@thoughtsurfer1 Correlation =/= Causation. The economic standing of Ontario may not be the economic standing of New York City. Ontario is simply going through better economic times and is able to keep more people employed, however if Ontario abolished the minimum wage law, their unemployment rate would drop even less. The point is that minimum wage laws increase unemployment more than it needs to be. Whatever percentage that is depends on various other factors.
@quarterxchange Ontario is on the same land mass as New york and Canada is one of (if not the) biggest trade partners with the USA. You're right in Correlation doesn't equal causation but its foolishly quixotic to say that they are simply going through better times.
Canada had better econ planning and more sound FINANCIAL REGULATION. This prevented the severity of the contagion in 2008-present. Look at Ireland, Greece, Iceland, their fin. reg. policies compare them to Canada, Norway, & netherl.
@fububalla There are several other factors that are also in play. It is much harder to fire workers in those countries and such. Regardless, there is no reason to suggest that somehow the minimum wage raises wages, because if raising the minimum wage raised raises, then it would make sense to raise it to hundreds of dollars and hour.
@quarterxchange look, this is a typical supply side argument. Pay the PEOPLE less, the bosses save money, so they will hire more and spend right? Just like with Taxes right? right?
This notion become less true the larger an institution is because it has more financial and institutional leverage in its locality. Its also s why it is an effective argument for those who don't actually run a business or run a small biz becuz it seems logical. Reality is those policies encourage hoarding of wealth
If you want to see how minimum wage laws hurt the economy and keep people with low skills unemployed why don't you take a trip to harlem and find out how many poverty stricken black teenagers are unemployed, living on the streets or in slums when they could easily be working, being productive, acquiring a little skill, a little work ethic, a little money, and such but can't due so because employers would be hiring them at a loss thanks to do-gooders like you preventing them from working for less
@quarterxchange The majority of people who earn less than $12 an hour (the real minimum wage) are adults, not teens. And since when do teens qualify as slave labor?
@quarterxchange The majority of people who earn less than $12 an hour (the real minimum wage) are adults, not teens. And since when do teens qualify as slave labor? I'm proud to be a do-gooder who's preventing them from "working for less."
I didn't say adults weren't affected as well. There are plenty men and women who have low skills that are entering the labor force who can't work because the minimum wage law prevents them from doing so.
You're proud to be a tyrant for the government making financial choices and decisions regarding the well being for people other than yourself, as if it's any business of yours whether or not a teen works for $7.50 an hour rather than $8.25 and hour. You don't know what slave labor is.
If MW is eliminated, employers would pay less than MW. That, of course, would send the message to the employee that his contributions weren't worth much. That, of course, would hurt incentive to work and, therefore, productivity. The worker would see that his contributions weren't considered important by the employer judging from the ridiculously low paycheck. Why, then would you expect him to work his ass off for you?
A smart company owner would pay the wages based off of skill. If they pay too little, then the workers will quit and their business is jeopardized. That's the free market, it's very fair.
@cincyblows No, it's a joke because you obviously have no understanding of basic economics. Yes, if the mininimum wage law was abolished, many people would make below minimum wage, but not those already making minimum wage or more. You fail to understand that there is a market for labor and that businesses compete for workers, and that businesses don't hire people for more than they are worth, if you are hired for minimum wage pay, then your labor is worth and will be paid minimum wage rates.
Additionally your arguments is ridiculous, and isn't even a strong argument for the minimum wage law. Businesses know how to find labor, and if need be they will hire people for more if that's what it takes to get people to work for them. A businesses won't cut the wages from someone who was working for $10 to $.01 and hour just because they can, they pay however much their labor is worth in the job market. We didn't have a minimum wage for most of human history, were people not working then?
Hey, if a living wage of $15 would improve the economy, why not a living wage of $100, $200, $5000 per hour! That would REALLY improve the economy - right?
There will always be a minimum wage and businesses will adjust accordingly. The only way to break the shackles of poverty is to either learn marketable skills or own/operate a small business. The consumer in the end is the one who will suffer,cause businesses ALWAYS pass on extra costs to end user.
its funny how he twists statistics. 47 million americans who make minium wage work for large companies like walmart/supervalue/kmart w/e who can afford to pay a bizzilion ppl minimum wage. The CEO's of those companies represent the "$12'000" and hour because they are CEO's of huge billion dollar cooperation what you want them to live in a trailer in shady pines trailer park? get real.
@awsomeshot to put it in perspective I work in "mid-size" business. we have about 1000 employees and the net worth of our company is probably about 120-200 million (trucking) depending on values of equipment and whatnot. I make 32k a year plus a few bennies. the CEO makes about 100k a year roughly. so about 3.3x what I make. He has been in the business for 30 years and earned it. That is a more accurate cross section of business that utilized trained/skilled labor.
flowerdrop1.....you are exactly right....im a former "liberal" that is finding himself leaning more and more libertarian....its common sence...you raise min wage, it cost small biz more to operate, therefore they lay people off..therefore more unemployed....therefore raising min wage hurts lower class more then it helps..its that simple.......remember the days when we had ppl pump gas for you? bag groceries and take them to your car for you? those ppl are prob on welfare now thanks2min wage.
@TheRickyp83 I get what you're saying and its true many small biz would be hurt, but it does seem pretty ridiculous that workers productivity has increased over the past forty years, yet their wages have remained stagnant (when adjusted to inflation). It seems to me that the CEOs have been pocketing the money. They now make over 200x more than their average employee. They used to make 20x more. Thats wrong no matter how you spin it. Workers deserve more.
A moneyless,classless,stateless communities of humanity expressing our freedom in creative harmonious cooperation for a world that is so POTENTIALLY AND ACTUALLY nourishing. Capitalism in any form, Statist or Corporatist is the denial of our common humanity in a politically manipulated,tyrannical armed MARKET SYSYTEM of artificial scarcity that is designed to perpetuate the enslavement of immense humanity for the material interest of the criminal ruling elite
@Sondre7 You so called conservative with your hyperbolic $50/hr, $10,000 simply displays the idiocy and sad state of the republican party right now on all issues especially taxes.
Obviously the lower & middle class is struggling. A gradual increase in minimum wage will cut into business net income in the short term but will engender medium term demand and promote economic stability.
@fububalla I am not a republican, I'm not very political. Yet I do know that almost all research into the minimum wage produce the result that it lower employment, and little else. Read the wikipedia article.
@Sondre7 I apologize for calling you a republican, I was a little upset. May I ask why the lack of a Minimum Wage and the cutting of taxes did not even slightly stop the gargantuan unemployment figures in the late 1920's-30s?
Then the MWage laws and higher taxes (along with other economic events of course) propelled us into the 50's 60's where the middle started to get a leg up in the world?
@fububalla I don't know much about history. But I do know that there are rarely only one policy variable explaining the course of events. My guess is that the minimum wage plays a small role on the economy as a whole. Although a quite large role in explaining unemployment among low-productivity groups such as young people.
@Sondre7 I agree with your first point but disagree with tthe second. Youth's aren't unproductive, they are unskilled! there's a difference. An 18 y/o has much more vitality than a 38 y/o wouldn't you say?
Youth's today principally lack education and motivation and understandbly so given our social priorities. Teens shouldn't have to depend on mcdonalds, walmart, or best buy to make money and contribute to society. Working for corps isn't contrib. to society, its contributin to a private biz
@Sondre7 Something to keep i mind about productivity is that employee productivity is controlled by the employee.. If their is no minimum nationally individual companies may find that workers will organize, seek contracts to raise their wages above a minimum and seek raises benefits ect.... before they produce anything.
Most everyday folks have more than 1 job now just to have any money left after your paycheck is gone. The companies don't want to pay that much so they go over seas to pay workers no benifits and $1.00 a day salary. Repubs and Dems are both out of touch with reality. Go Nader!!!
Who the fuck can get by on less the $12 an hour? I'm sure 7.25 was a lovely wage back in 1960. The majority of people in that wage level are adults. Just pop your head into a fast food place these days. Trust me, they got the money. Employers would pay workers nothing if they could. The proletariat must be protected from their oppressors through political action.
Minimum wage jobs are so because any friggin idiot can do them. You are not supposed to be raising a family on that kind of pay and if you are, the boss is not the problem, you just have poor self control and/or decision making skills. These jobs are for teenagers, wannabe rock stars, people that where their pants to low, their ball cap backwards and cant speak in an intelligible manner. Pull your pants up and then be aksin for a raise.
raising minimum wage kind of causes a problem. Its going to be very difficult to start a small business if you have to pay every employee enough to support a family. Then you have to wonder if its fair that a single person can make enough to support a family even if they don't have one.
Raising the minimum wage is not the way to fight poverty. It has to be done thru education & training. Raising the minimum wage only increases the basic costs of good & services (like a haircut) which is bad for everybody
I've done alot of min. wage jobs when I was a student (delivered newspapers, assembled fences, etc). Alot of youth today think they are too good to be doing this type of labor and that's a problem....
It is up to the workers as a whole to step up their game and demand a better pay.
Minimum wage breeds conformism in the minds of the employed and is used by the employer to create the illusion of paying less and appearing to pay fair.
The State is funded by corporations to carry out such policies of market intervention, creating monopolies.
"It's up to the workers as a whole to step up their game and demand better pay". Most, if not all states are " Employment At Will" states. If we working class people grew some hair on our chests and demanded higher wages, we're subjected to getting fired, disciplined, or some other kind of reprisal.
You don't know what you are talking about. Without a union, or lawmakers to fight for us, we don't stand a snowballs chance in hell !!!.
Ok, since you elaborated it like that, then yes, I agree with you 100%. The operative word I think is "we". Whenever I've approached my employers with a raise, I ALWAYS have something to bring to the table....
"Ive been here 3 years, haven't missed a day, made employee of the month 3 times, give you more than you ask for", etc.
However, I've had co-workers who were scared of their shadow, and would say :"Tone it down dude, we're lucky to have a job".........So much for worker solidarity!
So true Asperin. Let's also take it a step further: So many of us are so hamstrung by debt, that they feel they have to sell their soul to the company store so-to-speak.
If you're paying $400 month for an SUV, you are single, have no kids, pay $400 for a Playstation, $140 month for a cellphone,update your wardrobe every 2 weeks, and then eat out 4-6 times a week....
You've out yourself in a position to be "punked" by your employers. That also makes one a "pussy" for the powers that be.
Raising the minimum wage leads to less demand for workers (because they are an expense), higher prices for goods and services, and generally requires the government to print more money, driving down the value of the dollar.
You can't force the free market to work any way other than how it is meant to work.
In theory, yes you are correct, this job loss from increased minimum wage should occur. Yet empirically we have seen the opposite. For example, David Card and Alan Krueger's study on an increase in minimum wage found just the opposite.
and yet again we have seen the opposite of that poolerboy...card and krueger have been refuted by a multitude of economists and their study is flawed.
They've had more than one study and the contention is moot. Moreover, even if the negative findings of some researchers were to be accurate, minimum wage workers as a whole would be better off. The temporary losses of the few are offset by the wage gains of the many.
The question, whether a minimum wage is a good policy, and the question, how high should the minimum wage be, should be logically separable questions. That a minimum wage could be too high, is not an argument against a minimum wage set at a reasonable level.
Unless you think that the labor market is perfectly competitive then not only is it the case that the minimum wage doesn't necessarily reduce employment, it's actually possible that small increases in the minimum wage will increase it.
Well what should the reasonable price be? If $10 is reasonable, why isn't $20 reasonable? $10 is higher than $7, and $20 is higher than $10? If there is some optimal number, which somehow manifested itself into a natural phenomenon, why isn't this number worshiped as sacred? And if there is such a number--or ratio rather, given the market variables, such as inflation--what is it based on? What is the formula to determine it, in other words?
Optimity might be reached by the formula of marginal revenue equaling marginal cost (MR=MC). Each labor market would depend on multiple variables. The right minimum wage in one city for example might be wrong for another.
Again, the classical economics model of price floor minimum wage depends on the unstated assumption of perfect competition. The possibility of strategic behavior by employers is dismissed.
However, such behavior is not impossible. Miminum wage could work like antitrust laws
It's different per city because its different for every business, right? The minimum wage is whatever the employer wants it to be. If it isn't low enough, the employee wouldn't accept the job but look elsewhere for work. It's hard for employers to be manipulative when they're out of business. Also, seeing MR=MC reminds me of a chapter from Human Action. The text is called "Mathematics Versus Economic Logic" and is free online, as is the rest of the book, and his other works.
i studies sociology economics and these capitalists are nothing but cold hearted pricks. Look at Zimbabwe. and look at us! we are being exploited in comparison to them! in Zimbabwe, the low class unskilled workers could make a trillion dollars a day! we can't even make $10/hr. what the hell? damn you capitalists swine!
If 50 million workers started getting at least $12 a hour it would increase the buying power of the economy by leaps. Poor people don't buy things; they use their credit cards and ruin the economy.
This is a fallacious argument. If 50 million workers receive a higher wage than their buying power increases, but the buying power of their employers decreases these offset each other. There is a net 0 change in buying power.
it wouldn't be a good thing because 50 million workers would not be working at a mandated wage of $12--if their productivity is lower than $12 they will be unemployed.
Raising the minimum wage only worsens unemployment (and thus the economy)--it doesn't make things better.
@FoxPMcCloud If you have a choice of siding with the basic needs of workers (which is a high probability) and the strain on a business (which contains a variety of factors), I'd rather side with the workers. There's a good chance that most workers are producing wealth much higher than their wages. If employers are hiking prices out of spite, then they're just being jerks. You'd see less of that in worker co-ops.
@thoughtsurfer1 Developing production and living standards raise purchasing power. The purchasing power of whatever you hold is dependent on these factors. Minimum wage changes the wage without regard to anything else while cutting production (those laborers that could be producing but were knocked out of the labor market).
@thoughtsurfer1 It would increase the buying power of those workers that remain employed despite the minimum wage. But those potential employees knocked out by the minimum wage is another story. Also, it's not how many dollars you have in your pocket that matters, but they're purchasing power, which minimum wage ignores. I can imagine that as purchasing power goes down due to inflation and barriers to entry (low productivity), more people will be rooting for higher MW. It's just a distraction.
@thoughtsurfer1 if you increase min wage by 40% a free market will reflect that and unemployment will rise. Do you really think stocking shelves @ a grocerry store is skilled labor? monkeys can do it. flipping burgers @ micky d's? dude that is stuff highschool failures can do. If they do it well there can be room for advancement. how about instead we just cut taxes, wasteful spending, and put a maxium wage on bureaucrats.
@thoughtsurfer1 No it wouldn't because it would increase the price of goods and services because now the cost to provide goods and services is higher because they have to spend mroe on labor. Like the top rated comment says, if that logic works, why not raise the minimum wage to $10,000?
@quarterxchange Again, responding to all this idiocy. An increase in the F.M.W. would not necessarily (and probably not) increase the price of goods and services. We leave that to the Federal reserve nowadays. People are freaking broke. Much money will go to BANKS, paying off credit cards, mortgages, rent, insurance, loans.
You guys speak as if people don't have debt and current obligations. It is profoundly inane for you to overlook these points if you're going to seriously discuss economics.
@fububalla Absolutely it can assuming the workers are not laid off. The Federal Reserve also has not helped one bit. All the government can do is institute price controls to limit the rise of prices, which leads to less goods and services being offered and has done so in the past.
@thoughtsurfer1 You so called conservative with your hyperbolic $50/hr, $10,000 simply displays the idiocy and sad state of the republican party right now on all issues especially taxes.
Obviously the lower & middle class is struggling. A gradual increase in minimum wage will cut into business net income in the short term but will engender medium term demand and promote economic stability.
We will NEVER be a real capitalist system if wages remain as criminaly low as they are now. Even Ayn Rand belived that. Yes, we can blame both parties but it is Reagan/ neocon philosophy that has created the climate that has watched America's middle class erode and the gap between rich and poor widen. The republicans warn of "hurting business" if liveable wages are enacted. What more do real conservatives need to see the reality of what's taken over of their once great party?
There are now at least 46 Million Uninsured people in this country. No Health Care, Not even Basic. There are 20 percent more families living in bitter poverty now, as compared to eight years ago. (Before George W. Bush took office.) Meanwhile The Minimum Wage doesn't get raised for Ten Long Years. What the hell is wrong with Americans, that they can't make fair money agreements with each other, anymore ?
raising the minimum wage is dangerous...there are a number of problems with it...for one: if a company has to pay higher wages for every worker then they'll hire less employees...which is an even bigger problem
Sounds like 20 year old leapton88, has been watching too many Milton Friedman videos; "raising the minimum wage is dangerous"... What alot of nonsense. Raising the minimum wage is good for the economy, because it puts more purchasing power in the hands of the people who will go out and spend the money. The lack of consumer spending is what's harming our economy now, and contributing to the recession. We need to stimulate demand in the economy, not drive it down!
No. It doesn't put more purchasing power in anyone's hands. Companies can only afford to pay their employees so much money in total. Raise the minimum wage and the same money will get distributed among fewer people.
That you would even say that in response to to leapton's point reveals that you have absolutely no understanding of the argument he was presenting.
No, Jawajoey I have an understanding of the argument he was presenting. I just know that he's mistaken. It's just fundamentally incorrect to think that "raising the minimum wage is dangerous." But, people are speaking from different positions. Perhaps your family is very anti-union, or ultra-conservative Rich Libertarians. I don't know, and I don't care. But, I do know that raising the minimum wage is a good thing to do!
Wow, not a single argument in any of that. I can't help but wonder what the point of your response was, since it obviously wasn't to persuade anyone, debate the topic, or defend yourself.
Working people were doing basically twice as much work for the same wage or less. That's not supposed to happen. But that's exactly what did happen. Working people can't get a wage increase despite all our gains in productivity. This growing gap between how much we produced and how much we earned led to a bizarre paradox: as the economy grew, individual hourly wage workers, were actually becoming worse off. Now, go back to watching, 'Funny Lil Puppets in Monkey Island', 20 year old.
Wow, Jawajoey doesn't want an argument from me to persuade him because his mind is already made up! But, I'll speak truth to a closed mind anyway. The Economic Policy Institute reports that, since 1972, the median hourly wage for men has remained basically flat, and has actually declined for the bottom fifth of workers. What is more astonishing is that in this very same period, when workers were losing financial ground, their productivity -- their output per hour-- nearly DOUBLED!
But that doesn't resemble a convincing argument for raising the minimum wage, especially since you're talking about the median hourly wage.
Do you have evidence that the minimum wage workers increased in productivity as well?
And how would increasing minimum wage help the guy in the middle?
See, I'm not being close minded here, you're just not being convincing. It's clear you don't like the free market, and I doubt any YouTube comment is going to change your mind.
Well, Mr. Jawajoey the point I was making with The Economic Policy Institute Report was that if the median hourly wage has remained totally flat, imagine how much worse off people working for the minimum wage are! When the minimum wage is raised, it actually helps hourly wage workers who work for more than the minimum wage (workers who make maybe $10.00 or $12.00 or even $15.00 an hour.) The reason it actually helps them more is that employers have to compensate their existing workers.
Jawajoey says; "It's clear you don't like the free market." My question to you would be; "What makes you think we have a (quote) free market for ordinary hourly wage workers in this country? Is this "market" really "free"? Coercion marks the employer-employee relationship at every point. For most employees, pay and working conditions are neither negotiable nor a matter of free choice. It is "take it or leave it". And few are in a position to leave it- not when a job is a necessity for survival!
In a true free market, both the buyer and seller of work or services are free to bargain for the best possible terms. When that freedom is replaced by coercion, when one party is dependent upon the other for survival, there is no longer a free market, and at precisely that point the actions of the party with a monopoly of economic power become governmental. Since employers already have private economic governmental powers over workers, what's wrong with public government setting a minimum wage?
Yes, the wage market isn't quite a free market. That's what was so interesting about the data you mentioned, I wouldn't have thought it was that severe. Maybe the government could do something, but raising the minimum wage won't help.
An actual solution would revolve around adjusting all wages to better match actual productivity. Hurt stupidly over-payed CEOs and help workers get what they deserve. Sounds nice.
But raising the min wage would unfairly distort wages at that productivity level, and remove more jobs below that level. There's no reason to stop people getting paid for low-earning jobs. Not everyone is trying to make a living off every job.
"The reason it actually helps them more is that employers have to compensate their existing workers."
Is just a non-sequitur. No logic there at all.
You're making a pretty convincing argument for something completely different from minimum wage.
From my own direct experience, there is no quote "free-market" for ordinary hourly wage workers. Never has been, Never will be. To an extraordinary extent the United States is a business dominated, business-run society, and that means that human rights will always be subordinated to the drive of investors for profit. That's been my direct life experience, not some belief system or ideology that was pushed off on me, (by say, some Marxist professor at a university.)
Well, it's nice to see that a young person is questioning our basic belief systems and ideologies. This has nothing to do with economics, but as an old person, I am convinced that anyone who tries to push-off a belief system or an ideology on you, IS NOT YOUR FRIEND! That goes for ANY ideology or belief system about Religion, Economics, Politics, etc... Instead, I'd say, go for Direct Experience, don't discount the truth of your own life experience. To me, there is no quote "free-market".
The Economic Policy Institute is a left leaning organisation with ties to organised labor. Increasing the minimum wage can increase the value of mid level workers. This is because low value employees become unemployable and this decreases the supply of labor thus increasing its price. This is somewhat offset by the fact their relatively skilled workers find they must spend time doing some lower skilled work to make up for the loss of lower skilled labor.
how about the greedy bosses take a pay cut, to make the company becomes more competitive. it is the people who work on the factory floor who make the money, they are people who make company a success.
There's been a big change in America in the last 30 years, for ordinary hourly wage workers. Real wages stagnated in the 70's and started a steady decline throughout the 80's, and continued even through the so called "Clinton Recovery". The effort to undermine and destroy Labor Unions in this country peaked in the Reagan Years. In the Reagan Years America simply resended Article 23 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which guarantees elementary human rights of workers to organize.
Only Margaret Thatcher succeeded in smashing down the working people in England even better than the Reaganites here in the U.S. In 1985, America had the Highest Labor Costs in the world, (which you'd expect in the richest society in the world). By 1992 it's labor costs were second to lowest. For College Graduates the wages didn't start dropping until about 1987, when the "Reagan Reforms" got into high gear,... and they've been dropping ever since.
Well, it's good to see that you're at least on the right track to living wages, but I don't think $50.00 an hour is good enough. I won't be happy until minimum wage is $15,000 an hour, and I won't settle for a penny less.
There are now at least 46 Million Uninsured people in this country, (No Health Care, Not even Basic.) There are 20 percent more families living in bitter poverty now, as compared to eight years ago, (Before George W. Bush took office). Meanwhile, The Minimum Wage doesn't get raised for Ten Long Years. What the hell is wrong with Americans, that they can't make fair money agreements with each other anymore? Living Wage, I SAY HELL YES!
I would like to disagree with your idea of bitter poverty. What do people need in life? They need food, water, clothing, shelter, along with a few other necessities. Now I think you would be hard pressed to find a significant percentange of the population living without access to these necessities. The poor in America are considered to be rich by other nations' standards.
My comment was not to "compare" the wretched conditions of the poor in different countries. My comment was to say, "why the hell does it take !0 Long-ass years to get something as basic as The Minimum Wage raised ? Our economic system has made a clear choice, with immense, nationwide consequences: to devalue labor. For most of our history we valued work highly enough so that ordinary Americans could enjoy both security and a rising standard of living. Now a different choice has been made!
Why do you think people can't afford the goods they want to buy? Why do you think we are in this wage mess to begin with? It is because of minimum wage. On the surface, it sounds great; pay people more. However when you raise minimum wage it creates an excess supply of labor (from workers) and a decrease in demand for labor (from producers). Think about it; if you owned a company and you had to pay your workers more, what would you do? To keep production costs down, you would lay people off...
..., raise prices, or some combination of the two. So you are either contributing to unemployment or making your product less affordable. In addition, the people left over have to work even harder to make up for the work of the workers laid off. It is foolish to think that people should get paid more than what the service they render onto another is really worth. If you took an economic perspective and not a skin-deep analysis of the situation you would realize why minimum wage is a bad idea.
Hell yea brother! Print away! Free money! Increase in nominal wages is increase in real wages! Don't let anything like reality or economic law tell you otherwise! If I'm not paying $30.00 for a bean burritto by tomorrow, I'm protesting!
Head of Wal-Mart makes $12k an hour huh? He has a million employees making under $10 an hour huh? Ok so lets divide $12,000 by 1,000,000 people to see how much each employee would get per hour; Oooo wow man! They would each get 1.2 cents per hour! They'll be stinking rich!
I do not plan to remain unemployed and sponge off you good tax paying people as I think that is unfair, I have complications to resolve and look forward to working again, however, I refuse to work for less than £8 per hour, I dont think thats a lot.
I made sure I got fired becaues it sucked so bad. I now pay no council tax, no rent, no bus fares, and live an a tight budget of £60 per week to buy my food @ £30 a week and have £30 a week left for myself.
I brought this on myself, because I admit I took to drug when I was a young lad, and I blame no1 but ME for being on low wages, but surely No ONE who is working (especially hard long hours) be on the povery line. I have slightly more money unemployed than I would if I were working.
Granted I have screwed my life up and I used to earn the minumum wage at 31 because of life problems some of which Id brought about myself.
On the min wage I earned on 40hour week £178 - I was then being taxed and paid £20 a week bus fares and £60 per week for my apartment. I was a kitchen porter and it was very hard work doing anything the chefs didnt want to do.
If the minimum wage is effective in raising peoples wages without creating unemployment then why don't we raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000 an hour?
As labor becomes more expensive to hire business will use machines that were previously to expensive. And will cause business to scale back there operations employing less labor because it is now more expensive.
btw
The minimum wage has no effect on inflation, Inflation is a monetary phenomenon, caused by the Federal Reserve.
How can a presidential candidate(albeit a 3rd party candidate) be so ignorant of basic economics. Raising the minimum wage will cause unemployment hurting the very people he wants to help by pricing them out of a job. I wants wages to rise, but a minimum wage is not the way to do it.
Not only will raising the minimum wage cause inflation, and thus have essentially no effect. You also have to consider that most people who make minimum wage are high school kids who don't need a high income as they live with their parents. If your job doesn't pay enough, GET A NEW DAMN JOB!!! That's how the free market is supposed to work; if they don't pay enough for the difficulty of work, they won't be able to get help.
maybe you missed the whole picture. Inflation already went up, Big Macs and whoppers already more than doubled, etc. but wages are essentially stagnant, unless you are a greedy CEO. I can't even send my teenage daughter to work for less than $8/hr Kids know better nowadays than to work for less.
Inflation did already go up, so did the minimum wage. Actually this whole debate reminds me of something my father said to me. That before minimum wage, we had people that worked themselves to the bone for mediocre pay. I asked him: And what do we have now? I think it's the same situation. Maybe the problem is deeper than we realize. Socrates said (not a quote btw) that society will always have great problems as long as it is not ruled by a someone (or people) that is truly just.
raising minimum wage will cause instant inflation and people on fixed income will starve. the reason ? when your employer shells out more money to pay your wage, he will have to make up for it by increasing the price of his goods and services ! politicians are'nt too bright ....
You can't just think in terms of numbers.You have to think in terms of flow and productivity too.Now a days your average person can't start simple pipsqueek business without the high expenses imposed by speacial interest groups.Let me have my freedom and everyone mind your own business.IF what I do will not harm anyone go bug off.
Anyone who talks about economics doesnt understand that its a moral issue. SLavery was good for the southern economy does that mean we should have let it continue?
do you know how much turn over xcompanies have when they pay very low wages?
the compaines that pay slave wages wonder y no one stays they rarely give raises (very immoral worse than abortion not to give someone hard working a raise)
do you want 2 dollars an hr? no mininum wage also means your rate of pay can change at anytime
i really want to know do you hate overtime laws to?
what does what a CEO make have anything to do with a person just starting off and trying to get work who has no job skills. you are evading the issues like most left wing fascist do.
it is NONE of your business what contract i make with an employer. you do not have any understanding of basic economics. get an education . The word fair is totally an opinion. Do you think you are god?
Read Mises and Hayek. the two greatest economist of all time
isn't the average CEO pay in USA 13million annually? average pay for minimum wage annually is 10-12grand a year. well, your all luckier then me, i got a chinese boss who isn't paying me the minimum wage which is currently 8.75 in canada.
The social benefits of the minimum wage are to improve the lives of low-wage workers, reduce the number of hours they need to work to make a living, and reduce the demand for social services such as food stamps.
There are people (we know who) that say minimum wage increase destroy the economy. HUH? If that's the case, if the minimum wage were 25cents/hour, would we have 0 unemployment nationwide? No. Because greed would take the savings from the current minimum wage & pocket it all. That is how business works. Not fair, just greedy.
there are all sorts of pussys here that gave me me a thumbs down because hey guess what i think having a minimum wage is sick because it literally makes it illegal to work if no company is willing to pay you that minimum
all you pussys that gave me thumbs down come out and debate me like a man.
after all no company in america is forced to hire anyone so when you have a minimum wage it means that if no one will pay you that wage well i guess you have starve . very humane :(
i guess you dont "feel" about those people that wont get jobs as a result of a minimum wage. i guess you feel that if no one will pay them the minimum you feel it is ok for them to starve
you are a fucking dumb ass moron. you dont give a shit about our people especially those with no jobs kills and no ability to make the minimum wage
one more time no one can force an employer TO hire someone! wake up!
I understand where you're coming from, but it's really not as simple as that. Lets say for example that a retired gentleman wants to do a light job just to kill some time. That person does something really simple like say being a greeter. Is it fair to regulate that a company should have to pay some one $10/hr to say hello to people? Most people making minimum wage don't rely on their job as their sole supply of income (take high school kids for example). If they do, they're in serious trouble.
So because retirees and high school kids might work for minimum wage it should stay the same?
Don't you understand that paying a wage that can't support current minimum living costs is no different from completely eliminating social security. Its called social security for a reason, you know so people have the bare minimum required to live on so we won't need to hire extra police officers to stop them doing illegal things to support themselves.
Difference is workers are actually contributing to society, by paying taxes (instead of receiving them). Consuming things (producing profits for businesses), and at the same time being productive to whoever hires them. If businesses are performing that bad that they could not afford a minimum wage increase, then they should not be in business. You know, that free market stuff.
My statement wasn't that it should stay the same. I merely said that it should be regulated based on an individual's own criteria, and by the nature of the job. Someone with a family of 6, for example, needs more money than some one who supports only themselves. A high school kid doesn't need a ton of money by the hour to blow on alcohol. When someone works hard in their job, but the job doesn't pay enough to cover the bills, their extra needed income should be subsidized via welfare.
It seems like a system where peoples income is determined by a regulatory body would be susceptible to corruption, manipulation, and political pressure.
Which is why the regulating needs to be done by the workers themselves, as in a labor union. When you have a job, your pay is determined by these 4 things: the amount of profit your work generates, the difficulty of your work, how much it would cost to replace you should you decide to quit, and by the efficiency of the company that you work for. The reason I don't like the minimum wage is that it only assumes the fourth condition, that all companies make far more profit than they pay in wages.
Sometimes, however, you should consider that some jobs may not generate enough profit to pay $10/hour. (I admit that most do, but I'm arguing for the few that don't.) I worked in fast food for a year and a half. My boss talked of how he had trouble staying in business, and that he dreaded the upcoming minimum wage increase. It's clear that the workers there were content with what they made, but not the government. I didn't need the extra money; I worked there because it payed enough.
Now, speaking as a former minimum wage worker I can say that I don't think it's fair for my company to have to charge more for its products to fill my pockets. Had I not been content with my pay, I would have left. If enough people did likewise the company would have to pay more, or go out of business. That is what I call regulation, and it is up to the individual worker to decide if the wage pays enough for the aforementioned 4 factors. To decide if the work is worth the pay.
If you HAVE a MySpace Page and/or Facebook, SEND videos like this one to as many friends as you can!
I send them as comments.
Do you have "Hi5"? The postings work there, too! I found out you must be sure to ad the person's name or something to each comment sent so it does not come off as spam.
maybe the idea is to down grade the USA lifestyle to meet with the Mexican lifestyle..? easier to do that than bring up them folks and less dangerous for the government. after all wouldn't it be a shame if most all Mexicans could afford what we have in our lives, including guns and ammo for all ..? fucking government is too fucking big and intrusive.
How about creating a system of a 30 hour work week with the same pay as a 40 hour work week, with overtime and health care benefits from the employer? Of course, that plan would be an extension of raising the min. wage b/c living wages keep increasing---transportation, rent, utlities, etc.
Yeah the democrats are really bad about shutting out their own, and the media does a great job helping them do that. You can't say that all of the democrat presidential hopefuls got an equal voice on the old tube, that is silly. Can you imagine of the race was between Kuicinich and Paul? Would be way different, but that isn't a race the big wigs want to see.
you made a claim.- ¨´So seven thousand dollars an hour is reasonable when all the low wage workers are starving to death? What bullshit.¨ PLEASE TELL ME ON WAHT BASIS YOU CAN SAY IT IS NOT. TELL ME A LOGICAL REASON . DONT FEED ME EMOTIONAL PROGANDA. VORTE BOB BARR FOR FREEDOM. IF WWE HAD MUCH LESS REGUALTION IN THE MARKET PLACE THERE WOULD NOT BE LARGE CORPARATIONS AND NO ONE WOULD GET PAID SO MUCH BUT I AM SURE YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FACT . DEBATE ME DUDE. NO OPINIONS
I THINK YOU'LL FIND THAT CORPORATIONS DO VERY WELL WHEN THEY'RE ALLOWED TO PAY SLAVE WAGES TO EMPLOYEES ON THE BRINK OF STARVATION AS IS COMMON IN SINGAPORE, A TOTALITARIAN POLICE-STATE WITH A "FREE MARKET" SYSTEM THAT SERVES THE RICH AT THE EXPENSE OF THE HARD-WORKING POOR.
I hope a different opinion will at least make you realize how retarded caps-locked text is.
um hasn't he run for president like 20 times, and his highest percentage with what 5%
kealad1 2 months ago
If minimum wages hurt the economy, why is the unemployment rate in Ontario less than ours, where the MW is 10.50 an hour?
thoughtsurfer1 3 months ago 3
@thoughtsurfer1 Correlation =/= Causation. The economic standing of Ontario may not be the economic standing of New York City. Ontario is simply going through better economic times and is able to keep more people employed, however if Ontario abolished the minimum wage law, their unemployment rate would drop even less. The point is that minimum wage laws increase unemployment more than it needs to be. Whatever percentage that is depends on various other factors.
quarterxchange 3 months ago
@quarterxchange Ontario is on the same land mass as New york and Canada is one of (if not the) biggest trade partners with the USA. You're right in Correlation doesn't equal causation but its foolishly quixotic to say that they are simply going through better times.
Canada had better econ planning and more sound FINANCIAL REGULATION. This prevented the severity of the contagion in 2008-present. Look at Ireland, Greece, Iceland, their fin. reg. policies compare them to Canada, Norway, & netherl.
fububalla 3 months ago
@fububalla There are several other factors that are also in play. It is much harder to fire workers in those countries and such. Regardless, there is no reason to suggest that somehow the minimum wage raises wages, because if raising the minimum wage raised raises, then it would make sense to raise it to hundreds of dollars and hour.
quarterxchange 2 months ago
@quarterxchange look, this is a typical supply side argument. Pay the PEOPLE less, the bosses save money, so they will hire more and spend right? Just like with Taxes right? right?
This notion become less true the larger an institution is because it has more financial and institutional leverage in its locality. Its also s why it is an effective argument for those who don't actually run a business or run a small biz becuz it seems logical. Reality is those policies encourage hoarding of wealth
fububalla 3 months ago
If you want to see how minimum wage laws hurt the economy and keep people with low skills unemployed why don't you take a trip to harlem and find out how many poverty stricken black teenagers are unemployed, living on the streets or in slums when they could easily be working, being productive, acquiring a little skill, a little work ethic, a little money, and such but can't due so because employers would be hiring them at a loss thanks to do-gooders like you preventing them from working for less
quarterxchange 3 months ago
@quarterxchange The majority of people who earn less than $12 an hour (the real minimum wage) are adults, not teens. And since when do teens qualify as slave labor?
thoughtsurfer1 3 months ago
@quarterxchange The majority of people who earn less than $12 an hour (the real minimum wage) are adults, not teens. And since when do teens qualify as slave labor? I'm proud to be a do-gooder who's preventing them from "working for less."
thoughtsurfer1 3 months ago
I didn't say adults weren't affected as well. There are plenty men and women who have low skills that are entering the labor force who can't work because the minimum wage law prevents them from doing so.
You're proud to be a tyrant for the government making financial choices and decisions regarding the well being for people other than yourself, as if it's any business of yours whether or not a teen works for $7.50 an hour rather than $8.25 and hour. You don't know what slave labor is.
quarterxchange 3 months ago
@thoughtsurfer1 The unemployment rate in the Soviet Union was 0%.
Less unemployment =/= better economy in and of itselft.
quarterxchange 2 months ago
If MW is eliminated, employers would pay less than MW. That, of course, would send the message to the employee that his contributions weren't worth much. That, of course, would hurt incentive to work and, therefore, productivity. The worker would see that his contributions weren't considered important by the employer judging from the ridiculously low paycheck. Why, then would you expect him to work his ass off for you?
cincyblows 5 months ago
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@cincyblows
A smart company owner would pay the wages based off of skill. If they pay too little, then the workers will quit and their business is jeopardized. That's the free market, it's very fair.
videomakerman1232 4 months ago
@cincyblows You're a joke.
quarterxchange 3 months ago
@quarterxchange Yes, fair-minded people are always funny to sociopaths.
cincyblows 3 months ago
@cincyblows No, it's a joke because you obviously have no understanding of basic economics. Yes, if the mininimum wage law was abolished, many people would make below minimum wage, but not those already making minimum wage or more. You fail to understand that there is a market for labor and that businesses compete for workers, and that businesses don't hire people for more than they are worth, if you are hired for minimum wage pay, then your labor is worth and will be paid minimum wage rates.
quarterxchange 3 months ago
Additionally your arguments is ridiculous, and isn't even a strong argument for the minimum wage law. Businesses know how to find labor, and if need be they will hire people for more if that's what it takes to get people to work for them. A businesses won't cut the wages from someone who was working for $10 to $.01 and hour just because they can, they pay however much their labor is worth in the job market. We didn't have a minimum wage for most of human history, were people not working then?
quarterxchange 3 months ago
Hey, if a living wage of $15 would improve the economy, why not a living wage of $100, $200, $5000 per hour! That would REALLY improve the economy - right?
Wrong.
utube9000 6 months ago
Go ahead an eliminate MW. Then I'll have to rely on welfare while you're "spurring economic growth", Michele Bachmann.
cincyblows 6 months ago
There will always be a minimum wage and businesses will adjust accordingly. The only way to break the shackles of poverty is to either learn marketable skills or own/operate a small business. The consumer in the end is the one who will suffer,cause businesses ALWAYS pass on extra costs to end user.
NinezeroPlayer 9 months ago
its funny how he twists statistics. 47 million americans who make minium wage work for large companies like walmart/supervalue/kmart w/e who can afford to pay a bizzilion ppl minimum wage. The CEO's of those companies represent the "$12'000" and hour because they are CEO's of huge billion dollar cooperation what you want them to live in a trailer in shady pines trailer park? get real.
awsomeshot 9 months ago
@awsomeshot to put it in perspective I work in "mid-size" business. we have about 1000 employees and the net worth of our company is probably about 120-200 million (trucking) depending on values of equipment and whatnot. I make 32k a year plus a few bennies. the CEO makes about 100k a year roughly. so about 3.3x what I make. He has been in the business for 30 years and earned it. That is a more accurate cross section of business that utilized trained/skilled labor.
awsomeshot 9 months ago
I mostly agree with Nader on this topic.
13SuperKings 10 months ago
flowerdrop1.....you are exactly right....im a former "liberal" that is finding himself leaning more and more libertarian....its common sence...you raise min wage, it cost small biz more to operate, therefore they lay people off..therefore more unemployed....therefore raising min wage hurts lower class more then it helps..its that simple.......remember the days when we had ppl pump gas for you? bag groceries and take them to your car for you? those ppl are prob on welfare now thanks2min wage.
TheRickyp83 11 months ago
@TheRickyp83 I get what you're saying and its true many small biz would be hurt, but it does seem pretty ridiculous that workers productivity has increased over the past forty years, yet their wages have remained stagnant (when adjusted to inflation). It seems to me that the CEOs have been pocketing the money. They now make over 200x more than their average employee. They used to make 20x more. Thats wrong no matter how you spin it. Workers deserve more.
Slugg329 10 months ago
eliminate minimum wage. goods and services would cost less, and there'd be fewer unemployed.
flowerdrop1 1 year ago
Nader will never get elected because to many GOP sheep fukers would rather elect rich loving middle class hating greedy republicunts!
carnypimp 1 year ago
minimum wage is theft of labour
fringeailments 1 year ago
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A moneyless,classless,stateless communities of humanity expressing our freedom in creative harmonious cooperation for a world that is so POTENTIALLY AND ACTUALLY nourishing. Capitalism in any form, Statist or Corporatist is the denial of our common humanity in a politically manipulated,tyrannical armed MARKET SYSYTEM of artificial scarcity that is designed to perpetuate the enslavement of immense humanity for the material interest of the criminal ruling elite
arzoyan 1 year ago
Raise minimum wage to $10,000 an hour and we'll all be rich!
Sondre7 1 year ago 9
@Sondre7 One of the most stupid comments I've ever seen.
707hoser 1 year ago
@Sondre7 one of the best comments I've ever seen. 707hoser must not have known u were being sarcastic.
NairbLands 1 year ago
@Sondre7 the minimum wage in '60 was $14/hr, adjusted for inflation
cloudbuster77 9 months ago
@cloudbuster77 Is that true, or is that based on an extrapolation?
cincyblows 6 months ago
@cloudbuster77 @Sondre7 and the economy was awesome during the 60's!
fububalla 3 months ago
@Sondre7 Socialist
JasonCIAHudson 5 months ago
@Sondre7 You so called conservative with your hyperbolic $50/hr, $10,000 simply displays the idiocy and sad state of the republican party right now on all issues especially taxes.
Obviously the lower & middle class is struggling. A gradual increase in minimum wage will cut into business net income in the short term but will engender medium term demand and promote economic stability.
Open a book.
fububalla 3 months ago
@fububalla I am not a republican, I'm not very political. Yet I do know that almost all research into the minimum wage produce the result that it lower employment, and little else. Read the wikipedia article.
Sondre7 3 months ago
@Sondre7 I apologize for calling you a republican, I was a little upset. May I ask why the lack of a Minimum Wage and the cutting of taxes did not even slightly stop the gargantuan unemployment figures in the late 1920's-30s?
Then the MWage laws and higher taxes (along with other economic events of course) propelled us into the 50's 60's where the middle started to get a leg up in the world?
fububalla 3 months ago
@fububalla I don't know much about history. But I do know that there are rarely only one policy variable explaining the course of events. My guess is that the minimum wage plays a small role on the economy as a whole. Although a quite large role in explaining unemployment among low-productivity groups such as young people.
Sondre7 3 months ago
@Sondre7 I agree with your first point but disagree with tthe second. Youth's aren't unproductive, they are unskilled! there's a difference. An 18 y/o has much more vitality than a 38 y/o wouldn't you say?
Youth's today principally lack education and motivation and understandbly so given our social priorities. Teens shouldn't have to depend on mcdonalds, walmart, or best buy to make money and contribute to society. Working for corps isn't contrib. to society, its contributin to a private biz
fububalla 3 months ago
@Sondre7 Something to keep i mind about productivity is that employee productivity is controlled by the employee.. If their is no minimum nationally individual companies may find that workers will organize, seek contracts to raise their wages above a minimum and seek raises benefits ect.... before they produce anything.
JonahTorn 1 month ago
Nader is so dumb. He's talking about how expenses are too high, so his solution is to RAISE expenses!
coaster61 1 year ago
Most everyday folks have more than 1 job now just to have any money left after your paycheck is gone. The companies don't want to pay that much so they go over seas to pay workers no benifits and $1.00 a day salary. Repubs and Dems are both out of touch with reality. Go Nader!!!
redbonegal 2 years ago
Who the fuck can get by on less the $12 an hour? I'm sure 7.25 was a lovely wage back in 1960. The majority of people in that wage level are adults. Just pop your head into a fast food place these days. Trust me, they got the money. Employers would pay workers nothing if they could. The proletariat must be protected from their oppressors through political action.
thoughtsurfer1 2 years ago
Minimum wage jobs are so because any friggin idiot can do them. You are not supposed to be raising a family on that kind of pay and if you are, the boss is not the problem, you just have poor self control and/or decision making skills. These jobs are for teenagers, wannabe rock stars, people that where their pants to low, their ball cap backwards and cant speak in an intelligible manner. Pull your pants up and then be aksin for a raise.
ymp5000 2 years ago
raising minimum wage kind of causes a problem. Its going to be very difficult to start a small business if you have to pay every employee enough to support a family. Then you have to wonder if its fair that a single person can make enough to support a family even if they don't have one.
RynKen 2 years ago
Care to share some statistics to prove your point?
josepht68 2 years ago
statistics? Its easier to start a small business if you can pay your employees five dollars instead of seven.
RynKen 2 years ago
Raising the minimum wage is not the way to fight poverty. It has to be done thru education & training. Raising the minimum wage only increases the basic costs of good & services (like a haircut) which is bad for everybody
I've done alot of min. wage jobs when I was a student (delivered newspapers, assembled fences, etc). Alot of youth today think they are too good to be doing this type of labor and that's a problem....
all028 2 years ago
It is up to the workers as a whole to step up their game and demand a better pay.
Minimum wage breeds conformism in the minds of the employed and is used by the employer to create the illusion of paying less and appearing to pay fair.
The State is funded by corporations to carry out such policies of market intervention, creating monopolies.
More State intervention is not the solution.
asperin 2 years ago
"It's up to the workers as a whole to step up their game and demand better pay". Most, if not all states are " Employment At Will" states. If we working class people grew some hair on our chests and demanded higher wages, we're subjected to getting fired, disciplined, or some other kind of reprisal.
You don't know what you are talking about. Without a union, or lawmakers to fight for us, we don't stand a snowballs chance in hell !!!.
strateshootah 2 years ago
I was talking from an ~individualistic~ point of view.
If we workers demand better pay, the employers will have to pay it, or who is it going to do it? Themselves? No way.
asperin 2 years ago
Ok, since you elaborated it like that, then yes, I agree with you 100%. The operative word I think is "we". Whenever I've approached my employers with a raise, I ALWAYS have something to bring to the table....
"Ive been here 3 years, haven't missed a day, made employee of the month 3 times, give you more than you ask for", etc.
However, I've had co-workers who were scared of their shadow, and would say :"Tone it down dude, we're lucky to have a job".........So much for worker solidarity!
strateshootah 2 years ago
Yeah, that is what I despise.
The pussification among workers. Their fear, their unbalanced servitude to the people above them.
And I must say that unions and politics are what the coward is waiting for, to be saved from above, like a religious person waits to be saved by gods.
The market is highly regulated which causes economic instability, then poverty, then many give up too early backing up and settling for scraps.
Wherever there's the State, there's crises.
asperin 2 years ago
So true Asperin. Let's also take it a step further: So many of us are so hamstrung by debt, that they feel they have to sell their soul to the company store so-to-speak.
If you're paying $400 month for an SUV, you are single, have no kids, pay $400 for a Playstation, $140 month for a cellphone,update your wardrobe every 2 weeks, and then eat out 4-6 times a week....
You've out yourself in a position to be "punked" by your employers. That also makes one a "pussy" for the powers that be.
strateshootah 2 years ago
That's why man must to learn to live in a frugal way, not becoming a slave of his desires.
That's a big step towards freedom.
asperin 2 years ago
Asperin: You hit the proverbial nail on the head my friend!!!
strateshootah 2 years ago
Raising the minimum wage leads to less demand for workers (because they are an expense), higher prices for goods and services, and generally requires the government to print more money, driving down the value of the dollar.
You can't force the free market to work any way other than how it is meant to work.
sonrouge 2 years ago
In theory, yes you are correct, this job loss from increased minimum wage should occur. Yet empirically we have seen the opposite. For example, David Card and Alan Krueger's study on an increase in minimum wage found just the opposite.
poolerboy0077 2 years ago
and yet again we have seen the opposite of that poolerboy...card and krueger have been refuted by a multitude of economists and their study is flawed.
gracer99 2 years ago
They've had more than one study and the contention is moot. Moreover, even if the negative findings of some researchers were to be accurate, minimum wage workers as a whole would be better off. The temporary losses of the few are offset by the wage gains of the many.
poolerboy0077 2 years ago
Then why doesn't the government raise it to $20? Why not $50? Why not $10,000?
guyjohn59 2 years ago
The question, whether a minimum wage is a good policy, and the question, how high should the minimum wage be, should be logically separable questions. That a minimum wage could be too high, is not an argument against a minimum wage set at a reasonable level.
Unless you think that the labor market is perfectly competitive then not only is it the case that the minimum wage doesn't necessarily reduce employment, it's actually possible that small increases in the minimum wage will increase it.
poolerboy0077 2 years ago
Well what should the reasonable price be? If $10 is reasonable, why isn't $20 reasonable? $10 is higher than $7, and $20 is higher than $10? If there is some optimal number, which somehow manifested itself into a natural phenomenon, why isn't this number worshiped as sacred? And if there is such a number--or ratio rather, given the market variables, such as inflation--what is it based on? What is the formula to determine it, in other words?
guyjohn59 2 years ago
Optimity might be reached by the formula of marginal revenue equaling marginal cost (MR=MC). Each labor market would depend on multiple variables. The right minimum wage in one city for example might be wrong for another.
Again, the classical economics model of price floor minimum wage depends on the unstated assumption of perfect competition. The possibility of strategic behavior by employers is dismissed.
However, such behavior is not impossible. Miminum wage could work like antitrust laws
poolerboy0077 2 years ago
It's different per city because its different for every business, right? The minimum wage is whatever the employer wants it to be. If it isn't low enough, the employee wouldn't accept the job but look elsewhere for work. It's hard for employers to be manipulative when they're out of business. Also, seeing MR=MC reminds me of a chapter from Human Action. The text is called "Mathematics Versus Economic Logic" and is free online, as is the rest of the book, and his other works.
guyjohn59 2 years ago
Nice try. Keep it up check out esteembpo + com for social media marketing. #link#
lomknnmmj 2 years ago
i studies sociology economics and these capitalists are nothing but cold hearted pricks. Look at Zimbabwe. and look at us! we are being exploited in comparison to them! in Zimbabwe, the low class unskilled workers could make a trillion dollars a day! we can't even make $10/hr. what the hell? damn you capitalists swine!
Chikusoo 2 years ago
If 50 million workers started getting at least $12 a hour it would increase the buying power of the economy by leaps. Poor people don't buy things; they use their credit cards and ruin the economy.
thoughtsurfer1 2 years ago 5
This is a fallacious argument. If 50 million workers receive a higher wage than their buying power increases, but the buying power of their employers decreases these offset each other. There is a net 0 change in buying power.
meadbert 2 years ago
@thoughtsurfer1
it wouldn't be a good thing because 50 million workers would not be working at a mandated wage of $12--if their productivity is lower than $12 they will be unemployed.
Raising the minimum wage only worsens unemployment (and thus the economy)--it doesn't make things better.
FoxPMcCloud 1 year ago
@FoxPMcCloud If you have a choice of siding with the basic needs of workers (which is a high probability) and the strain on a business (which contains a variety of factors), I'd rather side with the workers. There's a good chance that most workers are producing wealth much higher than their wages. If employers are hiking prices out of spite, then they're just being jerks. You'd see less of that in worker co-ops.
thoughtsurfer1 1 year ago
@thoughtsurfer1 Developing production and living standards raise purchasing power. The purchasing power of whatever you hold is dependent on these factors. Minimum wage changes the wage without regard to anything else while cutting production (those laborers that could be producing but were knocked out of the labor market).
Nellsing 1 year ago
@thoughtsurfer1 It would increase the buying power of those workers that remain employed despite the minimum wage. But those potential employees knocked out by the minimum wage is another story. Also, it's not how many dollars you have in your pocket that matters, but they're purchasing power, which minimum wage ignores. I can imagine that as purchasing power goes down due to inflation and barriers to entry (low productivity), more people will be rooting for higher MW. It's just a distraction.
Nellsing 1 year ago
@thoughtsurfer1 Not true.
prices would go up
the minimum wage is horrible for the economy.
HandyMan101 1 year ago
your salary is directly tied to your productivity and skill set.
basic math and packing groceries isn't worth much.
want to make more? get educated, stay in school, learn a trade.
HandyMan101 1 year ago
@thoughtsurfer1 if you increase min wage by 40% a free market will reflect that and unemployment will rise. Do you really think stocking shelves @ a grocerry store is skilled labor? monkeys can do it. flipping burgers @ micky d's? dude that is stuff highschool failures can do. If they do it well there can be room for advancement. how about instead we just cut taxes, wasteful spending, and put a maxium wage on bureaucrats.
awsomeshot 9 months ago
@thoughtsurfer1 you mean like company start giving money to their workers ? Are you crazy ?
Melpheos1er 9 months ago
@thoughtsurfer1 No it wouldn't because it would increase the price of goods and services because now the cost to provide goods and services is higher because they have to spend mroe on labor. Like the top rated comment says, if that logic works, why not raise the minimum wage to $10,000?
quarterxchange 3 months ago
@quarterxchange Again, responding to all this idiocy. An increase in the F.M.W. would not necessarily (and probably not) increase the price of goods and services. We leave that to the Federal reserve nowadays. People are freaking broke. Much money will go to BANKS, paying off credit cards, mortgages, rent, insurance, loans.
You guys speak as if people don't have debt and current obligations. It is profoundly inane for you to overlook these points if you're going to seriously discuss economics.
fububalla 3 months ago
@fububalla Absolutely it can assuming the workers are not laid off. The Federal Reserve also has not helped one bit. All the government can do is institute price controls to limit the rise of prices, which leads to less goods and services being offered and has done so in the past.
quarterxchange 2 months ago
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@thoughtsurfer1 You so called conservative with your hyperbolic $50/hr, $10,000 simply displays the idiocy and sad state of the republican party right now on all issues especially taxes.
Obviously the lower & middle class is struggling. A gradual increase in minimum wage will cut into business net income in the short term but will engender medium term demand and promote economic stability.
Open a book.
fububalla 3 months ago
We will NEVER be a real capitalist system if wages remain as criminaly low as they are now. Even Ayn Rand belived that. Yes, we can blame both parties but it is Reagan/ neocon philosophy that has created the climate that has watched America's middle class erode and the gap between rich and poor widen. The republicans warn of "hurting business" if liveable wages are enacted. What more do real conservatives need to see the reality of what's taken over of their once great party?
maulhoik 2 years ago
There are now at least 46 Million Uninsured people in this country. No Health Care, Not even Basic. There are 20 percent more families living in bitter poverty now, as compared to eight years ago. (Before George W. Bush took office.) Meanwhile The Minimum Wage doesn't get raised for Ten Long Years. What the hell is wrong with Americans, that they can't make fair money agreements with each other, anymore ?
CosmicFork 2 years ago
raising the minimum wage is dangerous...there are a number of problems with it...for one: if a company has to pay higher wages for every worker then they'll hire less employees...which is an even bigger problem
leapton88 2 years ago
Sounds like 20 year old leapton88, has been watching too many Milton Friedman videos; "raising the minimum wage is dangerous"... What alot of nonsense. Raising the minimum wage is good for the economy, because it puts more purchasing power in the hands of the people who will go out and spend the money. The lack of consumer spending is what's harming our economy now, and contributing to the recession. We need to stimulate demand in the economy, not drive it down!
CosmicFork 2 years ago
No. It doesn't put more purchasing power in anyone's hands. Companies can only afford to pay their employees so much money in total. Raise the minimum wage and the same money will get distributed among fewer people.
That you would even say that in response to to leapton's point reveals that you have absolutely no understanding of the argument he was presenting.
Jawajoey 2 years ago
No, Jawajoey I have an understanding of the argument he was presenting. I just know that he's mistaken. It's just fundamentally incorrect to think that "raising the minimum wage is dangerous." But, people are speaking from different positions. Perhaps your family is very anti-union, or ultra-conservative Rich Libertarians. I don't know, and I don't care. But, I do know that raising the minimum wage is a good thing to do!
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Wow, not a single argument in any of that. I can't help but wonder what the point of your response was, since it obviously wasn't to persuade anyone, debate the topic, or defend yourself.
Jawajoey 2 years ago
Working people were doing basically twice as much work for the same wage or less. That's not supposed to happen. But that's exactly what did happen. Working people can't get a wage increase despite all our gains in productivity. This growing gap between how much we produced and how much we earned led to a bizarre paradox: as the economy grew, individual hourly wage workers, were actually becoming worse off. Now, go back to watching, 'Funny Lil Puppets in Monkey Island', 20 year old.
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Wow, Jawajoey doesn't want an argument from me to persuade him because his mind is already made up! But, I'll speak truth to a closed mind anyway. The Economic Policy Institute reports that, since 1972, the median hourly wage for men has remained basically flat, and has actually declined for the bottom fifth of workers. What is more astonishing is that in this very same period, when workers were losing financial ground, their productivity -- their output per hour-- nearly DOUBLED!
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Interesting point.
But that doesn't resemble a convincing argument for raising the minimum wage, especially since you're talking about the median hourly wage.
Do you have evidence that the minimum wage workers increased in productivity as well?
And how would increasing minimum wage help the guy in the middle?
See, I'm not being close minded here, you're just not being convincing. It's clear you don't like the free market, and I doubt any YouTube comment is going to change your mind.
Jawajoey 2 years ago
Well, Mr. Jawajoey the point I was making with The Economic Policy Institute Report was that if the median hourly wage has remained totally flat, imagine how much worse off people working for the minimum wage are! When the minimum wage is raised, it actually helps hourly wage workers who work for more than the minimum wage (workers who make maybe $10.00 or $12.00 or even $15.00 an hour.) The reason it actually helps them more is that employers have to compensate their existing workers.
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Jawajoey says; "It's clear you don't like the free market." My question to you would be; "What makes you think we have a (quote) free market for ordinary hourly wage workers in this country? Is this "market" really "free"? Coercion marks the employer-employee relationship at every point. For most employees, pay and working conditions are neither negotiable nor a matter of free choice. It is "take it or leave it". And few are in a position to leave it- not when a job is a necessity for survival!
CosmicFork 2 years ago
In a true free market, both the buyer and seller of work or services are free to bargain for the best possible terms. When that freedom is replaced by coercion, when one party is dependent upon the other for survival, there is no longer a free market, and at precisely that point the actions of the party with a monopoly of economic power become governmental. Since employers already have private economic governmental powers over workers, what's wrong with public government setting a minimum wage?
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Yes, the wage market isn't quite a free market. That's what was so interesting about the data you mentioned, I wouldn't have thought it was that severe. Maybe the government could do something, but raising the minimum wage won't help.
An actual solution would revolve around adjusting all wages to better match actual productivity. Hurt stupidly over-payed CEOs and help workers get what they deserve. Sounds nice.
Jawajoey 2 years ago
But raising the min wage would unfairly distort wages at that productivity level, and remove more jobs below that level. There's no reason to stop people getting paid for low-earning jobs. Not everyone is trying to make a living off every job.
"The reason it actually helps them more is that employers have to compensate their existing workers."
Is just a non-sequitur. No logic there at all.
You're making a pretty convincing argument for something completely different from minimum wage.
Jawajoey 2 years ago
From my own direct experience, there is no quote "free-market" for ordinary hourly wage workers. Never has been, Never will be. To an extraordinary extent the United States is a business dominated, business-run society, and that means that human rights will always be subordinated to the drive of investors for profit. That's been my direct life experience, not some belief system or ideology that was pushed off on me, (by say, some Marxist professor at a university.)
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Well, it's nice to see that a young person is questioning our basic belief systems and ideologies. This has nothing to do with economics, but as an old person, I am convinced that anyone who tries to push-off a belief system or an ideology on you, IS NOT YOUR FRIEND! That goes for ANY ideology or belief system about Religion, Economics, Politics, etc... Instead, I'd say, go for Direct Experience, don't discount the truth of your own life experience. To me, there is no quote "free-market".
CosmicFork 2 years ago
The Economic Policy Institute is a left leaning organisation with ties to organised labor. Increasing the minimum wage can increase the value of mid level workers. This is because low value employees become unemployable and this decreases the supply of labor thus increasing its price. This is somewhat offset by the fact their relatively skilled workers find they must spend time doing some lower skilled work to make up for the loss of lower skilled labor.
meadbert 2 years ago
how about the greedy bosses take a pay cut, to make the company becomes more competitive. it is the people who work on the factory floor who make the money, they are people who make company a success.
ED999A 2 years ago
There's been a big change in America in the last 30 years, for ordinary hourly wage workers. Real wages stagnated in the 70's and started a steady decline throughout the 80's, and continued even through the so called "Clinton Recovery". The effort to undermine and destroy Labor Unions in this country peaked in the Reagan Years. In the Reagan Years America simply resended Article 23 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which guarantees elementary human rights of workers to organize.
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Only Margaret Thatcher succeeded in smashing down the working people in England even better than the Reaganites here in the U.S. In 1985, America had the Highest Labor Costs in the world, (which you'd expect in the richest society in the world). By 1992 it's labor costs were second to lowest. For College Graduates the wages didn't start dropping until about 1987, when the "Reagan Reforms" got into high gear,... and they've been dropping ever since.
CosmicFork 2 years ago
raise the minimum wage to $50.00 an hour and will all be rich.
yammyspeed13 2 years ago
Well, it's good to see that you're at least on the right track to living wages, but I don't think $50.00 an hour is good enough. I won't be happy until minimum wage is $15,000 an hour, and I won't settle for a penny less.
LastTrueLiberal 2 years ago
Why don't you move to Zimbabwe? You'll make even more than that.
jjenson2006 2 years ago
There are now at least 46 Million Uninsured people in this country, (No Health Care, Not even Basic.) There are 20 percent more families living in bitter poverty now, as compared to eight years ago, (Before George W. Bush took office). Meanwhile, The Minimum Wage doesn't get raised for Ten Long Years. What the hell is wrong with Americans, that they can't make fair money agreements with each other anymore? Living Wage, I SAY HELL YES!
CosmicFork 3 years ago
Comment removed
billfro1 2 years ago
I would like to disagree with your idea of bitter poverty. What do people need in life? They need food, water, clothing, shelter, along with a few other necessities. Now I think you would be hard pressed to find a significant percentange of the population living without access to these necessities. The poor in America are considered to be rich by other nations' standards.
billfro1 2 years ago
My comment was not to "compare" the wretched conditions of the poor in different countries. My comment was to say, "why the hell does it take !0 Long-ass years to get something as basic as The Minimum Wage raised ? Our economic system has made a clear choice, with immense, nationwide consequences: to devalue labor. For most of our history we valued work highly enough so that ordinary Americans could enjoy both security and a rising standard of living. Now a different choice has been made!
CosmicFork 2 years ago
Why do you think people can't afford the goods they want to buy? Why do you think we are in this wage mess to begin with? It is because of minimum wage. On the surface, it sounds great; pay people more. However when you raise minimum wage it creates an excess supply of labor (from workers) and a decrease in demand for labor (from producers). Think about it; if you owned a company and you had to pay your workers more, what would you do? To keep production costs down, you would lay people off...
billfro1 2 years ago
..., raise prices, or some combination of the two. So you are either contributing to unemployment or making your product less affordable. In addition, the people left over have to work even harder to make up for the work of the workers laid off. It is foolish to think that people should get paid more than what the service they render onto another is really worth. If you took an economic perspective and not a skin-deep analysis of the situation you would realize why minimum wage is a bad idea.
billfro1 2 years ago
Hell yea brother! Print away! Free money! Increase in nominal wages is increase in real wages! Don't let anything like reality or economic law tell you otherwise! If I'm not paying $30.00 for a bean burritto by tomorrow, I'm protesting!
LastTrueLiberal 2 years ago
Head of Wal-Mart makes $12k an hour huh? He has a million employees making under $10 an hour huh? Ok so lets divide $12,000 by 1,000,000 people to see how much each employee would get per hour; Oooo wow man! They would each get 1.2 cents per hour! They'll be stinking rich!
TheKuffarKid 3 years ago
I do not plan to remain unemployed and sponge off you good tax paying people as I think that is unfair, I have complications to resolve and look forward to working again, however, I refuse to work for less than £8 per hour, I dont think thats a lot.
Sorry for so many posts.
Peace.
lwouldliketoknow 3 years ago
I made sure I got fired becaues it sucked so bad. I now pay no council tax, no rent, no bus fares, and live an a tight budget of £60 per week to buy my food @ £30 a week and have £30 a week left for myself.
I brought this on myself, because I admit I took to drug when I was a young lad, and I blame no1 but ME for being on low wages, but surely No ONE who is working (especially hard long hours) be on the povery line. I have slightly more money unemployed than I would if I were working.
lwouldliketoknow 3 years ago
Granted I have screwed my life up and I used to earn the minumum wage at 31 because of life problems some of which Id brought about myself.
On the min wage I earned on 40hour week £178 - I was then being taxed and paid £20 a week bus fares and £60 per week for my apartment. I was a kitchen porter and it was very hard work doing anything the chefs didnt want to do.
lwouldliketoknow 3 years ago
If the minimum wage is effective in raising peoples wages without creating unemployment then why don't we raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000 an hour?
As labor becomes more expensive to hire business will use machines that were previously to expensive. And will cause business to scale back there operations employing less labor because it is now more expensive.
btw
The minimum wage has no effect on inflation, Inflation is a monetary phenomenon, caused by the Federal Reserve.
bradh57 3 years ago
How can a presidential candidate(albeit a 3rd party candidate) be so ignorant of basic economics. Raising the minimum wage will cause unemployment hurting the very people he wants to help by pricing them out of a job. I wants wages to rise, but a minimum wage is not the way to do it.
bradh57 3 years ago
than how do we do it? because EVERYONE that has the i.q of 95 (like our president) deserves to make a decent living
btw
getting rid of the mininum wage has the EXACT SAME EFFECT that raiseing it dose
in reverse it takse someone makeing 9 an hr and puts them on the streets replaceing them with a retard/unskilled/palin baby makeing 2 dollars an hr
hellfiregypsyfinale2 3 years ago
Not only will raising the minimum wage cause inflation, and thus have essentially no effect. You also have to consider that most people who make minimum wage are high school kids who don't need a high income as they live with their parents. If your job doesn't pay enough, GET A NEW DAMN JOB!!! That's how the free market is supposed to work; if they don't pay enough for the difficulty of work, they won't be able to get help.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
maybe you missed the whole picture. Inflation already went up, Big Macs and whoppers already more than doubled, etc. but wages are essentially stagnant, unless you are a greedy CEO. I can't even send my teenage daughter to work for less than $8/hr Kids know better nowadays than to work for less.
john1234r 3 years ago
Inflation did already go up, so did the minimum wage. Actually this whole debate reminds me of something my father said to me. That before minimum wage, we had people that worked themselves to the bone for mediocre pay. I asked him: And what do we have now? I think it's the same situation. Maybe the problem is deeper than we realize. Socrates said (not a quote btw) that society will always have great problems as long as it is not ruled by a someone (or people) that is truly just.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
raising minimum wage will cause instant inflation and people on fixed income will starve. the reason ? when your employer shells out more money to pay your wage, he will have to make up for it by increasing the price of his goods and services ! politicians are'nt too bright ....
stonerj0e 3 years ago
so no one should ever get a raise for any reason cause employers have to raise prices
hellfiregypsyfinale2 3 years ago
no, it's when everyone gets a raise at the same time that causes inflation. nice try being a smart ass though !
stonerj0e 3 years ago
see your wrong inflation happend even before the min wage wnet up for the 10 years it didnt move prixes went up regardless
if a worker is to take a pay cut so MUST a CEO
hellfiregypsyfinale2 3 years ago
^ that's not true. If the CEO is smart he will simply earn $2 Million a year instead of $10 Million.
john1234r 3 years ago
sorry my replies ended up here somehow. The two replies underneath are for 2 posts below saying that raising the min. wage will be bad
john1234r 3 years ago
You can't just think in terms of numbers.You have to think in terms of flow and productivity too.Now a days your average person can't start simple pipsqueek business without the high expenses imposed by speacial interest groups.Let me have my freedom and everyone mind your own business.IF what I do will not harm anyone go bug off.
thisnthattv 3 years ago
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NADER/Gonzalez = WE the PEOPLE
Democrats and Republicans = THEY the CORPORATION$
* The two headed Democrat and Republican monster is not
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* No more Pay-Or-Die Healthcare $ystem!
We Want Single-Payer like Canada!
* "Spoiler" is a politically bigoted word used by the opposing parties to keep the independents out of the race.
travelfar22 3 years ago
Anyone who talks about economics doesnt understand that its a moral issue. SLavery was good for the southern economy does that mean we should have let it continue?
badmuffy 3 years ago
do you know how much turn over xcompanies have when they pay very low wages?
the compaines that pay slave wages wonder y no one stays they rarely give raises (very immoral worse than abortion not to give someone hard working a raise)
do you want 2 dollars an hr? no mininum wage also means your rate of pay can change at anytime
i really want to know do you hate overtime laws to?
nswapro3134383070 3 years ago
The typical Republican response to any bad job situation is to go find another job.
i ask if someone works 20 years for a company y should they take any cut in pay or benifits if the CEO's dont?
nswapro3134385000 3 years ago
what does what a CEO make have anything to do with a person just starting off and trying to get work who has no job skills. you are evading the issues like most left wing fascist do.
it is NONE of your business what contract i make with an employer. you do not have any understanding of basic economics. get an education . The word fair is totally an opinion. Do you think you are god?
Read Mises and Hayek. the two greatest economist of all time
Vote for Bob Barr Or Palin
alansready 3 years ago
how about the word exploit? how about overtime pay? you dont complain that an employer MUST pay more after 40 hrs
no one can live ooff of 2 dollars an hr even starting out
and do you think its right for a CEO to get a bouns while wages are cut? im just wondering
nswapro3134383070 3 years ago
so y cant we haave a price floor for wages?
besides show me ONE company that laid off people when min wage wnet up ( make sure it aint some mom and pop business no one ever heard of)
besides here in MI when min wage wnet up we actually saw MORE help wanted ads than we did before
nswapro3134383070 3 years ago
isn't the average CEO pay in USA 13million annually? average pay for minimum wage annually is 10-12grand a year. well, your all luckier then me, i got a chinese boss who isn't paying me the minimum wage which is currently 8.75 in canada.
Bobobearx 3 years ago
turn him in you CANNOT get in trouble
hellfiregypsyfinale2 3 years ago
The social benefits of the minimum wage are to improve the lives of low-wage workers, reduce the number of hours they need to work to make a living, and reduce the demand for social services such as food stamps.
nswapro3150 3 years ago
There are people (we know who) that say minimum wage increase destroy the economy. HUH? If that's the case, if the minimum wage were 25cents/hour, would we have 0 unemployment nationwide? No. Because greed would take the savings from the current minimum wage & pocket it all. That is how business works. Not fair, just greedy.
nswapro4381415 3 years ago
hey dude why not make everyone rich and make the minimum wage 1 million dollars an hour now everyone can live in a mansion
you are such a moron when it comes economics , contract, freedom supply and demand
newapro4381415. i am sure you have some talent but it certainly is not understanding economics.
Vote bob barr or Palin or check baldwin . send washington dc a message
alansready 3 years ago 2
there are all sorts of pussys here that gave me me a thumbs down because hey guess what i think having a minimum wage is sick because it literally makes it illegal to work if no company is willing to pay you that minimum
all you pussys that gave me thumbs down come out and debate me like a man.
after all no company in america is forced to hire anyone so when you have a minimum wage it means that if no one will pay you that wage well i guess you have starve . very humane :(
alansready 3 years ago
the minimum wage is so there is a price floor for labor and people are not exploited
nswapro4381415 3 years ago
you just do not understand. you have no concept of economics
when you have a minimum wage it means if no one is willing to hire you at that wage guess what you have to starve to death .
the minimum wage is the worst thing that a government can do next to waging wars
do you understand that no company is forced to hire people in the USA?
I guess you want people to STARVE to death because no one will hire them at that minimum
obama $10 would create over a million jobs lost
Think !!!
alansready 3 years ago
its a price floor i feel there needs to be a downside agreement that says you wont make any less that x ammount,
that gives the worker a bit of comfort knowing they will not loose any pay
just how i feel
nswapro4381415 3 years ago
that is the problem you feel instead of think.
i guess you dont "feel" about those people that wont get jobs as a result of a minimum wage. i guess you feel that if no one will pay them the minimum you feel it is ok for them to starve
you are a fucking dumb ass moron. you dont give a shit about our people especially those with no jobs kills and no ability to make the minimum wage
one more time no one can force an employer TO hire someone! wake up!
try reading what i am saying
Think
alansready 3 years ago
you think people wont starve on 2 dollars an hr i do not understand y no price floor cannot be in place
i got to ask you is 2 dollars an hr fair?
do you like overtime pay? goverment makes employers pay that to
i just cannot see how a CEO can get a bonus and tell his workers they must not get a raise cause times are tough
nswapro3134385000 3 years ago
I understand where you're coming from, but it's really not as simple as that. Lets say for example that a retired gentleman wants to do a light job just to kill some time. That person does something really simple like say being a greeter. Is it fair to regulate that a company should have to pay some one $10/hr to say hello to people? Most people making minimum wage don't rely on their job as their sole supply of income (take high school kids for example). If they do, they're in serious trouble.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
So because retirees and high school kids might work for minimum wage it should stay the same?
Don't you understand that paying a wage that can't support current minimum living costs is no different from completely eliminating social security. Its called social security for a reason, you know so people have the bare minimum required to live on so we won't need to hire extra police officers to stop them doing illegal things to support themselves.
b0b0maj0 3 years ago
Difference is workers are actually contributing to society, by paying taxes (instead of receiving them). Consuming things (producing profits for businesses), and at the same time being productive to whoever hires them. If businesses are performing that bad that they could not afford a minimum wage increase, then they should not be in business. You know, that free market stuff.
b0b0maj0 3 years ago
My statement wasn't that it should stay the same. I merely said that it should be regulated based on an individual's own criteria, and by the nature of the job. Someone with a family of 6, for example, needs more money than some one who supports only themselves. A high school kid doesn't need a ton of money by the hour to blow on alcohol. When someone works hard in their job, but the job doesn't pay enough to cover the bills, their extra needed income should be subsidized via welfare.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
It seems like a system where peoples income is determined by a regulatory body would be susceptible to corruption, manipulation, and political pressure.
bradh57 3 years ago
Which is why the regulating needs to be done by the workers themselves, as in a labor union. When you have a job, your pay is determined by these 4 things: the amount of profit your work generates, the difficulty of your work, how much it would cost to replace you should you decide to quit, and by the efficiency of the company that you work for. The reason I don't like the minimum wage is that it only assumes the fourth condition, that all companies make far more profit than they pay in wages.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
Sometimes, however, you should consider that some jobs may not generate enough profit to pay $10/hour. (I admit that most do, but I'm arguing for the few that don't.) I worked in fast food for a year and a half. My boss talked of how he had trouble staying in business, and that he dreaded the upcoming minimum wage increase. It's clear that the workers there were content with what they made, but not the government. I didn't need the extra money; I worked there because it payed enough.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
Now, speaking as a former minimum wage worker I can say that I don't think it's fair for my company to have to charge more for its products to fill my pockets. Had I not been content with my pay, I would have left. If enough people did likewise the company would have to pay more, or go out of business. That is what I call regulation, and it is up to the individual worker to decide if the wage pays enough for the aforementioned 4 factors. To decide if the work is worth the pay.
ExtremelyMike452 3 years ago
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Modeltrainguy 3 years ago
minimum wage is slave money
they should up wages for all hard workders
to 20 dollars an hour fuck its 2008 already.
BIGDADDYJOHNSON27 3 years ago
maybe the idea is to down grade the USA lifestyle to meet with the Mexican lifestyle..? easier to do that than bring up them folks and less dangerous for the government. after all wouldn't it be a shame if most all Mexicans could afford what we have in our lives, including guns and ammo for all ..? fucking government is too fucking big and intrusive.
HarcourtMarketing 3 years ago
How about creating a system of a 30 hour work week with the same pay as a 40 hour work week, with overtime and health care benefits from the employer? Of course, that plan would be an extension of raising the min. wage b/c living wages keep increasing---transportation, rent, utlities, etc.
aaliathepowerof1 3 years ago
Yeah the democrats are really bad about shutting out their own, and the media does a great job helping them do that. You can't say that all of the democrat presidential hopefuls got an equal voice on the old tube, that is silly. Can you imagine of the race was between Kuicinich and Paul? Would be way different, but that isn't a race the big wigs want to see.
Harikus 3 years ago 3
the minimum wage is idiotic. it kills jobs for the poor and the blacks. it is just inflationary
it would be better to have a maximum wage
1000 times at most the avg of the lowest 50 percent of workers
vote for freedom vote bob barr
alansready 3 years ago
So seven thousand dollars an hour is reasonable when all the low wage workers are starving to death? What bullshit.
ralphKNS 3 years ago
you made a claim.- ¨´So seven thousand dollars an hour is reasonable when all the low wage workers are starving to death? What bullshit.¨ PLEASE TELL ME ON WAHT BASIS YOU CAN SAY IT IS NOT. TELL ME A LOGICAL REASON . DONT FEED ME EMOTIONAL PROGANDA. VORTE BOB BARR FOR FREEDOM. IF WWE HAD MUCH LESS REGUALTION IN THE MARKET PLACE THERE WOULD NOT BE LARGE CORPARATIONS AND NO ONE WOULD GET PAID SO MUCH BUT I AM SURE YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FACT . DEBATE ME DUDE. NO OPINIONS
alansready 3 years ago
I THINK YOU'LL FIND THAT CORPORATIONS DO VERY WELL WHEN THEY'RE ALLOWED TO PAY SLAVE WAGES TO EMPLOYEES ON THE BRINK OF STARVATION AS IS COMMON IN SINGAPORE, A TOTALITARIAN POLICE-STATE WITH A "FREE MARKET" SYSTEM THAT SERVES THE RICH AT THE EXPENSE OF THE HARD-WORKING POOR.
I hope a different opinion will at least make you realize how retarded caps-locked text is.
ralphKNS 3 years ago
you have yet to answer my question. tell me the critiria for how much to pay someone should be.
you are running like a pussy because you cant answer my simple question
mccain hit a home run when he nominated palin for vice president . she is the best pol next to Ron Paul
hey ralph why not trying to make a logical arguments instead of feeding me emotional propaganda
Dont vote for the asshole and dumb ass Obama
alansready 3 years ago
btw
no min wage means an employer can change your rate of pay hr by hr
do you belive overtime should be a law to? its goverment forced
well you may change your tune if they take it away from you
nswapro4381415 3 years ago
i believe that an employer can contract with an employee at any wage they both agree on. it is called freedom. it is the foundation of the usa.
wage and price controls destroy the economy
they never work .
if you force up wages by fiat it just causes inflation and now every dollar that you own is worth less money
it is called debasing your currency
people please read some basic free market books
read hayek, Mises, Milton friedman, walter williams, bastiat and adam smith .
alansready 3 years ago