@1975ANTONIS Your NOT a very smart HellAssHole I can see by your pathetic comments. How old you 5. Your brain must be infested with aids at that age. Did you cop it up the Ass at a young age back in Athens, as this is real Greasy Greek Cock Sucker history. Fuck of this channel and go eat some of that Turkish SOUVLAKI.
@bhrisrov1 First of all you must learn how to write,we understand only the half of your bullshit and we can't laugh very much.Please learn quick and we will give you a new banana tree.You know what time is it?Yes little monkey,it's banana time because daddy is good.Greetings to your mom.I'll see her soon
@1975ANTONIS Hehehe Hairy Greasy Greek Baboon. You must be only 5 with comments like this. You will need more than a banana tree to hide that massive cake hole up your ass crack for the simple reason you have had to much cock in Athens, and has over stretched your greasy ass. You cant understand a basic Greasy Greek Lang for the simple reason, your a Cypriot.. OPA that came from Yunanistan (Greek) Modern OPA... LOLopodopolos
Or maybe its though's 12 gods crawling up your ass...OPA
@bhrisrov1 Opa is an exclamation of joy asshole,search in a human dictionary not in your monkey books.And go to a real human school to learn how a human must write.And i remember your mom said opa to me once when i fucked her very hard.Climb high on your tree now
Shame on you monkeys , what are those fucking fake stories,created by your fucking propaganda ? Liars , cheaters , thieves and brainwashed gypsies , stick your fucking propaganda into your ugly monkey asses. VETO and stay and die isolated for ever.WE THE GREEKS WILL BE YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE AND YOUR BIGGER FUCKERS.Screw you all,animals.
@gampcptn Nightmare?!We see you here during the day too.We can see you buying here,going to the doctor here,making haircuts,filling your cars with stuff bought from here.Not to mention that some even sell fruits near the border.Not to mention that we can put fuel in the car because of your people,who literally block our gas stations. You should also see them wearing bags on which it is written MADE IN MACEDONIA.They don't seem to mind that. Nighmare you say?Boring people would fit you the most.
If you will ever talk outside Fyrom on "genocide" they will all lough in the same way they loughed when you said that text in Roseta Stone inscription was writen in "ancient macedonian"
@2005defender I do not know whether they would laugh at me, but when I last read the report of the State Department about Greece, there, it was said something about Macedonian minority. Also, when I last read many, many things about the Civil War in Greece, many things were said about the ethnic Macedonians that had to leave Greece. Part of those people are now suing Greece and asking for their rights. Before you talk about laughing, read those things.
there is not such minority in Greece.. You propably confusing the Rainbow voters(2500 votes among 1,7mill voters in Periphery of Macedonia) who are the descendants of the Tito's communist puppets and attempted to steal the Greek land of Macedonia from Mother Greece during civil war on the same way your goverment nowdays is doing with the forgery of the Ancient History of Macedonia by building staues of Leaders from other Nations
@2005defender Do not tell that to me, tell that to the State Department. Also tell the representative of the UN that was in our country. She wrote the same as the State Department. And I am not talking about Rainbow.I am talking about many inhabitants of Kastoria, Edessa, Florina and the villages near those cities.Please, spare me the explanations, my mother is from there, I know what I am talking.On Youtube you can see them dancing on a music and songs on the language I speak.The SAME language.
I know what the UN repr. siad. Those people are the descendants of Slavs who remained in Greece after the Civil war. They are of Slav Ethnicity and non Greek identity and Rainbow is their political party,
Most probably you confusing them with Slavophones of Greek consciousness
Most of the people living in northern Greece are Macedonian. They were forced to change their names and denied their freedom to speak their Macedonian language after the 1913.
@1975ANTONIS Greasy Cock sucker. The only thing you will fuck is your own mum, but you will have to grease her up with Turkish SOUVLAKI first and imagine your inbred brother. I will then shave welcome on your hairy baboon chest of yours and use you like a door mat just like the other hairy greasy greek HellAssHole cunts like you!
@bhrisrov1 ''Great language''!!!But you wrote 4 words with no connection and meaning.I suppose this is your monkey language.Greek words written by monkey minds.Keep on trying monkey,you won 2 bananas.One to eat and one for your monkey ass.
@1975ANTONIS Not for me Baboon. Yunanistans are known well for shoving bananas up there Ass. Check it out in Athens where the poofters where invented. You have just won a free cock for your Ass Negroid.
@bhrisrov1 Blablablabla banana blabla banana...Fuck yeah,i can speak your language monkey.When we had the greatest civilization you were up on the trees and as i can see you are still up there and you will stay there for a long time.Jump now,a banana awaiting for you
@bhrisrov1 Monkey you are very funny,watch out now:brother-αδελφός kitap(arabian) bοοκ-βιβλίο,kokona unknown (what's that)?Kolomparas yes it's turkish and we use it when we fuck boys like you from the ass (ask your monkey ass,it knows better).Up on your tree now
In 1821, just before Greece was liberated, its people did not speak Greek. In 1829 when Greece became a state, for the first time, it was a small country covering the region of Morea, modern day Peloponnesus (Greece proper). The majority of people living in Morea at the time spoke Albanian, Turkish, Vlach and Slav. Athens itself, the cradle of the ancient civilization, was nothing more than an Albanian village.
@bhrisrov1 Do a great favor to all mankind and upload a video on youtube with all that stuff.We all need to laugh more these hard days.You are the BIG NOTHING of the planet,at least offer something and make us laugh.
@1975ANTONIS πωω αδερφε να αγιασει το στομα σου ωραια τα λες!
fyrom is just one shity country with NO identity,NO history, NO education and NO nothing so what they r trying to do is to steal what they can,no matter how...if skopians were neighbouring to france they would be trying to get napoleon...if they were close to italy they would try to call their nation romans...!
SKOPIANS DONT BUST OUR BALLS AT LEAST!
do something good for humanity,just one fuckin yime..GO SUICIDE!!ALL OF YOU!!FUCK OFF!
@manos7pirgos Άσε τα γατάκια να νιαουρίζουν αδελφέ.Είναι μια χούφτα μαιμούδες περικυκλωμένες από έξαλλους γείτονες που τους τα έχουν όλοι μαζεμένα.Εμείς,οι Αλβανοί,οι Βούλγαροι,οι Σέρβοι.Άντε να δούμε ποιός θα πρωτοπρολάβει να τους γαμήσει.
Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan... "
(Gotse Delchev, IMRO leader, Letter to Nikola Malashevski, Jan. 5 1899)
" There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." -former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
@GemistusPletho That same Denko Maleski declares to be Macedonian, and identifies as Macedonian, although he is against Ancient Macedonia. Do you know whose son is Maleski? Type Vlado Maleski and search. By the way, Denko was a communist and fighter for Yugoslavia, he openly proclaimed that he is against independent Macedonia. You can freely take him, we do not need him here. Yugoslavia does not exist anymore.
@GemistusPletho He admits his heritage, but he considers himself to be ethnic Macedonian. According to him, ethnic Macedonians exist, despite his thought that the ethnic Macedonians exist since the end of the 19th century and the beggining of the 20th. You are supporting an ethnic Macedonian. That is my point. Funny is not it?
No I am not. I am just pointing to one of your own politicians that admitted his Bulgarian roots. (unlike the mjaority of FYROM citizens who hide from them and pretend you called yourselves Macedonians for ages)
@GemistusPletho But you can not erase the fact that Maleski declares as ethnic Macedonian, and writes that his father also declared as such and that the Macedonian nation exists.
There is a fundimental difference. Your "macedonian" identiy wasn't created because your ancestors saw themselves as Macedonians. (unlike my Macedonian ancestors... why we speak Greek rather than your Bulgarian dialect because they identity with ancient Greeks). Your Macedonian identity was formed as a conscious attempt at political trickery. The ethnic Bulgarian context of identity was lost because of Yugosalv communists.
@GemistusPletho Whatever your read, whatever I say you just keep going to those Yugoslav communists, IMRO, despite the fact that you mix fasism with communism, IMRO with people that were never part of it, IMRO with NOVM, not to mention the situation about the Macedonians that lived in Greece and were kicked out. This discussion really is just waste of time.
@GemistusPletho I know you can't wait to kick them out. Attitude of a true Greek. I wonder what happens with your pride and power with your people when they cross the border and buy our products where it is written that they are Macedonian products. Every month just from Kilkis ( Kukush) we earn thousands of euros. The mayor there was asking the Government to forbid the people coming here. In the past we were the ones that were in your place, now times change.
Taiwan declares itself the "republic of China" .... and you don't recognize them. You can declare yourselves "Republic of China" too. Others a are not morally obligated to participating in you ultra nationalists insantity.
This issue could easly be solved overnight if you went back to cherishing your bulgarian roots rather than hiding from them. Instead you choose to antagonize us for nothing.
@GemistusPletho The issue would not be solved over night. By the way, we can wait. Why should we solve something that is not our problem? There were sayings that this new Government would make some concessions to us because the western allies that put it into power asked favors for all those money. We do not rush! And do not hope that when the issue of the name is solved other things would be forgotten. That is a dream.We would live in peace, but that is the only thing.Forget the good relations.
We tried to make a compromsie by offering you partial use of the name. fanatics in your country went the oppsite direction and started to build giant alexander statues.If you want good relations I would recommend you stop hiding your ethnic BUlgarian roots and jsut go back to calling yourselves Bulgarians.
If not , we can wait too. ANcient Macedonian and Byzantine Roman artifacts.... all written in Greek.... aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
@GemistusPletho The name is not yours so that you can offer us anything. I personally, do not want good neighborly relations. I would be happy with just normal and cool neighborly relations.OK, we can wait, we do not have economical crisis here. The people here are not on the streets. We are not under pressure. We too proposed a solution. Call us how you like, for the world we will be called with our name- Macedonia. The language and identity in the UN are already written as Macedonian.
We will have to agree to disagree. The UN still calls your the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It also respects the 1995 states that we have to find a mutual resolution to the name dispute.
Your name is Bulgarians. Its not the fault of Greeks your oppress your own heritage. Blame us for our fiances not for your own propaganda.
@GemistusPletho We would not agree even to disagree.The UN calls us the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but does not call our language and identity Fyromian, but Macedonian. You can easily check this.
UN still respects the 1995 resolution to resolve the name dispute. Change the name so we can resolve it. You can of course continue to stall and hope if recognitiion but you don't forever have the UN as a neighbour. We are your neighbour .If you destroy relations between us, We too can move to FYROM and chant "United Macedonia" (and we have 5 times your population). Your unprincipled apologists will turn on you eventually. (as they did with us as they don't care)
@GemistusPletho If you are our neighbor that does not mean you are something more! Stick to your borders, we shall stick to ours and problem solved. We will see who will win at the end. About the falling of someone, from what I see now, we are not those that fall and ask others for mercy. The problems in your country are just arriving. About the name, according to UN our temporary name is the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but the language and people are written as Macedonian.
Who are you kidding here? You very well know large numbers of your citizens are trying to usurp Macedonian history and insinuated Macedonia Greece is "occupied". These are effectively acts of war.
The UN agreed to abide by the 1995 interm agreement that states you are obligated to find a solution to the name dispute. You former Bulgarians need to find another name and your own idenity. Stop harassing Macedonians for theirs. Otherwise the other side can play nationalism too.
@GemistusPletho Large number of your people committed atrocities to our people too. Was not that act of war? Destroying villages, killing women and children. You can thank Tito for stopping us to interfere. According to the interim accord, we should try to find a solution, but that does not mean changing our identity. Nowhere in the agreement that is stated. It only talks about name of a country, not identity or language.
You only see the deaths of your own people. You don't see the attrocites they committed against Greek villages, Greek woman, Greek children. The interm agreement says not to usurp anyone's history I think we both know who's history that document references. The identity that comes to that history is not yours. It belongs to Greece..
@GemistusPletho Can you tell me which village was destroyed by NOV, NOF or any partisan movement? I can name at least 10 destroyed by your forces. Even without Ancient Macedonia, we are Macedonians. I explained that to you 100 times.
The name Macedonia is our name our cultural patrimony. Paeonia is not Macedonian, And all fanatics in FYROM are essentlally doing is substituting "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian", Even your language is just a Bulgarian dialect that was slightly modified by the communists and renamed Macedonian.
"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created."
Qualified historians around the world disagree with your government's propaganda. NONE claim you are descendents of ancient Macedonians. Any connection whatsoever you have to Macedonians is through Greeks themselves.
@GemistusPletho But also those qualified historians do not deny the Macedonian nation, neither they say we are something else. Maybe they deny our connection with the Ancient Macedonians, but they do not deny the modern Macedonian nation.
Virtually all accreded historians that have studied this issue claim your ethnic narrative is faked. Virtually no historian (outside of FYROM) claims you are descendent from ancient Macedonians. You confuse country name recognition with history. (they recognize you because they don't want to clean up the mess if they don't)
@GemistusPletho Nobody denies our Slavic ethnic narrative. Neither does deny us the right to call ourselves Macedonians, neither denies that we called ourselves Macedonians even if we did not connect with the Ancient Macedonians. Accept that.
You changed your ethnic identity before (from Bulgarians into macedonians). Nothing but extremism in your country is preventing you from going back to calling yourselves Bulgarians. That would be the best solution (and wouldn't require you hiding your ethnic roots.
@GemistusPletho We did not change anything. We are what we are. Accept that. By the way, this discussion is getting boring. When you find a place where we would put proofs, I will join again the discussion, because what we do is just repeating and repeating. Being a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians or not, we are Macedonians. Accept that. Even if we are not descendants, we lived in Macedonia 1500 years, we were the dominant ethnic group and we became Macedonians.
Indeed you are what you are... Bulgarians.Macedonian name is forever linked to Greek heritage not yours. The artifacts will never rewrite themselves to suit Gruevski nationalist propaganda.
“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness” - Krste Misirkov
@GemistusPletho With that artifacts, or without it, we are at least 1500 years here, and in that region, we were the dominant group. Our language was the most spoken one. So our identity is Macedonian. We do not need Gruevski or anybody else to tell us what we are.
Nonsense. The region switched hands many times. Prior to the Balkan wars the Turks controlled the region for hundreds of years. Your capital citiy was officially called a Turkish Uskub. The Turkis didn't find an urge to rename themselves "ethnic Macedonians"
@GemistusPletho The Turkish identified with Turkey, not with Macedonia, neither that meant something to them. They were conquerors, not people attached to the region. Neither they received something from the people living there. The Turks and the Christians lived in "separate worlds".
As were you former Bulgarian who conquered historially greeks lands. Your ancestors identified with Bulgaria... until a combination of Bulgarian and Yugoslav communist propaganda lead to erasure of your identity. You unfairly blame Greeks for you own mistakes.
@GemistusPletho Macedonia was not yours. Come to your senses. When it was yours after the VI century huh? Were you majority in Macedonia? No! Was your culture spread? No! What did you had in Macedonia? Few settlements in the south of the region and nothing more? That is a fact. We blame Greeks for ethnic cleansing, and you know that is a fact. But even with that you could not erase our language and culture in Florina, Edessa, Kastoria. There you still meet us, like that or not.
@GemistusPletho Ethnically erase Macedonians?! How can we erase ourselves? As far as I know you are not ethnic Macedonian, but ethnic Greek. Erasing someone's regional identity is not ethnic cleansing. And no one here cares about your regional identity, believe me. Use the name Macedonia in your regional identity as much as you like.
@GemistusPletho Substitute with someone that lived 5000 thousand years ago?! Just to clear the things, we are Macedonians, they are Ancient Macedonians. Have that in mind! It does not mind if we have something with them or not, we are not them. We have our own characteristics that they did not have.
Glad you recognize he was not a Slav. Now you need to recgonzie you are not Macedonians but Bulgarians who had your identitity destroyed by propaganda. (that continues to this day - see Gruevski)
@GemistusPletho We are Macedonians, you like that or not. We live here more than 1400 years ago, and our identity is Macedonian. If you think you can manipulate me, you have knocked on the wrong door. We are ethnic Macedonians.
No one suggest you can't live in the region but Paeoina is not macedonia and ethnic bulgarians are not "amcedonians". You if move to china you can become Chinese citizens you don't become "ethnic Chinese". If you move to America you can become American citizens not "ethnic Apaches". If ytou move to Macedonia you can become Greeck citizens,not bizarrely become "ethnic Macedonians".
Self-identification is right. Identity theft is not a human right..
@GemistusPletho In the time when the Slavs came to the Balkans was that Macedonia? Yes it was. After that, was it Macedonia? Yes it was. During the Ottoman rule, was this Macedonia? Yes it was. And now, you come and say this is Paeonia? Sorry, a lot of water flew from the ancient times and Paeonie became part of Macedonia. And nobody steals anything from you. You are Macedonian Greek,Greek from Macedonian, your ethnic identity is Greek, but your regional is Macedonian.We are ethnic Macedonians.
Sorry/. Ancient Paeonia is not "macedonia" and you are not Maceodnians. If you cared about the truth you would stop oppressing your Bulgarian heritage.
@GemistusPletho I do not live in ancient times. Sorry. It is the XXI century. It was not Macedonia, but after the conquest, it became. Unluckily for you, but, oh well, facts. What can one do..life is like that.
You learn the facts. Alexander and ancient Macedonians had nothign to do with Roman rule. Why are you fanatics building giant alexnader stattues? Its an implicite claim on Macedonia Greece/
You will fail though. No matter who recognizes you the Greek writing on ancient Macedonian artifacts will forver be a testimonial to the lies and hatred of your government (as well as your Greek-hating apologits that now pretend not to notice)
@GemistusPletho I am tired of explaining you that we want nothing from you. Neither the territory, neither your lands, neither the changing of the borders. You are very paranoiac and unluckily, I can not help you. By the way, nobody here even notices your people. Your people are here more than they are in Greece. And they do not feel unhappy when they buy stuff, drink coffee and see the inscription Macedonia. I talk about Greeks, not our people from there that come and feel like home.
I dont' belive you. 4 seconds of intenet research would reveal countless FYROM natioanlsits that claim to be related to ancient Macedonians and suggest Macedonia Greece is occupied.
@GemistusPletho 1 second of internet research would reveal countless Greek nationalists that say that we should be butchered like were our ancestors and that the atrocities done in the civil war against us should be repeated.
You mean the Greek civil war where you fanatics tried to detach Macedonia from macedonians and annex it to Vardar Yugosolavia? The Greek civil war right after WW2 when you occupeid Macedonia Greece along with the axis aligned Bulgaria? Have you no shame?
"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" - US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26)
@GemistusPletho The same US, whose President in his archives calls our partisans Macedonians?The same that calls our command Macedonian command?The same that recognized the decisions of ASNOM? If you read all, you would have known that this letter is from December 1944,when we started asking for United Macedonia, and when ASNOM was forced,on the second assembly, to forget United Macedonia and our people outside PR Macedonia. On that assembly, the US and UK participated and saluted its decision.
@GemistusPletho Axis aligned Bulgaria in 1946?! LOL Bulgaria was not part of the civil war. It was Yugoslavia! You really messed things up and do not know what you talk. In that war we asked for the basic human rights- self identification, language in schools, power to decide things that concern us, schools and cultural development. For that we fought. We did not want again to be the lambs your regime slaughtered whenever it liked.
@GemistusPletho NOV and IMRO were enemies. And by the way, only part of IMRO sided with the Bulgarians, because IMRO was banned in 1934. People like Dimitar Vlahov, Krsto Germov, Petar Shandanov, Pavel Shatev, Panko Brashnarov, Katerina Nurdzieva (niece of Goce Delchev) and others never aligned with the fascists.
There was no "Macedonia" in FYROM during WW2. Prior to Tito's renaming your region was called Vardar Yugoslavia. Tito also claimed to be interested in "human rights'... right up to the point he started helping your communist forefathers in macedonia Greece help communist Greeks murder other Greeks.
@GemistusPletho There was a fight for Macedonia. If we had a Macedonian state, we would not have fought. The Macedonian state was something we fought for, and thank God, we have it now. Tito was the one that did not allow greater autonomy for us, and sent in prison half of our people that demanded independent Macedonia.
Not true. You fought for Bulgarian interests. When Bulgaria lost you sided with communists to cover up your shame. Tito and Yugoslav communsits were the very one that renamed Vardar into "mAcedonia" and helped your erase the Bulgarian context of your identity. He imprisoned and killed any "macedonian" that claimed to be Bulgarian.
@GemistusPletho We fought for Bulgarian interests by attacking Bulgarians and asking for independent Macedonia? Maybe Strasho Pindazur fought? Or Mirche Acev? Or Vera Aceva? Or Mara Naceva? Or maybe Metodija Andonov Chento? Or maybe Nevena Georgieva Dunja- whose head was cut by the Bulgarians and put on the city square?
@GemistusPletho You quote the Bulgarian positions and claim them as true history? Since our people and ancestors fought against Bulgaria, the answer is quite clear, for those that like to know the truth. Thank Tito for being good with you too. When we asked him to save our people in Greece, he refused. Thank him for stopping the army not to intervene.
"The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government."
"From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required."
Ivan Hadzhinikolov memoirs on the inner workings of IMRO.
You have spent ZERO seconds investigating the countless Greeks murdered by IMRO fanatics using "macedonia" historical propaganda. Your whole identity is built on trying to ethnically erase Greeks by usurping our heritage.
@GemistusPletho This talk with you became unrpoductive. If I ask for proofs about the killings of the Greeks, and their number, we would see that it is far smaller that the number of my people killed by yours. Never the less, you would continue with your same talk...Is there reason to continue this talk? I think not...discussion with you has proven to be waste of time. Live with what you believe, fine with me.
@GemistusPletho We have nothing with the fascists. We fought against them. We did not kill as half as you did, neither did we kick out Greeks out of their lands as half as you kicked. When you will find proof that we erased tens of your own villages, then come and we will talk.
You have no evidence that Greeks killed more than you did. The oppsite is true. By collaberating with fascists and communists you ended up killing far far more Greeks (nearly 400K died during WW2 alone and another 120-200K during the Greek civil war)
@GemistusPletho For the fascists blame Bulgaria, not us. And we did not spark the civil war, we just took side. Blame KKE for that. Thank us for destroying Ohrana and Kaltcheff. Thank us for fighting fascists there too. So, as you can see, you killed more than us. Should I count to you the villages destroyed by you?
@GemistusPletho Nope! the majority supported NOVM and NOF. IMRO was dead since 1934. Those that claimed to be IMRO were just some people usurping the name. Of course, they ended before court. We carry the blame because we caught Kaltcheff and destroyed Ohrana? Maybe, it we see how "grateful" you were towards us 1 year after we done that.
Revisionist history. Doesn't matter if you support communsit or fascist tyranny. Doesn't matter if you oppress you bulgarian heritage and attempt to usurp our heritage. Doesn't matter if you threaten our territorial integrity. You are always the victims. (as this video shows0
@GemistusPletho If it was revisionism, the world would not have recognized what we did with Ohrana, Kaltcheff. The world would not have recognized us even in WW2. Yes, we WERE the victims. And the video shows true story of true people. Instead of being ashamed, you call the old lady a lying bitch. But do not worry, it is typical for the Greeks. Although, when they cross the border they reprogram themselves. You should see them here. You would not recognize they are from Greece.
No you committed atrocities in the name of fascism and communism. That's why western powers were against you during that period (that the shamefull hide today)
@GemistusPletho Western powers were against "United Macedonia", but not against the existence of the Macedonian state. People's Republic of Macedonia was recognized by the Western powers. At first the assembly of ASNOM, there were representatives of UK and USA too.
At the second assembly there were representatives form US, USSR and UK military missions in Macedonia
No. Western powers were against the existence of a Macedonian state until quite recently. They are unfortunately unprincipled though. I think many Greeks are considering leaving NATO since many of our alleged allies are contradicting themselves around this issue, Its a security organization that only looks after the security of its bigger members. Had they been principled they would have forced a regime change in FYROM to someone sensible. You aren't missing much,
@GemistusPletho Wrong! Western powers were present at the assembly where the decision for a Macedonian state was brought and they greeted that decision. When the Macedonian state put the question of our people outside our borders, the western powers turned against us. But even Roosevelt and others never asked for our complete destruction.
@GemistusPletho Wrong! The US and UK sent representatives to our state organs at ASNOM and greeted the decision brought by us to create the People's Republic of Macedonia. Why would they do that? Not to mention that even your country adressed us as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia
And why would they say this champ? (*the words both you and your apologists hide from)
"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" - US State Department Dec, 1944
@GemistusPletho Champ, I would quote myself again: "The same US, whose President in his archives calls our partisans Macedonians?The same that calls our command Macedonian command?The same that recognized the decisions of ASNOM? If you read all, you would have known that this letter is from December 1944,when we started asking for United Macedonia, and when ASNOM was forced,on the second assembly, to forget United Macedonia and our people outside PR Macedonia". See the date of your document!
Exact quote an source specifics rather than vague assurances. My experience has been FYROM natioanlists are experts at making claiming they can't back up with actual evidence. Much more common is twisting context with half truths. A perfect example of this is how many FYROM nationalist dishonestly twist Bulgarian organization IMRO as being an "ethnic Macedonian". Another example is how they constantly lie by pretending their identity isn't entirely a modern invention.
@GemistusPletho Then do not discuss with us, and we all will be pleased. And do not write political lessons on my channel again. I don't ask for them.
I didn't ask for fake history lessons either. You have no documents that suggest the US and UK governments officially supported the existence of "ethnic macedonians" during that period (the exact opposite is true) All you do is make vague assurances such documents exist. Either offer the exact document in question or don't be surprised when no one believes you.
If had anything beyond vague generalities and out of context evidence you would offer a quote and source document of that quote. You can't produce it because no such quote exists.(which is exactly why you depend on vague assurances) Reason demands evidence not assurances.
@GemistusPletho I have more than you can really imagine. Some friends in high places gave them to me. I can not put them here. The only thing I can say to you is their number, but that would not help you a lot. Since I use vague generalities out of context, stop discussing with me! End this discussion!
Take your own advice is you wish. Either way, for as long as FYROM is called "Maceonia" this issue will drag out. It didn't need to be this way. You decided you want to go down this path. You could have joined back with Bulgaria or found a new name so-as to give Albanians equal footing in a new nation. You decided to come after macedonians. This is the result of those choices.
@GemistusPletho Then ok, the issue will drag out, because we will be called Macedonia. And the things to be "worse" our language and identity will remain Macedonian, no matter the international name of the country. That maybe will be given a change, but the language and identity would not change. Keep your political advice for you, you need them more right now, since your country is in chaos.
But you have called "Macedonian" by the majority for a long time now (who simply don't care). The reason why your identity is still in turmoil though (and will be in perpetuity) is because you prefer nationalist propaganda than to deal with the reality of you ethnic Bulgarian roots. No matter who recognizes you the facts about your ethnic Bulgarian past will never go away. Ancient Macedonian artifacts will never rewrite themselves from Greek.
@GemistusPletho Our identity is not in turmoil, understand that. And we are not nationalistic, neither we want to take anything from you. If you ask us, the border is perpetual. Neither we want to change the artifacts. Understand that, with, or without the ancient Macedonians, the Macedonian identity and nation exist. That does not mean we want to have take other people's territory. What's done in the past- it is done. Nobody wants your territory.
Your identity IS in turmoil. Many of you claim to be dired descendents of ancient Macedonians. Others admit their Bulgarian heritage. The only thing "uniting" you is a united hatred of Greek not common identity. Your real identity is hate.
@GemistusPletho No it is not. All identify as ethnic Macedonians. Many claim that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians, but they do not claim to be direct descendants, because there are pure facts we are Slavs too. How can someone be direct descendant of ancient people?! You really think the world moves around Greeks, do you? Nobody even notices the Greeks. There are many of them that come and do some things, and nobody has done anything to them.Not to mention the companies that function.
You don't even know whats going on with FYROM nationalists. Many FYROM nationalists claim to be direct descents of Macedonians today. You are not an IOTA more Macedonian than any Bulgarian. (as the majority of FYROM NATIONALIST ARE DIRECT DESCENDENTS OF BULGARIANS)
Your demonization of he Greek people (to deflect attention away from you bizarre attempts to usurp our identity) is only further evidence we have legitimate concerns.
@GemistusPletho I do not know what is happening with our nationalists?! Was not I one of them? LOL. You really do not know to connect things. Once you say one thing, then another. If you are concerned, well, I am the last that can help you.
You claim no one wants our terrtorty is an outright lie. You very well know massive numbers of your citizens insinuation our country is occupied. (apparently thinking ethnic cleansing Greeks and identity theft is their "human right')
@GemistusPletho Massive number of your citizens call for partition of my country. Massive number call for destruction of my country. Even you call for that. You are also threatening to kick our people from Greece too. And you blame others? I told you two months ago, you are not criteria for intercultural harmony, moral values, peace, stability, cooperation between people. Everything you talk that you fight for is "proven" by your actions.
Most Greeks want to compromise. Greeks don't try to usurp your Bulgarian historical figures. This is quite unlike you former Bulgarians wher massive numbers of your citizens steal our symbols and produce endless "united Macedonia" rhetoric.
This is why I gave up (I used to be a moderate). I now want FYROM completely partitioned and will help Bulgarians and Albanians achieve that. (and if we get enough Greeks in FYROM... we too will start calling for "united Macedonia" just like you do)
@GemistusPletho Since you state all that, how do you ask others to be moderate?LOL. Do you know what is hypocrisy? If all Greeks are like you, then really we should laugh and celebrate your great downfall. Not to mention what would people do when your poor people come in our country. In the past, when you were poor, people here teased you and laughed because you did not have many basic products. It looks like that time is coming again. Now your own people run from Greece...your future is clear..
Your country has HALF the GDP/captia and TWICE the unemployment (and that's with Greece in a serious depression). The poverty in FYROM is like a third world nation compared to Greece. And I dont see your moral outrage at all the "United Macedonia" fanatics from FYROM.
Tme is running our for YOU. We have 5 times your population. As soon as we get enough people in FYROM we will call for a peaceful referendum to annex it to Greece, .Albanian and Bulgaria.Gloat while you can.
@GemistusPletho Wrong ma^aka,the time works against YOU.Just see the fact that out of somewhere around 200 countries in the world already 140+ have recognized us by our constitutional name - REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA.All we need to do is be patient - nothing more.As time goes by more and more nations will recognize our country and eventually you'll end up alone in your cries and the world will make you accept the reality.So whatever your politicians plan to do they better do it fast.Tick-Tack...
They recognize your name... not your retarded revisionist history. Not a single 3rd party historian on earth believes your government retarded claims you are decedents of ancient Macedonians.
All Greeks have to do is be patient too. Philip needed an army to Hellenize Peonia. All we just have sit back and watch as you continue to ethnically erase your own Bulgarian identity and Hellenize yourselves to "prove" you are "real" Macedonians. You are fucked and you did it to yourselves.
@GemistusPletho in your dreams,ma^aka.I suggest you read "On the macedonian matters" by Misirkov and his articles "The self-determination of the macedonians" and "macedonian nationalism",and then see who was Bulgarian and who was not,don't just post half-truths and miss-interprete and twist his words,anyone can do that.Phillip II conquered Greece after his Macedonians crushed the united Greeks in the battle of Chaeronea 336 b.c.,he didn't "unite" Greece,he CONQUERED it.There's a big difference.
I have read "On macedonia matters' champ. Unlike you, I don't omit the parts about FYROM's Bulgarian past.
'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?" - krste Misirkov
@GemistusPletho More Misirkov?Here you go:"I am a Macedonian and this is how I see the position of my country: it is not Russia or Austria-Hungary that are the enemies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia."They consider Macedonia to be Bulgarian in the ethnographic sense but find it unnecessary to waste their energy on getting to know the country better; as a result they know nothing about it, about its history, geography and ethnography.."
Half truths that omit the fact IMRO was a Bulgarian organization that applied "Macedonian' name games for political game for BULGARIAN interests.
If read ALL of Misirkov's writings you'd see the parts where he also claims to be of Bulgarian heriage and working for Bulgarian interets (including his very diary)
“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,” - Misirkov
@GemistusPletho I'm sorry?Did you miss the "I am Macedonian" part or you deliberately didn't want to see it?The IMRO was joint Bulgarian-Macedonian organisation that worked for expelling the ottomans from the territory of these countries,they had the common enemy.And as the saying goes EVERY ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND.later it was shown that Bulgaria only participated in the IMRO for Bulgarian,not Macedonian interests and the organisation was split in the 1920's as e result.
@GemistusPletho Paeonia was incorporated in the kingdom of Macedon and has been a part of Macedonian territory ever since,just try to dispute that FACT
Half of asia was incoporated into Greek kingdoms. Those people don't find an urge to oppress their own heritage and rename themselves "ethnic Macedonians",
Macedonians were self-identigying Greeks you "idiot". That's why its called the HELLENISTIC age. Not a single 3rd party historian on earth claims you are related to anceint Macedonians. (as they would be laughed out of academia). The only reason they support you is because they don't want to clean up the mess if you implode in civil war. One way or another war is coming to the balkans though. We will not be ethnically erased by you fascist bastards ashamed of your bulgarian heritage.
"I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of “Paeonia” as the most suitable for Skopje . [...]"Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia and the absence of any local national movement, we can talk of Macedonia only as a geographical entity not as a nation." - Ancient Macedonian historian Nicholas Hammond
This video is Bulgarian !!! There is NO Macedonian nationality !!!
chronis1972 1 week ago
@1975ANTONIS Your NOT a very smart HellAssHole I can see by your pathetic comments. How old you 5. Your brain must be infested with aids at that age. Did you cop it up the Ass at a young age back in Athens, as this is real Greasy Greek Cock Sucker history. Fuck of this channel and go eat some of that Turkish SOUVLAKI.
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 First of all you must learn how to write,we understand only the half of your bullshit and we can't laugh very much.Please learn quick and we will give you a new banana tree.You know what time is it?Yes little monkey,it's banana time because daddy is good.Greetings to your mom.I'll see her soon
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Hehehe Hairy Greasy Greek Baboon. You must be only 5 with comments like this. You will need more than a banana tree to hide that massive cake hole up your ass crack for the simple reason you have had to much cock in Athens, and has over stretched your greasy ass. You cant understand a basic Greasy Greek Lang for the simple reason, your a Cypriot.. OPA that came from Yunanistan (Greek) Modern OPA... LOLopodopolos
Or maybe its though's 12 gods crawling up your ass...OPA
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Opa is an exclamation of joy asshole,search in a human dictionary not in your monkey books.And go to a real human school to learn how a human must write.And i remember your mom said opa to me once when i fucked her very hard.Climb high on your tree now
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
Shame on you monkeys , what are those fucking fake stories,created by your fucking propaganda ? Liars , cheaters , thieves and brainwashed gypsies , stick your fucking propaganda into your ugly monkey asses. VETO and stay and die isolated for ever.WE THE GREEKS WILL BE YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE AND YOUR BIGGER FUCKERS.Screw you all,animals.
gampcptn 1 month ago
@gampcptn Nightmare?!We see you here during the day too.We can see you buying here,going to the doctor here,making haircuts,filling your cars with stuff bought from here.Not to mention that some even sell fruits near the border.Not to mention that we can put fuel in the car because of your people,who literally block our gas stations. You should also see them wearing bags on which it is written MADE IN MACEDONIA.They don't seem to mind that. Nighmare you say?Boring people would fit you the most.
macedonian89 1 month ago in playlist Macedonians Refugees from Greece
@macedonian89
If you will ever talk outside Fyrom on "genocide" they will all lough in the same way they loughed when you said that text in Roseta Stone inscription was writen in "ancient macedonian"
2005defender 1 month ago
@2005defender I do not know whether they would laugh at me, but when I last read the report of the State Department about Greece, there, it was said something about Macedonian minority. Also, when I last read many, many things about the Civil War in Greece, many things were said about the ethnic Macedonians that had to leave Greece. Part of those people are now suing Greece and asking for their rights. Before you talk about laughing, read those things.
macedonian89 1 month ago
@macedonian89
there is not such minority in Greece.. You propably confusing the Rainbow voters(2500 votes among 1,7mill voters in Periphery of Macedonia) who are the descendants of the Tito's communist puppets and attempted to steal the Greek land of Macedonia from Mother Greece during civil war on the same way your goverment nowdays is doing with the forgery of the Ancient History of Macedonia by building staues of Leaders from other Nations
2005defender 3 weeks ago
@2005defender Do not tell that to me, tell that to the State Department. Also tell the representative of the UN that was in our country. She wrote the same as the State Department. And I am not talking about Rainbow.I am talking about many inhabitants of Kastoria, Edessa, Florina and the villages near those cities.Please, spare me the explanations, my mother is from there, I know what I am talking.On Youtube you can see them dancing on a music and songs on the language I speak.The SAME language.
macedonian89 3 weeks ago
@macedonian89
I know what the UN repr. siad. Those people are the descendants of Slavs who remained in Greece after the Civil war. They are of Slav Ethnicity and non Greek identity and Rainbow is their political party,
Most probably you confusing them with Slavophones of Greek consciousness
type "slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia" or
Watch the video of YT
""Slavophone Greeks speak about themselves ""
2005defender 1 day ago
Most of the people living in northern Greece are Macedonian. They were forced to change their names and denied their freedom to speak their Macedonian language after the 1913.
makedonec702 1 month ago
@makedonec702 1913 you spoke a Bulgarian dialect .
2012 , you still speak a Bulgarian dialect . but you call it Monkeydonski .
MONKEYDONIJA TIMELESS SINCE 1991
FYROMSKI 1 month ago
Your real genocide will come very soon Monkeydonians assholes
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS
Of course it will, if you had it your way you fuckin' fascist!
VonLincoln1 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Fucking hairy Greasy Greek Yunan. Fuck Off
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Eat a banana monkey and die
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Go Suck a cock or 2 in Athena and choke yourself on cock juice and you F@cking die Hairy Greasy Baboon.
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Don't talk like that to your father boy,because i will fuck your mother again and you will have a brother soon.
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Greasy Cock sucker. The only thing you will fuck is your own mum, but you will have to grease her up with Turkish SOUVLAKI first and imagine your inbred brother. I will then shave welcome on your hairy baboon chest of yours and use you like a door mat just like the other hairy greasy greek HellAssHole cunts like you!
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Daddy will spank your monkey ass very hard,as you like it, bastard of Balkans.
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Only Balkan Bastards I can see is the most hated corrupted country, Greasy Yunanistan Bankrupt Greece, ya hairy baboon!
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 So you are a poor blind bastard too
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS _________ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ Διάσημοι αντλητής κώλο
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 ''Great language''!!!But you wrote 4 words with no connection and meaning.I suppose this is your monkey language.Greek words written by monkey minds.Keep on trying monkey,you won 2 bananas.One to eat and one for your monkey ass.
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS Not for me Baboon. Yunanistans are known well for shoving bananas up there Ass. Check it out in Athens where the poofters where invented. You have just won a free cock for your Ass Negroid.
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Blablablabla banana blabla banana...Fuck yeah,i can speak your language monkey.When we had the greatest civilization you were up on the trees and as i can see you are still up there and you will stay there for a long time.Jump now,a banana awaiting for you
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Monkey you are very funny,watch out now:brother-αδελφός kitap(arabian) bοοκ-βιβλίο,kokona unknown (what's that)?Kolomparas yes it's turkish and we use it when we fuck boys like you from the ass (ask your monkey ass,it knows better).Up on your tree now
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS FYI
In 1821, just before Greece was liberated, its people did not speak Greek. In 1829 when Greece became a state, for the first time, it was a small country covering the region of Morea, modern day Peloponnesus (Greece proper). The majority of people living in Morea at the time spoke Albanian, Turkish, Vlach and Slav. Athens itself, the cradle of the ancient civilization, was nothing more than an Albanian village.
TOYRKOSPOREEE!
bhrisrov1 1 month ago
@bhrisrov1 Do a great favor to all mankind and upload a video on youtube with all that stuff.We all need to laugh more these hard days.You are the BIG NOTHING of the planet,at least offer something and make us laugh.
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS πωω αδερφε να αγιασει το στομα σου ωραια τα λες!
fyrom is just one shity country with NO identity,NO history, NO education and NO nothing so what they r trying to do is to steal what they can,no matter how...if skopians were neighbouring to france they would be trying to get napoleon...if they were close to italy they would try to call their nation romans...!
SKOPIANS DONT BUST OUR BALLS AT LEAST!
do something good for humanity,just one fuckin yime..GO SUICIDE!!ALL OF YOU!!FUCK OFF!
manos7pirgos 1 month ago
@1975ANTONIS πλησιαζει ο καιρος..γιατι πολυ μας εχουν υποτιμησει..
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΓΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ
manos7pirgos 1 month ago
@manos7pirgos Άσε τα γατάκια να νιαουρίζουν αδελφέ.Είναι μια χούφτα μαιμούδες περικυκλωμένες από έξαλλους γείτονες που τους τα έχουν όλοι μαζεμένα.Εμείς,οι Αλβανοί,οι Βούλγαροι,οι Σέρβοι.Άντε να δούμε ποιός θα πρωτοπρολάβει να τους γαμήσει.
Monkeydonians FUCK OFF and DIE
1975ANTONIS 1 month ago
Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan... "
(Gotse Delchev, IMRO leader, Letter to Nikola Malashevski, Jan. 5 1899)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
(part 2)
" There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." -former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho That same Denko Maleski declares to be Macedonian, and identifies as Macedonian, although he is against Ancient Macedonia. Do you know whose son is Maleski? Type Vlado Maleski and search. By the way, Denko was a communist and fighter for Yugoslavia, he openly proclaimed that he is against independent Macedonia. You can freely take him, we do not need him here. Yugoslavia does not exist anymore.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
What's your point? He at least admited his heritage was Bulgarian rather than hide it and pretend it was "macedonian".
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho He admits his heritage, but he considers himself to be ethnic Macedonian. According to him, ethnic Macedonians exist, despite his thought that the ethnic Macedonians exist since the end of the 19th century and the beggining of the 20th. You are supporting an ethnic Macedonian. That is my point. Funny is not it?
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
No I am not. I am just pointing to one of your own politicians that admitted his Bulgarian roots. (unlike the mjaority of FYROM citizens who hide from them and pretend you called yourselves Macedonians for ages)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho But you can not erase the fact that Maleski declares as ethnic Macedonian, and writes that his father also declared as such and that the Macedonian nation exists.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
There is a fundimental difference. Your "macedonian" identiy wasn't created because your ancestors saw themselves as Macedonians. (unlike my Macedonian ancestors... why we speak Greek rather than your Bulgarian dialect because they identity with ancient Greeks). Your Macedonian identity was formed as a conscious attempt at political trickery. The ethnic Bulgarian context of identity was lost because of Yugosalv communists.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Whatever your read, whatever I say you just keep going to those Yugoslav communists, IMRO, despite the fact that you mix fasism with communism, IMRO with people that were never part of it, IMRO with NOVM, not to mention the situation about the Macedonians that lived in Greece and were kicked out. This discussion really is just waste of time.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@Bulgarian89
And we would kick them out again if they tried to eradicate Greeks and tried to annex Macedonia to Vardar Yugoslavia.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I know you can't wait to kick them out. Attitude of a true Greek. I wonder what happens with your pride and power with your people when they cross the border and buy our products where it is written that they are Macedonian products. Every month just from Kilkis ( Kukush) we earn thousands of euros. The mayor there was asking the Government to forbid the people coming here. In the past we were the ones that were in your place, now times change.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Taiwan declares itself the "republic of China" .... and you don't recognize them. You can declare yourselves "Republic of China" too. Others a are not morally obligated to participating in you ultra nationalists insantity.
This issue could easly be solved overnight if you went back to cherishing your bulgarian roots rather than hiding from them. Instead you choose to antagonize us for nothing.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho The issue would not be solved over night. By the way, we can wait. Why should we solve something that is not our problem? There were sayings that this new Government would make some concessions to us because the western allies that put it into power asked favors for all those money. We do not rush! And do not hope that when the issue of the name is solved other things would be forgotten. That is a dream.We would live in peace, but that is the only thing.Forget the good relations.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@Bulgarian89
We tried to make a compromsie by offering you partial use of the name. fanatics in your country went the oppsite direction and started to build giant alexander statues.If you want good relations I would recommend you stop hiding your ethnic BUlgarian roots and jsut go back to calling yourselves Bulgarians.
If not , we can wait too. ANcient Macedonian and Byzantine Roman artifacts.... all written in Greek.... aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho The name is not yours so that you can offer us anything. I personally, do not want good neighborly relations. I would be happy with just normal and cool neighborly relations.OK, we can wait, we do not have economical crisis here. The people here are not on the streets. We are not under pressure. We too proposed a solution. Call us how you like, for the world we will be called with our name- Macedonia. The language and identity in the UN are already written as Macedonian.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@Bulgarian89
We will have to agree to disagree. The UN still calls your the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It also respects the 1995 states that we have to find a mutual resolution to the name dispute.
Your name is Bulgarians. Its not the fault of Greeks your oppress your own heritage. Blame us for our fiances not for your own propaganda.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We would not agree even to disagree.The UN calls us the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but does not call our language and identity Fyromian, but Macedonian. You can easily check this.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
UN still respects the 1995 resolution to resolve the name dispute. Change the name so we can resolve it. You can of course continue to stall and hope if recognitiion but you don't forever have the UN as a neighbour. We are your neighbour .If you destroy relations between us, We too can move to FYROM and chant "United Macedonia" (and we have 5 times your population). Your unprincipled apologists will turn on you eventually. (as they did with us as they don't care)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho If you are our neighbor that does not mean you are something more! Stick to your borders, we shall stick to ours and problem solved. We will see who will win at the end. About the falling of someone, from what I see now, we are not those that fall and ask others for mercy. The problems in your country are just arriving. About the name, according to UN our temporary name is the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but the language and people are written as Macedonian.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Who are you kidding here? You very well know large numbers of your citizens are trying to usurp Macedonian history and insinuated Macedonia Greece is "occupied". These are effectively acts of war.
The UN agreed to abide by the 1995 interm agreement that states you are obligated to find a solution to the name dispute. You former Bulgarians need to find another name and your own idenity. Stop harassing Macedonians for theirs. Otherwise the other side can play nationalism too.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Large number of your people committed atrocities to our people too. Was not that act of war? Destroying villages, killing women and children. You can thank Tito for stopping us to interfere. According to the interim accord, we should try to find a solution, but that does not mean changing our identity. Nowhere in the agreement that is stated. It only talks about name of a country, not identity or language.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You only see the deaths of your own people. You don't see the attrocites they committed against Greek villages, Greek woman, Greek children. The interm agreement says not to usurp anyone's history I think we both know who's history that document references. The identity that comes to that history is not yours. It belongs to Greece..
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Can you tell me which village was destroyed by NOV, NOF or any partisan movement? I can name at least 10 destroyed by your forces. Even without Ancient Macedonia, we are Macedonians. I explained that to you 100 times.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
The name Macedonia is our name our cultural patrimony. Paeonia is not Macedonian, And all fanatics in FYROM are essentlally doing is substituting "Bulgarian" with "Macedonian", Even your language is just a Bulgarian dialect that was slightly modified by the communists and renamed Macedonian.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
(part 1)
"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created."
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Qualified historians around the world disagree with your government's propaganda. NONE claim you are descendents of ancient Macedonians. Any connection whatsoever you have to Macedonians is through Greeks themselves.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho But also those qualified historians do not deny the Macedonian nation, neither they say we are something else. Maybe they deny our connection with the Ancient Macedonians, but they do not deny the modern Macedonian nation.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Virtually all accreded historians that have studied this issue claim your ethnic narrative is faked. Virtually no historian (outside of FYROM) claims you are descendent from ancient Macedonians. You confuse country name recognition with history. (they recognize you because they don't want to clean up the mess if they don't)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Nobody denies our Slavic ethnic narrative. Neither does deny us the right to call ourselves Macedonians, neither denies that we called ourselves Macedonians even if we did not connect with the Ancient Macedonians. Accept that.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Others accept your insanity because they don't care (or hate Greeks) . Greeks cannot give you an idenity that belongs to us.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You changed your ethnic identity before (from Bulgarians into macedonians). Nothing but extremism in your country is preventing you from going back to calling yourselves Bulgarians. That would be the best solution (and wouldn't require you hiding your ethnic roots.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We did not change anything. We are what we are. Accept that. By the way, this discussion is getting boring. When you find a place where we would put proofs, I will join again the discussion, because what we do is just repeating and repeating. Being a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians or not, we are Macedonians. Accept that. Even if we are not descendants, we lived in Macedonia 1500 years, we were the dominant ethnic group and we became Macedonians.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Indeed you are what you are... Bulgarians.Macedonian name is forever linked to Greek heritage not yours. The artifacts will never rewrite themselves to suit Gruevski nationalist propaganda.
“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness” - Krste Misirkov
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho With that artifacts, or without it, we are at least 1500 years here, and in that region, we were the dominant group. Our language was the most spoken one. So our identity is Macedonian. We do not need Gruevski or anybody else to tell us what we are.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Nonsense. The region switched hands many times. Prior to the Balkan wars the Turks controlled the region for hundreds of years. Your capital citiy was officially called a Turkish Uskub. The Turkis didn't find an urge to rename themselves "ethnic Macedonians"
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho The Turkish identified with Turkey, not with Macedonia, neither that meant something to them. They were conquerors, not people attached to the region. Neither they received something from the people living there. The Turks and the Christians lived in "separate worlds".
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
As were you former Bulgarian who conquered historially greeks lands. Your ancestors identified with Bulgaria... until a combination of Bulgarian and Yugoslav communist propaganda lead to erasure of your identity. You unfairly blame Greeks for you own mistakes.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Macedonia was not yours. Come to your senses. When it was yours after the VI century huh? Were you majority in Macedonia? No! Was your culture spread? No! What did you had in Macedonia? Few settlements in the south of the region and nothing more? That is a fact. We blame Greeks for ethnic cleansing, and you know that is a fact. But even with that you could not erase our language and culture in Florina, Edessa, Kastoria. There you still meet us, like that or not.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Wrong. The Greek writing one ancient Macedonian artifacts attests to the fact we owned Macedonia first. Even the name Macedonia is Greek.
You are the ethnic cleansers. Your plot to ethnically erase Macedonians and substitute yourselves continues to this day.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Ethnically erase Macedonians?! How can we erase ourselves? As far as I know you are not ethnic Macedonian, but ethnic Greek. Erasing someone's regional identity is not ethnic cleansing. And no one here cares about your regional identity, believe me. Use the name Macedonia in your regional identity as much as you like.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89 Macedonians are Greeks. You are trying to substitute yourselves with macedonians.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Substitute with someone that lived 5000 thousand years ago?! Just to clear the things, we are Macedonians, they are Ancient Macedonians. Have that in mind! It does not mind if we have something with them or not, we are not them. We have our own characteristics that they did not have.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You are not Macedonians. You are Bulgarians. Paeonia is NOT Maceodnia. Alexander was not a Slav. Get back to reality.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We are Macedonians. Alexander was Ancient Macedonian and was not a Slav. With him or without him, we are Macedonians.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Glad you recognize he was not a Slav. Now you need to recgonzie you are not Macedonians but Bulgarians who had your identitity destroyed by propaganda. (that continues to this day - see Gruevski)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We are Macedonians, you like that or not. We live here more than 1400 years ago, and our identity is Macedonian. If you think you can manipulate me, you have knocked on the wrong door. We are ethnic Macedonians.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You are Bulgarians... more Bulgarian than the Bulgarians of Bulgaria according to Misirkov.
"We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves." - Krste Misirkov
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
No one suggest you can't live in the region but Paeoina is not macedonia and ethnic bulgarians are not "amcedonians". You if move to china you can become Chinese citizens you don't become "ethnic Chinese". If you move to America you can become American citizens not "ethnic Apaches". If ytou move to Macedonia you can become Greeck citizens,not bizarrely become "ethnic Macedonians".
Self-identification is right. Identity theft is not a human right..
.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho In the time when the Slavs came to the Balkans was that Macedonia? Yes it was. After that, was it Macedonia? Yes it was. During the Ottoman rule, was this Macedonia? Yes it was. And now, you come and say this is Paeonia? Sorry, a lot of water flew from the ancient times and Paeonie became part of Macedonia. And nobody steals anything from you. You are Macedonian Greek,Greek from Macedonian, your ethnic identity is Greek, but your regional is Macedonian.We are ethnic Macedonians.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
No you are Bulgarians who live in Paeonia. Paeonia is not macedonia. Bulgarian is not Macedonian.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We are Macedonians living in Macedonia. Sorry, that is the truth.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Sorry/. Ancient Paeonia is not "macedonia" and you are not Maceodnians. If you cared about the truth you would stop oppressing your Bulgarian heritage.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I do not live in ancient times. Sorry. It is the XXI century. It was not Macedonia, but after the conquest, it became. Unluckily for you, but, oh well, facts. What can one do..life is like that.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You fanatics even confuse modern nomenclature with ancient
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Paeonia_%28kingdom%29
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I told you that now it is Macedonia, and that is from the Roman rule. Learn the facts.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89 '
You learn the facts. Alexander and ancient Macedonians had nothign to do with Roman rule. Why are you fanatics building giant alexnader stattues? Its an implicite claim on Macedonia Greece/
You will fail though. No matter who recognizes you the Greek writing on ancient Macedonian artifacts will forver be a testimonial to the lies and hatred of your government (as well as your Greek-hating apologits that now pretend not to notice)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I am tired of explaining you that we want nothing from you. Neither the territory, neither your lands, neither the changing of the borders. You are very paranoiac and unluckily, I can not help you. By the way, nobody here even notices your people. Your people are here more than they are in Greece. And they do not feel unhappy when they buy stuff, drink coffee and see the inscription Macedonia. I talk about Greeks, not our people from there that come and feel like home.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
I dont' belive you. 4 seconds of intenet research would reveal countless FYROM natioanlsits that claim to be related to ancient Macedonians and suggest Macedonia Greece is occupied.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho 1 second of internet research would reveal countless Greek nationalists that say that we should be butchered like were our ancestors and that the atrocities done in the civil war against us should be repeated.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You mean the Greek civil war where you fanatics tried to detach Macedonia from macedonians and annex it to Vardar Yugosolavia? The Greek civil war right after WW2 when you occupeid Macedonia Greece along with the axis aligned Bulgaria? Have you no shame?
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" - US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho The same US, whose President in his archives calls our partisans Macedonians?The same that calls our command Macedonian command?The same that recognized the decisions of ASNOM? If you read all, you would have known that this letter is from December 1944,when we started asking for United Macedonia, and when ASNOM was forced,on the second assembly, to forget United Macedonia and our people outside PR Macedonia. On that assembly, the US and UK participated and saluted its decision.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Axis aligned Bulgaria in 1946?! LOL Bulgaria was not part of the civil war. It was Yugoslavia! You really messed things up and do not know what you talk. In that war we asked for the basic human rights- self identification, language in schools, power to decide things that concern us, schools and cultural development. For that we fought. We did not want again to be the lambs your regime slaughtered whenever it liked.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Dueing WW2 Bulgaria aligned with the Axs. Sinceyour ancestors were Bulgarians they too aligend with the axis (which is why IMRO did)
Self-identifiaction is a human rights. Idenity theft is not.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Bulgaria occupied Macedonia. We never alligned with Bulgaria. We fought against Bulgaria. Have that in mind.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Nonese. IMRO aligned with fasicsts. You widely supported IMRO until it became obvious you would lose the war.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho NOV and IMRO were enemies. And by the way, only part of IMRO sided with the Bulgarians, because IMRO was banned in 1934. People like Dimitar Vlahov, Krsto Germov, Petar Shandanov, Pavel Shatev, Panko Brashnarov, Katerina Nurdzieva (niece of Goce Delchev) and others never aligned with the fascists.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
There was no "Macedonia" in FYROM during WW2. Prior to Tito's renaming your region was called Vardar Yugoslavia. Tito also claimed to be interested in "human rights'... right up to the point he started helping your communist forefathers in macedonia Greece help communist Greeks murder other Greeks.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho There was a fight for Macedonia. If we had a Macedonian state, we would not have fought. The Macedonian state was something we fought for, and thank God, we have it now. Tito was the one that did not allow greater autonomy for us, and sent in prison half of our people that demanded independent Macedonia.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Not true. You fought for Bulgarian interests. When Bulgaria lost you sided with communists to cover up your shame. Tito and Yugoslav communsits were the very one that renamed Vardar into "mAcedonia" and helped your erase the Bulgarian context of your identity. He imprisoned and killed any "macedonian" that claimed to be Bulgarian.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We fought for Bulgarian interests by attacking Bulgarians and asking for independent Macedonia? Maybe Strasho Pindazur fought? Or Mirche Acev? Or Vera Aceva? Or Mara Naceva? Or maybe Metodija Andonov Chento? Or maybe Nevena Georgieva Dunja- whose head was cut by the Bulgarians and put on the city square?
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Here is the real history of your heritage. By pretending ot be Macedonia you help Tito achieve his dream of a divided Bulgaria.
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho You quote the Bulgarian positions and claim them as true history? Since our people and ancestors fought against Bulgaria, the answer is quite clear, for those that like to know the truth. Thank Tito for being good with you too. When we asked him to save our people in Greece, he refused. Thank him for stopping the army not to intervene.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
IMRO was PRO-BULGARIA.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
"The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn't label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government."
"From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required."
Ivan Hadzhinikolov memoirs on the inner workings of IMRO.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho IMRO did not exist then. It was banned in 1934.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
We are Bulgarians and we always work and will work for the unification of the Bulgariandom.” -Dame Gruev
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
"We are Bulgarians" (IMRO leader Gotse Delchev.. in his own handwriting)
tinyurl(dot)com/2vsvo3f
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You have spent ZERO seconds investigating the countless Greeks murdered by IMRO fanatics using "macedonia" historical propaganda. Your whole identity is built on trying to ethnically erase Greeks by usurping our heritage.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I spent much more than you spent investigating hundreds of thousands atrocities committed by your people towards mine.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Gibberish. Far more Greeks died at the hands of your fanatics than vice versa. (which your collusion with communist and fascists achieved)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho This talk with you became unrpoductive. If I ask for proofs about the killings of the Greeks, and their number, we would see that it is far smaller that the number of my people killed by yours. Never the less, you would continue with your same talk...Is there reason to continue this talk? I think not...discussion with you has proven to be waste of time. Live with what you believe, fine with me.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
And how many Greeks did your "innocent' fascist and communsit Bulgarian ancestors kill?
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho We have nothing with the fascists. We fought against them. We did not kill as half as you did, neither did we kick out Greeks out of their lands as half as you kicked. When you will find proof that we erased tens of your own villages, then come and we will talk.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89 '
Who is "we'? You weren't alive back then. The majority of People in FYROM greeted the facsists as liberators
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You have no evidence that Greeks killed more than you did. The oppsite is true. By collaberating with fascists and communists you ended up killing far far more Greeks (nearly 400K died during WW2 alone and another 120-200K during the Greek civil war)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho For the fascists blame Bulgaria, not us. And we did not spark the civil war, we just took side. Blame KKE for that. Thank us for destroying Ohrana and Kaltcheff. Thank us for fighting fascists there too. So, as you can see, you killed more than us. Should I count to you the villages destroyed by you?
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
IMRO was alignnd with fascists. The majority of you supported IMRO. You crrry the blame for their collusion with fascists.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Nope! the majority supported NOVM and NOF. IMRO was dead since 1934. Those that claimed to be IMRO were just some people usurping the name. Of course, they ended before court. We carry the blame because we caught Kaltcheff and destroyed Ohrana? Maybe, it we see how "grateful" you were towards us 1 year after we done that.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Revisionist history. Doesn't matter if you support communsit or fascist tyranny. Doesn't matter if you oppress you bulgarian heritage and attempt to usurp our heritage. Doesn't matter if you threaten our territorial integrity. You are always the victims. (as this video shows0
en(dot)wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho If it was revisionism, the world would not have recognized what we did with Ohrana, Kaltcheff. The world would not have recognized us even in WW2. Yes, we WERE the victims. And the video shows true story of true people. Instead of being ashamed, you call the old lady a lying bitch. But do not worry, it is typical for the Greeks. Although, when they cross the border they reprogram themselves. You should see them here. You would not recognize they are from Greece.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
No you committed atrocities in the name of fascism and communism. That's why western powers were against you during that period (that the shamefull hide today)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Western powers were against "United Macedonia", but not against the existence of the Macedonian state. People's Republic of Macedonia was recognized by the Western powers. At first the assembly of ASNOM, there were representatives of UK and USA too.
At the second assembly there were representatives form US, USSR and UK military missions in Macedonia
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
No. Western powers were against the existence of a Macedonian state until quite recently. They are unfortunately unprincipled though. I think many Greeks are considering leaving NATO since many of our alleged allies are contradicting themselves around this issue, Its a security organization that only looks after the security of its bigger members. Had they been principled they would have forced a regime change in FYROM to someone sensible. You aren't missing much,
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Wrong! Western powers were present at the assembly where the decision for a Macedonian state was brought and they greeted that decision. When the Macedonian state put the question of our people outside our borders, the western powers turned against us. But even Roosevelt and others never asked for our complete destruction.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Wrong! The US (and UK) once flatly denied your ethnic identity (during the early cold war when IMRO name games were much more apparent to everyone)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Wrong! The US and UK sent representatives to our state organs at ASNOM and greeted the decision brought by us to create the People's Republic of Macedonia. Why would they do that? Not to mention that even your country adressed us as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
And why would they say this champ? (*the words both you and your apologists hide from)
"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece" - US State Department Dec, 1944
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Champ, I would quote myself again: "The same US, whose President in his archives calls our partisans Macedonians?The same that calls our command Macedonian command?The same that recognized the decisions of ASNOM? If you read all, you would have known that this letter is from December 1944,when we started asking for United Macedonia, and when ASNOM was forced,on the second assembly, to forget United Macedonia and our people outside PR Macedonia". See the date of your document!
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Exact quote an source specifics rather than vague assurances. My experience has been FYROM natioanlists are experts at making claiming they can't back up with actual evidence. Much more common is twisting context with half truths. A perfect example of this is how many FYROM nationalist dishonestly twist Bulgarian organization IMRO as being an "ethnic Macedonian". Another example is how they constantly lie by pretending their identity isn't entirely a modern invention.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Then do not discuss with us, and we all will be pleased. And do not write political lessons on my channel again. I don't ask for them.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
I didn't ask for fake history lessons either. You have no documents that suggest the US and UK governments officially supported the existence of "ethnic macedonians" during that period (the exact opposite is true) All you do is make vague assurances such documents exist. Either offer the exact document in question or don't be surprised when no one believes you.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@macedonian89
If had anything beyond vague generalities and out of context evidence you would offer a quote and source document of that quote. You can't produce it because no such quote exists.(which is exactly why you depend on vague assurances) Reason demands evidence not assurances.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I have more than you can really imagine. Some friends in high places gave them to me. I can not put them here. The only thing I can say to you is their number, but that would not help you a lot. Since I use vague generalities out of context, stop discussing with me! End this discussion!
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Take your own advice is you wish. Either way, for as long as FYROM is called "Maceonia" this issue will drag out. It didn't need to be this way. You decided you want to go down this path. You could have joined back with Bulgaria or found a new name so-as to give Albanians equal footing in a new nation. You decided to come after macedonians. This is the result of those choices.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Then ok, the issue will drag out, because we will be called Macedonia. And the things to be "worse" our language and identity will remain Macedonian, no matter the international name of the country. That maybe will be given a change, but the language and identity would not change. Keep your political advice for you, you need them more right now, since your country is in chaos.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
But you have called "Macedonian" by the majority for a long time now (who simply don't care). The reason why your identity is still in turmoil though (and will be in perpetuity) is because you prefer nationalist propaganda than to deal with the reality of you ethnic Bulgarian roots. No matter who recognizes you the facts about your ethnic Bulgarian past will never go away. Ancient Macedonian artifacts will never rewrite themselves from Greek.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Our identity is not in turmoil, understand that. And we are not nationalistic, neither we want to take anything from you. If you ask us, the border is perpetual. Neither we want to change the artifacts. Understand that, with, or without the ancient Macedonians, the Macedonian identity and nation exist. That does not mean we want to have take other people's territory. What's done in the past- it is done. Nobody wants your territory.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Your identity IS in turmoil. Many of you claim to be dired descendents of ancient Macedonians. Others admit their Bulgarian heritage. The only thing "uniting" you is a united hatred of Greek not common identity. Your real identity is hate.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho No it is not. All identify as ethnic Macedonians. Many claim that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians, but they do not claim to be direct descendants, because there are pure facts we are Slavs too. How can someone be direct descendant of ancient people?! You really think the world moves around Greeks, do you? Nobody even notices the Greeks. There are many of them that come and do some things, and nobody has done anything to them.Not to mention the companies that function.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You don't even know whats going on with FYROM nationalists. Many FYROM nationalists claim to be direct descents of Macedonians today. You are not an IOTA more Macedonian than any Bulgarian. (as the majority of FYROM NATIONALIST ARE DIRECT DESCENDENTS OF BULGARIANS)
Your demonization of he Greek people (to deflect attention away from you bizarre attempts to usurp our identity) is only further evidence we have legitimate concerns.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I do not know what is happening with our nationalists?! Was not I one of them? LOL. You really do not know to connect things. Once you say one thing, then another. If you are concerned, well, I am the last that can help you.
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
You claim no one wants our terrtorty is an outright lie. You very well know massive numbers of your citizens insinuation our country is occupied. (apparently thinking ethnic cleansing Greeks and identity theft is their "human right')
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Massive number of your citizens call for partition of my country. Massive number call for destruction of my country. Even you call for that. You are also threatening to kick our people from Greece too. And you blame others? I told you two months ago, you are not criteria for intercultural harmony, moral values, peace, stability, cooperation between people. Everything you talk that you fight for is "proven" by your actions.
macedonian89 2 months ago
Most Greeks want to compromise. Greeks don't try to usurp your Bulgarian historical figures. This is quite unlike you former Bulgarians wher massive numbers of your citizens steal our symbols and produce endless "united Macedonia" rhetoric.
This is why I gave up (I used to be a moderate). I now want FYROM completely partitioned and will help Bulgarians and Albanians achieve that. (and if we get enough Greeks in FYROM... we too will start calling for "united Macedonia" just like you do)
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Since you state all that, how do you ask others to be moderate?LOL. Do you know what is hypocrisy? If all Greeks are like you, then really we should laugh and celebrate your great downfall. Not to mention what would people do when your poor people come in our country. In the past, when you were poor, people here teased you and laughed because you did not have many basic products. It looks like that time is coming again. Now your own people run from Greece...your future is clear..
macedonian89 2 months ago
@macedonian89
Your country has HALF the GDP/captia and TWICE the unemployment (and that's with Greece in a serious depression). The poverty in FYROM is like a third world nation compared to Greece. And I dont see your moral outrage at all the "United Macedonia" fanatics from FYROM.
Tme is running our for YOU. We have 5 times your population. As soon as we get enough people in FYROM we will call for a peaceful referendum to annex it to Greece, .Albanian and Bulgaria.Gloat while you can.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GemistusPletho We will see who will fall first...
macedonian89 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Wrong ma^aka,the time works against YOU.Just see the fact that out of somewhere around 200 countries in the world already 140+ have recognized us by our constitutional name - REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA.All we need to do is be patient - nothing more.As time goes by more and more nations will recognize our country and eventually you'll end up alone in your cries and the world will make you accept the reality.So whatever your politicians plan to do they better do it fast.Tick-Tack...
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
They recognize your name... not your retarded revisionist history. Not a single 3rd party historian on earth believes your government retarded claims you are decedents of ancient Macedonians.
All Greeks have to do is be patient too. Philip needed an army to Hellenize Peonia. All we just have sit back and watch as you continue to ethnically erase your own Bulgarian identity and Hellenize yourselves to "prove" you are "real" Macedonians. You are fucked and you did it to yourselves.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho in your dreams,ma^aka.I suggest you read "On the macedonian matters" by Misirkov and his articles "The self-determination of the macedonians" and "macedonian nationalism",and then see who was Bulgarian and who was not,don't just post half-truths and miss-interprete and twist his words,anyone can do that.Phillip II conquered Greece after his Macedonians crushed the united Greeks in the battle of Chaeronea 336 b.c.,he didn't "unite" Greece,he CONQUERED it.There's a big difference.
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
I have read "On macedonia matters' champ. Unlike you, I don't omit the parts about FYROM's Bulgarian past.
'And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?" - krste Misirkov
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho More Misirkov?Here you go:"I am a Macedonian and this is how I see the position of my country: it is not Russia or Austria-Hungary that are the enemies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia."They consider Macedonia to be Bulgarian in the ethnographic sense but find it unnecessary to waste their energy on getting to know the country better; as a result they know nothing about it, about its history, geography and ethnography.."
"
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
Half truths that omit the fact IMRO was a Bulgarian organization that applied "Macedonian' name games for political game for BULGARIAN interests.
If read ALL of Misirkov's writings you'd see the parts where he also claims to be of Bulgarian heriage and working for Bulgarian interets (including his very diary)
“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,” - Misirkov
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho I'm sorry?Did you miss the "I am Macedonian" part or you deliberately didn't want to see it?The IMRO was joint Bulgarian-Macedonian organisation that worked for expelling the ottomans from the territory of these countries,they had the common enemy.And as the saying goes EVERY ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND.later it was shown that Bulgaria only participated in the IMRO for Bulgarian,not Macedonian interests and the organisation was split in the 1920's as e result.
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
Sorry. Paeonia is Not "Macedonian" and Bulgarians that oppress your own heritage are not Macedonians.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho Paeonia was incorporated in the kingdom of Macedon and has been a part of Macedonian territory ever since,just try to dispute that FACT
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
Half of asia was incoporated into Greek kingdoms. Those people don't find an urge to oppress their own heritage and rename themselves "ethnic Macedonians",
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@GemistusPletho No,idiot.Half of Asia was incorporated into the MACEDONIAN kingdom,like Greece was.
dacki11 2 months ago
@dacki11
Macedonians were self-identigying Greeks you "idiot". That's why its called the HELLENISTIC age. Not a single 3rd party historian on earth claims you are related to anceint Macedonians. (as they would be laughed out of academia). The only reason they support you is because they don't want to clean up the mess if you implode in civil war. One way or another war is coming to the balkans though. We will not be ethnically erased by you fascist bastards ashamed of your bulgarian heritage.
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@dacki11
"I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of “Paeonia” as the most suitable for Skopje . [...]"Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia and the absence of any local national movement, we can talk of Macedonia only as a geographical entity not as a nation." - Ancient Macedonian historian Nicholas Hammond
GemistusPletho 2 months ago
@dacki11
And you lie. There was no "macedonian" nation prior to 1944 Tito's renaming of Vardar into "macedonia".
danstopicals(dot)com/fyrom.htm
GemistusPletho 2 months ago