The 9th World Open Karate Tournament 2007-E.Tanaka VS Soukup

[snkhuong]

i don't know why but some moves look similar to muay thai's

[ax3ninja]

wait, they arent allowed to hit in the head?

[montefuscolo]

kicks only

[VegetaJr3]

bunch of weaklings they have no fighting skills no speed no strength at all...

I cannot believe thats how they fight!!

[ax3ninja]

it is a bit scrappy. i can see a decent taekwon-do practioner going in there and breaking some bones with a side kick or back kick. but im interested to see what the rules are

[oiram48]

U dont know the rules and your talking shit

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja Sorry sir, because of low kicks, Tae Kwon Do guys have tried in the past and could not pull it off. Also, Kyokushin fighters concentrate heavily on body conditioning. Try sparring a decent Sandan who competes and you'll feel rock hard midsection that won't give in to a single kick. There's a video of Russian Kyokushin fighters sparring Korean TaeKwonDo guys somewhere on youtube. Look for it and you'll see low kicks make a huge difference.

[ax3ninja]

i understand what you're saying. though i feel there are some modern misconceptions with taekwon-do (which is quite rightly placed, because a good proportion of 'taekwon-do' schools are complete phonies). the thing is that taekwon-do was largely taken from shotokan karate, the founder was a 2nd dan in shotokan. ive trained wth him and one of the guys that traveled with him spreading taekwon-do i its early years (master cariati). he still trains himself and his students in conditioning and...

[ax3ninja]

master cariati can in fact break multiple concrete slabs etc. i myself condition a bit because, well, te optoin to go into open and tougher fighting rings is there.

there is also a video ive seen which made me chuckle where an ITF (my style) tkd fighter front kicks a tai boxer in the gut and downs him with it. its funny cause tkd gets alot of stick cause of all the fakes there are (and there are a lot!).

i think my point is... oh wait, ran outta space again...

[ax3ninja]

my point is that alot of people find it very easy to disrespect taekwon-do. it doesnt have that great of a history; itas only 60 years old, it was used by te KCIA to aid in killing iniccent people, tang soo do didnt like it cause it became a more popular art etc etc. but there are still some groups out there, that wear the ITF badge and really train how general choi wanted. and dont worry, they can do low kicks! i appreciate your comment, this looks like padless kickboxing to me (no kyo exp).

[Bassai]

All what you had said does not support your original argument, that a decent Tae Kwon Do fighter could easily break bones entering this tournament. I was not belittling Tae Kwon Do, and I am aware of its historical linkage to Shotokan. You kind of veered away from the original argument. Also, the breaking of concrete slabs and bricks and such does not mean you can break ribs and bone the same way. Among the reasons lies in the law of Physics. A fighter is not braced as would a piece of wood

[ax3ninja]

i know you're not belittling tkd. the point i made was that it looked like a decent tkd practitioner could do some damage with a decent side kick/back kick. you mentined the importance of conditioning, well im saying that tk practioners condition too so teh busting of bits and peices is still a very real threat. and you mentioned low kicks and i said that yes, taekwon-do in sparring terms doesnt like low kicks, but speaking from experience it is avoidable/can be used to advantage. thats it.

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja so I am curious, what strategies for technique and conditioning a decent TKD fighter should employ when entering this tournament would you recommend?

[ax3ninja]

well id just be doing my usual: punching walls (straight and back fist) and i like to use wooden swords for hitting shins and forearms, though with the shin its easier just to kic it with your other heel repetedly. then with the abdomine its taking punches from someone else, working up till you can do full power... thats pretty much what i do. i cba with the elbows atm lol

[Bassai]

Well, the Kyokushin are conditioned thoroughly as well, so what about strategy? How would you avoid the low kicks? Would you still employ the traditional long TKD stance? Kyokushin bulldoze forward with their guard up, willing to take midsection kicks and punches (they're incredibly solid). And they time their kicks close range, so its hard to avoid low kicks.

[ax3ninja]

traditional long stance? taekwon-do has no long or low stances. the general looked into the science and decided that the karate style long low stances arent really neccessary. and when parring tkd just has a light springy stance for speed. i notice that the fighters hands usually are at shoulder height. and they are always on their heels. i know that you want sturdyness in full contact, but ive always trained for speed, and no amount of conditionng can prepare a good spinning back kick. okay...

[ax3ninja]

a strategy. see im one of those people that fight going backwards. i always spar go in against people heavier than me. but i can back it up with a good foreward drive witht the front leg. in the case of this i'd start wth what i know, driving the opponents hip through the other side with a sledgehammer sidekick (sorta liek a foreward side stomp). science says you'll double over, period. though the frontal will probably just put the opponenet off balance and spin. after that its speed speed...

[ax3ninja]

carrying on from the other 2 posts: for me its about the speed. speed in itself creates power. if i can move quick enough, i cant get hit, in out in out. thats the general thing i like to do. plus its very easy to convert a kick, sliding in with what looks like a side kick and turning your leg horizontal and driving down a pick axe kick, does wonders on the top rib bone (not generally condidtioned as well as the lower, also an off-balancer) not to mention kissing heel. all on speed.

[ax3ninja]

about the low kick: i've discussed about low kicks with people before heres a tested thing for me: dont generally kick head section unless you're sure of yourself, a good rule of thumb. also, when sliding forewards and driving the leg foreward you generally end up extending waaaaaay past 90 degree, making it extremely hard to actually reach the standing leg behind the kicking one. but then remeber i could also kick low as well. so dummies are another good one, chambe above the hip, and drop.

[Bassai]

The long stance with high center of gravity which Olympic TKD people use is what I meant. I still believe the Kyokushin can withstand a good spinning back kick because they train for it. Look up on you tube: Russian Kyokushin vs Tae Kwon Do and you'll see what I mean. As I said a single side kick or spin kick to the midsection will not stop the Kyokushin (see video). Also, when they throw the leg kick, they time it as your kicking leg lands. Not sure what your explanation was on leg kick.

[ax3ninja]

olympic? i dont do that fake crap, that isnt propper taekwon-do. tkd has more polotics than any other martial art, its a very dodgy one as well, all you need to know is the stuff in the olympics isnt what general choi introduced to the korean army.

timing? withstand? there are certain things you cant condition yourself against. one of them is at your hips, you take a kick that thrusts forewards in the hips and you WILL move i guarantee, unless you cant kick.

[Kaisertoji]

@ax3ninja ok you 2 can stop arguing now thats a do mawashi in tkd a turning long kick

[ax3ninja]

you wann check out serkan yilmaz, a famous and highly respected taekwon-do k-1 fighter... he can kick like taekwon-do. then theres kung l, a korean strikeforce fighter that broke shamrocks arm causing a forfeit... that is how powerful taekwon-do is when its propper.

the body can withstand more with conditioning, but if the person kicking you is trained to hurt you through that conditioning... then how much CAN you take?

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja Yes, I know Serkan Yilmaz, and I saw him defeated by Masato with low kicks here on You Tube. But that's veering away from the original argument. You had said a decent Tae Kwon Do guy can get into a Kyokushin tournament and easily break a few bones with a side kick or spinning back kick. Serkan does not fight with Kyokushin rules, and does K-1. If he does do a Kyokushin tournament and does well, then he's the example you need.

[Bassai]

No decent Kyokushin fighter is going to take two or three successive kicks in the midsection because he'd be moving forward or side, turn his body, use small evasive maneuvers and so forth. Plus his strategy against good kickers would be to close distance quickly as to nullify mid to high kicks (as per Russian vid) and employ low kicks to weaken the legs and slow down the opponent's speed. BTW, to condition yourself to get hit at the hips is part of Kyokushn low-kick defense training.

[ax3ninja]

oh for god sake im getting really bored of this. can you not except that a martial art that basesvery heavily on kicks can put damage on your kyu karate? the evidence is starign you right there. the fact is kyu and certain things and tkd has certain things. as ive said its speed, and the guys in that vid present that evidence. the tkd guy was just too fast and yes, 2, 3 or maybe more kicks can be landed. there is a point on the hip that WILL buckle you, trust me, i always aim there.

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja Also, in Kyokushin rules you are allowed to briefly grab a kick so the opponent can't follow up decently with another. Also, about the science of one being doubled over when hit in the midsection, again that idea has too many variables. As per said Russian vid, one guy threw a beautiful spinning back which landed squarely, but the Kyokushin guy took it well.

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja Also, I hope you can see I'm not bashing TKD as an art. I think it is effective if you know what you are doing, but I'm keeping this argument strictly to this one. My background is Shotokan, Kyokushin and BJJ. I also train every Sunday in NYC with friends who do TKD, Wing Chun and the like. I also am Martial Art history buff. I plan to be a History teacher for Mid and High school.

[ax3ninja]

in know you're not trying to bash, its aggrivating trying to explain certain things in words. all i can really advise is going to see master cariati in canada... thats the only group that i know of that do propper traditional general choi style taekwon-do. its hard to explain what im trying to say and ive given you evidence of theory. grabbing isnt allowed in tkd rules, but often its too quick.

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja Sorry if this is frustrating. I just don't accept evidence if it has flaws. Again, keeping the argument to this Kyokushin-style tournament, I think a TKD guy has adjust hist strategy and training to win and a simple solid sidekick pr spinning back kick isn't enough. My proof is the Russian vid, a tournament done with Kyokushin rules. Under TKD rules, Kyokushin obviously won't win.

[TakeshixStudios]

@Bassai Arguing style v.s style? Kyokushin is way more reliable.

[Bassai]

@ax3ninja (continued) or slab of concrete. Second, it's tough muscle's pliability that makes one more able to absorb shock. Pliability is important, like if you drop a vase rapped in foam and bubble wrap compared to dropping a naked vase. Curvature of the body causes deflection as well. It's easier to smash a flat piece of board braced on the ends. If the direction of the force is not perpendicular to the surface, it might not work. Hence, M1 tank armor is angled.

[oiram48]

U show your great fighting experience by posting obscene comments

[Bassai]

@VegetaJr3 You're an anime kid right? You've never sparred or have no idea about what Kyokushin is. Oh, my poor son...

[KyokushinNidan]

Awesome classic Kyokushin fight. It's refreshing to see two fighters that don't stand chest to chest like you see so often. Standing outside and then moving inside to deliver strikes and then moving back out is much more realistic.

[ferodou6666]

good fight!