Even if all this crap was real, a finite amount of sin does not justify infinite punishment. People refute this by saying "God is infinite, so you must have infinite torture," but that still doesn't make any sense. If hell really is fiery, anyone that is there for just a minute would cry out for God to save them, but God won't come, which goes against the "limitless forgiveness" doctrine. All religions are fucked up dogmatic bullshit.
Ethics are a human invention. If God exists, ethics mean squat. He who has the power of God decides what happens and what is acceptable, whether He designs an ethical system or bases judgment on His whim. If we, the lowly mortals, say certain uses of Hell are unethical, He, the omnipotent, would not be bound by the ethics and think we're cute.
@halphalphalphalp If nothing can exist without God creating it, including ethics, then God must have created various sets of ethics, since different people have different ethics. But anyway, for us to try to apply our own ethics to what God does, would be cute. Our ethics cannot bind God, and can barely bind us (maybe God invented the violation of ethics). If God created both Hell and ethics that prohibit creating Hell, He shows that He is not bound by that set of ethics.
@qwexas it's not about binding god to the morality of god's religion, it's about the claim that god is benevolent, which is central to most religion, that is the problem.
it is completely reasonable to have a god like cthulhu or satan creating a hell because, as you say, he is not bound by the ethics he asks us to abide by. but to claim a god that does creates hell is also benevolent and good, is a contradiction.
@halphalphalphalp How God can be benevolent yet create Hell, I can't resolve. It's even harder when free will comes in. How can God be all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing, if sin and Hell exist. If God knows when we will sin, this implies it's our destiny not free will. In that case it seems unloving to allow us to sin and then damn us for what we were destined to do. If God exists, and is all these seemingly contradictory things, He must be psychologically disturbed.
@halphalphalphalp Have you heard that if you ask 10 eye-witnesses, you'll get 10 different accounts of what happened? I think that happened to God. Too many people gave too many descriptions, and some aren't very compatible with others. Ask a Christian to describe Jesus, and they'll probably describe their ideal self instead, so descriptions won't line up. If you believe everything all of them say, the composite will be incredible, like a dozen people being one.
I agree with you, better safe than sorry, and the bible also says to lean NOTon our own understanding, who can really understand God, or really anything here for that matter.
Ah but how do you know your particular religion or cult has the truth? Maybe you are going to hell and don't even know it. After all, you think that billions of other people are blissfully ignorant of their impending doom. Maybe YOU are the one that has got it wrong. Tricky eh?
There is no "playing it safe" in a world with 20,000 different Christian sects, and countless other religions. It's not an either or choice, it's an infinite one. Good luck with that:-)
It's not tricky, it all takes faith. You have the Christian founders who signed the Constitution, look at the result. God said keep my commandments and I'll bless the work of your hand. Where is Islam, it claims prosperity, yet, their people live in the desert. Only those with oil prosper. Where is Buddha? The Bible makes a specific claim about individual prosperity as well as to nations as a whole. Israel and the U.S. both have Bible believing founders and prosper.
When every cat and dog I meet on the street rushes up to greet me, when wild birds perch on my shoulders, when sheep and lambs, horses cows and calves run to the fence to say hello, when every passing person on the street exchanges a warm smile, even though they may have looked sad at first enconter, it is then that I know I am not wasting the precious moments of my short life. When I fret about personal pain or grief, which like the fool that I am, I occasionally do, I reflect on my stupidity.
Many "atheists" can't read, anything, as they've not learned how. It's up to we normal people {non-"atheists"} to teach them the alphabet...& ciphering, as they're hopeless in arithmetic too.
I don't know what agnostic is,but you are right,i second you.Hell is the place were no god is,you shall understand it as a retirement of his love(power).Because maybe you has complitly take god in a wrong way!!Peace
Hell is Gods' punishment. It could just as easily be eternal freezing. Just as man electrocutes, injects or keep a man their entire life in jail. Our soul is eternal, and our punishment will be eternal.
The problem with most christians is that they can't read between what the scriptures really say, only what their own bias presuppositions allow them to believe.
The idea of an eternal Hell was added by the Catholic clergy sometime in the 9th century during a time when the church was losing its control of the masses of christendom.
Hell is merely just seperation from God, where the souls of people who were not saved are annihilated and not allow to enter into heaven.
Because your soul was always meant to be eternal, and so you will spend that somewhere. If you want to go to heaven, confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, and you will be saved.
It's God's. It goes back to Genesis, at the time of the first disobedience from Adam and Eve. God limited the amount of years man would live on the earth.
It may not make sense because people go by their thoughts and their will, their ideas. But God says he has his own thoughts, and his own ways. And that his thoughts and ways are not ours, and just as the sky is higher, so are Gods' thoughts and his ways. His mercy and forgiveness is what allows you eternity with him in Heaven.
That's fucked up logic! Have you ever consider that that was just written to make you stop asking questions and seeking the truth? I can say that about Osama Bin Laden! "Oh, Osama is God! We can't question his ways! They're far higher than ours!" You'd say bullshit! So, why not the bible?
Because Osama doesn't run the world the way he wants, his will isn't being done the way he says he wants it to be. When I read about the blessings God gives to the Hebrews, and when it describes the way mans' attitude will be in 2 Timothy ch. 3, I see all those things. Islam promises blessings of prosperity, flowing rivers and gardens, yet doesn't produce it. Those people who have, do so because they own oil wells and everyone else starves.
Well then saying "yes he does!" is just then your presumption and I could say the same thing back to you.
I go by what I know. Islam wants to take over and they're not happy until it does. So if it were his will he would have it done
The Bible promises God will bless the work of your hand, and we are told to pray and ask for the necessity's and that contentment with Godliness is great gain. So it does promise you will be rewarded in this life.
"I go by what I know. Islam wants to take over and they're not happy until it does. So if it were his will he would have it done"
He WILL! In his OWN TIME! His ways are higher than your ways!
"The Bible promises God will bless the work of your hand, and we are told to pray and ask for the necessity's and that contentment with Godliness is great gain. So it does promise you will be rewarded in this life."
Not divine knowledge! Those things are a result of HARD WORK! Not a God!
Show me his quotes then. Everything I've said is in the Bible. Show me in their holy book or the quotes of osama himself.
There is divine knowledge, in 2 Timothy ch. 3 Luke ch 21, about the attitudes of men, and the conditions toward the end. There are numerous probabilities in which things could turn out, world peace is one of them. And the Bible claims this can never, and will never happen without Jesus Christ.
I know what he thinks because I can feel him in my heart! I've seen him in action! I've seen him heal me!
"There is divine knowledge, in 2 Timothy ch. 3 Luke ch 21, about the attitudes of men, and the conditions toward the end."
Those conditions have been happening for 2000 years! It's vague and fuck, and in Luke, Jesus makes the mistake of specifying a date, which shows whoever wrote this stuff was full of shit.
That may be fine. But show me his writings about him saying things are going the way he wants. The man you speak of doesn't claim to be God. So you're mistaken. He follows islam. No one has ever claimed him to be God. But you.
It takes absolute knowledge though to say how people will be. Because without it whose to say world peace isnt possible without a God? Athiests think so and believe its possible. The Bible claims peace isn't possible without Jesus.
But where in the qu'ran does it say on his own time? And that his ways are higher than mine? It says this in the Bible though.
Also, people work hard all the time, they work two, three jobs and still live paycheck to paycheck. Nations work hard and oppress their people. The Hebrews took Israel and look at the fruit. The Christians Founded the U.S. and look at what it produced. Where is Islam? Suffering in the desert, that's where. It was Christian men who signed the Constitution not atheist's.
The majority of the Founding fathers were Christian's. There were 39 men who signed the Constitution, and 56 who signed the Declaration, 204 total who are considered the first in the U.S. government. The overwhelming majority were Christian men.
Then why does Thomas Jefferson in his letter to Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 call himself a true Christian? You need to look it up instead of just listening to liars.
Perhaps you should read up on Islamic history before making such stupid statements. When Islam was at its peak you were in ur dark ages. The concepts of democracy, bureaucracy, hospitals even military organization was borrowed from muslims. Islamic nations are suffering due to colonization from XIAN nations and their theft of our resources.
Africa is choked full of Christianity and it has nothing to show for it and Europe is atheist. Your a clown with no historical knowledge so stop pretending.
The Bible says that when the leaders are righteous, the people rejoice, when they're corrupt they morn. Africa has corrupt leadership, they're aren't Christian and therefore they keep their people poor. Europe wasn't always atheist. So I then can say you're the clown with no historical knowledge so stop pretending?
So now you decide who is Christian and who isnt? Im sorry but who are you again....lol. Are they non Christians because they dont believe that Jesus Christ is their lord and saviour or because your little brain decided to excommunicate them. Tell this to the countless churches in the US that have extraordinary relations with churches in Africa.
"Europe wasn't always atheist". Is there a point? Lastly who witheld the bible from the masses? The church did. AND WHAT RELIGION IS THE CHURCH?
I'm not deciding who is Christian and who isn't. By leaders, I meant the Government of those African Nations. I just wasn't specific enough. In the Bible it speaks of rulers, and that is the government. Rulers are corrupt, the people mourn, if they're righteous, the people rejoice.
The church that you speak of is the Catholic church. Which is a denomination. These weren't exactly evangelicals withholding the Bible. I'm not Catholic.
Much of Europe was in power when they were Christian.
Whether you agree with them isn't the issue. Catholics are Christians. In fact the Catholic church is the face of Christianity.
Which bring me to my next point. I agree with the Bible. My question is when it's a Christian nation mired in corruption, poverty etc it is the fault of the leadership but when it is a Muslim nation then it is the fault of the religion?
The hypocrisy is glaring
There are many factors OTHER than religion that lead to successful societies. The examples are numerous
The word evangelist is in the Bible, not the word "catholic".
A Christian nation is not a Christian theocracy in which they are forced to believe in Christianity. The nations with God fearing Christians from the top down are the best. Africa doesn't have that.
Muslim leadership follow the qu'ran, they still aren't better off for it and they're embracing science for oil, military etc. They had some smart people, sure.
Israel is great too, unfortunately for them they didn't accept Jesus.
The Evangelical bible? I always thought the followers of Christ were Christians but I gues it is human nature to divide.
Im afraid you will find that NONE of the muslim rulers follow the Quran. NOT ONE. That is why there is such dissent and agitation in muslim societies against the undemocratic, illegitmiate, corrupt governments that plague muslim countries. These masses are then repressed using MILITARY aid from the WEST.
This oppression is the cause of resentment NOT your values.
Not the evangelical Bible. The word "evangelist" is used in the Bible as well as the word "Christian". Apostle Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. In the book of Acts, those who followed Jesus were known as Christians. Certainly the word Catholic never is used.
The leader of Iran does, the ayatollah, Hezbollah etc.
This video is one hundred percent on target, and who ever disagrees is just denying the fact that Hell and religion make no sense. He would prefer to cling on to something non existent or that isn't there rather than cling to reason and logic which is irrefutable by means of facts and perfect equations. But then again, the next person will come by and tell me "you just have to have faith, I have faith" and by doing so miss completely the point the video is making.
the ethics of hell? hell has ethics? hell i god's way of saying "i made too many of you to care about or deal with and i don't feel like it so go away for thinking i'm not here!"
They're hard. I'm struggling with them myself. Realizing that you're going to die and that afterward, there is no heaven or hell, just...nothing. It's hard to swallow when you've known "something" as long as you can remember. It's scary.
@Scentless Well it's not entirely that hard to envision. Just think about what it was like before you were born. Also no one knows if there is something after death. The most honest standpoint is to say we don't know.
@Scentless First try to remember what it was like before you were born. you can't, because you had no consciousness, and no brain activity. in death all brain activity stops and you don't realize you're dead because you can't. there's no need to be afraid of death because you can't be afraid. There could be some kind of way your consciousness goes on after death and recycled but nobody knows for sure.
Brains are similar to computers, shut a computer off, and it can't process, or "think".
There are 6.6 billion people on this planet. Of them, about 2 billion belong to the Oh-So-Perfect culture of Christianity. If simply being a Non-Christian is a crime that warrants infinite punishment, I have 4.6 billion friends I'd like you to meet. Hey! That's like one friend for every year that the planet Earth has existed. Fancy that!
You use of God knowing that creation would fall and go to hell is not the view of the Latter Day Saints. They believe that there are layers of Glory which all inherit except the worst of the worst. So they make sense of that.
The LDS change the word "hell" to "outer darkness" but, the concept is exactly the same. Also the various layers of "glory" are simply levels of damnation. These levels create a hierarchy by which the LDS philosopher kings can rule over the less valiant. In the context of this video, instead of one big carrot and one big stick, the Mormons have multiple carrots and sticks of varying sizes.
If God revealed to me that his plan is to reward people who have the courage to reject the cruel portrayal of him in the bible, and that he intends to punish Christians by burning them for eternity, then I as an unbeliever would be horrified and I would never be happy in that knowledge. I certainly would not feel love, or even respect for God. Why do Christians not feel the same for atheists and believers of other faiths?
God's plan is a decision. he decides who will be a Christian and who will not. Who decided before everything began who will be burnt in hell or sent to heaven.
What about those godless atheistic commies killing & torturing those poor defenseless Tibetan monks.?
The wave of the future is not the conquest of the world by a single dogmatic creed but the liberation of the diverse energies of free nations and free men. JFK
I am as outraged by the situation in Tibet as I assume you are, in fact it got a mention in one of my recent videos. However, by pointing out religions inconsistencies, I don't endorse rounding the religious up and putting them into concentration camps. I'm merely pointing out religions inconsistencies. Thats it, and it's plenty frankly.
This doesn't mean that something is correct. Aboriginal beliefs persisted for perhaps tens of thousands of years, the ancient Egyptians had a codified belief system that was "mainstream" for perhaps as many as 3000. Were they right? For almost all of history, Humans believed that every stream, tree and mountain contained a spirit, which could be bartered with. Why do you not subscribe to this religion?
The underlying neurological reasons for the human propensity for religion are well understood. It may be as simple as this. Humans that overreacted to external noises, attributing intent and intelligence to them, survived. If you over reacte 99 times out of 100 to the wind in the trees, what harm? However, underreacte when it isn't the wind, but a panther creeping up on you .... You get the picture, there is clear evolutionary benefit to suspecting intelligence and intent in nature.
The problem with modern man is just this! He's too modern. The older religions all had a deep sensitivity to the earth. Modern science is only now learning that it has made some big mistakes. We see these mistakes evident in global warming. The ancients deeply & religiously respected the water the land for whence all life comes from.
Have you ever heard of NDE'S? Near death experiences
Just goggle & you find so many postings that talk about heaven & hell experiences. You'll find stories about doctors & nurses, atheists who have come to believe in God, heaven & hell because of these experiences.
There are a range of explanations for these. I'm sure you can google them on your own. They fall into the category of personal experience. They cannot be independently verified for example, and those that report "floating" above their bodies, are curiously incapable of describing or identifying objects visible only from that vantage point.
Well, I've heard of NDE's and if you consider them evidence of an afterlife, then you've been reading sources that cherry-pick the NDE cases they tell you about, and neglect to enlighten you on the scientific study of the phenomena, which pretty clearly demonstrates it to be something that happens in your brain in response to extreme stress, or oxygen deprivation. The things you might not know about NDE's include such things as the experience being...
...culture, and belief-specific. Meaning that while a Christian may see Christ, a devout Elvis fan may see Elvis, and people of other religions or devotions will see the objects of their worship. And while in the West it's an experience of a meeting with some figure that tells you it isn't your time yet, in India, a scenario reported usually includes some sort of bureaucracy, and a clerical error that led you to be there, and which is why you've been sent back...
...NDE's can also be reproduced in situations where the person is not dying, further demonstrating that the event is of a psychological, subjective nature, and does not reflect any external reality. Some people have a bad experience, but there bad and good experiences don't line up with any religion, so that, say, Christians exclusively would have a "heavenly" scenario. So no, NDE's certainly aren't evidence of an afterlife, of either...
...hell or a heaven, even if they feel genuine and personally convincing to those experiencers who aren't aware of the naturalistic explanations, and evidence. Personal conviction is not evidence.
Sure there are. But if those things are of any relevance to us, have any effect on the Universe, they tend to leave behind evidence, and are not contradicted by evidence. Such as is in the case of NDE's which have been determined, as explained, to be of natural origin, a subjective internal experience. There is no integrity in ignoring evidence you don't like, just to keep believing things that go against that evidence.
"However, if you consider carefully, you'll note that as society becomes richer, more equal and more educated, punishment has become far more humane,"
I can agree on this point from your post "humanness" but only in the treatment of crime from a western world perspective.
Well this is obviously wrong. India, Asia and even China have cleaned up their act, and some of the "western" countries have regressed. It's a jagged saw tooth with a clear trend, toward more humane treatment as society can afford it.
To say that china has cleaned up it act is misleading & wrong. What chance did the Chinese hostage taker get on the bus last week in China? What respect do believers get in China? I can cut & paste numerous documented accounts of arrests this year alone in China. The burning alive of missionary father & his two sons in a car by a raging mob speaks wonders for India progress. The caste system that permeates Indian society speaks volumes for truth justice & the progress of man!
I'm not claiming China or India is a paradise. Try and have some nuance, and while you are doing that throw in a big cold splash of objectivity. The US is currently reviled around the world for an illegal war which may have claimed as many as a million lives, in a population of 28 million. The US also imprisons 1% of its entire population, most of whom curiously, are black. Then, there is Guantanamo. No one here is getting the perfect nation crown Steve, but we ARE all gradually getting better.
Why do you think this relevant? I'm not endorsing the Chinese government, and I will no doubt shortly be receiving petitions from my amnesty international subscribtion protesting the issue, which I will sign. What action will you be taking? Try and understand, I am merely objectively observing, that they are generally treating their citizens better than Chinese governments have in the past.
"I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant."
I disagree to your statement of relevance for feelings. Most crimes are committed by acts of feelings. Revenge is precipitated by feelings that require action to be taken by the person.
This merely reinforces my point. The reason developed societies place an army of objective intermediaries between victims and perpetrators is to PREVENT exactly what you are so keen on, a visceral, emotional over reaction. Revenge had utility when we lived in tiny intimate bands of hunter gathers, and the only "justice" available, was whatever damage you could personally mete out. Now the thirst for revenge is a useless emotion, worse than useless, basically dangerous evolutionary baggage.
I wonder about the worth for your desire to eradicate "revenge" as a "useless, dangerous, evolutionary baggage" I speculate if it would be very dangerous to eradicate something that is necessary for human survival. HG Wells discusses these ideas in his novel Time Machine in which a utopian society exist in a deceptive lie.
This is something quite sensible, given it recognises a prrimary drive and the danger of suppressing it. Nonetheless we use contraception, and have courts to prosecute uncontrolled rage or anger. I think we are safe ditching revenge. It's utility is zero, and it's worst downside (a massive global war) gives serious pause for thought. Nope, we should try, as far as possible, to eliminate revenge from society. Besides, look how well it's working for Albania.
We certainly require disincentives to crime in human society. However, if you consider carefully, you'll note that as society becomes richer, more equal and more educated, punishment has become far more humane, as well as being graduated to scale with the crime. In a society of unlimited resources however, crime would almost certainly be considered an illness to be treated, not a personal account to be revenged. A 3-0 God throwing people into hell is simply pointless & depraved squared.
"Crime would almost certainly be considered an illness to be treated, not a personal account to be revenged."
Tell that to the mothers & fathers whose children have been sexually violated & murdered by serial pedophiles. I have just mentioned one example here but as you know there are many, many more examples of premeditated acts of violence perpetrated on children & adults.
Here you appeal to emotion, rather than taking an objective view. Of course these are terrible crimes, of course we reacte with a surge of adrenalin and a desire to take revenge. Yet, what good is it?
Humanity has always been subjected to the "Disturbing". No matter what you or I think or postulate the revenge cycle will never dissipate from the human or natural world.
Marya Mannes describes the natural revenge cycle well
"The earth we abuse and the living things we kill will, in the end, take their revenge; for in exploiting their presence we are diminishing our future"
I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant. Your championing of revenge, and your misguided enthusiasim for it however, I DO find disturbing. Revenge has no useful function in a society of 6.5 billion human beings.
"I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant."
I disagree to your statement of relevance for feelings. Most crimes are committed by acts of feelings. Revenge is precipitated by feelings that require action to be taken by the person.
Our humanity is I believe, hard wired on this matter. Those respected & idolized non violent ones who have walked our planet when their lives are stripped of the myths & the truths exhibit this same hard wiring.
Stripped down to its essence, justice is simply payback for the crime committed. This truth permeates all justice systems world wide whether we acknowledge this fact or not. This is the way it has always been since man has walked upon the face of our Terra firma.
My thoughts are presently reflecting upon those poor children who suffered under those terrible evil aberrant individuals who preyed upon those innocent children in those torture cells in Jersey.
From a non Christian perspective I think hell is most absolute form of eternal justice ever devised. If there is no hell than those who have been put through hell here on earth must take revenge & justice into there own hands? To leave justice in the hands of those who are corrupt & complicit is inviting hell upon oneself. Tyrants, despots & those in positions of power over those who are powerless has been a never ending stain upon humanity.
What possible utility does it have? Does it undo the harm done? Heal the broken, reverse the damage? Why not simply intervene to prevent the negative outcome? Hell is simply an attempt to up the ante, overwhelm critical thinking and terrorise people to accept a particular ideology. It is an evil, pernicious lie that should be exposed at every opportunity.
Jesus was the real evidence for the world.And for me belief gives hope for better tomorrow and i dont have to be afraid of death. And what if am wrong what do i lose? nothing. But if i am right, There is no better prize. Lol but i am having this same conversation elsewhere. I dont want to start allover again.
There are 30,000 variations of Xianity. Which one is "right"? Then of course there are the 100s of other religions you know absolutely nothing about. Your mistake is to think that it's a yes/no choice, God/No God, when in reality, no God is just one of tens of thousands of alternate options, and the only game in town supported by any evidence whatever. Besides, if you "choose" your brand of Xianity as a kind of metaphysical insurance policy, wouldn't a God see straight through such dishonesty?
Bible says nothing is impossible for Him. So he can do it if he wants. He is not human, He can do things that we cannot understand. That is how i believe you can believe what you want.
Thats called "begging the question". God is so amazing, no evidence, certainly none that actually makes sense is required to explain him. Yet I can make the very same claim for the flying spagetti monster, as can muslims for Allah or 10th century Danes for Thor. Try again.
Hey Man great video, I'm an atheist and Jehovah's Witnesses have found a loophole to the why if god loves us why would it make hell. One of my friends is a Jehovah's Witnesses and he told me that they don't believe in hell. Cause if god loves them he wouldn't make a person suffer forever. There hell is like a pit or something where your "mortal soul" just disappears just snuffed out of existence. How covenant do you think?
Jews did not have an eternal hell .Hell is a Christian invention from the 4th century .Google the article Hell invented .The history channel did an hour program on hells origins , it might be available in public library .
Hitchens points out that God stands by with arms crossed uninvolved for more than 90% of the human races existance .Only very recently did religion spring up .
Good video ,I suggest a part 2 or redo it to include more information .Its estimated that about 106 billion people ( modern homo sapiens)have been born .Most of those people lived before 10 thousand years ago .These people had no instruction of modern religion.Why would God not care to guide any of them .
I sometimes wonder what it must have been like for the first creatures to mutate photo sensitive cells that would eventually evolve into eyes. It most have been confusing to have fuzzy, non-descript flashes of the visual world. The creatures around without this mutation them must have thought them foolish, impared, or possibly sage like. The ability to see your prey coming and anticipate it's movement must have appeared magical. What other spectrums could we be totally blind to?
This is supposed to be taken seriously, but instead of using the proper adverb, "Shitty" job, he uses "shit" job. It makes no sense either way, because if you were actually trying to be credible, you'd actually use more universal/scientific terms.
This video is an obvious sham, and done by the anti-religious in effort to discredit ppl's faith.
no because God is an ASSHOLE if he created a special place where he could send billions of souls to be tormented forever... He is doing a SHIT job if the Bible is supposed to be his word (which it is clearly not), because history has shown corruption using the Bible (dark ages, salem witch trials, inquisition, etc etc)
Everything has been used for bad at one point or another. The Bible hasn't been proven corrupt simply because people have misinterpretted that action.
Let's say you tell your friend that you don't like something that a person did(ie-they stole something, or said something you didn't like), so your friend goes out and kills that person.
Does that make YOU a bad person simply because you told them that you didn't like what they did? Misinterpretation does not=corruption.
No difference between analogies. Analogies are ambiguous by natures. They don't designate individual scenarios. Just because something is misinterpretted doesn't make it corrupt..end of story.
If I knew my friend was going to kill someone based on something I had said, rest assured I wouldn't say it. God does not have this excuse. He knows. Not only does he know this outcome, but every other affected outcome from this interaction raidiating out to infinity. Your analogy is thus self evidently absurd to any modestly intelligent person, and cannot be applied to the creator of the universe, who (you claim) is all powerful, having complete foreknowledge of EVERYTHING.
Anything that's said can be used for evil. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be Freedom of Choice...He gives humans free will. You have the right to use it how you want, when you want, but you have to live with the consequenses.
Btw, GBart, it doesn't become absurd...difficult, yes, but not entirely improbable. Quantum physics or no quantum physics, it's not impossible. Besides, you're only talking by human standard. Then again, there's more than humans out there.
Christians came 340 years AFTER Jesus. The people who wrote the Bible never ate, walked, spoke, saw, or sat with Jesus. So how would it be having people writing a book after a Person who spread the word of God be even comprehensive or even READBLE??? Romans were there, and Greeks came after, and then the Christians who took of what they Like from what Jesus said and what they liked from the Pagan beliefs of Greeks and Romans (Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox ;) ).
here's a lil example (Christmas, consuming Pork, Alcohol, and much more...) I think you need to open your eyes and read more about the History of your religion. And who was Jesus and what was his Message. Now be honest, who would u believe more, what a person tells u NOW, or what some 1 tells u that some 1 told another some 1 that some 1 heard that some 1 else told some old guy that THAT person said so ???? .. Good Bye.
Then why preach against the evil of sin? Why don't we just all kill ourselves so we can immediately enjoy everlasting bliss? I wouldn't want ANYONE EVER to believe with certainty that we are all destined for heaven.
im a buddist because i got not bring my self to belive people that did not read or belive in god would go to hell when i looked at them id say fuck there just as nice as me !! and deserve to be as happy as i am
This is a good summary of why it will take a long time to rid the world of religious insanity. Children are victims of their moron parents. They grow up to brainwash their own children with the same stupidity. All religions work this way. All religions survive thanks to the mental abuse of children. The preacher retards get to the child before their first science lesson, and the child never has a chance.
Deities, in general, are all selfish beings with great power, who NEVER question whether they are right or wrong in doing something. Questioning is never allowed of any deity... their will is to be absolute. This is how all sorts of religions work, and the reason why Christianity is like this is because it simply stole ideas from Pagan religions and slapped it together with parts of the Jewish faith.
"how a perfectly succesful meme can quickly become a liability."
that's why i believe in Ceiling Cat. Lolcat is the True way to salvation.
zecle 11 months ago
Even if all this crap was real, a finite amount of sin does not justify infinite punishment. People refute this by saying "God is infinite, so you must have infinite torture," but that still doesn't make any sense. If hell really is fiery, anyone that is there for just a minute would cry out for God to save them, but God won't come, which goes against the "limitless forgiveness" doctrine. All religions are fucked up dogmatic bullshit.
hab99rry 1 year ago 2
Ethics are a human invention. If God exists, ethics mean squat. He who has the power of God decides what happens and what is acceptable, whether He designs an ethical system or bases judgment on His whim. If we, the lowly mortals, say certain uses of Hell are unethical, He, the omnipotent, would not be bound by the ethics and think we're cute.
qwexas 1 year ago
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halphalphalphalp 1 year ago
@qwexas no, if god exists in the form claimed then everything including our ethics is HIS invention.
halphalphalphalp 1 year ago
@halphalphalphalp If nothing can exist without God creating it, including ethics, then God must have created various sets of ethics, since different people have different ethics. But anyway, for us to try to apply our own ethics to what God does, would be cute. Our ethics cannot bind God, and can barely bind us (maybe God invented the violation of ethics). If God created both Hell and ethics that prohibit creating Hell, He shows that He is not bound by that set of ethics.
qwexas 1 year ago
@qwexas it's not about binding god to the morality of god's religion, it's about the claim that god is benevolent, which is central to most religion, that is the problem.
it is completely reasonable to have a god like cthulhu or satan creating a hell because, as you say, he is not bound by the ethics he asks us to abide by. but to claim a god that does creates hell is also benevolent and good, is a contradiction.
halphalphalphalp 1 year ago
@halphalphalphalp How God can be benevolent yet create Hell, I can't resolve. It's even harder when free will comes in. How can God be all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing, if sin and Hell exist. If God knows when we will sin, this implies it's our destiny not free will. In that case it seems unloving to allow us to sin and then damn us for what we were destined to do. If God exists, and is all these seemingly contradictory things, He must be psychologically disturbed.
qwexas 1 year ago
@halphalphalphalp Have you heard that if you ask 10 eye-witnesses, you'll get 10 different accounts of what happened? I think that happened to God. Too many people gave too many descriptions, and some aren't very compatible with others. Ask a Christian to describe Jesus, and they'll probably describe their ideal self instead, so descriptions won't line up. If you believe everything all of them say, the composite will be incredible, like a dozen people being one.
qwexas 1 year ago
We have one shot. Don't waste it. Use your fear of "Nothing" as your drive.
You have no reason to even do anything. But no reason is enough reason.
Magnetohydrodynamics 1 year ago
Absolutely excellent video. Makes a lot of sense. Now if I could only somehow get all my righteous judgemental xtian neighbors to watch it.
HappyApostate 2 years ago
Atheists FTW!!
ArrogantAtheist 2 years ago
Your thoughts seem well thought out, but I choose to keep worshiping Jesus. ... it's better to be safe than sorry.
mrqcrew 2 years ago
I agree with you, better safe than sorry, and the bible also says to lean NOTon our own understanding, who can really understand God, or really anything here for that matter.
dekerranda 2 years ago
Ah but how do you know your particular religion or cult has the truth? Maybe you are going to hell and don't even know it. After all, you think that billions of other people are blissfully ignorant of their impending doom. Maybe YOU are the one that has got it wrong. Tricky eh?
There is no "playing it safe" in a world with 20,000 different Christian sects, and countless other religions. It's not an either or choice, it's an infinite one. Good luck with that:-)
TheModestAgnostic 2 years ago
It's not tricky, it all takes faith. You have the Christian founders who signed the Constitution, look at the result. God said keep my commandments and I'll bless the work of your hand. Where is Islam, it claims prosperity, yet, their people live in the desert. Only those with oil prosper. Where is Buddha? The Bible makes a specific claim about individual prosperity as well as to nations as a whole. Israel and the U.S. both have Bible believing founders and prosper.
timcp1 2 years ago
Great video. Especially your message at the end. Carpe Diem!
GuerrillaAtheism 2 years ago
When every cat and dog I meet on the street rushes up to greet me, when wild birds perch on my shoulders, when sheep and lambs, horses cows and calves run to the fence to say hello, when every passing person on the street exchanges a warm smile, even though they may have looked sad at first enconter, it is then that I know I am not wasting the precious moments of my short life. When I fret about personal pain or grief, which like the fool that I am, I occasionally do, I reflect on my stupidity.
WarzSchoolchild 2 years ago
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Many "atheists" can't read, anything, as they've not learned how. It's up to we normal people {non-"atheists"} to teach them the alphabet...& ciphering, as they're hopeless in arithmetic too.
procommenter 2 years ago
I don't know what agnostic is,but you are right,i second you.Hell is the place were no god is,you shall understand it as a retirement of his love(power).Because maybe you has complitly take god in a wrong way!!Peace
Ahridium777 3 years ago
Hell is Gods' punishment. It could just as easily be eternal freezing. Just as man electrocutes, injects or keep a man their entire life in jail. Our soul is eternal, and our punishment will be eternal.
timcp1 3 years ago
Sorry, but the doctrine of Hell is not a true scriptural teaching.
TheAgnosticAspie 3 years ago
Maybe not in your scripture, but it is in the Bible.
timcp1 3 years ago
No its not scriptural.
The problem with most christians is that they can't read between what the scriptures really say, only what their own bias presuppositions allow them to believe.
The idea of an eternal Hell was added by the Catholic clergy sometime in the 9th century during a time when the church was losing its control of the masses of christendom.
Hell is merely just seperation from God, where the souls of people who were not saved are annihilated and not allow to enter into heaven.
TheAgnosticAspie 3 years ago
Psalm 16:10 (King James Version) 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
timcp1 3 years ago
"Just as man electrocutes, injects or keep a man their entire life in jail. "
Right.
And of course we execute people for Contempt of Court.
Imaginefree69 3 years ago
That doesn't make any fucking sense! What the POINT of suffering for eternity? Why not give them eternity to REPENT and go to heaven?
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Because your soul was always meant to be eternal, and so you will spend that somewhere. If you want to go to heaven, confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, and you will be saved.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
That is HORRIBLE LOGIC! What is STOPPING GOD FROM GIVING YOU ETERNITY TO REPENT?
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
His sovereign free will.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
God's? Or man's?
Either way, it makes no sense!
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
It's God's. It goes back to Genesis, at the time of the first disobedience from Adam and Eve. God limited the amount of years man would live on the earth.
It may not make sense because people go by their thoughts and their will, their ideas. But God says he has his own thoughts, and his own ways. And that his thoughts and ways are not ours, and just as the sky is higher, so are Gods' thoughts and his ways. His mercy and forgiveness is what allows you eternity with him in Heaven.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
That's fucked up logic! Have you ever consider that that was just written to make you stop asking questions and seeking the truth? I can say that about Osama Bin Laden! "Oh, Osama is God! We can't question his ways! They're far higher than ours!" You'd say bullshit! So, why not the bible?
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Because Osama doesn't run the world the way he wants, his will isn't being done the way he says he wants it to be. When I read about the blessings God gives to the Hebrews, and when it describes the way mans' attitude will be in 2 Timothy ch. 3, I see all those things. Islam promises blessings of prosperity, flowing rivers and gardens, yet doesn't produce it. Those people who have, do so because they own oil wells and everyone else starves.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
"Because Osama doesn't run the world the way he wants, his will isn't being done the way he says he wants it to be."
Yes he does! How dare you presume to know the mind of Osama?!
"Islam promises blessings of prosperity, flowing rivers and gardens, yet doesn't produce it."
You know what? NEITHER DOES CHRISTIANITY!
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Well then saying "yes he does!" is just then your presumption and I could say the same thing back to you.
I go by what I know. Islam wants to take over and they're not happy until it does. So if it were his will he would have it done
The Bible promises God will bless the work of your hand, and we are told to pray and ask for the necessity's and that contentment with Godliness is great gain. So it does promise you will be rewarded in this life.
Islam has done so for the individual believers.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
"I go by what I know. Islam wants to take over and they're not happy until it does. So if it were his will he would have it done"
He WILL! In his OWN TIME! His ways are higher than your ways!
"The Bible promises God will bless the work of your hand, and we are told to pray and ask for the necessity's and that contentment with Godliness is great gain. So it does promise you will be rewarded in this life."
Not divine knowledge! Those things are a result of HARD WORK! Not a God!
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Show me his quotes then. Everything I've said is in the Bible. Show me in their holy book or the quotes of osama himself.
There is divine knowledge, in 2 Timothy ch. 3 Luke ch 21, about the attitudes of men, and the conditions toward the end. There are numerous probabilities in which things could turn out, world peace is one of them. And the Bible claims this can never, and will never happen without Jesus Christ.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
I know what he thinks because I can feel him in my heart! I've seen him in action! I've seen him heal me!
"There is divine knowledge, in 2 Timothy ch. 3 Luke ch 21, about the attitudes of men, and the conditions toward the end."
Those conditions have been happening for 2000 years! It's vague and fuck, and in Luke, Jesus makes the mistake of specifying a date, which shows whoever wrote this stuff was full of shit.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
That may be fine. But show me his writings about him saying things are going the way he wants. The man you speak of doesn't claim to be God. So you're mistaken. He follows islam. No one has ever claimed him to be God. But you.
It takes absolute knowledge though to say how people will be. Because without it whose to say world peace isnt possible without a God? Athiests think so and believe its possible. The Bible claims peace isn't possible without Jesus.
Quote from the Bible the specified year
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
But where in the qu'ran does it say on his own time? And that his ways are higher than mine? It says this in the Bible though.
Also, people work hard all the time, they work two, three jobs and still live paycheck to paycheck. Nations work hard and oppress their people. The Hebrews took Israel and look at the fruit. The Christians Founded the U.S. and look at what it produced. Where is Islam? Suffering in the desert, that's where. It was Christian men who signed the Constitution not atheist's.
timcp1 2 years ago
I was saying it to illustrate how your arguments can apply to any other religion...
Also, the founding fathers were deists.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
But, they aren't my arguments, they are Biblical. Only the Bible says these things. The qu'ran doesn't, nor any other religion, so it can't apply.
timcp1 2 years ago
The majority of the Founding fathers were Christian's. There were 39 men who signed the Constitution, and 56 who signed the Declaration, 204 total who are considered the first in the U.S. government. The overwhelming majority were Christian men.
timcp1 2 years ago
Know what else? They KNEW they should keep the government and religion seperate!
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Then why does Thomas Jefferson describe having Church service in a courthouse in his letter to Dr. Cooper November 2, 1822?
timcp1 2 years ago
Thomas Jefferson was a deist. He said he didnt fnd one redeeming feature in Christianity. He was a deist. LOOK IT UP.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Comment removed
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
Then why does Thomas Jefferson in his letter to Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 call himself a true Christian? You need to look it up instead of just listening to liars.
timcp1 2 years ago
Regardless, this is argument from authority.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
Authority is a fact of life.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
You couldn't prove that if you wanted to.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
Perhaps you should read up on Islamic history before making such stupid statements. When Islam was at its peak you were in ur dark ages. The concepts of democracy, bureaucracy, hospitals even military organization was borrowed from muslims. Islamic nations are suffering due to colonization from XIAN nations and their theft of our resources.
Africa is choked full of Christianity and it has nothing to show for it and Europe is atheist. Your a clown with no historical knowledge so stop pretending.
Gr8Candid8 2 years ago
In the Dark Ages, the Bible was withheld from the people. That is history.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
The Bible says that when the leaders are righteous, the people rejoice, when they're corrupt they morn. Africa has corrupt leadership, they're aren't Christian and therefore they keep their people poor. Europe wasn't always atheist. So I then can say you're the clown with no historical knowledge so stop pretending?
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
So now you decide who is Christian and who isnt? Im sorry but who are you again....lol. Are they non Christians because they dont believe that Jesus Christ is their lord and saviour or because your little brain decided to excommunicate them. Tell this to the countless churches in the US that have extraordinary relations with churches in Africa.
"Europe wasn't always atheist". Is there a point? Lastly who witheld the bible from the masses? The church did. AND WHAT RELIGION IS THE CHURCH?
Gr8Candid8 2 years ago
I'm not deciding who is Christian and who isn't. By leaders, I meant the Government of those African Nations. I just wasn't specific enough. In the Bible it speaks of rulers, and that is the government. Rulers are corrupt, the people mourn, if they're righteous, the people rejoice.
The church that you speak of is the Catholic church. Which is a denomination. These weren't exactly evangelicals withholding the Bible. I'm not Catholic.
Much of Europe was in power when they were Christian.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
Whether you agree with them isn't the issue. Catholics are Christians. In fact the Catholic church is the face of Christianity.
Which bring me to my next point. I agree with the Bible. My question is when it's a Christian nation mired in corruption, poverty etc it is the fault of the leadership but when it is a Muslim nation then it is the fault of the religion?
The hypocrisy is glaring
There are many factors OTHER than religion that lead to successful societies. The examples are numerous
Gr8Candid8 2 years ago
The word evangelist is in the Bible, not the word "catholic".
A Christian nation is not a Christian theocracy in which they are forced to believe in Christianity. The nations with God fearing Christians from the top down are the best. Africa doesn't have that.
Muslim leadership follow the qu'ran, they still aren't better off for it and they're embracing science for oil, military etc. They had some smart people, sure.
Israel is great too, unfortunately for them they didn't accept Jesus.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
Hey! Get off my lawn!
;-P
TheModestAgnostic 2 years ago
The Evangelical bible? I always thought the followers of Christ were Christians but I gues it is human nature to divide.
Im afraid you will find that NONE of the muslim rulers follow the Quran. NOT ONE. That is why there is such dissent and agitation in muslim societies against the undemocratic, illegitmiate, corrupt governments that plague muslim countries. These masses are then repressed using MILITARY aid from the WEST.
This oppression is the cause of resentment NOT your values.
Gr8Candid8 2 years ago
Not the evangelical Bible. The word "evangelist" is used in the Bible as well as the word "Christian". Apostle Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. In the book of Acts, those who followed Jesus were known as Christians. Certainly the word Catholic never is used.
The leader of Iran does, the ayatollah, Hezbollah etc.
Everything else is your op-ed.
JCDBenjamin 2 years ago
@JCDBenjamin Catholic=καθολικός(greek) which means Universal....
technically it means "all of the Christians"
luciferiexcelsil 1 year ago
all religions and religious beliefs are an insult to the 21st century informed and rational mind
wilie123 3 years ago 8
Yeah whats that, like 20% of the population?
buffdaddy3144 3 years ago
This video is one hundred percent on target, and who ever disagrees is just denying the fact that Hell and religion make no sense. He would prefer to cling on to something non existent or that isn't there rather than cling to reason and logic which is irrefutable by means of facts and perfect equations. But then again, the next person will come by and tell me "you just have to have faith, I have faith" and by doing so miss completely the point the video is making.
capitalflush 3 years ago
Awesome video.
TheFuror1191 3 years ago
the ethics of hell? hell has ethics? hell i god's way of saying "i made too many of you to care about or deal with and i don't feel like it so go away for thinking i'm not here!"
nothing ethical about that!
THEREIZNOGOD 3 years ago
The last few points you mention...
They're hard. I'm struggling with them myself. Realizing that you're going to die and that afterward, there is no heaven or hell, just...nothing. It's hard to swallow when you've known "something" as long as you can remember. It's scary.
Scentless 3 years ago 5
@Scentless Well it's not entirely that hard to envision. Just think about what it was like before you were born. Also no one knows if there is something after death. The most honest standpoint is to say we don't know.
MrBossnagger 1 year ago
@Scentless True, you have my sympathies.
RhyzBell 1 year ago
@Scentless First try to remember what it was like before you were born. you can't, because you had no consciousness, and no brain activity. in death all brain activity stops and you don't realize you're dead because you can't. there's no need to be afraid of death because you can't be afraid. There could be some kind of way your consciousness goes on after death and recycled but nobody knows for sure.
Brains are similar to computers, shut a computer off, and it can't process, or "think".
666lilnickY 9 months ago
There are 6.6 billion people on this planet. Of them, about 2 billion belong to the Oh-So-Perfect culture of Christianity. If simply being a Non-Christian is a crime that warrants infinite punishment, I have 4.6 billion friends I'd like you to meet. Hey! That's like one friend for every year that the planet Earth has existed. Fancy that!
grungefreak10 3 years ago
You use of God knowing that creation would fall and go to hell is not the view of the Latter Day Saints. They believe that there are layers of Glory which all inherit except the worst of the worst. So they make sense of that.
thatjimguy 3 years ago
The LDS change the word "hell" to "outer darkness" but, the concept is exactly the same. Also the various layers of "glory" are simply levels of damnation. These levels create a hierarchy by which the LDS philosopher kings can rule over the less valiant. In the context of this video, instead of one big carrot and one big stick, the Mormons have multiple carrots and sticks of varying sizes.
shanewendi 3 years ago 2
Religion? pfft God is nothing but a cosmic comforter to the supremely deluded.
Vamphetamine 3 years ago
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If God revealed to me that his plan is to reward people who have the courage to reject the cruel portrayal of him in the bible, and that he intends to punish Christians by burning them for eternity, then I as an unbeliever would be horrified and I would never be happy in that knowledge. I certainly would not feel love, or even respect for God. Why do Christians not feel the same for atheists and believers of other faiths?
BillyFreethought 4 years ago
God's plan is a decision. he decides who will be a Christian and who will not. Who decided before everything began who will be burnt in hell or sent to heaven.
JohnTraviss 3 years ago
What about those godless atheistic commies killing & torturing those poor defenseless Tibetan monks.?
The wave of the future is not the conquest of the world by a single dogmatic creed but the liberation of the diverse energies of free nations and free men. JFK
Free Tibet or boycott the Olympics.
steveascension 4 years ago
I am as outraged by the situation in Tibet as I assume you are, in fact it got a mention in one of my recent videos. However, by pointing out religions inconsistencies, I don't endorse rounding the religious up and putting them into concentration camps. I'm merely pointing out religions inconsistencies. Thats it, and it's plenty frankly.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The M Agnostic
I concur with most of your thoughts.
You have a good degree of substance
I thank you
steveascension 4 years ago
Very Good!
Children may not see violent movies, yet they learn about hell.
rob1n007 4 years ago 2
Please get a grip on your atheistic delusions.
Religion has been here since the dawn of time, beliefs systems have permeated every successful culture& it will still be here at the worlds end.
Have a nice day
steveascension 4 years ago
This doesn't mean that something is correct. Aboriginal beliefs persisted for perhaps tens of thousands of years, the ancient Egyptians had a codified belief system that was "mainstream" for perhaps as many as 3000. Were they right? For almost all of history, Humans believed that every stream, tree and mountain contained a spirit, which could be bartered with. Why do you not subscribe to this religion?
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The underlying neurological reasons for the human propensity for religion are well understood. It may be as simple as this. Humans that overreacted to external noises, attributing intent and intelligence to them, survived. If you over reacte 99 times out of 100 to the wind in the trees, what harm? However, underreacte when it isn't the wind, but a panther creeping up on you .... You get the picture, there is clear evolutionary benefit to suspecting intelligence and intent in nature.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The M Agnostic
The problem with modern man is just this! He's too modern. The older religions all had a deep sensitivity to the earth. Modern science is only now learning that it has made some big mistakes. We see these mistakes evident in global warming. The ancients deeply & religiously respected the water the land for whence all life comes from.
Have a happy Solstices
steveascension 4 years ago
well the dawn of time on earth was about 4.5 billion years ago
laziestslacker 4 years ago
I still accept the idea of hell, even though I wish it were not so.
steveascension 4 years ago
Well that is big of you, but somewhat premature. There isn't a shred of evidence for hell.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Have you ever heard of NDE'S? Near death experiences
Just goggle & you find so many postings that talk about heaven & hell experiences. You'll find stories about doctors & nurses, atheists who have come to believe in God, heaven & hell because of these experiences.
steveascension 4 years ago
There are a range of explanations for these. I'm sure you can google them on your own. They fall into the category of personal experience. They cannot be independently verified for example, and those that report "floating" above their bodies, are curiously incapable of describing or identifying objects visible only from that vantage point.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Have you ever heard of NDE'S?
Well, I've heard of NDE's and if you consider them evidence of an afterlife, then you've been reading sources that cherry-pick the NDE cases they tell you about, and neglect to enlighten you on the scientific study of the phenomena, which pretty clearly demonstrates it to be something that happens in your brain in response to extreme stress, or oxygen deprivation. The things you might not know about NDE's include such things as the experience being...
MightyTiny 4 years ago
...culture, and belief-specific. Meaning that while a Christian may see Christ, a devout Elvis fan may see Elvis, and people of other religions or devotions will see the objects of their worship. And while in the West it's an experience of a meeting with some figure that tells you it isn't your time yet, in India, a scenario reported usually includes some sort of bureaucracy, and a clerical error that led you to be there, and which is why you've been sent back...
MightyTiny 4 years ago
...NDE's can also be reproduced in situations where the person is not dying, further demonstrating that the event is of a psychological, subjective nature, and does not reflect any external reality. Some people have a bad experience, but there bad and good experiences don't line up with any religion, so that, say, Christians exclusively would have a "heavenly" scenario. So no, NDE's certainly aren't evidence of an afterlife, of either...
MightyTiny 4 years ago
...hell or a heaven, even if they feel genuine and personally convincing to those experiencers who aren't aware of the naturalistic explanations, and evidence. Personal conviction is not evidence.
MightyTiny 4 years ago
Mighty Tin
as one of the greatest literary minds this world has known could write;
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your (atheistic) philosophy.
steveascension 4 years ago
on the contrary, we'll swallow anything. Aliens, the matrix or even your God. Just supply the evidence. Why is this so hard to grasp?
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Sure there are. But if those things are of any relevance to us, have any effect on the Universe, they tend to leave behind evidence, and are not contradicted by evidence. Such as is in the case of NDE's which have been determined, as explained, to be of natural origin, a subjective internal experience. There is no integrity in ignoring evidence you don't like, just to keep believing things that go against that evidence.
MightyTiny 4 years ago
The M Agnostic
"However, if you consider carefully, you'll note that as society becomes richer, more equal and more educated, punishment has become far more humane,"
I can agree on this point from your post "humanness" but only in the treatment of crime from a western world perspective.
steveascension 4 years ago
Well this is obviously wrong. India, Asia and even China have cleaned up their act, and some of the "western" countries have regressed. It's a jagged saw tooth with a clear trend, toward more humane treatment as society can afford it.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
To say that china has cleaned up it act is misleading & wrong. What chance did the Chinese hostage taker get on the bus last week in China? What respect do believers get in China? I can cut & paste numerous documented accounts of arrests this year alone in China. The burning alive of missionary father & his two sons in a car by a raging mob speaks wonders for India progress. The caste system that permeates Indian society speaks volumes for truth justice & the progress of man!
steveascension 4 years ago
I'm not claiming China or India is a paradise. Try and have some nuance, and while you are doing that throw in a big cold splash of objectivity. The US is currently reviled around the world for an illegal war which may have claimed as many as a million lives, in a population of 28 million. The US also imprisons 1% of its entire population, most of whom curiously, are black. Then, there is Guantanamo. No one here is getting the perfect nation crown Steve, but we ARE all gradually getting better.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The M Agnostic
latest post on china;
At least 80 people have been killed in unrest following protests by Tibetans against Chinese rule, the Tibetan government in exile says
steveascension 4 years ago
Why do you think this relevant? I'm not endorsing the Chinese government, and I will no doubt shortly be receiving petitions from my amnesty international subscribtion protesting the issue, which I will sign. What action will you be taking? Try and understand, I am merely objectively observing, that they are generally treating their citizens better than Chinese governments have in the past.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
1
The M Agnostic
"I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant."
I disagree to your statement of relevance for feelings. Most crimes are committed by acts of feelings. Revenge is precipitated by feelings that require action to be taken by the person.
steveascension 4 years ago
This merely reinforces my point. The reason developed societies place an army of objective intermediaries between victims and perpetrators is to PREVENT exactly what you are so keen on, a visceral, emotional over reaction. Revenge had utility when we lived in tiny intimate bands of hunter gathers, and the only "justice" available, was whatever damage you could personally mete out. Now the thirst for revenge is a useless emotion, worse than useless, basically dangerous evolutionary baggage.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
I wonder about the worth for your desire to eradicate "revenge" as a "useless, dangerous, evolutionary baggage" I speculate if it would be very dangerous to eradicate something that is necessary for human survival. HG Wells discusses these ideas in his novel Time Machine in which a utopian society exist in a deceptive lie.
steveascension 4 years ago
This is something quite sensible, given it recognises a prrimary drive and the danger of suppressing it. Nonetheless we use contraception, and have courts to prosecute uncontrolled rage or anger. I think we are safe ditching revenge. It's utility is zero, and it's worst downside (a massive global war) gives serious pause for thought. Nope, we should try, as far as possible, to eliminate revenge from society. Besides, look how well it's working for Albania.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The m atheist
The two definitive realities in our human record are death & taxes. Both are subject to the constant impacts of revenge & justice.
steveascension 4 years ago
We certainly require disincentives to crime in human society. However, if you consider carefully, you'll note that as society becomes richer, more equal and more educated, punishment has become far more humane, as well as being graduated to scale with the crime. In a society of unlimited resources however, crime would almost certainly be considered an illness to be treated, not a personal account to be revenged. A 3-0 God throwing people into hell is simply pointless & depraved squared.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The M Agnostic
"Crime would almost certainly be considered an illness to be treated, not a personal account to be revenged."
Tell that to the mothers & fathers whose children have been sexually violated & murdered by serial pedophiles. I have just mentioned one example here but as you know there are many, many more examples of premeditated acts of violence perpetrated on children & adults.
steveascension 4 years ago
Here you appeal to emotion, rather than taking an objective view. Of course these are terrible crimes, of course we reacte with a surge of adrenalin and a desire to take revenge. Yet, what good is it?
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The m atheist
I do believe that some of your points do have a certain validity about them. But I still like the idea of hell
steveascension 4 years ago
Wow, I find that really disturbing.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
The m agnostic
Humanity has always been subjected to the "Disturbing". No matter what you or I think or postulate the revenge cycle will never dissipate from the human or natural world.
Marya Mannes describes the natural revenge cycle well
"The earth we abuse and the living things we kill will, in the end, take their revenge; for in exploiting their presence we are diminishing our future"
steveascension 4 years ago
I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant. Your championing of revenge, and your misguided enthusiasim for it however, I DO find disturbing. Revenge has no useful function in a society of 6.5 billion human beings.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
1
The M Agnostic
"I don't find the existence of revenge disturbing, things exist and what we feel about them is quite irrelevant."
I disagree to your statement of relevance for feelings. Most crimes are committed by acts of feelings. Revenge is precipitated by feelings that require action to be taken by the person.
steveascension 4 years ago
2
Our humanity is I believe, hard wired on this matter. Those respected & idolized non violent ones who have walked our planet when their lives are stripped of the myths & the truths exhibit this same hard wiring.
steveascension 4 years ago
3
Stripped down to its essence, justice is simply payback for the crime committed. This truth permeates all justice systems world wide whether we acknowledge this fact or not. This is the way it has always been since man has walked upon the face of our Terra firma.
steveascension 4 years ago
The M atheist
Have you ever been a powerless victim?
steveascension 4 years ago
Yes, but torturing their tormentor benefits no one, it's not even stupid, just pointless vengeance.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
My thoughts are presently reflecting upon those poor children who suffered under those terrible evil aberrant individuals who preyed upon those innocent children in those torture cells in Jersey.
steveascension 4 years ago
From a non Christian perspective I think hell is most absolute form of eternal justice ever devised. If there is no hell than those who have been put through hell here on earth must take revenge & justice into there own hands? To leave justice in the hands of those who are corrupt & complicit is inviting hell upon oneself. Tyrants, despots & those in positions of power over those who are powerless has been a never ending stain upon humanity.
steveascension 4 years ago
What possible utility does it have? Does it undo the harm done? Heal the broken, reverse the damage? Why not simply intervene to prevent the negative outcome? Hell is simply an attempt to up the ante, overwhelm critical thinking and terrorise people to accept a particular ideology. It is an evil, pernicious lie that should be exposed at every opportunity.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Do you think that your anti hell fixation can lead you into a human mental hell?
Could your anti hell position be a place where personal objectivity is lost to the real world?
steveascension 4 years ago
No, or at least I think this unlikely.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Jesus was the real evidence for the world.And for me belief gives hope for better tomorrow and i dont have to be afraid of death. And what if am wrong what do i lose? nothing. But if i am right, There is no better prize. Lol but i am having this same conversation elsewhere. I dont want to start allover again.
Jhairio 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
There are 30,000 variations of Xianity. Which one is "right"? Then of course there are the 100s of other religions you know absolutely nothing about. Your mistake is to think that it's a yes/no choice, God/No God, when in reality, no God is just one of tens of thousands of alternate options, and the only game in town supported by any evidence whatever. Besides, if you "choose" your brand of Xianity as a kind of metaphysical insurance policy, wouldn't a God see straight through such dishonesty?
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Besides, "Give Daddy a hug, or else." is no kind of choice at all.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
Bible says nothing is impossible for Him. So he can do it if he wants. He is not human, He can do things that we cannot understand. That is how i believe you can believe what you want.
Jhairio 4 years ago
Thats called "begging the question". God is so amazing, no evidence, certainly none that actually makes sense is required to explain him. Yet I can make the very same claim for the flying spagetti monster, as can muslims for Allah or 10th century Danes for Thor. Try again.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
What religion were you brought up in? (Dublin)
steveascension 4 years ago
Catholic ... switched to evangelical fundy as a teenager.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
God gave us free will so i believe He has not planned our choices for us. Joh. 3:16
Jhairio 4 years ago
do you believe that god is omniscient ?
poiliopizzuy 4 years ago
It's all way too confusing to me... & I still think seeing is believing. I'll stay agnostic.
FurrociousFerret 4 years ago
I didn't know there was a cold hell. Interesting.
nothingnesswithouten 4 years ago
Hey Man great video, I'm an atheist and Jehovah's Witnesses have found a loophole to the why if god loves us why would it make hell. One of my friends is a Jehovah's Witnesses and he told me that they don't believe in hell. Cause if god loves them he wouldn't make a person suffer forever. There hell is like a pit or something where your "mortal soul" just disappears just snuffed out of existence. How covenant do you think?
chevron694 4 years ago
Jews did not have an eternal hell .Hell is a Christian invention from the 4th century .Google the article Hell invented .The history channel did an hour program on hells origins , it might be available in public library .
flyingscience 4 years ago
I believe hell actually cam from Zoroastrianism
poiliopizzuy 4 years ago
Hitchens points out that God stands by with arms crossed uninvolved for more than 90% of the human races existance .Only very recently did religion spring up .
flyingscience 4 years ago
Good video ,I suggest a part 2 or redo it to include more information .Its estimated that about 106 billion people ( modern homo sapiens)have been born .Most of those people lived before 10 thousand years ago .These people had no instruction of modern religion.Why would God not care to guide any of them .
flyingscience 4 years ago
I sometimes wonder what it must have been like for the first creatures to mutate photo sensitive cells that would eventually evolve into eyes. It most have been confusing to have fuzzy, non-descript flashes of the visual world. The creatures around without this mutation them must have thought them foolish, impared, or possibly sage like. The ability to see your prey coming and anticipate it's movement must have appeared magical. What other spectrums could we be totally blind to?
lanc4268 4 years ago
This is supposed to be taken seriously, but instead of using the proper adverb, "Shitty" job, he uses "shit" job. It makes no sense either way, because if you were actually trying to be credible, you'd actually use more universal/scientific terms.
This video is an obvious sham, and done by the anti-religious in effort to discredit ppl's faith.
FrizzKid05 4 years ago
no because God is an ASSHOLE if he created a special place where he could send billions of souls to be tormented forever... He is doing a SHIT job if the Bible is supposed to be his word (which it is clearly not), because history has shown corruption using the Bible (dark ages, salem witch trials, inquisition, etc etc)
buffdaddy3144 4 years ago
Everything has been used for bad at one point or another. The Bible hasn't been proven corrupt simply because people have misinterpretted that action.
Let's say you tell your friend that you don't like something that a person did(ie-they stole something, or said something you didn't like), so your friend goes out and kills that person.
Does that make YOU a bad person simply because you told them that you didn't like what they did? Misinterpretation does not=corruption.
FrizzKid05 4 years ago
Your analogy is absurd. We are not talking about a couple of drinking buddies, but the claimed creator of the universe. Think.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
No difference between analogies. Analogies are ambiguous by natures. They don't designate individual scenarios. Just because something is misinterpretted doesn't make it corrupt..end of story.
FrizzKid05 4 years ago
If I knew my friend was going to kill someone based on something I had said, rest assured I wouldn't say it. God does not have this excuse. He knows. Not only does he know this outcome, but every other affected outcome from this interaction raidiating out to infinity. Your analogy is thus self evidently absurd to any modestly intelligent person, and cannot be applied to the creator of the universe, who (you claim) is all powerful, having complete foreknowledge of EVERYTHING.
TheModestAgnostic 4 years ago
You know, omniscience becomes an even more difficult and absurd concept if you so much as crack a quantum physics book.
GBart 4 years ago
Anything that's said can be used for evil. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be Freedom of Choice...He gives humans free will. You have the right to use it how you want, when you want, but you have to live with the consequenses.
Btw, GBart, it doesn't become absurd...difficult, yes, but not entirely improbable. Quantum physics or no quantum physics, it's not impossible. Besides, you're only talking by human standard. Then again, there's more than humans out there.
FrizzKid05 4 years ago
Christians came 340 years AFTER Jesus. The people who wrote the Bible never ate, walked, spoke, saw, or sat with Jesus. So how would it be having people writing a book after a Person who spread the word of God be even comprehensive or even READBLE??? Romans were there, and Greeks came after, and then the Christians who took of what they Like from what Jesus said and what they liked from the Pagan beliefs of Greeks and Romans (Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox ;) ).
pumpuki 4 years ago
here's a lil example (Christmas, consuming Pork, Alcohol, and much more...) I think you need to open your eyes and read more about the History of your religion. And who was Jesus and what was his Message. Now be honest, who would u believe more, what a person tells u NOW, or what some 1 tells u that some 1 told another some 1 that some 1 heard that some 1 else told some old guy that THAT person said so ???? .. Good Bye.
pumpuki 4 years ago
what if everyone goes to heaven?
lanc4268 4 years ago
Then why preach against the evil of sin? Why don't we just all kill ourselves so we can immediately enjoy everlasting bliss? I wouldn't want ANYONE EVER to believe with certainty that we are all destined for heaven.
GBart 4 years ago
I~nside
S~atan
L~ive
A~ll
M~uslims
IslamComeFromHell 4 years ago
I love you
you can actually think
marry me?
scallywag86 4 years ago
scallywag86 LOL why not ! :P
IslamComeFromHell 4 years ago
good on you.
SpaceboyProductions 4 years ago
This video es excellent, great explanation of Hell and Religion....... This type of videos should be made in Spanish and other languages.
carmenmaria4490 4 years ago
Excellent video, very good explanation of Hell and Religion....... is it possible to have this videos in Spanish?
carmenmaria4490 4 years ago
im a buddist because i got not bring my self to belive people that did not read or belive in god would go to hell when i looked at them id say fuck there just as nice as me !! and deserve to be as happy as i am
headhead9 4 years ago
This is a good summary of why it will take a long time to rid the world of religious insanity. Children are victims of their moron parents. They grow up to brainwash their own children with the same stupidity. All religions work this way. All religions survive thanks to the mental abuse of children. The preacher retards get to the child before their first science lesson, and the child never has a chance.
bobx2x2 4 years ago
It doesn't help to refer to religious people as morons. They just counter with atheists are arrogant and nothing progresses.
andytoz 4 years ago
He wants you to suffer forever because you lied about stealing from the cookie jar when you were three? Ok.
sonic8005 4 years ago
Deities, in general, are all selfish beings with great power, who NEVER question whether they are right or wrong in doing something. Questioning is never allowed of any deity... their will is to be absolute. This is how all sorts of religions work, and the reason why Christianity is like this is because it simply stole ideas from Pagan religions and slapped it together with parts of the Jewish faith.
sonic8005 4 years ago