvinism does NOT teach that God "forces" people to be saved, spiritually DEAD people cannot be forced Eph 2:1, God removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh so they would be willing to follow Christ.
rbmath 5 months ago
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@JoanDArc77 ..EXACTLY WHERE in the Divinely Inspired scriptures does it say this. ""He convicts them of sin and calls them to repentance, those who respond are then given to Christ for regeneration"" you seem to add your own ideas to John 6:37-40...
rbmath 5 months ago
It was said in the Video. 3:13-3:17.. "Esau was simply rejected because he was born with Adam's fallen nature"... SO WAS JACOB BORN WITH ADAM'S FALLEN NATURE. we are ALL BORN WITH ADAM'S FALLEN NATURE...
rbmath 5 months ago
Can anyone please post a scripture that actually says. "WHOSOEVER WILL" because I cannot find it.. What I found is "whoever believes" "Pas ho pisteuwn" "everyone who believes" see watch?v=tUVeorKy0HM .. it does NOT say HOW they come to believe. God grants repentance 2Tim 2:25, Act 13:48.. appointed to eternal life.. Acts 11:18.. God has granted repentance..The "everyone/whoever" is LIMITED to "BELIEVES"
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 3rd God does grant repentance, He also convicts all men of sin and draws them all to Christ but the sad fact is they can choose to reject His call. 4th, you don't see "whosoever wills' because you don't want to but it's implied in all verses that speak of those who believe. None of them says that God forces anyone to believe or that He denies salvation to anyone, including Acts13:48, those appointed to eternal life are those who choose to believe and repent. You add force to such verses
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
Rom 9:1-5 Paul is speaking about individual salvation, Rom 9:8 again Paul is speaking about individual salvation, "children of promise." V 11 is about individuals NOT NATIONS, V 16 is about individuals NOT NATIONS. Arminians fail to follow the simple logic of the scriptures. Paul does not jump from individual salvation to nations than back to individual salvation.
rbmath 5 months ago
@rbmath 1st, Rom9 is ENTIRELY about nations, the subject is Paul's sorrow that Israel was rejected because of the rejection of their own Messiah but he repeatedly states that salvation has always been open to both groups by repentance and faith. 2nd, Jacob and Esau aren't merely nations but they're types too. Jacob is a type of Christ who God accepts and Esau is a type of Adam who God rejects. Though rejected as the 1st born, nothing prevented Esau from submitting to God's will and being saved.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
The more honest calvanists are those of westborough baptist church. They represent the calvanist position beter than others who want to detach themselves from"... hates fags".
tiredoldcrow 5 months ago
@tiredoldcrow Most Calvinists, even the hypers, are content to say that God predestines people for either damnation or salvation but His reasons are unknown. The Westboroughs have simply taken the concept into the social arena and propose to identify not only those God has condemned but why He has done so. What they fail to grasp is that everyone is condemned in Adam and anyone who doesn't repent and turn to Christ will be lost no matter what their particular sins are, Their "gospel" is false.
JoanDArc77 5 months ago
I lean toward the understanding presented in the video. Problem is that various beliefs are vaguely enough presented that in some ways I'm inclined to concede that Calvinists have the right idea. It's really tricky to understand the concept but we need to be careful to not abandon the literal Biblical truths in any attempt to explain how 'predestination' and 'human moral responsibility/faith' work.
Both sides often oversimplify. It's a tricky issue
dougmoerhoffman 9 months ago
@doug The issues involved aren't tricky unless the applicable verses are ignored, changed, or willfuly set aside as Calvinists do. The bible clearly states that all men are born under Adam's condemnation but God has provided them a way back to Himself thru Christ, calls them ALL to repentance, and desires that NONE of them perish. Calvinism instead promotes a limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which is condemned in Gal1:7-9. God creates no one merely for destruction.
JoanDArc77 9 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Yes, and that presentation of the belief I certainly disagree with. The Bible is clear about two things: God is omniscient and omnipotent, and humans have moral responsibility, i.e. freedom of choice.
I think many Calvinists don't earnestly think that God arbitrarily chooses to save some people and prepares others explicitly for hell, and I think many 'free will'-ers don't earnestly think God is impotent.
It's such a difficult thing to explain without speculating a lot.. :)
dougmoerhoffman 9 months ago
@doug God granting genuine free will to man, enabling him to choose to have a relationship with Him or not, doesn't make God "impotent" in the slightest. First, He's the one who gives them the ability to choose and second, He remains the sovereign judge of their decision and they can't escape the consequences of remaining in sin and rejecting His provision for their salvation. Also, if a Calvinist doesn't believe God's sovereignty is the basis for salvation or damnation, they're not a Calvinist.
JoanDArc77 9 months ago
How do you redefine "predestination?" It means what it says. As does election. Does the president "elect" himself? Can an orphan "adopt" himself? Looks like a lot of folks just need a dictionary.
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@Ebeneez Biblical terms can't be defined with a secular dictionary, the bible interprets itself and also provides the definitions of terms. God predestines all people to be conformed to the image of Christ but they must choose to submit to His will and receive Christ in order for it to happen. God offers salvation to mankind as a gift and it can therefore be refused. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone and neither does He withhold it, He calls all people to repentance.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 uhmm....so what language am I supposed to know to understand the English Bible? I also think that you confuse salvation with relationship. The Corinthians were elect but they were not having a very close relationship with God. Secularists ask,"how could a loving God allow so much suffering?" By the same token those who believe they have chosen God and not He They, say,"how could a loving God only choose the elect." The Bible is clear: according to His GOOD PLEASURE. Good enough 4 me
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
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Rom 8:29-30 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
Go to gracegate [dot] org
ckmail1 1 year ago
@ckmail1 What would I find there that would be better than what's seen in the bible?
JoanDArc77 1 year ago
@JoanDArc77 Then why are you searching Calvinism on youtube?
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
If they are going to use a single passage to make their point at least use the entire passage:Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses,I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,and whom he will he hardeneth,Pharo is being used as an example,along w/Jacob Esau.Jn 6:65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@Ebeneezer If you're going to try to use Rom9:15 to make your own point you have to at least go back to the Old Testament to see what Paul is referring to. It's in the context of the disobedience of the Israelites and Moses' prayer for them. God has mercy and compassion on those who obey Him while He hardens and destroys those who are disobedient and rebellious. It's not saying what you're trying to force into the text ie, that God capriciously chooses some for mercy and others for destruction
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
Fact is the twisting and "stretching" is done by those who cannot prove their point but by saying that those who believe in the sovereignty of God, "have a limited Bible knowledge." The twisting and stretching is done by saying that predestination, election, adoption etc. doesn't really mean what it says. Search predestination and election in a Bible database then do the same with free will. See there is no need to twist and stretch free will cause it aint even in there
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@Ebeneezer God predestines, elects, calls, grants repentance, convicts, draws, etc but that doesn't negate the fact that people can refuse His call and instead choose to die in their sins. Free will is found throughout the bible starting with Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden and it's found on every page of the bible in one form or another. To deny it is like trying to deny that air exists, it's all around you and you use it yourself. What else but free will accounts for your own posts?
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Was Paul using his freewill when he was converted? What would appear to be freewill is often explained as Gods sovereignty, Pharaoh for example. He certainly thought he was using freewill. Adams disobedience has nothing to do with our salvation but everything to do with our depravity. It is Christs obedience that saves the elect "whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world." If you want to believe that you had spiritual life rather than death as the Bible says fine.
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Who is it that is able to keep who from Falling? Once you get that answered ,you might relize your free will is as weak and helpless as Adams was in the beginning.
watershoe5 11 months ago
@watershoe Who is told to keep themselves in the love of God? Who is told to put on the armor of God? Who is told to take up their cross and follow Christ? Who is told if they “do these things” they will make their calling and election sure? When you can answer THESE questions it will be a cure for the disease of building a theology around a portion of God’s word and ignoring man’s personal responsibility in the salvation process, otherwise you'll be like the man in the Talents parable.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 I thought salvation was not of ourselves!Yet now i got some responcibility.
I think you have time world savation and eternal salvation molded together.We do alot of things in our time world salvation to not fail.We do nothing for our eternal salvation to go to heaven.In our time world salvation if we are obedient we receive blessing if disobedient chastizement,And we my suffer on this side for our sins ,but in the end Gods elect cannot be condemned with the world.
watershoe5 11 months ago
@watershoe "if we are obedient we receive blessing if disobedient chastizement"
You're living in a little fantasy world. 1st, you didn't answer any of my questions - who puts on the armor, takes up the cross, keeps themselves in the love of God, and makes their calling and election sure? 2nd, read Heb3&4 and 1Cor10 about the 1st generation of Israelties. Paul says they were all SAVED but their disobedience resulted in destruction and loss of salvation, not just a loss of temporal blessings.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Fantasy world.My beginning post was not even to you,it was to ebeneezer.You didn't answer my question.Who keeps who from falling?
The loss of Salvation was their temporal salvation ,not their eternal salvation.
watershoe5 11 months ago
@watershoe "You didn't answer my question.Who keeps who from falling?"
And I asked YOU 1) who is told to keep themselves in the love of God? 2) who is told to put on the armor of God? 3) who is told to take up their cross and follow Christ? 4)who is told if they “do these things” they will make their calling and election sure? Calvinists take verses out of context trying to support a monergistic salvation when the bible indicates it's synergistic. You reject the bible & the Truth.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago 2
Jesus said in Jn. 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Another deception is that if you believe in election/predestination you are a Calvinist. I am so sick of hearing that Calvinists are following a man. I reject much of Calvins teaching. Just because I believe in the God centered election and another believes in the man centered Armenianism doesn't mean that I am Calvinist or they an Amenian. Its ridiculous
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@Ebeneezer 1st, Calvin got his doctrines from a demon, so you're actually following Satan not a man. 2nd, Jn6:65 merely states that God must call man, he can't and won't come to Christ on his own, but that doesn't change the fact that man can choose to reject the call and instead die in his sins. 3rd, Christ's sacrifice paid for the sins of the entire world, God convicts all men of their sins, calls them all to repentance, and desires that none of them perish.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 Eph. 1 is clear v. 9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: " now that's not my will but God's. v.11"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" again His will v.14 "..until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." I would mind who I call demon.
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 You think you were good enough to choose God. I dont. I believe Gods Word: Rm. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing. Guess Paul could have learned a thing or 2 from you. Rm. 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. I guess you are the exception. Rm 6:13 yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; I WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD!
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@JoanDArc77 you are taking from and adding to scripture. I actually put the text from Jn. 6:65 in my post and you say it doesn't say what it says. First he predestined then He called Rm. 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." R u in there? No, He, He, He Jn. 6:63-65 is plain: His words are spirit and only God can make you seek and understand because you are spiritually dead
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago
@Ebeneezer It's you forcing false doctrines between the lines of scripture. God indeed predestines, chooses, justifies, convicts, draws, etc, but none of that negates the fact that man can reject it all and choose to die in his sins. And although Paul's conversion was more dramatic than most, his free will was still involved. Acts26:19 says he chose to obey the heavenly vision. God interrupts everyone's life in some way and calls them to repentance but they must choose to obey it to be saved.
JoanDArc77 11 months ago
Once again, Sarah's exegesis is flawless pointing out the flawed Calvinist concept of predestination. God is interested in saving men, not creating them and then destroying them in order "to glorify himself" as the Calvinists teach. And Jesus said, "I didn't come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" which completely contradicts everything that Calvinism proclaims.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe This is the very similar argument atheists make: "How could a loving God allow so much suffering and misery in the world." Eph. 1:5,11 “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” I Cor. 3:19 "The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God."
Ebeneezerable 11 months ago