My primary criticism of the 12-step program is that it didn't work for the man who was largely responsible for its popularity, Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA. He suffered soul-crushing depression his entire life and had several notable character flaws (such as being argumentative with AA staff and lying about AA attendance figures); AA'ers today would call him a "dry drunk." According to AA archivist Nell Wing, he even tried LSD in the 1950's and seemed to turn his back on his own Twelve Steps!
I've got 7 years clean & sober in NA. I've seen a lot of people who didn't make it. Mostly they were too smart to stay clean and sober. Smarter than people who had been living successfully clean and sober for decades.
@jamessavik Typical AA response-ignore them. Controlling, weak-minded busy body know-it-all's. If they had all the answers why do they keep doing the same things over and over expecting different results. That's what I call INSANITY!
“We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity … we did not wish to get it wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady – a far safer term to use.”
* William Griffith Wilson (1961) addressing National Catholic Clergy Conference on Alcoholism.
This video post and its management is an example of how impossible it is to have an objective conversation about theological considerations with AA apologists. Comment removed my ass. I removed nothing, and my observation is rendered unintelligible with the removal. Let me simplify. AA is filled with, and the mental health professionals promoting it, CONTROL FREAKS. It stopped working when AA accepted court ordered people into the program. All chapters should refuse to allow courts to do this.
AA apologists devote themselves to retaining an obsolete sociology where women could not vote, get elected to political office, find legal recourse to the courts when being abused by a husband or call the police in that event, attend college, live alone as an adult without being stigmatized as a spinster, have careers, join orchestras, receive alimony, expect government to punish the ex-husband who fails to pay it, and demand her spouse be sober enough to support his family or face litigation.
i dont understand why all you people hate on AA its ridiculous... it worked for me and it works for other people... who the fuck cares...i can easily say that id go to a couple meetings a week, pray to god, and show someone how i got sober ANY day rather than the despair i was living in... all of yall need to find something else to hate and bitch about
@phillyblunts5797 Today women are CEO's. Nobody is forcing their daughter to marry a deadbeat drunk.
If a woman however accidentally decides to, the courts are perfectly willing to grant women married to a drunk a divorce, however responsible for getting herself into the situation. At best, AA is sentimental. That world is gone. More women are in college than men these days. Our sons need to learn how to compete with women in the workplace in 2011. AA is an anachronism.
Constantly the reformers qualified their rejection of Thomistic theology for free will with caveats about Manichaeanism. The Roman Catholic Wilson did not have the theological knowledge to be so vigilant, and for that matter, those responsible for the NIV bible, and the term, sin nature. AA has mislead many into irreconcilable arguments that at once maintain the reality of a creator God yet reject the goodness of what the Creator made. Drunkenness is evil, and not our nature to practice.
James, in "Pragmatism," claimed, "Truth in our ideas means their power to 'work'." This is why people rave about the effectiveness of AA. But truth has far too many impractical consequences for this to be the case. The crucifixion is the clearest example of the impractical character of speaking, believing, even being the truth. Is getting executed practical?
@RioRags Of course execution can be "practical". Would you die for a friend or relative? History suggests that many will. Indeed the "many" have often been influential martyrs. Spirring movements that change entire cultures.
@strugglinalong If I argued for the practicality of the gospel, I would argue that Jesus told his disciples to flee persecution (Mt. 10:23), not pursue martyrdom. The crucifixion was not practical for Jews as would be restoring the kingdom to Israel.
AA Chapters are autonomous. I agree some spurn religion. Many evangelicals do not realize the anti-Christian use of the term higher power in some chapters. Religion in it for the most part is positivistic; AA teaches attrition, not penance.
Basic tenants of sociology explain why AA works best for most, not just some. Group think in any theological or ideological model, for maladies with no medical model of treatment, such as alcoholism, is very potent. One will always find detractors of the AA model because success rates for recovery of addictions are low. However, AA’s assertion that the detractors flow from the camp of failure (denial) is likely accurate. Commitment in a group model essential but diffucult to do.
@strugglinalong The AA treatment system completely rejects any sociological approach altogether. There is absolutely no recognition of the sociological conditions under which the temperance movement started in this country by AA. It is a biologically reductionist perspective lacking any consideration for a whole menagerie of social considerations and developments in American society. The social conditions that fostered the development of temperance groups in the US do not even exist anymore.
@RioRags I understand your frustration but you are using a contemporary thought. The association of the AA model is not with the temperance movement (for many reasons) but rather with rational choice models of support which do not rely on changing models within developments of "American society". This is the problem with most detractors, the desire to align AA with religious movements. Its efficacy is purely rational and AA did not start the temperance movement (1830)
Alcoholics Anonymous has 115,000 groups in 125 plus countries, its membership exceeds 2 million people and the book Alcoholics Anonymous has sold over 30,000,000 copies, yes I said 30,000,000.
Only a village idiot would say it does not work,go to a intermational conventiion and every village idiot who thinks it doesnt work might change their view. But I doubt it ignorance has to be self examed,and the anti AA dolts NEVER self exam.
@llvick55 William James, a pragmatist, had a huge impact on Bill Wilson. Yet AA does not stand or fall on the basis of whether or not it works. Popular as pragmatism may be it is an isolated epistemology that cannot itself dictate what justifies anything. My concern is whether or not AA principles are true or false, right or wrong, not if they work or not. If a person's sobriety fails for a lifetime of AA membership, I would not reject AA on that basis. We are free to think less pragmatically
@RioRags Personal failings of individuals and "guilt by association" ad-hominem are your entire argument. You seem to approach things from a fundamentalist, neo-Christian principle of "truth". Did the AA model "fail" you? I reject fundamentalist/evangelical theology and recognize that AA principles are far more "Christian" than basic Calvinism. Would you ask others to reject AA if they had a lifetime of success with AA?
@strugglinalong /Of course execution can be "practical"./ So can lying. It is practical to trick people into quitting drugs and alcohol by lying to them, which can be a huge social problem. But is it right? Is it true? Consider the source. Wilson, raised Roman Catholic, and his fusion of physiology in anthropology with the Calvinist doctrine for deprivation of free will in step 1 demonstrates a misinterpretation of Calvinism in the hands of a deviant confirmed Roman Catholic parishioner.
Luther observes: It is false to state that man’s inclination is free to choose between either of two opposites. Indeed the will is not free, but captive. This is said in opposition to common opinion. It is false to state that the will can by nature conform to correct precept. As a matter of fact, without the grace of God, the will produces an act that is perverse and evil. It does not, however, follow that the will is by nature evil, that is, essentially evil, as the Manichaeans maintain.
@strugglinalong Don't you get it? These observations are not ad hominem. We need to observe the plain fact that the wife of Bill Wilson overlooked his mistresses because as a temperance advocate women perceived him as their advocate. I don't know how to say this tactfully, but Bill Wilson was not only pussy whipped. He was a nazi feminist with a penis.
Bill Wilson had a mistress all his life. His biology of man is patent Manichaenism, i.e., heresy, no less a sin than drunkenness. Thought LSD was therapeutic for alcoholics, gallivanted with Huxley around the Southwest US, a "Brave New World" of soma, on peyote and mushrooms. Machiavelli claimed "Fraud is praiseworthy in a time of war." This is why governments court order people to 12 step groups, not because they believe alcoholism is a disease. AA is a font of lies. Not a Christian group.
@TheIntolerantAtheist Neither your mischaracterizations nor uploader karajeannine's anachronizations demonstrate an inquiry into AA. Though universally applauded by pop-Evangelicals today, e.g., Phillip Yancey in "What's so Amazing About Grace," w/ the Christian Counseling movement, during a non-Jeffersonian age in the West that took theological distinctions seriously, and threw adulterers in jail, Bill Wilson would have been the subject of auto de fe, and 12-step groups banned by the Prince.
@TheIntolerantAtheist "This God wants creationism taught as fact in science classes throughout America" Actually the notion we are by nature evil, the most fundamental component of AA ideology, i.e., that our bodies are different and disposed to alcoholism, is entirely incompatible with this notion of a Creator in whose image we are created. God is good, not evil. Furthermore, AA is pluralistic, appreciating "Varieties of Religious Experience." It most resembles Manichaenism, not Christianity.
@TheIntolerantAtheist "You must accept the tribal God of the ancient Judean desert into your heart as your Lord and Saviour." Actually, AA attributes its religious origin to Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group from the 40's. Bill Wilson, is to an extent, a plagarist of isolated OG principles. But the Oxford Group ousted the tipplers, itself repudiated by real theologians like Niebuhr, who AA sucked up to by plagarizing the serenity prayer. Even liberals like Bonhoeffer disparaged Buchmanism.
@rickbangkok THAT is sooooooo trite. I'll agree with you on the 'don't drink part.' BUT 'meetings' are nothing more than boring religious revivals where rational ideas are shot down and thinking is replaced with silly religious propaganda. the 'big book,' is nothing more than the rantings of a religious lunatic. Bill Wilson obviously has NO respect for science,psychology, or rational thought. That is why persons whom use their brain, should not take AA seriously!
@mdaskal2000 I saw you little page here dear. Conspiracy theorist Jordan Maxwell seems to be doing your thinking for you. Blow the dust off the cover of your Big Book, and trying reading the words in black print and you will find that it is not a rant or a religious program at all, but a spiritual program that works if you work it. But thanks for sharing and keep coming back.
@rickbangkok lol. anybody that is capable of actually doing the research, and deciding that jordan maxwell is a "conspiracy theorist," means that YOU have functional brain cells.
@rickbangkok Unfortunately, I tossed that outdated, religious, cult manifesto(AKA the 'big book) in the trash back in 2007(both my harcover and softcover). I got sick of attending funerals for people that bill wilson's god failed to help.(but it's not religious right?). I'm not quite sure what Jordan Maxwell has to do with AA.......
@rickbangkok well you sure are big and bitter as they say in Texas. Good luck with that kind of sobriety. I posted a comment here and I do not care to debate you further.
You take all of the illegal organizations operating out there such as the mafias in all countries, the gangs, and anything you can think of NOTHING comes close to the tyranny of the Narcotics Anonymous or AA group. They should be wiped on the face of the earth for the spine they lack!!!!!!!!!!!!
The issue at hand should be , What is society doing to deal with the drug culture. The critique is fair but the problem still remains. Our society is seeking a so;ution without addressing the systemic issues surrounding substance abuse. many people struggle with spiritual issues, psychological issues,and interpersonal relationships. The 12 step process has provided a manner in which these issues can be brought out and dealt with. It is not the only answer by no means, but it is a viable start.
Its sad to see people who have never really grasped the truth about AA. I've been sober and happy for 6 yrs The 12 step program bought me back from insanity and death to a life that I could never have imagined for my family and I. If its done that for us and so many others I know of then what harm has it done. AA has done for me what I couldnt do fo myself. It has disciplined me and it has given me reason to live, all I had to do was practise a few simple pinciples.
I work the steps - yeah i found this great flight of steps near me leading to the underpass and i jog up and down it for a warm up!! Otherwise working the steps sucks ass!
aa works , but why does it not work, i cannto belive telling all my inner stuff who says he is sick.this idea of confession is a lot of crap,.i hate aa manily because when i went to it years ago the old guy who acted like a boss was a proper creep and showed disdain of new comers and also he was a crazy ible nut head, an d then he was charied evrey meeting i went too,.so i left , i thought it ws a place for married men who wee having trouble with their wives
i am so sorry i did not stand up and be counted when i was going to aa meetings.,i was suppose to be about sharing experience strength and hope,.my god its very lacking on giving anyone hope,,...the big cars etc and bosses emerging boasting of their time done,....................and chasing every bit of skirt the could find,.......
THere s a lot of this knocking of AA all over youtube, some guys are obsessed with AA, but what they are doing doesn't work either evidenced by their obsessing.
They know AA works, thats why they can't let it go.
I tried on my own for yrs, decades but always ended up drinking again.
AA doesn't work until you are good and bloody, thats my experience and observation within AA. SO keep drinking, thats the only way to get ready for AA.
@jonesgerard I totally agree mate, let them scoffers scoff and be damned. Why else would they have such huge resentments (the truth always hurts) towards a program that's only designed to help. They obviously still havent suffered enough. When you guys finally do become honest with yourselves (and admit you do have a problem,"selfish,self-centerdness") AA will be there to help.
I agree with you 100%. Thanks for your intelligent, obviously knowledgeable comments. "Obviously they haven't suffered enough." When these critics reach "incomprehensible demoralization" hopefully they reach out to the hand of AA and stick around long enough to get it. - Best, Eric L, Happy AA Member
I appreciate the comment he makes that it was never meant (and is not) a one size fits all approach to recovery. I have tried and tried to "fake it till I make it" with AA and NA...I can stay sober...but I can't stand the hypocrisy of the 12th step...I don't see those who have achieved a spiritual awakening actually reaching their hands out. Rare...very rare
12 step programs and fellowships are merely a symbolic backdrop in which individuals ritualise their decision to achieve and maintain abstinence from addictive behaviours...
They are neither responsible for success nor failure...
This is why the efficacy data of 12 step programs parallels the efficacy data of natural remission so closely...
He's probably being diplomatic here, but people who've been subjected to the nonsensical dogma and detested it are beyond diplomacy. If I was an ex-member from the USA rather than the UK I might feel a lot more angry about the influence of steppism and the extent to which it has infiltrated the judiciary and medical establishment. I'd hate to see the same thing happen in my country.
@MrTobytwirl So you would rather no one was given a chance to clean up their act if convicted of a minor drug charge but simply sent to jail? Id rather give people a chance. That is the only other choice. You people seem to fail to understand what a kindness it is to avoid actual jail, which often leads people into worse criminal behavior.
I didn't say that someone should be sent to prison on a minor drugs charge. I don't think that possession of drugs for personal use should even be a criminal offence, but that's another argument. Nor do I think that drug use necessarily implies an addiction problem. Nor do I believe that attendance at 12 step meetings is automatically the best solution for those who do have a problem.
... if we were talking about something, I have no idea what that something was because I posted my comment about 2 months ago and I can't see any other comment on here that's mine and you start your comment with PS which means that you must have said something erlier...
@jonesgerard Half of a century "rarely see oneone fails" w/ meeting, meetings, meetings. If the meeting aa has 3% and the stepnazis 93%, why dont you prove it w/ scientific stats ?
"Half of a century "rarely see oneone fails" w/ meeting, meetings, meetings. If the meeting aa has 3% and the stepnazis 93%, why dont you prove it w/ scientific stats ?"
Dude!... the reason why they don't parade around the high statistical likelihood of someone letting go to of the booze after attending their meetings is because you are just as likely to do it on your own, as with the help of AA!
... that means that you could just as well done it on your own.
... it's actually kinda sad how many people don't admit that they could have done it on their own and always give a supernatural being the credit.
I suppose those decades trying to do it on my own were just my imagination, I suppose my psychiatrist after 2 years of therapy and medication didn't know what he was talking about when he suggested I try AA.
When I worked the steps in 1 week and recovered to sanity , what?
you know better ?
If you can do it alone my hat is off to you.
If you aren't an alcoholic you don't know what you're talking about, opinions are worthless.
I forgot to include that only theistic people are the ones that would even take AA seriously, so... ether you could have done it on your own or you believe in that "higher power" bullshit.
"The problem is that it's being applied as a 'one-size-fits-all for all things', and it was never designed as such"
The Oxford Groups that is relaunched in many 12-step groups today had been designed as 'one-size-fits-all for all things' but never really worked that way. There was also massive critisism of their claim of being "spiritual not religious".
but you dont know how many people did the program and how many just sat in meetings, at our group people who work the steps usually get sober and people who just go to meetings usually get drunk. most people will leave aa before they figure out what they are really suppose to be doing there.
Notice how the spread of religion in our modern world has to be down by going through and to those who are weakened, mentally, spirtually, physically, etc? I by spirtually (I'm an atheist) I mean your "heart" your feelings, etc.
I've noticed that religion gets spread most and most passionatly through ex drug addicts who still relapse constantly when they do 12-step which violates the 1st ammendment when you're court ordered for it. Also, Christianity only spreads in uneducated countries, today
i dont think religion should factor into reality. it just provides another obsession for the addict. hope doesnt come from surrender or group. it comes from waking up in the morning clean and wanting more of it. that should be promoted, not cyclical recovery and identity paired to behavior. 12 steps used to be necessary though, addiction used to be different there was no rehab or help for withdrawals.
I find it my personal responsibility to spread the news to the still sick and suffering "addicts" out there that 12 step programs are harmful ineffective brain washing cults that steal your hope, your free will and your life!
@jenpadian many addicts have no hope, they can see no vision of a life for themselves and the dope is literally killing them. What about them? I feel compelled to say that I was one of them and by actually writing the 12 steps multiple times I now have multiple years clean and a wonderful life.Somebody at a meeting once told me this and it offered me just the hope that I so desperately needed.Can you offer any Hope to the still suffering addict?
the 12 steps are only suggestions, getting through 24 hours..1 day at a time..it's a simple program for complicated people..the percentage would be much higher if addicts can grasp the concept of 1 day at a time...yes willingness is the key...the 12 traditions are also important...peace
staying clean for a hardcore addict is never simple, especially those that are early in recovery..the NA/AA program alone will not keep anyone clean, meetings won't keep anyone clean, meetings are only a fellowship and no more..everyone in the rooms will NOT have our best interest at heart..i went through several different meetings until i found one that has a real, genuine empathy, one that's not cult like, those type meetings do exist...
it's extremely complicated living in active addiction, finding ways and means to get more drugs, holding down a job, relationships, avoiding the law, etc...life's a lot simpler today..
There is a lot of critizisim because it has extremely poor outcome, infact there is no outcome success. There are just coinsidences, they can not predict who the fuck is going to get clean. Suite the basters, if they are funded by the Federal or any government funds they are violating the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Go to Gabito Grupos and find Suite 12 Step Programs.
There are 8 Federal Cases and I am working on the 9th. Contact your ACLU and make a complain.
@Picaro1 So what do you suggest? The people given a chance to clean themselves up in any kind of rehab program are being given mercy by the judge, they are already convicted of a drug or drinking violation. If you do not want to be faced with any 12 step programs, simply avoid being convicted of a drug charge. its not forced on anyone. Its given as an alternative to some felons. The alternative is mandatory jail sentences instead.
Please visit exposeaa.webs. We are looking for people who have been forced to participate in the 12 step cult by employers and courts. We are also looking for individuals who have been denied an organ transplant for failing to participate in the AA cult. Please tell your story. Together we can change things.
This was a good, even handed critique of 12 step. Some people do well with AA and thats OK, but the recovery industry is still trying to cling to fit everyone into this quasi-religious program.
n.a. is based on spiritual principles, moral philosophy ... ethics ..
heh i should let you say what the hell you want cause its in the traditions ...
or you can come at a n.a. concience meeting
thanks .. if an addict doesnt want help if hes not blown to pieces selling himself in the street for drugs .. yeah youre free .. as far as i know no one obligates addicts to come to meetings ... accept criticism and let go na guys ... love you
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Thx for your comments, The truth doesn't work well for those who come in the rooms thinking they aready have the answers. Most people who don't understand the program are those who have already have it in their heads that it won't work for them or they are too smart for the program, which I have to admit is my favorite. God bless
12 Steppers attack me all the time for refusing to admit I'm powerless over food. I used this video on my blog today (TheSkinnyOnline) so my readers can see it. Thanks!!
Click on the aaalternatives link in the blurb on the side.
It's FULL of sponsored links...
Maybe there's something to that AA argument that guys like this (and Peele et al) are merely trying to carve out a piece of the commercial rehab market for themselves....
AA & NA is FREE and doesn't really demand much. Addicts are addicts and I'd rather hang with a clean addict then someone who is using. It may have saved my life. Although I no longer attend meetings and rarely go to functions, I'll always be grateful to both programs. NA/AA works if you work it (the steps). People who really work the steps are very happy. Too bad that most people don't work the steps.
"every aa member knows that he had to conform... if he deviates too far the penalty is sure is , he sickness and dies. no personal sacrifice is too great"
AA is really not interested in alcoholics in general, but only as they relate to AA itself as potential recruits. In fact AA's main purpose is to keep members coming to meetings & to recruit new members from an endless supply of pigeons.
its easy to get sober but how long will it last. why is it that you people need to bash this stuff some people feel as tho it works if it dont work for you go get help somwhere else. And you people talk about cults and religion im an athiest and a member of NA you people should be spending more time bashing CHRISTIANITY which is the biggest cult to ever hit man kind instead you waste your time on us addicts.
joey - why is questioning/voicing dissent/disagreeing with the 12X12 model invariably cast as 'bashing'? why can't constructive criticism be taken exactly for what it is?
further why is 'bashing' christianity a more acceptable practice? in theory, the church can offer up the same success rates in sobering up addicts/alcoholics as AA or NA (hint: none of the three organizations officially keep figures).
as a former stepper i can firmly state that the most cogent criticism of 12 step programs is simply this: by & large they don't work in keeping people sober.
they may enhance a sense of non-denominational 'faith', but they don't work any better or worse than spontaneous remission when it comes to 'abstaining' completely from alcohol or drug intake.
faith-based, feel-good, motivational bloviating that recedes 10 minutes after leaving the meeting. no real, lasting 'solutions'.
dis agree. If that were true, AA would not exist because no one would go. We would just quit and that would be that. But then, Im not as smart as you. I will say you did your homework, you have a good case against it. If AA go;s away what will be in your gun sights next?
I quit on my own. It was difficult and took several tries. The withdrawl from drinking was nasty but at least I didn't have any people preying on my emotionally weak state with christian dogma and outdated homespun logic.
If your gonna get sober and you think you need help go to PROFESSIONALS! Don't go to AA where every idiot thinks they're an expert. Find real doctors and do rational recovery.
Well what do I do if my real doctor is in my morning meeting? As for your idiot generalization, you paint alot of people that I KNOW you have not done the things in life they have. Unless you too have walked on the moon..... loser
I think there's a better way. The 1 step recovery program.
Step #1-Stop drinking so damn much.
No one twists your arm to drink booze, that's your decision. You've always had power over alcohol. It's whether or not you decide to actually do something about it that matters.
Although I am against the 12 steps, it's really not that easy. Trust me I've been trying like hell for awhile and I'm normally a pretty strong-willed person.
YES YES YES They keep them there for there money!!!!! And then they fuck them all in the ass!!!!! Yes you are so right on bro, damn I wish to God I had seen this 15 years ago I can nevedr get those years back!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Well but then I would have never had those years. Well at least without doing them behind bars such enlightenment around here. Im sure the whole thing will collapse any day now.......Donkies
Well this whole Anti AA thing is just so pathetic, its just a bastion for the absurd. Of all the rightous fights you could take up in life like hunger a group of about 20 lonley souls would take up such a cause. It is a big planet and AA just keeps growing so it of no consequence but it is just plain old bizzare. Look up Alcoholics Anonymous and Nambla: Partners in Ideals part 1 and this little gem.
Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay Sadomasochism. Tell me he is not dying to come out of the closet.
Yes as we type we are making lamp shades of their skins soap from their fat and seem to be running low on Zyklon B. But dont worry, what we dont kill the bottle will Blah Ha ha ha its a perfect no win situation for das alchies!!! You can run but you cannot hide Veee shall find you. Such sillyness~~~ Wooo hoo its Friday!!!! Great to be sober, morning meeting was awsome!!!!!!!!!
LOL Hammer you have a such a propensity for grandiosity. If ANYTHING killed tens of millions of anything it would be world news. come one man, you do have the ability to respond in a mature matter, thats just plain silliness~ G day
Hammer I do typicall like a lot of what you have to say about psycho-emotional stuff it is an interesting concept, and hey there may be something to it. But man you put yourself in with some rally embassing company when you do this. Donkeys like, 2p, godlessweasal, and my all time favorite commonsense1111 . Your way to good for that. Gday!
10 I allowed a bunch of angry self proclaimed alcoholics to continuously break down my will.
11. I was told to speak with an invisible man in the sky or my toaster and ask them what to do on every decision that I made. When I told the sponsor that my toaster and invisible man did not answer me, he said that he heard them talking. He said that he had years of experience and so he could hear the invisible voices. I then, did want he told me, the voices were telling me to do.
The more these shrinks seem to know about addictions, the less experience they have had in their own lives with addictions and the more they seem to charge and hour. Everybody wants to form their own little group whether its AA, Smart Recovery RR, Moderation Therapy, Psychotherapy, SAVE YOUR MONEY, all you need to know is: you can do whatever the hell you want! All these groups do is try to convince you of that.
12 step is rubbish unless you're prone to jumping on the "higher power" bandwagon.
I'm not saying this guy knows better, I've never seen him before in my life. But that doesn't change the fact that you need skilled psychologists in order to run a successful rehab program. And skill does not come free.
The next annual convention of the Alcoholics Anonymous Haters Society will be held on April first 2009. at the Motel 6, room 32, in Marion Ohio. Don't miss it!
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ANYONE IN RECOVERY!! Check out my ebook everyone! :) /watch?v=wocD6tEXIeo
OdomtologyBooks 3 weeks ago
My primary criticism of the 12-step program is that it didn't work for the man who was largely responsible for its popularity, Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA. He suffered soul-crushing depression his entire life and had several notable character flaws (such as being argumentative with AA staff and lying about AA attendance figures); AA'ers today would call him a "dry drunk." According to AA archivist Nell Wing, he even tried LSD in the 1950's and seemed to turn his back on his own Twelve Steps!
BlatzBeer 3 months ago
The Success is 75 % if you do what the program tells you to .
TheDonny2 6 months ago
I've got 7 years clean & sober in NA. I've seen a lot of people who didn't make it. Mostly they were too smart to stay clean and sober. Smarter than people who had been living successfully clean and sober for decades.
jamessavik 6 months ago
@jamessavik
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN PUNCHED IN THE DICK!!!?
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@Hammersley1967 still drunk, loser?
jamessavik 6 months ago
@jamessavik
Nah... Haven't had a drink for 16 years...
Just thought a quick knuckle sandwich to your wedding tackle might sober YOU up...
Hammersley1967 6 months ago
@jamessavik Typical AA response-ignore them. Controlling, weak-minded busy body know-it-all's. If they had all the answers why do they keep doing the same things over and over expecting different results. That's what I call INSANITY!
meddetect10 6 months ago
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@meddetect10
“We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity … we did not wish to get it wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady – a far safer term to use.”
* William Griffith Wilson (1961) addressing National Catholic Clergy Conference on Alcoholism.
Hammersley1967 1 month ago
This video post and its management is an example of how impossible it is to have an objective conversation about theological considerations with AA apologists. Comment removed my ass. I removed nothing, and my observation is rendered unintelligible with the removal. Let me simplify. AA is filled with, and the mental health professionals promoting it, CONTROL FREAKS. It stopped working when AA accepted court ordered people into the program. All chapters should refuse to allow courts to do this.
RioRags 7 months ago 3
AA apologists devote themselves to retaining an obsolete sociology where women could not vote, get elected to political office, find legal recourse to the courts when being abused by a husband or call the police in that event, attend college, live alone as an adult without being stigmatized as a spinster, have careers, join orchestras, receive alimony, expect government to punish the ex-husband who fails to pay it, and demand her spouse be sober enough to support his family or face litigation.
RioRags 8 months ago 2
i dont understand why all you people hate on AA its ridiculous... it worked for me and it works for other people... who the fuck cares...i can easily say that id go to a couple meetings a week, pray to god, and show someone how i got sober ANY day rather than the despair i was living in... all of yall need to find something else to hate and bitch about
phillyblunts5797 8 months ago
@phillyblunts5797 Today women are CEO's. Nobody is forcing their daughter to marry a deadbeat drunk.
If a woman however accidentally decides to, the courts are perfectly willing to grant women married to a drunk a divorce, however responsible for getting herself into the situation. At best, AA is sentimental. That world is gone. More women are in college than men these days. Our sons need to learn how to compete with women in the workplace in 2011. AA is an anachronism.
RioRags 8 months ago
I cant married Hammer
My grammar (Grandma ?) and other things are "creative" from time to time.
Meth and alc killed - hmmmm - something in its brain.
tITs is 50-60% in the jeans. tITs crimal OZies energy will break through.
Plus, its fucking NA ! Its as sick as its sick Einstein quote.
andreasheinz 8 months ago
This man doesn't know what he's talking about.
drpool2424 8 months ago
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Constantly the reformers qualified their rejection of Thomistic theology for free will with caveats about Manichaeanism. The Roman Catholic Wilson did not have the theological knowledge to be so vigilant, and for that matter, those responsible for the NIV bible, and the term, sin nature. AA has mislead many into irreconcilable arguments that at once maintain the reality of a creator God yet reject the goodness of what the Creator made. Drunkenness is evil, and not our nature to practice.
RioRags 8 months ago
James, in "Pragmatism," claimed, "Truth in our ideas means their power to 'work'." This is why people rave about the effectiveness of AA. But truth has far too many impractical consequences for this to be the case. The crucifixion is the clearest example of the impractical character of speaking, believing, even being the truth. Is getting executed practical?
RioRags 8 months ago
@RioRags Of course execution can be "practical". Would you die for a friend or relative? History suggests that many will. Indeed the "many" have often been influential martyrs. Spirring movements that change entire cultures.
strugglinalong 8 months ago
@strugglinalong If I argued for the practicality of the gospel, I would argue that Jesus told his disciples to flee persecution (Mt. 10:23), not pursue martyrdom. The crucifixion was not practical for Jews as would be restoring the kingdom to Israel.
AA Chapters are autonomous. I agree some spurn religion. Many evangelicals do not realize the anti-Christian use of the term higher power in some chapters. Religion in it for the most part is positivistic; AA teaches attrition, not penance.
RioRags 8 months ago
Basic tenants of sociology explain why AA works best for most, not just some. Group think in any theological or ideological model, for maladies with no medical model of treatment, such as alcoholism, is very potent. One will always find detractors of the AA model because success rates for recovery of addictions are low. However, AA’s assertion that the detractors flow from the camp of failure (denial) is likely accurate. Commitment in a group model essential but diffucult to do.
strugglinalong 8 months ago
@strugglinalong The AA treatment system completely rejects any sociological approach altogether. There is absolutely no recognition of the sociological conditions under which the temperance movement started in this country by AA. It is a biologically reductionist perspective lacking any consideration for a whole menagerie of social considerations and developments in American society. The social conditions that fostered the development of temperance groups in the US do not even exist anymore.
RioRags 8 months ago
@RioRags I understand your frustration but you are using a contemporary thought. The association of the AA model is not with the temperance movement (for many reasons) but rather with rational choice models of support which do not rely on changing models within developments of "American society". This is the problem with most detractors, the desire to align AA with religious movements. Its efficacy is purely rational and AA did not start the temperance movement (1830)
strugglinalong 8 months ago
Alcoholics Anonymous has 115,000 groups in 125 plus countries, its membership exceeds 2 million people and the book Alcoholics Anonymous has sold over 30,000,000 copies, yes I said 30,000,000.
Only a village idiot would say it does not work,go to a intermational conventiion and every village idiot who thinks it doesnt work might change their view. But I doubt it ignorance has to be self examed,and the anti AA dolts NEVER self exam.
llvick55 8 months ago
@llvick55 William James, a pragmatist, had a huge impact on Bill Wilson. Yet AA does not stand or fall on the basis of whether or not it works. Popular as pragmatism may be it is an isolated epistemology that cannot itself dictate what justifies anything. My concern is whether or not AA principles are true or false, right or wrong, not if they work or not. If a person's sobriety fails for a lifetime of AA membership, I would not reject AA on that basis. We are free to think less pragmatically
RioRags 8 months ago
@RioRags Personal failings of individuals and "guilt by association" ad-hominem are your entire argument. You seem to approach things from a fundamentalist, neo-Christian principle of "truth". Did the AA model "fail" you? I reject fundamentalist/evangelical theology and recognize that AA principles are far more "Christian" than basic Calvinism. Would you ask others to reject AA if they had a lifetime of success with AA?
strugglinalong 8 months ago
@strugglinalong /Of course execution can be "practical"./ So can lying. It is practical to trick people into quitting drugs and alcohol by lying to them, which can be a huge social problem. But is it right? Is it true? Consider the source. Wilson, raised Roman Catholic, and his fusion of physiology in anthropology with the Calvinist doctrine for deprivation of free will in step 1 demonstrates a misinterpretation of Calvinism in the hands of a deviant confirmed Roman Catholic parishioner.
RioRags 8 months ago
Luther observes: It is false to state that man’s inclination is free to choose between either of two opposites. Indeed the will is not free, but captive. This is said in opposition to common opinion. It is false to state that the will can by nature conform to correct precept. As a matter of fact, without the grace of God, the will produces an act that is perverse and evil. It does not, however, follow that the will is by nature evil, that is, essentially evil, as the Manichaeans maintain.
RioRags 8 months ago
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RioRags 8 months ago
@strugglinalong Don't you get it? These observations are not ad hominem. We need to observe the plain fact that the wife of Bill Wilson overlooked his mistresses because as a temperance advocate women perceived him as their advocate. I don't know how to say this tactfully, but Bill Wilson was not only pussy whipped. He was a nazi feminist with a penis.
RioRags 8 months ago
Bill Wilson had a mistress all his life. His biology of man is patent Manichaenism, i.e., heresy, no less a sin than drunkenness. Thought LSD was therapeutic for alcoholics, gallivanted with Huxley around the Southwest US, a "Brave New World" of soma, on peyote and mushrooms. Machiavelli claimed "Fraud is praiseworthy in a time of war." This is why governments court order people to 12 step groups, not because they believe alcoholism is a disease. AA is a font of lies. Not a Christian group.
RioRags 9 months ago
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TheIntolerantAtheist 9 months ago
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TheIntolerantAtheist 9 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist Neither your mischaracterizations nor uploader karajeannine's anachronizations demonstrate an inquiry into AA. Though universally applauded by pop-Evangelicals today, e.g., Phillip Yancey in "What's so Amazing About Grace," w/ the Christian Counseling movement, during a non-Jeffersonian age in the West that took theological distinctions seriously, and threw adulterers in jail, Bill Wilson would have been the subject of auto de fe, and 12-step groups banned by the Prince.
RioRags 9 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist "This God wants creationism taught as fact in science classes throughout America" Actually the notion we are by nature evil, the most fundamental component of AA ideology, i.e., that our bodies are different and disposed to alcoholism, is entirely incompatible with this notion of a Creator in whose image we are created. God is good, not evil. Furthermore, AA is pluralistic, appreciating "Varieties of Religious Experience." It most resembles Manichaenism, not Christianity.
RioRags 9 months ago
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TheIntolerantAtheist 9 months ago
@TheIntolerantAtheist "You must accept the tribal God of the ancient Judean desert into your heart as your Lord and Saviour." Actually, AA attributes its religious origin to Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group from the 40's. Bill Wilson, is to an extent, a plagarist of isolated OG principles. But the Oxford Group ousted the tipplers, itself repudiated by real theologians like Niebuhr, who AA sucked up to by plagarizing the serenity prayer. Even liberals like Bonhoeffer disparaged Buchmanism.
RioRags 9 months ago
Don't drink, go to meetings, read the book, call your sponsor.
rickbangkok 10 months ago
@rickbangkok THAT is sooooooo trite. I'll agree with you on the 'don't drink part.' BUT 'meetings' are nothing more than boring religious revivals where rational ideas are shot down and thinking is replaced with silly religious propaganda. the 'big book,' is nothing more than the rantings of a religious lunatic. Bill Wilson obviously has NO respect for science,psychology, or rational thought. That is why persons whom use their brain, should not take AA seriously!
mdaskal2000 8 months ago 9
@mdaskal2000 I saw you little page here dear. Conspiracy theorist Jordan Maxwell seems to be doing your thinking for you. Blow the dust off the cover of your Big Book, and trying reading the words in black print and you will find that it is not a rant or a religious program at all, but a spiritual program that works if you work it. But thanks for sharing and keep coming back.
rickbangkok 8 months ago
@rickbangkok lol. anybody that is capable of actually doing the research, and deciding that jordan maxwell is a "conspiracy theorist," means that YOU have functional brain cells.
mdaskal2000 8 months ago
@rickbangkok Unfortunately, I tossed that outdated, religious, cult manifesto(AKA the 'big book) in the trash back in 2007(both my harcover and softcover). I got sick of attending funerals for people that bill wilson's god failed to help.(but it's not religious right?). I'm not quite sure what Jordan Maxwell has to do with AA.......
mdaskal2000 8 months ago 9
@rickbangkok well you sure are big and bitter as they say in Texas. Good luck with that kind of sobriety. I posted a comment here and I do not care to debate you further.
rickbangkok 8 months ago
@mdaskal2000
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN PUNCHED IN THE TITS!!!
Hammersley1967 8 months ago
@mdaskal2000 Yes, this has been my experience also.
salahudeenabduladl 7 months ago
@mdaskal2000 since you are ranting on about AA, here's an AA one liner you might like? 'If You can spot it, then You've got it'!!! ring any bells?
opendtuning 2 months ago
You take all of the illegal organizations operating out there such as the mafias in all countries, the gangs, and anything you can think of NOTHING comes close to the tyranny of the Narcotics Anonymous or AA group. They should be wiped on the face of the earth for the spine they lack!!!!!!!!!!!!
bleaupearls 10 months ago
Why do so many people in AA smoke ? that kills more than alcohol and is totally incongruant with the AA message
scrapbar 11 months ago
@scrapbar
I give you my breasts...
Hammersley1967 11 months ago
The issue at hand should be , What is society doing to deal with the drug culture. The critique is fair but the problem still remains. Our society is seeking a so;ution without addressing the systemic issues surrounding substance abuse. many people struggle with spiritual issues, psychological issues,and interpersonal relationships. The 12 step process has provided a manner in which these issues can be brought out and dealt with. It is not the only answer by no means, but it is a viable start.
Soulx797 1 year ago
Its sad to see people who have never really grasped the truth about AA. I've been sober and happy for 6 yrs The 12 step program bought me back from insanity and death to a life that I could never have imagined for my family and I. If its done that for us and so many others I know of then what harm has it done. AA has done for me what I couldnt do fo myself. It has disciplined me and it has given me reason to live, all I had to do was practise a few simple pinciples.
rototino 1 year ago
yep that recovery industry makes me sick,.i am sure a person can recover without GOD,. iam off it all years now and never thought of god,.
deep down i knew it was myself that got myself into trouble and MYSELF out of it,.,.
suirvale 1 year ago
I work the steps - yeah i found this great flight of steps near me leading to the underpass and i jog up and down it for a warm up!! Otherwise working the steps sucks ass!
mrdubcrazy 1 year ago
aa works , but why does it not work, i cannto belive telling all my inner stuff who says he is sick.this idea of confession is a lot of crap,.i hate aa manily because when i went to it years ago the old guy who acted like a boss was a proper creep and showed disdain of new comers and also he was a crazy ible nut head, an d then he was charied evrey meeting i went too,.so i left , i thought it ws a place for married men who wee having trouble with their wives
suirvale 1 year ago
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@suirvale
I've got really big muscles and everyone is afraid of me...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
i am so sorry i did not stand up and be counted when i was going to aa meetings.,i was suppose to be about sharing experience strength and hope,.my god its very lacking on giving anyone hope,,...the big cars etc and bosses emerging boasting of their time done,....................and chasing every bit of skirt the could find,.......
suirvale 1 year ago
@suirvale
I've got really big muscles and everyone is afraid of me...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
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BILL W. IS A LIAR & THE FATHER OF LIES !
IGOROZKARSKY 1 year ago
THere s a lot of this knocking of AA all over youtube, some guys are obsessed with AA, but what they are doing doesn't work either evidenced by their obsessing.
They know AA works, thats why they can't let it go.
I tried on my own for yrs, decades but always ended up drinking again.
AA doesn't work until you are good and bloody, thats my experience and observation within AA. SO keep drinking, thats the only way to get ready for AA.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
@jonesgerard I totally agree mate, let them scoffers scoff and be damned. Why else would they have such huge resentments (the truth always hurts) towards a program that's only designed to help. They obviously still havent suffered enough. When you guys finally do become honest with yourselves (and admit you do have a problem,"selfish,self-centerdness") AA will be there to help.
rototino 1 year ago
I agree with you 100%. Thanks for your intelligent, obviously knowledgeable comments. "Obviously they haven't suffered enough." When these critics reach "incomprehensible demoralization" hopefully they reach out to the hand of AA and stick around long enough to get it. - Best, Eric L, Happy AA Member
ericlindau 1 year ago
@ericlindau
Smokin' the Big Ones...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
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I appreciate the comment he makes that it was never meant (and is not) a one size fits all approach to recovery. I have tried and tried to "fake it till I make it" with AA and NA...I can stay sober...but I can't stand the hypocrisy of the 12th step...I don't see those who have achieved a spiritual awakening actually reaching their hands out. Rare...very rare
bak2cali1 1 year ago
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bak2cali1 1 year ago
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bak2cali1 1 year ago
12 step programs and fellowships are merely a symbolic backdrop in which individuals ritualise their decision to achieve and maintain abstinence from addictive behaviours...
They are neither responsible for success nor failure...
This is why the efficacy data of 12 step programs parallels the efficacy data of natural remission so closely...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
He's probably being diplomatic here, but people who've been subjected to the nonsensical dogma and detested it are beyond diplomacy. If I was an ex-member from the USA rather than the UK I might feel a lot more angry about the influence of steppism and the extent to which it has infiltrated the judiciary and medical establishment. I'd hate to see the same thing happen in my country.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago
@MrTobytwirl So you would rather no one was given a chance to clean up their act if convicted of a minor drug charge but simply sent to jail? Id rather give people a chance. That is the only other choice. You people seem to fail to understand what a kindness it is to avoid actual jail, which often leads people into worse criminal behavior.
lollipopfop 1 year ago
@lollipopfop
I don't think cleaning up one's act is synonomous with attending a 12 step fellowship. 12 steps or jail is a falsely contrived ultimatum.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago
@MrTobytwirl
AA = 卐
Hammersley1967 1 year ago 2
The shortedst answer to the title-question is:
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!!!
DavySigfusson 1 year ago
@DavySigfusson
PS
I didn't say that someone should be sent to prison on a minor drugs charge. I don't think that possession of drugs for personal use should even be a criminal offence, but that's another argument. Nor do I think that drug use necessarily implies an addiction problem. Nor do I believe that attendance at 12 step meetings is automatically the best solution for those who do have a problem.
MrTobytwirl 1 year ago
@MrTobytwirl
... if we were talking about something, I have no idea what that something was because I posted my comment about 2 months ago and I can't see any other comment on here that's mine and you start your comment with PS which means that you must have said something erlier...
DavySigfusson 1 year ago
@DavySigfusson "BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!!!
DavySigfusson 2 months ago "
It worked perfectly fine for me, I worked the steps in less than a week.
People who only go to meetings and claim AA doesn't work might benefit from the truth that no-one recovers from just attending meetings.
Meetings are not the program.
The 12 steps are the program.
They have swallowed a lie and everyone knows it.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
@jonesgerard Half of a century "rarely see oneone fails" w/ meeting, meetings, meetings. If the meeting aa has 3% and the stepnazis 93%, why dont you prove it w/ scientific stats ?
andreasheinz 1 year ago
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@andreasheinz
"Half of a century "rarely see oneone fails" w/ meeting, meetings, meetings. If the meeting aa has 3% and the stepnazis 93%, why dont you prove it w/ scientific stats ?"
Thats rather incoherrent,
try again when you sober up.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
@jonesgerard
Dude!... the reason why they don't parade around the high statistical likelihood of someone letting go to of the booze after attending their meetings is because you are just as likely to do it on your own, as with the help of AA!
... that means that you could just as well done it on your own.
... it's actually kinda sad how many people don't admit that they could have done it on their own and always give a supernatural being the credit.
Free Wil = "God" can't Intervene!!
DavySigfusson 1 year ago
@DavySigfusson
Yeh you have a point,
I suppose those decades trying to do it on my own were just my imagination, I suppose my psychiatrist after 2 years of therapy and medication didn't know what he was talking about when he suggested I try AA.
When I worked the steps in 1 week and recovered to sanity , what?
you know better ?
If you can do it alone my hat is off to you.
If you aren't an alcoholic you don't know what you're talking about, opinions are worthless.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
@jonesgerard
I forgot to include that only theistic people are the ones that would even take AA seriously, so... ether you could have done it on your own or you believe in that "higher power" bullshit.
DavySigfusson 1 year ago
@DavySigfusson I was atheist.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
"The problem is that it's being applied as a 'one-size-fits-all for all things', and it was never designed as such"
The Oxford Groups that is relaunched in many 12-step groups today had been designed as 'one-size-fits-all for all things' but never really worked that way. There was also massive critisism of their claim of being "spiritual not religious".
andreasheinz 1 year ago
but you dont know how many people did the program and how many just sat in meetings, at our group people who work the steps usually get sober and people who just go to meetings usually get drunk. most people will leave aa before they figure out what they are really suppose to be doing there.
rogerc99 1 year ago
Notice how the spread of religion in our modern world has to be down by going through and to those who are weakened, mentally, spirtually, physically, etc? I by spirtually (I'm an atheist) I mean your "heart" your feelings, etc.
I've noticed that religion gets spread most and most passionatly through ex drug addicts who still relapse constantly when they do 12-step which violates the 1st ammendment when you're court ordered for it. Also, Christianity only spreads in uneducated countries, today
hoboboxerjoe 1 year ago
i'ts OLD so it's worthless....Listen to yourself u prick...So lets chuck the bible in the bin?....i'm an athiest but even i can smell the crap
1doctoma 1 year ago
I think it is just a bunch of perverts what want to feel conforntable about them selves
bornagain634 1 year ago
i dont think religion should factor into reality. it just provides another obsession for the addict. hope doesnt come from surrender or group. it comes from waking up in the morning clean and wanting more of it. that should be promoted, not cyclical recovery and identity paired to behavior. 12 steps used to be necessary though, addiction used to be different there was no rehab or help for withdrawals.
tiemedown 1 year ago
I find it my personal responsibility to spread the news to the still sick and suffering "addicts" out there that 12 step programs are harmful ineffective brain washing cults that steal your hope, your free will and your life!
jenpadian 1 year ago
@jenpadian many addicts have no hope, they can see no vision of a life for themselves and the dope is literally killing them. What about them? I feel compelled to say that I was one of them and by actually writing the 12 steps multiple times I now have multiple years clean and a wonderful life.Somebody at a meeting once told me this and it offered me just the hope that I so desperately needed.Can you offer any Hope to the still suffering addict?
MrDaemonB 1 year ago
12 step programs work...period. If you want it to
lrlbox21 1 year ago
criticism there is noting to critisys about its perfect just the way it is
beingther 1 year ago
methinks this guy doth protest too much. different strokes for different folks surely. i've no need to defend AA here, i don't have a problem with it
petergagu 1 year ago
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@MyLesPaulcopy
"If you really want to stay clean and your willing to do everthing in the program to stay clean, the success will be near 100%"
Circular logic...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
the 12 steps are only suggestions, getting through 24 hours..1 day at a time..it's a simple program for complicated people..the percentage would be much higher if addicts can grasp the concept of 1 day at a time...yes willingness is the key...the 12 traditions are also important...peace
gmccall22 2 years ago
@gmccall22
"the 12 steps are only suggestions, getting through 24 hours..1 day at a time..it's a simple program"
So if I stay clean on a longitudinal basis by abstaining "one day at a time", then I'm "working the program"...
It's THAT simple?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago 3
it could be that simple ! unfortunately it isn't...
you're not working THEE program ! you're working A program...whatever it takes, whatever it takes..
gmccall22 2 years ago
@gmccall22
So it's NOT such a "simple program" is it?
In fact, the mental gymnastics required to make some semblance of sense to it, is astounding for such a :simple program"...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
staying clean for a hardcore addict is never simple, especially those that are early in recovery..the NA/AA program alone will not keep anyone clean, meetings won't keep anyone clean, meetings are only a fellowship and no more..everyone in the rooms will NOT have our best interest at heart..i went through several different meetings until i found one that has a real, genuine empathy, one that's not cult like, those type meetings do exist...
gmccall22 2 years ago
@gmccall22
Sounds REALLY complicated...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
it's extremely complicated living in active addiction, finding ways and means to get more drugs, holding down a job, relationships, avoiding the law, etc...life's a lot simpler today..
gmccall22 2 years ago
@gmccall22
Why are you picking on me?
I'm a paraplegic in a wheelchair...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
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Humility
This is the process of living life in a positive manner knowing your limitations.
It is not standing in a crowd of drunks and mad people talking about your negatives and failures.
This AA practice is the reason they make it harder to quit then going solo.
sandraplumberd 2 years ago
AA has nothing to do with other 12 steps programs.
Everybody is free to come and go as they pleases.
Everybody is free too moan about succes-rates and so on.
I dare all these criticasters to come with a alternative.
Criticism is so easy.
reverb67 2 years ago
There is a lot of critizisim because it has extremely poor outcome, infact there is no outcome success. There are just coinsidences, they can not predict who the fuck is going to get clean. Suite the basters, if they are funded by the Federal or any government funds they are violating the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Go to Gabito Grupos and find Suite 12 Step Programs.
There are 8 Federal Cases and I am working on the 9th. Contact your ACLU and make a complain.
Picaro1 2 years ago 10
@Picaro1 really?? please tell me you're kidding. 2.1 million coincidences? government funds? please, save the world from your ignorance
BSLisBS 1 year ago 2
@Picaro1 So what do you suggest? The people given a chance to clean themselves up in any kind of rehab program are being given mercy by the judge, they are already convicted of a drug or drinking violation. If you do not want to be faced with any 12 step programs, simply avoid being convicted of a drug charge. its not forced on anyone. Its given as an alternative to some felons. The alternative is mandatory jail sentences instead.
lollipopfop 1 year ago
@Picaro1 its not supported by any kind of government. "fully self supporting".
sobe22bune 1 year ago
@Picaro1 "if they are funded by the Federal or any government funds "
AA doesn't accept outside funds, theres even a limit as to how much AA members can give, its completly self supporting and free.
SCientology is grabbing fed funds with both claws....and its not free.
jonesgerard 1 year ago
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Please visit exposeaa.webs. We are looking for people who have been forced to participate in the 12 step cult by employers and courts. We are also looking for individuals who have been denied an organ transplant for failing to participate in the AA cult. Please tell your story. Together we can change things.
deepthrottle09 2 years ago
This was a good, even handed critique of 12 step. Some people do well with AA and thats OK, but the recovery industry is still trying to cling to fit everyone into this quasi-religious program.
prschuster 2 years ago 12
@prschuster
HOW DARE YOU!!!
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
My Sky Fairy is better than your Sky Fairy
zooromeo 2 years ago
There are none. The vicar of god on earth -- Bill Wilson - had a vision - an epiphany. Thus AA.
dix345 2 years ago
AA is a cult. Plain and simple.
mrfilmnoir68 2 years ago
A CULT that refuses all outside donations and limits the amount its members can give in a year.
A CULT that will not accept bequests from a will.
A CULT that does not promote membership.
A CULT that has a code of "Love & Torrance"I
I wish my church acted in this manner.
51538sonofjim 2 years ago
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AA is responsible for the Nazi Holocaust...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
n.a. is based on spiritual principles, moral philosophy ... ethics ..
heh i should let you say what the hell you want cause its in the traditions ...
or you can come at a n.a. concience meeting
thanks .. if an addict doesnt want help if hes not blown to pieces selling himself in the street for drugs .. yeah youre free .. as far as i know no one obligates addicts to come to meetings ... accept criticism and let go na guys ... love you
totemaisallcyber 2 years ago
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Thx for your comments, The truth doesn't work well for those who come in the rooms thinking they aready have the answers. Most people who don't understand the program are those who have already have it in their heads that it won't work for them or they are too smart for the program, which I have to admit is my favorite. God bless
Godlyguitarman 2 years ago
12 Steppers attack me all the time for refusing to admit I'm powerless over food. I used this video on my blog today (TheSkinnyOnline) so my readers can see it. Thanks!!
belovedideas 2 years ago
Click on the aaalternatives link in the blurb on the side.
It's FULL of sponsored links...
Maybe there's something to that AA argument that guys like this (and Peele et al) are merely trying to carve out a piece of the commercial rehab market for themselves....
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
AA & NA is FREE and doesn't really demand much. Addicts are addicts and I'd rather hang with a clean addict then someone who is using. It may have saved my life. Although I no longer attend meetings and rarely go to functions, I'll always be grateful to both programs. NA/AA works if you work it (the steps). People who really work the steps are very happy. Too bad that most people don't work the steps.
nickybadboy50 2 years ago
@nickybadboy50 aa doesnt demand much?
"every aa member knows that he had to conform... if he deviates too far the penalty is sure is , he sickness and dies. no personal sacrifice is too great"
Bill Wilson
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
@Commonsense11111 I doubt it man. Don't know what you're trying to say?
nickybadboy50 1 year ago
@nickybadboy50 ?????????????
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
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@nickybadboy50
"Don't know what you're trying to say?"
Huh?
Seems pretty clear to me...
AA = CONFORM OR DIE
Get it that time?
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
AA is really not interested in alcoholics in general, but only as they relate to AA itself as potential recruits. In fact AA's main purpose is to keep members coming to meetings & to recruit new members from an endless supply of pigeons.
spacestate 2 years ago 2
Ah your right, damn I have just had a moment of clarity. I see it all now! Damn I feel so much better... what a donkey
Amuck14 2 years ago
its easy to get sober but how long will it last. why is it that you people need to bash this stuff some people feel as tho it works if it dont work for you go get help somwhere else. And you people talk about cults and religion im an athiest and a member of NA you people should be spending more time bashing CHRISTIANITY which is the biggest cult to ever hit man kind instead you waste your time on us addicts.
joeyboones 2 years ago 2
joey - why is questioning/voicing dissent/disagreeing with the 12X12 model invariably cast as 'bashing'? why can't constructive criticism be taken exactly for what it is?
further why is 'bashing' christianity a more acceptable practice? in theory, the church can offer up the same success rates in sobering up addicts/alcoholics as AA or NA (hint: none of the three organizations officially keep figures).
notspeedy0314 2 years ago
as a former stepper i can firmly state that the most cogent criticism of 12 step programs is simply this: by & large they don't work in keeping people sober.
they may enhance a sense of non-denominational 'faith', but they don't work any better or worse than spontaneous remission when it comes to 'abstaining' completely from alcohol or drug intake.
faith-based, feel-good, motivational bloviating that recedes 10 minutes after leaving the meeting. no real, lasting 'solutions'.
notspeedy0314 2 years ago 3
dis agree. If that were true, AA would not exist because no one would go. We would just quit and that would be that. But then, Im not as smart as you. I will say you did your homework, you have a good case against it. If AA go;s away what will be in your gun sights next?
Amuck14 2 years ago
@Amuck14 are you serious??? Scientology exists the moonies exist
hari chrishnas 's exist selling flowers at the airport the KKK exists
shall I go on?
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
x2 Ninjaghostscorpion
I quit on my own. It was difficult and took several tries. The withdrawl from drinking was nasty but at least I didn't have any people preying on my emotionally weak state with christian dogma and outdated homespun logic.
If your gonna get sober and you think you need help go to PROFESSIONALS! Don't go to AA where every idiot thinks they're an expert. Find real doctors and do rational recovery.
viper8red 3 years ago
Amen to that my friend well said
shnos 2 years ago
its not about being sober its about living a life where you can actually feel good about yourself.
samieldarklord357 2 years ago
Well what do I do if my real doctor is in my morning meeting? As for your idiot generalization, you paint alot of people that I KNOW you have not done the things in life they have. Unless you too have walked on the moon..... loser
Amuck14 2 years ago
I think there's a better way. The 1 step recovery program.
Step #1-Stop drinking so damn much.
No one twists your arm to drink booze, that's your decision. You've always had power over alcohol. It's whether or not you decide to actually do something about it that matters.
NinjaGhostScorpion 3 years ago
Although I am against the 12 steps, it's really not that easy. Trust me I've been trying like hell for awhile and I'm normally a pretty strong-willed person.
badtown88 2 years ago
no the biggest criticisms are that 12 steps don't work,
it is a bait and switch to you into a religious cult the cult is based on self-loathing
the senior members abuse the newcomers at a weak time in their life and use scare tactics and coercion to keep them there
Commonsense11111 3 years ago
YES YES YES They keep them there for there money!!!!! And then they fuck them all in the ass!!!!! Yes you are so right on bro, damn I wish to God I had seen this 15 years ago I can nevedr get those years back!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Well but then I would have never had those years. Well at least without doing them behind bars such enlightenment around here. Im sure the whole thing will collapse any day now.......Donkies
Amuck14 2 years ago
"And then they fuck them all in the ass!!!!!"
I'm glad someone brought this up because I've always wanted to ask this question:
Why is there so much male-male sexual assault in AA?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Well this whole Anti AA thing is just so pathetic, its just a bastion for the absurd. Of all the rightous fights you could take up in life like hunger a group of about 20 lonley souls would take up such a cause. It is a big planet and AA just keeps growing so it of no consequence but it is just plain old bizzare. Look up Alcoholics Anonymous and Nambla: Partners in Ideals part 1 and this little gem.
Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay Sadomasochism. Tell me he is not dying to come out of the closet.
Amuck14 2 years ago
Well I think that some people get upset by the fact that AA is RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COLD BLOODED MURDER OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENT ALCOHOLICS!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Yes as we type we are making lamp shades of their skins soap from their fat and seem to be running low on Zyklon B. But dont worry, what we dont kill the bottle will Blah Ha ha ha its a perfect no win situation for das alchies!!! You can run but you cannot hide Veee shall find you. Such sillyness~~~ Wooo hoo its Friday!!!! Great to be sober, morning meeting was awsome!!!!!!!!!
Amuck14 2 years ago
great post!
quickcap 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Amuck14 "meeting was awesome?" how many did you abuse there?
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
LOL Hammer you have a such a propensity for grandiosity. If ANYTHING killed tens of millions of anything it would be world news. come one man, you do have the ability to respond in a mature matter, thats just plain silliness~ G day
Amuck14 2 years ago
AA killed them...
TO DEATH!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Hammer I do typicall like a lot of what you have to say about psycho-emotional stuff it is an interesting concept, and hey there may be something to it. But man you put yourself in with some rally embassing company when you do this. Donkeys like, 2p, godlessweasal, and my all time favorite commonsense1111 . Your way to good for that. Gday!
Amuck14 2 years ago
@Amuck14 methinks thou doth protest too much!
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
Is that a joke?
magesveer 2 years ago
Probably...
I can actually remember...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
OK, I get it.....
magesveer 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
You got spammed for that?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
@Amuck14
so the truth comes out when you decompensate
Commonsense11111 1 year ago
@Commonsense11111 even Bill Wilson said the primary purpose is to serve God
breda83 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
10 I allowed a bunch of angry self proclaimed alcoholics to continuously break down my will.
11. I was told to speak with an invisible man in the sky or my toaster and ask them what to do on every decision that I made. When I told the sponsor that my toaster and invisible man did not answer me, he said that he heard them talking. He said that he had years of experience and so he could hear the invisible voices. I then, did want he told me, the voices were telling me to do.
AAPetofile 3 years ago
The more these shrinks seem to know about addictions, the less experience they have had in their own lives with addictions and the more they seem to charge and hour. Everybody wants to form their own little group whether its AA, Smart Recovery RR, Moderation Therapy, Psychotherapy, SAVE YOUR MONEY, all you need to know is: you can do whatever the hell you want! All these groups do is try to convince you of that.
stichelman 3 years ago
What about Jesus?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
How many people has this guy died while he was
charging them 140 bucks per hour, 12 steps are
free no leaders see this guy will try and lead you.
Brough1111 3 years ago 3
12 step is rubbish unless you're prone to jumping on the "higher power" bandwagon.
I'm not saying this guy knows better, I've never seen him before in my life. But that doesn't change the fact that you need skilled psychologists in order to run a successful rehab program. And skill does not come free.
gschjetne 3 years ago
"How many people has this guy died"?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago 2
How many people has this guy cured?
sidecrank 3 years ago
"Cured" of what?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
The next annual convention of the Alcoholics Anonymous Haters Society will be held on April first 2009. at the Motel 6, room 32, in Marion Ohio. Don't miss it!
rimshot2008 3 years ago
The next AA convention after that will be held on the 4th of July at the Maryland Hospital for the Insane, Locked Ward, Isolation Room 19.
Be there...
Hammersley1967 3 years ago