Longsword Formal Exercise 1: The Zornhau

[Schlachtschule]

By the way, folks, I am perfectly aware that this video is not a great example of our art. I said as much in the text. It was the first time we'd even tried going through a formal exercise like this, and it was posted not to show how cool we are, but to discuss the ideas it represents.

[Zwerchhau]

Our record and our efforts speak for themselves. So do yours.

[Schlachtschule]

@Zwerchhau Yes, which is why you should be appalled at having been led astray so badly. But don't feel bad yourself: It really isn't your fault. I've talked to people who used to be in ARMA, and they say that when you don't know a lot, the garbage Clements spews can seem real, especially when you tinge it with all sorts of macho nonsense as he does. Now, however, is your chance to break away and actually do something *martial*, instead of just playing tag with toy swords. It's up to you.

[caracalla1963]

@Schlachtschule How exactly, in your opinion, has Zwerchhau been led astray? Also, speaking to ex-ARMA folks doesn't mean very much since it is quite possible they left the organization because they were not capable of meeting ARMA standards of performance. Additionally, can you clarify as to what your beef with John Clements is about? He has done much to advance the understanding of the Art in both research as well as demonstration. 

[Schlachtschule]

@caracalla1963 He's been led astray because he's been told that test cutting has value, when the evidence strongly indicates it does not--if it did, real warriors would have done it. I don't care why people leave ARMA, failing to meet their standards seems like a positive thing to me. My beef with JC is the fact that he spreads a lot of bad info (e.g., test cutting, edge blocking, dozens of other issues) as if it were true, when the evidence indicates it is not. (continued)

[Schlachtschule]

@caracalla1963 In fact, I think it's easy to argue that all of Clements' bad mistakes and false pronouncements have hindered the study of HEMA, not advanced it. He is skilled at appealing to what people want to hear, but that's not the same thing as saying he's skilled in the art or knowledgeable about it. Clements seems incapable of admitting to making a mistake; look at all the sources that specifically say to displace edge on edge, for example, yet he continues to argue against it.

[Schlachtschule]

@caracalla1963 This forum is far too limited for a detailed discussion of this sort in 400-letter blocks. E-mail me if you really want to understand. In short, no one anywhere has done as much to hinder the study of HEMA as Clements.

[Zwerchhau]

Actually cutting with a sword causes bad habits? That's like saying "we stand and pose with guns but we never shoot them, that would cause bad habits." "We don't ever actually train to fight, we just pose and look good." - For those who actually want to learn how to fight, for real, with the weapons of this period ARMA and other groups who actually have some martial focus and intent are what you want. Die "Schlechtschule " will offer you nothing but Klopffechterei.

[Schlachtschule]

@Zwerchhau Simple comparisons: Modern soldiers *do* shoot their weapons to train with them, therefore to emulate them, you should shoot. Medieval warriors did *not* practice test cutting to learn to use swords, therefore to emulate them, you should not do test cutting. Sorry, it's just one more (of many) thing Clements has led you all astray about.

Oh, and a Klopffechter was a show fighter, who used big, flashy, unrealistic moves--exactly like the ARMAteers teach! Pot, kettle!

[Schlachtschule]

@Zwerchhau talhoffer.blogspot.com/2008/02­/myth-of-test-cutting

This thing won't allow links for some reason, so you have to add the htt stuff at the beginning of the URL and "dot h t m l" at the end (without spaces) in order to get it. I don't know why I bother, folks in the ARMA cult are pretty brainwashed into ignorance, but you never know--we might bring one of you to a real martial approach. Read it. Try to learn, and try to cast off your programming.

[Zwerchhau]

ARMA is a joke? You guys don't even free-play, test cut, or have any martial aptitude. Our instructors are world class athletes with long combatives and in some cases military experience, yours...well, like they say a picture is worth a thousand words

[Schlachtschule]

@Zwerchhau ARMA is a joke, yes. The dogma of John Clements is no excuse for a lack of research. We don't test cut for very good reasons--real warriors didn't, it's not necessary, and it causes bad habits, as anyone can see who watches your videos. We do freeplay, just not Bloßfechten freeplay, and I have more than 25 years of armored freeplay experience. I'm an experienced martial artist, and I, too, am ex-military. Don't talk about things about which you know nothing.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan As for the link, I just checked and it works fine. Unfortunately, this site won't let me post actual links, so you have to fiddle with the URL a bit. It's "talhoffer.blogspot.com/2009/0­5/edge-on-edge-contact" You have put the usually h t t p stuff in front and the dot h t m l stuff at the end.

And don't write again: I have no tolerance for rude people who aren't wualified to have an opinion who jump in with insults before anything else. Wannanbe. You will be blocked.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan Yes, son, I have resorted to petty insults--you know, like the one with which you rudely opened this conversation? Talk about rude!

And you don't know anything about using them properly. where's your evidence? where are you citations?  What books did you use for your understanding fo tyhe medieval masters' words on the subject? None, eh? Then you aren't qualified to have an opinion.

And ARMA is a joke. Few people take their nonsense seriously.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan Continued: But good swords, used properly, don't have that problem. And I gather you didn't bother to read my blog entry to which I directed you: If you had, you'd know that *real* swords got chewed up--it's just what happens. Fortunately, our Fechterspiels don't because they have very wide edges. Don't write back until you've gotten a bit of eductaion. You sound like an ARMA wannabe.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan "In your experience?" Kid, my guess is that you have *no* experience. We hit as hard as is necessary, and we only use Arms and Armor Fechterspiels--far better than those kindergarten-level Federschwerts. The fact is you've been reading things on the internet written by folks with no more knoweldge of this subject than you have, and you take their word for it. Sure, cheap bouters can get damaged edges, especially when playing with swords with sharper edges (as most schools do).

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan And if you watch more colsely, you'll see that this is a true Zornhau Ort: I displace his cut by meeting his weak and driving through it to wedge him out of the way which makes room for my thust. The thrust is a little high because Matthew pushes my point up a bit earlier than I wanted him to for demonstration purposes (although perfectly likely in a real fight), but as I said, this was our first day experimenting with this form. You need to learn before you judge.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan I assumed a JMA fan because Kissaki refers to the tip of a katana.

And yes, I am displacing correctly. Perhaps you can't see it, but I met the weak of his blade first. We work this *constantly* in class.

And my sword has never needed to be replaced nor is it in frequent need of repair--a little touch up with a file now and then is all. You have to get over this misconception about edge-on-edge contact--it's nonsense, and it's contrary to what the manuals tell us.

[Schlachtschule]

@KissakiSan Quite right. And if there is actually anyone in the community who doesn't understand that displacements are often done edge-on-edge, then all I can do is to direct you to my blog:

talhoffer.blogspot.com/2009/05­/edge-on-edge-contact dot h t m l

Or, since you seem to think yourself of Japanese persuasion, read Otake-shihan's "Katori Shinto Ryu" where he explicitly says that displacements are made edge on edge. Study your subject before you make comments, young man.

[Andrhens]

Good video.

[Schlachtschule]

Thank you. We have a lot of work to do on these yet, but I think this is a good start. This is the first of 12 such exercises that encompass most of our primary curriculum.

[godzillaben]

great if your opponent was to passively stand there while you staped him.

[Schlachtschule]

In the first place, this exercise is intended as an experiment in developing a set of formal longsword exercises, so it hasn't been practiced much yet. In the second, it's shown slowly so people in our classes can watch and learn the techniues. It was not intended to be done at blinding speed to impress outsiders with our abilities with swords, or to show people how well we "staped" (sic) people.

[Schlachtschule]

Thank you.

[MarkHolgate]

Nicely executed.