ich glaube der auf dem drachen hat asthma oder raucht zu viel ... und das schwein am ende hatte wohl seine nase in osteuropa billig richten lassen. *g*
I just hope that PJ won't ruin Gandalf in "The Hobbit". Maybe he'll insert a scene in the extended edition of the Hobbit where Gandalf gets his ass kicked by an Orc chieftain or something, lol. Then I'll have to do a new edit. This time in english :)
lol i liked it! I completely agree with u (i have read the silmarillion many times; its my FAVORITE!). I understand why P.J made this though, he wanted it to seem like, to the audience, that there was no hope for Minas Tirith. he should have shown this in the damn movie theater, because i was really confused why gandalf didnt have his staff when he saved faramir and at the black gate! rest assured, PJ will be punished for his blasphemy against the Holy Books of Tolkien.
Also, guys, let's not forget Gandalf's elvish ring that increased his power in the area of fire, and put courage into men's hearts, enough to counter the Nazgul fear. One of the nine rings with a little borrowed power from a Maiar vs an elvish ring with limited Maia power. I'd go with Gandalf in this situation, but that's my opinion and I may very well be wrong.
All nine of the nazgul were defeated by a river that Gandalf and Elrond controlled. Though the WK was closer to Mordor at Minas Tirith, he was alone in the movie scene, and Gandalf was a white wizard. However, if Sauron did manage to get the ring, the WK and other Nazgul would become insanely more powerful like their master, the powers are always linked.
If the Witchking was that powerful, why could Aragorn drive him and a couple of other Nazgul away at weathertop and why did the Nazgul flee from Glorfindel alone?
Peter Jackson didnt ruin this scene at all i think, only for the people who are so desperate want to see the movie like it was in the book, or who dont want to let their hero look bad.
What Peter Jackson should have done is some realy cool fight scene between them, its what the trilogu needed actually. Because Sauron coudnt fight in it, let the Witch King steal the show. It would have shown the exact power of gandalf and The witch King are very close, but not like this i have to agree.
gandalf would have nothing to fear from the witch king. he is 1 step down from a valar, as is sauron. oh and gandalf isnt a man, he is a wizard/maiar.
I think that this dark riders and witch king would die after cutting their finger down with their rings ? or not ? cause the rings where the items witch corrupted them...
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
@The4Experience have found it : "Gandalf: The enemy that Faramir has to confront is way too strong.Becase the one who i feared the most has come.The one who was once the King of Angmar and the King of the Ulairi.
Denethor: Tell me,Gandalf, you have come back just to tell us this? Or perhaps you have retreated because the enemy has proved to be stronger than you?
Gandalf:Perhaps it is so...But if the ancient words are true "Not by the Hand of a Man shall he die"
Yes, there are some powers in that world that are greater than Gandalfs, and that is Sauron, maybe some other Maiar. Because there are several other citations that imply that Gandalf is the 2nd most powerful being after Sauron:
1.Aragorn: "The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads."
Yes, and Glamdring, the sword of Gandalf is by no means ordinary. It is an ancient elven sword that belonged to the King of Gondolin, one of the mightiest high elves of the old age. In addition he has a staff that channels his magic powers.
@The4Experience The Witch King's Morgul-Fire blade is more powerfull than Glamdring and without gandalf's staff .... The Lord of Morgul will probably win
You fools....you have to remember that the Witch-King of Carn-Dum is The King of the Nine Riders, HE is the ONE who has bringed Arnor, Osgiliath and Minas Ithil to complete destruction...He is also a socerer and a warrior of old which has the most powerful ring of power from those given to men ....His power is deadly...In the book Tolkien says that when Grond smashed the gate of Minas Tirith, it was not yet destroyed...The witch king's magic is the one who has breaked it
Fool is often the one who accuses others of being fools.
First of all Gandalf is a lesser god, an ethereal being who cannot be destroyed, wielding an even more powerful ring than the wretched witch king. The ring of fire from Cirdan himself. Uncorrupted by the will of Sauron.
Gandalf was in his grey form able to destroy a balrog of morgoth, one of the most powerful beings in middle earth, superior in strength to the WK. As the white, he was even more powerful !
@The4Experience I am not saying that the witch king is more powerfull than gandalf...But he would have been a tough opponent...Tougher that the Balrog of Morgoth..In fact this is the reason why Gandalf feared Him...He is not only a blade warrior he is also a "Witch"....Please do not forget this
Yes I agree that he is a worthy opponent, but Gandalf did not fear him in the books. On the contrary, in the gate scene of the third book, he defies the witchking, and hinders him to enter Minas Tirith. Fear looks different to me.
Plus, I don't think that the witchking is tougher than the Balrog. A Balrog is a corrupted Maia, that has deadly magic spells and sorcery in its arsenal and fought in ancient times for Morgoth when the Witchking didn't even exist.
Yeah this version is much better! You should make another version that makes Gandalf use his staff to knock the witch king off the nazgul and cause the minas tirith ruins to fall on him! That would be awesome!
I think peter's version sucks but i think i was said in the book that the withking tried to enter minas tirith but he couldn't because he cant beat gandalf! But it was never said that gandalf had beathen the witchking either so i would say standoff. also the fight on the weathertop. gandalf arived there and saw the nine but he could match with them so he fled and 4 followed him so he succeded in that way.
but- it DID happen- in BOOK I! On Weathertop, Gandalf the GREY fought all Nine...and lived. one power boost later, and even super-Witch-King wouldn't stand a chance. but WK wouldn't die either. prophecy.
what would happen is something similar to what happened to Sauron at Mt. Doom.
-wields the sword Glamdring and the fire ring called Narya
-7."Cannot be slain by a man, for he himself was once a great King of men."Um no he cant be killed cuz he is a ghost but with higher abilities making it hard for men to kll him
The Witch-king would never be stronger than Gandalf, who is a Maiar, the Witch-king is of man descent, no matter how powerful Sauron is he can't make a man that can hurt a Maiar, let alone break their staff!
If the Witch-king and Gandalf had a real fight, Gandalf would pwn his ass!!!!
I would have really liked a standoff like in the book. I always wonder why Peter Jackson had to ruin this scene. A standoff would have been way cooler.
They didn't not fight in the book because they both knew they would destroy each other. They stood there for a while before the horn sounded.There are biased people who think that one was more powerful, but remember that Gandalf was sent to counter the will of Sauron, and even though the Witch King was given more dark energy, Gandalf was sent back prepared for that. They both knew that engaging one another was a bad idea, clearly. Also, the prophecy is a moot point.
They both knew that engaging one another was a bad idea, so they didn't. They stood there for a while before the horn sounded. Gandalf came back to Middle Earth prepared for the The more powerful Witch King. They would have destroyed each other. A mortal man with an immortal existence versus an immortal Maia. The prophecy is a moot point.
I was just re-reading the history of Feanor. How a lowly Noldor elf created the Silmarils that no Valar could duplicate. Maia vs Maia does not always mean a tie battle. Each has a piece of Illuvatar's song, and how they've improved it through their research, lore, crafting, experience makes a difference. I know his armor, annoiting oil, sword and mace are all higher power/craft items. For eg. his morning star is reforged from Grond, Mace of power wielded by Melkor/Morgoth in the First Age
People make a deal out of this scene because it assumes certain facts that are not stated for certain within the books. It assumes that the Witch King has the strength to overcome Gandalf, when actually within the books, he himself is a Maia, and even says that "I am the most powerful being you shall meet...lest we go to the halls of the Dark Lord himself" or something to that meaning. However, he may not have taken the empowerment of the WK into consideration, so it's hardtogiveadefiniteanswer.
in middle earth, Gandalf was not as powerful as sauron, the witch king or the balrog. he was a man not a maia. the gods sent him to middle earth in order to aid men and provide the hardiness and fire to help light a fire under men's ass's. if the gods sent gandalf to middle earth with all the power he had in valinor, then there would be no point in him trying to unite men against sauron. He himself would be able to lead the war. the gods decided that this was man's battle. gandalf is a man.
i like how they tried to make it seem like gandalf beat thre witch king here. gandalf got his ass kicked by the KING in the books and in the real clip.
@barahir78 ur a dumb fuck if u actually read the book, those two just had a standoff. plus if they were to fight, and if u knew about the history of the Eru and lluvatar, then ud know gandalf would've shitted all over witch king. dumb fuck go read before u make up your own story.
yes, gandalf is more powerful then the witch king, who is not a maia only a corrupted man, and also, the power given to the witch king was all the sauron could give the nine, and his servents. i do not believe that the power of the evil side can rise beyond a certain point, as it is said in the silmarillion that the more power morgoth spent, the weaker he became saurons extra power came from mount doom, where he made the ring so no the witch king is only so powerful, while gandalf grows in power
I have not yet read the books, but I would love too. I think it's what I am going to do this summer. And the movies are terrific, the movies they always capture my attention, always.
One could counter by saying Melkor/Morgoth was the mightiest valar ( just like The Silmarillion says) but still he gets owned by Ungoliant and Tulkas BEFORE he loses much of his power by passing it into his creations.....and even gets laid low by a half breed maiar/Sindarin elf ( Luthien song)
Let us not forget the ringwraiths wore rings of their own coupled with Saurons will. The Book is the be all end all of Canon but Olorin getting thwomped by the Chief Wraith isnt above possibility.
If you want to refer to Morgoth and Ungolianth, note that Ungolianth was driven away by Balrogs - the same Balrogs of which Gandalf defeated one. Tolkien notes that the primary weapon of the Nazgul was fear. They were never combat monsters. Much like Sauron himself, they put their emphasis in organisation, destabilisation and wreaking chaos. Even if Sauron infused the witch king with additional power for the battle, he's still far away from a Balrog.
The only reason saruman lost his powers when his staff broke was because gandalf, the new leader of the istari was expelling saruman from the order of the istari. The WK breaking gandalfs staff wouldn't have taken his powers away. Plus, gandalf still had his ring to draw from. Even in his humanoid istari form, gandalf had his own powers plus the rings power (which was equal if not greater than WK's) to draw from.
Just a thought here...I know Gandalf's staff does not break in the book, but does his staff breaking necessarily imply that the Witch King is more powerful than Gandalf? Or just that the Witch King is able to break a piece of wood? I don't know everything there is to know about the Istari, but I would imagine their power comes from within, not from the staff they are holding.
@YouDontKnowBill well, I think Peter Jackson break the story, with that scene, mabe because Gandalf start to unbelieving in men, and he start to think he will not survive this. the witch king sens it, and he felt stronger than gandalf.. but that's just what I think.
However, I completely agree with wizardistari. Isn't it said in the Silmarillion that Gandalf was the second most powerful being in middle earth during the war of the ring after Sauron alone? He did not write this without purpose.
And how could Sauron enhance a corrupted man to such an extent that he would be more powerful than a Maia? Impossible I would say.
@todorius because gandalf was not a maia in middle earth. he was a man. and the gods only gave him so much power. along with the other 4 wizards. Saruman being the most powerful, then gandalf.
@todorius I don't know if it ever said Gandalf was the most powerful. It did say he was the wisest of the Maiar, while Saruman was powerful and great in craft.
There is a line in the books that goes like this: 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Also I think in the Silmarillion it is said that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle earth at the time of the ring war.
In the Silmarillion, Sauron is the strongest Maia in existance, rivaling the lesser of the valar.
However, after he crafts the ring, Tolkien specifically mentions that Sauron had surpassed his master Melkor in power.
Melkor was the strongest being in existance before hand. Even rivaling Eru to an extent.
Eru empowered Gandalf to fight Sauron, so Sauron feared Gandalf. However, the Witch King had over 1,000 years to perfect himself. He was an immortal wraith with limitless>
@todorius strength, so he spent it perfecting magic. Now in the begining of the fifth book, Tolkien has Gandalf and the Witch King stand off. During this time, Gandalf does not overpower the Witch King, and the Witch King doesn't overpower him. Which puts them at the least equal. However, the fact that Tolkien's sequel was to be based around the return of the Witch King, without limitations to his power (Being bound to Sauron limited him greatly), shows it even stronger.
@todorius However, the idea was scrapped, because Tolkien realized that if the Witch King returned before the Dagor Dagorlach, there would be an eternal reign of Darkness, no man could best him, and without limitations, he could simply will the gates of Gondor to fall. Aragorn had passed, his son was well aged, and the Elves and Maia were gone. There was no one to fight him.
@todorius No, the Silmarillion does not state that Gandalf was the second most powerful being. Gandalf says (in Lord of the Rings) that he has no power to withstand the Morgul Lord when he leads the Nine, partly because of the fate that was decreed for the Witch King. He was a mighty Sorcerer (the Witch King) in his time, possibly a king of Men. Gandalf was indeed Maiar (as were the Balrogs in their beginning, but their power was squandered)... but even Elves slew Balrogs in ages past
Well first of all, that fight your referring to, never happened in the books. Peter just added that to the film, I guess you can say to have a mini wizard battle. Which was kind of cool by the way. But anyways, Saruman is Curunir, a Ainur of the order of the Maiars. He was very powerful! But in the 3rd age, he was sent to Middle-Earth as an Istari/Wizard.There were ranks, the White, Grey, Brown,and Blue. White being the leader, and most powerful. Saruman at that time own Gandalf.
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@TheHomieRyu, Gandalf is not superior to the Witch King, It was the Horn of the charging Rohirrim (heard in the background) that makes the Witch king fly off.
Haha thank you my friend Todorius! You rock! I love what you did here. I was so mad when Peter did this. For Gandalf would have killed the WK with ease! For he is Olorin a Ainur of the order of Maiars, servant of Eru the one, servant of Manwe Lord of the Valar, he is the wisest of all the Maiar. His powers were way greater than a corrupted man. Sure the WK was a powerful sorcerer, but his powers would never match of a Maiars. To say that, it's just insulting! Gandalf wins case close! Good day!
Wow! Like if that makes a big difference haha!! Just because Sauron gave some of his powers to the WK, that still does not mean that he would be equal in power with Gandalf. You people just don't understand! You people are a disgrace and insult to the true Tolkien fans. Just stop already! Read the books! Such as LOTR, Silmarillion, Lost Tales, etc and you will finally understand! Good day to you!
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@wizardistari, " In Tolkien's letters, the author noted that Sauron was of course a 'divine' person (in the terms of this mythology; a lesser member of the race of Valar). Though less mighty than the chief Valar, he was more powerful than many of his fellow Maiar; Tolkien noted that he was of a "far higher order" than the Maiar who later came to Middle-earth as the Wizards Gandalf and Saruman. So couldn't it be possible for sauron to empower a man to equal or even surpass Gandalf?
Good point there. But you also have to understand that Sauron transfered mostly all or half of his power to the "one ring." So when he gave some of his power to the WK, that still does not make a difference for WK to be equal or even surpass Gandalf. The only way I would agree that WK might have been equal with Gandalf, is if Sauron had the "one ring". But in this case no! So Gandalf still would have killed WK. Good day! Nice try!
Quotes: In Tolkiens writings he said "The Necromancer of The Hobbit is a mere shadow of the Dark Lord of Mordor
who casts his shadow over the whole of Middle Earth" (note the use of the word "casts" vs."casted" to refer to the third age), (The shadow of Mordor in T.R.O.T.K). In the Hobbit page 35, Gandalf said "Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped" (from the Necromancer) Also as I'm sure you know the WK's ring game him immense power, though less then Gandalf.
@dave99944 Yes I know that! But you have to understand that was when he was Gandalf the Grey! He was powerful than, but when he became Gandalf the White, he was even more poweful! When he was the White Wizard, the Valar gave Gandalf some of his Maiar powers back. And allowed him to use more of his power this time. That is why he surpassed Saruman.Gandalf was just a mere shade of matching Sauron's power. And he had the ring Narya. Sauron was nothing without the "one ring." Gandalf wins WK dies!
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Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this specific time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was nearly an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
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Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this specific time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was nearly an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
@wizardistari Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was near an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
@wizardistari But remember in the book saruman is not really white after he is corrupted by sauron. He becomes 'Saruman of many Colours' so the Valar takes most of his powers away and because there must always be a white wizard they make gandalf white to put things right in middle-earth. Remember gandalf says at the Grey Havens, 'my task is done'.
@wizardistari Yeah he just killed thousands of men, corrupted a white wizard, summoned all evil beings in middlearth to his control and would have wone the war of the Ring had it not been for a small unimportant hobbit
@wizardistari Not really... Gandalf was afraid to meet the Witch King in the book, and states that he did not know who was more powerful. The Istari to sent to Middle Earth to encourage men to defeat Sauron themselves, not to intervene directly. And don't forget, Sauron was a Maia too, and if I'm not mistaken was from a higher position then Gandalf and Saruman. He was certainly not 'nothing' without the ring.
I have read the books several times since I was young and I am now 36 so thats alot....Indeed Gandalfs staff was NOT broken in the books BUT Gandalf was not a match for the Witchking especially at that time when Sauron was pouring his will into his chief lieutenant....The prophecy still stood from the second age That he would not meet his end by the hand of man in this case gender. He didnt kill Gandalf because of the arrival of Rohan.. He had to see to the new threat from the north.
Yes, Glorfindel made the prophecy that the witchking would not meet his end by the hand of a man. But, first of all, Gandalf is not a man. He is a Maia, a godlike being. Second, in the Silmarillion, it is stated that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle-earth during the war of the ring. And third: Gandalf was about to chase the witchking after the stand-off, when Pippin convinced him to save Faramir instead. Gandalf is not foolish enough to chase someone who is superior.
@todorius not all true sauraman was the most powerful it even states that saruman was the chief. but you are right that gandalf did become more powerful after he became the white wizard. and in the book we never see gandalf and the witch king fight so who knows how that would have turned out. in the book it does not seem like the witch king was afraid of gandalf. and maybe thats why this scene did not make it into the film in movies. i dont see why people make a deal out of this scene.
@todorius wowow, completly agree with the part of Gandalf being more powerfull than witchking, but not the second in power after sauron. Saruman was more powerfull at the begining, lets remember, in the hobbit Gandalf was afraid of Beorn's wrath for example and recognized him as someone more powerfull than himself. There are several considerations of power in tolkiens universe, of course gandalf was the waisest by far and thats a kind of power, perhaps you understood that, could it be?
@charrokomen I agree with you but Glorfindel 's prophecy was not only taling about gender .The Witch King was actually defeated by the combined force of Éowyn & Merry because if were not for Merry who (unlike the film) stabed the Witch King with an Arnorian blade enchanted with spells against the Witch King . If Éowyn just stabed the Witch King she wpould just made him madder or if Merry was stabbing him with a Rohirrim sword (like the film ) nothing would happen .My point is tecnically one c
@azn3000 It's being a long time but i just finished seeinf the Return of the King And at 1: 10: 58 and to the rest of the sene where Éowyn tells Merry to go to the smithy because he has a blund blade one can clearly see that is a Rohirrim sword and not the ones that (in the book where given to them from Tom Bombadil) were given to them in the first movie by Aragorn on the ruins of Amon Sûl ( Weathertop ) which were clearly Arnorian blades
Jackson probably made the scene because he showed Witch King as the main evil character (sure Sauron, but he had no physical form and was mostly showed with Frodo). Jackson needed to show that Witch King is powerful and scary. Without the scene with Gandalf Witch King would have looked like some crappy helper instead of the arch enemy who doesn't do anything and then suddenly gets beaten by Merry and Eowyn. All in all, Witch King needed to look more powerful, too bad it had to be Gandalf's lost.
Yes, too bad it had to be Gandalf. He could have for example built in the scene where the Witchking shatters the gates of Minas Tirith with his sorcery. That would have also made him look very powerful. And then the stand-off with Gandalf. That would have been superb.
Yeah, Peter Jackson spoiled some characters in Return of the King for cineastic reasons. Among them are besides Gandalf also Aragorn and Gimli as you said.
I like to think that the Witch King woulda stood a chance, he did have Sauron's power behind him, and he was a sorceror. It would make their confrontation in the book seem shallow and pointless if Gandalf is the inevitable victor.
i didnt read the book but i heard from those who did read it that according to book the witch king did broke gandalfs staff and he could kill him but for some reason he didnt.
those who told you that Gandalf's staff got broken in the book were a bunch of liars. That DID not happen in the book. Read it for yourself if you have the time.
Yeah, but Gandalf has his own power (risen from his order as Gandalf the White) and the blessing of the Valar to back him up. Moreover, if the Witch King is a sorcerer, Gandalf is a Wizard, with powers from the blessed realm...
too many holes in the story. gandalf beat a balrog and mastered saruman, but then fights orcs with his sword. why can't he blow down 10 orcs at a time with fireballs etc...? one minute gandalf is this bad ass maiar and next he's fighting with skills of an above avg. soldier.
That's exactly how I felt. The picture of Gandalf is very inconsistent in the movies: He fights off a Balrog as the grey, then when he returns as the white he is depicted invincible:
Surrounded by a radiant white light, immune to regular weapons such as bow, sword or axe.
Also immune to magic spells like Sarumans Fireball. But then in RoTK: He fights with the sword, no spells and to top it all he loses against the witchking. Absolutely inconsistent. And so very stupid by Peter Jackson.
"And Galdalf was definitely not prepared in that scene."
If you were referring to the movie, that is correct-which is quite different from the book...
As a matter of fact, he was about to follow the Witch King when he turned his back and faced the charge of the Rohirrim, only to be stopped because of Faramir's life is in danger. He was definitely prepared.
Todorius, concerning your claim that Gandalf never said that he wasn't sure he would win. He did. In the 4th chapter, Denethor talks with him: "Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?" (...) "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come."
Gandalf is not proud, and hasty in concluding that he is more powerful than any being save Sauron. That is the Witchking's folly. A lesser being felled him.
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord..."
How do you measure danger and what does it have to do with the point of this discussion? Human is the most dangerous creature in the Earth, much greater menace than, let's say, a lion. Yet it is very easy for a lion to kill an unprepared human. And Galdalf was definitely not prepared in that scene.
The fact of the matter is that, Gandalf recognizes his power, but he does not brandish it. He defends as opposed to Sauron and his minions who attacks.
And like what he said, he was in deep thought when saying "It might be so". Bacause he was not foolish, rather in retrospect he sees the possibility of him being defeated, though highly unlikely so.
And was he prepared when he fought the balrog? Also quite a surprise I would say, finding a Balrog of Morgoth, nevertheless he stood his ground against a much more powerful foe than the witchking, even as he was Gandalf the Grey. As the white, he should be even more powerful I think.
@todorius gandalf said he himself "creatures as old as the begining of times" but when talkin about the ents he says "the ents are as old as the creation of time.." explain this plz.
there is a wide degree of difference in the age of origin...
upon the beginning of time it is possible that it was before and during the creation of Ea (the music of the Ainur), and the creation of time might possibly be after the completion of Ea...Because the Ents were created as protectors of the trees
Furthermore, the ents are created as shepherds who will protect the trees specifically from the dwarves at the behest of Yavanna to Mandos, hence their existence...
It's because I love its lore. It has its own old history, language, people, and world. And Tolkien made a very good effort indeed in the creation of LOTR, and its predecessor the Silmarillion.
Imho, the movie was completely wrong on this scene. Consider this: Gandalf was in fact a Maiar, who had the ring of fire, a godlike being, against a servant of Sauron, a corrrupted spirit of men with one of the 9 rings, lesser in power than the ring of fire. Sauron would not have been able to give so much power to the WK, so that he would beat the chief of wizards. Only Sauron himself in physical form could challenge Gandalf at that time, for Gandalf was strongest after only Sauron.
Yeah I gotta admit even though I LOVE these movies and love alot of Jackson's work, they made the right choice in cutting scenes like this out. The Rankin/Bass movies weren't perfect ( liked it but voices like the WitchKing's voice were terrible) but even they got the right idea of not having them actually get the chance to fight. Some of those extended scenes were interesting and had more of the book in them, but some like this were unneeded although he said "I will break him" in the cut.
Still, the WK could not have been enhanced to a level where he would be able to beat a Maia. Manwe himself chose Gandalf to do the job, and not without reason. Being Gandalf the White, his power was greatly increased in comparison to Gandalf the grey, and even then he was able to destroy the Balrog of Morgoth! Losing againgst the WK as Gandalf the White? Ha ! Ha ! It's like the Balrog losing against Boromir, lol !
Yet the Elf Círdan who met him on arrival nevertheless considered him "the greatest spirit and the wisest" and gave him the elven Ring of power called Narya, the Ring of Fire containing a "red" stone, for his aid and comfort.
I don't know any line in the book where Gandalf would state that he is not sure if he could defeat the Witchking. That's a pure invention of the movie. And also, in the Silmiarillion, it is said that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle earth during the time of the ring war.
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"Morinehtar" ~ I think his name is Alatar, not sure at all. Checked Wikipedia, and even the awe-powerful wiki cannot figure it out! Well, it's one of the blue wizard's that are darkness slayers. It's all very misleading, not sure why people debate it.
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Also, todorius, you aren't truly 'angry' at Peter Jackson for 'ruining' the trilogy, are you?
Just asking, because it's a movie, and in my opinion, he did a damn good job. Especially with the lore, considering all the other dry shit crumbs that deliberately consist of book to movie in cinema history.
You are right, I am not really mad at Peter Jackson, because I think that the first two movies were absolutely awesome. But I didn't really like the third one, the interpretation of the characters there is all wrong, and he could have made much more out of it. Still, I am a big fan of the movies overall. This scene just depicts my vision of how the encounter between Gandalf and WK should have been.
I like the depiction of Rivendell and Lothlorien the best...
I'm also very much appreciative of Galadriel's presence plus the way PJ showed Gandalf after he was "sent back at the turn of the tide" as seen in the Fangorn Forest-problem is, PJ had to ruin it on the 3rd installment-stupid move...
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Tolkien didn't really think in D&D stats. In any case, it is misleading to consider the ringwraiths completely independent beings. They are in some sense only extensions of Sauron, and their power depends a lot on how much focus he puts into their current mission.. In this moment, the Witchking was practically a full projection of Sauron's power, so I think it's entirely possible that Gandalf wouldn't have been able to push him back. The movie was not completely on the wrong track there.
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Only if Sauron himself fought through The Witch King, only then would it be fair duel. But then saying that, Gandalf was not a Maia in the true form in the Middle Earth he was still only a wizard and therefore we do not know if his true powers could full manifest while he was a wizard in the Middle Earth. Gandalf did suggest in the book and the movie that he was not entirely sure whether or not he is capable of defeating Witch King.
didn't gandalf scrap with 4 of the nazgul on weathertop? They would have killed him if they could, and he was grey. I a little barbarian girl, and a midget van kill him, I mean come on. The only magic they have is fear, gandalf was not afraid in the book. But when he was surprised by Merry and Eowyn, fear crept into him and he was defeated with it.
I suspect Sauron went he same way as Morgoth - spending his spirit on "petty evils" like the creatiomn of the One Ring and the Nazgul, and while he was indeed a most powerful Maia of Aule in his beginning, he would have been much diminished and ruined by the time of the War of the Ring. One the subject of the witchking, yes he was a ruined spirit that according to the "prophesy" no mortal man could kill - or rather, no mortal man was DESTINED to kill him. Big difference.
Witch King is like:
"Well fuck this"
Jonassoe 1 month ago
DO SCHWEINE HUNDE!
herpderpBAM 1 month ago
german sounds like black speech
sixpointneuf 2 months ago 4
ich glaube der auf dem drachen hat asthma oder raucht zu viel ... und das schwein am ende hatte wohl seine nase in osteuropa billig richten lassen. *g*
WindowsSoftwareDe 5 months ago
now thats what should have happened, Gandalf is the man, and powerful as
MedicAmbo5000 5 months ago
That's how it should have been!!!
Matthewcoakley08 6 months ago
Gandalf is one op mother fucker, a wraith in a black robe is not match for Gandalfs awesome moves.
maggru91 7 months ago
I just hope that PJ won't ruin Gandalf in "The Hobbit". Maybe he'll insert a scene in the extended edition of the Hobbit where Gandalf gets his ass kicked by an Orc chieftain or something, lol. Then I'll have to do a new edit. This time in english :)
todorius 8 months ago
The Witch King In german Sounds fucking awsome
MrWonka191 8 months ago 8
gandalf is supposed to kick his ass gandalf is like where the fuck do you think your going at 0:36 come back here you pussie
epicpieho 8 months ago
lol i liked it! I completely agree with u (i have read the silmarillion many times; its my FAVORITE!). I understand why P.J made this though, he wanted it to seem like, to the audience, that there was no hope for Minas Tirith. he should have shown this in the damn movie theater, because i was really confused why gandalf didnt have his staff when he saved faramir and at the black gate! rest assured, PJ will be punished for his blasphemy against the Holy Books of Tolkien.
zptramel 10 months ago
i like witch king german its scary
garlandtherealchaos5 10 months ago
Also, guys, let's not forget Gandalf's elvish ring that increased his power in the area of fire, and put courage into men's hearts, enough to counter the Nazgul fear. One of the nine rings with a little borrowed power from a Maiar vs an elvish ring with limited Maia power. I'd go with Gandalf in this situation, but that's my opinion and I may very well be wrong.
LordRakton 11 months ago
All nine of the nazgul were defeated by a river that Gandalf and Elrond controlled. Though the WK was closer to Mordor at Minas Tirith, he was alone in the movie scene, and Gandalf was a white wizard. However, if Sauron did manage to get the ring, the WK and other Nazgul would become insanely more powerful like their master, the powers are always linked.
LordRakton 11 months ago
wow u guys really know your stuff ,very cool to read
mtlhcdom 1 year ago
Can somebody translate what they're saying?
StoneKnivesBearskins 1 year ago
when i first saw this scene in the movie i just facepalmed
lordofpwnage 1 year ago
@scAlpha You are not alone ther friend...The Witch king is my favourite character ever !
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
The Witch King rocks, end of story
arnejazoheetik 1 year ago
If the Witchking was that powerful, why could Aragorn drive him and a couple of other Nazgul away at weathertop and why did the Nazgul flee from Glorfindel alone?
musnadi99 1 year ago
Peter Jackson didnt ruin this scene at all i think, only for the people who are so desperate want to see the movie like it was in the book, or who dont want to let their hero look bad.
What Peter Jackson should have done is some realy cool fight scene between them, its what the trilogu needed actually. Because Sauron coudnt fight in it, let the Witch King steal the show. It would have shown the exact power of gandalf and The witch King are very close, but not like this i have to agree.
ivkoacount 1 year ago
gandalf would have nothing to fear from the witch king. he is 1 step down from a valar, as is sauron. oh and gandalf isnt a man, he is a wizard/maiar.
daralzand 1 year ago
I think that this dark riders and witch king would die after cutting their finger down with their rings ? or not ? cause the rings where the items witch corrupted them...
ReikoX7 1 year ago
are you all of you watching this scene in what, russian?
guadalupeodiard 1 year ago
Actually, in the book Gandalf was afraid of Witchking.
MrGirlinterrupted 1 year ago
And the second one:
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."
The4Experience 1 year ago
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WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@The4Experience The return of the king,Chapter IV : The Siege of Gondor
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@The4Experience have found it : "Gandalf: The enemy that Faramir has to confront is way too strong.Becase the one who i feared the most has come.The one who was once the King of Angmar and the King of the Ulairi.
Denethor: Tell me,Gandalf, you have come back just to tell us this? Or perhaps you have retreated because the enemy has proved to be stronger than you?
Gandalf:Perhaps it is so...But if the ancient words are true "Not by the Hand of a Man shall he die"
These are Tolkien wor
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@The4Experience So now you are going to deny Tolkien's OWN words?
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
Yes, there are some powers in that world that are greater than Gandalfs, and that is Sauron, maybe some other Maiar. Because there are several other citations that imply that Gandalf is the 2nd most powerful being after Sauron:
1.Aragorn: "The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads."
The4Experience 1 year ago
@WiseSoul22
Can you please quote the passage in the book where Gandalf seemst to be afraid of the WK?
I agree that in the movie he ist, but that's just an invention of Peter Jackson, and has not much to do with Tolkiens vision.
The4Experience 1 year ago
@The4Experience Here is one from the book but not from the return of the king...I will search for it a little bit later...
"There are many powers in this world...For Good and for Evil...Some are greater than I am and against some i have not yet been tested"
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
The acient prince of Numenor cannot be harmed by ordinary weapons...any ordinary weapon that touches him instantly disintegrates into dust.
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@WiseSoul22
Yes, and Glamdring, the sword of Gandalf is by no means ordinary. It is an ancient elven sword that belonged to the King of Gondolin, one of the mightiest high elves of the old age. In addition he has a staff that channels his magic powers.
That is absolutely not ordinary.
The4Experience 1 year ago
@The4Experience The Witch King's Morgul-Fire blade is more powerfull than Glamdring and without gandalf's staff .... The Lord of Morgul will probably win
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
You fools....you have to remember that the Witch-King of Carn-Dum is The King of the Nine Riders, HE is the ONE who has bringed Arnor, Osgiliath and Minas Ithil to complete destruction...He is also a socerer and a warrior of old which has the most powerful ring of power from those given to men ....His power is deadly...In the book Tolkien says that when Grond smashed the gate of Minas Tirith, it was not yet destroyed...The witch king's magic is the one who has breaked it
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@WiseSoul22
Fool is often the one who accuses others of being fools.
First of all Gandalf is a lesser god, an ethereal being who cannot be destroyed, wielding an even more powerful ring than the wretched witch king. The ring of fire from Cirdan himself. Uncorrupted by the will of Sauron.
Gandalf was in his grey form able to destroy a balrog of morgoth, one of the most powerful beings in middle earth, superior in strength to the WK. As the white, he was even more powerful !
The4Experience 1 year ago
@The4Experience I am not saying that the witch king is more powerfull than gandalf...But he would have been a tough opponent...Tougher that the Balrog of Morgoth..In fact this is the reason why Gandalf feared Him...He is not only a blade warrior he is also a "Witch"....Please do not forget this
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
@WiseSoul22
Yes I agree that he is a worthy opponent, but Gandalf did not fear him in the books. On the contrary, in the gate scene of the third book, he defies the witchking, and hinders him to enter Minas Tirith. Fear looks different to me.
Plus, I don't think that the witchking is tougher than the Balrog. A Balrog is a corrupted Maia, that has deadly magic spells and sorcery in its arsenal and fought in ancient times for Morgoth when the Witchking didn't even exist.
The4Experience 1 year ago
@The4Experience Please read more carefully the return of the king book and you shall see that Mithrandir feared The Witch king
WiseSoul22 1 year ago
Yeah this version is much better! You should make another version that makes Gandalf use his staff to knock the witch king off the nazgul and cause the minas tirith ruins to fall on him! That would be awesome!
lovin18 1 year ago
I think peter's version sucks but i think i was said in the book that the withking tried to enter minas tirith but he couldn't because he cant beat gandalf! But it was never said that gandalf had beathen the witchking either so i would say standoff. also the fight on the weathertop. gandalf arived there and saw the nine but he could match with them so he fled and 4 followed him so he succeded in that way.
Rorschach2222 1 year ago
Hmmm.... Gandalf vs. Witch-King?
not Here, because of Faramir, and Eowyn...
but- it DID happen- in BOOK I! On Weathertop, Gandalf the GREY fought all Nine...and lived. one power boost later, and even super-Witch-King wouldn't stand a chance. but WK wouldn't die either. prophecy.
what would happen is something similar to what happened to Sauron at Mt. Doom.
DarthRaukrist 1 year ago
The Witch-king of Angmar:
1.Prince of Numenor.
2.Lord of The Nazguls, The Greatest of The Nine.
3.4800 years old ( Aragorn is 78 years old btw)
4.Served as Lord Sauron's right hand for over 4200 years.
5.Sauron's deadliest Servant, leads The Army of Mordor.
6.Cannot be harmed by ordinary weapons-any ordinary weapon that touches him instantly disintegrates into dust.
7.Cannot be slain by a man, for he himself was once a great King of men.
Gandalf will fail before The Witch-king of Angmar.
absrax 1 year ago
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@absrax Gandalf
-Wisest of the Maiar
-Head of the White Council
-Leader of all free people of Middle Earth
-Manwe's Greatest servant besides Eonwe.
-6,000 years old
-wields the sword Glamdring and the fire ring called Narya
-7."Cannot be slain by a man, for he himself was once a great King of men."Um no he cant be killed cuz he is a ghost but with higher abilities making it hard for men to kll him
I think its pretty obvious that Gandalf would win
MultiKillerBot 1 year ago
The Witch-king would never be stronger than Gandalf, who is a Maiar, the Witch-king is of man descent, no matter how powerful Sauron is he can't make a man that can hurt a Maiar, let alone break their staff!
If the Witch-king and Gandalf had a real fight, Gandalf would pwn his ass!!!!
WarFire10 1 year ago
omg german version.Epic fail............
MrEllinaras 1 year ago
Peter Jackson is a pretentious fucker, he had to ruin the best scene. Well done todorius!
WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
@WindDaughterSnow
I completely agree !
I would have really liked a standoff like in the book. I always wonder why Peter Jackson had to ruin this scene. A standoff would have been way cooler.
todorius 1 year ago
@todorius Maybe there wasn't enough descriptions for him to understand the book :D
Mcfcae 9 months ago
@WindDaughterSnow For what it's worth Jackson didnt like this scene ether and thats why he left it out of the featricle version.
TeamTowers1 5 months ago
They didn't not fight in the book because they both knew they would destroy each other. They stood there for a while before the horn sounded.There are biased people who think that one was more powerful, but remember that Gandalf was sent to counter the will of Sauron, and even though the Witch King was given more dark energy, Gandalf was sent back prepared for that. They both knew that engaging one another was a bad idea, clearly. Also, the prophecy is a moot point.
WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
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WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
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They both knew that engaging one another was a bad idea, so they didn't. They stood there for a while before the horn sounded. Gandalf came back to Middle Earth prepared for the The more powerful Witch King. They would have destroyed each other. A mortal man with an immortal existence versus an immortal Maia. The prophecy is a moot point.
WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
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WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
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WindDaughterSnow 1 year ago
I was just re-reading the history of Feanor. How a lowly Noldor elf created the Silmarils that no Valar could duplicate. Maia vs Maia does not always mean a tie battle. Each has a piece of Illuvatar's song, and how they've improved it through their research, lore, crafting, experience makes a difference. I know his armor, annoiting oil, sword and mace are all higher power/craft items. For eg. his morning star is reforged from Grond, Mace of power wielded by Melkor/Morgoth in the First Age
smokiemirrors 1 year ago
People make a deal out of this scene because it assumes certain facts that are not stated for certain within the books. It assumes that the Witch King has the strength to overcome Gandalf, when actually within the books, he himself is a Maia, and even says that "I am the most powerful being you shall meet...lest we go to the halls of the Dark Lord himself" or something to that meaning. However, he may not have taken the empowerment of the WK into consideration, so it's hardtogiveadefiniteanswer.
Hypedupturtle 1 year ago
in middle earth, Gandalf was not as powerful as sauron, the witch king or the balrog. he was a man not a maia. the gods sent him to middle earth in order to aid men and provide the hardiness and fire to help light a fire under men's ass's. if the gods sent gandalf to middle earth with all the power he had in valinor, then there would be no point in him trying to unite men against sauron. He himself would be able to lead the war. the gods decided that this was man's battle. gandalf is a man.
barahir78 1 year ago
i like how they tried to make it seem like gandalf beat thre witch king here. gandalf got his ass kicked by the KING in the books and in the real clip.
barahir78 1 year ago
@barahir78 ur a dumb fuck if u actually read the book, those two just had a standoff. plus if they were to fight, and if u knew about the history of the Eru and lluvatar, then ud know gandalf would've shitted all over witch king. dumb fuck go read before u make up your own story.
dh144498 1 year ago
yes, gandalf is more powerful then the witch king, who is not a maia only a corrupted man, and also, the power given to the witch king was all the sauron could give the nine, and his servents. i do not believe that the power of the evil side can rise beyond a certain point, as it is said in the silmarillion that the more power morgoth spent, the weaker he became saurons extra power came from mount doom, where he made the ring so no the witch king is only so powerful, while gandalf grows in power
78ghrile 1 year ago
fail
ozonetf141 1 year ago
I have not yet read the books, but I would love too. I think it's what I am going to do this summer. And the movies are terrific, the movies they always capture my attention, always.
FluXez00 1 year ago
One could counter by saying Melkor/Morgoth was the mightiest valar ( just like The Silmarillion says) but still he gets owned by Ungoliant and Tulkas BEFORE he loses much of his power by passing it into his creations.....and even gets laid low by a half breed maiar/Sindarin elf ( Luthien song)
Let us not forget the ringwraiths wore rings of their own coupled with Saurons will. The Book is the be all end all of Canon but Olorin getting thwomped by the Chief Wraith isnt above possibility.
charrokomen 1 year ago
@charrokomen
If you want to refer to Morgoth and Ungolianth, note that Ungolianth was driven away by Balrogs - the same Balrogs of which Gandalf defeated one. Tolkien notes that the primary weapon of the Nazgul was fear. They were never combat monsters. Much like Sauron himself, they put their emphasis in organisation, destabilisation and wreaking chaos. Even if Sauron infused the witch king with additional power for the battle, he's still far away from a Balrog.
ohauss 1 year ago
i hate when they dub movies it sounds BAD i love that my country leave original and sub it its way better!
selearemus 1 year ago
I want to hear the Witch king in Jamaican man...
BuddhaZenMind 1 year ago
The only reason saruman lost his powers when his staff broke was because gandalf, the new leader of the istari was expelling saruman from the order of the istari. The WK breaking gandalfs staff wouldn't have taken his powers away. Plus, gandalf still had his ring to draw from. Even in his humanoid istari form, gandalf had his own powers plus the rings power (which was equal if not greater than WK's) to draw from.
LordRakton 1 year ago
This is how it should be!
Andracor 1 year ago
Just a thought here...I know Gandalf's staff does not break in the book, but does his staff breaking necessarily imply that the Witch King is more powerful than Gandalf? Or just that the Witch King is able to break a piece of wood? I don't know everything there is to know about the Istari, but I would imagine their power comes from within, not from the staff they are holding.
YouDontKnowBill 1 year ago
@YouDontKnowBill well, I think Peter Jackson break the story, with that scene, mabe because Gandalf start to unbelieving in men, and he start to think he will not survive this. the witch king sens it, and he felt stronger than gandalf.. but that's just what I think.
oly355 1 year ago
The witch king sound great in german..
eastshy9 1 year ago 2
Woa, nice discussion here.
However, I completely agree with wizardistari. Isn't it said in the Silmarillion that Gandalf was the second most powerful being in middle earth during the war of the ring after Sauron alone? He did not write this without purpose.
And how could Sauron enhance a corrupted man to such an extent that he would be more powerful than a Maia? Impossible I would say.
todorius 1 year ago 9
@todorius to... fuck the story up?
oly355 1 year ago
@todorius nerd
yorik58 1 year ago
@todorius because gandalf was not a maia in middle earth. he was a man. and the gods only gave him so much power. along with the other 4 wizards. Saruman being the most powerful, then gandalf.
barahir78 1 year ago
@todorius I don't know if it ever said Gandalf was the most powerful. It did say he was the wisest of the Maiar, while Saruman was powerful and great in craft.
nateyj11 1 year ago
@nateyj11
There is a line in the books that goes like this: 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Also I think in the Silmarillion it is said that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle earth at the time of the ring war.
todorius 1 year ago
@nateyj11 That tells me being crafty is better than being wise. :)
viper8red 10 months ago
@todorius Idiot.
In the Silmarillion, Sauron is the strongest Maia in existance, rivaling the lesser of the valar.
However, after he crafts the ring, Tolkien specifically mentions that Sauron had surpassed his master Melkor in power.
Melkor was the strongest being in existance before hand. Even rivaling Eru to an extent.
Eru empowered Gandalf to fight Sauron, so Sauron feared Gandalf. However, the Witch King had over 1,000 years to perfect himself. He was an immortal wraith with limitless>
jajomurphy 1 year ago
@todorius strength, so he spent it perfecting magic. Now in the begining of the fifth book, Tolkien has Gandalf and the Witch King stand off. During this time, Gandalf does not overpower the Witch King, and the Witch King doesn't overpower him. Which puts them at the least equal. However, the fact that Tolkien's sequel was to be based around the return of the Witch King, without limitations to his power (Being bound to Sauron limited him greatly), shows it even stronger.
jajomurphy 1 year ago
@todorius However, the idea was scrapped, because Tolkien realized that if the Witch King returned before the Dagor Dagorlach, there would be an eternal reign of Darkness, no man could best him, and without limitations, he could simply will the gates of Gondor to fall. Aragorn had passed, his son was well aged, and the Elves and Maia were gone. There was no one to fight him.
The end.
jajomurphy 1 year ago
@todorius No, the Silmarillion does not state that Gandalf was the second most powerful being. Gandalf says (in Lord of the Rings) that he has no power to withstand the Morgul Lord when he leads the Nine, partly because of the fate that was decreed for the Witch King. He was a mighty Sorcerer (the Witch King) in his time, possibly a king of Men. Gandalf was indeed Maiar (as were the Balrogs in their beginning, but their power was squandered)... but even Elves slew Balrogs in ages past
PonyboyInNewZealand 10 months ago
lol get that staff out my face
dragonlordofchoas 1 year ago
Please explain how Saruman owns Gandalf in the first movie if Gandalf is superior to the Witch King?
TheHomieRyu 1 year ago
@TheHomieRyu
Well first of all, that fight your referring to, never happened in the books. Peter just added that to the film, I guess you can say to have a mini wizard battle. Which was kind of cool by the way. But anyways, Saruman is Curunir, a Ainur of the order of the Maiars. He was very powerful! But in the 3rd age, he was sent to Middle-Earth as an Istari/Wizard.There were ranks, the White, Grey, Brown,and Blue. White being the leader, and most powerful. Saruman at that time own Gandalf.
wizardistari 1 year ago
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@TheHomieRyu, Gandalf is not superior to the Witch King, It was the Horn of the charging Rohirrim (heard in the background) that makes the Witch king fly off.
dave99944 1 year ago
Haha thank you my friend Todorius! You rock! I love what you did here. I was so mad when Peter did this. For Gandalf would have killed the WK with ease! For he is Olorin a Ainur of the order of Maiars, servant of Eru the one, servant of Manwe Lord of the Valar, he is the wisest of all the Maiar. His powers were way greater than a corrupted man. Sure the WK was a powerful sorcerer, but his powers would never match of a Maiars. To say that, it's just insulting! Gandalf wins case close! Good day!
wizardistari 1 year ago 14
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Apparantly Saurons gives some of his powers to the WK so he could defiantely match him.
Spartiatai300 1 year ago
@Spartiatai300
Wow! Like if that makes a big difference haha!! Just because Sauron gave some of his powers to the WK, that still does not mean that he would be equal in power with Gandalf. You people just don't understand! You people are a disgrace and insult to the true Tolkien fans. Just stop already! Read the books! Such as LOTR, Silmarillion, Lost Tales, etc and you will finally understand! Good day to you!
wizardistari 1 year ago 4
I'm sure he'll twist in his grave.....
Spartiatai300 1 year ago
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@wizardistari, " In Tolkien's letters, the author noted that Sauron was of course a 'divine' person (in the terms of this mythology; a lesser member of the race of Valar). Though less mighty than the chief Valar, he was more powerful than many of his fellow Maiar; Tolkien noted that he was of a "far higher order" than the Maiar who later came to Middle-earth as the Wizards Gandalf and Saruman. So couldn't it be possible for sauron to empower a man to equal or even surpass Gandalf?
dave99944 1 year ago
@dave99944
Good point there. But you also have to understand that Sauron transfered mostly all or half of his power to the "one ring." So when he gave some of his power to the WK, that still does not make a difference for WK to be equal or even surpass Gandalf. The only way I would agree that WK might have been equal with Gandalf, is if Sauron had the "one ring". But in this case no! So Gandalf still would have killed WK. Good day! Nice try!
wizardistari 1 year ago 6
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@wizardistari, {PART 1 OF 2}
Quotes: In Tolkiens writings he said "The Necromancer of The Hobbit is a mere shadow of the Dark Lord of Mordor
who casts his shadow over the whole of Middle Earth" (note the use of the word "casts" vs."casted" to refer to the third age), (The shadow of Mordor in T.R.O.T.K). In the Hobbit page 35, Gandalf said "Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped" (from the Necromancer) Also as I'm sure you know the WK's ring game him immense power, though less then Gandalf.
dave99944 1 year ago
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@wisardistari, {PART 2 OF 2} -So it is clear that if Saurons "mere shadow"(Necromancer), was more powerful then Gandalf,
then the later version (Dark Lord of Mordor) would have been very incredibly more powerful then Gandalf, even
without the one ring. Theoretically he could have enabled the already powerful WK to be more powerful then Gandalf.
It is possible. Checkmate.
dave99944 1 year ago
@dave99944 Yes I know that! But you have to understand that was when he was Gandalf the Grey! He was powerful than, but when he became Gandalf the White, he was even more poweful! When he was the White Wizard, the Valar gave Gandalf some of his Maiar powers back. And allowed him to use more of his power this time. That is why he surpassed Saruman.Gandalf was just a mere shade of matching Sauron's power. And he had the ring Narya. Sauron was nothing without the "one ring." Gandalf wins WK dies!
wizardistari 1 year ago 15
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Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this specific time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was nearly an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
dave99944 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this specific time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was nearly an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
dave99944 1 year ago
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@wizardistari Nothing says with any surety the exact difference in power Sauron had over Gandalf at this time in the book. It's open to personal Interpretation. Your view or mine cannot be defined as incorrect. I and LOTR screenwriters envisioned Sauron as significantly more powerful then Gandalf. It makes the story more epic vs. If Gandalf was near an equal to Sauron then the story would have been too "safe" with no real danger. With this view, this amendment to the story wasn't "incorrect".
dave99944 1 year ago
@wizardistari But remember in the book saruman is not really white after he is corrupted by sauron. He becomes 'Saruman of many Colours' so the Valar takes most of his powers away and because there must always be a white wizard they make gandalf white to put things right in middle-earth. Remember gandalf says at the Grey Havens, 'my task is done'.
rosiechristiane 1 year ago
@wizardistari Yeah he just killed thousands of men, corrupted a white wizard, summoned all evil beings in middlearth to his control and would have wone the war of the Ring had it not been for a small unimportant hobbit
rosiechristiane 1 year ago
@wizardistari true true.. only one tiny problem.. if we do it that way their is no movie...
MrVeggie247 5 months ago
@wizardistari Not really... Gandalf was afraid to meet the Witch King in the book, and states that he did not know who was more powerful. The Istari to sent to Middle Earth to encourage men to defeat Sauron themselves, not to intervene directly. And don't forget, Sauron was a Maia too, and if I'm not mistaken was from a higher position then Gandalf and Saruman. He was certainly not 'nothing' without the ring.
Eird 1 year ago
I have read the books several times since I was young and I am now 36 so thats alot....Indeed Gandalfs staff was NOT broken in the books BUT Gandalf was not a match for the Witchking especially at that time when Sauron was pouring his will into his chief lieutenant....The prophecy still stood from the second age That he would not meet his end by the hand of man in this case gender. He didnt kill Gandalf because of the arrival of Rohan.. He had to see to the new threat from the north.
charrokomen 2 years ago
Yes, Glorfindel made the prophecy that the witchking would not meet his end by the hand of a man. But, first of all, Gandalf is not a man. He is a Maia, a godlike being. Second, in the Silmarillion, it is stated that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle-earth during the war of the ring. And third: Gandalf was about to chase the witchking after the stand-off, when Pippin convinced him to save Faramir instead. Gandalf is not foolish enough to chase someone who is superior.
todorius 2 years ago
@todorius not all true sauraman was the most powerful it even states that saruman was the chief. but you are right that gandalf did become more powerful after he became the white wizard. and in the book we never see gandalf and the witch king fight so who knows how that would have turned out. in the book it does not seem like the witch king was afraid of gandalf. and maybe thats why this scene did not make it into the film in movies. i dont see why people make a deal out of this scene.
vreeland17 1 year ago
That's true. But sauron could have given the witch king most of his power until gondor was destroyed, since that was his only hope anyway.
rosiechristiane 1 year ago
@todorius wowow, completly agree with the part of Gandalf being more powerfull than witchking, but not the second in power after sauron. Saruman was more powerfull at the begining, lets remember, in the hobbit Gandalf was afraid of Beorn's wrath for example and recognized him as someone more powerfull than himself. There are several considerations of power in tolkiens universe, of course gandalf was the waisest by far and thats a kind of power, perhaps you understood that, could it be?
CondeDrareg 11 months ago
@charrokomen I agree with you but Glorfindel 's prophecy was not only taling about gender .The Witch King was actually defeated by the combined force of Éowyn & Merry because if were not for Merry who (unlike the film) stabed the Witch King with an Arnorian blade enchanted with spells against the Witch King . If Éowyn just stabed the Witch King she wpould just made him madder or if Merry was stabbing him with a Rohirrim sword (like the film ) nothing would happen .My point is tecnically one c
scAlpha7 1 year ago
@scAlpha7 Um... Merry was carrying the sword of westernesse/barrow-blade with him in the battle >.>
azn3000 1 year ago
@azn3000 If you mean in the film no.In the film he carried a rohirrim sword (as far as i remember)
scAlpha7 11 months ago
@scAlpha7 Well I remember him using the same sword throughout the films.
azn3000 11 months ago
@azn3000 It's being a long time but i just finished seeinf the Return of the King And at 1: 10: 58 and to the rest of the sene where Éowyn tells Merry to go to the smithy because he has a blund blade one can clearly see that is a Rohirrim sword and not the ones that (in the book where given to them from Tom Bombadil) were given to them in the first movie by Aragorn on the ruins of Amon Sûl ( Weathertop ) which were clearly Arnorian blades
scAlpha7 10 months ago
an kill the Witch king if he has a Specialy enchanted Arnorian blade.Otherwise he/she better run for his/her life
R.I.P Witch King
P.S. i might support gondor but the Witch King of Angmar is my fav Villian of all time!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
scAlpha7 1 year ago
Much better :)
Uriawill 2 years ago 2
Jackson probably made the scene because he showed Witch King as the main evil character (sure Sauron, but he had no physical form and was mostly showed with Frodo). Jackson needed to show that Witch King is powerful and scary. Without the scene with Gandalf Witch King would have looked like some crappy helper instead of the arch enemy who doesn't do anything and then suddenly gets beaten by Merry and Eowyn. All in all, Witch King needed to look more powerful, too bad it had to be Gandalf's lost.
MrVVhich 2 years ago 2
I think you are right.
Yes, too bad it had to be Gandalf. He could have for example built in the scene where the Witchking shatters the gates of Minas Tirith with his sorcery. That would have also made him look very powerful. And then the stand-off with Gandalf. That would have been superb.
todorius 2 years ago
True...
1981regie 2 years ago
Comment removed
Jarlaxle1611 2 years ago
Thanks a lot.
Yeah, Peter Jackson spoiled some characters in Return of the King for cineastic reasons. Among them are besides Gandalf also Aragorn and Gimli as you said.
todorius 2 years ago
Comment removed
Jarlaxle1611 2 years ago
This never happened in the books.
Gandalf is a Maia, and could destroy the Witch King, as Gandalf is most definitely not a man.
Vernul 2 years ago 4
Gandalf is a Maia but in human form .
He don't have the power to destroy the Wichking .
tnlpl 2 years ago
I thought it was pretty good though. Kind of made the movie more fun. =)
Sunriel 2 years ago
I like to think that the Witch King woulda stood a chance, he did have Sauron's power behind him, and he was a sorceror. It would make their confrontation in the book seem shallow and pointless if Gandalf is the inevitable victor.
Dogar230 2 years ago
i didnt read the book but i heard from those who did read it that according to book the witch king did broke gandalfs staff and he could kill him but for some reason he didnt.
garioldwin 2 years ago
those who told you that Gandalf's staff got broken in the book were a bunch of liars. That DID not happen in the book. Read it for yourself if you have the time.
1981regie 2 years ago 3
Yeah, but Gandalf has his own power (risen from his order as Gandalf the White) and the blessing of the Valar to back him up. Moreover, if the Witch King is a sorcerer, Gandalf is a Wizard, with powers from the blessed realm...
1981regie 2 years ago
wtf?
crackshack2 2 years ago
too many holes in the story. gandalf beat a balrog and mastered saruman, but then fights orcs with his sword. why can't he blow down 10 orcs at a time with fireballs etc...? one minute gandalf is this bad ass maiar and next he's fighting with skills of an above avg. soldier.
Hykrz 2 years ago
That's exactly how I felt. The picture of Gandalf is very inconsistent in the movies: He fights off a Balrog as the grey, then when he returns as the white he is depicted invincible:
Surrounded by a radiant white light, immune to regular weapons such as bow, sword or axe.
Also immune to magic spells like Sarumans Fireball. But then in RoTK: He fights with the sword, no spells and to top it all he loses against the witchking. Absolutely inconsistent. And so very stupid by Peter Jackson.
todorius 2 years ago
Hahahaha eiskalt mal ebend so die Geschichte geändert.
TimurMontana 2 years ago
"And Galdalf was definitely not prepared in that scene."
If you were referring to the movie, that is correct-which is quite different from the book...
As a matter of fact, he was about to follow the Witch King when he turned his back and faced the charge of the Rohirrim, only to be stopped because of Faramir's life is in danger. He was definitely prepared.
1981regie 2 years ago 3
Todorius, concerning your claim that Gandalf never said that he wasn't sure he would win. He did. In the 4th chapter, Denethor talks with him: "Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?" (...) "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come."
Nethan2000 2 years ago
Gandalf is not proud, and hasty in concluding that he is more powerful than any being save Sauron. That is the Witchking's folly. A lesser being felled him.
1981regie 2 years ago
The two towers, Book 3, Chapter 5 Pp 108.
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord..."
1981regie 2 years ago 6
How do you measure danger and what does it have to do with the point of this discussion? Human is the most dangerous creature in the Earth, much greater menace than, let's say, a lion. Yet it is very easy for a lion to kill an unprepared human. And Galdalf was definitely not prepared in that scene.
Nethan2000 2 years ago
The fact of the matter is that, Gandalf recognizes his power, but he does not brandish it. He defends as opposed to Sauron and his minions who attacks.
1981regie 2 years ago 3
And like what he said, he was in deep thought when saying "It might be so". Bacause he was not foolish, rather in retrospect he sees the possibility of him being defeated, though highly unlikely so.
1981regie 2 years ago 3
And was he prepared when he fought the balrog? Also quite a surprise I would say, finding a Balrog of Morgoth, nevertheless he stood his ground against a much more powerful foe than the witchking, even as he was Gandalf the Grey. As the white, he should be even more powerful I think.
todorius 2 years ago
@todorius gandalf said he himself "creatures as old as the begining of times" but when talkin about the ents he says "the ents are as old as the creation of time.." explain this plz.
f4llenSk4ter 2 years ago
@1981regie i read the book but i forgot wich part was this?
f4llenSk4ter 2 years ago
there is a wide degree of difference in the age of origin...
upon the beginning of time it is possible that it was before and during the creation of Ea (the music of the Ainur), and the creation of time might possibly be after the completion of Ea...Because the Ents were created as protectors of the trees
1981regie 2 years ago
Furthermore, the ents are created as shepherds who will protect the trees specifically from the dwarves at the behest of Yavanna to Mandos, hence their existence...
1981regie 2 years ago
as for the part of the book, I'll need to do a further research on that...
1981regie 2 years ago
@1981regie ok.thanks.how do you know soo much bout LOTR?
f4llenSk4ter 2 years ago
It's because I love its lore. It has its own old history, language, people, and world. And Tolkien made a very good effort indeed in the creation of LOTR, and its predecessor the Silmarillion.
1981regie 2 years ago
Imho, the movie was completely wrong on this scene. Consider this: Gandalf was in fact a Maiar, who had the ring of fire, a godlike being, against a servant of Sauron, a corrrupted spirit of men with one of the 9 rings, lesser in power than the ring of fire. Sauron would not have been able to give so much power to the WK, so that he would beat the chief of wizards. Only Sauron himself in physical form could challenge Gandalf at that time, for Gandalf was strongest after only Sauron.
todorius 2 years ago
Yeah I gotta admit even though I LOVE these movies and love alot of Jackson's work, they made the right choice in cutting scenes like this out. The Rankin/Bass movies weren't perfect ( liked it but voices like the WitchKing's voice were terrible) but even they got the right idea of not having them actually get the chance to fight. Some of those extended scenes were interesting and had more of the book in them, but some like this were unneeded although he said "I will break him" in the cut.
balrog13571 2 years ago
indeed, made me stop watching.
amyinarms 2 years ago
actually sauron gave some of his power in with the witch kings ring so it gave him power to do that
jiowars 2 years ago
Still, the WK could not have been enhanced to a level where he would be able to beat a Maia. Manwe himself chose Gandalf to do the job, and not without reason. Being Gandalf the White, his power was greatly increased in comparison to Gandalf the grey, and even then he was able to destroy the Balrog of Morgoth! Losing againgst the WK as Gandalf the White? Ha ! Ha ! It's like the Balrog losing against Boromir, lol !
todorius 2 years ago
Yet the Elf Círdan who met him on arrival nevertheless considered him "the greatest spirit and the wisest" and gave him the elven Ring of power called Narya, the Ring of Fire containing a "red" stone, for his aid and comfort.
1981regie 2 years ago 3
The original scene of this is actually incredibly badass regardless of it not occuring in the book.
BabmerChan 2 years ago
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DAS IST MEIN STUNDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gondaldin 2 years ago
I don't know any line in the book where Gandalf would state that he is not sure if he could defeat the Witchking. That's a pure invention of the movie. And also, in the Silmiarillion, it is said that Gandalf is the second most powerful being in middle earth during the time of the ring war.
todorius 2 years ago
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"Morinehtar" ~ I think his name is Alatar, not sure at all. Checked Wikipedia, and even the awe-powerful wiki cannot figure it out! Well, it's one of the blue wizard's that are darkness slayers. It's all very misleading, not sure why people debate it.
OrganicPsychosis 2 years ago
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Also, todorius, you aren't truly 'angry' at Peter Jackson for 'ruining' the trilogy, are you?
Just asking, because it's a movie, and in my opinion, he did a damn good job. Especially with the lore, considering all the other dry shit crumbs that deliberately consist of book to movie in cinema history.
OrganicPsychosis 2 years ago
You are right, I am not really mad at Peter Jackson, because I think that the first two movies were absolutely awesome. But I didn't really like the third one, the interpretation of the characters there is all wrong, and he could have made much more out of it. Still, I am a big fan of the movies overall. This scene just depicts my vision of how the encounter between Gandalf and WK should have been.
todorius 2 years ago
I like the depiction of Rivendell and Lothlorien the best...
I'm also very much appreciative of Galadriel's presence plus the way PJ showed Gandalf after he was "sent back at the turn of the tide" as seen in the Fangorn Forest-problem is, PJ had to ruin it on the 3rd installment-stupid move...
1981regie 2 years ago 3
and thats why peter jackson put this in the extended edition because he knew the depiction of the encounter would rile up tolkien fans
azn3000 2 years ago 2
Who would be the 1st msot powerul being??
I read that if Gandalf or Galadriel had the ring of power, they would be much more powerful than Sauron ever was.
PrunyOldToe 2 years ago
Sauron, of course. What you say is true, but it only means that with the Ring, they would have usurped a large part of Sauron's power.
forgalzz7 2 years ago
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Tolkien didn't really think in D&D stats. In any case, it is misleading to consider the ringwraiths completely independent beings. They are in some sense only extensions of Sauron, and their power depends a lot on how much focus he puts into their current mission.. In this moment, the Witchking was practically a full projection of Sauron's power, so I think it's entirely possible that Gandalf wouldn't have been able to push him back. The movie was not completely on the wrong track there.
forgalzz7 2 years ago
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Only if Sauron himself fought through The Witch King, only then would it be fair duel. But then saying that, Gandalf was not a Maia in the true form in the Middle Earth he was still only a wizard and therefore we do not know if his true powers could full manifest while he was a wizard in the Middle Earth. Gandalf did suggest in the book and the movie that he was not entirely sure whether or not he is capable of defeating Witch King.
nickiboy777 2 years ago
didn't gandalf scrap with 4 of the nazgul on weathertop? They would have killed him if they could, and he was grey. I a little barbarian girl, and a midget van kill him, I mean come on. The only magic they have is fear, gandalf was not afraid in the book. But when he was surprised by Merry and Eowyn, fear crept into him and he was defeated with it.
brimhall7 2 years ago 2
Gandalf was like a freaking archangel. The Witch King didn't even try to fight him in the book... crappy scene it was in the movie.
variag62 2 years ago 4
I suspect Sauron went he same way as Morgoth - spending his spirit on "petty evils" like the creatiomn of the One Ring and the Nazgul, and while he was indeed a most powerful Maia of Aule in his beginning, he would have been much diminished and ruined by the time of the War of the Ring. One the subject of the witchking, yes he was a ruined spirit that according to the "prophesy" no mortal man could kill - or rather, no mortal man was DESTINED to kill him. Big difference.
VainEldritch 2 years ago
Yes i agree the whole thing about the Witch King walking all over Gandalf like he was just some human is BULLSHIT.
Gandalf is a BLOODY MAIAR not some human.
At top most the Witch King might be able to fight Gandalf to a draw after a VERY long battle.
But i would say that it´s far more likely that Gandalf would have kicked the Witch King so hard that Eowyn didn´t have to bother to fight him.
Its even hinted in the book that had Pippin not called for Gandalf, the Witch King would be beaten.
Erikjust 2 years ago 5