Highland Fling - Genuine Scotish Highland Dance

[Kezzaahho9]

Helloo.. :)

Itt Sayss att thee Topp Highland Fling but itss /the Swordss,, [

Byee,, x

[NeverMindBird]

That's actually the sword dance.

[TheArdRigh]

Interesting sport, certainly not "genuine" culture though.

smurf4u2, seems to me you're way out of your depth. I know a bit of the Scottish toungue, and as far as I can tell ellaPhail seriously knows what she is talking about.Perhaps you should enter in a spirit of learning rather scathing her salient observations.

There conceptions of time in Gaelic which cannot be expressed in the english language, does that make it crap?

[JenTrenshaw]

This dance isn't the Highland Fling this is the Sword Dance. Note the swords crossed on the stage.

[martialpiper]

Sorry, I don't know what happened last post... this is the Ghillie Callum not the Fling. The lassie is doing a good job of the dance according to the standards she is required to demonstrate, in fact very good... but this is not "original Highland Dance" and has been altered to be acceptable to polite society..as the Gaels were treated as barbarians by Britain for a very long time. Real Highland dance was not influenced by ballet - girls didn't wear kilts and this was originally a warriors dance

[martialpiper]

This is the G

[donnchadhban]

I am a native Gaelic speaker and the comment above is fluent, articulate Gaelic; certainly not words from a dictionary as you claim. The grammar is far too complex for that. Obviously it is you, "smurf4u2", who is ignorant of Gaelic and you prove what "ellaphail" says to be true.

[ellaphail]

Genuine Highland Dance? No way! This custom of a girl in a kilt doing a sword dance is merely a travesty of Highland culture originating in English dance-schools; genuine Highland women wore long petticoats, not a kilt, and the sword dance was done by a man who was actually capable of using the sword. Having a Highland warrior portrayed by a woman is a deliberate mockery.

[smurf4u2]

If u knew about the real history 2 Highland Dancing u would not b spouting such utter rubbish. The dance is a genuine sword dance, the outfits and dances have evolved over the last 800 years through competitions and have nothing what so ever 2 do with English dance schools. Originaly these dances were only performed by men but equality took a hand nowadays the majority of highland dancers are women who are excellent dancers.

[ellaphail]

Tha mise a'bruidhinn an fhirinn, amadain! Chunnaic mi do dhealbh fhein le d'eideadh gorach - gun eadraidh sam bith ach "Hollywood"! B'fhearr leat cumail samhach. Iseabal NicPhaill, Tiriodh

[smurf4u2]

Dont hide behind gaelic you only spoke part of the truth and added a whole lot of rubbish at the back of it. hollywood has nothing to do with it either go to a highland dancing site and get the real history of the dances and the evolution of the music, steps and outfits you will also find out how and when women came to be dancing then men's dances and how after a couple of hundred years of competitons 98% of all highland dancers in the world are women.

[seumandonnchaidh]

The earliest actual competitions in "Highland" dance were in the late 19th century. The first to include women were in the 1920s and the counterclockwise version of the sword dance as seen in this video was devised at that time by Bobby Cuthbertson who had studied ballet in London. Previously it was clockwise according to Gaelic custom.

[Semiomniscient]

Question: Does the Gaelic custom of clockwise rotation for the sword dances go along with the old legend that I've heard in Scottish Country Dance that "only witches make their circles to the right?"

[donnchadhban]

It's no doubt of the same origin. The Lowland Scots word "widdershins" is equivalent to the Gaelic word "tuathal" and means a counterclockwise movement and also implies negativity.

[Semiomniscient]

Great. I appreciate the swift and knowledgeable response.

[Benmontfan]

Then where are all the male dancers to claim back their place ? None of the guys I know would deign to compete, so we're stuck with talented women in short skirts until we see more men dancing.

[Semiomniscient]

Not mockery. Think of it as homage to a culture that without these fine women dancers would be more obscure than it is already. You must understand that the Scots willingly borrowed dance customs from all over Europe--for instance, they would not have called steps "pas de basque" if they were trying to hide the fact it was Spanish. The Scots were not all so isolated as you might want to think. Most civilian highland dress comes from military custom--are we going to call that travesty?

[ellaphail]

The step you call "pas de basque" is different in the original Highland tradition and it was called "ceum beatadh". Dance schools outside the Highlands changed and renamed it. This does not imply isolation, but that the original style relates to the overal cultural. There are plenty of Highland men who can dance in the original style but they're kept out of the public eye by pseudo-Highland institutions with a vested interest in promoting their contrived versions done by their own dancers.

[Semiomniscient]

So the step is entirely different? Also, you talk about "traditional" styles as if there was a standard. Before dance associations there were no standards. Somebody from the Western Highlands might be doing something rather different from the East and then there's the Islanders and the Lowlanders.

[ellaphail]

The "Highland" dance associations were founded and run outside the Highlands by non-Highlanders. The standardised versions and the contrived "histories" put out by these "official" associations do not relate to the Highland cultural matrix any longer. Therefore they cannot be construed as a natural progression of Highland society. The SOBHD, RSCDS and STDT all lack Gaelic-speakers in their hierarchies and are arguably more Anglo-American than Highland.

[Semiomniscient]

1.) give me your source.

2.) standardization is a good thing for the survival of dance forms. That cannot be disputed.

3.) I usually refer to the Fletts as some of the most authoritative sources of Traditional Scottish Dance--not the societies.

[Semiomniscient]

Wait... so you must speak Gaelic to be a true Highlander or to have access to the traditions of the dancing?

[ellaphail]

It would make sense that someone who does not live in the Highlands, understand the language, the culture or or the way of life is not in a position to claim to be more genuinely "Highland" than those who do. But that is precisely what has been happening for decades. Gaelic is the Highland language.

[Semiomniscient]

There are plenty of Highlanders who don't speak much Gaelic at all, I'm willing to bet. Also, it has naught to do with whether to the traditions are accurate or not. As an American, I know a fair deal about Scottish attire. Just because some one is from Scotland doesn't mean they know traditional Scottish attire better than I do or that their word necessarily trumps mine.

[donnchadhban]

What an arrogant character you are, "somniopriscient"; do you think that you can "trump" all of us just by shouting the most? B'fhearr leat ri ionnsachadh le meas 'is naire! You will remain an ignoramous unless you learn respect and humility. True understanding of our tradition is accessible only through our language as is the case with any culture. Donnchadh Ban

[Semiomniscient]

It has nothing to do with shouting sir/ma'am. I'm hardly an ignoramous, and I don't think I've demonstrated otherwise. You can speak Gaelic and know nothing of Scottish dance or history. I know plenty of my students who speak decent English and know nothing about their own history. Sure, language is important, but having only a cursory knowledge of Hebrew doesn't make learning Old Testament ideology impossible. Besides, history is history, facts are facts.

[donnchadhban]

Donnchadh Ban is a man's name. Dance and attire are manifestations of an overall cultural matrix within a specific environment. An organisation which declares itself to be authoritative on Highland dance or attire yet does not engage with the people of that culture is suspect at least. The dancer above is the product of just such a body.

[Semiomniscient]

I can understand your issue. However, to be an expert on Highland attire or dance you needn't speak Gaelic, but it indeed would do you good to interact with those living in the Highlands. You however seem to disregard the fact that Highland culture lives and spreads not by those who have remained in the Highlands, but by those who've left for one reason or another. Thus, because that emigration has been occuring for a while now it is not surprising that a difference exists.

[albertawizard]

Typical Yank; preaching to others about their own business. What you're really doing, Semiobnoxious, is boasting about yourself by talking down to people from other countries. It's people like you who plug these phoney versions instead of the real thing just to serve your own egos.

[Semiomniscient]

How's it not my business? As a person who dances Scottish dances (who is also of Scottish descent) I find it is my business. I don't think I've been particularly obnoxious, just have a differing opinion and am willing to discuss the matter. It's got nothing to do with being from other countries either. You are the one belittling others because of their nationality--it's duly noted and not appreciated.

[albertawizard]

You proclaim yourself to be more of an expert than anyone in Scotland; despite your ignorance of their language and customs and you demand they justify themselves as if you were a judge! You're a conceited know-it-all who knows only superficialities! Have a look over what you've written.

[Semiomniscient]

When have I made such a claim or even alluded to such? I do ask for sources and justification for their claims. I'm not going to take the word of just any person on the Internet because they claim to be from Scotland. Ellaphail was most kind enough to supply some of his sources in private correspondence. Also, just because you're from a place doesn't make you an expert on it.  People in America don't always know American history or traditions, it is often similar in other nations.

[albertawizard]

What are YOUR qualifications? Some people may not be experts on the tradidtional dance of their country, but someone who's never been there and doesn't speak any of the language cannot possibly be a genuine "expert", at most just a distant enthusiast. And isn't Ella a female name?

[Semiomniscient]

I didn't ask for anyone's qualifications, just sources of information--because that can be verified. I am a Scottish dancer and have been since I was seven. (Scottish Country Dance--not Highland.) I've read about the subject and heard various things by word of mouth most of my life. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm certainly not unfamiliar with the dancing. People carry their traditions with them, so I am blessed enough to participate. (I haven't verified Ellaphail's gender.)

[smurf4u2]

Ellaphails been going round the dance videos attacking anything not to ellaphails taste or idea of what is scottish got to laugh at how narrow minded people can be. select the bits of history you like and discard the rest everything should stay the same, never change, cant think of anything much that has not changed, been refined or altered in some way that includes gaelic, how do you say aeroplane in gaelic you cant so how do they report the news in gaelic they add an english word for it,

[ellaphail]

The Gaelic for aeroplane is "iteolan", which is an purely Gaelic construct. English uses the cognate word which is not of native origin. Smurf, you might consider learning to write English correctly before spitting venom at Gaels better informed than yourself. Thalla 'is bog.

[smurf4u2]

better informed dont make me laugh being able 2 speak gaelic doesnt make you better informed about dancing history or scottish history, your rant about the dances was so far off it was laughable. Do you wear the traditional Kilt 8 yrds of cloth or the english invention the modern kilt with straps and buckles, like i said things get changed & refined but it doesnt make it wrong, just different from how it originally was, same with the dances or you just want men dancing equality is here 2 stay

[scottdancer94]

It is not the fling, this is the sword dance.