how many polygons you guys think devs can push with tesselation? Im guessing soon wele hit 10million per frame :D (for ref i think crysis maxed at 7 mill)
Have you guys looked at the formula tech demo? Phong Tess works like AA and AF. it interprets and calculates the view points.and it does increase polys, look at the AVP wireframe video. so if the game is in DX11 then yes it will make it better. but if its an older DX8 game it might, if forced. Its more for devs than anything.
@phantombadger Its cheap and quicker to make a low poly count character and have tess make it magically bigger without and more work. 1 day rendering vs 1 week rendering? Tess = more Beautiful Games Faster.
you'll never ever play a game with as high tesselation as is shown on the extreme setting in this video. It's absolutely pointless. Not even animated feature films have models divided into that many polys. It's just pointless. Once you get past a certain point the increase in polys will give you no gain in visual quality what so ever. not even if you zoom far enough in for high res textures to look blurry and crap.
Tesselation is going to rock for terrain. not as huge for people and stuff.
but how the fuk is it possible that this is realtime this dense polycount how how i cant understand this how is it possible that is realtime in max the turbosmooth 2 doesnt genereta this dense and its almost diing in the viewport
It is because of a different cell-structure generated from the hardware rather than the software. As shown in the ATI Tesselation introduction video, a MASSIVE boost in performance is found when using tesselation rather than traditional turbosmooth.
@ronnysoeberg I agree with terrain water and clothing it looks good but when it's applied to structures and faces they tend to look disproportianate. I much rather have better textures. I really don't think it's a big deal that the new nvidia card out perform ati's at tesselation. I much rather have a cooler running card then more tesselation. Especially since my 9800gx2 fried itself with no overclocking. Granted I had it for 2 years but I'm still glad I went with Ati this time around.
Here we call upon "baking". It is where you have a low quality model(such as the model this would have been before tessellation)and then the better model is "baked" on. This makes the gamer believe the model, "character" or "avatar" is indeed the model that is baked on (through the use of normal maps, bump maps ect.).The low poly model is used as a collision model and a building block for the "maps". simply it allows high poly models to be shown with less stress on the computer. Hope this helps.
Anyway, I think this is just an extension of geometry shaders, which I already know about, and those are pretty cool, but I don't have the hardware for them. :/
means you can have a fuck load of polygons for a small amount of system resources, its all calculated by formulas. we can already make high-poly models, but its not practicle in games
Yeah, I see now, it's just a way to apply geometry shaders. It's interesting, but I'm not in a huge hurry to buy Windows 7 and get a new graphics card and give up OpenGL just to use it.. I think OpenGL 3 has geometry shaders.
It's not geometry shaders. OpenGL 3 can't do this.
What's happening is the GPU is tessellating the mesh using it's plethora of cores. When tessellating something, your are merely breaking it up into a pattern using an algorithm. The higher the tessellation, the more pieces and thus the more vertex points.
By creating so many more vertex points on the base model, your displacement map has more points to displace. And thus your able to create a much more detailed model, still running real-time.
Yes that's mainly what it's going to be used with. Another thing it will be used for is increasing the smoothness/faces of objects. Such as spherical shapes. No more 6 or 12 sided tubes lol, completely smooth :P
We have high poly models they are used all the time. What constitutes high polygons is dependent on the standards for today. In fact everything today uses a lot more polygons than say x box(in older games you could literally see the shapes).
Tessellation its just an idea for a way to create good 3d models designed to rival high poly models
which could be ran faster with as good or better detail. I remember first reading about it when quake 3 was in dev stage. It has been used, but not comonly.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
i think tessellation is used manly for physics(higher polys = higher realism) and upconverting a game (UT can look like UT3) and Terrain and plus i think there is a diffrence with tessellation and high-poly ... im not sure,
No, they usually use much lower polygon models for physics, to save processing time.
And you can't magically convert an older game to a higher-polygon version through tessellation, it.. that's not how 3D modelling works. Maybe you could smooth it or something, but it would be indiscriminate and weird-looking, and the textures would still suck.
Well actually you could. Because that's how tessellation works. It increases the available vertex points on an already existing model in the game. You then displace those points with a displacement map. So you can make models in an old game look much better that way. But of course, you need to create those displacement maps. But purely through tessellation you could still increase the quality due to smoother geometry just from using the tessellation.
@cyborgtroy thats not absolutely right. tesselation replaces normal mapping and these games, which use normal mapping, could be - as far as i see - easy modified to use these normalmaps for tesselation. when idsoftware releases the doom3 sourcecode this or next year, we will see.
@tiefensucht - The way I saw this, I thought it was basically GPU-accelerated displacement mapping.
Normal maps designed just for normal mapping don't have displacement data, but there might be a way to fudge it in there by converting the z-coordinate of the normal to a displacement along the normal vector.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. I'll have to wait a while since I'm not the kind of person who keeps up with graphics hardware.
First off, just as the G80 all cards has driver issues of a first generation, that's seen through history in every single card. 2900XT performance was fixed right on Driver 7.7. AA/AF performance is identical to the GTS. I've had real tests with a 8800GTS 640mb and the 2900XT, with latest drivers for both my videocard scored 100pts better in 8xAA and 16xAF while the other rig had better general score from the CPU (6000+ VS E6750...)
the G90 is launching Q1 next year. ANd R680 in January 2008 and R700 Q2 next year. I doubt the G90 will stand much chance against the R700 as ATi won't do the same mistake as they did this launch as the potential of the R700 will be utlized as good as they can, which was the problem with R600, it wasn't finished to 100%, if it were then the G80 would already have gotten a good spanking.
Its not that noisy, you're just an idiot who haven't even seen it physicly in front of you, operating or not. If you got atleast one fan inside your case the fan will most likely operate at a silent 21% and when rendering 3D application it'll speed up as the temperatures speed up, just like any other videocard, and I doubt you're playing mute, so go grab some better arguments. Pay more for less if you want, that's your problem.
Thunderstorm? hahaa, you're not supposed to have your head inside your case you nutjob. Go the a 8600GTS Silent if you want a silent solution. G90 is launching next year.
Remember the 2900XT is targeted to take down the 8800GTS 640mb, and it sure did. And so does a overclocked 2900pro. There will be no 8900GTX, nor do you wish to pay that much for that little - the R680, 55nm GTX-killer will be launched in January, G90 is expected later Q1 '08 and R700 Q2 next year. And what Nvidia really does with the G90 is to add ATi's Tessalation unit and push down the chip, but ATi will still have the smallest chip.
Well, I dont think that ati lost battle against nVIDIA...Yea, this card is weaker then 8800GTX but only on windows XP pro but on vista it isnt cause its made for DX10 and in some things its much better then GTX...I think that this graphics card (HD 2900 XT) is the answer on nVIDIA-s 8800 GTS/GTX...its better then GTS and little bit better on Vista!...IM buying that card next week cause i wanna play supreme commander on max performance and starcraft 2 when it comes on the market :)
240p... we meet again...
RacingRyan0 5 months ago
how many polygons you guys think devs can push with tesselation? Im guessing soon wele hit 10million per frame :D (for ref i think crysis maxed at 7 mill)
buddysmithburg 1 year ago
@buddysmithburg 25 Million is currently the max for average gaming Pc.
DarkAnimeWindSlayer 7 months ago
Have you guys looked at the formula tech demo? Phong Tess works like AA and AF. it interprets and calculates the view points.and it does increase polys, look at the AVP wireframe video. so if the game is in DX11 then yes it will make it better. but if its an older DX8 game it might, if forced. Its more for devs than anything.
phantombadger 1 year ago
@phantombadger Its cheap and quicker to make a low poly count character and have tess make it magically bigger without and more work. 1 day rendering vs 1 week rendering? Tess = more Beautiful Games Faster.
phantombadger 1 year ago
what a waste of polygons
WhiteDragon103 1 year ago
you'll never ever play a game with as high tesselation as is shown on the extreme setting in this video. It's absolutely pointless. Not even animated feature films have models divided into that many polys. It's just pointless. Once you get past a certain point the increase in polys will give you no gain in visual quality what so ever. not even if you zoom far enough in for high res textures to look blurry and crap.
Tesselation is going to rock for terrain. not as huge for people and stuff.
ronnysoeberg 2 years ago
but how the fuk is it possible that this is realtime this dense polycount how how i cant understand this how is it possible that is realtime in max the turbosmooth 2 doesnt genereta this dense and its almost diing in the viewport
Levente20 2 years ago
It is because of a different cell-structure generated from the hardware rather than the software. As shown in the ATI Tesselation introduction video, a MASSIVE boost in performance is found when using tesselation rather than traditional turbosmooth.
soulmman 2 years ago
wow genius, this is definetly a milestone in gameing history :O
Levente20 2 years ago
@ronnysoeberg I agree with terrain water and clothing it looks good but when it's applied to structures and faces they tend to look disproportianate. I much rather have better textures. I really don't think it's a big deal that the new nvidia card out perform ati's at tesselation. I much rather have a cooler running card then more tesselation. Especially since my 9800gx2 fried itself with no overclocking. Granted I had it for 2 years but I'm still glad I went with Ati this time around.
barbarianbro 1 year ago
Tunisia? Nice.
NeoXF 2 years ago
Spikes are probebly Displacement maps, Along with some others.
d3tach3d 3 years ago
They want us to believe that real ingame characters will be detailed as this ninja ?
greatbarrakuda 4 years ago
Here we call upon "baking". It is where you have a low quality model(such as the model this would have been before tessellation)and then the better model is "baked" on. This makes the gamer believe the model, "character" or "avatar" is indeed the model that is baked on (through the use of normal maps, bump maps ect.).The low poly model is used as a collision model and a building block for the "maps". simply it allows high poly models to be shown with less stress on the computer. Hope this helps.
startroop69 3 years ago 6
well put. There is no point in having millions of polys for a model when we have model smoothing and normal/bump maps.
d3tach3d 2 years ago
of course theres point, u wont see 8 segment wheels anymore for example in a racing game.
Levente20 2 years ago
Most games don't use only 8 segments for a wheel anyway if the hardware can handle more.
I'm not sure what tessellation is supposed to do, it's not as though we can't already make high-poly models anyway.
cyborgtroy 2 years ago
yes they use 9 segments xD, dude just open ur eyes while ur watching this video. if ur into 3d like i am u should know that this is a milestone.
Levente20 2 years ago
pfft man this one time I used 16 segments.
Anyway, I think this is just an extension of geometry shaders, which I already know about, and those are pretty cool, but I don't have the hardware for them. :/
cyborgtroy 2 years ago
pfff omg really 16 segments? wow where should i shit dude? lol what u see here is next gen technology accept it u know it too
Levente20 2 years ago
means you can have a fuck load of polygons for a small amount of system resources, its all calculated by formulas. we can already make high-poly models, but its not practicle in games
c3058872 2 years ago
Yeah, I see now, it's just a way to apply geometry shaders. It's interesting, but I'm not in a huge hurry to buy Windows 7 and get a new graphics card and give up OpenGL just to use it.. I think OpenGL 3 has geometry shaders.
cyborgtroy 2 years ago
It's not geometry shaders. OpenGL 3 can't do this.
What's happening is the GPU is tessellating the mesh using it's plethora of cores. When tessellating something, your are merely breaking it up into a pattern using an algorithm. The higher the tessellation, the more pieces and thus the more vertex points.
By creating so many more vertex points on the base model, your displacement map has more points to displace. And thus your able to create a much more detailed model, still running real-time.
KakkoiiBaka 2 years ago
So it's only for displacement mapping?
:/
I am confuse.
cyborgtroy 2 years ago
Yes that's mainly what it's going to be used with. Another thing it will be used for is increasing the smoothness/faces of objects. Such as spherical shapes. No more 6 or 12 sided tubes lol, completely smooth :P
KakkoiiBaka 2 years ago
We have high poly models they are used all the time. What constitutes high polygons is dependent on the standards for today. In fact everything today uses a lot more polygons than say x box(in older games you could literally see the shapes).
Tessellation its just an idea for a way to create good 3d models designed to rival high poly models
which could be ran faster with as good or better detail. I remember first reading about it when quake 3 was in dev stage. It has been used, but not comonly.
locthetoker 2 years ago
en.wikipedia . org/wiki/Tessellation#Tessellations_and_computer_graphics
tomshardware . com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019-7.html
KakkoiiBaka 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
i think tessellation is used manly for physics(higher polys = higher realism) and upconverting a game (UT can look like UT3) and Terrain and plus i think there is a diffrence with tessellation and high-poly ... im not sure,
SpeeBeta1 2 years ago
No, they usually use much lower polygon models for physics, to save processing time.
And you can't magically convert an older game to a higher-polygon version through tessellation, it.. that's not how 3D modelling works. Maybe you could smooth it or something, but it would be indiscriminate and weird-looking, and the textures would still suck.
cyborgtroy 2 years ago 10
Well actually you could. Because that's how tessellation works. It increases the available vertex points on an already existing model in the game. You then displace those points with a displacement map. So you can make models in an old game look much better that way. But of course, you need to create those displacement maps. But purely through tessellation you could still increase the quality due to smoother geometry just from using the tessellation.
KakkoiiBaka 2 years ago
@cyborgtroy thats not absolutely right. tesselation replaces normal mapping and these games, which use normal mapping, could be - as far as i see - easy modified to use these normalmaps for tesselation. when idsoftware releases the doom3 sourcecode this or next year, we will see.
tiefensucht 1 year ago
@tiefensucht - The way I saw this, I thought it was basically GPU-accelerated displacement mapping.
Normal maps designed just for normal mapping don't have displacement data, but there might be a way to fudge it in there by converting the z-coordinate of the normal to a displacement along the normal vector.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. I'll have to wait a while since I'm not the kind of person who keeps up with graphics hardware.
cyborgtroy 1 year ago
No, tessellation has no real use in physics simulation.
KakkoiiBaka 2 years ago
wat.
I lold.
masterpiraka 2 years ago
I have no problem believing it ;)
MadsterV 3 years ago
hate to disappoint you there Shelly but they already are
OnionMad 2 years ago
First off, just as the G80 all cards has driver issues of a first generation, that's seen through history in every single card. 2900XT performance was fixed right on Driver 7.7. AA/AF performance is identical to the GTS. I've had real tests with a 8800GTS 640mb and the 2900XT, with latest drivers for both my videocard scored 100pts better in 8xAA and 16xAF while the other rig had better general score from the CPU (6000+ VS E6750...)
BorkaBonum 4 years ago 2
the G90 is launching Q1 next year. ANd R680 in January 2008 and R700 Q2 next year. I doubt the G90 will stand much chance against the R700 as ATi won't do the same mistake as they did this launch as the potential of the R700 will be utlized as good as they can, which was the problem with R600, it wasn't finished to 100%, if it were then the G80 would already have gotten a good spanking.
BorkaBonum 4 years ago 2
Its not that noisy, you're just an idiot who haven't even seen it physicly in front of you, operating or not. If you got atleast one fan inside your case the fan will most likely operate at a silent 21% and when rendering 3D application it'll speed up as the temperatures speed up, just like any other videocard, and I doubt you're playing mute, so go grab some better arguments. Pay more for less if you want, that's your problem.
BorkaBonum 4 years ago 2
Thunderstorm? hahaa, you're not supposed to have your head inside your case you nutjob. Go the a 8600GTS Silent if you want a silent solution. G90 is launching next year.
BorkaBonum 4 years ago
Remember the 2900XT is targeted to take down the 8800GTS 640mb, and it sure did. And so does a overclocked 2900pro. There will be no 8900GTX, nor do you wish to pay that much for that little - the R680, 55nm GTX-killer will be launched in January, G90 is expected later Q1 '08 and R700 Q2 next year. And what Nvidia really does with the G90 is to add ATi's Tessalation unit and push down the chip, but ATi will still have the smallest chip.
BorkaBonum 4 years ago
Not really impressive....
premsil 4 years ago
And btw: running that card in crossfire...man, u wont recognize reality and game xD
zouless 4 years ago
Well, I dont think that ati lost battle against nVIDIA...Yea, this card is weaker then 8800GTX but only on windows XP pro but on vista it isnt cause its made for DX10 and in some things its much better then GTX...I think that this graphics card (HD 2900 XT) is the answer on nVIDIA-s 8800 GTS/GTX...its better then GTS and little bit better on Vista!...IM buying that card next week cause i wanna play supreme commander on max performance and starcraft 2 when it comes on the market :)
zouless 4 years ago 2
but the gtx is $150 more. dont you people get it?
qwertymac93 4 years ago
This card has set of nice features. Lets hope AMD/ATI optimize their drivers or they will loose the war against nVidia.
dmn1n 4 years ago
only 1 word can be said:
AWESOME!
ketero 4 years ago
uhm...
jergen07 4 years ago