@th3gtr0 Amtrak. No one rides it except in the Northeast Corridor which has the proper population density for it. No one will ride it out west where there's fewer people. What will they do without their car when they get off the train?
@pete5668 Actually, people do ride Amtrak out in the west. Have you heard of the Capitol Corridor, San Joaquin, and Pacific Surfliner? These three lines are in the top 5 busiest passenger routes in the nation. All of these lines have been gaining ridership for the last couple of years. Amtrak is also a very bad comparison to systems such as JR Central and SNCF. Amtrak is barely funded. In contrast, JR Central, one of six successors to JNR, is a profit-producing private corporation and
@pete5668 SNCF is better funded than Amtrak. Your use of the term West is too general. Where in the west do you think high-speed rail will be built? Between Tahoe and Carson City? Nope. They're building one between the San Francisco Bay Area and the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area. The two main highways that go between these two metropolitan areas are I5 and US101, and each has a daily ridership of 299,000 and 308,000, respectively. These statistics are from the 90's, so the ridership now
@pete5668 is probably higher. In aviation traffic, a study by the Metropolitan Policy Program found that "the metro Los Angeles-San Francisco corridor, stretching 347 miles, is the second busiest corridor in the country." It also found that "half of the country's flights are routes of less than 500 miles , and the busiest corridors are between the metropolitan air travel centers." California, as of now, has 38 million people. That number is expected to reach 42 million in 2020 and 46
@th3gtr0 million by 2030. The proportion of people living in cities is increasing, with the figure for Americans at .75 right now. If we count by counties, the US Bureau of the Census found in 2000 about 9.5 million, 1.2 million, 2.8 million, .7 million, and 1.6 million people in Los Angeles County, Sacramento County, San Diego County, San Francisco County, and Santa Barbara County, respectively. So, yes there are people in the west. The San Francisco Bay Area has many public transportation
@pete5668 authorities and services. To name a few: MUNI, Caltrans, Amtrak, BART, and AC Transit. Los Angeles also has Metrolink, Metro Rail, LACMTA(buses), and Amtrak. People will have plenty of options when they get off the train. The problem is that these systems are so unconnected and decentralized in terms of planning that it will be too confusing for a tourist to figure out which line to take. An America 2050 study created a list of city-pairs most appropriate for high-speed rail.
The city-pairs were determined from an index that factored in variables such as distance, population, existing public transit options, economic productivity, and congestion. Out of 27,000 nationwide city-pairs that were listed, the city-pair of Los Angeles and San Francisco was fifth on the list with a score of .9643 out of 1. There is a market between the metropolitan areas in California, a western state. People do have options without their car. SF, LA, SJ, Sac, Fresno, Bakersfield, and
@pete5668 San Diego do have population densities that are adequate for high-speed rail. There is a possibility that the California High-Speed Rail system(CHSR), if successful, may be extended through the California Inland Empire and Arizona Sun Corridor to Phoenix. There is a greater possibility that the CHSR will connect with the proposed DesertXpress, which is a another high-speed rail line that will connect Las Vegas with Southern California. 5 million travel from Southern California to
@pete5668 Las Vegas every year, and this is a 30 year old statistic. Las Vegas now has 4 million people and is still growing. I don't know why people call high-speed rail a boondoggle. The Tokaido Shinkansen in Japan has been making a profit since 1966. SNCF has reported it recovered its investments in the TGV. Deutsche Bahn is making a profit as well. What would happen if do not invest in high-speed rail? To handle the projected increase in transportation demands in the next few decades,
@pete5668 California would have to increase the capacity of its highways and airports, an option that would cost twice as much as high-speed rail and is guaranteed to require federal funds. The CHSR has the potential to operate on a profit, like other systems around the world. Also, the American taxpayers are paying $30-60 billion every year to maintain their roads and highways. I think high-speed rail is a sound investment for the future.
@th3gtr0 There are no car rental cos near train stations like there are at airports. Americans need cars ultimately because they like to be in control of where they go and when they go there. Central planning doesn't work because Americans will never allow govts to control where they go and when they go. The Soviets tried it and how did it work out for them? Not too well. High speed rail lines and other public transportation lines are just ways for the govt to control every aspect of your life.
@pete5668 "There are no car rental cos near train stations like there are at airports." How the hell is that relevant to what we were arguing about? We're talking about mass transportation. I've heard that "Americans love their cars" argument over and over and over again. And, frankly it doesn't make sense. During the first half of the 20th century, by what mode of transportation did Americans get around by? It was trains! The entire nation used to be crisscrossed by dozens of tracks
@pete5668 that were owned by PRIVATE railroads! That means that they didn't build lines or run trains if no revenue were to be made. Americans do not use cars simply because they love it. They use it because it's been made the most convenient by these oil, tire, car corporations. Have you ever heard of the Great American Streetcar Scandal? In the early 20th century, every large American city used to have a well used light rail system, and guess which US city had the largest? Surprisingly,
@pete5668 Los Angeles had the largest system. But these oil, truck, and car corporations created a holding company called National City Lines. National City Lines bought these light rail lines in every American city and either pulled up the tracks or made service so bad that it forced people to switch to cars and buses(which use tires and are less fuel efficient than trolleys). That's conspiracy! That's not a pure free-market system which America so religiously upholds! Today, oil companies
@pete5668 tires manufacturers, and car and truck manufacturers have almost a monopoly on transportation in this country. That is not one of the main elements that make up a healthy free-market industry. This system is being made because there is DEMAND, not because central planning dictates the necessity of it. If you didn't know, Californians voted for HSR back in 2008. Proposition 1A. Look it up. And also, HSR rail is not going to restrain your life. It's actually going to make it more
@pete5668 free because its providing Americans another option to travel by. Right now, Americans have two ways to cover mid-distance journeys between cities. Road and airway. Roads are convenient for journeys under 100 miles. Anymore and it starts to take too long. Air travel is optimal for distances of 600 miles and over. Any less, and it's not worth the two hours checking in, customs, and waiting, 10-30 min taxi time, and another 1 hour for baggage. And then, you have to realize that
@pete5668 airports are usually placed miles away from the city center. For example, Tokyo Narita Airport in Japan is literally a 1 hr drive from the center of Tokyo. It's 60 miles away! High-speed rail is most optimal for distances between 100 miles and 600 miles because it is faster than cars and takes less time to depart than aircraft. And I have already shown to you that there is DEMAND for transportation service between SF and LA. This is not the government trying to control your life.
@th3gtr0 It is not the government trying to control your life TODAY, but as soon as the trains are built, the government will offer incentives to the HSR companies to maintain the routes, while intentionally allowing the highway system to fall into disrepair, claiming lack of funding. They will do this to force Americans out of their cars and once they are on the trains it will be easier to herd the dissenters of the one world government to the prison camps for processing.
@pete5668 "The government will offer incentives to the HSR companies to maintain the routes, while intentionally allowing the highway system to fall into disrepair, claiming lack of funding. They will do this to force Americans out of their cars." This is a ridiculous statement. Who funds politicians' campaigns? Who helps them get into office? Who's bought up all of the policy makers in Washington? The corporations. I'm pretty damn sure oil companies, tire manufacturers, and car and truck
@pete5668 manufacturers are objecting to people shifting to mass transit because they're going to lose customers. As for the government forcing us to do something, that's what it's been doing since the 1950's. Cars have a monopoly in transportation in the US. The feds are giving subsidies to oil companies. We're paying $8 billion a MONTH to secure the oil in the Middle East. This is all to make the price of gasoline artificially low, so it's too convenient for Americans to travel by
@pete5668 anything but car. If you're going to blame anyone for controlling your life, blame the corporations because they've practically bought the government and over 50% of the news agencies that tell you they're "fair and balanced" and report nothing that is against their owners making money, e.g. high-speed rail. Another thing is that JR Central is a PRIVATE corporation that reports a profit from running the Tokaido Shinkansen. It is something that corporations can look into to make money.
@pete5668 And who did I say has bought up all of the lawmakers in the government? The corporations! Did you not read my previous posts? Who makes the largest contributions to political candidates? Corporations! If you get elected to office, and some corporation who helped you get into office calls you up to ask for favors, what do you think you'll do? You're right. The corporations don't make the laws. They use their tremendous financial power to influence the government to pass laws to
@pete5668 favor them. These laws often are not beneficial to the average American, but only to the wealthy few. And they're doing a good job screwing us over. Cutting public services and blaming public workers for the public debt, yet we're spending over $600 billion on the military every year.
@pete5668 I looked at some of the videos on that site and there were many flaws in them. For example, one of the videos said that "there was not a single profitable system in the entire world." That is completely incorrect. The Tokaido Shinkansen, which started service in 1964, has been running at a profit since 1966, and it completely paid itself off in 1971. The Paris-Lyon TGV line started making a profit in the late 1980s, and has recently paid itself off. Then the video goes on to say
@pete5668 that Californians thought they were voting for an environmental impact analysis for high-speed rail. That is also completely incorrect. The environmental impact analysis for the system had been occurring 12 years before the proposition was voted on in 2008. It was finally ready in 2008. Here's a quote from the proposition: "To provide Californians a safe, convenient, affordable, and reliable alternative to driving and high-gas prices . . . shall $9.95 billion in bonds be issued
@pete5668 to establish a clean, efficient high-speed train service linking Southern California, the Sacramento/San Joaquin Valley, and the San Francisco Bay Area . . ." Californians knew they were voting for the real deal, not just for an environmental impact analysis, which again had taken place the previous 12 years already.
high speed rail is a boondoggle that no one will ride.
pete5668 1 year ago
@pete5668 What observations and evidence leads you to that conclusion?
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 Amtrak. No one rides it except in the Northeast Corridor which has the proper population density for it. No one will ride it out west where there's fewer people. What will they do without their car when they get off the train?
pete5668 10 months ago
@pete5668 Actually, people do ride Amtrak out in the west. Have you heard of the Capitol Corridor, San Joaquin, and Pacific Surfliner? These three lines are in the top 5 busiest passenger routes in the nation. All of these lines have been gaining ridership for the last couple of years. Amtrak is also a very bad comparison to systems such as JR Central and SNCF. Amtrak is barely funded. In contrast, JR Central, one of six successors to JNR, is a profit-producing private corporation and
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 SNCF is better funded than Amtrak. Your use of the term West is too general. Where in the west do you think high-speed rail will be built? Between Tahoe and Carson City? Nope. They're building one between the San Francisco Bay Area and the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area. The two main highways that go between these two metropolitan areas are I5 and US101, and each has a daily ridership of 299,000 and 308,000, respectively. These statistics are from the 90's, so the ridership now
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 is probably higher. In aviation traffic, a study by the Metropolitan Policy Program found that "the metro Los Angeles-San Francisco corridor, stretching 347 miles, is the second busiest corridor in the country." It also found that "half of the country's flights are routes of less than 500 miles , and the busiest corridors are between the metropolitan air travel centers." California, as of now, has 38 million people. That number is expected to reach 42 million in 2020 and 46
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 million by 2030. The proportion of people living in cities is increasing, with the figure for Americans at .75 right now. If we count by counties, the US Bureau of the Census found in 2000 about 9.5 million, 1.2 million, 2.8 million, .7 million, and 1.6 million people in Los Angeles County, Sacramento County, San Diego County, San Francisco County, and Santa Barbara County, respectively. So, yes there are people in the west. The San Francisco Bay Area has many public transportation
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 authorities and services. To name a few: MUNI, Caltrans, Amtrak, BART, and AC Transit. Los Angeles also has Metrolink, Metro Rail, LACMTA(buses), and Amtrak. People will have plenty of options when they get off the train. The problem is that these systems are so unconnected and decentralized in terms of planning that it will be too confusing for a tourist to figure out which line to take. An America 2050 study created a list of city-pairs most appropriate for high-speed rail.
th3gtr0 10 months ago
The city-pairs were determined from an index that factored in variables such as distance, population, existing public transit options, economic productivity, and congestion. Out of 27,000 nationwide city-pairs that were listed, the city-pair of Los Angeles and San Francisco was fifth on the list with a score of .9643 out of 1. There is a market between the metropolitan areas in California, a western state. People do have options without their car. SF, LA, SJ, Sac, Fresno, Bakersfield, and
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 San Diego do have population densities that are adequate for high-speed rail. There is a possibility that the California High-Speed Rail system(CHSR), if successful, may be extended through the California Inland Empire and Arizona Sun Corridor to Phoenix. There is a greater possibility that the CHSR will connect with the proposed DesertXpress, which is a another high-speed rail line that will connect Las Vegas with Southern California. 5 million travel from Southern California to
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 Las Vegas every year, and this is a 30 year old statistic. Las Vegas now has 4 million people and is still growing. I don't know why people call high-speed rail a boondoggle. The Tokaido Shinkansen in Japan has been making a profit since 1966. SNCF has reported it recovered its investments in the TGV. Deutsche Bahn is making a profit as well. What would happen if do not invest in high-speed rail? To handle the projected increase in transportation demands in the next few decades,
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 California would have to increase the capacity of its highways and airports, an option that would cost twice as much as high-speed rail and is guaranteed to require federal funds. The CHSR has the potential to operate on a profit, like other systems around the world. Also, the American taxpayers are paying $30-60 billion every year to maintain their roads and highways. I think high-speed rail is a sound investment for the future.
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 There are no car rental cos near train stations like there are at airports. Americans need cars ultimately because they like to be in control of where they go and when they go there. Central planning doesn't work because Americans will never allow govts to control where they go and when they go. The Soviets tried it and how did it work out for them? Not too well. High speed rail lines and other public transportation lines are just ways for the govt to control every aspect of your life.
pete5668 10 months ago
@pete5668 "There are no car rental cos near train stations like there are at airports." How the hell is that relevant to what we were arguing about? We're talking about mass transportation. I've heard that "Americans love their cars" argument over and over and over again. And, frankly it doesn't make sense. During the first half of the 20th century, by what mode of transportation did Americans get around by? It was trains! The entire nation used to be crisscrossed by dozens of tracks
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 that were owned by PRIVATE railroads! That means that they didn't build lines or run trains if no revenue were to be made. Americans do not use cars simply because they love it. They use it because it's been made the most convenient by these oil, tire, car corporations. Have you ever heard of the Great American Streetcar Scandal? In the early 20th century, every large American city used to have a well used light rail system, and guess which US city had the largest? Surprisingly,
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 Los Angeles had the largest system. But these oil, truck, and car corporations created a holding company called National City Lines. National City Lines bought these light rail lines in every American city and either pulled up the tracks or made service so bad that it forced people to switch to cars and buses(which use tires and are less fuel efficient than trolleys). That's conspiracy! That's not a pure free-market system which America so religiously upholds! Today, oil companies
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 tires manufacturers, and car and truck manufacturers have almost a monopoly on transportation in this country. That is not one of the main elements that make up a healthy free-market industry. This system is being made because there is DEMAND, not because central planning dictates the necessity of it. If you didn't know, Californians voted for HSR back in 2008. Proposition 1A. Look it up. And also, HSR rail is not going to restrain your life. It's actually going to make it more
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 free because its providing Americans another option to travel by. Right now, Americans have two ways to cover mid-distance journeys between cities. Road and airway. Roads are convenient for journeys under 100 miles. Anymore and it starts to take too long. Air travel is optimal for distances of 600 miles and over. Any less, and it's not worth the two hours checking in, customs, and waiting, 10-30 min taxi time, and another 1 hour for baggage. And then, you have to realize that
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 airports are usually placed miles away from the city center. For example, Tokyo Narita Airport in Japan is literally a 1 hr drive from the center of Tokyo. It's 60 miles away! High-speed rail is most optimal for distances between 100 miles and 600 miles because it is faster than cars and takes less time to depart than aircraft. And I have already shown to you that there is DEMAND for transportation service between SF and LA. This is not the government trying to control your life.
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 It is not the government trying to control your life TODAY, but as soon as the trains are built, the government will offer incentives to the HSR companies to maintain the routes, while intentionally allowing the highway system to fall into disrepair, claiming lack of funding. They will do this to force Americans out of their cars and once they are on the trains it will be easier to herd the dissenters of the one world government to the prison camps for processing.
pete5668 10 months ago
@pete5668 "The government will offer incentives to the HSR companies to maintain the routes, while intentionally allowing the highway system to fall into disrepair, claiming lack of funding. They will do this to force Americans out of their cars." This is a ridiculous statement. Who funds politicians' campaigns? Who helps them get into office? Who's bought up all of the policy makers in Washington? The corporations. I'm pretty damn sure oil companies, tire manufacturers, and car and truck
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 manufacturers are objecting to people shifting to mass transit because they're going to lose customers. As for the government forcing us to do something, that's what it's been doing since the 1950's. Cars have a monopoly in transportation in the US. The feds are giving subsidies to oil companies. We're paying $8 billion a MONTH to secure the oil in the Middle East. This is all to make the price of gasoline artificially low, so it's too convenient for Americans to travel by
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 anything but car. If you're going to blame anyone for controlling your life, blame the corporations because they've practically bought the government and over 50% of the news agencies that tell you they're "fair and balanced" and report nothing that is against their owners making money, e.g. high-speed rail. Another thing is that JR Central is a PRIVATE corporation that reports a profit from running the Tokaido Shinkansen. It is something that corporations can look into to make money.
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 The corporations don't make the laws, son. The government does.
pete5668 10 months ago
@pete5668 And who did I say has bought up all of the lawmakers in the government? The corporations! Did you not read my previous posts? Who makes the largest contributions to political candidates? Corporations! If you get elected to office, and some corporation who helped you get into office calls you up to ask for favors, what do you think you'll do? You're right. The corporations don't make the laws. They use their tremendous financial power to influence the government to pass laws to
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 favor them. These laws often are not beneficial to the average American, but only to the wealthy few. And they're doing a good job screwing us over. Cutting public services and blaming public workers for the public debt, yet we're spending over $600 billion on the military every year.
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@th3gtr0 high speed boon doggle(dot)com/
pete5668 10 months ago
@pete5668 I looked at some of the videos on that site and there were many flaws in them. For example, one of the videos said that "there was not a single profitable system in the entire world." That is completely incorrect. The Tokaido Shinkansen, which started service in 1964, has been running at a profit since 1966, and it completely paid itself off in 1971. The Paris-Lyon TGV line started making a profit in the late 1980s, and has recently paid itself off. Then the video goes on to say
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 that Californians thought they were voting for an environmental impact analysis for high-speed rail. That is also completely incorrect. The environmental impact analysis for the system had been occurring 12 years before the proposition was voted on in 2008. It was finally ready in 2008. Here's a quote from the proposition: "To provide Californians a safe, convenient, affordable, and reliable alternative to driving and high-gas prices . . . shall $9.95 billion in bonds be issued
th3gtr0 10 months ago
@pete5668 to establish a clean, efficient high-speed train service linking Southern California, the Sacramento/San Joaquin Valley, and the San Francisco Bay Area . . ." Californians knew they were voting for the real deal, not just for an environmental impact analysis, which again had taken place the previous 12 years already.
th3gtr0 10 months ago