14-15 Bishop Spong -VS- Dr. Martin - Topic : Sexual Ethics

[sgal88]

Pope Leo XIII already declared that Anglicans do not have any legitimate rite. He is not a real Bishop.

[misterjay85]

The problem is Spong has embraced independent thinking which scares Christendom 

[queuestak]

This is an embarassment to my tradition. These "intellectual" evangelicals hardly allow Spong to defend himself. It's clear that they don't respect him at all.

[iluvideos]

"Human tradition"? As opposed to...?

[NuyBard]

women at 5:30 says it all...

[Technoidmania]

I hear a lot of hate towards Spong.

All I see is a wise and loving man. Whether he is or is not a christian matters little to me.

If he is a christian - then there is a form of christianity I can relate to.

If he is not, then I was right in the first place and christianity is a bigoted and hateful religion

[kdurston1]

He really doesn't realize how ridiculous he sounds. "I believe this is corduroy, but it is leather, and wool and linen. i don't accept the tailors definition of corduroy... I think he had a limited understanding of fabrics in his day" lol

You don't even have to be a believer to start laughing at this guy! :S

[Undertaker202]

Hes quoting the fourth gospel

Translation- I dont believe any of the Bible is real. But the fourth gospel I believe even less. I am a neo-orthodox which means when I read the Bible, I dont believe it. I dont believe it was written under inspiration, I believe that I am inspirited when I read it to believe whatever I want.

[philnoll]

The people in this crowd are sheep to the fullest.

[philnoll]

at one ment - that was clever

[Vaekkrinhart]

"...false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness." 2Corinthians 11:13-15

[njexit8a]

Hmmm... what are you getting at with that verse? That has no place in this thread. Spong is no threat to you or the most important aspects of Christianity. If Spong was preaching hate (as God's words)... that would be horrendous and what that verse applies more appropriately. Spong spreads God's love and there is NOTHING wrong with that. Spong has brought more people to Christ than you can possibly understand. That is the work of a true Christian. Open your eyes.

[Vaekkrinhart]

Spong denies the physical resurrection of Christ. Denying Scripture itself. It couldn't be more clear. The resurrection of Christ is THE foundation of our faith, and the denial is the foundation of all things satanic. I have a made a right judgment (John 7:24, 1Cor.5:12). YOU have judged me the way in which one should NOT judge, by calling me a bigot. You are a hypocrite in this regard- another right judgment on my behalf.

[njexit8a]

Dude... you called the other guy a homo (even though he isn't).... and you think that doesn't qualify you as a bigot? Calling you a bigot is telling the truth. The truth is a "right" judgement. And my narrow-minded friend, if you think the "physical" resurrection of Christ is the most important aspect of Christianity --- you have missed the point of our religion!!!!! And... Spong never denied the resurrection, and disciples witnessing it... he just questioned the physical aspect of it.

[Vaekkrinhart]

It's just short for "homosexual"- besides, I was sick of seeing him call Dr. Martin an idiot and the host a slimeball or something. "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; and you are still in your sins." 1Cor.15:17 ... what is resurrection if not physical? look it up. "So will it be with the resurrecton of the dead. The body that is sown is perishaable, it is raised imperishable..." 15:42 Christ said of His own body "destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days"

[njexit8a]

In your opinion... what are the most important messages Christ has taught? Not what the church teaches.... but what CHRIST taught. Because what you and I believe are probably not too far off on that. That's what the emphasis of Christianity should be on... not the church-made rules or the literal meaning of many of the verses you quote.

[Vaekkrinhart]

Look, what I said was (if you go back and look) that the resurrection of Christ is THE FOUNDATION of the faith. And the verse I quoted says as much- if it didn't happen "your faith is FUTILE; and you are still in your sins." What part of this don't you understand?... The women went to the tomb- it was empty- the angel said, "He's not here; He has risen!... on the 3rd day be raised again." Luke 24:6,7 And after He rose, He said, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones..." 24:39

[njexit8a]

Wasn't the whole point of the resurrection to show the people... to prove to the people that Jesus was the son of God? I believe it is written about so that it was EASIER to have faith in the messages of Jesus? Personally, the way I see it, if someone doubts the facts of the resurrection, but still believes in Jesus and the primary messages he passed on -- doesn't that still show faith. Perhaps even more faith than someone who has more to go on-- those that wholeheartedly believe the "proof"

[Vaekkrinhart]

BUT Jesus SAID He would be crucified and rise from the dead- so how can one choose to believe just SOME of what He said? Did Jesus lie about His resurrection? I would not say they have more faith, but a different faith, and a different Jesus- a fake faith, if you will- empty and pointless, as far as salvation goes... AGAIN, like Paul said, "If Christ has not been raised, then your faith is FUTILE; you are STILL in your sins." Why can't you understand this simple verse?

[njexit8a]

Regarding your name calling of the other guy and the reasons behind it.... I have also been sickened by people on these threads calling Spong names.

[Vaekkrinhart]

You wrote, "That's what the emphasis of Christianity should be on..." But if Christ was not resurrected (PHYSICALLY- for that is what resurrection means), it all means nothing- just as Paul wrote. I didn't make it up.

[cryinglion]

I will say that the bishop pretty much kept his cool throughout the debate. I've seen other guests on the show blow their tops (even Dr Martin as well). And I do believe that the bishop is sincere in what he believes. But God's word is the final authority. And I do think that the bishop is not accepting of all God says. In a later interview with Dateline NBC, this same bishop says that hell was a creation of the church. Then, why would Jesus have to die for us if God didn't create a hell?

[PrettyBoySexy2]

@njexit8a Yes, you're right. Sponge has lead many more people to Christ, because Sponge doesn't teach that the parts of the bible that condemns their degraded lifestyle, such as homosexuality, perhaps, and a lifestyle that is not based on the life of Christ is also condemned. If Sponge taught the gospel without watering it down, making it of non-effect, then he would not have lead as many people to Christ, because they'd rather reject him, like many rejected Christ.

[njexit8a]

Do some more research. The science is overwhelming and cannot be debunked by born-again, bible-literalists.  I am comfortable with combining the truth of science with my love of Christ.... and joining all non-judgmental Christians in the kingdom of Heaven. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB AS MAN TO JUDGE and CRITICIZE. Apparently, you forgot that it God's job.

[Actus7]

njex > you''re not born-again, you're a 'religious' person at best.

unless ye be born-again of the Holy Spirit you shall Not enter the kingdom of heaven.

NO born-again believer would agree with Shelby Spong, this False teacher, Wolf in Sheeps clothing.

The bible tells us to EXPOSE False Teachers as i am doing here.

Re: "Evolution"...i have a 1st class honors degree in chemistry & was doing a PhD so i don't need science "tips"....but thanks anyway.

njex >>> you're Not Born-Again

[njexit8a]

You (the "born-again" proclaimers) are exactly alike the Muslim extremists. You both exclaim the same exclusionary things -- just different words. I am a CHRISTIAN. Jack Spong is a Christian. The only wolves around here are the people who condemn others, in the name of God.

[Actus7]

njex > Jesus Christ is EXCLUSIVE.

You think you can have it your own way...sorry you're on the broard road to destruction as Jesus Described !

Be rest assured, SPONG is an Anti-Christ , False Teacher, Wolf.

you'd be wise to take your concerns to God the Father Himself & Repent for Supporting such a Wolf.

[njexit8a]

I have taken it to the Lord. Again, why do you think it's your job as a man (or woman) to judge and condemn another? ANSWER THAT QUESTION. That is God's job to judge and face us.. not yours. Worry about yourself instead of imaginary wolves or your deep-rooted, paranoid fear of demons. Spong has more love in his heart for me and fellow man than you and your condescending, condemning self possess. I tend to gravitate towards those who are more Christ-like and listen, not people like you.

[Actus7]

njex you don't know your bible too well do you ?

the bible clearly tells the brethren to exhort, rebuke, reprove, correct with all long suffering brethren who are going astray.

i'm telling you this for your benefit...sad you interpret as a condemnation.

you compare 'born-again' proclaimers with muslims extremists ! that's proves your lack of God fearing knowledge.

Jesus Christ Himself said "Ye MUST be Born-Again or Ye shall NOT Enter the Kingdom of Heaven".

You're NOT Born-Again

[njexit8a]

I am a Christian and proud of it. I don't want to be part of a cliquish cult like yours that always points fingers and stones people. I am God-loving, not God-fearing.  It's people like you that cause Holy Wars, bomb abortion clinics, hate others who have a different belief. Stop waving your finger of hate and looking down upon others. IT IS HATRED.... and it's laughable and wrong that you hide it behind the word "truth." Show tolerance and stop living your life playing the judge for God.

[Actus7]

p.s njex > ask the Lord God, Jesus the Christ to take the Strong Delusion from you that you are currently under.

You're Deceived.....Exactly what scripture speaks about.

You're on the Broad Road to Destruction UNLESS you Call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to Save you.

You Don't Believe the Oracles of God, you Believe the foolish Ramblings of a Wolf, Shelby Spong.

Repent & Seek Jesus in Spirit and in Truth.

Repent for Believing in man's Vain Philosophies.

[njexit8a]

Nobody is hurting you or your fellow born-agains. Spong has helped more people than you can imagine. YOU HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED MY STATEMENT THAT SPONG HAS BROUGHT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO THE LORD, PEOPLE WHO HAVE PREVIOUSLY LOST THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Do you not think that is indeed a noble, Christ-like accomplishment? Instead, you ignore the question and ramble on spouting verses. Think for yourself and answer the question.

[Actus7]

njex > SPONG has bought thousands of non-born-again people to his Apostasy Doctrines which lead to Hell.

That's what Spong has Done !!!

Noble to bring people a False Doctrine ? I think Not !

You're Deceived njex, You're Not born-again & you're on the highway of Destruction if you continue to believe the Lies SPONG Spews.

[njexit8a]

What is worse, no relationship with God..... or having a relationship where you love him, respect him, and want to lead a life that is Christ-like? Your faulty INTERPRETATION of Spong is refusing to acknowledge the man has brought people closer to God. YOU ARE TOO BLIND TO RECOGNIZE IT. Again, think for youself.... don't keep spewing verses that is besides the point of what I am saying.

[Actus7]

njex > my last comment to you >>>

Jesus Christ said "Ye MUST be Born-Again to Enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"

SPONG Denies this , so do you !!!

You're Both on the Broad Road to Destruction.

You've been Warned.

You Can Read the bible & believe Scripture of Believe the Lying Filthly Anti-Christ False Teacher SPONG.

Take you pick !

You choose your own path......if you choose SPONG Over Scripture you're on the Road to Utter Destruction.

[njexit8a]

Actus -- you are still missing the basic premise of what it means to be a Christian and Spong does not go against that. You are not reading enough about the man's viewpoints. Open your mind a little and show a little tolerance for Christian differences. Please don't "warn" me again.... for every time you say it, I feel sorry for you and your close-minded heart. Stop judging others in the name of God.

[Actus7]

njex > just remember....you have chosen to believe the LIE.

Shelby SPONG is a WOLF in sheeps Clothing.

You choose to Believe in this False Lying Teacher.

You've been Warned !!!

[njexit8a]

Actus -- what denomination do you belong to?

[Actus7]

njex...why don't you do yourself a favour & start reading the king james bible, new testament.

everytime you come across scripture that you don't agree with or believe, Repent to the Lord & ask Him to reveal His Truth to you.

the bible speaks about the "Great Apostasy" "the Great Falling Away" before the coming of the Son of man, Jesus Christ.

Shelby Spong works for Satan.

The bible speaks about "False Jesus's" & "False Doctrine" & "Doctrines of Devils" this IS Shelby Spong !!!

[njexit8a]

Ignorance is bliss.

[foreverinchrist1]

If you will notice! Spong always says, His opinion. I wonder why he uses that word all the time.

[njexit8a]

We all have opinions. You have an opinion. I have an opinion. Spong has an opinion. He has a right to share his... and as he explained -- to promote discussion in the Christian community... and to purge itself of hatred towards those are different (gay, women, etc.) or think differently (that is, not of the fundamentalist view of Christianity). Relax people. Spong has some insightful thoughts that shouldn't be feared. He even admits that he doesn't profess to be right.

[FaithandReasons]

listening to spong is like listening to the mad hatter

[gospel77777]

the problem here is spong says "I think "mmmmmmmm. Walter goes by the word of God Glory To God

[ManInRevolt]

Haha,yeah,the problem xtians have with Spong is that he thinks.

[Actus7]

Spong is an Anti-Christ through & through.

This vomit filth is being 'preached' throughout seminaries & many mainstream traditional churches.

Spong is a Wolf, an Anti-Christ.

[njexit8a]

Actus.... calling someone an Anti-Christ? Wow! There is no reason for you to be threatened by this man. You should be ashamed of yourself for spewing your hatred. And for people to give your comment a thumbs up? wow.

[Actus7]

njexit8a > spare me your dribble ie "hatred"

telling the truth is not hatred you fool.

Spong is an Anti-Christ.

Threatened by Spong ??? LOL

I don't think so njex !

Spong is an Anti-Christ.

Hell Awaits ALL who Reject Jesus the Christ.

Repent of you sin & Trust in Jesus the Christ.

[njexit8a]

To carelessly use the term "anti-christ"... that's just plain wrong. What does that term mean to you? If you're calling him the anti-christ --- he's a threat to you. Choose another word. And for you, to CONDEMN the man for raising questions about long-standing church doctrine.... that is hatred. You are apparently not listening to his message, because he has NOT rejected Jesus Christ. Talk to people outside your close-minded cult.... and please wake up.

[Actus7]

njex > with all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.

why ask me did i call him "the anti-Christ" when you know well i called him "AN Anti-Christ".

njex > stop propagatin Lies....Telling the Truth is Not Hatred you dope.

Get off you 'new world order' philosophy which accuses everyone who speaks the truth....they get called a "Hater".

Seriously Stupid....& worse, disgusting.

njex > Only those Born-Again will Enter Heaven...You're NOT Born-Again at present

[njexit8a]

To call Spong an ANTI-CHRIST is lying. You are lying. AGAIN, WHAT DOES THAT TERM MEAN TO YOU? To say only those "born-again" will enter heaven is exactly the reason I will not be a part of one of the most exclusionary, close-minded religious groups. Spong has helped thousands of people who have left the church and who have not had a relationship with Christ. He has taught how one can love Christ, without sacrificing their common sense and critical thinking.

[Actus7]

njexit > you state "To say only those "born-again" will enter heaven......close minded"

njex....clearly you're not a christian.

Jesus Christ himself made that statement, NOT me !!!

If you Reject Jesus Christ Hell Awaits those who hate the Truth.

The bible states those that do Not Love the Truth, such as yourself, will be given over to a Strong Delusion, as indeed you have.

You defend this vulgar deception liar called Shelby Spong.

Repent & Seek Jesus Christ....there's hope.

[njexit8a]

Who told you that Bishop Spong or myself REJECTED Jesus Christ? That is an utter lie!!! I defend John Shelby Spong because I understand his message and KNOW that he has helped thousands of people have a relationship with Christ. A man who REJECTED Christ, clearly would not have done that.. That is not the work of a false teacher. And... Spong has said all along, all his opinions and ideas..he doesn't stake a claim to knowing. He is only communicating his ideas. It helps some, but not others.

[Actus7]

njex > Jesus Christ said "Out of the Abundance of the Mouth Speaks....Further, Speak as the Oracles of God not Man"

Here we have Shelby Spong ALL he does is Profess his OWN Opinion & NOT the Oracles of God, and you njex Agree with the man, so Clearly you Do Not believe Scripture.

If you don't Speak God's Oracles/Scripture you're NOT of God.

Don't Boast in your 'belief' Even the Demons believe & Tremble.

I can promise you, Shelby Spong is NOT Born-Again. Ye MUST be born-Again !!!

[robtul12]

Does everyone have to interpret "born again" the way you do? Your one of those folks who thinks that they're the only one who is right and understands it right and nobody else can tell you otherwise. I feel sorry for you.

[Actus7]

robtul12 unfortunately for you to ask that question clearly shows that you do not believe in absolute Truth.

Interpretation ?

Sorry, there's No Interpretation of man.

There's Only Truth.

Being Born-Again means the Spirit of the Living God has come into your being & given you new life, making your spirit alive.

Church Attendance does NOT make one born-again, Baby baptism does NOT make one born-again, false beliefs does Not make one born-again etc

robtul > you're not born-again

[robtul12]

That is not true. Of course there are interpretations. There always have been. You interpret the Bible a certain way and call it "truth" and think that nobody else has it right. The Bible cleary has metaphorical, allegorical, and symbolic language in it. When it says Jesus is the lamb of God doesn't mean Mary had a little lamb. "Born again" doesn't mean going back into your mom's womb. It's spiritual and non-psysical/non-literal. Therefore, it can surely be understood differently.

[Actus7]

robtul > you don't know what you're talking about.

you seriously have no idea.

you're like many who have plenty of 'opinions' with ZERO Experince.

[robtul12]

That's not an argument. Just bluster. All that I pointed out was that "born again" cannot possibly be taken literally. Therefore, it is symbolic or metaphorical language. Symbols and metaphors are open to be interpreted. Indeed, they need to be. You believe you're correct. Of course you do, no one hold a position because they think they're wrong. What do you know about my experience? Bishop Spong is in his late 70's. Does he he doesn't agree with you? Are you convinced you know everything?

[Actus7]

robtul > i know anyone who supports or defends "Spong" are not born-again.

Do i know what born-again is ? yes

do you ? No....you simply 'speculate' with you opinion.

Spong is an Anti-Christ, a false Teacher a Wolf in sheeps clothing....thus Not born-again.

i know what i state is true & i know that you speak mere conjecture & speculation.

a man with a testimony is not at the mercy of a man with an arguement.

you have an arguement, i have a testimony.

[robtul12]

You simply state or postulate that Spong is an "anti-Christ" and provide no argument other than your simple say so. Your hateful and judgemental. Two qualities that the Bible says are not of God. Spong doesn't agree with your fundamentalist views of Christianity and so you malign him and condemn him because he doesn't agree with you. I guess you tacity answered my question. You are convimced you konw everything and so whay anyone else says doesn't matter to you.

[Actus7]

robtul > firstly, you're not a christian, so you so called 'advice' is of the devil.

God tells us to speak as the Oracles of God.....Spong speaks from his own mind & opinion, Not of God.

thus, Spong is a false teacher, an Anti-Christ & Wolf.

there's no messing about with the Truth....without a love of the truth you will end up in Hell.

If you think man's opinions mean anything to God, you're utterly wrong.

God's Word is Above all.

Spong Denies God's Word...Anti-Christ

[njexit8a]

Oh... I have one question Actus -- where do you stand on evolution? Do you believe the Earth was created in 7 days and dinosaurs walked the Earth the same time man did?

[Actus7]

njex > i never try to 'prove' the bible to non-believers by debating 'science' vs 'bible'.

however, the bible is True.

Evolution is a LIE from Satan.

They have found fossils of Dinosaur prints with human prints intermingled.

People who claim to be Christian, yet Deny the Genesis Creation are Deceived & Deny God Himself.

God is All Powerful, He can Do Anything...Anything.

It's not a surprise He Created All in 6 Days then Rested.

[njexit8a]

To be a Christian does not mean one has to believe in the Genesis creation story.... that is not denying God! Completely absurd to say that. God is responsible for evolution. THAT IS NOT DENYING GOD. Think for yourself. You can quote all the verses you want... but by focusing on the minor details, you are neglecting the major premise of what being a Christian is all about.... to love God and Christ, to live a life of serving others, and be as Christ-like as one can possibly be.

[njexit8a]

I don't think you're understanding the positive influences Spong has had on people who have PREVIOUSLY abandoned Christ. You don't think that is a good thing? Love Christ the way you know Actus.... let me and millions of others in the world love Christ the way we know how. And please, don't call someone who thousands of people respect dearly, an "anti-christ". That is promoting hate.

[Actus7]

njex > sorry, you're utterly Deceived Or worst, a Liar.

Shelby Spong is a vulgar false teacher, wolf in sheeps clothing as the new testament describes.

ALL false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing are by definition ANTI-Christ.

You have been deceived by the vain philosophy of man, such as this Spong Liar.

I'll tell you again, Telling the truth is Not Hate.

But of course, people like yourself embrace all kinds of false doctrine to their damnation.

Spong is an Anti-Christ.

[sldeyo]

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

glory be to God!

[kjartans]

J. Spong is right and a courageous man. KS

[GreekOrthodoxy]

None of the heroes were outside the mainstream you slimy snake.

[brentduanefoster]

This is what I admire about Bishop Spong. Even though there had been much adversity thrown at him, he addresses it with the utmost intelligence.

[HondaRealty]

Wow. How what a stunning level of ignorance on the part of the Dr and host. These are the type of people who given half a chance would bring about theocratic dictatorship. Absolute loonies. Than god for bishop Spong! The more they try and trash the bishop the more stupid they look. Its a shame theres no Hell for this pair of clowns to go to!

[ChristHeartEternal]

spong is a politician lol

[soranneo]

One More Clip 2 Go fORGOT TO ADD

[ChristHeartEternal]

oh thanks! i was disappointed when it suddenly cut off.

[FaithandReasons]

*whew* lol! ...I'm over here on pins & needles listening to spong tap dance around the truth

[YoungCalvinist08]

If this were a WBA boxing match, Spong is getting canvassed every 5 minutes!

[NotYourTypicalNegro]

Thanks for posting this! I greatly respect him and his legacy in ministry.

[soranneo]

oNE mORE Clipc to go forgot to add

[NotYourTypicalNegro]

btw, I'm talking about Dr. Martin!