I don't know why so many immigrants want to come to America. They claim to hate Americans, hate white people, they claim all Americans are racist....so why do they want to come over here by the boatload?? It seems that it would be easier for them to stay in their supposedly wonderful country that is racism -free.
Sergey Brin and his family did not have $ 50,000 when they immigrated from the USSR) this is a sufficient argument to consider the idea of imperfect ..
Gary Becker as a Nobel prize-winning economist who revolutionized social economics, applied price theory to immigration and came to this conclusion. He is personally in favor of free immigration if we had no welfare state. It is demagoguery to suggest that this proposals are immoral. I invite you all to take a consequentialist, utilitarian approach and take a look at the economic arguments behind his proposals.
We DO sell American citizenship, by allowing people in on the basis of education, investment etc. and so we end up letting in Adolf, Joseph and Mao.
Because who needs freedom for huddled masses? Why let them breathe free, when you can make MONEY by letting in rich DICTATORS who amass money and power by keeping their people in dire poverty and despertion?
Thanks to sell-out politicians, America is now a WHORE NATION to GLOBAL TYRANNY.
@stinkpickle1000 I totally agree so you need to start a campaign to get Hollywood and the US media to stop perpetuating the ridiculous myth that this country is a paradise!
Man I wish I could sell my US citizenship! I'd sell it in a heartbeat to any rich foreigner who wants it! Then I could live somewhere with REAL history and culture!
@SovereignStatesman I can guarantee you you don't even know when or how the term came about so let me fill you in. The term was coined during the Cold War. First world being the western democracies, 2nd world being the socialist block, the rest of the world being the 3rd world. The term was not coined to reflect levels of economic development sir. Do some reading but I'm sure that would be too much to ask of you..typical of the ugly American.
Oh, I'm WAY ahead of you there-- in fact that's my forte!
American imperialism has its roots in what you call "the American Civil War," which was actually a conquest of sovereign nations; and since the other nations didn't speak up when they came for those states, there was no one left to speak up when the same plutocracy came for THEM with the World Wars, in order to expand itself like any empire. This ended up collaborating with global dictators to steal foreign resources.
@SovereignStatesman If you're waayy ahead of me then you should have known better than to imply that "third world" has anything to do with open sewers and famine, let alone history and culture. If you're educated and well versed in history then you should refer to those attributes when you post something.
@qqqq1920 you don't even live here and im sure youve gathered your info on the american health system from the media, well im letting you know as someone who IS a part of this country, all our people who are not capable of paying for doctors visits and dentistry get it for free paid by government, they also provide help with food and shelter, so long as you are poor and really need the help. also most people are of some kind of faith so your comment on the devil...just ridiculous. dont hate
@jmar505 And your information is coming from someone who hasn't had to declare bankruptcy and lose absolutely everything due to some catatrosphic disease! You live in that typical American bubble thinking that everything here is hunky dory and anyone even contemplating the idea that other countries have it better are crazy! LOL
@qqqq1920 Glad not to have you. Enjoy paying taxes to religious institutions and the government telling you what you're allowed to say. You don't seem like you should be allowed to speak for yourself anyway.
Well the issue w/ letting refugees pay for citizenship means that technically military dictators will be allowed in over people who "work for their pay". You have to assume free markets even exist in those parts of the world anyways. Not to mention prices for labor would skyrocket due to everyone wanting in so badly. Crime would rise and war would escalate in other parts of the world. Only stable regions could ever make this work. And they arent in places that have many refugees anyways.
@jasonwins7 absolutely, the reason we have to pay is gasoline, the reason most products cost more is usually because of rising gas prices. the key is finding alternative energy.
Please visit my channel for the unpopular truth about homosexuality.
A person does not need religion, hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important, qualitative differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption.
Homosexual activists, with complete support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims and martyrs; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
There are so many free market fundamentalist on youtube its very sad. Its sad people are so religious about a political philosophy that has been nothing but a complete failure and causes so much death and destruction.
Refuges are not a commodity. They are people. Once the transactions are made between countries then it is the refuges that have to live the rest of their lives in some god forsaken place. Human beings are not supposed to be treated like industrial waste - so the rich countries could pay the poor countries to take it.
@gespilk He is not saying refuges are commodities, he is saying they are not and using the absurd arguments of free market radicals to prove how insane it is you apply a market system to every situation in life.
Its a shame that Michael didn't parse out political refugess (who can request asylum in any country that is a signatory to the Universal Bill of rights), and economic migrants who wish to come and work, and pay taxes in another country.
Demanding a market based system for entry rights of the the former is to my mind perverse.
However I could see such a system working for economic migrants, with the market deciding the optimal cost to 'direct' migration to set quotas.
Other nations do it. Switzerland wants $250,000 do defect. Therefore any illegal alien should be required to stay rather than being turned back out into society without being deported. I cannot just move to Switzerland and stay without paying.
Yeah, we should sell, it & at less than $50,000 per person, but we shouldn't take in refugees or allow them to flee our nation if they became a refugee within it under dual citizenship! We could sell dual-citizenship for twice the price of regular american citizenship, excluding refugees, at less than $100,000.
Political philosopher Michael Sandel weighs the ethics of using free market
OCT-26-2010 -Principles to solve America's immigration problem. He analyzes Gary Becker's proposal to solve the immigration debate by asking if "the US should simply set a price and sell American citizenship."
hmm... i wonder how impactful this would be if they switched the word "refugee" with "global slave" ? just a curious question not trying to stir anything up...
I actually do like the 'trading refugess' idea, becuase the instiution of the market will contain the explicit assumption that refugees DO have a right to be settled SOMEWHERE, which would be a tremendous improvement over the status quo.
"Economists often assume that markets are inert, that they do not touch or taint the goods that they regulate. But this is a mistake. Markets leave their mark. Often market incentives erode or crowd out non-market incentives."
"It encourages the participants — the buyers, the sellers and also those whose asylum is being haggled over — to think of refugees as burdens to be unloaded or as revenue sources rather than as human beings in peril. What this worry shows is that markets are not mere mechanisms. They embody certain norms. They presuppose, and also promote, certain ways of valuing the goods being exchanged."
@gcho This market would presuppose that the refugees MUST be accomodated. That's an improvement. And people already think of refugees as a burden to unload. Already, no one wants them. Look at Lebanon. Jesus.
"There is something distasteful about a market in refugees, even if its for their own good, but what exactly is objectionable about it? It has something to do with the fact that a market in refugees changes our view of who refugees are and how they should be treated."
they have been selling america since the first invaders. This is insulting and cover ups the corruption of the north American game. The international community is already planning to control and move about the populations, America is just the primary target for this last century.
16242T, thanks for taking the time to watch those parts of the talk. Your open mind leads to another question.
Your earlier comments show a negative perception of Sandel's goals and methods. Phrases like "the sport of working the crowd" and "smooth-talking Harvard speak" show that you saw these as efforts to persuade you against your conscience.
After seeing more of the full video, do you find it changed your perception of Sandel's methods? Does he still seem to "work the crowd," for example?
Eirefrance, it might interest you to know that Michael Sandel is not a "free-market economist." He is a political philosophy professor who teaches his students and his audiences how to understand the consequences of proposals put forward by free-market economists, among many other things.
Eirefrance, I am aware of how he introduces the creator of the idea, but it is not clear to me what conclusion you draw from this. If you could explain your meaning in a bit more detail it would help me to better understand your point. Thanks.
0:18 "Gary Becker is a noble-prizing, FREE-MARKET ECONOMIST at the University of Chicago" Does that clear up the reference? Is that what you were asking for?
Eirefrance, thanks for answering, but I was already aware of the information given in the video. Now I seek to learn what you conclude from this information.
For example, does it seem to you that Michael Sandel is promoting this idea? Do you include him in your opening assessment of it as the idea of a "pig"? Or is it only Gary Becker you would label in this way?
Or am I misunderstanding you entirely? Please feel free to correct any mistaken ideas I might have about what you've said and why.
I honestly don't know what Sandel is promoting. It sounds, towards the end, as if he is promoting national immigration quotas, and the trade in those quotas. Becker, on the other hand, is promoting a truly fucked up system.
For instance, I recently volunteered at a fundraiser for Iraqi gays. Persecuted to point of torture/murder in their own country, a number of gay Iraqis have fled and are seeking asylum abroad. While awaiting asylum, they are stuck in Lebanon, where they are not allowed to work. They don't even have enough money to eat in the meantime (hence the fundraiser).
No group is less likely to be able to come up with the enormous sum of money needed to meet this demand than a persecuted group, who are probably denied economic access as much as anything else. Except, of course, for the already wealthy, a group that "free market economists" spend a lot of time propping up. So, there; Gary Becker, to the degree that Sandel presents his ideas, is a promoting more of the anti-human, pro-greed bullshit that has fucked us for 30 years. In short, a pig.
@eirefrance I do agree with this. If the refugees themselves have to pay, the poor ones are just fucked. Most people with 50,000 US dollars can protect themselves in their own country or otherwise take care of themselves.
18.00 a turkish and a moroccan girl wanted to prevent me to take a seat in the bus right in front of them. I needed to point to the other seats beïng completely filled untill they reluctantly tolerated me to sit. Not without calling me mean names.
18.30 the young women stepped out and in came some black women who did not speak as normal people but merely shouted to eachother the whole half hour that i still was on the bus.
Alright i can be wrong about the exact times but this truly happened.
15.00 pm. sitting in a café next to a group of moroccans i overheared their conversation about the stupid belgians ( who nevertheless offered their hospitality to them.
16.00 A young foreign girl tried twice to spit on me from a balcony. When i looked at her she put out her tongue.
17.00 Hurrying up the subway escalator and putting my hands in my pockets for preventing my possesions to fall out a latin women called "sopa" (homosexual though i'm not) from behind my back.
Isnt this what coyotes do? They bring immigrants into this country for a huge fee? Sure its illegal for them to do this now, however what the speaking was referring to sounds like a legal version of this.
The market for coyotes is created by making it illegal and creating huge bureaucratic obstacles for peaceful people to cross borders legally. If we eliminated the bad immigration laws, and instead used immigration fees to cover the costs of the INS, there would be no coyotes.
I do not think that what the coyotes, or the illegal immigrants are doing is immoral. It is only illegal because of bad laws that deserve to be broken.
Sandel's proposal sets up a straw man. It is not free market because force is used to set quotas for acceptance of refugees. The free market, though, is based on voluntary exchange. No one is forced to do anything, as long as no rights are being violated. But there is no right to immigration.
The US already sells citizenship. There is a fee. But the fee should cover only the costs of the INS, and the INS should no be subsidized by the IRS. This will result in higher fees, but not $100K.
Freesk8, you mention "Sandel's proposal," but all the details you mention are from proposals put forward by other people, such as Gary Becker.
This gives me the impression that you did not watch the full length video linked in the sidebar, only the short clip here on YouTube. Please correct me if this is a mistaken impression.
Thanks in advance for helping me to better understand how you formed your opinion on this matter.
By "Sandel's proposal" I am referring to the "international community" setting quotas for each nation and then allowing them to pay other nations for accepting them.
Yes, I only watched the video here on YouTube. I did not follow the link.
I'd seen enough to know that Sandel is no friend of liberty. I'd prefer to associate only with people who do not advocate the initiation of force against peaceful people.
Freesk8, thanks for answering my question. It's interesting and informative to follow your thought process.
If you could help me out just a little more, I'm also curious about another thing: Have you read any of the other conversations taking place in the comments here?
To answer your question, I'm not sure my views include anything that can be called a position on immigration and immigration fees. I'm not defending the idea you label "Sandel's proposal," if that's what you mean.
What I seek to know is why so many people think Sandel is promoting the ideas he describes in this talk. It's clear to me that he is not.
Why such a difference of perception?
That's the question that interests me. Thanks again for your help.
sandel is a marxist operative... (whether he knows it or not) massive illegal immigration is a tactic to overthrow this country. the communist planned this years ago and the mainstream media assists them in this treason.
sandel works for a communist institution that hates real americans so this is no surprise. fora tv is a tool for this scum. you know this fruitcake sits to pee.
16242T, thanks for explaining your views and perceptions. It's interesting to see how such impressions are formed.
When I say your concerns are addressed in Sandel's talk, it is mostly in segment 11, "Arguments For and Against Markets." Will it change your mind about the issues being discussed? Probably not, but it might give you a different impression of what Sandel is trying to do.
If you decide to watch it, I would be interested to learn your opinion about it.
Definitely less than $50,000 per person, in order to gain admission, and double whatever the price for dual-citizenship, but fleeing should only be lawful for non-refugee law-abiding citizens.
100.000 dollars for u.s. citizenship, i think you're pricing yourself out of the market. Whoever wants to be a u.s. citizin nowadays ? Your country is not exactly an example of good life quality !
That is real brilliant sell citizenship to the rich, so they can come here to further rape our economy. What happened to give me your tired, your poor, and weak that this country was founded on to help the oppressed like many of our ancestors were.
It got taken over by the descendants of those tired, weak and poor who fell in love with getting rich and decided wealth was the only standard by which to judge people.
This is absurd. It is another way for conservatives to spread their foul partisanship. It is clear that we are talking about more control in a smaller number of hands, the very thing that corrupts the democratic principles that this republic was founded on. I don't care what anyone disputing me has to say. To support such a notion is disgusting.
Not at all! I should have been clear about it. I just found the mere suggestion of it repugnant to my sensibilities. I understand the speaker is debating the issue, and from this short version I am assuming that he is neutral.
Judging by the full length talk on Fora's site, I am not sure neutral is the most accurate word for the speaker. His goal seems to be helping his audience think clearly about all the issues raised by this type of policy proposal.
Many debaters try to persuade listeners against an idea by making it seem weaker than it really is. Sandel seems to be trying to present both sides of the argument in their strongest form, and then see which one wins.
16242T, thanks for your reply. When you say "the entire portion on this subject," which portion do mean? (The Fora site numbers the segments gives each a title.)
I'm guessing you watched 07, "Recent Proposals to Use Markets to Solve Social Problems," and maybe 08, "Using the Market to Allocate Refugees Debate." Again, please correct me if I've guessed wrong.
Did you get the impression Michael Sandel advocates these ideas himself? Thanks again for helping me to understand your point of view.
The reason refugees leave their countries is war, famine, etc. Paying to not take them wouldn't end that. The money would be given to corrupt governments that would do little.
16242T, the concerns you express here are actually addressed in the full length video. I'm getting the impression you stopped after watching only this short clip. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
The paradigm has shifted and the continent is a different place. Yankee is a term that no longer applies to reality. America is no longer a colonial country. It's a term derived from a far and removed past.
This clip is among the most misleading I've ever seen. Usually I'm very impressed by Fora's knack for finding a short clip that accurately reflects the content of a longer talk. Not so in this case.
The comments here show that most viewers are getting exactly the wrong idea about Michael Sandel's goals.
The full length talk linked in the sidebar has an excellent discussion of the issues raised in these comments. I highly recommend it to anyone who cares about the value of human life.
Why the hell are people still listening to stupid free-market ideas like this and taking them seriously? We're going through a bloody recession here! I think we know a thing or two about what happens when we rely on market forces to run our lives! I say all free-market advocates need to be smashed in the head about 30 or 40 times with a golf-club - maybe that would knock some sense into them!
And Obama's Keynesian bullshit is going PHENOMENAL so far! And we haven't had anything close to a free market since the 1800s because of retards like you.
Just watched this clip, if I watched the whole thing I probably would have puked. It just pisses me off that we go through recessions again and again - all caused by out of control market forces and yet we still hear all these idiots saying that the mythical "free market" will somehow save the day. Hence my comment about the golf clubs.
Blackiron60, thanks for answering. I appreciate your taking the time to explain your point of view clearly. I hope you are willing to help me understand your thoughts a bit better.
Did it seem to you that the speaker in this video is promoting the idea that a "free market" approach would be the best way to handle immigration issues and refugees?
Did it seem to you that he would promote a "free market" approach to every social problem?
By the time they implement something like this, America would have become corrupt enough to the point where the Government is now begging for skillful workers to enter into the US.
If they did it now, it would be a different story though.
Nation-states are not business ventures and businees ventures have no business in the administration of governance.
Sound like these guys are Century 21 agents like the proposal for the Pentagon's "Office of Strategic Influence" where they planned to profit from terrorism;
Or Israel's Foriegn Ministry Department Hasabra to promote Israeli Crimes Against Humanity in occupied UNGA 181 Palestine- Profit like th e NAZI's.
Hasabase, you seem to be jumping to an early conclusion. Michael Sandel here is examining proposals put forth by other people. He did not say he is in favor of any of these proposals himself, at least not in this short excerpt from his talk.
You might want to watch the full length talk linked in the sidebar to find out what Sandel's real views are, before you lump him in with people like Gary Becker.
I don't know why so many immigrants want to come to America. They claim to hate Americans, hate white people, they claim all Americans are racist....so why do they want to come over here by the boatload?? It seems that it would be easier for them to stay in their supposedly wonderful country that is racism -free.
mochafudgetruffle 2 days ago
$50,000 trolololololololololololololololololol
Psunfire 1 month ago
Sergey Brin and his family did not have $ 50,000 when they immigrated from the USSR) this is a sufficient argument to consider the idea of imperfect ..
dvernoitverd 3 months ago
Gary Becker as a Nobel prize-winning economist who revolutionized social economics, applied price theory to immigration and came to this conclusion. He is personally in favor of free immigration if we had no welfare state. It is demagoguery to suggest that this proposals are immoral. I invite you all to take a consequentialist, utilitarian approach and take a look at the economic arguments behind his proposals.
LogicalFlawDetector 3 months ago
IT IS ALREADY FOR SALE ! e.g. OWNER OF FOX NEWS
kn9ioutom 3 months ago
We DO sell American citizenship, by allowing people in on the basis of education, investment etc. and so we end up letting in Adolf, Joseph and Mao.
Because who needs freedom for huddled masses? Why let them breathe free, when you can make MONEY by letting in rich DICTATORS who amass money and power by keeping their people in dire poverty and despertion?
Thanks to sell-out politicians, America is now a WHORE NATION to GLOBAL TYRANNY.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
no more immigration thanks. We are full please fuck off.
stinkpickle1000 3 months ago
@stinkpickle1000
The problem is that we keep out those who stand in line, and look the other way for GATE-CRASHERS.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
@stinkpickle1000 I agree so you need to start a campaign to get Hollywood and the US media from creating the myth that this country is a paradise!
uzarate 3 months ago
@stinkpickle1000 I totally agree so you need to start a campaign to get Hollywood and the US media to stop perpetuating the ridiculous myth that this country is a paradise!
uzarate 3 months ago
Man I wish I could sell my US citizenship! I'd sell it in a heartbeat to any rich foreigner who wants it! Then I could live somewhere with REAL history and culture!
uzarate 3 months ago
@uzarate
Translation: open sewers and famine.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
@SovereignStatesman If you associate history and culture with open sewers and famine then you're obviously an American!
uzarate 3 months ago
@uzarate
They don't call it the third world for nothing.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
@SovereignStatesman I can guarantee you you don't even know when or how the term came about so let me fill you in. The term was coined during the Cold War. First world being the western democracies, 2nd world being the socialist block, the rest of the world being the 3rd world. The term was not coined to reflect levels of economic development sir. Do some reading but I'm sure that would be too much to ask of you..typical of the ugly American.
uzarate 3 months ago
@uzarate
Oh, I'm WAY ahead of you there-- in fact that's my forte!
American imperialism has its roots in what you call "the American Civil War," which was actually a conquest of sovereign nations; and since the other nations didn't speak up when they came for those states, there was no one left to speak up when the same plutocracy came for THEM with the World Wars, in order to expand itself like any empire. This ended up collaborating with global dictators to steal foreign resources.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
@SovereignStatesman If you're waayy ahead of me then you should have known better than to imply that "third world" has anything to do with open sewers and famine, let alone history and culture. If you're educated and well versed in history then you should refer to those attributes when you post something.
uzarate 3 months ago
@uzarate
I didn't know you wanted to get technical.
SovereignStatesman 3 months ago
@qqqq1920 you don't even live here and im sure youve gathered your info on the american health system from the media, well im letting you know as someone who IS a part of this country, all our people who are not capable of paying for doctors visits and dentistry get it for free paid by government, they also provide help with food and shelter, so long as you are poor and really need the help. also most people are of some kind of faith so your comment on the devil...just ridiculous. dont hate
jmar505 3 months ago
@jmar505 And your information is coming from someone who hasn't had to declare bankruptcy and lose absolutely everything due to some catatrosphic disease! You live in that typical American bubble thinking that everything here is hunky dory and anyone even contemplating the idea that other countries have it better are crazy! LOL
uzarate 3 months ago
@qqqq1920 Glad not to have you. Enjoy paying taxes to religious institutions and the government telling you what you're allowed to say. You don't seem like you should be allowed to speak for yourself anyway.
kcklekas 3 months ago
I do not understand why this is in question. The american society has been selling citizenship since the very beginning.
ninetailslv100 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
in twenty years no one will want to come to this country anyway
undeadpresident 4 months ago
RICH CHINESE ARE MOVING IN DROVES TO CANADA !!!
kn9ioutom 4 months ago
MURDOCH HAS IT ! SO IT ALREADY FOR SALE !!!
kn9ioutom 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Some people want young white females to mix with non-white males.
I made a one-minute video highlighting a very tiny sample of race-mixing advertisements.
I love white people, and I am opposed to race-mixing. But I do not hate non-whites.
If you click on my name “autumntree2011” highlighted in blue below this comment, you can watch my video.
(I'm not a fan of Hitler or KKK.)
autumntree2011 4 months ago
Well the issue w/ letting refugees pay for citizenship means that technically military dictators will be allowed in over people who "work for their pay". You have to assume free markets even exist in those parts of the world anyways. Not to mention prices for labor would skyrocket due to everyone wanting in so badly. Crime would rise and war would escalate in other parts of the world. Only stable regions could ever make this work. And they arent in places that have many refugees anyways.
vidfreak56 4 months ago
travel to other country should be free. freedom for people this is all of our planet we should be free to move around..shouldnt have to pay
jasonwins7 4 months ago
@jasonwins7 absolutely, the reason we have to pay is gasoline, the reason most products cost more is usually because of rising gas prices. the key is finding alternative energy.
jmar505 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Please visit my channel for the unpopular truth about homosexuality.
A person does not need religion, hatred or any kind of phobia in order to acknowledge important, qualitative differences between heterosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption and homosexual attraction / behavior / marriage / adoption.
Homosexual activists, with complete support from the media, have succeeded at framing themselves as noble victims and martyrs; it's an effective way to push a social agenda.
lightandbeautiful 5 months ago
Thats if you want banks to control immigration as well, one of the very few things banks have no control over...yet!
bahraouik 5 months ago
There are so many free market fundamentalist on youtube its very sad. Its sad people are so religious about a political philosophy that has been nothing but a complete failure and causes so much death and destruction.
thesparitan 6 months ago
Your taking the video out of context MBA. You really should watch his class Justice, it is extemely entertaining and enlightening.
MrMaverick207 7 months ago
Pure Stupidity - would only create an extreme burden on those seeking opportunity.
mba2ceo 8 months ago
Is he stupid or what?
Refuges are not a commodity. They are people. Once the transactions are made between countries then it is the refuges that have to live the rest of their lives in some god forsaken place. Human beings are not supposed to be treated like industrial waste - so the rich countries could pay the poor countries to take it.
gespilk 8 months ago
@gespilk He is not saying refuges are commodities, he is saying they are not and using the absurd arguments of free market radicals to prove how insane it is you apply a market system to every situation in life.
thesparitan 6 months ago
Wow with refuge policies like this, the poor should just kill themselves!.
Everything is about money these days.
watchulla 9 months ago
@watchulla
We live in a Ferengi world.
gespilk 8 months ago
Its a shame that Michael didn't parse out political refugess (who can request asylum in any country that is a signatory to the Universal Bill of rights), and economic migrants who wish to come and work, and pay taxes in another country.
Demanding a market based system for entry rights of the the former is to my mind perverse.
However I could see such a system working for economic migrants, with the market deciding the optimal cost to 'direct' migration to set quotas.
Origen305 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Check out these Channels, they are the BEST on youtube.
"A Voice For Men"
"Pinegrove33"
"ManWomanMyth"
"JohnTheOther"
"christy0Misty"
"6oodfella"
"Jessica22481"
Join the rapidly growing Mens Rights Movement!
Razlo5000 10 months ago
Other nations do it. Switzerland wants $250,000 do defect. Therefore any illegal alien should be required to stay rather than being turned back out into society without being deported. I cannot just move to Switzerland and stay without paying.
usmcoth 1 year ago
Yes, but not SSN numbers of already existing people!
Copper4head 1 year ago
Michael Sandel is THE MAN! ;-) Love his Harvard lectures on justice and political philosophy.
dsmfishgal 1 year ago 14
@dsmfishgal
Yeah, we should sell, it & at less than $50,000 per person, but we shouldn't take in refugees or allow them to flee our nation if they became a refugee within it under dual citizenship! We could sell dual-citizenship for twice the price of regular american citizenship, excluding refugees, at less than $100,000.
We could sell it for $5,000, right?
Copper4head 1 year ago
@dsmfishgal Yes, America is not for losers not for freeloaders
dvernoitverd 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@dvernoitverd "Yes, America is not for losers not for freeloaders"
Given our unemployment rate, this point is debatable.
bookguy12000 2 weeks ago
How did this nationalistic moron get a Nobel?
Juefawn 1 year ago
Political philosopher Michael Sandel weighs the ethics of using free market
OCT-26-2010 -Principles to solve America's immigration problem. He analyzes Gary Becker's proposal to solve the immigration debate by asking if "the US should simply set a price and sell American citizenship."
GOVERNMENT MORTGAGE RELIEF
1-800-270-2928
88888FORCE 1 year ago
people are not good you bbbbbbbastarddddddddddddd!
leparditas 1 year ago
Hell yes. Sell em for $500,000 a piece. It will help America.
sugarkang 1 year ago
hmm... i wonder how impactful this would be if they switched the word "refugee" with "global slave" ? just a curious question not trying to stir anything up...
RasendVictory 1 year ago 2
I actually do like the 'trading refugess' idea, becuase the instiution of the market will contain the explicit assumption that refugees DO have a right to be settled SOMEWHERE, which would be a tremendous improvement over the status quo.
hymnofashes 1 year ago
So no, he does not endorse this idea.
gcho 2 years ago
"Economists often assume that markets are inert, that they do not touch or taint the goods that they regulate. But this is a mistake. Markets leave their mark. Often market incentives erode or crowd out non-market incentives."
gcho 2 years ago 2
@gcho Good wuote
thesparitan 6 months ago
@gcho
Errr....economists say no such thing.
LogicalFlawDetector 6 months ago
"It encourages the participants — the buyers, the sellers and also those whose asylum is being haggled over — to think of refugees as burdens to be unloaded or as revenue sources rather than as human beings in peril. What this worry shows is that markets are not mere mechanisms. They embody certain norms. They presuppose, and also promote, certain ways of valuing the goods being exchanged."
gcho 2 years ago 2
@gcho This market would presuppose that the refugees MUST be accomodated. That's an improvement. And people already think of refugees as a burden to unload. Already, no one wants them. Look at Lebanon. Jesus.
hymnofashes 1 year ago
FYI, he actually goes on to say...
"There is something distasteful about a market in refugees, even if its for their own good, but what exactly is objectionable about it? It has something to do with the fact that a market in refugees changes our view of who refugees are and how they should be treated."
gcho 2 years ago
So IF this was to follow logic, would CITIZENS be able to sell their CITIZENSHIP if they move to another country and become an ExPat?
billjlevin 2 years ago
I would have bought citizenship, but it will take some time to earn 100 000dollars.
aargh5 2 years ago
So if you want to come to america you have to pay back taxes first. Then we'll tax you more once your a citizen.
At this point I think immergration is great. As long as people arn't working in sweat shops or under the table.
Spread the dept around a little.
deadman12078 2 years ago
they have been selling america since the first invaders. This is insulting and cover ups the corruption of the north American game. The international community is already planning to control and move about the populations, America is just the primary target for this last century.
befranklintoo 2 years ago
16242T, thanks for taking the time to watch those parts of the talk. Your open mind leads to another question.
Your earlier comments show a negative perception of Sandel's goals and methods. Phrases like "the sport of working the crowd" and "smooth-talking Harvard speak" show that you saw these as efforts to persuade you against your conscience.
After seeing more of the full video, do you find it changed your perception of Sandel's methods? Does he still seem to "work the crowd," for example?
kevintype 2 years ago
Hell Yes!!!
edAVP1138 2 years ago
It's interesting that they don't touch on the blindingly obvious answers to these problems:
1) Don't admit immigrants
2) Don't admit refugees
Why should my tax dollars go to support these people?
Perhaps they will be forcing us to billet people from Mozambique in our houses?
carcosa 2 years ago
Refugees, too? What a fucking pig. Why am I not suprised that a "free-market economist" is willing to go lower than even I gave them credit for?
eirefrance 2 years ago
Eirefrance, it might interest you to know that Michael Sandel is not a "free-market economist." He is a political philosophy professor who teaches his students and his audiences how to understand the consequences of proposals put forward by free-market economists, among many other things.
kevintype 2 years ago
You'll notice the name Michael Sandel doesn't appear anywhere in my comment. Listen to how he introduces the creator of the idea.
eirefrance 2 years ago
Eirefrance, I am aware of how he introduces the creator of the idea, but it is not clear to me what conclusion you draw from this. If you could explain your meaning in a bit more detail it would help me to better understand your point. Thanks.
kevintype 2 years ago
0:18 "Gary Becker is a noble-prizing, FREE-MARKET ECONOMIST at the University of Chicago" Does that clear up the reference? Is that what you were asking for?
eirefrance 2 years ago
Eirefrance, thanks for answering, but I was already aware of the information given in the video. Now I seek to learn what you conclude from this information.
For example, does it seem to you that Michael Sandel is promoting this idea? Do you include him in your opening assessment of it as the idea of a "pig"? Or is it only Gary Becker you would label in this way?
Or am I misunderstanding you entirely? Please feel free to correct any mistaken ideas I might have about what you've said and why.
kevintype 2 years ago
I honestly don't know what Sandel is promoting. It sounds, towards the end, as if he is promoting national immigration quotas, and the trade in those quotas. Becker, on the other hand, is promoting a truly fucked up system.
eirefrance 2 years ago
For instance, I recently volunteered at a fundraiser for Iraqi gays. Persecuted to point of torture/murder in their own country, a number of gay Iraqis have fled and are seeking asylum abroad. While awaiting asylum, they are stuck in Lebanon, where they are not allowed to work. They don't even have enough money to eat in the meantime (hence the fundraiser).
eirefrance 2 years ago
No group is less likely to be able to come up with the enormous sum of money needed to meet this demand than a persecuted group, who are probably denied economic access as much as anything else. Except, of course, for the already wealthy, a group that "free market economists" spend a lot of time propping up. So, there; Gary Becker, to the degree that Sandel presents his ideas, is a promoting more of the anti-human, pro-greed bullshit that has fucked us for 30 years. In short, a pig.
eirefrance 2 years ago
@eirefrance I do agree with this. If the refugees themselves have to pay, the poor ones are just fucked. Most people with 50,000 US dollars can protect themselves in their own country or otherwise take care of themselves.
hymnofashes 1 year ago 2
@hymnofashes hey i dont think american citizenship every ppl wants .
TheAmbitiousgirl 1 year ago
Fuck this guy.
Human beings are NOT goods to be traded willy nilly between nations.
What an ass.
dreamdewil 2 years ago
I agree, this dude is mad
bokkenknuser 2 years ago
18.00 a turkish and a moroccan girl wanted to prevent me to take a seat in the bus right in front of them. I needed to point to the other seats beïng completely filled untill they reluctantly tolerated me to sit. Not without calling me mean names.
18.30 the young women stepped out and in came some black women who did not speak as normal people but merely shouted to eachother the whole half hour that i still was on the bus.
Alright i can be wrong about the exact times but this truly happened.
envanje 2 years ago
A day in Antwerpen,
15.00 pm. sitting in a café next to a group of moroccans i overheared their conversation about the stupid belgians ( who nevertheless offered their hospitality to them.
16.00 A young foreign girl tried twice to spit on me from a balcony. When i looked at her she put out her tongue.
17.00 Hurrying up the subway escalator and putting my hands in my pockets for preventing my possesions to fall out a latin women called "sopa" (homosexual though i'm not) from behind my back.
envanje 2 years ago
Isnt this what coyotes do? They bring immigrants into this country for a huge fee? Sure its illegal for them to do this now, however what the speaking was referring to sounds like a legal version of this.
skeletonmom 2 years ago
The market for coyotes is created by making it illegal and creating huge bureaucratic obstacles for peaceful people to cross borders legally. If we eliminated the bad immigration laws, and instead used immigration fees to cover the costs of the INS, there would be no coyotes.
I do not think that what the coyotes, or the illegal immigrants are doing is immoral. It is only illegal because of bad laws that deserve to be broken.
freesk8 2 years ago
Sandel's proposal sets up a straw man. It is not free market because force is used to set quotas for acceptance of refugees. The free market, though, is based on voluntary exchange. No one is forced to do anything, as long as no rights are being violated. But there is no right to immigration.
The US already sells citizenship. There is a fee. But the fee should cover only the costs of the INS, and the INS should no be subsidized by the IRS. This will result in higher fees, but not $100K.
freesk8 2 years ago
Freesk8, you mention "Sandel's proposal," but all the details you mention are from proposals put forward by other people, such as Gary Becker.
This gives me the impression that you did not watch the full length video linked in the sidebar, only the short clip here on YouTube. Please correct me if this is a mistaken impression.
Thanks in advance for helping me to better understand how you formed your opinion on this matter.
kevintype 2 years ago
By "Sandel's proposal" I am referring to the "international community" setting quotas for each nation and then allowing them to pay other nations for accepting them.
Yes, I only watched the video here on YouTube. I did not follow the link.
I'd seen enough to know that Sandel is no friend of liberty. I'd prefer to associate only with people who do not advocate the initiation of force against peaceful people.
freesk8 2 years ago
Freesk8, thanks for answering my question. It's interesting and informative to follow your thought process.
If you could help me out just a little more, I'm also curious about another thing: Have you read any of the other conversations taking place in the comments here?
kevintype 2 years ago
I'd only read about a quarter of the comments before making my comment.
I was reacting to Sandel's statements in the video, not to what others may have written about them.
What is your position on immigration and immigration fees?
freesk8 2 years ago
Freesk8, thanks for answering.
To answer your question, I'm not sure my views include anything that can be called a position on immigration and immigration fees. I'm not defending the idea you label "Sandel's proposal," if that's what you mean.
What I seek to know is why so many people think Sandel is promoting the ideas he describes in this talk. It's clear to me that he is not.
Why such a difference of perception?
That's the question that interests me. Thanks again for your help.
kevintype 2 years ago
sandel is a marxist operative... (whether he knows it or not) massive illegal immigration is a tactic to overthrow this country. the communist planned this years ago and the mainstream media assists them in this treason.
sandel works for a communist institution that hates real americans so this is no surprise. fora tv is a tool for this scum. you know this fruitcake sits to pee.
DennyMclain2008 2 years ago
16242T, thanks for explaining your views and perceptions. It's interesting to see how such impressions are formed.
When I say your concerns are addressed in Sandel's talk, it is mostly in segment 11, "Arguments For and Against Markets." Will it change your mind about the issues being discussed? Probably not, but it might give you a different impression of what Sandel is trying to do.
If you decide to watch it, I would be interested to learn your opinion about it.
kevintype 2 years ago
Heh, so we'll just end up with a flood of the wealthy from states that undergo social revolutions. Lovely, patriotism with a price tag.
Smaug84 2 years ago
I'll sell mine, how much you think I can get?
therealmoseph 2 years ago
@therealmoseph lol 1$?>
TheAmbitiousgirl 1 year ago
@TheAmbitiousgirl
Definitely less than $50,000 per person, in order to gain admission, and double whatever the price for dual-citizenship, but fleeing should only be lawful for non-refugee law-abiding citizens.
Copper4head 1 year ago
100.000 dollars for u.s. citizenship, i think you're pricing yourself out of the market. Whoever wants to be a u.s. citizin nowadays ? Your country is not exactly an example of good life quality !
envanje 2 years ago
Thousands of illegal and legal immigrants each year seem to feel differently...
freesk8 2 years ago
That is real brilliant sell citizenship to the rich, so they can come here to further rape our economy. What happened to give me your tired, your poor, and weak that this country was founded on to help the oppressed like many of our ancestors were.
voltagerocks 2 years ago
It got taken over by the descendants of those tired, weak and poor who fell in love with getting rich and decided wealth was the only standard by which to judge people.
eirefrance 2 years ago
This is absurd. It is another way for conservatives to spread their foul partisanship. It is clear that we are talking about more control in a smaller number of hands, the very thing that corrupts the democratic principles that this republic was founded on. I don't care what anyone disputing me has to say. To support such a notion is disgusting.
chopin65 2 years ago
Chopin65, is it your impression that the speaker in this video supports the notions he is explains here?
kevintype 2 years ago
Not at all! I should have been clear about it. I just found the mere suggestion of it repugnant to my sensibilities. I understand the speaker is debating the issue, and from this short version I am assuming that he is neutral.
chopin65 2 years ago
Chopin65, thanks for clarifying what you meant.
Judging by the full length talk on Fora's site, I am not sure neutral is the most accurate word for the speaker. His goal seems to be helping his audience think clearly about all the issues raised by this type of policy proposal.
Many debaters try to persuade listeners against an idea by making it seem weaker than it really is. Sandel seems to be trying to present both sides of the argument in their strongest form, and then see which one wins.
kevintype 2 years ago
16242T, thanks for your reply. When you say "the entire portion on this subject," which portion do mean? (The Fora site numbers the segments gives each a title.)
I'm guessing you watched 07, "Recent Proposals to Use Markets to Solve Social Problems," and maybe 08, "Using the Market to Allocate Refugees Debate." Again, please correct me if I've guessed wrong.
Did you get the impression Michael Sandel advocates these ideas himself? Thanks again for helping me to understand your point of view.
kevintype 2 years ago
The reason refugees leave their countries is war, famine, etc. Paying to not take them wouldn't end that. The money would be given to corrupt governments that would do little.
dtothediesel 2 years ago
16242T, the concerns you express here are actually addressed in the full length video. I'm getting the impression you stopped after watching only this short clip. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
kevintype 2 years ago
reminds me of the pamphlet of eating poor people's babies to solve housing problems and food shortages. Satire.
Jezuzac 2 years ago
Jezuzan, it's not satire. It's part of a larger discussion that needs to seen in its full context to be understood properly.
kevintype 2 years ago
This is not the Onion?
McArrowni 2 years ago
We already do sell American citizenship.
1. Citizenship by investing at least 500,000 and creating 10 jobs.
2. For around 20,000 on the black market, citizenship by marriage.
If you really want to weed out all the useless from the bright, start imposing a fee on born American citizens that's payable by say 30 years of age.
madhoyden 2 years ago 2
it is the responsibility of the new comer to support himself there should be no nanny-state
ferrozm 2 years ago
Thats teh best thing I've ever read
fdny9682 2 years ago
type in "immortal technique 3rd world"
fuck this guy!!
lethalintention 2 years ago
Immortal Technique is a retarded asshole.
ZamatoElite 2 years ago
What a load of BS.
1) US imigration already proposed charging $5k application fee having the effect of weading out lower income.
2) Under the Geneva Convention It is the Refugees right to choose which country to claim ayslim
yearight1970 2 years ago
I want my rating back
anthonzi 2 years ago
What's wrong is that there are in fact refugees. By definition they are fleeing from something.
The global challenge is ending the brutality which forces people to seek refuge in the first place..
wmg111 2 years ago
they stole the land from the native americans GO HOME YANKY!!
lethalintention 2 years ago
The paradigm has shifted and the continent is a different place. Yankee is a term that no longer applies to reality. America is no longer a colonial country. It's a term derived from a far and removed past.
RyRyVids 2 years ago
This clip is among the most misleading I've ever seen. Usually I'm very impressed by Fora's knack for finding a short clip that accurately reflects the content of a longer talk. Not so in this case.
The comments here show that most viewers are getting exactly the wrong idea about Michael Sandel's goals.
The full length talk linked in the sidebar has an excellent discussion of the issues raised in these comments. I highly recommend it to anyone who cares about the value of human life.
kevintype 2 years ago
fuck it.....just let each country have their own revolution as we did 232 years ago...
Our special forces (Green Berets) can assist in the tipping of revolutions...
UnderseaCaveman 2 years ago
Why the hell are people still listening to stupid free-market ideas like this and taking them seriously? We're going through a bloody recession here! I think we know a thing or two about what happens when we rely on market forces to run our lives! I say all free-market advocates need to be smashed in the head about 30 or 40 times with a golf-club - maybe that would knock some sense into them!
blackiron60 2 years ago
And Obama's Keynesian bullshit is going PHENOMENAL so far! And we haven't had anything close to a free market since the 1800s because of retards like you.
ZamatoElite 2 years ago
Blackiron60, if you don't mind my asking, did you watch the full length video at Fora, or only the short clip here on YouTube?
I'm hoping to get a more complete understanding of how your opinion was formed.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
kevintype 2 years ago
Just watched this clip, if I watched the whole thing I probably would have puked. It just pisses me off that we go through recessions again and again - all caused by out of control market forces and yet we still hear all these idiots saying that the mythical "free market" will somehow save the day. Hence my comment about the golf clubs.
blackiron60 2 years ago
Blackiron60, thanks for answering. I appreciate your taking the time to explain your point of view clearly. I hope you are willing to help me understand your thoughts a bit better.
Did it seem to you that the speaker in this video is promoting the idea that a "free market" approach would be the best way to handle immigration issues and refugees?
Did it seem to you that he would promote a "free market" approach to every social problem?
Thanks again for your help.
kevintype 2 years ago
This is a tariff, nothing more.
An entrance fee into the American market would cost the US far more than the revenue the U.S. would make.
danbblau 2 years ago
usa already sells its citizenship --- duhh
yavanna1969 2 years ago
By the time they implement something like this, America would have become corrupt enough to the point where the Government is now begging for skillful workers to enter into the US.
If they did it now, it would be a different story though.
zetasan 2 years ago
bushit
yzz1979 2 years ago
ahahahahaha
this serious???
What nonsense
junkfood66 2 years ago
Any questions on why the economy is so fucked up?
Nation-states are not business ventures and businees ventures have no business in the administration of governance.
Sound like these guys are Century 21 agents like the proposal for the Pentagon's "Office of Strategic Influence" where they planned to profit from terrorism;
Or Israel's Foriegn Ministry Department Hasabra to promote Israeli Crimes Against Humanity in occupied UNGA 181 Palestine- Profit like th e NAZI's.
vistavision2 2 years ago
I think what he is talking about is pretty interesting, but obviously would require a lot of thought.
NixuzE 2 years ago
Maybe its a good way for countries to Dump Dollars.
kentafication 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
no - you should PAY ppl to come to the US. THough I wouldn't go there cuz it's full of their gunz and fat ppl and bad healthcare
yuriythebest 2 years ago
That's because we can afford to be fat -- even during financial crisis -- not like shit poor country.
HymerSchmidt 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Sick fucks like this guy and becker are responsible for the current economic crisis.
hasabaseaz2 2 years ago
Hasabase, you seem to be jumping to an early conclusion. Michael Sandel here is examining proposals put forth by other people. He did not say he is in favor of any of these proposals himself, at least not in this short excerpt from his talk.
You might want to watch the full length talk linked in the sidebar to find out what Sandel's real views are, before you lump him in with people like Gary Becker.
kevintype 2 years ago 10