If a majority of the world is going to hell, how is Jesus victorious? Sounds like a victory for Satan. How can I experience peace in Christ if my dead relatives are burning in hell right now? What if the verses that mention everlasting punishment are mistranslated? What about all the people who have died before hearing about God, did they go to eternal hell?
I am on the fence about this issue and looking for the truth about it. It is not my intent to pick a fight or even defend Universalism.
@enthralledbylight the world hell in the bible usually means grave (look in greek concordance) or gehenna which was a trash dump that was kept burning 24/7 ancient Israel. How can anyone still logically believe there is eternal damnation if most words in the bible about hell and eternity have been mistranslated?
@urbanrecon Eternal Death or damnation is all punishement. No matter which way you slice it, there will be eternal, without end, separation from God. That separation is what Christ and the apostles adamantly warned us against.
satan & his crew are eternal beings ..so it would only stand to reason eternal punishment would seem logical for them. eye for an eye should yield a human who was not included within the "few will enter" but seems it should yield how ever long they lived after they reached accountability. but of course how dare lil ole me attempt "logic" to a holy god who is feared for perpetually destroying a soul way beyond the time they lived in their bloodsack fleshy thing sinning daily never stopping.
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
So because you can not imagine it that makes it so?....Here's something to ponder..Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Christian universalism ultimately teaches that God's law doesn't condemn sinners but actually cleanses them of their sins in the lake of fire. Apparently its Gods law that cleanses us from all unrighteousness and not the blood of Christ.
Universal salvation teaches: [1] God will use the great white throne judgment to punish the unrepentant wicked people into submission. This will persuade them to believe God loves them. [2] The fiery law of God (lake of fire) can do what the atoning sacrifice of Christ couldn’t do. [3] The wages of sin is major cleansing through God’s fiery law and not the 2nd final death which ends the existence of the wicked people.
@potooth There is no atonement without the destruction of sin and Satan... the sinful nature. It is through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross that the destruction of Satan was wrought. The destruction of Satan is not separate from the cross of Jesus Christ; atonement. Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
@graceexplosion That's a mistranslation, dear, or translators translating according to the traditions of man instead of the original languages. The word incorrectly translated "destroy" is the Greek word "Katargeo". It means to render powerless, to be made of none effect. It does not mean anihilation. Jesus Christ defeated Satan at the cross and stripped Satan of all power over death, He has the key to death and Hades. That's all there is to that verse. He spoiled the goods of the strong man.
@Cutie9326 Scripture interprets scripture.Satan is destroyed into nonexistence. Ezek 28: 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
@graceexplosion Another mistranslation. That's what happens when people rely on translations rather than the original Hebrew and Greek. It's "and shall not be to the eon." And just so you know, fire symbolizes purification and ashes symbolizes repentance. I won't waste my time with literalists and those who don't study to show themselves approved. Go to the tentmaker site and start learning...
@Cutie9326 I don't know who you think you are. I have been reading the Bible voraciously for 40 years in greater volume than anyone I have met. I have power by the Holy Spirit to receive rhema. Jesus fully destroyed Satan on the cross. There are many ways to see this. Satan's kingdom is not divided. Satan cannot be destroyed at all unless Jesus destroyed him fully. Remission of sins = annihilation of Satan. Satan is destroyed in the bodies/spirits of saints thus r we holy.
@Cutie9326 I don't think you understand who and what Satan is. Satan is 100% evil as the spirit of sin. Lucifer, before the fall, is not the same "person" as Satan spiritually. The spirit of Lucifer before the fall was the Holy Spirit and Lucifer had a holy spirit. Annihilation of the unholy spirit of Satan, the spirit of sin and evil, is necessary for restoration of all. Satan did not exist prior to the fall of Lucifer and can be annihilated with nothing lost.
The absolute opposite of eternal life is eternal life of torment? No, the absolute opposite of eternal life is eternal death. If you do an honest study on the subject of God's final judgment specifically the 2nd death you will plainly see the wicked are devoured, destroyed, as if they never were, no root or branch, as ashes under our feet, etc. Its time to get out of the dark ages and into reality.
@potooth No scripture support anihilationism. Read the article "Eternal death", by Gary Amirault. Symbols and parables must not be interpreted literally. Also, physical death and destruction, yes, anihilation, no. One has to twist the scripture to make them say that and the original languages don't even hint at that...
@JAKEHARRIS281 That guy is a liar and a fool. He claims that angels and demons are mere symbols for good and bad humans, when millions of people have reported sightings of evil spirits and have even been attacked or oppressed by Shadow Beings who tried to kill them. To claim that ALL scripture without exception are symbolical or parable is foolishness. He might as well say that Jesus' miracles, the flood and the resurrection were mere metaphores. Such absurdity...
@Cutie9326 Watch who you call a liar and a fool because NO he doesn't teach that satan is merely symbolic. You must have missed his entire article on "the origin of satan, evil, and sin."
You're the heretic! you hypocrite! That's what happens when you bias. Try to look at something without the intent of proving someone wrong.
In the parable the sheep and goats are separated, and the goats go to hell and the sheep go with God. Well the division is entirely based on the acts of kindness and mercy done by people to their disadvantaged fellow men; Jesus identifies such kindness with kindness towards himself.
How can you think God is literally talking about these goats going to a
@TheOkstate2012 How can you think God is literally talking about these goats as people going to a literal hell for not doing good deeds? That's preposterous.
Did you read anywhere that said they were going for anything else other than good deeds? Even more, the sheep are going for good deeds, not belief in Christ.
I think the point of this parable is this: "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these(BE) my brothers,[f] you did it to me."
You are saying that God is a failure and he will cause pain and suffering to billions FOREVER! IMAGINE SEEING SOMEONE IN THIS PAIN FOR FIVE MINUTES!! BLASPHEMY TO THE MAX!! AND I SAY THIS TO EVERY CHRISTIAN THAT DEFENDS THIS DOCTRINE!!
People who fight against Christian Universalism are traitors to God and spreading a false gospel because they dont believe He is savior of all, or that He will be all in all as Paul and the Bible clearly taught. They completely deny scripture and they are traitors to the human race because they wont stand up for their very human neighbours against this horrible angry god who tortures people forever in a 'hell'. They are the "cowardly, unbelieving...."
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is mo darkness at all.
God did not create evil and if you had any knowledge of anything then you would know this.
Evil is the absence of GOOD. Your logic is flawed as well as your hermeneutics. If you say God created evil then you say God is evil and will have no right to judge at the Great White Throne judgment.
@theawakener7 Ok here we go, Is God PERFECT? Yes or No? If God created evil and he created satan to be evil then at the great white throne judgment he will have to acquit very sinner that comes before Him because He created the evil within them. This means UNIVERSAL SALVATION! Big words will not aid you here. Is He the perfect judge or not? If He is, then He will judge all sin and in order to do that He cannot be a HYPOCRITE and condemn if He created that same sin.!
@theawakener7 In Isaiah 45:7 This verse has been misquoted more than almost any other verse. God knew Pharaohs heart was evil and God used him as a tool. The proper word should be CALAMITY and is rendered as such in the NASB, NKJV. ESV,
The NLT class it "bad times, The NIV and Apologetic study bible call it disaster.
God did not create evil and if you truly believe that then you are not of God. My advice is simple. Study more and become a real Christian. Time is running out!
1 Corinthians 15:22 exposes Christian unbelief in the power of Christ by. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." So according to what 99% of what Christians believe, what Adam did in the garden is more powerful than what Christ did at the cross, and when it says Christ put all things under His feet, Christians do not believe this. Good news to most Christians is "many will be lost." This is like a Christian trying to convince you 2+2=254. True unbelievers look likeSHEEP
Plato, referrring to certain souls in Hades, describes them as being in “aionian” intoxication. But it's clear that he doesn't use the word "aionian" to mean "endless." In the Phaedon, he says, “It is a very ancient opinion that souls quitting the world, repair to the infernal regions, and return after that, to live in this world.” After the “aionian” intoxication is over, they return to earth, demonstrating that the word was not used by him as meaning endless.
“Aion” literally means “an age” or “an indeterminate period of time.” Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,” and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) I something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.
EVEN IF YOU DIE AN ATHEIST, YOU CAN STILL GO TO HEAVEN!-1 Peter 4: 5-6- “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
“Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:9-10)
“Therefore, just as one man’s [Adam’s] trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s [Christ’s] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.” Rom. 5:18
“For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” (Rom. 11:32)
“For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:22)
you sound bookish. Your argument doesnt connect. I believe in the eternal goodness and kindness of God. I believe also on what The Lord Jesus has done on the cross.
So God created us, knowing full well that he would be condemning MOST of HIS OWN CREATION to an unending punishment in a literal LAKE OF excruciating FIRE? Nonsense. Yes, absolutely God will redeem his ENTIRE CREATION, including Satan and his angels THROUGH spirtual cleansing called the LAKE OF FIRE (God has ALWAYS used FIRE as a spiritually cleansing agent - NOT as a punishment which is what you believe). Why is such mercy so hard for you to believe?
If the punishment for sin is eternal suffering/separation from god/whatever else you can pull out of your butt, why is it that jesus was able to pay that debt...in FULL? Why is he still not suffering in your imaginary Hell? Because even the gravest sin does not require eternal punishment.
"Well He is God, and he can do anything." Well if that's the case, why can't he save everyone then?
He's (God) a clever fellow, I'm sure he can conjure up a solution to this pickle.
SOMETIMES it is enough to look up a word and see what it means according to what ANOTHER man says it means, but more often than not, we CANNOT do this.
The TRUE meaning of a word is dictated by the context of a word.
For example: If use a totally new word like "blivit" in a sentence like this: "I walked home yesterday and boy is my back killing me, I had to hike two miles with my blivit on my back!"
I apologize if what I say is insulting, I do NOT mean it to be. But we must be Logical about the words Aion and Aionios; and you are NOT being logical about it.
As you can see by the very short list of the uses of the word Aion, it just can never be that Aion or Aionios means Eternal, forever or Infinite.
If an "Aion" has a beginning an end and there are many of them, How in the world could you understand Aion to mean Eternal??
BEFORE the aions: I Cor. 2:7-- God MAKES the aions Heb. 1:2-- PAST aions: Col. 1:26-- PRESENT aion: Gal. 1:4--- END of present aion: Mat. 24:3-- The NEXT aion: Lk. 18;30-- FUTURE aions: Eph. 2:7--
The post below underlines how silly some are when trying to PROVE Eternal Torture.
People are CONSTANTLY using Matt. 7:13 to show that MOST men are LOST. But they do not even know what they are talking about.
We can see in the example I just gave that Jesus came to SAVE the very Apollumi, so how COULD they be LOST FOREVER??
It is just silly!!
Most don't know what Eternal Life really is! Most "Christians" think it means living in heaven with God forever, but it is CLEAR that is not the case.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION (Apollumi), and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).
Sounds bad for those who are going down that path doesnt it??
But WAIT!!!
Here comes another verse, let us see what this says, shall we?
"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST (Apollumi)" (Matt. 18:11)!
Jesus came to save those that are Apollumi (Destroyed, lost or whatever English word you wish to use)
Your own mouth said, when you were reading a quote from Miriam Webster online. That Aion means an indefinite period of time. Why then do you insist on it meaning and unlimited period of time?
Early heresy? Really? It wasn't declared so to nearly 500 years after Christ died and Roman influence entered the church. I can give a very LONG list of early church fathers who believed in UR. 4 out of the 5 first theological schools taught UR. The Nicene Creed doesn't even label it as heresy.
Well, my God is better than your God then. He loves and will save everyone! And you know what? He will probably do it blindfolded with both hands behind his back, that's how great my God is.
Nice, just shows how illogical Universalism is. It makes no sense, the only evidence they have is twisted scriptures to support their view like islamic radical twist to Koran to support terroism.
QuantumUni, I disagree. Most of the early church fathers held believed in UR. It wasn't declared a heresy till nearly 500 years after Christ and after Roman influence. Augustine, who had a big influence on the western church is quoted as saying that he hates Greek and didn't know it well. Yet he pushed the meaning of aion to mean eternal when it actually doesn't. There is no twisting of scripture. It's a matter of seeing them through the right lenses. God's will to save all makes sense
Romans 6:23 ~ For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jesus save us from Death. All people currently living in sin are dead in their transgressions and sins. It is this state that Jesus saves us from!
This seems to be your opinion more than anything. You sure don't use scripture much. I used to believe the same way though. That's the problem with most churches, no real Bible teaching.Just peoples opinions from the pulpit. Take care.
Good comments guys. Yes God is the saviour of ALL MEN (1 Tim 4:10), and He will not fail to save anything less than ALL men.
There are hundreds of scriptures that preach the salvation of all, yet the mainstream twists them all due to a belief in a pagan hell. In fact it is the pagan hell that infiltrated the church, specifically in Rome, and then spread.
Check out:
tentmaker(.)org
bible-truths(.)com
for in depth study and history on how hell came to be in the bible.
The problem is, is that Mainstream Christianity are sheepal for the ministers and the tradition of men, when the should be the sheep to Jesus Christ and the True Word of God.
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he HIMSELF shall be SAVED, yet so as by fire".
Why should it be incredible to you that God could restore even the devil? He can make a universe from nothing, but that clever old serpent got the best of Him. Philippians says every knee will bow, in heaven, on earth, and UNDER the earth. Of course, we know that Satan is not literally under the earth, but who else could this symbolism refer to. BTW Webster isn't any kind of authority on the meaning of an ancient Greek word. The fact that there is more than one eon proves it's not eternity.
@nrolett Because many are in a state of spiritual immaturity where they cannot see past the Church Dogmas. The pastor says it, it must be true? Afraid not.
Traditionalists always site 1 Timothy where it says "Will have all men saved" as their "Proof text". If only they would read that passage on, they would luckily learn that it says to "Be testified in due time". If the case was that this "Will have all men saved" was the only passage, then the traditionalists could argue.
@nrolett However, this is not the not the case. Scriptures from the Law, Prophets, Psalms, the Gospels, the Epistles and every other book makes clear reference to salvation that cannot be refuted unless you twist the scriptures. And to ignore the teaching of Universal salvation is to ignore the major theme of the bible.
@cjhocker Why would our All knowing and All Loving God do this knowing what the future is. God would know that many would reject him in this lifetime. I am tired of people giving God human traits. God is spirit and eternal punishment has no value or redemption.
earliest forms of heresy in the early church?! Not even the Catholic Church considers it heresy. They consider it heterodox, which is alot different from heresy. Only one out of the six schools of theology in the early church believed in eternal damnation and 4 believed in UR, so it was just some heretical idea that poped up. Some who believed in it helped formulate critical christiandoctrine. I don't take either side 100%, but you have alot more studying to do before you label something heresy!
I hear all these argument's about hell and why you don't believe in a literal hell. I since fear in those who do not believe that hell exit. You have every excuse why you think it is impossoble for a loving God could send anyone to hell. The truth is a loving God is trying to keep you from going there, that why he gave us His Son Yeshua to die for our sin's and to reconcile us back to Him. If you reject the only offering God gave us, then you condemn yourself. You can't blame God at all.
God chooses us we dot choose him. Christ receives us we do not receive him. You have it backwards. Eternal damnation is a false teaching that is spread through the mistranslation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Eternal damnation is a pagan doctrine not a Christian doctrine. It was never a part of Judaism, and it is not a part of true Christianity. eternal damnation originated under the Egyptian and Babylonian mystery traditions. You people to get it straight. Your teaching lies.
punishing someone for eternity (which is longer than 1,000,000,000 to the 1,000,000,000 power years) for sins committed in the most insignificant fraction of that time doesn't seem fair.
If a Christian had a child who was not chosen to be saved by god, after a few years of their child being tortured in hell, don't you think they would realize how unfair that is? How can a person be happy in heaven knowing their beloved child is being tortured without end? But god must want to recruit sadists.
If your so secure and sure of your doctrine of eternal torture, which by the way originates in ancient Babylon under the mystery cult of Zaroaster( it certainly didn't exist in the ancient Hebrew religion, or even in the modern Hebrew religion, much less was it common in the early church), then why wont you allow video response? Man you guys are all the same, i try to respond with a video and you block it. Whatever...
If any mans works be burned he shall sufer loss but he shall be saved, yet so by fire.
God is like a refiners Fire and Fullers soap. Malachi
There is no word meaning "punish" or "punishment" in the Hebrew. There two Greek words, timoreo, "punish," and kalazo, "chastise," with the same English word, "punish."
2Pet2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (kalazo =Chastised)
Question: If the punishment for sin is ET then when did Jesus pay this price? (Scriptures, please). Actually He did descend into Hell, to preach to those there, (1 Peter 3:18-20) so it doesn't sound like there is no hope for them.
Jesus paid by dying (death) for our sins. The wages of sin is death, whosoever believeth should not perish, the soul that sins it shall die, etc. So He took our punishment (death) which we deserved. But He is not in Hell now!
Well put!!!!!! Even as a young kid, I wanted to declare "shenanigans" on that one!!! LOL If sinning means that we "go to hell" and Jesus paid our price, why isn't He still in hell? Instead of looking to God's law to understand His sense of justice, the church has gone to paganism and borrowed its ideas of ever-angry horrible gods. LISTEN TO THIS, ET BELIEVERS.........ETERNAL TORMENT COMES STRAIGHT FROM PAGANISM! THAT IS NOT THE CHARACTER OF YOUR FATHER!
People are condemned to Hell for unbelief, not for sins. Sins are just symptoms of unbelief. A man burning in hell cannot come to God in faith, because Jesus was the object of faith, and he rejected Jesus. People cannot burn in hell until they believe, because they all would believe the moment they died and saw God. Opportunity for faith is lost when we see something. It is no longer by faith, but by sight. God's only means of redeeming man is lost, because faith is no longer possible.
Do you not understand that God gives faith people at the appointed time? Did you get your faith in Christ simply because you had the good sense to weigh the evidence correctly? Or did God reveal Himself to you? Sin is not sin unless it is against the Law. Paul tells us that in Romans. Does the Law EVER list eternal torment in hell as the proper punishment for any disobedience? It DOES teach that NO ONE will remain in any bondage forever. LEV. 25 And who said, "burn til they believe"?
Have you ever thaught about the following : that the real "Prodigal Son" is Lucifer/Satan (and the fallen angels) ?????? The bible brings first of all a SPIRITUAL MESSAGE. The message of spiritual beings created by God, who is a spirit too, and even the only Holy dearest Spirits of al spirits ?
May Jesus Christ bless you and bring light into this matter to you,
Universal Salvation, as taught in the Greek text of the New Testament Did you know that God saves some now, and reconciles all others later? The Bible says that the living God is "the savior of all men, especially of those who believe" 1Tim. 4:10.
The Bible tells us that Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" 1Tim. 2:6, and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" 1Cor. 15:22
Why would God not show himself completely if the circumstances were so dire? He's is just testing us? It's a test and if you fail you get tortured eternally? That seems very twisted. I mean if you really get a choice between heaven and hell then wouldn't it be fair to show both sides of the table? What about all of the remote peoples that never heard the word of Christ? They are doomed for not living on the Eurasian continent? If God is fair he will show both sides clearly, if there are 2 sides
My Analogy for a Vengeful God is; You have two choices you can be friends with me or you can choose to not be friends with me. I'm a very kind person. If you choose not to be friends with me however I'm going to kill and mutilate you. You have free will though, whatever you want to choose. That's not really free will, that's do it or else.
Not many address the animals of the world. They live out their lives in beauty and did not eat of the tree. are they all going to be saved? They cannot speak, any language we understand any way. Are Humans the only ones to be saved? Animals have a soul so is it going to the pits of hell? I don't believe in a Loving/Vengeful God so I'll come right out and say it. I actually don't know what I believe completely> I know I don't believe in a vengeful God though.
William Tyndale died to give you the Bible, and you make such ridiculous accusations like he didn't know how to translate Aion correct? I don't know where you people get this history from but it's not the history of Bible translation that I was taught.
Bishop Peter Boehler (1712-1775)spread the teaching of universalism from central europe to England and the American colonies and his influence helped john Wesley (1703-1791) the founder of Methodism to become sympathetic towards the idea of universal reconciliation in his latter years.
Universalism is still very strong within Methodism
Of course, and that is why Methodism became a religion with just the form of godliness, and not the true power. After-all, why battle so hard against sin if you are going to make it anyway? Why bother to inconvenience yourself to save souls if they get in anyway? Therefore people became lukewarm and the movement lost it's power. This doctrine is always seasonable where there is no Spirit fire. Once the fire of the baptism falls again this teaching will again fall into obscurity.
or maybe This is what Jesus taught and if you google universalism in the early church you would find this to be the case, you seem to underestimate God while slandering his personality , if you said this sort of stuff about my dad i,d give what for so don't call my heavenly dad a psychopath torturing monster you cad !!! this sort of stuff just isnt cricket.!!!!
Wow, you really showed something here..."why battle against sin if you are going to make it anyway"? Let me tell you something, brother. I NEVER NEVER NEVER "battle against sin" to avoid some retribution. The spirit of Christ is within me, transforming me from the inside out. I can choose to not cheat on my wife out of fear, but I can't choose to love someone! I'm powerless to change who I am. Do you really live the christian life because you may not "make it"???
The Bible requires 100% obedience to the commandments of God. Men are powerless due to their inbred corruption to obey those commandments. But man can not trust in God until he has given up all hope to be able to obey the commands himself. He can not give up hope in himself, until he tries in his own strength and fails. Once frustration overcomes him, he will realize that he is in need of a saviour. Then he is able to come to the end of himself and trust God.
This is the route that all almost all men take, save the deathbed conversions. God is able to convert a man the moment he has lost all hope in himself and this world. But for a healthy and strong man, who has confidence in himself, he must take to striving to obey the commandments and fail. Only then can he realize his own inbred corruptions are too great for him, and throw himself upon God for mercy.
Well, being raised in the Nazarene/Wesleyan holiness tradition myself, I recognize someone absolutely committed to Wesley's opinions. Let me ask you something, have you been "sanctified" or experienced "Christian perfection"?
I haven't yet, but I believe I will and that God is moving me closer to that regularly. Recently God taught me that faith is a practical thing. Not just believing the cross and resurrection, but also believing for daily necessities. Regardless whether or not I have had the experience, many Godly men have in recent years. Men like musician Keith Green and preacher Leonard Ravenhill had this experience.
let me re-phrase......my question was rhetorical. NO ONE has had this experience! Let me explain. The feast of pentecost celebrated the time when moses wrote the law on tablets of stone. It was fulfilled 50 days after Jesus' death (passover) when the Holy Spirit wrote the law on their hearts..BUT(!!!) Pentecost was a feast with LEAVEN....leaven is a symbol of carnality. During this age.....life in the Spirit is still mixed with our old nature until "Tabernacles" is fulfilled. Study this!
universalism was THE primary doctrine of the church until it was forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the 6th century. 4 of the 6 theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism, and only 1 supported eternal damnation.
The reasons for believing in universal reconciliation go so far past the translation of "aion". One place people should BEGIN studying these things is the Torah. Has anyone stopped to realize that God set it up so that NO debt remains outstanding forever? Read Lev. 25..if a man is NOT redeemed by a kinsman redeemer, he is set free at the year of Jubilee. Well, just like passover was fulfilled, one day...creation will experience its Jubilee. God forbid we read His Law for understanding.
Anyway Flav, good debate! Unfortunately anyone can grab a group of scriptures that support their view, so long as they leave out scriptures that are contrary to their view. At the end of the day, it is up to each of us to make an interpretation, and I will stand with the old saints and their interpretation. For the world's sake, I hope you are right. But for my sake, I will stay my course, because if I am wrong, I have lost nothing, but instead have a great reward to look forward to. Take care!
Good talking to ya bro,its just sad how many Christians,rely on doctrines of religious leaders instead of listening to the voice of the apostles, keep up the good faith God is with you always.God bless.
No scripture refutes Universal Salvation better than this:
...and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. Rev 16:10-11
"Men gnawed their tongues in agony, and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done!" - Thomas Watson
This proves conclusively that Hellfire won't refine anyone, instead causing them to hate God the more.
I guess you did not notice that Rev.16 is way before the final jugdment Rev.20,all the dead will be ressurected to be jugded th same way you and I are now ,JUGDMENT must start with the house of the lord,next the rest of the world,we were in the same state as the world but Christ is saving us first,the first fruits than the rest of the evil in men is burned in the lake of fire,and the last to be destroid is death 1rst Cor.15-26 so God can be ALL in SOME? No, all in all.All will confess and bow.
"Faithful is this saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS ..."1 Tim.15 .All have sinned,there is none that seeks God.Oh but when they die they are lost forever,the prodigal son was LOST but now is found,was DEAD but now alive,the 99 are safe so He will go after the LOST one.The father sent...(greek-Apostellos)sent out in a mission...the son to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD,so God can be all in all.
God forbid I listen to any modern preacher, and I refuse too, except Keith Green. This is the Laodicean church and we are so wise! We have no fruits like the old saints, but we know better. They read Greek and Hebrew in Kindergarten but indeed we know it better than they! Many men risked and lost their lives to translate the bible but they did it wrong, now we have better translations like the YLT that are far superior to the works of the old saints. God forbid we be so foolish!
Keith was a true follower of Christ with a true heart for the lost ,I wish he was here to see how far this superficial gospel has come,I have all his music.Any how if you like the saints of old check what the king James tells us in 1 Tim 2-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men.
Also, Flav. Suppose you are right and I am wrong. Do I lose anything for being wrong? Have I not then striven with all my heart to snatch as many souls out of Hell as possible? Will I not have great reward in heaven? But if I am right and you wrong, and those who hold your position, what of the souls that weren't reached due to carelessness? Maybe you walk in sincerity, but how many that hold your doctrine do so because they love their sins? Too risky to hold your view for myself and the lost.
I can see in your comments you fear for the lost as if you could save the world,Christ saving the world does not change the message,those that believe will be saved those that not will be condemned,but to eternal hell?only in bibles that have been adulterated it tells such things,do a research on the word aionion=pertaining to an age,which they trans.forever and ever,everlasting etc...and see for your self the mess they made out of it.
I have done research on Aion, Aionis and Olam and am convinced that the words can mean either an age or an eternity. Plato for instance used the word Aion to describe both age and eternity. Strongs says that Olam can mean eternity. Also, you must realize, that if hell is not eternal, then neither is heaven. So the old saints rightly understood the definition of Aion to mean eternity. What foolishness to think that the great men of God who brought huge revivals read their Greek bibles wrong!
well I told my wife I will be with her forever,but forever is until death due us apart,Flavio josephus used such word to describe the time betwin the law and his writings,not eternal,aionion God ,God of the ages,so when the ages are done will God die and all the saints?no because to us was given IMORTALITY not only aionian life 2 Tim 1-10.
What pride this generation of lukewarm believers have in thinking they know better than the saints in the 1700s and 1800s. These old saints grew up reading Hebrew and Greek! Yet this generation is so much more educated and wiser! What pride we have, with our society in moral ruin to think the old saints had it wrong, when those men converted countries to Christ and stopped the moral slide. Because of Wesley and Wilberforce slavery ended in Britain. What similar good has any Universalist done?
If all men are saved, then you lose your motivation to convert them. You will back out of immediate suffering because you will feel that you will get saved regardless and so will the people you ought to convert. You will be unwilling to suffer as the Apostles did. I pray God bring persecution to our land, because then this doctrine will cease to exist. When persecution comes, only men who believe souls are lost for eternity will persist to the end.
again John, can you convert anyone ? we are to preach the word,to feed the poor,to cloth the naked to love OUR ENEMIES,why love them if they are to be lost any way, according to foreknowledge God saw them not choosing wright? and still decided to form them,but why?can evangelicals answer these q.?Is His love eternal?Are His mercies eternal?IS the will of MORTAL men greater then God's will?what to men is impossible-save them selves,is not for the great king of glory.God bless.
Yes, by God's foreknowledge, not ours. So we preach to all creatures and love all men. Jesus preached to all and loved all though he knew he would be rejected and that is an example to us. The point is how men ought to be, not the result. Shall I treat someone poorly because foreknowledge knew they would reject God? Is this what Christ did? According to you God's love and mercies are only for an age, and death and hell are only tossed in the lake of fire for an age.
John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin." I know no gospel without salvation from self righteousness,did God's creation malfunctioned?Is Satan greater the the Great God?He chose us based on His foreknowledge wile we were still SINNERS, so did you chose Him out of your own carnal will?Did you do the work of the Holy Spirit convincing your self?for the carnal men CANNOT unders.the things of the spirit...The savior of the WORLD can't save the world. Bible please.
Yep, God's salvation is a salvation from self-righteousness. It is described here: Luke 1:74-75 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." Yes, God first loved me, and His Spirit first called me, but I responded to His call. James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
James puts the work of drawing nigh to God upon us, not upon God. Everyday we have a choice, and our closeness to God is determined by us. If people are not close to God, and still carnal, then it is because they do not "Draw nigh to God." Heb 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." Is God to blame that they still need milk?
What you are now doing is accusing God that it is His fault for leaving the people Paul was writing to in a carnal state. You then disagree with James statement. We are constantly warned in the Bible about falling short: Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Why such warnings if we have no free will? God is waisting his time with these commands and warnings to us, if we can't choose to act contrary to them.
in Is. is written that God declared(HE didn't see it)the END from the BEGINNING. so can we change what is written and make God a liar?can we make God change His plan every second because we keep on making choices that are not His plan? did David lied when he said ALL his days were written in God's book?can we choose the day we die? See Wesley no human being ever asked God to be born in this world ,but thats what it takes to live(Sptual body)we have to DIE first,no flesh no blood in heaven.
I don't see how declaring the end from the beginning takes away human free will. We cannot change His plans because His plans are according to foreknowledge exactly as the scripture said. Why even mention forknowledge in the Bible if it was of no use to God, if He never required forknowledge for anything? Why? Why even mention the word if it had nothing to do with God's plans? What value is foreknowledge in election if God does not make determinations by it?
Yes, He chose me. But it is no pride. He chose all men. He came to us to bring conviction and to reveal Himself to us. He brought us to the person that converted us and helped us to understand Him enough to receive Him in justification. He does it. Good gosh, how anyone thinks that free-choice can affect God's plan is beyond me. You limit God saying that he can't allow men to be free, lest they mess up His plans. Ridiculous!
I think the predominating theme from the "Universalist" camp, is of people who are trapped in sin, and who refuse to believe that God would condemn them for it. John Wesley said this: "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin." The Bible says that you people are dead to sin. Why do you not believe it? Faith overcomes the world. You need to start believing the whole Bible, and you will have complete freedom from sin. This is the truth that brings revival, which God gave to the Methodists.
Oh really, didn't we both slapped the savior in the face? you say the world deserves justice,so does you and me,we sin every day,don't forget where you came from.If you can answer this question I,ll start believing all these lies again .You say God chooses according to foreknowledge,how can a loving God knowing the future create billions that would suffer in Wesley's hell for all eternitissssssss? Didn't He know the so called lucifer was gona fell and bring most humanity to hell? Bible please.
Heresy? I think what you believe is heresy. And stop BSing. Explain the following scriptures please. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:6)
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9)
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
Is this not about free choice? Is this whole creation not about choosing or rejecting God according to our own choice? If universal reconciliation is correct than it is not about choice at all! It is just God's fun little game then. The people that really love God get in to heaven and the people that hate God are forced to accept Christ by torture and then they get in to heaven. I didn't realize that God was a brutal dictator who will force His enemies to be His friends.
I didn't realize that God was a brutal dictator who will force His enemies to be His friends.What do you call some one that burns billions of souls in your fable hell? do you call that love?Is God love or a brutal dictator?did you chose Him or did he choose you?Did you love Him first or did he loved you first?can you change what is written? Answer this questions and see where you stand!maybe your will is greater than than will of God,which makes you ONE.
Every man has a choice where they end up. Do right and live, do wrong and die. Not difficult. They choose it not God. Tell me... why would God cause men to fall into sin if not to give free choice? Why give Adam a don't unless to give free choice? If men have no free will then God would not have bothered letting them fall in the first place. What is the point of the fall if everyone is forced back to the heavenly state at the end of 'the age' as you would say? Is God having cruel fun?
Yes, Peter knew exactly what the master said,you will deny me!don't you think he had enough time to change his fate?according to the free willers he had,but why didn't he John? Do you see any freedom there?Is a slave of sin free?what will your heaven be knowing some one you loved is being toasted for all eternitiesssssss by the God who is LOVE?Are you from Christ Jesus or J.Wesley? Blinded by tradition maybe? All the prodigals will come back! Are you mad your brothers will come?gET T. PARABLE?
Whoa, you are way off man! Peter was suffering from Romans 7! He didn't do the things he wanted and did the things he hated. Christ fixed that on Pentecost when the Spirit came with power. Then Peter got up and preached with boldness, eventually dying on a cross upside down. The fullness of the Spirit is freedom from sin. John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin."
You accuse God of being a sicko to force people to fall into sin without any choice on their part, then to come and die on a cross for no reason because they needn't have fallen in the first place because you deny free will. Your theology makes no sense whatsoever. There is no explanation for the fall of man except for to give free choice and man makes his own choice, either accept or reject God. You say Christ died to save men when God never needed to make them fall in the first place. Sick!
The only thing that's sick Methodist is your comments. You claim that God does not choose who will be saved, contrary to many scriptures that say the opposite. Jesus told the disciples "No man can come to me UNLESS the Father draws him." He also said, "you have not chosen me I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." Paul affirms this when he said "no man can say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Ghost 1 Cor 12:3. Also, "God has FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN you to salvation" 2 Thess 3:13.
And Jesus also said, "many are called, but few are chosen," he didn't say "few CHOOSE." You have made an idol of this thing called "free will," which is not scriptural at all. God cannot be sovereign nor omnipotent if our "free will" can thwart his plan. It's too bad that you are too blind to see how ridiculous your arguments are, and how you ignore plain scripture regarding God's sovereignty in place of a mythical and unscriptural concept known as "free will"
You keep harping on people who don't choose God, when there are and were millions of people who never even heard of Jesus. Babies have died before they can even THINK of choosing God. Millions of people in third world countries have not had the gospel preached to them, yet you believe that everyone who's ever drew breath have had the same chance to "choose" God as you have. It shows how pompous and self righteous you are.
And another sad thing is...you fully believe in "free will" and believe that people who sin will "go to hell," yet I guarantee you that you sin just as much, if not more, than any person who doesn't believe in Jesus. What's your excuse for that? Why doesnt your blessed "free will" keep you from sinning? Why do you STILL sin even when you know that it's wrong, and you supposedly have the "free will" NOT to sin? This is why Jesus called people like you HYPOCRITES
Nothing is more preposterous than the idea that God, who knows the end from the beginning, would create billions of people whom he KNOWS will end up being tortured in "hell" for eternity, and calling this act loving and just. You claim that it's "brutal" to "torture" people and make them believe and be SAVED, yet it's NOT "brutal" to torture someone for ETERNITY and NOT have a chance to be saved. What a sick religion you believe in
Read Romans 7, and then read the solution to this problem promised in Ezekial 36! Look at the change in Peter after Pentecost! This does not argue with free will whatsoever. John Wesley - "All the commandments of God he accordingly keeps, and that with all his might. For his obedience is in proportion to his love, the source from whence it flows. And therefore, loving God with all his heart, he serves him with all his strength."
John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin."
Those are nasty allegations: "It shows how pompous and self righteous you are." You ought to judge righteously, and that means having all of the information before making a judgement. You don't know me well enough to make such a judgement. Nor do I think you know John Wesley's heart either, that he was neither pompous or self-righteous. I cannot answer what happens to them, except that God knows all, and is able with foreknowledge to lead men to Himself.
You use this scripture: "many are called, but few are chosen," in contradiction to this scripture: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" You can not use one scripture to contradict another. Jesus says clearly that it is the people in Jerusalem who would not, not God who would not.
You are a Calvinist, not a Universalist. There are a great many scriptures proving that Jesus came to die and save all men: 1 Tim 2:4, 1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 4:10 (1 Tim 4:10 is clear as day) Calvinism disagrees with all such scriptures and so you must cut them out of your Bible. Arminianism does not disagree with scriptures that support Calvinism, because as the Bible says: 1 Pet 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"
"No man can come to me UNLESS the Father draws him." How does this disagree with Wesley? "you have not chosen me I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." How does this disagree with Wesley? "no man can say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Ghost" How does this disagree with Wesley? "God has FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN you to salvation" Elect by foreknowledge, yep, agrees with Wesley. I am unsure what conclusion you are attempting to draw with those scriptures...
I call Him a Just God: Psalm 89:14 (KJV) Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. God gives men a choice and rewards them accordingly Rev 22:12. He calls us first, but we must respond. The choice is ours. Hey Flav, if I were to slap you upside the head, would you not desire justice from God against me? Would you feel loved by God if He didn't avenge you? So justice is part of love. Inseperable. Without justice God loves no man.
you tell me is just for a loving God to burn billions of people including young ones,including many that had never heard the gospel, including people in countries that don't know Christ ever walked this earth, including people that had less chances than others(they lived shorter lives)Just because you and I were given mercy before them,it don't mean we deserve it and you act like you do.What will your heaven be knowing your loved ones are being burned alive? SICK theology.Bible please.
Arguing that we have a choice, doesn't mean we deserve the choice, else grace isn't grace and we are saved by works, not by faith. But Christ did not die in vain. Predestination by foreknowledge does not void God's plan, because God's plan is based on His foreknowledge. He knows who will choose Him and who won't, and He knows what those unborn children would choose if they had the chance to live. Love includes justice. I will be satisfied that my loved ones who hated God are receiving justice.
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."the reason for such warnings is that God can only judge us if His word is spoken,of course he knows our actions what you and i will decide shortly,every one makes choices they are just not free,nothing that is caused is free,if He command us to love Him,those that don't can be judged for the word was spoken we repent because His goodness leads us to repentance OUR WILL?or His goodness?
His goodness sends His' Spirit to convict us and enable us to repent. Look at your daily experience, if you are wandering from God, you feel the Spirit come and tell you to get right with God. You then make a choice what you will do.
His goodness sends His' Spirit to convict us and enable us to repent.You then make a choice what you will do. Now see if the choice you made was free from nothing or caused?You are wright,it is His' Spirit that convict us and enable us to repent, so He is the very cause you and I believe the savior, a will yes but not a free will,and we are still responsible for our actions,but responsibility to save us is God's alone.He made the wound so He himself will heal us through spiritual fire.
I will be satisfied that my loved ones who hated God are receiving justice. How can God breath his life even into the unborn knowing that they will in the future not choose Him,but he still let them live for a wile than send them to Hell?how much more umbilical can you get.Christ's followers(thats you and me)asked Him to send fire and kill the Samaritans and He said to US:The son of men DID NOT come to destroy the souls of men but to save them,you see HE still loves your unloved ones.
Predestination by foreknowledge? so if He saw you choosing and then chose you ,Christ lied when HE said I have chosen you ,not we Him,He loved us first not we,and if this is true grace was based on our part not God's and this my friend is not grace,how long will it take for believers to understand that chastising, punishment,hard words,furnace of fire,lake of fire,death,second death,death to self,tribulation,etc... are part of being created in His image and likeness.
How much does God command us to love Him? Luke 14:26-27 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." I will be satisfied, that if my loved ones hate my God whom I love with all my heart, that they will receive the penalty for their sins, and deservedly so! They despise the God of love!
I dare suggest flav, that perhaps your heart is still on the things of this world. I am not self-righteous to say this, because I have walked away from and embarrassed the Lord a thousand times. God still humbles me regularly. I used to think like you, but now my thinking is more in line with God: Psalm 15 "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?" The one: "In whose eyes a vile person is contemned." That goes for family/loved ones also!
yes I have also embarrassed God many times thinking I could save myself and He humbled me showing me salvation is His alone,and that I stand because of Him not me,and that Grace was not based on what I did but was according to His will,and that Christ is a powerful savior that will finish His work,SAVE THE WORLD,the cross was just the beginning,if human will is greater than God's it means that we are gods,wht He wills must happen and it is to have ALL men saved.
He wills all men to be saved, but I can't agree that they all will be. God wants people to choose Him and praise Him. Willing people, not robots, else He is not glorified and accomplishes nothing. But when we willing choose Him, it justifies all of His' actions and proves His character as just and good.
Just another one for you. The kingdom of heaven was prepared for us before the world began, the word of God tells us so,but remember that Adam and Eve was FLESH and BLOOD and Paul tells us that FLESH and BLOOD can not inherit the Kingdom,do you still believe that God didnt know w. was happening?or did he meant the fall for the good of men?I'll stay with the truth,God wounded the world so He himself will heal us.
Would there not be people, after being in this fire - at the end of the lake of fire age - who would hate God? Does suffering unbearable agony from someone usually cause the person suffering to have great love for the one who causes the suffering? What would happen to people that still reject God after being in the lake of fire? Do they go back in for another age of fire? Keep putting them back in until they willing accept God? This idea is preposterous.
If a majority of the world is going to hell, how is Jesus victorious? Sounds like a victory for Satan. How can I experience peace in Christ if my dead relatives are burning in hell right now? What if the verses that mention everlasting punishment are mistranslated? What about all the people who have died before hearing about God, did they go to eternal hell?
I am on the fence about this issue and looking for the truth about it. It is not my intent to pick a fight or even defend Universalism.
urbanrecon 3 weeks ago
@urbanrecon Jesus is never victorious in the eyes of the sinner, however, to the saints, his uber victorious!
There is heaven to gain and a hell to shun.
enthralledbylight 3 weeks ago
@enthralledbylight the world hell in the bible usually means grave (look in greek concordance) or gehenna which was a trash dump that was kept burning 24/7 ancient Israel. How can anyone still logically believe there is eternal damnation if most words in the bible about hell and eternity have been mistranslated?
urbanrecon 3 weeks ago
@urbanrecon Eternal Death or damnation is all punishement. No matter which way you slice it, there will be eternal, without end, separation from God. That separation is what Christ and the apostles adamantly warned us against.
enthralledbylight 3 weeks ago
satan & his crew are eternal beings ..so it would only stand to reason eternal punishment would seem logical for them. eye for an eye should yield a human who was not included within the "few will enter" but seems it should yield how ever long they lived after they reached accountability. but of course how dare lil ole me attempt "logic" to a holy god who is feared for perpetually destroying a soul way beyond the time they lived in their bloodsack fleshy thing sinning daily never stopping.
dubvishun 1 month ago
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The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
So because you can not imagine it that makes it so?....Here's something to ponder..Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
xxbobdeexx 11 months ago
Can we say that Adam was more successful in damning all of humanity than Christ was in saving it?
trainerx7979 11 months ago 2
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Christian universalism ultimately teaches that God's law doesn't condemn sinners but actually cleanses them of their sins in the lake of fire. Apparently its Gods law that cleanses us from all unrighteousness and not the blood of Christ.
potooth 11 months ago
Universal salvation teaches: [1] God will use the great white throne judgment to punish the unrepentant wicked people into submission. This will persuade them to believe God loves them. [2] The fiery law of God (lake of fire) can do what the atoning sacrifice of Christ couldn’t do. [3] The wages of sin is major cleansing through God’s fiery law and not the 2nd final death which ends the existence of the wicked people.
potooth 11 months ago
@potooth There is no atonement without the destruction of sin and Satan... the sinful nature. It is through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross that the destruction of Satan was wrought. The destruction of Satan is not separate from the cross of Jesus Christ; atonement. Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
graceexplosion 3 months ago
@graceexplosion That's a mistranslation, dear, or translators translating according to the traditions of man instead of the original languages. The word incorrectly translated "destroy" is the Greek word "Katargeo". It means to render powerless, to be made of none effect. It does not mean anihilation. Jesus Christ defeated Satan at the cross and stripped Satan of all power over death, He has the key to death and Hades. That's all there is to that verse. He spoiled the goods of the strong man.
Cutie9326 2 months ago
@Cutie9326 Scripture interprets scripture.Satan is destroyed into nonexistence. Ezek 28: 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
graceexplosion 2 months ago
@graceexplosion Another mistranslation. That's what happens when people rely on translations rather than the original Hebrew and Greek. It's "and shall not be to the eon." And just so you know, fire symbolizes purification and ashes symbolizes repentance. I won't waste my time with literalists and those who don't study to show themselves approved. Go to the tentmaker site and start learning...
Cutie9326 2 months ago
@Cutie9326 I don't know who you think you are. I have been reading the Bible voraciously for 40 years in greater volume than anyone I have met. I have power by the Holy Spirit to receive rhema. Jesus fully destroyed Satan on the cross. There are many ways to see this. Satan's kingdom is not divided. Satan cannot be destroyed at all unless Jesus destroyed him fully. Remission of sins = annihilation of Satan. Satan is destroyed in the bodies/spirits of saints thus r we holy.
graceexplosion 2 months ago
@graceexplosion I beg to differ. Colossians 1:16-20; Philippians 2:10-11.
Cutie9326 2 months ago
@Cutie9326 I don't think you understand who and what Satan is. Satan is 100% evil as the spirit of sin. Lucifer, before the fall, is not the same "person" as Satan spiritually. The spirit of Lucifer before the fall was the Holy Spirit and Lucifer had a holy spirit. Annihilation of the unholy spirit of Satan, the spirit of sin and evil, is necessary for restoration of all. Satan did not exist prior to the fall of Lucifer and can be annihilated with nothing lost.
graceexplosion 2 months ago
The absolute opposite of eternal life is eternal life of torment? No, the absolute opposite of eternal life is eternal death. If you do an honest study on the subject of God's final judgment specifically the 2nd death you will plainly see the wicked are devoured, destroyed, as if they never were, no root or branch, as ashes under our feet, etc. Its time to get out of the dark ages and into reality.
potooth 11 months ago
@potooth No scripture support anihilationism. Read the article "Eternal death", by Gary Amirault. Symbols and parables must not be interpreted literally. Also, physical death and destruction, yes, anihilation, no. One has to twist the scripture to make them say that and the original languages don't even hint at that...
Cutie9326 2 months ago
Go to Bible-Truths dot-com and read Ray Smith's articles.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 year ago
@JAKEHARRIS281 That guy is a liar and a fool. He claims that angels and demons are mere symbols for good and bad humans, when millions of people have reported sightings of evil spirits and have even been attacked or oppressed by Shadow Beings who tried to kill them. To claim that ALL scripture without exception are symbolical or parable is foolishness. He might as well say that Jesus' miracles, the flood and the resurrection were mere metaphores. Such absurdity...
Cutie9326 2 months ago
@Cutie9326 Watch who you call a liar and a fool because NO he doesn't teach that satan is merely symbolic. You must have missed his entire article on "the origin of satan, evil, and sin."
JAKEHARRIS281 2 months ago
You're the heretic! you hypocrite! That's what happens when you bias. Try to look at something without the intent of proving someone wrong.
In the parable the sheep and goats are separated, and the goats go to hell and the sheep go with God. Well the division is entirely based on the acts of kindness and mercy done by people to their disadvantaged fellow men; Jesus identifies such kindness with kindness towards himself.
How can you think God is literally talking about these goats going to a
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
@TheOkstate2012 How can you think God is literally talking about these goats as people going to a literal hell for not doing good deeds? That's preposterous.
Did you read anywhere that said they were going for anything else other than good deeds? Even more, the sheep are going for good deeds, not belief in Christ.
I think the point of this parable is this: "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these(BE) my brothers,[f] you did it to me."
TheOkstate2012 1 year ago
You are saying that God is a failure and he will cause pain and suffering to billions FOREVER! IMAGINE SEEING SOMEONE IN THIS PAIN FOR FIVE MINUTES!! BLASPHEMY TO THE MAX!! AND I SAY THIS TO EVERY CHRISTIAN THAT DEFENDS THIS DOCTRINE!!
gastonmross 1 year ago 5
People who fight against Christian Universalism are traitors to God and spreading a false gospel because they dont believe He is savior of all, or that He will be all in all as Paul and the Bible clearly taught. They completely deny scripture and they are traitors to the human race because they wont stand up for their very human neighbours against this horrible angry god who tortures people forever in a 'hell'. They are the "cowardly, unbelieving...."
GODALLINALL 1 year ago
@theawakener7
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is mo darkness at all.
God did not create evil and if you had any knowledge of anything then you would know this.
Evil is the absence of GOOD. Your logic is flawed as well as your hermeneutics. If you say God created evil then you say God is evil and will have no right to judge at the Great White Throne judgment.
God did not cause satan to become evil.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@theawakener7 Ok here we go, Is God PERFECT? Yes or No? If God created evil and he created satan to be evil then at the great white throne judgment he will have to acquit very sinner that comes before Him because He created the evil within them. This means UNIVERSAL SALVATION! Big words will not aid you here. Is He the perfect judge or not? If He is, then He will judge all sin and in order to do that He cannot be a HYPOCRITE and condemn if He created that same sin.!
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@theawakener7 In Isaiah 45:7 This verse has been misquoted more than almost any other verse. God knew Pharaohs heart was evil and God used him as a tool. The proper word should be CALAMITY and is rendered as such in the NASB, NKJV. ESV,
The NLT class it "bad times, The NIV and Apologetic study bible call it disaster.
God did not create evil and if you truly believe that then you are not of God. My advice is simple. Study more and become a real Christian. Time is running out!
Noffy1111 1 year ago
1 Corinthians 15:22 exposes Christian unbelief in the power of Christ by. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." So according to what 99% of what Christians believe, what Adam did in the garden is more powerful than what Christ did at the cross, and when it says Christ put all things under His feet, Christians do not believe this. Good news to most Christians is "many will be lost." This is like a Christian trying to convince you 2+2=254. True unbelievers look likeSHEEP
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
ready to believe
MrTrilidge 1 year ago
Hell doctrine is founded on pagan doctrines that crept into the bible after pagan Rome "converted."
Wages of sin is death (Rom6.23) not eternal life suffering.
"Hell" is from Anglo-Saxon "hel" derived from sheol and English hole/hell derive from 'hel.'
Terms "forever" & "eternity" are based on Heb. "Olam" & Gk. "Aion" both refer to ages/indefinite time spans.
"Hell" is falsely translated from biblical Sheol (grave) Gehenna (valley) Hades (grave) & Tartarus (underworld prison).
& much more
AllOtherNamesUsed 1 year ago
damn you are hot
takenbythesky 1 year ago
Plato, referrring to certain souls in Hades, describes them as being in “aionian” intoxication. But it's clear that he doesn't use the word "aionian" to mean "endless." In the Phaedon, he says, “It is a very ancient opinion that souls quitting the world, repair to the infernal regions, and return after that, to live in this world.” After the “aionian” intoxication is over, they return to earth, demonstrating that the word was not used by him as meaning endless.
aaa333ify 1 year ago
“Aion” literally means “an age” or “an indeterminate period of time.” Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,” and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) I something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.
aaa333ify 1 year ago
EVEN IF YOU DIE AN ATHEIST, YOU CAN STILL GO TO HEAVEN!-1 Peter 4: 5-6- “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
aaa333ify 1 year ago
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“Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:9-10)
aaa333ify 1 year ago
“Therefore, just as one man’s [Adam’s] trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s [Christ’s] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.” Rom. 5:18
“For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” (Rom. 11:32)
“For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:22)
aaa333ify 1 year ago
you sound bookish. Your argument doesnt connect. I believe in the eternal goodness and kindness of God. I believe also on what The Lord Jesus has done on the cross.
The work of Christ will never fail.
1Bonado 1 year ago
So God created us, knowing full well that he would be condemning MOST of HIS OWN CREATION to an unending punishment in a literal LAKE OF excruciating FIRE? Nonsense. Yes, absolutely God will redeem his ENTIRE CREATION, including Satan and his angels THROUGH spirtual cleansing called the LAKE OF FIRE (God has ALWAYS used FIRE as a spiritually cleansing agent - NOT as a punishment which is what you believe). Why is such mercy so hard for you to believe?
RationalPrejudice 1 year ago 2
If the punishment for sin is eternal suffering/separation from god/whatever else you can pull out of your butt, why is it that jesus was able to pay that debt...in FULL? Why is he still not suffering in your imaginary Hell? Because even the gravest sin does not require eternal punishment.
"Well He is God, and he can do anything." Well if that's the case, why can't he save everyone then?
He's (God) a clever fellow, I'm sure he can conjure up a solution to this pickle.
:)
bandude19 2 years ago
We know, BY THE CONTEXT of the sentence, that a blivit is probably pretty heavy and can be carried by a human down a street.
Let us assume that we can believe the sentence about the bilivit as we can the Word of God.
Now, say someone comes along and tells us that "NO,..a human can NEVER carry a blivit!" We know that they are LYING!!
If the word of God says that an Aion has a beginning and an end and there are more than one than an Aion can NEVER mean eternal or forever!!
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
SOMETIMES it is enough to look up a word and see what it means according to what ANOTHER man says it means, but more often than not, we CANNOT do this.
The TRUE meaning of a word is dictated by the context of a word.
For example: If use a totally new word like "blivit" in a sentence like this: "I walked home yesterday and boy is my back killing me, I had to hike two miles with my blivit on my back!"
What can we deduce about what a "Blivit" is??
Cont.
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
I apologize if what I say is insulting, I do NOT mean it to be. But we must be Logical about the words Aion and Aionios; and you are NOT being logical about it.
As you can see by the very short list of the uses of the word Aion, it just can never be that Aion or Aionios means Eternal, forever or Infinite.
If an "Aion" has a beginning an end and there are many of them, How in the world could you understand Aion to mean Eternal??
It makes no sense and is completely illogical!
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
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EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
And do you want to know even better news??
Eventually,....in GOD'S time and NOT ours,....ALL MANKIND WILL HAVE IT!!
Many people have differing thoughts of what Condemnation and Judgment is!
But God tells us what that is too,.....you just have to have a mind that is open to the truth.
It amazes me what people have been able to teach us and GET AWAY with!!!!
Mainstream Christianity LOVES to scare little Children!! They tell them MYTHS of a pagan hell to scare old ladies.
Sick individuals!!
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
Lets look at one simple piece of scripture and that will tell us that Eternal Life is NOT sitting on a cloud with a harp!!
John 17:3 And THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eternal Life is Knowing Jesus Christ!!!
That is IT!!
There is nothing at all else to it.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out, yet everyone makes such a big deal out of it, even though God tells us very plainly!
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago 2
The post below underlines how silly some are when trying to PROVE Eternal Torture.
People are CONSTANTLY using Matt. 7:13 to show that MOST men are LOST. But they do not even know what they are talking about.
We can see in the example I just gave that Jesus came to SAVE the very Apollumi, so how COULD they be LOST FOREVER??
It is just silly!!
Most don't know what Eternal Life really is! Most "Christians" think it means living in heaven with God forever, but it is CLEAR that is not the case.
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION (Apollumi), and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).
Sounds bad for those who are going down that path doesnt it??
But WAIT!!!
Here comes another verse, let us see what this says, shall we?
"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST (Apollumi)" (Matt. 18:11)!
Jesus came to save those that are Apollumi (Destroyed, lost or whatever English word you wish to use)
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago
Your own mouth said, when you were reading a quote from Miriam Webster online. That Aion means an indefinite period of time. Why then do you insist on it meaning and unlimited period of time?
TheSaviouroftheworld 2 years ago 15
Early heresy? Really? It wasn't declared so to nearly 500 years after Christ died and Roman influence entered the church. I can give a very LONG list of early church fathers who believed in UR. 4 out of the 5 first theological schools taught UR. The Nicene Creed doesn't even label it as heresy.
hmwallace 2 years ago 3
Well, my God is better than your God then. He loves and will save everyone! And you know what? He will probably do it blindfolded with both hands behind his back, that's how great my God is.
thegrudgegit 2 years ago 4
Hell is a concept copied from pagan religions. You are speaking from a position of abject ignornace.
Ask yourself why you need to feel that people are damned in order to feel good about yourself.
Steeleperfect 2 years ago 4
Universal salvation makes a lot of sense to me. I just recently learned of it and i am beyond happy!
P.S. pls stop touching/sctatching you nose, it shows weakness
katkovsky 2 years ago 5
Nice, just shows how illogical Universalism is. It makes no sense, the only evidence they have is twisted scriptures to support their view like islamic radical twist to Koran to support terroism.
QuantumUni 2 years ago
QuantumUni, I disagree. Most of the early church fathers held believed in UR. It wasn't declared a heresy till nearly 500 years after Christ and after Roman influence. Augustine, who had a big influence on the western church is quoted as saying that he hates Greek and didn't know it well. Yet he pushed the meaning of aion to mean eternal when it actually doesn't. There is no twisting of scripture. It's a matter of seeing them through the right lenses. God's will to save all makes sense
hmwallace 2 years ago 4
That's not good enough, UR back then wasn't even mainstream, you had Gnosticism and other competitors with their own version of the Word of Elohim.
"God's will to save all makes sense" Let me ask you a question which would lead to more, What is God/Jesus saving us from?
QuantumUni 2 years ago
Romans 6:23 ~ For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jesus save us from Death. All people currently living in sin are dead in their transgressions and sins. It is this state that Jesus saves us from!
TheSaviouroftheworld 2 years ago 2
This seems to be your opinion more than anything. You sure don't use scripture much. I used to believe the same way though. That's the problem with most churches, no real Bible teaching.Just peoples opinions from the pulpit. Take care.
bulldog1961 2 years ago
Good comments guys. Yes God is the saviour of ALL MEN (1 Tim 4:10), and He will not fail to save anything less than ALL men.
There are hundreds of scriptures that preach the salvation of all, yet the mainstream twists them all due to a belief in a pagan hell. In fact it is the pagan hell that infiltrated the church, specifically in Rome, and then spread.
Check out:
tentmaker(.)org
bible-truths(.)com
for in depth study and history on how hell came to be in the bible.
Peace.
boom72erang 2 years ago 5
God made many Aions, Past Aions, Future AIons. How could an Aion be eternal???
You make no sense.
God never promised eternal life.
God promised for us to "Put on Immortality!"
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago 2
The problem is, is that Mainstream Christianity are sheepal for the ministers and the tradition of men, when the should be the sheep to Jesus Christ and the True Word of God.
"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he HIMSELF shall be SAVED, yet so as by fire".
Fire on the house of God now.
The burning bush
Pillar of Fire
Tongues of Fire
Sprinkled with fire
Fire is a cleaning agent
THe Lake of Fire,..... IS GOD!!!
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago 2
Not even worthy of any comment. Simply a young man with a little bit of knowledge. Most of which, is inaccurate.
kevinneslund 2 years ago 3
Why should it be incredible to you that God could restore even the devil? He can make a universe from nothing, but that clever old serpent got the best of Him. Philippians says every knee will bow, in heaven, on earth, and UNDER the earth. Of course, we know that Satan is not literally under the earth, but who else could this symbolism refer to. BTW Webster isn't any kind of authority on the meaning of an ancient Greek word. The fact that there is more than one eon proves it's not eternity.
nrolett 2 years ago 19
Amen nrolett
EmeiBaguazhang 2 years ago 2
@nrolett Because many are in a state of spiritual immaturity where they cannot see past the Church Dogmas. The pastor says it, it must be true? Afraid not.
Traditionalists always site 1 Timothy where it says "Will have all men saved" as their "Proof text". If only they would read that passage on, they would luckily learn that it says to "Be testified in due time". If the case was that this "Will have all men saved" was the only passage, then the traditionalists could argue.
judaemic 1 year ago
@nrolett However, this is not the not the case. Scriptures from the Law, Prophets, Psalms, the Gospels, the Epistles and every other book makes clear reference to salvation that cannot be refuted unless you twist the scriptures. And to ignore the teaching of Universal salvation is to ignore the major theme of the bible.
judaemic 1 year ago
@cjhocker Why would our All knowing and All Loving God do this knowing what the future is. God would know that many would reject him in this lifetime. I am tired of people giving God human traits. God is spirit and eternal punishment has no value or redemption.
gastonmross 1 year ago
@nrolett "Why should it be incredible to you that God could restore even the devil?"
Colossians 1:16-20; Philippians 2:10-11. Amen to that brother. All humans and angels will be saved...
Cutie9326 2 months ago
You do not seem to understand theology. You made no references to scripture passages so I stopped listening.
kathyc1977 2 years ago 3
earliest forms of heresy in the early church?! Not even the Catholic Church considers it heresy. They consider it heterodox, which is alot different from heresy. Only one out of the six schools of theology in the early church believed in eternal damnation and 4 believed in UR, so it was just some heretical idea that poped up. Some who believed in it helped formulate critical christiandoctrine. I don't take either side 100%, but you have alot more studying to do before you label something heresy!
JRHockney 2 years ago
I hear all these argument's about hell and why you don't believe in a literal hell. I since fear in those who do not believe that hell exit. You have every excuse why you think it is impossoble for a loving God could send anyone to hell. The truth is a loving God is trying to keep you from going there, that why he gave us His Son Yeshua to die for our sin's and to reconcile us back to Him. If you reject the only offering God gave us, then you condemn yourself. You can't blame God at all.
foreverinchrist1 2 years ago
God chooses us we dot choose him. Christ receives us we do not receive him. You have it backwards. Eternal damnation is a false teaching that is spread through the mistranslation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Eternal damnation is a pagan doctrine not a Christian doctrine. It was never a part of Judaism, and it is not a part of true Christianity. eternal damnation originated under the Egyptian and Babylonian mystery traditions. You people to get it straight. Your teaching lies.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago 3
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punishing someone for eternity (which is longer than 1,000,000,000 to the 1,000,000,000 power years) for sins committed in the most insignificant fraction of that time doesn't seem fair.
If a Christian had a child who was not chosen to be saved by god, after a few years of their child being tortured in hell, don't you think they would realize how unfair that is? How can a person be happy in heaven knowing their beloved child is being tortured without end? But god must want to recruit sadists.
exodus21v20 2 years ago
If your so secure and sure of your doctrine of eternal torture, which by the way originates in ancient Babylon under the mystery cult of Zaroaster( it certainly didn't exist in the ancient Hebrew religion, or even in the modern Hebrew religion, much less was it common in the early church), then why wont you allow video response? Man you guys are all the same, i try to respond with a video and you block it. Whatever...
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Why do you need others to go to Hell? Why do you want God to be a monster?
Steeleperfect 2 years ago
These conclusions come from A little study?? What are you about 18??
How about Lewis Abbotts 30 YEARS of exhaustive work that supports Universal Reconcilation with complete linguistic and scriptural support??
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 2 years ago
If any mans works be burned he shall sufer loss but he shall be saved, yet so by fire.
God is like a refiners Fire and Fullers soap. Malachi
There is no word meaning "punish" or "punishment" in the Hebrew. There two Greek words, timoreo, "punish," and kalazo, "chastise," with the same English word, "punish."
2Pet2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: (kalazo =Chastised)
GenMata 2 years ago
Question: If the punishment for sin is ET then when did Jesus pay this price? (Scriptures, please). Actually He did descend into Hell, to preach to those there, (1 Peter 3:18-20) so it doesn't sound like there is no hope for them.
Jesus paid by dying (death) for our sins. The wages of sin is death, whosoever believeth should not perish, the soul that sins it shall die, etc. So He took our punishment (death) which we deserved. But He is not in Hell now!
ontarioboy101 2 years ago
Well put!!!!!! Even as a young kid, I wanted to declare "shenanigans" on that one!!! LOL If sinning means that we "go to hell" and Jesus paid our price, why isn't He still in hell? Instead of looking to God's law to understand His sense of justice, the church has gone to paganism and borrowed its ideas of ever-angry horrible gods. LISTEN TO THIS, ET BELIEVERS.........ETERNAL TORMENT COMES STRAIGHT FROM PAGANISM! THAT IS NOT THE CHARACTER OF YOUR FATHER!
djewnn 2 years ago
People are condemned to Hell for unbelief, not for sins. Sins are just symptoms of unbelief. A man burning in hell cannot come to God in faith, because Jesus was the object of faith, and he rejected Jesus. People cannot burn in hell until they believe, because they all would believe the moment they died and saw God. Opportunity for faith is lost when we see something. It is no longer by faith, but by sight. God's only means of redeeming man is lost, because faith is no longer possible.
JohnWesleyMethodist 2 years ago
Do you not understand that God gives faith people at the appointed time? Did you get your faith in Christ simply because you had the good sense to weigh the evidence correctly? Or did God reveal Himself to you? Sin is not sin unless it is against the Law. Paul tells us that in Romans. Does the Law EVER list eternal torment in hell as the proper punishment for any disobedience? It DOES teach that NO ONE will remain in any bondage forever. LEV. 25 And who said, "burn til they believe"?
djewnn 2 years ago
How can God condemn people for unbelief? A person can choose their actions, but not what they believe.
There is no Hell. Hell is impossible if God is good. And if God is evil, why worship Him?
Steeleperfect 2 years ago
Hello, cjhocker
Have you ever thaught about the following : that the real "Prodigal Son" is Lucifer/Satan (and the fallen angels) ?????? The bible brings first of all a SPIRITUAL MESSAGE. The message of spiritual beings created by God, who is a spirit too, and even the only Holy dearest Spirits of al spirits ?
May Jesus Christ bless you and bring light into this matter to you,
JL (prophet / mystic ) -chanel
jacoblorber 2 years ago
Universal Salvation, as taught in the Greek text of the New Testament Did you know that God saves some now, and reconciles all others later? The Bible says that the living God is "the savior of all men, especially of those who believe" 1Tim. 4:10.
The Bible tells us that Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due season" 1Tim. 2:6, and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" 1Cor. 15:22
tonythatjesusloves 3 years ago
Why would God not show himself completely if the circumstances were so dire? He's is just testing us? It's a test and if you fail you get tortured eternally? That seems very twisted. I mean if you really get a choice between heaven and hell then wouldn't it be fair to show both sides of the table? What about all of the remote peoples that never heard the word of Christ? They are doomed for not living on the Eurasian continent? If God is fair he will show both sides clearly, if there are 2 sides
Matthitizidu 3 years ago
My Analogy for a Vengeful God is; You have two choices you can be friends with me or you can choose to not be friends with me. I'm a very kind person. If you choose not to be friends with me however I'm going to kill and mutilate you. You have free will though, whatever you want to choose. That's not really free will, that's do it or else.
Matthitizidu 3 years ago 2
Not many address the animals of the world. They live out their lives in beauty and did not eat of the tree. are they all going to be saved? They cannot speak, any language we understand any way. Are Humans the only ones to be saved? Animals have a soul so is it going to the pits of hell? I don't believe in a Loving/Vengeful God so I'll come right out and say it. I actually don't know what I believe completely> I know I don't believe in a vengeful God though.
Matthitizidu 3 years ago
If the Parable were literal then all sinners would be punished in the Valley of Gehenna forever. A stinking garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.
That makes sense. NOT!
Read Col 1:1 through -20 carefully.
Study 1:16 and 1:20 closely.
The work of the cross was fulfilling his goal of reconciling all things unto himself .
all things that God created. And nothing was created that wasn't created by God.
GenMata 3 years ago
You are not going back far enough in your research. You must look at original scriptures of Hebrew and Aramaic to find the originals.
Greek text did not use the word Eternal as was placed in the Cathlolic books and KJV. HeLL was also added..
Eons was used and has a time restraints.
Eons of the eons. Age of the ages.
There are seven ages described in the bible.
Read Col 1. Carefully.
1:16 Satan and demons falls into this verse.
1:20
Reconciliation of all things unto himself.
GenMata 3 years ago
William Tyndale died to give you the Bible, and you make such ridiculous accusations like he didn't know how to translate Aion correct? I don't know where you people get this history from but it's not the history of Bible translation that I was taught.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Bishop Peter Boehler (1712-1775)spread the teaching of universalism from central europe to England and the American colonies and his influence helped john Wesley (1703-1791) the founder of Methodism to become sympathetic towards the idea of universal reconciliation in his latter years.
Universalism is still very strong within Methodism
tonythatjesusloves 3 years ago
Of course, and that is why Methodism became a religion with just the form of godliness, and not the true power. After-all, why battle so hard against sin if you are going to make it anyway? Why bother to inconvenience yourself to save souls if they get in anyway? Therefore people became lukewarm and the movement lost it's power. This doctrine is always seasonable where there is no Spirit fire. Once the fire of the baptism falls again this teaching will again fall into obscurity.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
or maybe This is what Jesus taught and if you google universalism in the early church you would find this to be the case, you seem to underestimate God while slandering his personality , if you said this sort of stuff about my dad i,d give what for so don't call my heavenly dad a psychopath torturing monster you cad !!! this sort of stuff just isnt cricket.!!!!
tonythatjesusloves 3 years ago
Wow, you really showed something here..."why battle against sin if you are going to make it anyway"? Let me tell you something, brother. I NEVER NEVER NEVER "battle against sin" to avoid some retribution. The spirit of Christ is within me, transforming me from the inside out. I can choose to not cheat on my wife out of fear, but I can't choose to love someone! I'm powerless to change who I am. Do you really live the christian life because you may not "make it"???
djewnn 2 years ago
The Bible requires 100% obedience to the commandments of God. Men are powerless due to their inbred corruption to obey those commandments. But man can not trust in God until he has given up all hope to be able to obey the commands himself. He can not give up hope in himself, until he tries in his own strength and fails. Once frustration overcomes him, he will realize that he is in need of a saviour. Then he is able to come to the end of himself and trust God.
JohnWesleyMethodist 2 years ago
This is the route that all almost all men take, save the deathbed conversions. God is able to convert a man the moment he has lost all hope in himself and this world. But for a healthy and strong man, who has confidence in himself, he must take to striving to obey the commandments and fail. Only then can he realize his own inbred corruptions are too great for him, and throw himself upon God for mercy.
JohnWesleyMethodist 2 years ago
Well, being raised in the Nazarene/Wesleyan holiness tradition myself, I recognize someone absolutely committed to Wesley's opinions. Let me ask you something, have you been "sanctified" or experienced "Christian perfection"?
djewnn 2 years ago
I haven't yet, but I believe I will and that God is moving me closer to that regularly. Recently God taught me that faith is a practical thing. Not just believing the cross and resurrection, but also believing for daily necessities. Regardless whether or not I have had the experience, many Godly men have in recent years. Men like musician Keith Green and preacher Leonard Ravenhill had this experience.
LicentiaBJ 2 years ago
let me re-phrase......my question was rhetorical. NO ONE has had this experience! Let me explain. The feast of pentecost celebrated the time when moses wrote the law on tablets of stone. It was fulfilled 50 days after Jesus' death (passover) when the Holy Spirit wrote the law on their hearts..BUT(!!!) Pentecost was a feast with LEAVEN....leaven is a symbol of carnality. During this age.....life in the Spirit is still mixed with our old nature until "Tabernacles" is fulfilled. Study this!
djewnn 2 years ago
William Tyndale and others did a great job of fighting against The beast. But they weren't perfect. What man was? Christ..
Read the original scriptures, find the word HEll in the Hebrew/Aramaic scripture. You won't. Where did these guys get the word? Corrupt versions.
Luther, Tyndale and others couldn't agree on everything as with most things men debate.
They carried on with the fictitious Hell of the Egyptian book of the dead passed on to Catholics and some greek versions.
GenMata 2 years ago
universalism was THE primary doctrine of the church until it was forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the 6th century. 4 of the 6 theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism, and only 1 supported eternal damnation.
boomac62 3 years ago
The reasons for believing in universal reconciliation go so far past the translation of "aion". One place people should BEGIN studying these things is the Torah. Has anyone stopped to realize that God set it up so that NO debt remains outstanding forever? Read Lev. 25..if a man is NOT redeemed by a kinsman redeemer, he is set free at the year of Jubilee. Well, just like passover was fulfilled, one day...creation will experience its Jubilee. God forbid we read His Law for understanding.
djewnn 3 years ago 2
Anyway Flav, good debate! Unfortunately anyone can grab a group of scriptures that support their view, so long as they leave out scriptures that are contrary to their view. At the end of the day, it is up to each of us to make an interpretation, and I will stand with the old saints and their interpretation. For the world's sake, I hope you are right. But for my sake, I will stay my course, because if I am wrong, I have lost nothing, but instead have a great reward to look forward to. Take care!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Good talking to ya bro,its just sad how many Christians,rely on doctrines of religious leaders instead of listening to the voice of the apostles, keep up the good faith God is with you always.God bless.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
No scripture refutes Universal Salvation better than this:
...and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. Rev 16:10-11
"Men gnawed their tongues in agony, and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done!" - Thomas Watson
This proves conclusively that Hellfire won't refine anyone, instead causing them to hate God the more.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I guess you did not notice that Rev.16 is way before the final jugdment Rev.20,all the dead will be ressurected to be jugded th same way you and I are now ,JUGDMENT must start with the house of the lord,next the rest of the world,we were in the same state as the world but Christ is saving us first,the first fruits than the rest of the evil in men is burned in the lake of fire,and the last to be destroid is death 1rst Cor.15-26 so God can be ALL in SOME? No, all in all.All will confess and bow.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living
God, Who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe" - I Tim. 4:10.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
"Faithful is this saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS ..."1 Tim.15 .All have sinned,there is none that seeks God.Oh but when they die they are lost forever,the prodigal son was LOST but now is found,was DEAD but now alive,the 99 are safe so He will go after the LOST one.The father sent...(greek-Apostellos)sent out in a mission...the son to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD,so God can be all in all.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
That is talking about Flesh.. Now does Flesh enter heaven? Absolutely not.
HEll is not in the original scriptures.
Put away the tainted KJV And read the real scriptures.
Yeshua never said HELL or HELL FIRE
Gehenna fire was used and was a garbage dump that all Isrealites knew about. See Hosea for Valley of Hinnon or Gehenna.
The Rabbis had said they thought Gehenna would be a great place to punish evil doers.
Christ used that in his parable.
A Parable were not literal.
GenMata 3 years ago
God forbid I listen to any modern preacher, and I refuse too, except Keith Green. This is the Laodicean church and we are so wise! We have no fruits like the old saints, but we know better. They read Greek and Hebrew in Kindergarten but indeed we know it better than they! Many men risked and lost their lives to translate the bible but they did it wrong, now we have better translations like the YLT that are far superior to the works of the old saints. God forbid we be so foolish!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Keith was a true follower of Christ with a true heart for the lost ,I wish he was here to see how far this superficial gospel has come,I have all his music.Any how if you like the saints of old check what the king James tells us in 1 Tim 2-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Also, Flav. Suppose you are right and I am wrong. Do I lose anything for being wrong? Have I not then striven with all my heart to snatch as many souls out of Hell as possible? Will I not have great reward in heaven? But if I am right and you wrong, and those who hold your position, what of the souls that weren't reached due to carelessness? Maybe you walk in sincerity, but how many that hold your doctrine do so because they love their sins? Too risky to hold your view for myself and the lost.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I can see in your comments you fear for the lost as if you could save the world,Christ saving the world does not change the message,those that believe will be saved those that not will be condemned,but to eternal hell?only in bibles that have been adulterated it tells such things,do a research on the word aionion=pertaining to an age,which they trans.forever and ever,everlasting etc...and see for your self the mess they made out of it.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
I have done research on Aion, Aionis and Olam and am convinced that the words can mean either an age or an eternity. Plato for instance used the word Aion to describe both age and eternity. Strongs says that Olam can mean eternity. Also, you must realize, that if hell is not eternal, then neither is heaven. So the old saints rightly understood the definition of Aion to mean eternity. What foolishness to think that the great men of God who brought huge revivals read their Greek bibles wrong!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
well I told my wife I will be with her forever,but forever is until death due us apart,Flavio josephus used such word to describe the time betwin the law and his writings,not eternal,aionion God ,God of the ages,so when the ages are done will God die and all the saints?no because to us was given IMORTALITY not only aionian life 2 Tim 1-10.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
What pride this generation of lukewarm believers have in thinking they know better than the saints in the 1700s and 1800s. These old saints grew up reading Hebrew and Greek! Yet this generation is so much more educated and wiser! What pride we have, with our society in moral ruin to think the old saints had it wrong, when those men converted countries to Christ and stopped the moral slide. Because of Wesley and Wilberforce slavery ended in Britain. What similar good has any Universalist done?
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
If all men are saved, then you lose your motivation to convert them. You will back out of immediate suffering because you will feel that you will get saved regardless and so will the people you ought to convert. You will be unwilling to suffer as the Apostles did. I pray God bring persecution to our land, because then this doctrine will cease to exist. When persecution comes, only men who believe souls are lost for eternity will persist to the end.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
again John, can you convert anyone ? we are to preach the word,to feed the poor,to cloth the naked to love OUR ENEMIES,why love them if they are to be lost any way, according to foreknowledge God saw them not choosing wright? and still decided to form them,but why?can evangelicals answer these q.?Is His love eternal?Are His mercies eternal?IS the will of MORTAL men greater then God's will?what to men is impossible-save them selves,is not for the great king of glory.God bless.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Yes, by God's foreknowledge, not ours. So we preach to all creatures and love all men. Jesus preached to all and loved all though he knew he would be rejected and that is an example to us. The point is how men ought to be, not the result. Shall I treat someone poorly because foreknowledge knew they would reject God? Is this what Christ did? According to you God's love and mercies are only for an age, and death and hell are only tossed in the lake of fire for an age.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin." I know no gospel without salvation from self righteousness,did God's creation malfunctioned?Is Satan greater the the Great God?He chose us based on His foreknowledge wile we were still SINNERS, so did you chose Him out of your own carnal will?Did you do the work of the Holy Spirit convincing your self?for the carnal men CANNOT unders.the things of the spirit...The savior of the WORLD can't save the world. Bible please.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Yep, God's salvation is a salvation from self-righteousness. It is described here: Luke 1:74-75 "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." Yes, God first loved me, and His Spirit first called me, but I responded to His call. James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
James puts the work of drawing nigh to God upon us, not upon God. Everyday we have a choice, and our closeness to God is determined by us. If people are not close to God, and still carnal, then it is because they do not "Draw nigh to God." Heb 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." Is God to blame that they still need milk?
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
What you are now doing is accusing God that it is His fault for leaving the people Paul was writing to in a carnal state. You then disagree with James statement. We are constantly warned in the Bible about falling short: Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Why such warnings if we have no free will? God is waisting his time with these commands and warnings to us, if we can't choose to act contrary to them.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
in Is. is written that God declared(HE didn't see it)the END from the BEGINNING. so can we change what is written and make God a liar?can we make God change His plan every second because we keep on making choices that are not His plan? did David lied when he said ALL his days were written in God's book?can we choose the day we die? See Wesley no human being ever asked God to be born in this world ,but thats what it takes to live(Sptual body)we have to DIE first,no flesh no blood in heaven.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
I don't see how declaring the end from the beginning takes away human free will. We cannot change His plans because His plans are according to foreknowledge exactly as the scripture said. Why even mention forknowledge in the Bible if it was of no use to God, if He never required forknowledge for anything? Why? Why even mention the word if it had nothing to do with God's plans? What value is foreknowledge in election if God does not make determinations by it?
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Yes, He chose me. But it is no pride. He chose all men. He came to us to bring conviction and to reveal Himself to us. He brought us to the person that converted us and helped us to understand Him enough to receive Him in justification. He does it. Good gosh, how anyone thinks that free-choice can affect God's plan is beyond me. You limit God saying that he can't allow men to be free, lest they mess up His plans. Ridiculous!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I think the predominating theme from the "Universalist" camp, is of people who are trapped in sin, and who refuse to believe that God would condemn them for it. John Wesley said this: "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin." The Bible says that you people are dead to sin. Why do you not believe it? Faith overcomes the world. You need to start believing the whole Bible, and you will have complete freedom from sin. This is the truth that brings revival, which God gave to the Methodists.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Oh really, didn't we both slapped the savior in the face? you say the world deserves justice,so does you and me,we sin every day,don't forget where you came from.If you can answer this question I,ll start believing all these lies again .You say God chooses according to foreknowledge,how can a loving God knowing the future create billions that would suffer in Wesley's hell for all eternitissssssss? Didn't He know the so called lucifer was gona fell and bring most humanity to hell? Bible please.
uptownbrazilian 3 years ago
Who are you anyway? Why would someone pose a question to you? You are just makin stuff up. Do research first.
AlloNeson 3 years ago
Heresy? I think what you believe is heresy. And stop BSing. Explain the following scriptures please. "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:6)
Note the word ALL.
AlloNeson 3 years ago
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9)
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18)
AlloNeson 3 years ago
Is this not about free choice? Is this whole creation not about choosing or rejecting God according to our own choice? If universal reconciliation is correct than it is not about choice at all! It is just God's fun little game then. The people that really love God get in to heaven and the people that hate God are forced to accept Christ by torture and then they get in to heaven. I didn't realize that God was a brutal dictator who will force His enemies to be His friends.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I didn't realize that God was a brutal dictator who will force His enemies to be His friends.What do you call some one that burns billions of souls in your fable hell? do you call that love?Is God love or a brutal dictator?did you chose Him or did he choose you?Did you love Him first or did he loved you first?can you change what is written? Answer this questions and see where you stand!maybe your will is greater than than will of God,which makes you ONE.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Every man has a choice where they end up. Do right and live, do wrong and die. Not difficult. They choose it not God. Tell me... why would God cause men to fall into sin if not to give free choice? Why give Adam a don't unless to give free choice? If men have no free will then God would not have bothered letting them fall in the first place. What is the point of the fall if everyone is forced back to the heavenly state at the end of 'the age' as you would say? Is God having cruel fun?
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Yes, Peter knew exactly what the master said,you will deny me!don't you think he had enough time to change his fate?according to the free willers he had,but why didn't he John? Do you see any freedom there?Is a slave of sin free?what will your heaven be knowing some one you loved is being toasted for all eternitiesssssss by the God who is LOVE?Are you from Christ Jesus or J.Wesley? Blinded by tradition maybe? All the prodigals will come back! Are you mad your brothers will come?gET T. PARABLE?
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Whoa, you are way off man! Peter was suffering from Romans 7! He didn't do the things he wanted and did the things he hated. Christ fixed that on Pentecost when the Spirit came with power. Then Peter got up and preached with boldness, eventually dying on a cross upside down. The fullness of the Spirit is freedom from sin. John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin."
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
You accuse God of being a sicko to force people to fall into sin without any choice on their part, then to come and die on a cross for no reason because they needn't have fallen in the first place because you deny free will. Your theology makes no sense whatsoever. There is no explanation for the fall of man except for to give free choice and man makes his own choice, either accept or reject God. You say Christ died to save men when God never needed to make them fall in the first place. Sick!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
The only thing that's sick Methodist is your comments. You claim that God does not choose who will be saved, contrary to many scriptures that say the opposite. Jesus told the disciples "No man can come to me UNLESS the Father draws him." He also said, "you have not chosen me I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." Paul affirms this when he said "no man can say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Ghost 1 Cor 12:3. Also, "God has FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN you to salvation" 2 Thess 3:13.
XposeTheLie 3 years ago
And Jesus also said, "many are called, but few are chosen," he didn't say "few CHOOSE." You have made an idol of this thing called "free will," which is not scriptural at all. God cannot be sovereign nor omnipotent if our "free will" can thwart his plan. It's too bad that you are too blind to see how ridiculous your arguments are, and how you ignore plain scripture regarding God's sovereignty in place of a mythical and unscriptural concept known as "free will"
XposeTheLie 3 years ago
You keep harping on people who don't choose God, when there are and were millions of people who never even heard of Jesus. Babies have died before they can even THINK of choosing God. Millions of people in third world countries have not had the gospel preached to them, yet you believe that everyone who's ever drew breath have had the same chance to "choose" God as you have. It shows how pompous and self righteous you are.
XposeTheLie 3 years ago
And another sad thing is...you fully believe in "free will" and believe that people who sin will "go to hell," yet I guarantee you that you sin just as much, if not more, than any person who doesn't believe in Jesus. What's your excuse for that? Why doesnt your blessed "free will" keep you from sinning? Why do you STILL sin even when you know that it's wrong, and you supposedly have the "free will" NOT to sin? This is why Jesus called people like you HYPOCRITES
XposeTheLie 3 years ago
Nothing is more preposterous than the idea that God, who knows the end from the beginning, would create billions of people whom he KNOWS will end up being tortured in "hell" for eternity, and calling this act loving and just. You claim that it's "brutal" to "torture" people and make them believe and be SAVED, yet it's NOT "brutal" to torture someone for ETERNITY and NOT have a chance to be saved. What a sick religion you believe in
XposeTheLie 3 years ago
right on!!! I'm right there with you!!
God bless!
dafterlife 3 years ago
Read Romans 7, and then read the solution to this problem promised in Ezekial 36! Look at the change in Peter after Pentecost! This does not argue with free will whatsoever. John Wesley - "All the commandments of God he accordingly keeps, and that with all his might. For his obedience is in proportion to his love, the source from whence it flows. And therefore, loving God with all his heart, he serves him with all his strength."
John Wesley - "We know of no gospel without salvation from sin."
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Those are nasty allegations: "It shows how pompous and self righteous you are." You ought to judge righteously, and that means having all of the information before making a judgement. You don't know me well enough to make such a judgement. Nor do I think you know John Wesley's heart either, that he was neither pompous or self-righteous. I cannot answer what happens to them, except that God knows all, and is able with foreknowledge to lead men to Himself.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
You use this scripture: "many are called, but few are chosen," in contradiction to this scripture: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" You can not use one scripture to contradict another. Jesus says clearly that it is the people in Jerusalem who would not, not God who would not.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
You are a Calvinist, not a Universalist. There are a great many scriptures proving that Jesus came to die and save all men: 1 Tim 2:4, 1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 4:10 (1 Tim 4:10 is clear as day) Calvinism disagrees with all such scriptures and so you must cut them out of your Bible. Arminianism does not disagree with scriptures that support Calvinism, because as the Bible says: 1 Pet 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
"No man can come to me UNLESS the Father draws him." How does this disagree with Wesley? "you have not chosen me I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." How does this disagree with Wesley? "no man can say Jesus is Lord BUT by the Holy Ghost" How does this disagree with Wesley? "God has FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN you to salvation" Elect by foreknowledge, yep, agrees with Wesley. I am unsure what conclusion you are attempting to draw with those scriptures...
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I call Him a Just God: Psalm 89:14 (KJV) Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. God gives men a choice and rewards them accordingly Rev 22:12. He calls us first, but we must respond. The choice is ours. Hey Flav, if I were to slap you upside the head, would you not desire justice from God against me? Would you feel loved by God if He didn't avenge you? So justice is part of love. Inseperable. Without justice God loves no man.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
you tell me is just for a loving God to burn billions of people including young ones,including many that had never heard the gospel, including people in countries that don't know Christ ever walked this earth, including people that had less chances than others(they lived shorter lives)Just because you and I were given mercy before them,it don't mean we deserve it and you act like you do.What will your heaven be knowing your loved ones are being burned alive? SICK theology.Bible please.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Arguing that we have a choice, doesn't mean we deserve the choice, else grace isn't grace and we are saved by works, not by faith. But Christ did not die in vain. Predestination by foreknowledge does not void God's plan, because God's plan is based on His foreknowledge. He knows who will choose Him and who won't, and He knows what those unborn children would choose if they had the chance to live. Love includes justice. I will be satisfied that my loved ones who hated God are receiving justice.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."the reason for such warnings is that God can only judge us if His word is spoken,of course he knows our actions what you and i will decide shortly,every one makes choices they are just not free,nothing that is caused is free,if He command us to love Him,those that don't can be judged for the word was spoken we repent because His goodness leads us to repentance OUR WILL?or His goodness?
flavmusicman 3 years ago
His goodness sends His' Spirit to convict us and enable us to repent. Look at your daily experience, if you are wandering from God, you feel the Spirit come and tell you to get right with God. You then make a choice what you will do.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
His goodness sends His' Spirit to convict us and enable us to repent.You then make a choice what you will do. Now see if the choice you made was free from nothing or caused?You are wright,it is His' Spirit that convict us and enable us to repent, so He is the very cause you and I believe the savior, a will yes but not a free will,and we are still responsible for our actions,but responsibility to save us is God's alone.He made the wound so He himself will heal us through spiritual fire.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
I will be satisfied that my loved ones who hated God are receiving justice. How can God breath his life even into the unborn knowing that they will in the future not choose Him,but he still let them live for a wile than send them to Hell?how much more umbilical can you get.Christ's followers(thats you and me)asked Him to send fire and kill the Samaritans and He said to US:The son of men DID NOT come to destroy the souls of men but to save them,you see HE still loves your unloved ones.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Predestination by foreknowledge? so if He saw you choosing and then chose you ,Christ lied when HE said I have chosen you ,not we Him,He loved us first not we,and if this is true grace was based on our part not God's and this my friend is not grace,how long will it take for believers to understand that chastising, punishment,hard words,furnace of fire,lake of fire,death,second death,death to self,tribulation,etc... are part of being created in His image and likeness.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
How much does God command us to love Him? Luke 14:26-27 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." I will be satisfied, that if my loved ones hate my God whom I love with all my heart, that they will receive the penalty for their sins, and deservedly so! They despise the God of love!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
I dare suggest flav, that perhaps your heart is still on the things of this world. I am not self-righteous to say this, because I have walked away from and embarrassed the Lord a thousand times. God still humbles me regularly. I used to think like you, but now my thinking is more in line with God: Psalm 15 "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?" The one: "In whose eyes a vile person is contemned." That goes for family/loved ones also!
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
yes I have also embarrassed God many times thinking I could save myself and He humbled me showing me salvation is His alone,and that I stand because of Him not me,and that Grace was not based on what I did but was according to His will,and that Christ is a powerful savior that will finish His work,SAVE THE WORLD,the cross was just the beginning,if human will is greater than God's it means that we are gods,wht He wills must happen and it is to have ALL men saved.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
He wills all men to be saved, but I can't agree that they all will be. God wants people to choose Him and praise Him. Willing people, not robots, else He is not glorified and accomplishes nothing. But when we willing choose Him, it justifies all of His' actions and proves His character as just and good.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago
Just another one for you. The kingdom of heaven was prepared for us before the world began, the word of God tells us so,but remember that Adam and Eve was FLESH and BLOOD and Paul tells us that FLESH and BLOOD can not inherit the Kingdom,do you still believe that God didnt know w. was happening?or did he meant the fall for the good of men?I'll stay with the truth,God wounded the world so He himself will heal us.
flavmusicman 3 years ago
Would there not be people, after being in this fire - at the end of the lake of fire age - who would hate God? Does suffering unbearable agony from someone usually cause the person suffering to have great love for the one who causes the suffering? What would happen to people that still reject God after being in the lake of fire? Do they go back in for another age of fire? Keep putting them back in until they willing accept God? This idea is preposterous.
JohnWesleyMethodist 3 years ago