History of Christianity 2: Bishops and Apologists

[yadsik]

I believe Lyon was pronounced incorrectly.

[tuberobotto]

1) That was quite a research! But as much as it's filled with so-called 'historical facts' I couldn't help thinking that it's all leading to something and after I watched the first part, I knew what it was. It's very clear that you are blending two separate entities contradictory to one another and making them look one and the same. I've seen a few similar 'works'. To be clear, Christianity isn't same as catholicism or orthodox and those two absolutely aren't, nor part of Biblical Christianity.

[tuberobotto]

2) When you said Apostolic Christianity, the video absolutely did not blend with that phrase nor are the images in agreement with Biblical doctrine. Bible tradition also has it that Peter never went to Rome to preach nor was he there WITH Paul alongside. You may have made a conjecture. I'm aware the RCC had been making that claim ages ago to justify the existence of the pope as being a descendant/disciple of Peter thus claiming apostolic authority. No historical nor Biblical basis for that.

[tuberobotto]

3) True Biblical Christianity existed independently and survived thru the ages, notwithstanding all the heresies and persecutions that carried on even after the first council called by Constantin with the aim of merging the two beliefs, one Christian and the other pagan, and forcing Christians to embrace pagan beliefs and practices and also Marian worship. After this event it was clear that we have the Roman pagan church aka RCC while on the other side we have the persecuted Christians.

[tuberobotto]

4) While it is true that 'a lie repeated many times becomes truth', truth will find vindication in time. Even as the RCC usurped the identity of Christ's followers and has seemingly sent them to oblivion, God's hands has never failed to protect His own and allowed them to flourish everywhere. That is the truth about Christ's saying "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (against His church - the Christians)". Finally, I hope that in time with God's mercy you can sort truth from fiction.

[KayBeeEee1983]

Are you deliberately mispronouncing all these names?

[carolineleiden]

Fast, but good. Does require some prior knowledge of church history.

[Ozricroxtah8]

when you say "heretics" are you referring to the fundamentalist Christians(born again ,baptists,evangelicals,etc)?

[GahdeMalprigi1488x]

wwwdotExposingChristianitydotc­om

[hisrighthandsaves]

I guess the ignorant farmer who only has a bible he can't make it back to Christ without a church. God made it so a man can make it back to God with only his bible and heart. The thief on the cross made it back without any sacraments or any protestant teachings or practices. This is all mankind's way back to Christ, abusing the work of the early apostle's and attempting to say it was there roadmap to Christ's church. Fear not little flock, many are called but a few choosen.

[narlycat]

Why does the Eastern Orthodox Churches have just as many idols in their churches as does the Roman Catholic seem to have? All I see are hot burning candles of wax and creepy paintings, do you need to have visual reminders of Biblical characters in the direction which you worship? Are you guys still living in the age of illiteracy which supposedly justifies having icons? The early church read the Bible they didn't chant and moan. And where in the Bible was the Passover ever called Eucharist?

[trueorthodoxfaith]

@narlycat Icons are not idols. Three dimensional objects, such as statues are idols. Icons in the Orthodox church are not an object of worship, but veneration. You are incorrect about the early church and the roots of worship in Christianity. Chanting, candles, and even incense were used in the Hebrew Temples. (There have been Jewish Temples found in Turkey and Iraq were icons were found on the walls). There is more. Did you really think that the early church made these things up?

[trueorthodoxfaith]

@narlycat You are confusing two things. The "Passover" is just that , Christ's "passing' over death, His glorious Resurrection. The Eucharist is the Sacrament at the Altar. The Lord's Last Supper., that central part of the Liturgy.

The Orthodox Liturgy's roots go back to Jewish worship and the adaption of Jewish worship by early christians.

[narlycat]

what do those long gray bearded men wearing black sheets have to do with the early bishops of the Christian faith?

[ACEWilly08golf]

This presentation would be a great informative lesson on the history of the church but your partiality and lack of objectivity towards the matter makes it invalid. Joel Olsteen and Pat Robertson were not alive in the 2nd century and therefore have nothing to do with early heretical sects. Just teach the lesson of church history without adding your personal (obviously pro-Catholic/orthodox) opinions to them. Your not fooling anybody...

[taliesin939939]

Marcion's concept of dualism and the god of jesus as contrary to the jewish god smacks of gnosticism to me

[davidpwithun]

@taliesin939939 It's a similar view, but not entirely the same. The similarity stems from their common use of Platonic and Stoic philosophy in coloring their Christianity. Scholars used to lump Marcionism as a Gnostic sect, but most no longer do so as Marcion did not teach the distinctive tenet of Gnosticism, namely that salvation comes from knowledge. Marcion taught that salvation comes by faith alone.

[ramoss100]

from a historical point of view there is some doubt that Paul wrote all the letters attributed to him Historically, it is thought that 7 of authentic. Also I would say that the theological exploration of the divinity of Jesus was still under discussion. it is a fascinating era and a lot less united in terms of theology as your video implies

[davidpwithun]

@ramoss100 I'm familiar with the arguments regarding the authenticity of the various letters of Paul; I find them unconvincing in all but the case of Hebrews. As for the arguments about Christ's divinity, the primary source documentation seems to indicate that the simultaneous full humanity and full divinity of Christ was the earliest understanding and that the two extremes of Ebionism (which denied the divinity) and docetism (which denied the humanity) arose near the end of the first century.

[ramoss100]

not bad but some historical errors are probably caused by religious tradition and rhetoric

[davidpwithun]

@ramoss100 What "historical errors" do you see? I'm more than willing to change my positions in the light of further evidence. A vague and insulting assertion like this is both uncalled for and unhelpful. I'd be more than happy to dialogue.

[gi2bull]

@ramoss100 I notice that it has been more than 2 months already and you have not yet pointed out the 'historical error' you claim to have seen. It's a pity that people are brazen to claim lots of diffferent things online behind internet anonimity. Nevertheless your unsupported claim merely strengthens the reliability of the video.

[ramoss100]

@gi2bull actually being a student (of theology) and working full time i actually got caught up in real life. I also know that there are several differing views and usually am taken aback when someone states something with such a firmness that is not as firm in the circles of academia thinking. Some say there are 7 authentic Pauline writings some say more....also there were more then the Ebionism who denied the Divinity of God. They included Arianism.

[gi2bull]

@ramoss100 I guess i exposed myself as not of the academia. Thanks for replying to this curious fool behind a pc. I apologize and peace be with you.

[ramoss100]

not bad but some historical errors are probably caused by religious tradition and rhetoric.

[Hkepfer]

The below was sent to me:

@Hkepfer ... yes.... as was Simon Peter. When CHRIST comes to DESTROY that "church" to the SUN god, will you believe then?

When CHRIST comes, I hope to be "like one of the wise virgins".

Should I personally belong to something wrong of CHRIST, then the question answers itself.

[narlycat]

Polycarp was a Quartodeciman, so was Polycrates, the Apostle John and Paul (I Cor. 5:6-8)...the entire church in asia was excluding the anti-Semitic gnostics.. you don't mention the Quartodeciman controversy at all, Victor of Rome threatened Polycrates with excommunication if he didn't give up Passover on Nisan 14. the church in Rome gave up the Passover in an anti-Semitic response to unpopular Jewish revolts in 115 AD & 135. i believe Sixtus I may have been the first to accept this heresy

[arayagerardo]

2010 years and people are still willingly being fooled.

[JaredsJamboree]

Wow. I am so impressed by these videos. Thanks you for taking the time to give us this wealth of information. God bless

[JessicaEBigham]

I love that he shows pat Robertson when he says heretic. Robertson is such a hateful man....

[Exdmaninpg]

David,

You show one picture that looks similar to the modern day Petecostal (or Oneness Pentacostal) movement. With the belief that speaking in tongues as the necessary initial evidence of the Holy Spirit, where does this teaching fall in to the history of Christianity?  Thanks.

[hillarychapman1]

excellent summary. sounds like names are mispronounced in some cases

[eatatmargos]

ah... "holy" sacrament of the eucharist??? gimme a break. catholicism was founded by Peter Magus & has NOTHING to do with CREATOR or CHRIST but... they did create a god and a christ... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

[davidpwithun]

@eatatmargos Good thing I'm not Roman Catholic, huh?

[Hkepfer]

@davidpwithun I'm glad I am Catholic! :-)

[topheronline]

@davidpwithun

so pope clement of rome is a successor of Peter Magnus.. lolz...

[eatatmargos]

@topheronline when CHRIST HIMself DESTROYS the "city on 7 hills" will you believe THEN?

[Hkepfer]

@eatatmargos Words not unsubstantiated by facts.

[Hkepfer]

@eatatmargos Foolishness! Magus' first name was Simon.

Where would like that break?

Find flaws in your logic or lack of knowledge of Western History?

If you chose not to believe that every mass is a miracle that is fine but don't put down those of us who do think as such -there is significant apologetics to almost any question of reconciling natural law to biblical teachings; the development of ethics & w/out doubt determining our current albeit flawed wester culture. I am Catholic. :-)

[eatatmargos]

@Hkepfer ... yes.... as was Simon Peter. When CHRIST comes to DESTROY that "church" to the SUN god, will you believe then?

[hockeyrulesus]

@eatatmargos Ignatius was taught by St John the Apostle and without any doubt, Catholic.

St Ignatius 107AD

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ"

Ignatius on the Pope

". . to the church also which holds the Presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, and, because you hold the Presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father"

[eatatmargos]

@hockeyrulesus the traditions of MEN and the DOGMA of catholicism does NOT make a TRUTH. YOU need to WAKE UP.

[hockeyrulesus]

@eatatmargos As I stated above, this tradition, and this Bible, were given to us by the Apostles. The writings don't lie.

One of the great things about Ignatius is, he is writing during Apostolic times, and teaching Catholic Doctrine, He and other Early Church Fathers VERIFY that OUR CATHOLIC INTERPRETATIONS OF SCRIPTURE ARE CORRECT, AND CAN NOT BE DISPUTED.

Ya gotta love that Ignatius!!! AMEN! AMEN!!

[hockeyrulesus]

@eatatmargos Words of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, and Co Worker of the Apostles;

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

[DopoNotte]

David!!! At 9:07 you show a picture of my parish here in Boston! That's definitely St. Mary's on Holy Thursday. Where did you get that picture?

[davidpwithun]

@DopoNotte I'm not sure -- I save beautiful pictures when I come across them online to use in my videos. It's a beautiful church -- if I ever make it up Boston way I'm definitely going to visit!

[DopoNotte]

David, I venerated the skull of Justin Martyr.. I kissed it! Great video as always.

[davidpwithun]

@DopoNotte That's awesome! :) The relic on the altar at the church me and my wife and children were baptized was also a relic of St. Justin. Reading the statement in the Martyrdom of Justin about the Christians taking the bodies of Justin and his companions to venerate them was amazing to me because of that. It's really a blessing to have been received into Orthodoxy in the presence of these same relics written about almost 1850 years ago.

[TheGenuineChristian]

@DopoNotte That's sick.

[age234]

I don't think there is a standard practices. I've heard of parishes having a dedicated parsonage, but my own priest has his own house. As to salary, it varies. The antiochian archdiocese requires the parish pay the priest a typical professional's salary according to their region. So, a teacher's salary, say. ROCOR has no such rule, and many of their priests make far less. It varies. But they're not in it for money, or shouldn't be.

[jmkora]

Agreed.. an Atheist isn't biased toward any particular branch of Christianity. If it isn't too much trouble, can you give me some quotes or references from his work that you see as lending credence to Orthodoxy? Also, here's a user that I think is worth your while to check out: shammahbn. The guy's apparently an evangelical..though I don't really see how he can remain one. Maybe you could engage him a bit :-)

[davidpwithun]

@jmkora I'm not sure if I can cite specific pages/paragraphs, but often his general message is helpful. Actually, I kind of get a laugh out of reading him sometimes, because he writes things in a way that shows he clearly expects to shock the reader -- (the Bible didn't drop down out of heaven as a single book; it was put together by the Church in order to support the Faith they already held -- wait, oh no!). Things like that might be deeply troubling for some readers, especially the ...

[davidpwithun]

@jmkora evangelical and fundamentalist strains of Protestantism -- he himself was once a member of one of these groups and lost his faith after being exposed to the early Christian Church -- it shocked his sensibilities when he found that the Faith of the early Christians was so different from his own and that the Bible he considered the center of Christianity was actually a product of four centuries of development. If he'd have been Orthodox, it would have been no big deal. :-P

[davidpwithun]

@jmkora I'll check out shammahbn's channel -- thanks for letting me know about him! :)

[Twycross]

I don't think David is putting heretics here in any specific rank. Heresy is heresy, be it a small step or a massive leap missing Orthodoxy is missing Orthodoxy.

[thekingmaker10]

Ha! I love how you splice in the photos of Joel Osteen & others as you mention words like "heresy"! I wouldn't however, lump people like him in with others you show, like Joseph Smith. Osteen's "Prosperity Theology" is bad because it does not focus on some important aspects of Christianity, the consequences of sin, though it does not deny them. However, that is a far cry from claiming to be a prophet and making up a new religion, like Smith did.

[thekingmaker10]

@thekingmaker10 Also, I am not really sure it is fair to put Pat Robertson in that category either. While he has had some "Senior Moments" as of late and think he has been full of it at times, I think he really means well and he doesn't pray on the vulnerability of sick people to acquire wealth and adorn his body with expensive jewelry like Benny Hin and those of his ilk do.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 I don't mind "senior moments." I know an old monk who has them all the time -- but they generally don't involve bouts of anger and vitriolic hatred. I'd like to see Robertson have a "Christian moment" once. His reaction to the recent earthquakes in Haiti is typical -- rather than express Christian compassion, call for prayer, repentance, and charity -- he repeats a racist slander invented by the French about the Haitians making a deal with the devil -- and says this is God's

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun By what you say here about Pat Robertson and his Haiti comments, I am forced to wonder if you actually read his comments in their entirety, or simply heard the one or two sentences that were emphasized in the liberal media? He may indeed be incorrect in his idea that the Haitian Revolutionaries practiced satanic rituals, but he did follow that up with a call to prayer & support for the Haitian people. Remember, there is nothing the enemy (& the media) loves more than to divide us.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 Yeh... I just can't give any kind of support, even a nod, to that type of behavior. It's a bit like coming across a guy who just got hit by a car -- you punch him in the face then render CPR. Giving the CPR later doesn't excuse the fact that you punched a dying man in the face. You know?

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun Well, I would say its a bit more like coming across that same guy who just got hit by the car, chastising him for walking out in front of the car (even though you didn't actually see him do it), and then rendering CPR. It still was wrong to chastise him (especially when you may not even be correct in assuming it was his fault), but not as bas as actually contributing to his injuries.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 punishment. This man has misled many into believing that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this spiteful thing -- he has misled both those who follow him and think that they are really Christians and those who turn away from him and think that they are really rejecting Christianity, when all they are really rejecting is a wretched, possibly demon-inspired, old man. I say demon-inspired because there is no one that wants to see such a perversion of the Gospel more than the evil one.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 I apologize if I've come across here as being a bit harsh -- but I have to be blunt when it comes to things like this. I have to be blunt because it is disgusting to me to see the gospel so twisted by these people. The ancient Christians were known to their pagan neighbors for they uncompromising love and compassion they showed to all people -- and yet Robertson & Phelps make the Gospel into a message of hate. Orthodox Christians of this century have given their lives in the

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun Yeh, I am not familiar with Phelps, but I don't recall Pat Robertson encouraging his flock to "hate" anyone. Now, he is certainly not one of these pastel Christians who advocates for redefining marriage to suit the desires of homosexuals, and that is certainly construed in the liberal media as "intolerant" and "hateful", but I wouldn't think you to be one who would fall for such media propaganda.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 It's just the way he says things -- it's not in line with biblical/orthodox Christianity -- his constant references to the impending wrath of God, his blaming of pagans, homosexuals, and feminists for everything bad that happens, his strangely unwavering support for a Jewish state that persecutes Christians, not to mention his consistently confusing American conservative politics with Christianity.

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun I understand completely that Pat Robertson is a bomb-thrower. That is a just matter of style though. Can you deny that the misguided aspects of the feminist movement have largely contributed to rising cohabitation and out-of-wedlock births, which in-turn leads to increased poverty and crime? And how does the Bible describe homosexual acts? Does it not call them an "abomination unto God"? How much more harsh a condemnation could there be?

[thekingmaker10]

@thekingmaker10 The important point is that however harshly you condemn sin, you must always remind sinners that it isn't too late to repent. Now, I don't watch Robertson much, but when I have, he has always followed up a condemnation of sinful acts with a call for those who commit them to repent and turn to God's way. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one. Even our Lord called out people on their sinful ways to make them see their need for him. (ie: the woman at the well)

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 millions for Jesus Christ and have endured unimaginable tortures and trials for our God -- and yet Dollar and Osteen twist the Gospel message beyond recognition and claim that Christians should be rich and prosperous in a material sense. I can't, as an Orthodox Christian who knows what the Gospel really consists of and whose brothers and sisters suffer even today for their Faith, in Egypt, Iraq, Kosovo -- with a good conscience say that these "other gospels" are not demonic.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 My first thought here is what twycross already said: Heresy is heresy -- if it ain't the truth, then it's a lie. Hebrews 13:9 tells us not to be carried away by "strange doctrines" (that is, innovative departures from the Apostolic Faith) -- all heresies are "strange doctrines." But, even if we allow for some gradation in heresy, in the light of things like the "prosperity gospel" the ancient heresies of Nestorianism, Arianism, Eutychianism, etc. seem negligible -- they were...

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 largely shifts in emphasis on certain points -- shifts which had serious implications but which in themselves seem relatively minor. The prosperity gospel, on the other hand, is a completely different gospel -- it's not the gospel of biblica/traditional/orthodox Christianity, and so is very on par with the Gnosticism and Marcionism I was speaking about in this video. Sin and its consequences are at the heart of the gospel -- to not sideline these is to sideline the gospel ...

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 itself. See what Scripture has to say about those who teach a "different gospel" in Galatians 1:6-9. The prosperity gospel is a "different gospel" -- and Scripture itself says that those who preach it are "accursed" (literally: anathema) and that such a pseudo-gospel is not salvific. Osteen, Dollar, etc. are leading people to damnation -- strong words, sure, but that's what Scripture says.

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun I agree Osteen fails in many ways, but to say that he preaches a "different" Gospel is not the truth. He teaches the same 4 that you and I know. He simply focuses on the carrot, and not the stick. He doesn't deny that the stick exists. Contrast that to Joesph Smith. He taught an actual "different" gospel, one which he made up, or that was dictated to him by a demon.

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 I've read some of what he's written -- I can tell you that his faith is very different from mine. I'll put it this way: as an Orthodox Christian, the standard, for me, of the Christian Faith is ancient, biblical, Orthodox Christianity -- and Osteen, Robertson, Dollar, etc. are all very, very far from that. Osteen's teaching is like a slap in the face to the millions of Orthodox Christians who have suffered and died for Christ in just the last hundred years.

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun I would also add to your criticisms of Osteen and others like him, there is something about a Pastor flying first-class, wearing expensive suits and driving fancy cars that just irks me. I'm not saying Clergy should take a vow of poverty, but I really don't like the idea of becoming financially wealthy by preaching. What is the OC position on Clergy subsistence? Are they paid a normal salary, or do they simply live on Church grounds and have their needs taken care of?

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 Our clergy get some pretty meager salaries -- salaries in the US tend to be better than they are in the old world, but it's still not great. Most of our clergy have pretty large families, too. Most of the married priests I've met have other jobs, usually as teachers or professors, in addition to their priestly duties. I don't think pastors need to take a vow of poverty (although there are those who do), but I have a hard time thinking of someone like Osteen or Dollar as a ...

[davidpwithun]

@thekingmaker10 pastor at all in the light of the way that Orthodox clergy, with or without a vow of poverty, live.

[thekingmaker10]

@davidpwithun So, do Orthodox clergy normally live in a church-provided residence and drive a church-provided car, so that they only receive a stipend for food and clothing, or is all of their compensation in the form of a full-time salary?

At the Church I grew up in, the Pastor's family lived in a home on Church grounds and drove a church car. I think we paid him something like $1,000 per month just to cover food & clothing, etc., and he had no other job.

[jmkora]

David, excellent work here, as always. I have a question that I've been meaning to ask from your previous videos. You mention Bart Ehrman. How do his books lend credence to Orthodox Christianity?

[davidpwithun]

@jmkora He's an atheist and he's got some bad assumptions (the same bad assumptions that much modern Biblical scholarship is based upon) but he's also an excellent historian. Anything that's good history, of course, lends credence to Orthodox Christianity as the Orthodox Church is the Church founded by the Apostles -- and some of his books are good history -- real good history, so, though I don't agree with everything he writes, I don't have a problem suggesting them. Honestly, I think it

[davidpwithun]

@jmkora makes our case stronger sometimes because he is an atheist. If I only have links to people like Hart (who is an Orthodox Christian) and Pelikan (who became one) -- people might accuse me of picking and choosing. But when I say "well, read Ehrman -- cuz he's saying it too!" it makes a stronger case. As an atheist, he has every reason to not want Christianity to be true -- and so when he ends up presenting a history that supports what we're saying, it's a strong argument for us :)

[NikolaosOrthodoxos]

Great video, Keep up the good work!! God Bless-

[Pharaoh714]

Good job, keep them coming!

[VpVanja]

Great as always