Free Will Explained - Implications

[thefaustdilemma]

Thank you for the wonderful arguments promoting the continuity of society in the case of hard determinism. Yet, I wonder. Your video assumes that determinism is indeed true. However, this isn't a proven scientific fact considering the recent revelations of quantum mechanics. So then, how does society fare when faced with an indeterminate world? Assuming free will is still an illusion in this case, we run into some tricky issues not found in hard determinism.

[computerwrite]

Nice video. I agree. Thank you for sharing. 

[boboeu]

"You can respond to a behaviour or action pragmatically. Whitout having to be any moral dimension to that judgment, or without having to be any sense of free agency on the part of the inactor."

Do you mean no moral dimension to a judgement as instead of saying one has a behaviour *because* is immoral, one is immoral because of such behavior? A behaviour upon which one ultimately has no choice.

[boboeu]

But, if society has a set of laws (moral?), any act outside those laws is an act of *freedom from* it. And if one knows those laws there's arguably a 'choice'.

[phiphers]

excess free will is an obstacle for evolving, submitted will makes evolving impossible

[Aphex217Twin]

the brain only understands freewill and coercion, so when some philosopher says it's all cause and effect, the brain just lumps that into the coercion cattegory, so it feels like we would be coerced if we were caused, which isn't true, because we're still doing what we want, and therefore will still respond to punishment/reward.

[menkooomigen]

You have a great way of putting forward good points, I completely share your view on this subject.

[dartplayer170]

Your explanation on parenting and moral responsibility is moot. We as parents also do not have the ability to perform free will. Thus our actions of how we bring up our children is pre-determined. There is no logical way around the problem of moral responisbility. Many have tried to circumvent it. But these circumventions are BS.

[Harbinger631]

I think it's funny that this video is solely the result of physical laws, this video came to be just like a rock rolls downhill.

[Toskana416]

You are absolutely right .

[gorgrim90]

If you live where I live - you are nearly forced into a slave work or constant searching for a job, and or academia as long as you recieve benefits - both of which is not really about wisdom or philosophy.

man wise or otherwise must drink and eat, so one way or the other, compensation, benefits, gifts, hospitality, or self-resourcefulness is needed for a man to live. I guess it all depends on how you define yourself to be in relation to other human beings.

I wonder how i manage to live.

[sonnygll]

Now all that is just my take on this video. I agree with the video. But obviously I can't speak for these guys. For all I know maybe they think I misunderstood what they meant by illusion.

[Reido2828]

Free will is there. Life is random and we interpret it that way. Free will as an illusion is just garbage. We our our brains and therefore we get the choice to do what we like whether good or bad

[MenoftheInfinite]

"Choice" is not an expression of free will in any real sense. Our choices are conditioned.

[Reido2828]

Not always. How do you determine this theory with success? Can we know by pouring into the brain of a human to find out if they will be successful or not? I still think consciousness decision making is what is true and free. If I want to turn a knob to the right I can do that but before I go to turn it I can turn it to the left instead. There is still not enough evidence to say whether or not we have free will. Even if our brains predict our movements we still are doing it on our own.

[sonnygll]

You can reduce everything to reactions of subatomic particles (even brains), which can react only by the laws of physics. So it can only happen as it happens. It is the fact that our brains are part of this as you pointed out, and that we don't have knowledge of most of these reactions that free will seems real from our point of view.

You may as well just live as if there is free will because the illusion is how we see things, but keep in mind that it isn't actually real.

[Reido2828]

But we have consciousness awareness. I know why I shouldn't drink and drive because I make a consciouss choice about it. I choose to have a love for science and philosophy because I find it interesting. If this is genetics then I must of been adopted because noone in my family enjoys science like I do. It is partly our environment. Are you saying the goals we set we should not try and achieve?

[sonnygll]

No, I think you misunderstand me. We do have conscious awareness, we do make choices in a way and it is good to set goals and achieve them.

Genetics doesn't have anything to do with it. It goes much deeper than that. Everything can be broken down into tiny reactions that just follow the laws of physics. You can take it down to all the atoms in your brain reacting to each other according to physical laws. This is why there is no free will. Those reactions can only go one way. (I'll continue)

[sonnygll]

(continued)

Now although everything can be reduced, that's not all there is to it. Things can be more than the sum of their parts so to speak. All the cells of our brain combine to make something the components can work as part of, while having no understanding of the whole. This is the emergence of consciousness. Look up emergence. So because of that, and our not knowing about the outcome of all the reactions in our brain, we have the illusion of free will. (I'll need one more post.)

[Reido2828]

It is just an illusion but if our brains make the decision at every level of experience then there still making a decision based on our experiences leading up to that point. It is not free will but it is definetely the ability to choose right and wrong.

[sonnygll]

Well, sort of. The choosing of right and wrong or any other decision can be reduced to particles and energy reacting to each other. So it's all predetermined. Given enough knowledge everything could be predicted. Even though having that much knowledge isn't possible.

But from a practical approach and from our point of view, there is free will, even if it is technically an illusion. So you're right from that point of view.

[sonnygll]

Dan Dennett actually did 2 sets of lectures on this. One about consciousness and the other about free will. On free will he greatly stressed the part about free will being real as far as the mind is concerned. But he did admit that it boils down to reductionism and determinism. He spoke of free will more as a product of consciousness rather than an illusion. But with determinism being reality, I think illusion fits.

[sonnygll]

Now if you are just defining free will as our emergence of consciousness and scientific indeterminism, than I agree with you, free will is real.

This video is just talking about determinism being the ultimate reality from the 3rd person point of view. In that sense our free will point of view is an illusion.

So I think we actually agree. Maybe virtual, is a better word for free will. It's a product of physical processes that are determined. But I'm not saying it doesn't exist or matter.

[sonnygll]

So with this illusion of free will, from our practical point of view we make choices and are in control. For practical purposes we should go along with our point of view. However we should be aware that it's an illusion and understand the implications of that. But free will being an illusion doesn't change how one lives life. You still make choices and have goals because it is kind of real in a virtual sense. Your life is what you make of it regardless of the underlying mechanisms.

[Reido2828]

Ok so what about success? Hm I still think it evolves. Check out Dan Dennett's book freedom evolving. Yes were limited I understand that but we can imagine our selves outside the laws of physics. While our brain makes our decisions for us. We as a whole get to choose who we want to hang out with? what teacher we want? And what we wish to do with our lives. I am the way I am through knowledge not genetics and I chose to read the information I have been reading.

[Reido2828]

How is a choice conditioned?

[MenoftheInfinite]

How can choice not be conditioned? For a start it is conditioned by its very nature - i.e. it is conditioned by its own objects (the causes for it to be in the first place and its possible directions). Either a individual thought arises out of causes and conditions or it arises out of nowhere for no reason and with no connection to anything. How would that be "will" in any meaningful sense?

[Reido2828]

Read Dan Dennett's book freedom evolves. How can a person who was born into a life of drugs and abuse turn out so good? They have made a choice not to end up that way. Don't be so black and white. To you and this whole concept of free will. What is success to you? How does a person become successful or achieve actual goals they set?

[MenoftheFinite]

The same way a person fails. A choice is either conditioned or arises out of nowhere. There's no middle ground there.

[Reido2828]

No i mean deep down. Are we born to do this and that or do we change over time?

[MenoftheFinite]

Our "ability" to change over time has little to do with the issue of whether free will is ultimately real or not. Our ability to change is pretty much built into the fluid nature of the brain. It just depend on what factors are involved whether we will or not.

[Reido2828]

Do you agree that even tho free will is an illusion there is still no excuses for people to make if they murder, steal, cheat etc. they cannot blame their brain for this act. Also, If humans do not have free will does that mean there could be destiny waiting for themÉ I personally still believe that you have no idea whats going to happen tommorow

[MenoftheInfinite]

My inability to predict the future doesn't seem relevant. As for whether people have "excuses" - we cannot rightly hold people to account as free will agents, but we most certainly can hold them to account as unfree causal agents. In other words, the lack of free will is not a free pass for behaviour. We still have to recognize the consequences of certain natures and act accordingly.

[Reido2828]

What do you do for a living?

[MenoftheFinite]

Think.

[Reido2828]

Thank you

[Reido2828]

I must ask. Do you feel in a society that is mostly science and technology that philosophy is useless?

[MenoftheFinite]

Absolutely not. Philosophy makes science what it is (and describes and prescribes its limits). Philosophy defines science. Good quality thought is what matters.

[Reido2828]

I agree but the two are very far seperated now. Did you ever study it in school?

[MenoftheFinite]

I'm a high-school dropout (not for academic reasons), Most of my learning has been autodidactic.

[Reido2828]

O. What kind of work are yo u in?

[MenoftheInfinite]

I'm in a work avoidance program. Some people call it welfare.

[Reido2828]

So you dropped out of high school and are on welfare? I doubt that lol I assume a science major? No body drops out and does intense video's like this

[MenoftheInfinite]

Yes they do. Philosophy has got little to do with formal education. Academic philosophy is mere scholarship. All that is required to achieve understanding in philosophy is a powerful will to truth. Its about values more than intelligence or institutionalized education. And I didn't drop out of high school for academic reasons - i.e. I wasn't a bumbass.

[Reido2828]

Interesting. I think self education is a lot more powerful than the educational system it self. Why do you collect welfare?

[MenoftheInfinite]

Self education allows you to focus on that which is of most direct interest to you. Of course, it's not always the best option, but it works for things like philosophy. And I collect welfare so that I can do that philosophy. It's just about impossible to be caught in workaday pressures and think deeply.  How did I manage to get welfare? Hard work, basically. But being committed to wisdom is tantamount to a disability in this world.

[Reido2828]

Ya true but your free will video is not 100% correct. There is still more to this free will debate going on. Self education actually is a great way to go. Walter Pitts was a prime scientist who was self educated as was Buckminster fuller. Why are you an atheist?

[MenoftheInfinite]

I'm an atheist because God either does not exist or is totally irrelevant.

[D4R3W]

i like the way you live

we need more people like you

[AhabCaptn]

great video again MOI !!

I can predict the future.

I can predict that 99.999% of everyone I come in contact for the rest of my life will cling faithfully to a belief structure that is a separate self, separate god, linear time, free will, life and death, heaven and hell, good for me, bad for me.

alas, infinity contains countless infinities (a silly thing to say) and sometimes all we see is patterns radiating outward. We can't chose to blame/ punish anyone or not blame/ punish them anyway.

[Unknnnnn]

in the end it bothers me because criminals don't need punishment they need rehabilitation current punishment system is equal to hitting a baby for crying

[tk050305cnx]

Again, determinism is the illusion.

You are essentially applying billiard ball logic to consciousness. That is about as naive as explaining the behaviour of subatomic particles in terms of billiard ball physics.

Consciousness is not based on the brain, but the brain is based on consciousness.

[MenoftheInfinite]

Strawman alert! Run, Edward Woodwood, run!

[dartplayer170]

at 2:00 you begin to discuss a solution for the question of moral responsibility. You suggest that we can act pragmatically to 'bad' behaviours. But, are you not forgettting the we are also part of the deterministic universe. The system itself which makes decisions on how to react to 'bad' behaviour is part of the deterministic system. Thus, the decisions that it makes are determined. Moral responsibility is a useless concept in a deterministic universe!

[tk050305cnx]

Hahaha!

Determinism is the illusion.

It's amazing how many things you got wrong. Your misunderstanding is based on another misunderstanding, namely that consciousness is deterministic. It isn't. Consciousness is not computation. It is not brain states. It is not caused. Only the contents of consciousness are caused.

You are neither a machine nor a computer program. You have control over the contents of your consciousness. Therefore you have free will.

Cheers, Thomas

[MenoftheInfinite]

Still speaking gibberish, Thomas? Good for you! You say only the *content* of consciousness is caused. What part of consciousness is not its content, exactly? And, if all the content of consciousnesses is caused, how does that translated into free will?

[tk050305cnx]

In fact, you are the master of gibberish if you can't even distinguish consciousness from its contents. Figure this out: intent is not content, but intent (or will) is a property of consciousness; it is not qualia. Thus, free will is not a consequence but a given of base consciousness. Of course, human experience is conditioned by our physical body and brain, and it is largely deterministic. But this doesn't imply that consciousness itself is deterministic.

[KevinSolway]

tk050305cnx, keep in mind that "deterministic" doesn't mean "predictable", but it means "caused". If any part of consciousness were not determined then it would be uncaused, which would be ridiculous.

[tk050305cnx]

"Deterministic" means deducible from previous states. You can describe state B in terms of relations to a preceding state A. Non-deterministic means not deducible from previous states, such as in a probabilistic model. You cannot calculate B from A, not even in theory. But this is not the point.

Intention is a property of consciousness. The very act of becoming conscious of an object or state is synonymous with intention. Now, our human mind is not totally free, but it has a degree of freedom.

[KevinSolway]

Many people don't agree with your definition of "deterministic" since many things are not practically deducible, yet are still caused. As I say, many people use the term "deterministic" to mean "determined" (by causes), and this doesn't imply that we can predict or deduce any particular thing.

I've made a video about this subject: v=mC_394GbX4Q

[KevinSolway]

Also, Thomas, you are talking about a "you" (a self) that is somehow apart from and separate from consciousness, and which has control over consciousness. What evidence do you have for the existence of such a thing?

[tk050305cnx]

The self isn't separate from consciousness. It *is* individuated consciousness.

[kasuskasus]

The deterministic idea of non-free will is in my view a tremedous insult to nature. In case you haven't noticed, the human brain is the most complex process in the whole of the known universe. I would be surprised if it wasn't capable of some pretty extraordinary feats!

Ok, I'll stop now.

[MenoftheInfinite]

Good, because that didn't make a whole lot of sense :)

[therach1025]

A complex process is still a process.

[kasuskasus]

That said though, I do agree that ultimately there are no free will. Because the self that I take myself to be exists only conventionally. Therefore, because I don't ultimately exist, I don't perform any ultimately existing actions.

But conventionally we do have free will. The point we often forget is death. People die, this is kinda like the penalty for conventional free will. When we die, there isn't much free will, innit?

[MenoftheInfinite]

One might say death is proof of the ultimate impotence of this free will of ours. The one thing most of us would freely choose against we have no choice in!

[kasuskasus]

So if you find yourself at a restaurant, why do you bother to order? You don't have any choice in the matter anyway, right?

[MenoftheInfinite]

A choice appears, but the point is that the choice is produced by factors other than the choice itself. The choice is not some isolated acausal (or self-causing) entity. It is not "free".

[kasuskasus]

Yes, I agree. On ultimate analysis, we find no choice. But the point I'm trying to make is what you yourself said: "a choice appears".

Just like a mirage contains no water, it doesn't mean that the appearance of the mirage is utterly non-existent.

[CultOfByron]

Upon entering the restaurant, my 'decision' not to order any food and instead commit the apparently random act of running around the place screaming, waving my hands around and urinating over the other customers is not an act of free will. I have effectively chosen from a limited range of possible actions, based on previous experience and what my body can actually do. Free-will in this sense can perhaps be better conceptualised as the ability of my motor neurons to 'select' behaviours...?

[dartplayer170]

Poor logic. Free will does not say that we can control the physical world. It is only about what we desire. We don't necessarily desire death even when it is happening to us. Although some may, simply because the alternative has become painfull or boring. Death occurs despite our will. Note that even in a deterministic universe, we would not necessarily will death. So, death has nothing to do with free will.

[kasuskasus]

I could accept that I didn't have any free will, but I simply can't, because it would be like denying that I have feet to walk on, while clearly there are two down there. It would simply be unreasonable for me to deny my direct experience.

All we have to do is to set up an experiment. You ask me to raise my hand in five seconds. If I manage to do it 10 times without fail, then it has clearly been proven empirically that I am an agent and have the choice to raise my arm at command.

[MenoftheInfinite]

We might not be able to deny our direct experience, but that doesn't mean we have to be led by our false inferences regarding those experiences. This is the real point. When you realise the nature of an illusion, it changes the way you think about certain things, even if in practical terms you continue to operate within that illusion. i.e. your engagement with the illusion changes.

[KellyJones0]

I should add, I don't mean that absolute egotist was successful in a spiritual sense...

[KellyJones0]

I think the four noble truths shouldn't be translated as (basically) "all is suffering, and the end of suffering is nirvana" because suffering is the fundamental law of justice (empathy is often not wanting to hurt others to avoid being hurt). Just as "absolute power corrupts absolutely", it would seem that the cessation of such suffering just means absolute egotism.

Also, super-successful people are really those without any peers, like the main character in A Clockwork Orange.

[Rybot9000]

Perfect. Those other videos you mentioned would certainly be interesting!

[MenoftheInfinite]

Unfortunately it'd taken the rest of my life to produce them, given the scope of the issues, and I have other vids in mind :)

[0ThouArtThat0]

If you believe it to be a mechanism, you really shouldn't use the word "consciousness" for our experience, as it implies the exact opposite of a mechanism for several reasons (ie, that it is more than the sum of its parts and that it is capable of self-causation). Either everything is not completely determined, or there is no such thing as consciousness.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Same goes for 'reason.' The only use for rationality is to make decisions. If we are a determined mechanism, there are no decisions to be made.

[MenoftheInfinite]

"Decision" is a description of an experience.  It's as real as any other experience. Causality doesn't negate reality (though we can infer false things about it).

The deterministic nature of reason doesn't negate its truth value or soundness. It just means that causes will either produce a sound rational product or an unsound one.

[MenoftheInfinite]

For consciousness not to be determined (caused), it must be infinite and eternal.  Are you arguing that it is?

[pknvdw]

OThouArtThatO :"If you believe it to be a mechanism, you really shouldn't use the word "consciousness" for our experience, as it implies the exact opposite of a mechanism for several reasons (ie, that it is more than the sum of its parts"

Do you know the sum of its parts? It seems premature to clam that mechanism cannot produce consciousness when we have so much to learn about the mechanism.

[pknvdw]

Punitive justice is a causal factor.

[MenoftheInfinite]

In what?

[pknvdw]

I human behaviour. The prospect of facing consequences of actions acts as a determinant of those actions. When people say that determinism abolishes responsibility and the need for justice they overlook the fact that those concepts are part of the deterministic system. They are functional, not abstract.

[nriab23]

Another very interesting eye opening video. What's the picture of at 5:50? It's quite captivating.

[MenoftheInfinite]

I think the one you're referring to is a digital artwork called "Conscience". Though, it evokes various ideas so I'll be using it in that fashion :)