@bradwjensen When scientists write up research papers, they always cite relevant prior research upon which their work is based. If "Fresco's" city design was graded with the same amount of rigor as a high-school paper, it would have failed for blatant plagiarism.
@axe863 Nobody cares if he used old ideas and technology to come up with this. That has nothing to do with what he's trying to accomplish. He has personally never claimed to have designed any of this general city design. Although, he does redesign many of the buildings, houses, and other PARTS of the city (individually) to his own standards.
@bradwjensen You think it stops with city designs. "His" hypothesis of capitalistic crisis, "his" model of the steady state economy etc. He didnt use ideas, he almost completely ripped them off. Then he used his monopoly power (he copyrighted his pictures of city design and the TVP brand lol) to ban other people..cough cough TZM... from freely spreading "his" material.Also, If Fresco, the genius innovator, says don't build cities until everyone wants a global RBE, it isnt built. lol
@axe863 You're right to say he didn't come up with most of the designs and ideas he uses, but that's not the point. You're hating on him for learning about information and technology, and trying to mix the best of them together to make a better, more sustainable world for all people, and the planet. He doesn't claim to be the 'inventor' of everything he shares. He's just mixing what he's learned and sharing it with everyone, for free. He doesn't own any of it. If you wanted, u could use it now..
VP doesn't have anything to do with originality, is just a project to propose a better social/economic system, they are not artist selling their original ideas.
Did VP invented the maglev? houses, circular cities layouts, no, thats obvious. you are so stupid.
M under Friedman was considered money supply. But it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the federal reserve can "print" all the money it likes - if the credit that it extends does not make it into the private sector then you get no GDP. And so let us say that M (money supply) should be replaced with D (debt in dollars). i think you may be qouty minisky - one thing is obvious about economics - its not a hard science - but mathmatics applied to philosophy - money is created by debt
@Ujamesl978 evrything else - there would be no scarcity - no running factories 40hrs a week or sitting iddle - ithey would run 168 hours a week at the most efficent means possible to assure an abundance
@MrIzzyDizzy Wow, you've already overcome Turing unsolvability.... surely we can alter time and make them work 10^1000^1000 hours a week with negative capital depreciation !!!! Onward to progress, comrades.
@axe863 there is one thing for is certain we have not implemented out best cleanest systems nor can we for profit due to structrual vested interest - see rca vs fm radio - basicaly stifled it for 20 years - bankrupted the inventor who commited suicide in despair - and our current economy is in serious bad shape as is the enviroment - the ideas behind the rbe address all these issues - and more people join everyday
@MrIzzyDizzy Ive wasted too much time commenting on this insanity. You have as much evidence concerning the viability & efficiency of a RBE as a child has of their imaginary friends...which is zero. How about you mature as a person and stop parroting someones unsubstantiated non-sense.
@Ujamesl978 i hope we can be on the same page eventualy - as far as government setting any rates -does not happen - all the worlds national banks are part of a private cartel which sets rates as they see fit - governments borrow from these banks - like in the usa - money is a federal reserve note - ie a private instrument of debt. secondly its not required that anything be taken from any one - in fact thier would be absolutely no profit - and thier would be an abundance of computers and...
@Ujamesl978 No, Hes parroting what Fresco says... interest requires more money printing ==> money =debt==> capitalism collapses because interest eventually causes more debt.
@Ujamesl978 money fails because of interest - so eliminating that could slow its demise - and yes also changing ownership methods is also needed - once you do that though -exchange with or without money becomes meaningless so im not sure what your saying - eliminate ownership and interest and money would be fixed and also pointless - so explain what you see as moneys role in that scenario?
@MrIzzyDizzy "The money-interest-capitalistic fallacy" is ridiculous. Theres person X & Y. X is relatively more efficient at producing corn than Y but lacks a field. They trade off. X pays Y 800 pieces of corn for partaking in a risky illiquid investment and in aggregate corn production is higher and both parties benefit from this real growth. The same thing applies to paying interest. The only time a problem occurs is if people take on negative value projects forever . LOL
@axe863 looks like trade without interest to me - interest is not part of the money supply supose the money sublly is green rocks and there are just 2 and x and y each have 1 - x borrows 1 from y who demands a use fee of 1 (interest) payable tomorrow - the next day x repays 2 . then thats same day he borrows 1 again with the same fee deal - the next day he must default
@MrIzzyDizzy He pays 800 pieces of corn to person Y at time 1. I dont understand why you dont understand this. You think people take on loans with zero or a lower expected return than the interest rate. A higher expected return vs required interest rate means that individuals are providing excess goods/services to the market. Individual X will not take on a loan unless if his expected return adjusted for systematic risk factors is higher than the required interest rate.
@MrIzzyDizzy He pays 800 pieces of corn to person Y at time 1. I dont understand why you dont understand this. You think people take on loans with zero or a lower expected return than the interest rate. A higher expected return vs required interest rate means that individuals are providing excess goods/services to the market. Individual X will not take on a loan unless if his expected return adjusted for systematic risk factors is higher than the required interest rate.
@axe863 i understand it i just reduced the complexity - for illustrative purposes - payments of the sort you define - are just payments - and the growth was achieved though technology or expertise but -it doesnt address money and interest - the bottom line is money comes into existence through loans and fractional banking - interest is not created in the money supply - its masked in the ever expanding money through new loans - but cant last unless we exponetialy increase new loans forever
@MrIzzyDizzy Please dont misuse the word "complexity." Base interest + spread is due to inter-temporal impatience, aversion to systematic risk/uncertainty factors, etc. Real Money supply, not nominal money supply matters. Exponential implies a constant rate of growth..... this is grossly incorrect. Why do you think the interest rate was so low during recessions (even before the Fed existed)?
@MrIzzyDizzy Unless if the money supply tracks real growth, there will be either deflation or inflation. Money supply growth within those bounds causes zero distortions in the real economy. In your green stone model, why are people even getting loans.... they are producing zero real growth.
@MrIzzyDizzy Yes, it is. If individuals create positive NPV projects, it increases the real goods/services in the economy which makes monetary growth non-inflationary. I really have no idea why you think interest on money is such a critical issue.
@MrIzzyDizzy Why did debt levels accelerate under lower interest rates while they relative speaking barely rise or fall under higher ones? This is completely answered in peer reviewed economic research papers but this is completely at variance with the interest-money-capitalistic crisis hypothesis. Money is not debt.If money were debt, how would printing money decrease the real value of debt and starve off debt deflation. So increasing the amount of debt decreases the real effects of debt?
@axe863 printing more money does decrease the value of debt - ie mortgages are paaid with cheaper dolars - if wages keep up with inflation - but of course cheaper dollar repayment doesnt -pay the debt of the economy as a whole - that is an exponetial curve requirning may defaults or bankrupcy(restructure) i think it s clear with fractional reserve banking is how money is created - there is not an argument - monet is created from debt - modern money mechanics explains it -and its a fed document
@MrIzzyDizzy Yeah that's why you shouldnt parrot Fresco or Joseph."Why did debt levels accelerate under lower interest rates while they relative speaking barely rise or fall under higher ones? " "If money were debt, how would printing money decrease the real value of debt and starve off debt deflation. So increasing the amount of debt decreases the real effects of debt? " Answer? Modern money mechanics talks about exogenous money... lol they're not Post Keynesians.
@MrIzzyDizzy Where did I say fractional reserve banking is false? Its funny that people like Milton Friedman who understood that M = mm*MB didnt think interest-monetary capitalistic collapse was a possibility. He did think the Fed could control the money supply ..thus weakening the endogenous nature of the money supply.
@MrIzzyDizzy If Money=Debt, how can increasing its amount reduce the real effects of debt. Unexpected inflation does have redistribution effects on nominally based debt. Obviously, a proper measure of risk is Omega (systemic fragility) adjusted Debt/GDP not the growth of debt. Btw, I cant understand your english."M (money supply) should be replaced with D (debt in dollars)" I dont think that you want to say that. Money should be replaced by debt in terms of money prices. :P
@Ujamesl978 Check out "RBE Concepts Why Are We Not Building Cities 1/2 & 2/2" They claim that the failure of non-global test runs are trivial because they may still be operating within a "microcosm of scarcity" lol Unfalsifiability, much. Ill make a video by next Wednesday.
@MrIzzyDizzy You can just call me a douchebag...theres no reason to sugarcoat what youre trying to say.
"i can see countless unneeded jobs in our current system" ... oh ok please link me to your or TZM's falsifiable model so that I can verify this. Given that TZM is very pro-scientific, you should link me to their vast collection of papers on modeling human psychology, capitalistic collapse, city structure, risk management, optimization techniques, social systems etc.
@axe863 look at at the usdebtclock for a minute theres no doubt its falling apart - as far as unneeded jobs i already listed them - the only reason to have them at all is to maintain and increase consumption - i try not to call people d-bag though i get tired of peoples willfull blindness at times = and i have already expalined the scientific method applied to social concerns - so idk what else to tell ya but good luck fixing this collapse with the same old bs
@MrIzzyDizzy lol Im doing doctoral studies in financial crises (within a complexity framework) and you call me ignorant. "i get tired of peoples willfull blindness at times" I'm blinded by your ignorance. You copy and paste unsubstantiated (zero application of the scientific method to derive its validity) utter nonsense (Luddite fallacy, "interest-money-capitalistic collapse fallacy,"etc). How about you actually have an opinion and not just parrot Fresco's ideas.
@MrIzzyDizzy "as far as unneeded jobs i already listed them - the only reason to have them at all is to maintain and increase consumption" This is a 200 year old + socialist fallacy. I dont think you understand how old TVP economic foundations ... i mean fallacies...are. Hell, Joseph thinks giving people cancer will boost the GDP.... that isnt a broken window fallacy ...its a broken face due to epic face palm fallacy.
@Ujamesl978 testing after implication? who supports? take the 60 story omega garden as 1 of a thousand examples - it can grow food 5 x faster = 15 days for romain lettuce when norm is 75 - it takes less land -1 acre building foot print is equal to 40 acre of normal land use -x 60 floors = 2400 - it uses 1/20 the water - 1/10 the fertilizer - no pesticide - it can be run on clean renewable electricty - can be set up with robotics for no labor - grows year around - its been developed and tested
@MrIzzyDizzy ---Take the proven work of others (I'll just assume its economical ..its irrelevant) ---Use it as proof of a system that relies on n set of impossible conditionals working independently (solution to Turing "unsolvability," zero deviation from pure altruism, exogenous innovation, exogenous reduction of uncertainty/excess complexity, zero negative
@axe863 yes where its relevant take it - take the best ideas available all open resource and no patents - you mombo jombo bs -excess coplexity? - i can see countless unneeded jobs in our current system - 80% are replaceable by cybernetics right now - whole fields of waste like banking and investment and advertising and indurance - 90% of law enforcement - making bombs guns planes tanks and ammo - we have this currently effeicent system where we make shit 10k miles from the customer etc etc
disney borrowed from other like ebeneser howard - no ideas of any importance no matter how revolutionary is entirely without influence - when fresno invented the 1st modular home shown at universal studios -even that idea had a begining some where- all great ideas are just improvements and a resource based economy is much deeper than just inovative architecture and design -something is certain -kids making disney toys in china for no money is the ultimate "free" market - fuck disney
you have fundamentaly missunderstood - the application of the scientific method to social concern - ive looked at your ridicuolus films - what is propsed is that we scientificaly test all methods of social concern - thats the criteria of its inclusion - we use only the methods that produce the most -and prserve the planet the most - to the goal of making all people wants and needs so abundant - that they cost 0 - like air , this can be achieved- we have the means and resources todo it.
@MrIzzyDizzy "we use only the methods that produce the most -and prserve the planet the most - to the goal of making all people wants and needs so abundant - that they cost 0 - like air ,"......... o_0 This statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
Hey you know what I herd cave men invented the wheel... they should sue the human race for trying to inprove on it... they just keep trying to make it better and more efficient, the humans are BUSTED...I've done it !!!
@ZMVPRadio If my design was an almost 100% copy of previous work and I didn't acknowledge the previous designer, I would be in very serious trouble. I will make a second video where it shows that Fresco,also, straight up ripped off technocracy.
Do they claim that RBE will be a dynamic economy, to me it seems that it will be static and the circle city can only accommodate a set population with no variation.
@therhythmicmenace No, they say they'll form another city after X amount of people are in a city structure. Obviously such a rigid structure is inferior to a flexible structure in the face of agglomeration effects. For full agglomeration/diversification effects to be realized, there must be N- ever evolving irregular spatial dynamics competing with other subsystems .... a rigid structure is highly inefficient in an advanced economy.
"Obviously such a rigid structure is inferior to a flexible structure in the face of agglomeration effects."
Cells in the body have a limit to their size. The flexibility of cells in multi-cellular organisms exists as a result of their number and diversity, not their individual size. Also, if one looks carefully at cities which cannot expand into surrounding land due to geographical difficulties in doing so, one sees a trend towards mass transportation as opposed to inefficient sprawl.
@therhythmicmenace I actually simplified it way too much .... I meant to say.... For full agglomeration/diversification effects to be realized, there must be N- ever evolving irregular spatial dynamics competing with other subsystems on multiple time scales structuring on prior structures at varying intensity.... a rigid structure is insanely inefficient in an advanced economy.
There are far greater arguments against TVPs' RBE. Ill make those videos in the future.
its not just a city form it the whole concept of harmony with nature... I dont feel like explaining to you... before you speak do your reseach on all areas ; cristianity, political sciences, the venus project. etc.... otherwise you seem like like your just trying to get attention with an opinion and no intelligence.
All I see here see here are alot of people with an opinion and no education for an intelligent answer( except a few of you and you propably know who you are LOL)
@ZMVPR Do my research in what? Propaganda films and books. How about this .... build a falsifiable model ....publish the TVP RBE model in a peer reviewed journal and get a Nobel Prize.
@ZMVPRadio "All I see here see here are alot of people with an opinion and no education for an intelligent answer( except a few of you and you propably know who you are LOL)"
All of TVP is opinion.... until they actually engage in scientific research. They are currently purely pseudo-scientific.
People laugh to unabashedly venus project, because it has nothing to do. If they were supporting the project. So are idiots not to understand anything of the project.
Energy efficient (not economically efficient )under static conditions (structured for uncertainties and zero capitalistic competition induced diversifying innovation)
And Disney got many ideas from Buckminster Fuller. I'm not as concerned about where ideas originate as I am of what they mean to the possibilities of our future.
@cybermutagen1 Im not ripping on him for coping parts of plans. When one writes a paper, it is ok to include the ideas of others given that one adds a sufficient amount of personal input and one credits their sources.
@axe863 I agree and Disney should credit Fresco. Among futurists, Fresco has the most detailed concepts and that's why I prefer his work over others. Of course one must learn all concepts and use current knowledge to learn what combinations and new additions suit the present.
@cybermutagen1 Some books you might like: The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler and Grunch of Giants by Buckminster Fuller, free at Scribd. com. Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth by Buckminster Fuller and Designing the Future by Jacque Fresco, free at TheVenusProjectDesign. org. Critical Path by Buckminster Fuller can be purchased at Amazon. The Best That Money Can't Buy by Jacque Fresco can be purchased at TheVenusProject. com.
Disney ripped off Fresco but you didn't know that did you. Besides, all ideas come from past knowledge and combinations of past knowledge so no one is truly original.
@cybermutagen1 How exactly did Walt Disney rip off Fresco? The Epcot design existed in 1962. TVP was started in 1975. Unless if you have evidence that the sufficiently similar plans were made public and/or their was a private disclosing of the plans, how can you make such an accusation?
@axe863 Fresco had designs long before 1975. He personally told me that he was asked to meet with Disney and share his ideas for what would become Epcot. He didn't hear from them again and saw they were using his circular city design. Buckminster Fuller also designed a circular-crater city called Old Man River city for Illinois and is also known for his geodesic dome. The circular city idea was not thought of, it was arrived at using the scientific method as the most efficient design.
@cybermutagen1 I dont care what anyone says. I need evidence. Also, please show me the peer reviewed paper that demonstrates that it is the most efficient design under static efficiency and then under dynamic agglomeration effects.
@axe863 Read those books if you want evidence. If you double a sphere's diameter, it will quadruple the floor area and produce eight times the volume.
@cybermutagen1 X personally told me that he was abducted by aliens. You need to think, critically. What you have stated as "evidence" is the lowest form possible. Where are the algorithms for his supercomputer 3000 resource allocator?
@axe863 Geodesic Domes are super-efficient for material usage. The dome framework and interlocking system of triangles, produces the lightest, strongest, free-span self-supporting structure possible. Enclosing space with a minimum of surface area requires fewer materials for construction, resulting in a most energy-efficient and economical building system. In spite of its simplicity, geodesic domes are immensely strong and stable.
@cybermutagen1 The future will not consist of centrally planned rigid draconian structures (w/ minimal evolvability of the structure) but rather those which are formed with dynamically optimal trade-offs to ensure heterogeneity of failure thresholds and dynamic agglomeration effects.
@axe863 You obviously have not research The Venus Project in depth. It isn't central planning, it's arriving at decisions using the scientific method. Also, cities are designed w/ maximum evolvability of structure because the cities we design today will be a straight-jacket to the kids of the future, they'll design their own cities with increased technical knowledge. The only thing constant is change and our cities must be able to constantly change.
@cybermutagen1 Show me the peer reviewed papers. Where the hell are they.... link me them right now... Those designs are top down not a bottom up process. "The only thing constant is change and our cities must be able to constantly change. " Great ..then Fresco should burn all his drawings because theyre not formed from bottom up processes.
@axe863 Those designs were arrived at. Show me better designs and I will accept them. Even Fresco says they are extrapolations. It's the approach that is important. Designs must be based on the scientific method, not opinions. Show me a better city design please.
@cybermutagen1 Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????
@axe863 I love it! You want peer reviewed papers, from who? Hardly any establishment will admit our cities are outdated, so who's doing the science on this besides people like Fresco?
@axe863 lol you nailed it! I'm sure this conspiracy will be in Jesse Ventura's next t.v. episode lol The whole idea is that our problems today are not political, they are technical. 1000's of years of agriculture society, a mere 300 years of industrial society and now within decades the third wave will unfold. Like it or not, the future can't be stopped. Also, a test city would need to be built and put to test and modified with all relevant fields of knowledge working holistically together.
@cybermutagen1 I was jking. You demonstrate zero peer reviewed papers, youre telling me to go read some book and Fresco said he'd make video propaganda before he tries to build a city ... lol you guys sound like young earth creationists.
@axe863 Oh please, I am starting to get sick of people who weren't paying attention when watching the venus project and draw conclusions based on faulty observations. Fresco said that the Venus Project as a whole has never been tried before. Sure there were ideas before, but do you see a circular city anywhere on the planet?
@axe863 Furthermore: sure it has to be before-known aspects of the city so that it can be built with existing technology otherwise it would not be executable. You can't expect him to plan having "teleportation" or something in his city designs which hasn't been invented yet...
And as an end, Fresco himself admited that he is using technology that we already know of to construct a city, circular design has nothing to do of copying it from somewhere else its just the most logical form!
@Beef1188 Teleportation is more likely than solving problems which suffer from the kind of computational infeasbility that he is proposing. Fresco knows all.... hes above the scientific method... he doesnt need to submit detailed schematics to have them tested for risk adjusted efficiency (on multiple levels)... he knows ahead of time that he is correct.
TVPers: TVP science is our savior but Fresco is our god. Fresco > scientific method.
@axe863 Well you are just about one of the 10% of the people that are more concerned about the man than the idea the man carries. He's not some supergenius, you can't expect him to salve all of the worlds problems himself.
Barely now, when the venus project got some attention, is he beginning to build a global database of the necesary science to get the thing going. What he already knows he already explained it you just couldn't understand it.
@Beef1188 Oh ok... please link me to some peer reviewed research papers that have withstood the scrutiny of repeated scientific testing. The Venus Project will supposedly be run by the scientific method and yet it is being run the exact opposite way today.
"Oh ok... please link me to some peer reviewed research papers that have withstood the scrutiny of repeated scientific testing. The Venus Project will supposedly be run by the scientific method and yet it is being run the exact opposite way today."
A scientific peer-review system is not necessary for the scientific method. However, it is a tool often deployed by scientists so they can collaborate effectively with each other, which facilitates the scientific method.
@Beef1188 I said nothing about Fresco as a person. I just loled at how his word transcends the scientific method. Not only are TVPers economic illiterates, they are also illiterates with respect to computer and network science. Please explain how heavy tailed networks with systemic unstructured for uncertainties and potentially homogeneous failure thresholds fully coupled under a error sensitive priceless global RM...is a good thing? A less extreme version of this caused the financial crisis
@axe863 Automated multiplex machinery with on-demand production to prevent overruns and shortages.
You propably failed to notice but we already have such machinery in existence. As an example porsche produces some of their cars only as they are ordered, and there are many more examples of how this is used ALREADY in the world.
The difference would only be that almost everything (not food or similar) will be produced this way and also build to last a long time to conserve world resources.
@Beef1188 Btw, operational risk usually possesses very low volatility with very heavy kurtosis.The aforementioned process is an extreme version of the aforementioned risk. The subsystem usually operates with low codependency to others. TVP design exhibits extremely high systemic fragility... infinite costless substitution is impossible, the system is only robust to design for uncertainties and high synchronization/low micro-fragility induces high macro-instability.
@axe863 Not if you have multiple redundancies. If the system suficiently redundant and easily repairable then the risk could be minimized.
Hehe, don't criticize TVP about fragility, the stock market of the existing system is a small building, no bigger than a single apartment block and look what effects it had on the world itself.
What we have here and now is the system that you described!
@Beef1188 How exactly does the system trade-off between agents heterogeneous subjectively derived path dependent risk/uncertainty preferences against their heterogeneous multi-frequency risk/uncertainty exposures and sufficient costly multiple redundancies. Also, a top down radical complex system has a much higher "uncertainty space" than a bottom up radical CS. Lower codependency of fragile components and the heterogeneous evolution of n components to uncertainty shocks accomplishes this.
Say the first city is built and we have a global tracking system which monitors the weather and providing irrigation as based on the fact wether it will rain or not. Say a weather satellite fails and says it will rain like crazy for the next two weeks. The tracking supercomputer will be capable of determining wether a satellite in this example may be failing and immediately reroute other satellites to see if its true. If that satellite failed then it is ostricized, restoring normality.
@Beef1188 Weather is highly nonlinear and stochastic. Even if it were purely deterministic, it is unpredictable due to extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. Infinitesimal alterations produce fundamentally different dynamics. One can have infinite computing power and not come any closer to predicting weather.
@axe863 It was just an example. Same could be applied for a vertical hydroponics farm, a failing sensor could easily keep saying that there is too much water in a raft tank but there would be more than one. The failing sensor could be ostricized, and monitoring personnel could be alerted to replace it.
It is unfortunate you are unable to grasp the true intricaties of such a feat. But I don't blame you, I blame the lack of education that was made awailable to you... by the current system.
@Beef1188 Dunning Kruger effect, much? Youre so ignorant (yet so certain) on this subject that you cant even understand how powerfully I destroyed the TVP.
@axe863 You wanted evidence- I gave you common knowledge, you wanted practical aplications- i gave them to you.
What else do you want? You want it clean? You don't want no trouble? I don't support TVP in the way that I would sell my soul to this guy, what I belive in is in this video:
watch?v=EsjGDPxq_DE&feature=related
Pay attention to the last words he said. TVP cities to me are definetely better than new york, and they are executable and functional.
@Beef1188 For starters, I want a mathematical proof of the feasibility of optimizing resources given heterogeneous dynamic subjective preferences with the existence of fundamental uncertainty without a price system.
Thanks for linking me to a video where they talk about generalities and not a peer reviewed paper on TVP.
@axe863 So you want me to do the work for you? connect you from A to B to C because I went against your perfect little world? Lets do this in private chat, there isn't enough space here and we are starting to spam the video. Wait for the message there.
@axe863 You have to test it out before you can say anything at all. Surely the city would be more efficient (the circle design), but would it work on a large scale? ummmmm... Everything can't be debunked by theoretical science, otherwise we wouldn't have planes today. If you don't have a price system maybe you can count dependent on the amount of substances and energy, I don't know... there must be some way... Hey! wasn't Nasa going to plant out resource detectors, how will they value the them?
@Watchdawg It would be more static energy efficient. It would actually be dynamic energy inefficient even though, the goal of TVP is the same as technocracy, it wants to operate on an energy theory of value. Why? Because its structural rigidity(macro µ) disallows dynamic agglomeration effects. The components have predetermined rigid functionals. A better system maximizes innovative potential discounted by systemic fragility.
@Beef1188 "Pay attention to the last words he said. TVP to me are definetely better than new york, and they are executable and functional." Authority based belief is not how science works. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the way science works. Harold Camping actually provided his formula for his end time prediction and it failed the test. Harold Camping is a better scientist than ...... you know where Im going with this.....
"Weather is highly nonlinear and stochastic. Even if it were purely deterministic, it is unpredictable due to extreme sensitivity to initial conditions."
There is a gray area between predictability and unpredictability. Of course, no one can be 100% certain of something such as the weather. Weather is highly unpredictable, and yet it is somewhat predictable. Is my statement a contradiction? No it is not. If you disagree, you probably didn't learn the nuance of those terms very well.
@axe863 When you look at it in more detail then you see there is no trade-off, because similar technology is already in effect. Take large city traffic light control system for example. It is just as complex and a faliure would be equally devastating, causing hundreds of traffic accidens, possibly killing thousands.
Don't be fooled by propaganda my friend. Certain aspects of the current system are just as fragile as a global tracking system would be but they still work, don't they?
@Beef1188 Propaganda.... How dare you!!! Your inability to comprehend sound logic doesn't invalidate my arguments. I will take great pleasure in de-converting TVPers. I will do this not with video propaganda/pretty pictures with ZERO peer reviewed concepts like Fresco but with sound arguments from complex systems theory, compute science, nonlinear mathematics and economic theory.
@axe863 I am a fully educated computer engineer, where you see caos in the form of 10100 i see mathematical perfection.
And if I, who makes this stuff, can say it can be done, you should listen. The technology TVP would implement ALREADY EXISTS, but you take it so much for granted you just can't see it out there. Traffic control systems, stock market supercomputers etc. are just as fragile. If NORAD had just a false sitings glitch, then "the big ones" would nuke each other to pieces.
@Beef1188 When did I say that they didn't suffer from a degree of fragility. In fact , I stated that the financial crisis was partly induced due to high systemic fragility. I'm a complexity scientist/mathematician and I know (with high probability) what you're saying is incorrect about TVP. Nonetheless,my arguments are true or false independent my level of expertise. Btw, your argument from authority is a logical fallacy.
@Beef1188 A top down constructed radical highly interconnected system with multiple redundancies with micro-resilience is a fundamentally inferior system to one which is a bottom up radical sufficiently interconnected system with micro-fragility. This is especially the case when agents structure on the artificial (perceived) stability of the system. How does one dynamically tradeoff to maximize risk adjusted efficiency for such complex risk preferences in TVP? Show me the equations...
"A top down constructed radical highly interconnected system with multiple redundancies with micro-resilience is a fundamentally inferior system to one which is a bottom up radical sufficiently interconnected system with micro-fragility."
Physical reality is not an either-or proposition. Example: The infrastructure for supporting online social networks is built from the top-down, with built-in redundancies, while users feeding in input develop the social networks from the bottom-up.
"how do you propose to maximize risk adjusted utility without prices?"
As long as utility is defined only quantitatively, there is no possibility of maximizing risk-adjusted utility without prices.
Once we can define a non-quantitative definition of risk-adjusted utility, only then you should consider it possible to properly formalize a way of maximizing risk-adjusted utility without prices. The problem is that this "utility" must be something "felt" yet which cannot be measured.
continued: "The problem is that this "utility" must be something "felt" yet which cannot be measured." Here I assume that "measure" refers to the observation of a scalar quantity, which qualitative utility cannot be. Although qualitative utility cannot be quantified, it can be categorized. The categorization scheme can consist of a combination of ordered and unordered category sets. The reality to me seems that an intelligence can do this pre-consciously, whereas a draconian system cannot.
@kmarinas86 Individuals subjectively construct heuristics to deal with excessive computational intensity. This is how an individual who would take billions of years to effectively maximize his/her own subjective utility can enter and leave a store of a few thousand goods in 40 minutes. This adds another layer that is un-knownable under a zero price non-capitalistic system.
When efforts required go beyond the comfort of voluntary self-directedness, the price system is unavoidable. Considering the effort needed for a comfortable standard of living, you cannot get rid of the price system prior to full automation.
Our economy needs the price system for the time being simply because the very deep automation needed for a higher-standard of living "100% gift economy" simply does not exist yet. Therefore, I cannot see a reason for eliminating prices immediately.
@kmarinas86 Regardless of what the Austrians say, even New Classicals dont utilize cardinal utility .so this is a mute point......Btw,why are you saying this? This much more negative to your position than mine. If its unquantifiable on a higher scale, this only makes a price system with local actions under irreducible dynamics more critical, not less.
I do not live alone, and I understand that most interactions in a house do not involve exchanging currency. When the cost of doing things is low enough, I do not have to pay or be paid to get certain things done, such as having the dishes washed, cooking dinner, etc.. What I do or not do inside the house is based on qualitative cost vs. qualitative benefit. Currently what I do outside is based on price, because it is more expensive, requiring more non-volunteer labor.
@kmarinas86 You are not required to interact with individuals by exchanging currency. You do it because you are not relatively more efficient at all things (this is an impossibility by the way). You can barter if you want, its just very inefficient. Labor carries dis-utility. This is the reason why dynamic adjustment will not be undertaken when consumption levels are fixed regardless of individuals responses.
"You can barter if you want, its just very inefficient."
Barter can only support very short supply chains, and it works only in very tight-knit networks, such as families or villages. Money is needed when the supply chain is long. That is why we have money.
A money-less society can only work if the supply chain length is effectively zero. In other words, it requires on-site production with no seller, just a consumer. Prior to this occurring, full automation must be generously donated.
@Beef1188 The city designs, although severely draconian and possessing a high degree of systemic fragility, are not my biggest concerns. Computational infeasibility ( "Hard" and "Soft") and the lack of endogenously induced diversifying innovation are my greatest concerns
@axe863 Fragility? You REALLY aren't paying attention. The structures fresco designed are dome-based, and the dome is one of the sturdyest structures known to man, even stronger than the pyramid.
@axe863 And what im trying to say is that they are not inferior. They are the result of years of commuting research by valid scientistists determining that not only it would be an effective method of transportation, in conjunction with a circular object design it would also constitute the ultimate solution in mass transit.
And this does not just come from Venus Project or disneyland. Same transit topological concepts are also present in japanese designs such as sky city or pyramid city.
@Beef1188 Provide peer reviewed papers or leave. You say an untested undisclosed system with magical algorithms can solve all the worlds problems. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. TVP magical algorithms require mathematical proofs. TVP provides neither scientific evidence nor mathematical proofs.....absolutely nothing. Zip...nothing....nada. This is beyond embarrassing.
"Im talking about the cities inferior network topology"
There is a classification scheme for network topologies, which I am sure you are aware of. What you seem to not be aware of is that any real city will have features of more than one type of type of network topology. Any real city possesses network topologies -plural. Combinations of these (> 1) can be confined under the singular notion of a "hybrid topology".
@kmarinas86 I was talking about severe tail risk given that these are weighted degree- heterogeneous networks that are highly weighted interconnections with other city structures that all interconnected with a GRM system.... & they seem (sorry I dont usually do my analysis by looking at pretty drawings ..so this is only a superficial analysis) H.O.T systems with sufficiently homogeneous failure thresholds and they have rigid structures==> minimal evolvability of the macro-structure
"H.O.T systems with sufficiently homogeneous failure thresholds and they have rigid structures==> minimal evolvability of the macro-structure"
If the aim is to reduce failures, one of the consequences of that aim can be the maturity of the evolutionary process, a maturity that can lead to a punctuated equilibrium in the development of ubiquitous architecture. Reduced evolvability is due to adaptations sufficing for the present conditions. Here, adaptation can be slow, yet sufficient.
@kmarinas86 Reduced evolvability can be induced by prolonged illusory stability ==> aka an evolutionary dynamic towards "hyper-sensitivity" to unstructured for fluctuations... so congrats on promoting a system that creates such heavy tailed dynamics that will led to higher systemic fragility. Under an RBE, consumption levels are fixed regardless of agents response to necessary dynamic adjustments.... so yeah.. I really dont understand why youre trying to hurt your own side .
So, axe, do you think the outcome of a scientific paper might be that cities won't be designed according to their geographical locations? Do you think that such a paper might also conclude that all cities will use the circular scheme?
Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????
cybermutagen1 said: "Geodesic Domes are super-efficient for material usage...In spite of its simplicity, geodesic domes are immensely strong and stable."
"The future will not consist of centrally planned rigid draconian structures (w/ minimal evolvability of the structure)"
Rigidity is neither a synonym for stability nor strength. Flexibility, stability, strength, as well as user-customizability, can be engineered into the same structure.
@kmarinas86 Do you even know what agglomeration effects even mean? I can come up with a much more dynamically efficient design. Multiple cores (Fresco's increasing densification model would be a logistical nightmare and not to mention that its fantastic for epidemics due to these extremely critical nodes within a city structure being interconnected with others), allowance for irregular spatial dependencies (no pretty circles, agglomeration & evolving dynamics induce increasing returns to scale)
@kmarinas86 A GRM system with single core city structures is the most Tail risk adjusted inferior system that I can think of. How can you even derive marginal utility without prices? I want an actual proof .....not oh yeah we get that covered.
@axe863 The aerodynamic shape withstands powerful external pressure, such as wind, snow load and earthquakes. Its astounding ability has been tested to withstand five times more stress than required by building codes.Geodesic Dome structures are extremely energy-efficient. Air circulates freely in a dome without obstruction or ceiling level heat build-up. The ideal energy flow shape means that the geodesic dome uses 30 to 50 per cent less energy to heat and cool than a conventional home.
@axe863 There is also a third less exposed surface area to heat and cool than a conventional box structure, which increases efficiency again. Because of the many identical parts the basic shell is very light, they can be erected very quickly without any specialised equipment.
"Dynamic innovation not the areas/volumes of shapes are important. I cant believe you said that."
If you were an automotive engineer you wouldn't be so picky. Automotive engineers of today compete in both form and function. Innovative features such as satellite navigation, parking assist, and cruise control do not reduce the importance of designing proper structures for protecting passengers, lowering air resistance, and increasing capacity for storage and towing.
@cybermutagen1 TVP is also a ripoff of technocracy. What you have just said is static energy based optimization. This is exactly what technocracy proposes.
@axe863 TVP differs socially from technocracy. Also, I was just giving you one example of the scientific efficiencies of dome structures. I can only have a meaningful conversation with you if you've done your homework. Let me guess, the dog ate it. Go read a lot more books and get back to me.
@cybermutagen1 Show me how the scientific method derived Frescos plans. Show me the peer reviewed papers. You have absolutely nothing but pretty pictures and systems that are efficient assuming static conditions.
@cybermutagen1 Exactly, nothing is truly original. Everything can be tracked back into history, it's just a shame people actually think they come up with something new and then call other people copycats. When you read history books of technology it clearly says that people took ideas from each other and slightly updated it, then another person came and did the same.
@Watchdawg Disney didnt rip off Fresco. This is from the early 60's, Fresco started TVP in the mid 70's. Copying to a degree is fine. Taking everything from the Epcot design, sticking on a socialist utopia with an imaginary god-like computer and calling it your design is straight up BS.
@axe863 You don't know for certain whether they ripped him off or not. TVP might have started in the mid 70's but he came up with the ideas way back. Even if he copied it and changed it, so what? his version still looks better than the disney version. Maybe I will copy it some day and make my own changes to it, who knows? There is nothing wrong with updating (supposedly) other people's ideas.
@Watchdawg Disney's design was revealed in the early 60's. If a company X comes out with a car in 1960 and company Y comes out with the same car in 1970 with different headlights, which one do you think will be sued for ripping off the other.
Its the same exact design, He didnt take a few characteristic elements of it , he straight up ripped it off.
I wonder who all worked on this Epcot design idea, and where they got some of their ideas from.
bradwjensen 3 weeks ago
@bradwjensen When scientists write up research papers, they always cite relevant prior research upon which their work is based. If "Fresco's" city design was graded with the same amount of rigor as a high-school paper, it would have failed for blatant plagiarism.
axe863 2 weeks ago
@axe863 Nobody cares if he used old ideas and technology to come up with this. That has nothing to do with what he's trying to accomplish. He has personally never claimed to have designed any of this general city design. Although, he does redesign many of the buildings, houses, and other PARTS of the city (individually) to his own standards.
bradwjensen 2 weeks ago
@bradwjensen You think it stops with city designs. "His" hypothesis of capitalistic crisis, "his" model of the steady state economy etc. He didnt use ideas, he almost completely ripped them off. Then he used his monopoly power (he copyrighted his pictures of city design and the TVP brand lol) to ban other people..cough cough TZM... from freely spreading "his" material.Also, If Fresco, the genius innovator, says don't build cities until everyone wants a global RBE, it isnt built. lol
axe863 2 weeks ago
@axe863 You're right to say he didn't come up with most of the designs and ideas he uses, but that's not the point. You're hating on him for learning about information and technology, and trying to mix the best of them together to make a better, more sustainable world for all people, and the planet. He doesn't claim to be the 'inventor' of everything he shares. He's just mixing what he's learned and sharing it with everyone, for free. He doesn't own any of it. If you wanted, u could use it now..
bradwjensen 2 weeks ago
lol plagiarism
fountainherz 3 weeks ago
@axe863 you are a poor troll man,
VP doesn't have anything to do with originality, is just a project to propose a better social/economic system, they are not artist selling their original ideas.
Did VP invented the maglev? houses, circular cities layouts, no, thats obvious. you are so stupid.
agustinbs 1 month ago
Your are crazy because you whant. What ironic take things seriously in joke,
Play671 4 months ago
@Play671 What are you saying?
axe863 4 months ago
/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8 a simple explanation of fractional reserve - banking money as debt
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
M under Friedman was considered money supply. But it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the federal reserve can "print" all the money it likes - if the credit that it extends does not make it into the private sector then you get no GDP. And so let us say that M (money supply) should be replaced with D (debt in dollars). i think you may be qouty minisky - one thing is obvious about economics - its not a hard science - but mathmatics applied to philosophy - money is created by debt
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 evrything else - there would be no scarcity - no running factories 40hrs a week or sitting iddle - ithey would run 168 hours a week at the most efficent means possible to assure an abundance
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Wow, you've already overcome Turing unsolvability.... surely we can alter time and make them work 10^1000^1000 hours a week with negative capital depreciation !!!! Onward to progress, comrades.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 there is one thing for is certain we have not implemented out best cleanest systems nor can we for profit due to structrual vested interest - see rca vs fm radio - basicaly stifled it for 20 years - bankrupted the inventor who commited suicide in despair - and our current economy is in serious bad shape as is the enviroment - the ideas behind the rbe address all these issues - and more people join everyday
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Ive wasted too much time commenting on this insanity. You have as much evidence concerning the viability & efficiency of a RBE as a child has of their imaginary friends...which is zero. How about you mature as a person and stop parroting someones unsubstantiated non-sense.
axe863 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 i hope we can be on the same page eventualy - as far as government setting any rates -does not happen - all the worlds national banks are part of a private cartel which sets rates as they see fit - governments borrow from these banks - like in the usa - money is a federal reserve note - ie a private instrument of debt. secondly its not required that anything be taken from any one - in fact thier would be absolutely no profit - and thier would be an abundance of computers and...
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 No, Hes parroting what Fresco says... interest requires more money printing ==> money =debt==> capitalism collapses because interest eventually causes more debt.
axe863 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 money fails because of interest - so eliminating that could slow its demise - and yes also changing ownership methods is also needed - once you do that though -exchange with or without money becomes meaningless so im not sure what your saying - eliminate ownership and interest and money would be fixed and also pointless - so explain what you see as moneys role in that scenario?
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy "The money-interest-capitalistic fallacy" is ridiculous. Theres person X & Y. X is relatively more efficient at producing corn than Y but lacks a field. They trade off. X pays Y 800 pieces of corn for partaking in a risky illiquid investment and in aggregate corn production is higher and both parties benefit from this real growth. The same thing applies to paying interest. The only time a problem occurs is if people take on negative value projects forever . LOL
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 looks like trade without interest to me - interest is not part of the money supply supose the money sublly is green rocks and there are just 2 and x and y each have 1 - x borrows 1 from y who demands a use fee of 1 (interest) payable tomorrow - the next day x repays 2 . then thats same day he borrows 1 again with the same fee deal - the next day he must default
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy He pays 800 pieces of corn to person Y at time 1. I dont understand why you dont understand this. You think people take on loans with zero or a lower expected return than the interest rate. A higher expected return vs required interest rate means that individuals are providing excess goods/services to the market. Individual X will not take on a loan unless if his expected return adjusted for systematic risk factors is higher than the required interest rate.
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy He pays 800 pieces of corn to person Y at time 1. I dont understand why you dont understand this. You think people take on loans with zero or a lower expected return than the interest rate. A higher expected return vs required interest rate means that individuals are providing excess goods/services to the market. Individual X will not take on a loan unless if his expected return adjusted for systematic risk factors is higher than the required interest rate.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 i understand it i just reduced the complexity - for illustrative purposes - payments of the sort you define - are just payments - and the growth was achieved though technology or expertise but -it doesnt address money and interest - the bottom line is money comes into existence through loans and fractional banking - interest is not created in the money supply - its masked in the ever expanding money through new loans - but cant last unless we exponetialy increase new loans forever
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Please dont misuse the word "complexity." Base interest + spread is due to inter-temporal impatience, aversion to systematic risk/uncertainty factors, etc. Real Money supply, not nominal money supply matters. Exponential implies a constant rate of growth..... this is grossly incorrect. Why do you think the interest rate was so low during recessions (even before the Fed existed)?
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Unless if the money supply tracks real growth, there will be either deflation or inflation. Money supply growth within those bounds causes zero distortions in the real economy. In your green stone model, why are people even getting loans.... they are producing zero real growth.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 i dont care why they get loans - god or bad reasons are not relevant to the fact that interest doesnt exist in the money supply
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Yes, it is. If individuals create positive NPV projects, it increases the real goods/services in the economy which makes monetary growth non-inflationary. I really have no idea why you think interest on money is such a critical issue.
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Why did debt levels accelerate under lower interest rates while they relative speaking barely rise or fall under higher ones? This is completely answered in peer reviewed economic research papers but this is completely at variance with the interest-money-capitalistic crisis hypothesis. Money is not debt.If money were debt, how would printing money decrease the real value of debt and starve off debt deflation. So increasing the amount of debt decreases the real effects of debt?
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 printing more money does decrease the value of debt - ie mortgages are paaid with cheaper dolars - if wages keep up with inflation - but of course cheaper dollar repayment doesnt -pay the debt of the economy as a whole - that is an exponetial curve requirning may defaults or bankrupcy(restructure) i think it s clear with fractional reserve banking is how money is created - there is not an argument - monet is created from debt - modern money mechanics explains it -and its a fed document
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Yeah that's why you shouldnt parrot Fresco or Joseph."Why did debt levels accelerate under lower interest rates while they relative speaking barely rise or fall under higher ones? " "If money were debt, how would printing money decrease the real value of debt and starve off debt deflation. So increasing the amount of debt decreases the real effects of debt? " Answer? Modern money mechanics talks about exogenous money... lol they're not Post Keynesians.
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Where did I say fractional reserve banking is false? Its funny that people like Milton Friedman who understood that M = mm*MB didnt think interest-monetary capitalistic collapse was a possibility. He did think the Fed could control the money supply ..thus weakening the endogenous nature of the money supply.
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy If Money=Debt, how can increasing its amount reduce the real effects of debt. Unexpected inflation does have redistribution effects on nominally based debt. Obviously, a proper measure of risk is Omega (systemic fragility) adjusted Debt/GDP not the growth of debt. Btw, I cant understand your english."M (money supply) should be replaced with D (debt in dollars)" I dont think that you want to say that. Money should be replaced by debt in terms of money prices. :P
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy It should be painfully obvious to you that money is in your construction, partially fiat.
axe863 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 Check out "RBE Concepts Why Are We Not Building Cities 1/2 & 2/2" They claim that the failure of non-global test runs are trivial because they may still be operating within a "microcosm of scarcity" lol Unfalsifiability, much. Ill make a video by next Wednesday.
axe863 5 months ago
why dont you learn something about what your trying to critique - fricken brain washed d-bag capitalist slave
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy You can just call me a douchebag...theres no reason to sugarcoat what youre trying to say.
"i can see countless unneeded jobs in our current system" ... oh ok please link me to your or TZM's falsifiable model so that I can verify this. Given that TZM is very pro-scientific, you should link me to their vast collection of papers on modeling human psychology, capitalistic collapse, city structure, risk management, optimization techniques, social systems etc.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 look at at the usdebtclock for a minute theres no doubt its falling apart - as far as unneeded jobs i already listed them - the only reason to have them at all is to maintain and increase consumption - i try not to call people d-bag though i get tired of peoples willfull blindness at times = and i have already expalined the scientific method applied to social concerns - so idk what else to tell ya but good luck fixing this collapse with the same old bs
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy lol Im doing doctoral studies in financial crises (within a complexity framework) and you call me ignorant. "i get tired of peoples willfull blindness at times" I'm blinded by your ignorance. You copy and paste unsubstantiated (zero application of the scientific method to derive its validity) utter nonsense (Luddite fallacy, "interest-money-capitalistic collapse fallacy,"etc). How about you actually have an opinion and not just parrot Fresco's ideas.
axe863 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy "as far as unneeded jobs i already listed them - the only reason to have them at all is to maintain and increase consumption" This is a 200 year old + socialist fallacy. I dont think you understand how old TVP economic foundations ... i mean fallacies...are. Hell, Joseph thinks giving people cancer will boost the GDP.... that isnt a broken window fallacy ...its a broken face due to epic face palm fallacy.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 /watch?v=rNJiF6Xsb3Q - joseph is eloquent here as almost always - follow along rewind and contemplate
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy I ask for science, you give me an interview. Goodbye.
axe863 5 months ago
@Ujamesl978 testing after implication? who supports? take the 60 story omega garden as 1 of a thousand examples - it can grow food 5 x faster = 15 days for romain lettuce when norm is 75 - it takes less land -1 acre building foot print is equal to 40 acre of normal land use -x 60 floors = 2400 - it uses 1/20 the water - 1/10 the fertilizer - no pesticide - it can be run on clean renewable electricty - can be set up with robotics for no labor - grows year around - its been developed and tested
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy ---Take the proven work of others (I'll just assume its economical ..its irrelevant) ---Use it as proof of a system that relies on n set of impossible conditionals working independently (solution to Turing "unsolvability," zero deviation from pure altruism, exogenous innovation, exogenous reduction of uncertainty/excess complexity, zero negative
externalization due to a zero price system, etc
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 yes where its relevant take it - take the best ideas available all open resource and no patents - you mombo jombo bs -excess coplexity? - i can see countless unneeded jobs in our current system - 80% are replaceable by cybernetics right now - whole fields of waste like banking and investment and advertising and indurance - 90% of law enforcement - making bombs guns planes tanks and ammo - we have this currently effeicent system where we make shit 10k miles from the customer etc etc
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy Is Non-equilibrium thermodynamics also mumbo jumbo because you don't understand it lol
axe863 5 months ago
disney borrowed from other like ebeneser howard - no ideas of any importance no matter how revolutionary is entirely without influence - when fresno invented the 1st modular home shown at universal studios -even that idea had a begining some where- all great ideas are just improvements and a resource based economy is much deeper than just inovative architecture and design -something is certain -kids making disney toys in china for no money is the ultimate "free" market - fuck disney
MrIzzyDizzy 5 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy
"disney borrowed from other like ebeneser howard - no ideas of any importance no matter how revolutionary is entirely without influence"
You sir have common sense. Good Job!
kmarinas86 5 months ago
you have fundamentaly missunderstood - the application of the scientific method to social concern - ive looked at your ridicuolus films - what is propsed is that we scientificaly test all methods of social concern - thats the criteria of its inclusion - we use only the methods that produce the most -and prserve the planet the most - to the goal of making all people wants and needs so abundant - that they cost 0 - like air , this can be achieved- we have the means and resources todo it.
MrIzzyDizzy 6 months ago
@MrIzzyDizzy "we use only the methods that produce the most -and prserve the planet the most - to the goal of making all people wants and needs so abundant - that they cost 0 - like air ,"......... o_0 This statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
axe863 6 months ago
Thunderbirds a are go!
watch?v=bgx1gBnYUtQ&feature=related
therhythmicmenace 7 months ago
Hey you know what I herd cave men invented the wheel... they should sue the human race for trying to inprove on it... they just keep trying to make it better and more efficient, the humans are BUSTED...I've done it !!!
COME ON PEOPLE ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!??
ZMVPRadio 7 months ago
@ZMVPRadio If my design was an almost 100% copy of previous work and I didn't acknowledge the previous designer, I would be in very serious trouble. I will make a second video where it shows that Fresco,also, straight up ripped off technocracy.
axe863 7 months ago
@ZMVPRadio
How can you improve on a circle, its either a circle or its not.
therhythmicmenace 7 months ago
@therhythmicmenace Plus... a circle is an extraordinarily primitive structure in a dynamic economy.
axe863 6 months ago
@axe863
Do they claim that RBE will be a dynamic economy, to me it seems that it will be static and the circle city can only accommodate a set population with no variation.
therhythmicmenace 6 months ago
@therhythmicmenace No, they say they'll form another city after X amount of people are in a city structure. Obviously such a rigid structure is inferior to a flexible structure in the face of agglomeration effects. For full agglomeration/diversification effects to be realized, there must be N- ever evolving irregular spatial dynamics competing with other subsystems .... a rigid structure is highly inefficient in an advanced economy.
axe863 6 months ago
@axe863
"Obviously such a rigid structure is inferior to a flexible structure in the face of agglomeration effects."
Cells in the body have a limit to their size. The flexibility of cells in multi-cellular organisms exists as a result of their number and diversity, not their individual size. Also, if one looks carefully at cities which cannot expand into surrounding land due to geographical difficulties in doing so, one sees a trend towards mass transportation as opposed to inefficient sprawl.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@therhythmicmenace I actually simplified it way too much .... I meant to say.... For full agglomeration/diversification effects to be realized, there must be N- ever evolving irregular spatial dynamics competing with other subsystems on multiple time scales structuring on prior structures at varying intensity.... a rigid structure is insanely inefficient in an advanced economy.
There are far greater arguments against TVPs' RBE. Ill make those videos in the future.
axe863 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@axe863
"Plus... a circle is an extraordinarily primitive structure in a dynamic economy."
A square isn't more primitive?
Not triangles?
kmarinas86 5 months ago
its not just a city form it the whole concept of harmony with nature... I dont feel like explaining to you... before you speak do your reseach on all areas ; cristianity, political sciences, the venus project. etc.... otherwise you seem like like your just trying to get attention with an opinion and no intelligence.
All I see here see here are alot of people with an opinion and no education for an intelligent answer( except a few of you and you propably know who you are LOL)
ZMVPRadio 7 months ago
@ZMVPR Do my research in what? Propaganda films and books. How about this .... build a falsifiable model ....publish the TVP RBE model in a peer reviewed journal and get a Nobel Prize.
axe863 7 months ago
@ZMVPRadio "All I see here see here are alot of people with an opinion and no education for an intelligent answer( except a few of you and you propably know who you are LOL)"
All of TVP is opinion.... until they actually engage in scientific research. They are currently purely pseudo-scientific.
axe863 7 months ago
Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see TVP zombies are still defending it after this compelling evidence.
This video should be renamed;
TVP - Busted
therhythmicmenace 7 months ago
Comment removed
ZMVPRadio 7 months ago
@ZMVPRadio
Laugh out Loud, I have been doing my research for a while now, anybody with half a brain can see your whole plan is total bullsh1t.
Anybody who is not totally freaked out at the thought of a super computer controlling resources is so stupid they're dangerous.
Your utopia (the can never be a utopia, its impossible in our current spiritual immaturity) stinks of brave new world.
therhythmicmenace 7 months ago
People laugh to unabashedly venus project, because it has nothing to do. If they were supporting the project. So are idiots not to understand anything of the project.
Play671 8 months ago
lol I meant Turing award.
axe863 9 months ago
Energy efficient (not economically efficient )under static conditions (structured for uncertainties and zero capitalistic competition induced diversifying innovation)
axe863 9 months ago
I have a challenge for axe863: Make an original video of some of your original ideas.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
And Disney got many ideas from Buckminster Fuller. I'm not as concerned about where ideas originate as I am of what they mean to the possibilities of our future.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Im not ripping on him for coping parts of plans. When one writes a paper, it is ok to include the ideas of others given that one adds a sufficient amount of personal input and one credits their sources.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 I agree and Disney should credit Fresco. Among futurists, Fresco has the most detailed concepts and that's why I prefer his work over others. Of course one must learn all concepts and use current knowledge to learn what combinations and new additions suit the present.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Some books you might like: The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler and Grunch of Giants by Buckminster Fuller, free at Scribd. com. Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth by Buckminster Fuller and Designing the Future by Jacque Fresco, free at TheVenusProjectDesign. org. Critical Path by Buckminster Fuller can be purchased at Amazon. The Best That Money Can't Buy by Jacque Fresco can be purchased at TheVenusProject. com.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Peer reviewed research papers..... provide them or its not derived using the scientific method.
axe863 9 months ago
Disney ripped off Fresco but you didn't know that did you. Besides, all ideas come from past knowledge and combinations of past knowledge so no one is truly original.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 How exactly did Walt Disney rip off Fresco? The Epcot design existed in 1962. TVP was started in 1975. Unless if you have evidence that the sufficiently similar plans were made public and/or their was a private disclosing of the plans, how can you make such an accusation?
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Fresco had designs long before 1975. He personally told me that he was asked to meet with Disney and share his ideas for what would become Epcot. He didn't hear from them again and saw they were using his circular city design. Buckminster Fuller also designed a circular-crater city called Old Man River city for Illinois and is also known for his geodesic dome. The circular city idea was not thought of, it was arrived at using the scientific method as the most efficient design.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 I dont care what anyone says. I need evidence. Also, please show me the peer reviewed paper that demonstrates that it is the most efficient design under static efficiency and then under dynamic agglomeration effects.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Read those books if you want evidence. If you double a sphere's diameter, it will quadruple the floor area and produce eight times the volume.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 X personally told me that he was abducted by aliens. You need to think, critically. What you have stated as "evidence" is the lowest form possible. Where are the algorithms for his supercomputer 3000 resource allocator?
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Are you saying these concepts aren't scientifically possible? You have a lot of reading to do.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 o_0
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Geodesic Domes are super-efficient for material usage. The dome framework and interlocking system of triangles, produces the lightest, strongest, free-span self-supporting structure possible. Enclosing space with a minimum of surface area requires fewer materials for construction, resulting in a most energy-efficient and economical building system. In spite of its simplicity, geodesic domes are immensely strong and stable.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 The future will not consist of centrally planned rigid draconian structures (w/ minimal evolvability of the structure) but rather those which are formed with dynamically optimal trade-offs to ensure heterogeneity of failure thresholds and dynamic agglomeration effects.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 You obviously have not research The Venus Project in depth. It isn't central planning, it's arriving at decisions using the scientific method. Also, cities are designed w/ maximum evolvability of structure because the cities we design today will be a straight-jacket to the kids of the future, they'll design their own cities with increased technical knowledge. The only thing constant is change and our cities must be able to constantly change.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Show me the peer reviewed papers. Where the hell are they.... link me them right now... Those designs are top down not a bottom up process. "The only thing constant is change and our cities must be able to constantly change. " Great ..then Fresco should burn all his drawings because theyre not formed from bottom up processes.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Those designs were arrived at. Show me better designs and I will accept them. Even Fresco says they are extrapolations. It's the approach that is important. Designs must be based on the scientific method, not opinions. Show me a better city design please.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@axe863 One last point. Not all cities will use the circular scheme. They will be designed according to their geographical locations
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????Peer review research papers????????
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 I love it! You want peer reviewed papers, from who? Hardly any establishment will admit our cities are outdated, so who's doing the science on this besides people like Fresco?
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Its a conspiracy lol You claim your group uses the scientific paper yet your side has no peer reviewed papers.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 lol you nailed it! I'm sure this conspiracy will be in Jesse Ventura's next t.v. episode lol The whole idea is that our problems today are not political, they are technical. 1000's of years of agriculture society, a mere 300 years of industrial society and now within decades the third wave will unfold. Like it or not, the future can't be stopped. Also, a test city would need to be built and put to test and modified with all relevant fields of knowledge working holistically together.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 I was jking. You demonstrate zero peer reviewed papers, youre telling me to go read some book and Fresco said he'd make video propaganda before he tries to build a city ... lol you guys sound like young earth creationists.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 The general concept of ideas is what's important, socially and technically. Good luck with whatever you advocate if anything. Peace.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Think critically. Peace
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Oh please, I am starting to get sick of people who weren't paying attention when watching the venus project and draw conclusions based on faulty observations. Fresco said that the Venus Project as a whole has never been tried before. Sure there were ideas before, but do you see a circular city anywhere on the planet?
More continues on next reply... please wait...
Beef1188 9 months ago
@axe863 Furthermore: sure it has to be before-known aspects of the city so that it can be built with existing technology otherwise it would not be executable. You can't expect him to plan having "teleportation" or something in his city designs which hasn't been invented yet...
And as an end, Fresco himself admited that he is using technology that we already know of to construct a city, circular design has nothing to do of copying it from somewhere else its just the most logical form!
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Teleportation is more likely than solving problems which suffer from the kind of computational infeasbility that he is proposing. Fresco knows all.... hes above the scientific method... he doesnt need to submit detailed schematics to have them tested for risk adjusted efficiency (on multiple levels)... he knows ahead of time that he is correct.
TVPers: TVP science is our savior but Fresco is our god. Fresco > scientific method.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Well you are just about one of the 10% of the people that are more concerned about the man than the idea the man carries. He's not some supergenius, you can't expect him to salve all of the worlds problems himself.
Barely now, when the venus project got some attention, is he beginning to build a global database of the necesary science to get the thing going. What he already knows he already explained it you just couldn't understand it.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Oh ok... please link me to some peer reviewed research papers that have withstood the scrutiny of repeated scientific testing. The Venus Project will supposedly be run by the scientific method and yet it is being run the exact opposite way today.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863
"Oh ok... please link me to some peer reviewed research papers that have withstood the scrutiny of repeated scientific testing. The Venus Project will supposedly be run by the scientific method and yet it is being run the exact opposite way today."
A scientific peer-review system is not necessary for the scientific method. However, it is a tool often deployed by scientists so they can collaborate effectively with each other, which facilitates the scientific method.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@Beef1188 I said nothing about Fresco as a person. I just loled at how his word transcends the scientific method. Not only are TVPers economic illiterates, they are also illiterates with respect to computer and network science. Please explain how heavy tailed networks with systemic unstructured for uncertainties and potentially homogeneous failure thresholds fully coupled under a error sensitive priceless global RM...is a good thing? A less extreme version of this caused the financial crisis
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Automated multiplex machinery with on-demand production to prevent overruns and shortages.
You propably failed to notice but we already have such machinery in existence. As an example porsche produces some of their cars only as they are ordered, and there are many more examples of how this is used ALREADY in the world.
The difference would only be that almost everything (not food or similar) will be produced this way and also build to last a long time to conserve world resources.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Btw, operational risk usually possesses very low volatility with very heavy kurtosis.The aforementioned process is an extreme version of the aforementioned risk. The subsystem usually operates with low codependency to others. TVP design exhibits extremely high systemic fragility... infinite costless substitution is impossible, the system is only robust to design for uncertainties and high synchronization/low micro-fragility induces high macro-instability.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Not if you have multiple redundancies. If the system suficiently redundant and easily repairable then the risk could be minimized.
Hehe, don't criticize TVP about fragility, the stock market of the existing system is a small building, no bigger than a single apartment block and look what effects it had on the world itself.
What we have here and now is the system that you described!
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 How exactly does the system trade-off between agents heterogeneous subjectively derived path dependent risk/uncertainty preferences against their heterogeneous multi-frequency risk/uncertainty exposures and sufficient costly multiple redundancies. Also, a top down radical complex system has a much higher "uncertainty space" than a bottom up radical CS. Lower codependency of fragile components and the heterogeneous evolution of n components to uncertainty shocks accomplishes this.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863
Say the first city is built and we have a global tracking system which monitors the weather and providing irrigation as based on the fact wether it will rain or not. Say a weather satellite fails and says it will rain like crazy for the next two weeks. The tracking supercomputer will be capable of determining wether a satellite in this example may be failing and immediately reroute other satellites to see if its true. If that satellite failed then it is ostricized, restoring normality.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Weather is highly nonlinear and stochastic. Even if it were purely deterministic, it is unpredictable due to extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. Infinitesimal alterations produce fundamentally different dynamics. One can have infinite computing power and not come any closer to predicting weather.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 It was just an example. Same could be applied for a vertical hydroponics farm, a failing sensor could easily keep saying that there is too much water in a raft tank but there would be more than one. The failing sensor could be ostricized, and monitoring personnel could be alerted to replace it.
It is unfortunate you are unable to grasp the true intricaties of such a feat. But I don't blame you, I blame the lack of education that was made awailable to you... by the current system.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Dunning Kruger effect, much? Youre so ignorant (yet so certain) on this subject that you cant even understand how powerfully I destroyed the TVP.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 You wanted evidence- I gave you common knowledge, you wanted practical aplications- i gave them to you.
What else do you want? You want it clean? You don't want no trouble? I don't support TVP in the way that I would sell my soul to this guy, what I belive in is in this video:
watch?v=EsjGDPxq_DE&feature=related
Pay attention to the last words he said. TVP cities to me are definetely better than new york, and they are executable and functional.
But I don't call them perfect. Just better.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 For starters, I want a mathematical proof of the feasibility of optimizing resources given heterogeneous dynamic subjective preferences with the existence of fundamental uncertainty without a price system.
Thanks for linking me to a video where they talk about generalities and not a peer reviewed paper on TVP.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 So you want me to do the work for you? connect you from A to B to C because I went against your perfect little world? Lets do this in private chat, there isn't enough space here and we are starting to spam the video. Wait for the message there.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 No, I want you to publish a paper and have it peer reviewed. You will win a Turning Prize.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 You have to test it out before you can say anything at all. Surely the city would be more efficient (the circle design), but would it work on a large scale? ummmmm... Everything can't be debunked by theoretical science, otherwise we wouldn't have planes today. If you don't have a price system maybe you can count dependent on the amount of substances and energy, I don't know... there must be some way... Hey! wasn't Nasa going to plant out resource detectors, how will they value the them?
Watchdawg 8 months ago
@Watchdawg It would be more static energy efficient. It would actually be dynamic energy inefficient even though, the goal of TVP is the same as technocracy, it wants to operate on an energy theory of value. Why? Because its structural rigidity(macro µ) disallows dynamic agglomeration effects. The components have predetermined rigid functionals. A better system maximizes innovative potential discounted by systemic fragility.
axe863 8 months ago
@Beef1188 "Pay attention to the last words he said. TVP to me are definetely better than new york, and they are executable and functional." Authority based belief is not how science works. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the way science works. Harold Camping actually provided his formula for his end time prediction and it failed the test. Harold Camping is a better scientist than ...... you know where Im going with this.....
axe863 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@axe863
"Weather is highly nonlinear and stochastic. Even if it were purely deterministic, it is unpredictable due to extreme sensitivity to initial conditions."
There is a gray area between predictability and unpredictability. Of course, no one can be 100% certain of something such as the weather. Weather is highly unpredictable, and yet it is somewhat predictable. Is my statement a contradiction? No it is not. If you disagree, you probably didn't learn the nuance of those terms very well.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@axe863 When you look at it in more detail then you see there is no trade-off, because similar technology is already in effect. Take large city traffic light control system for example. It is just as complex and a faliure would be equally devastating, causing hundreds of traffic accidens, possibly killing thousands.
Don't be fooled by propaganda my friend. Certain aspects of the current system are just as fragile as a global tracking system would be but they still work, don't they?
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Propaganda.... How dare you!!! Your inability to comprehend sound logic doesn't invalidate my arguments. I will take great pleasure in de-converting TVPers. I will do this not with video propaganda/pretty pictures with ZERO peer reviewed concepts like Fresco but with sound arguments from complex systems theory, compute science, nonlinear mathematics and economic theory.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 I am a fully educated computer engineer, where you see caos in the form of 10100 i see mathematical perfection.
And if I, who makes this stuff, can say it can be done, you should listen. The technology TVP would implement ALREADY EXISTS, but you take it so much for granted you just can't see it out there. Traffic control systems, stock market supercomputers etc. are just as fragile. If NORAD had just a false sitings glitch, then "the big ones" would nuke each other to pieces.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 When did I say that they didn't suffer from a degree of fragility. In fact , I stated that the financial crisis was partly induced due to high systemic fragility. I'm a complexity scientist/mathematician and I know (with high probability) what you're saying is incorrect about TVP. Nonetheless,my arguments are true or false independent my level of expertise. Btw, your argument from authority is a logical fallacy.
axe863 9 months ago
@Beef1188 A top down constructed radical highly interconnected system with multiple redundancies with micro-resilience is a fundamentally inferior system to one which is a bottom up radical sufficiently interconnected system with micro-fragility. This is especially the case when agents structure on the artificial (perceived) stability of the system. How does one dynamically tradeoff to maximize risk adjusted efficiency for such complex risk preferences in TVP? Show me the equations...
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863
"A top down constructed radical highly interconnected system with multiple redundancies with micro-resilience is a fundamentally inferior system to one which is a bottom up radical sufficiently interconnected system with micro-fragility."
Physical reality is not an either-or proposition. Example: The infrastructure for supporting online social networks is built from the top-down, with built-in redundancies, while users feeding in input develop the social networks from the bottom-up.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 Redundancies are costly ... how do you propose to maximize risk adjusted utility without prices?
axe863 5 months ago
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kmarinas86 5 months ago
"how do you propose to maximize risk adjusted utility without prices?"
As long as utility is defined only quantitatively, there is no possibility of maximizing risk-adjusted utility without prices.
Once we can define a non-quantitative definition of risk-adjusted utility, only then you should consider it possible to properly formalize a way of maximizing risk-adjusted utility without prices. The problem is that this "utility" must be something "felt" yet which cannot be measured.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
continued: "The problem is that this "utility" must be something "felt" yet which cannot be measured." Here I assume that "measure" refers to the observation of a scalar quantity, which qualitative utility cannot be. Although qualitative utility cannot be quantified, it can be categorized. The categorization scheme can consist of a combination of ordered and unordered category sets. The reality to me seems that an intelligence can do this pre-consciously, whereas a draconian system cannot.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 Individuals subjectively construct heuristics to deal with excessive computational intensity. This is how an individual who would take billions of years to effectively maximize his/her own subjective utility can enter and leave a store of a few thousand goods in 40 minutes. This adds another layer that is un-knownable under a zero price non-capitalistic system.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863
When efforts required go beyond the comfort of voluntary self-directedness, the price system is unavoidable. Considering the effort needed for a comfortable standard of living, you cannot get rid of the price system prior to full automation.
Our economy needs the price system for the time being simply because the very deep automation needed for a higher-standard of living "100% gift economy" simply does not exist yet. Therefore, I cannot see a reason for eliminating prices immediately.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 Regardless of what the Austrians say, even New Classicals dont utilize cardinal utility .so this is a mute point......Btw,why are you saying this? This much more negative to your position than mine. If its unquantifiable on a higher scale, this only makes a price system with local actions under irreducible dynamics more critical, not less.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863
I do not live alone, and I understand that most interactions in a house do not involve exchanging currency. When the cost of doing things is low enough, I do not have to pay or be paid to get certain things done, such as having the dishes washed, cooking dinner, etc.. What I do or not do inside the house is based on qualitative cost vs. qualitative benefit. Currently what I do outside is based on price, because it is more expensive, requiring more non-volunteer labor.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 You are not required to interact with individuals by exchanging currency. You do it because you are not relatively more efficient at all things (this is an impossibility by the way). You can barter if you want, its just very inefficient. Labor carries dis-utility. This is the reason why dynamic adjustment will not be undertaken when consumption levels are fixed regardless of individuals responses.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863
"You can barter if you want, its just very inefficient."
Barter can only support very short supply chains, and it works only in very tight-knit networks, such as families or villages. Money is needed when the supply chain is long. That is why we have money.
A money-less society can only work if the supply chain length is effectively zero. In other words, it requires on-site production with no seller, just a consumer. Prior to this occurring, full automation must be generously donated.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 I compared two systems ... system B is strictly superior to system A for all states.... so ...
axe863 5 months ago
@Beef1188 The city designs, although severely draconian and possessing a high degree of systemic fragility, are not my biggest concerns. Computational infeasibility ( "Hard" and "Soft") and the lack of endogenously induced diversifying innovation are my greatest concerns
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 Fragility? You REALLY aren't paying attention. The structures fresco designed are dome-based, and the dome is one of the sturdyest structures known to man, even stronger than the pyramid.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Epic lol ...... Im not talking about Walt Disney sturdy dome shaped structure ... Im talking about the cities inferior network topology
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 And what im trying to say is that they are not inferior. They are the result of years of commuting research by valid scientistists determining that not only it would be an effective method of transportation, in conjunction with a circular object design it would also constitute the ultimate solution in mass transit.
And this does not just come from Venus Project or disneyland. Same transit topological concepts are also present in japanese designs such as sky city or pyramid city.
Beef1188 9 months ago
@Beef1188 Provide peer reviewed papers or leave. You say an untested undisclosed system with magical algorithms can solve all the worlds problems. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. TVP magical algorithms require mathematical proofs. TVP provides neither scientific evidence nor mathematical proofs.....absolutely nothing. Zip...nothing....nada. This is beyond embarrassing.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863
"Im talking about the cities inferior network topology"
There is a classification scheme for network topologies, which I am sure you are aware of. What you seem to not be aware of is that any real city will have features of more than one type of type of network topology. Any real city possesses network topologies -plural. Combinations of these (> 1) can be confined under the singular notion of a "hybrid topology".
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 I was talking about severe tail risk given that these are weighted degree- heterogeneous networks that are highly weighted interconnections with other city structures that all interconnected with a GRM system.... & they seem (sorry I dont usually do my analysis by looking at pretty drawings ..so this is only a superficial analysis) H.O.T systems with sufficiently homogeneous failure thresholds and they have rigid structures==> minimal evolvability of the macro-structure
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863
"H.O.T systems with sufficiently homogeneous failure thresholds and they have rigid structures==> minimal evolvability of the macro-structure"
If the aim is to reduce failures, one of the consequences of that aim can be the maturity of the evolutionary process, a maturity that can lead to a punctuated equilibrium in the development of ubiquitous architecture. Reduced evolvability is due to adaptations sufficing for the present conditions. Here, adaptation can be slow, yet sufficient.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 Reduced evolvability can be induced by prolonged illusory stability ==> aka an evolutionary dynamic towards "hyper-sensitivity" to unstructured for fluctuations... so congrats on promoting a system that creates such heavy tailed dynamics that will led to higher systemic fragility. Under an RBE, consumption levels are fixed regardless of agents response to necessary dynamic adjustments.... so yeah.. I really dont understand why youre trying to hurt your own side .
axe863 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
cybermutagen1 said: "Not all cities will use the circular scheme. They will be designed according to their geographical locations"
@axe863 to cybermutagen1
"Peer review research papers???????? [x 8]"
So, axe, do you think the outcome of a scientific paper might be that cities won't be designed according to their geographical locations? Do you think that such a paper might also conclude that all cities will use the circular scheme?
kmarinas86 5 months ago
Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????Peer reviewed research papers????????
axe863 9 months ago
cybermutagen1 said: "Geodesic Domes are super-efficient for material usage...In spite of its simplicity, geodesic domes are immensely strong and stable."
@axe863 to cybermutagen1
"The future will not consist of centrally planned rigid draconian structures (w/ minimal evolvability of the structure)"
Rigidity is neither a synonym for stability nor strength. Flexibility, stability, strength, as well as user-customizability, can be engineered into the same structure.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 Do you even know what agglomeration effects even mean? I can come up with a much more dynamically efficient design. Multiple cores (Fresco's increasing densification model would be a logistical nightmare and not to mention that its fantastic for epidemics due to these extremely critical nodes within a city structure being interconnected with others), allowance for irregular spatial dependencies (no pretty circles, agglomeration & evolving dynamics induce increasing returns to scale)
axe863 5 months ago
@kmarinas86 A GRM system with single core city structures is the most Tail risk adjusted inferior system that I can think of. How can you even derive marginal utility without prices? I want an actual proof .....not oh yeah we get that covered.
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863 The aerodynamic shape withstands powerful external pressure, such as wind, snow load and earthquakes. Its astounding ability has been tested to withstand five times more stress than required by building codes.Geodesic Dome structures are extremely energy-efficient. Air circulates freely in a dome without obstruction or ceiling level heat build-up. The ideal energy flow shape means that the geodesic dome uses 30 to 50 per cent less energy to heat and cool than a conventional home.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@axe863 There is also a third less exposed surface area to heat and cool than a conventional box structure, which increases efficiency again. Because of the many identical parts the basic shell is very light, they can be erected very quickly without any specialised equipment.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Dynamic innovation not the areas/volumes of shapes are important. I cant believe you said that
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863
"Dynamic innovation not the areas/volumes of shapes are important. I cant believe you said that."
If you were an automotive engineer you wouldn't be so picky. Automotive engineers of today compete in both form and function. Innovative features such as satellite navigation, parking assist, and cruise control do not reduce the importance of designing proper structures for protecting passengers, lowering air resistance, and increasing capacity for storage and towing.
kmarinas86 5 months ago
@cybermutagen1 TVP is also a ripoff of technocracy. What you have just said is static energy based optimization. This is exactly what technocracy proposes.
axe863 9 months ago
@axe863 TVP differs socially from technocracy. Also, I was just giving you one example of the scientific efficiencies of dome structures. I can only have a meaningful conversation with you if you've done your homework. Let me guess, the dog ate it. Go read a lot more books and get back to me.
cybermutagen1 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Show me how the scientific method derived Frescos plans. Show me the peer reviewed papers. You have absolutely nothing but pretty pictures and systems that are efficient assuming static conditions.
axe863 9 months ago
@cybermutagen1 Exactly, nothing is truly original. Everything can be tracked back into history, it's just a shame people actually think they come up with something new and then call other people copycats. When you read history books of technology it clearly says that people took ideas from each other and slightly updated it, then another person came and did the same.
Watchdawg 8 months ago
@Watchdawg Disney didnt rip off Fresco. This is from the early 60's, Fresco started TVP in the mid 70's. Copying to a degree is fine. Taking everything from the Epcot design, sticking on a socialist utopia with an imaginary god-like computer and calling it your design is straight up BS.
axe863 8 months ago
@axe863 You don't know for certain whether they ripped him off or not. TVP might have started in the mid 70's but he came up with the ideas way back. Even if he copied it and changed it, so what? his version still looks better than the disney version. Maybe I will copy it some day and make my own changes to it, who knows? There is nothing wrong with updating (supposedly) other people's ideas.
Watchdawg 8 months ago
@Watchdawg Disney's design was revealed in the early 60's. If a company X comes out with a car in 1960 and company Y comes out with the same car in 1970 with different headlights, which one do you think will be sued for ripping off the other.
Its the same exact design, He didnt take a few characteristic elements of it , he straight up ripped it off.
axe863 8 months ago
@shadowgeyser I was thinking about how NMW would comment against the stated "causes" be