The Beast of Revelation: IDENTIFIED (6 of 25) by Ken Gentry

[OFADK]

If rev.1:7 is about the destruction of the temple 70 A.D.With all respect,how can it then explain"and every eye will see him";my impression: it´s based too much theology, and not God´s spirit of wisdom and revelation.Jesus told people who had much "knowledge":" Do ye not therefore err(go astray),because ye know not the scriptures,neither the power of God?"Mark 12:24. Core argument: the word "shortly" used in 1:3,does not seem solid.Thousand of years goes by in just one sentence in the bible.

[otnt66]

The warnings that Christ gave to Jerusalem were not to end with them. The judgments upon Jerusalem were a symbol of the events of Christ's coming to judgment in the last day, when before Him shall be gathered all nations. "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

[markymarkuss777]

Around 3:00 into the video he says that he spoke to them about Matthew 24. I'd love to see those videos if you have them too.

[jcr4runner]

@markymarkuss777 I'd love to too. But this wasn't recorded. It exists only on CD. Get it from Ligonier Ministries.

[e1313ruth]

This man does not know who the beast is nor did he define the 7 kings..correctly.. The woman of Rev 17 sits on the seven headed beast..These are high places where baal is worshiped... these seven heads are defined as being satan's angels in rev 12 -9,,,The dragon and these angels are defined as being THE OLD SERPENT of genesis 3..in

Rev 12-9....

[ferdnerkel]

Who said the following??:

"...No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. ..."

But let us ignore this and blame it on the "Jews" after all we can support our belief with these freshly picked scriptures from the book of acts. This guy is getting harder and harder to listen to, much less believe!

[FaithfulAndTrue100]

@ferdnerkel

Even though the crucification took place by the free choices of Judas, the soldiers, the Jewish tribunal, the Roman tribunal, etc, it has all been decreed by God. Luke 22:22.

Peter says this too in Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"

Acts 2:23 states clearly that even though it happened through lawless hands, wicked men, it has been planned by God all along.

[ritalate]

@ferdnerkel Luke 17:1 KJV "Offenses will come, but woe to him through whom they come."

[ferdnerkel]

Mat 27;25 --- Mat 23;35. somebody is cherry picking scripture. Why would they do that?

[visitor8473]

If Revelation is complete, when did Wormwood fall? When was the earth burned and a forth of it's inhabitants killed? When were all the oceans turned to blood and the marine life destroyed?

[MovinbackStBernard]

Be wary of those who speak half truths for they deceive many. Your heart tells you what is truth. Denigh not truth. There are those who claim they know me yet I know them not. Walk in truth and the truth shall be revealed. SEEK! Truth in Light

[Christinjapan]

At 3:05, take a close look at the symbol on the lower right of the bible. It is called the cross in the crown. It is a York Rite Freemasons sign. This should tell you all you need to know about this teacher.

[parousia555]

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Gee, I wonder, isn't a lamb a beast, could this verse be a reference to Jesus's resurrection from the dead?

Could the Image of the beast the same thing as the church, which was brought to life at pentecost?

Did the angel that talked to John in Rev say that he was going to show him things that were and will be?

Does anybody know how to read?

[jaker2880]

But the beast once was,now is not,yet will soon come...

John wrote that and we can see that the beast was in the abyss when John wrote revelation(now is not).

At the same time,the sixth King was on the scene.

[jcr4runner]

In Revelation 17, the identity of the Beast is revealed.

John explains the transition between the first judgments which were the persecution of the church and the later judgments resulting in the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

"The Beast" here is Nero, but John is also speaking of the entire Roman Empire. The sentence is written the future tense (rather plainly and woodenly) of people who will see the Beast "Rome" rise from the dead.

[jcr4runner]

"And those who dwell on the Land (the unbelieving Jews in Judea) will wonder ... when they see the Beast, that he was and is not and will come."

The Beast here is a mirror image of Him who is

and who was and who is to come (Revelation 1:4).

The Roman Empire (the ten kings) passed through three stages:

The Beast "was" from Caesar to Nero;

The Beast "was not" in the critical year of the four emperors when the rule of the Emperor was overthrown;

The Beast "will come" again with Vespasian.

[REVtalk1]

I always thought that the 6th king that was on the scene was when John was taken into the future to see the seven headed beast that came up out of the abyss (future)

[jcr4runner]

Where in Revelation does it say John was taken into the distant future? Maybe you are reading something into the text.

Red the first chapter first verse:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev 1:1).

What does that mean?

[REVtalk1]

My assertion: The 1000 year reign of Christ was set up during that final beast (roman empire) will continue for 1000 yrs (whatever that means, most likely "a long time") towards the end of this predetermined amount of time, satan will be loosed from his prison to go out to decieve the nations, satan gives the beast his throne, authority, etc... for a short season etc then the end comes ie. the resurrection and eternity. NO RAPTURE, NO future "MILLENIUM" (IT'S HERE NOW

[07braves]

does this not equally point to the catholic church. i'm sorry but even the reformers seen this. look at the way they dress, the richest church body in the world,(gold,etc.) paganism with in the catholic church, mixing religions..whore, spiritual fornication what is true blasphemy according to GOD? saying you are God, the pope says that many times over in history, #2 you say you are able to forgive sin, again the catholic priest say it is only them (that church) that can do that.

[jcr4runner]

Which of he Reformers ever wrote a commentary on Revelation?

Only Calvin wrote a commentary on Daniel. He was preterist and the "little Horn" of Daniel 7 (the same as the Beast of Rev 13) was Caesar.

[HaveUconsidered]

Didn't the Geneva Bible have notes in the margin calling the Pope the beast and the whore the Catholic church etc.??

[ferdnerkel]

@HaveUconsidered i dont know about the margins of the geneva bible but i have read that martin luther believed these things

[07braves]

7 hills, purple and scarlot, symbolic egypt and sodom, gold, pearls, gold cup full of abominations, whore (woman) is a symbol of a church, the whore meaning spiritual fornication. 1260 years..538 AD - 1798 AD. (538 justinian decree) 1798 napoleons army take catholic power, (the wound) the wound is healed in 1929 by mussollini. Mystery babylon ..false gods and idols,dragons, eyes of horus, queen of heaven,(mary), the true priest of the old testament had BLUE in their outfits. the great city ROME

[jcr4runner]

Actually, all these things describe the furniture in he Temple and articles needed for worship.

The merchants mourn because they were making a lot of money on this, and now the Temple is destroyed.

[PeterCornstalk]

Rev 11:8 "and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. [Jerusalem]" Rev 17:18 "And the woman that you saw [the whore] is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth. Rev 18:16 "Alas, alas, for the great city [Jerusalem] that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! "

[Saiaton]

I wonder if John is writing under Domitian but as if it had been written under Nero? Then he can claim Vespasian's destruction of the Temple as the judgment of Jesus using the Satan Incarnate of the Roman Empire. Domitian also persecuted Christians (among others!) and liked to think of himself as a second Nero. We forget that outside the aristocracy Nero was popular because he persecuted aristocrats and Christians.

[johnchingford]

I have posted many comments giving my complete argument showing why this guy is wrong and exposing his real purpose for the videos. You will find the whole thing on his video number 19 (if my posts were all accepted).

[PeterCornstalk]

Rev 17:4 "The woman [the whore] was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls..." Therefore the Whore is Jerusalem.

[jcr4runner]

Very good exegesis. I've never made this connection before myself abut the gold and pearls.

[Sanctyfied]

I really find this guy hard to follow, he is jumping around the Bible so much it's really not making any sense.

[PeterCornstalk]

Sorry, what I meant to say is he in NOT trying to present all of Revelation, just the internal evidence of a pre 70 AD date. The title of the video is misleading as to what his presentation is really about.

[shaver215]

Pete, I am not going to pretend I know alot about historicism, but I will offer one comment anyway.

Don't you think it is arrogant of you, and other americans, who insist that b/c American is being judged by God and our nation is "going to hell" that either the end is near, the rapture is soon, the tribulation is coming, or in your words, we are in the great apostasy?

Why interpret scripture thru the lens of newspaper? you commit the same error the dispys do, you just stretch it over more time

[Joel0277]

SO REV IS NOT A LITERAL MEANING BUT A SYMOLIC 1 ....SO THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE CHRISTIANS U CURSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BY SAY SHE IS THE 1 REV SPEAKS OF DRESSED IN PURPLE AND SCARLET ...LOL THEY R ALL DECEIVED BY SATAN RNT THEY COZ IF REV IS NOT LITERAL ALL HTESE IDIOT S WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS REALLY R NOT CHRISTIANS BUT BUNCH OF PPL DECEIVED BY LUCIFER .... i think they r the great fallign away the bible talks abt huh and they thought catholics were bad....lol

[longtalltexan63]

Joel, in Revelation you must separate the symbols from the reality. Jesus in it has seven eyes, seven spirits and so on...Much of it is symbols. The Beast is the Roman Empire. The head which was wounded is Nero who stabbed himself in the head. Read Revelation 17. Nero was the sixth emperor, the next one was only six months. Just like Revelation 17 says.

[Saiaton]

Totally. Why does everything in the Bible relate to USA? Why does God care about American gays and abortions and beliefs but nobody else's in world? Why did he never punish others before? American fundamentalists do not follow any god at all, they are the ones who "used my name but never knew me" who demand God follow them.

[PeterCornstalk]

Yes and why would any of the Christians in the 1st century care about the USA 2,000 years in the future. They needed the words of Jesus warning them to get the heck out of Jerusalem because it is going down and the killers of the prophets, saints and Jesus are going down. That is why it was written that the prophecies were soon to take place 4 times in the book! What do we learn from this? Those that deny Jesus will eventually answer for it and it won't be a trip to Disneyland. :)

[PeteWaldo]

There's difficulty in 21st century English understanding of first century Greek:

Strong's:

1096 ginomai

come to pass

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, BEGIN to be, receive being

Those things did BEGIN to be.

They BEGAN to come to pass.

[jcr4runner]

Revelation 1:1

Young's Literal Translation:

"A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John."

[laureljeanvictory]

Then why did Jesus say forgive them Father they know what they do?

[Masonictoaster9]

Good job Ken. I've found some pretty shocking information hidden away in plain sight proving the partial preterists right. All I can say is, "my God, our churches are in trouble." I have a special surprise concerning the image of the Beast from the Sea. I found where it comes from!

[PeteWaldo]

Doesn't it seem odd that Christians and Jews universally hold a continuous-historic view of OT prophecy - that is fulfilled steadily as the era it is written about gradually advances - yet the "church" can't for a moment imagine that NT prophecy would be fulfilled the same way.

Some hermeneutic!

Of course Isaac Newton, Matt Henry etc. understood this traditional context, but the 15-16 century Jesuit inventions of preterism and futurism, entered the 20th century church, and replaced it.

[jcr4runner]

It depends on your vantage point.

Christians in the first century prior to 70 A.D. would be futurists looking to some of Daniel's prophecy yet to be fulfilled; historicists dealing with prophecies that were being fulfilled, and preterists dealing with those prophecies already fulfilled.

But once most of the prophecy was fulfilled, then we can say the prophecy of Daniel is preterist -- already in the past.

[PeteWaldo]

You might have missed the point. All Christians and Jews agree that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled steadily as the era it was written about advanced. This is the continuous historic view.

A sound hermeneutic approach to the New Testament would FIRST expect New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in the same way. Steadily until Christs return. Reformers, for example, understood New Testament prophecy in this context, as day-year language of prophecy, requires it.

[jcr4runner]

You also claimed that preterism as a hermeneutic was invented recently by Roman Catholics.

Preterism just means "fulfilled prophecy" -- in fact you can't find a non-preterist interpretation of the Mount Olivet Discourse among the Church Fathers.

The same is true of Daniel -- these are fulfilled prophecies.

There are not a lot of early commentaries on Revelation. But if we compare Revelation with the fulfilled prophecies of Mt 24 and Daniel 2,9-12, we see it is dealing with the same things.

[PeteWaldo]

By your definition it would seem that everybody would then be preterist, including futurists.

I agree that the Discourse and Revelation have striking parallels.

How were the "times of the Gentiles" fulfilled in Jerusalem in 70AD, since the Romans came back and whacked another 750,000 Jews less than 70 years later?

When did Gentiles not control Jerusalem?

[jcr4runner]

Yes, every student of biblical prophecy is a partial preterist.

The question is: Which parts?

Even Hal Lindsey says Matthew 24 is fulfilled in 70 A.D. the problem is that he then jumps to a dual fulfillment theory to make it dovetail with his futurist view of Revelation.

[PeteWaldo]

"partial" doesn't include those that believe all prophecy is fulfilled.

And of what significance to our discussion is what Lindsey says?

You didn't answer my questions re "times of the Gentiles".

And you still seem to misunderstand what the traditional continuous-historic view is.

Let's try this: What portions of NT bible prophecy do you consider to have not been fulfilled by the end of the first century?

[jcr4runner]

The "times of the Gentiles" is equated with the Gentile trampling underfoot of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The Olivet Discourse was given in response to the disciples question about the destruction of HEROD'S temple (Luke 21:5-7).

THIS TRAMPLING UNDERFOOT OCCURRED DURING THE JEWISH WAR, which lasted 42 months (Rev 11:2) from April 67 to August A.D. 70 and ended with the destruction of the Temple.

[PeteWaldo]

"The "times of the Gentiles" is equated with the Gentile trampling underfoot of Jerusalem."

Perhaps as a convenience of your doctrine. The Romans came back to whack almost as many Jews less than 70 years later.

"The Olivet Discourse was given in response to the disciples question about the destruction of HEROD'S temple (Luke 21:5-7)."

You believe this the end of virtually all NT prophecy, and I believe it early in the scheme of things.

Gentiles controlled Jerusalem until 1967.

[PeteWaldo]

"THIS TRAMPLING UNDERFOOT OCCURRED DURING THE JEWISH WAR, which lasted 42 months (Rev 11:2) from April 67 to August A.D. 70 and ended with the destruction of the Temple."

Did you ever apply the traditional continuous-historic view that you use for OT prophecy, to NT prophecy?

This would require stand-alone consideration, rather than trying to wring it through the filter of your pre-conceived notions or chosen doctrine as it is an ENTIRE CONTEXT.

beholdthebeast. com/traditional_framework. htm

[PeteWaldo]

Have you ever considered the day-year "language" of prophecy understood by those great men of the reformation?

Isaac Newton - 42 months, or 1260 days: and in these Prophecies days are put for years

Matthew Henry - ...if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be.

beholdthebeast. com/mathematical_precision_of_­prophecy. htm#day_year

[jcr4runner]

I don't apply a continuous historical hermeneutic because the prophecy of Daniel was to point the Jews to the coming of the Messiah -- "in the days of these kings" -- in the days of the Roman Empire.

It's not a consistent hermeneutic to apply this to the Middle Ages. It was a prophecy to the Jews, not a prophecy warning Protestants about the pope.

Daniel had a progressive fulfillment in history UNTIL the time of Jesus. Then it was fulfilled.

The book of Revelation speaks of that fulfillment.

[PeteWaldo]

Not applied to the Middle Ages. Applied THROUGHOUT the Christian era. Like OT oc era.

Isaac Newton:...all which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end:....But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."

Matt Henry: That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book...

[jcr4runner]

I agree that most of the reformers were futurists or historicists. Remember too if they thought Revelation was occurring THEN or ABOUT TO OCCUR, that would make them futurists in their own time, but historicists only from our perspective.

[PeteWaldo]

Where is your evidence that the reformers were futurists? Today's futurism was invented by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century.

First you indicate that everyone is preterist, now seem to indicate that everyone who believes some prophecy is yet to be fulfilled are futurists.

Dr. Harry Ironside:

"..until brought to the fore through...Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [Seven-Year Tribulation PTR] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years.

[jcr4runner]

Today's futurists are mainly dispensationalists.

But Martin Luther was a historical premillennialist who thought the end of the world was near.

Some see him as amil though and I would prefer that e were -- although I think that premil is the truth on Luther's position.

[jcr4runner]

Daniel sealed up the words of the prophecy until the time of the end of days. But this "end of days" refers to the last days of Jerusalem and the Temple.

When John wrote the book of Revelation he was "unsealing the prophecy."

The Kingdom of God came in the first century.

I agree that the Kingdom is ongoing in its growth in history.

I just can't justify making specific applications of the details of the text to Islam, the medieval popes or to microchips and Cobra helicopters.

[PeteWaldo]

The kingdom arrived with Jesus resurrection. It is SHRINKING as we advance through the apostasy.

It is your preterist doctrine that prevents you from seeing that Mohammed is the false prophet. Same for futurist doctrine.

No need to introduce straw men, ie cobra helicopters, as an excuse.

It will prevent you from considering any other possibility for Daniel's seal, as Matt and Isaac suggested

First year Belshazzar 552BC + 2500 = 1948

Third year Cyrus 533BC + 2500 = 1967

watch?v=zdi8PzPWrb8

[jcr4runner]

No, the kingdom is advancing as never before. More people are converted each day than ever before. We see some apostasy in western countries, but what has happened for the Gospel in the third world and former communist bloc countries in the last 20 years is astounding.

[PeteWaldo]

True for some of the third world, Africa is even beginning to send - badly needed - missionaries to the U.S.

But what about countries like indonesia?

Was 1/4 of mankind Mohammedan, a half century ago? No.

More importantly, consider an ethnographic hermeneutic of John's whole "world"?

jewishvirtuallibrary. org/jsource/arabs/christianme. html

[jcr4runner]

What about Indonesia?

"The whole earth will be full of the glory of God as the waters cover the seas."

[PeteWaldo]

Indonesia has become 86% Muslim and beginning to install sharia law, like Nigeria.

The kingdoms of this world are satan's legal property.

You seem to not be considering the ethnographic hermeneutic, and the historical plight of Christianity in John's "world".

By the way. Those African missionaries are coming to the United States to save the church.

Not unbelievers, but those in the "church" that have deluded themselves into believing, they are Christians.

[jcr4runner]

You can believe that Satan is more powerful than the Gospel, but that is contrary to Truth.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

[jcr4runner]

* In the year 100 A.D. (70 years after Jesus Christs ministry began), there was a total of one believer for every 360 unbelievers on the planet Earth (or .27% of the worlds population).

* In the year 1000, the ratio became 1 to 220 (or .45% of the population).

* In 1900, the ratio became 1 to 27 (or 3.7%).

* In 1980, the ratio became 1 to 11 (or 9.1%).

* In 1990, the ratio was 1 to 7 (or 14.3%).

[PeteWaldo]

Strong's: world oikoumene world 14, earth 1; 15 1) the inhabited earth 1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians 1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire Now consider John's "world" today: beholdthebeast. com/the_beast. htm#percent_islam 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a FALLING AWAY first,... (apostasy)

[jcr4runner]

Most postmils believe there will be an apostasy. Check out Gentry's video on this -- "The Final Apostasy?"

[PeteWaldo]

I believe we are in the apostasy and have been for decades. That's why the Africans are coming to try to save the western church. It is dead in Europe, and has been for a long time.

Your statistics rely on a self-proclamation of Christianity. Doesn't 70 or 80% of the U.S. lay claim to being Christian?

Some believe it results from having water sprinkled on one's head as an infant.

I believe apostasy is characterized by strong delusion from an absence of a love of truth. "All roads lead to heaven"

[jcr4runner]

The Great Apostasy.

Premils say it lasts 3.5 or 7 years.

Postmils say it is even more brief.

You have it at centuries?

[PeteWaldo]

I believe the apostasy began in Daniel's "time of the end" which began in 1948 or 1967.

watch?v=zdi8PzPWrb8

The "church" has changed a lot since I was a kid. The women wore head coverings back then. Imagine a church ordaining a homosexual in 1950. The Catholic church is moving to ecumenism too.

Evangelical churches are more interested in singing koom by yah to an electric guitar thread than seeking out truth.

All institutional churches are much like the pharisees in that regard.

[evcrawfish]

1947 . when the promise is made not when the state is put into place.

[PeteWaldo]

Even a consideration of nation-states finds that Europe has been in apostasy, with dead churches, for much longer, but consider the U.S..

Our founders recognized our rights came from God.

Yet with Everson in 1947, "separating" God from our nation, and McCollum in 1948, prohibiting religious instruction in schools, we see this apostasy even on the secular national level of a once Christian nation.

The only required reading materials in our nation's early schools were a bible and hymnal.

[PeteWaldo]

What 20th century styled Christian could ever imagine, that a false prohet that has led his minions for 1400 years, another 1.5 billion in the world today, with antichrist being the most important fundamental, could be THE false prophet?

A pillaging, plundering, sex enslaving, murdering imperialistic conqueror of non-Muslims, and specifically Christians and Jews, could meet that description?

One that has inspired over 12,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks, just since 9-11?

thereligionofpeace. com

[jcr4runner]

"What portions of NT bible prophecy do you consider to have not been fulfilled by the end of the first century?"

Eschatology (the "last things")

A. All nations will have an identifiable indigenous witness of Christ and the Church.

B. Ethnic Jews will be converted in a mass way.

C. All anti-Christian powers shall be destroyed not only judicially but practically.

D. Christ shall return in person to judge the living and the dead.

E. The saints will inherit the consummated Kingdom.

[PeteWaldo]

A. What nations don't?

B. The good olive tree grafted into the wild olive tree.

C. Even as the world has witnessed the direct opposite. "Oh but eventually..."

D. Indeed He will.

E. I will be humbly honored to remain my brother John's companion in the kingdom - today.

Rather than a unique view that suggests that all Christians are preterists, why not save a lot of words and simply identify with those that follow the doctrine of partial-preterism?

[jcr4runner]

I am partial preterist.

[PeteWaldo]

You are the only partial perterist I have encountered who broadens the definition to include futurists.

Generally it is viewed as someone who believes that virtually all of bible prophecy had been fulfilled by the end of the first century, except Jesus' return. As you allude to in the prior comment.

PS You've probably guessed there should have been a question mark on B.

[jcr4runner]

Yes, even Hall Lindsy is a partial preterist when dealing with Mt 24.

The good olive tree reingrafted into it's own tree. According to Romans 9-11 this is going to become the crowning glory of the church.

[HaveUconsidered]

I agree with jc4runner here, to a certain degree, every Christian must be a partial preterist

[MikeGram101]

google: hebrew/in the clouds

[logicpractioner]

Finally some answers to this book and the same standard answer of "I don't know why I believe that - it's just what the church has always taught."