Dr. Algar Critiques "Iranian Exiled Women Memoirs"

[afshinPROF]

it's like watching one of Qaddafi's speeches....

[CyrusTab]

I am a Berkeley Alum and heard Algar speak on a number of occasions. While he is deemed an expert on Iranian language and history for certain historical periods, his lectures always suggested a lack of expertise, and blind ideological bias (pro-Islamic Republic), as relating to modern Iran.

[zelzalosolh]

...All of this while you call yourself Cyrus and live in USA? Sounds like political refugee greencard bias to me also. In that case perhaps you may not be very tempted to like Mr. Algar. I could understand.

[CyrusTab]

Hmm. Always suggestive of a weak argument to launch a personal, ad hominim attack on a person with whose viewpoints you disagree. I have lived in Iran far longer than Algar ever has. My problem with him is that he is dishonest or otherwise so biased as to not be able to present an objective analysis. He was notorious, even among other professors, at Berkeley for that. I drafted a number of papers at Berkeley and was always cautious when using anything he had written as a source.

[SpeedOverStrength]

@zelzalosolh cold but true.

read a few of this guys books, pretty informative.

[letranger1217]

"iran is the land of no" to the desire of homosexual men to not be executed by hanging for simply being gay.

[zelzalosolh]

You are acting as if there is actually a considerable amount of homosexuals in Iran. This is not the case. Also, most ordinary people find it shameful to even accept homosexuality in Iran.

[letranger1217]

1) How would you go about ascertaining how many homosexuals there in fact are? Who would come forward to volunteer that information when they are menaced with the threat of execution?

2) Why would you choose to proclaim the intolerance of your nation as an issue of pride?

[zelzalosolh]

1) I do not consider Homosexuality something biological. Although there is an attempt to prove it. Social sciences argues differently. We each choose ourselves if we are Gay or Straight (this is taught to us after birth, see Freud). So it is natural that in Iran there are less Homosexuals because society does not teach nor allow it.

2) I see it as a form of social corruption that goes against religion and the natural course of reproduction which evolution requires.

[CyrusTab]

Then why is there homosexuality in the animal kingdom? Certainly, if homosex is not biological or instinctive but rather learned, then why do animals engage in the behavior?

[zelzalosolh]

Im glad you chose to ignore the fact that homosexuality goes against evolutionary theory. It is a learned urge. Being attracted to something, animals, same gender, etc. can be individually learned through a number of environmental constructions. It is too weak to claim these are biological. Of course, genes also play a role if you become homosexual or not. But this is minimal to the bigger picture.

[CyrusTab]

You contradict yourself and argue based upon your religious bias. Still, whether learned or genetic, the treatment of homosexuals in Iran is shameful and not befitting a historically tolerant nation. If they are such a small number (and thus no real threat) then why treat them so poorly?

[HesamRahmani17]

Listen, 8% of Sheep's engage in Homosexual activity, biologically speaking. Even if 99% of those sheep's engaged in Homosexual activity, tell me, would it then be okay to engage in that act? If you want to be a sheep.. by all means.. but if you want to be a servant of Allah, you don't engage in Homosexual acts because GOD TOLD you NOT to.

[CyrusTab]

Also, I do not have a problem with you disagreeing with homosexuality. My problem is with the inhumane way you think homosexls should be treated. I promise you, homosexuality existed thousands of years BEFORE Islam, it exists now during Islam, and it will exist after Islam.

[HesamRahmani17]

If there is no human leg, or female, or any source of outlet, it resorts to the other male in the group who is also in search of an outlet. Furthermore, humans are the only species to call it 'wrong' because unlike the animals, we have free will, and a Fitrah (spiritual nature) and a Nafs (animalistic desire), not just Tabi'at (biological nature). Homosexuality is a tendency that is created and materialized through different humans.

[HesamRahmani17]

We have Hadiths and Quranic Verses telling us that we are capable of being higher than angels or lower than demons because of free will, either of the two extremes. We must control our tendencies as a Jihad of the Nafs. The West has brainwashed people to put Biology over the Spiritual Nature, whereas in Islam its the other way around. If you have further ?'s, please privately message me brother, I would be glad to answer. I apologize Lawrence2323 for discussing this ugly issue on your video.

[HesamRahmani17]

I urge you brother to try and understand this key point in our school of thought, and if you still have problems pertaining to this issue, I suggest going through the step-by-step process of Usul e Din.

[CyrusTab]

Perhaps you could explain it to me. However, you use an unfair hypothesis to try to make your point...99% of sheep engaging in such activity. The fact is that for virtually all species in the animal kingdom (as well as humans) there is a 5-10% homosexty rate. Only humans have this bizarre need to call it "wrong." Tell me, if you agree that this behavior can be biolog inspired, and Allah created all in creation, then is it not correct that Allah created homosexls? Then why castigated them?

[HesamRahmani17]

I wish you would look deeper into the answer I gave brother. It would be of extreme benefit for you. However, I will fulfill the obligation of forbidding the evil in answering your question in detail. We established that there in fact IS a 5-10% homosexuality rate in animals. The reason for this being is very simple: often times, when there is an absence of a female, the alpha-male is in need of an outlet, therefore, if he is a pet, he substitutes the female with his owners leg.

[HesamRahmani17]

Now I ask you this: for some people, like homosexuality a small percentage, a father and daughter or brother and sister have a tendency for incest. Others like to fornicate with dead bodies (necrophilia). And oh yes, biology has failed to inform you that these tendencies, along with rape, murder, and cannibalism, are all present in animals. Tell me, why are humans the only species to call it wrong? Or do you suggest that there are no problems with these also.

[HesamRahmani17]

So I urge you brother to set forth your perception of morality by establishing the existence of God, His Justice, Prophethood, Imamate, etc (Usul e Din). Once you have done that, you will understand that you have been brainwashed into believing that an equation is more valuable than a hadith or quranic verse. Fasting is apparently a detox solution for eliminating Toxins in your body. Do you fast because of its Benefits/Harms? Or do you fast b/c God told you so through your principles & values?

[HesamRahmani17]

Homosexuality has existed since the time of Prophet Lot and will exist until the Ultimate Justice is established under the Imam of our Time. Allah says in the Holy Quran: "And Lot, when he said to his people, 'What! Do you commit an outrage none in the world ever committed before you?! Indeed you came to men with desire instead of women! Rather you are a profligate lot.' .... Then We poured down upon them a rain of stones. SO OBSERVE HOW WAS THE FATE OF THE GUILTY!" - 7:80-84

[CyrusTab]

I will respect your argument, although I disagree with it. It does disconcert me to have homosexuality be equated with rape, murder, incest, cannibalism, etc. as homosexuality is betwen consenting adults and no one is killed/victimized/harmed. May I reason, then, that you believe that a homosexual deserves the punishment meted out for murderers, rapists, etc.?

[HesamRahmani17]

I ask of you, why does it disconcert you to have homosexuality equated with incest, for example? Please don't think of it as too out of the ordinary. Homosexuality was seen as an atrocious act just 50 years right here in the heart of the West, the United States. So, in another 50 years, lets say, if a brother and sister who are adults and both consent and agree to marriage, would it then be ok? They're not killing, victimizing, or harming everyone else, so why can't they practice their freedom?

[HesamRahmani17]

This is a very utilitarian and hedonistic answer you gave me, in which the West has brought you to understand and value above all. In any case, yes, not me, but God has issued a Man engaging in homosexual activities witnessed by four Just men deserves the penalty of death. inA I will very humbly give you my own insignificant, very little interpretation and reasoning regarding this: A man engaging in such an act is like a cancer in the body - it will multiply and multiply until it has overcome...

[HesamRahmani17]

... the society as a whole and spread oppression (going against The Almighty's Command) until it has consumed the society into devaluing its act, much like it did to the society in Prophet Lot's time all the way to how it has today, exactly as it did then. The only way to stop this cancer from spreading is to kill it in its early stages. (That is why President Ahmadinejad implied that homosexuality isn't a problem in Iran like it is in the West.).

[HesamRahmani17]

Oh one last thing, reading between the lines of your answers, I feel as though you may not have a problem in homosexual activity, per se, but have more of an intolerance of their execution in specifically Iran. Iran's government is an attempt at an Islamic government with Islamic rulings. In the West, its values are of money: commit treason with a lot of cash and more often than not you're sentenced to life in prison or execution. In Islam, its the good health of the society.

[CyrusTab]

Listen, I understand your point. But you are arguing from a purely belief oriented view. I am arguing from a humanistic/logistic framework, so perhaps we cannot agree. I simply cannot accept your argument based on the claim that "well, God does not allow it", etc. Logically speaking, how can homosexuality be equated with murder? Also, a child born out of incest will suffer from deformities, mental retardedness, etc. and it is sensible to make it illegal.

[CyrusTab]

However, while we may not agree w homosex, there is little evidence of it being damaging to society or spreading like "cancer", as you say. I promise you, as a percent of society, there is as much homosex in Iran as America, no more in Ancient Greece than today. And, despite living in America, I can promise you that homosex can only spread so far; I, for instance, and most others, cannot possibly imagine engaging in it. Finally, if this conversation is offensive to you, I will end it here.

[HesamRahmani17]

InshaAllah lets end it here if we may, my Islamic duty was to inform you, I usually don't debate online but I read your comment and thought it to be beneficial if you heard the Islamic view. As far as arguing from a belief oriented view, that is a whole different topic altogether, in which ideally there is absolutely no such thing as 'humanistic' or 'morality' w/o religion. I again urge you to capture my main point in establishing the Usul e Din. May God Almighty Guide us all, Peace be upon you.

[CyrusTab]

Thank you for the civil debate.

[ZedYahood2]

@letranger1217

I bet you would not eat the meat of a chicken that has been fucked in the ass; would you?

[McLennon23]

1) When has anybody been hanged for being gay?

2) How would they even go about locating "gay" people if you have to have four witnesses of sexual acts to even prove this in a court?

I suggest you do a little research before making such grandiose statements..

[letranger1217]

1) they were hung under the absurd charge of rape of a child, yet no victim was produced.

2) did i ever claim the iranian theocracy followed normative fiqh?

what compels you to be a proponent of theocratic fascism?

[persiandudeee]

This guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

[maydayfire]

islamic iran: land of martyrdom... nobody messes with it