Quaint but inaccurate and it would take dozens of comments (Which you wouldn't post anyway) to address all the various inaccuracies. One simple point is until the 15th Cent. each individual Book of the Bible (And the Bible itself) was a hand copied version of a previous Bible which allowed of a lot of honest errors, as well as some creative editorial additions & omissions.So it was impossible for any 2 Bibles to say "Exactly" the same thing. Or at least until Gutenberg's printing press.
@coyoteself Thanks for respectfully presenting your statement. And to be brief, I completely agree with what you've said. But from my viewpoint given the history of the Protestant Bible (I can't say the same for the Catholic bible or Gnostic Gospels, or Jehovah's Witness translation etc.) I can stand by the statements made in these videos.
The old testament is the Hebrew bible and has nothing to do with christianity. Stop pretending that the jewish bible is connected to jesus. Jews do not accept jesus nor do they believe in him, he is a figment of white man's imagination.
@brute017 Clearly 10's of thousands of Jews at the time of Christ (as recorded in the New Testament & History) believed the Old Testament pointed to Jesus Christ.
@brute017 Jesus was a Jew. He was prophesied about in the Old Testament. Isaiah 52:13 - Isaiah 53. :) Jesus was the promise that God made to the children of Israel, he is our freedom & our salvation that God promised to the Jews & also to the Gentiles.
@brute017 Jesus not only confirms the accounts of the old testament, but confirms it to be divinely inspired. I understand that the atrocities committed in the old testament (by god) may conflict with your beliefs, but that doesn't mean you get to sweep it under the rug.
@Snarlarita Nothing. Read history about how and why the Papacy added those books in response to the protestant reformation (basically to try to uphold their own doctrines) and you'll understand why Protestants to this day reject those books.
They don't contradict? LOL Oh yes they do. In hundreds of places. And how can Moses write the books of Moses if it mentions his own death. Was he a corpse when he wrote it?
@Firearcher4 You're entitled to your opinion of course. What I've personally found is that they only contradict when a person INSISTS that it is meant to be understood a certain way. Scholars in general believe Moses did write the books of Moses...with exception to the chapters of his death, whom they believe Joshua wrote and added to his books. Common historical knowledge.
@MegaJay79 Hi. I've seen Bart Erhman's vids and read his books. He got a LOT of things wrong and is just espousing his particulart opinion on the matter. The Bible is perfectly harmonic when you don't INSIST on slamming your own interpretation into to it.
@MegaJay79 It's not that the gospels don't agree. Far from it. What we have are 4 testimonies of the events. It's no different than being in court today. If 4 people witnessed a crime and reported the EXACT same story... no difference in the minor details they may have picked up on... you would suspect something funny. It's is the minor differences to the overall event of the resurrection from different perspectives that gives the gospels some credibility. Ask any lawyer.
@sleanos But they aren't minor differences. Different people found the tomb, in one account there was an angel in another there wasn't, in one account many people rose from the grave, in the others they don't for eg. that would be an issue in court. They also wouldn't be acceptable in law because the gospels were written 30 - 70 yrs after events, they aren't witness accounts
@MegaJay79 I'll say it again, Just because one author describes an event slightly different than another is not reason in itself to dismiss what they say. They are writing from their own perspectives but ultimately filling in the details of the larger event at hand. And the gospels with the exception of Luke are eye witness accounts no matter how much time had passed and Luke investigated the events & witnesses himself to chronicle it.
@sleanos I'd agree with you, but they don't slightly differ they are huge events that contradict the gospels such as mass resurrections (should be in the 1st account), angels or no, different people finding the tomb (they should at least agree on this) the fact that that Pauls first account was so different in context to the others... this and the fact no historians of the time mention any of this is very worrying and does require honest reflection.
@MegaJay79 I'd agree. We agree to disagree, mainly because a youtube forum isn't very conducive to having an indepth discussion citing resources and statements, etc to investigate every point of controversary. Especially since it's already been done. The canonical Gospels are in harmony. The Apocryphal gospels, the Non-canonical gospels, the Jewish gospels and the Gnostic gospels are not and highly questionable and rightly so.
you are correct! but,the gnostics were among the first 'christians' and they believed that their teachings were the correct lessons of the christ. its a terrible sin against humanity that the catholic church murdered these people in the name of christ! may the prefects rise again and share their wisdom and love,and may the gospel of mary be studied without reprocussion! ....'for he kissed her on the mouth often'...!
@777azathoth Historically speaking yes they were among the many first Christians, but even before the Catholic church came on the scene we have much evidence as to the writings that were actually used by the early Christians in their homes and gatherings. Gnosticism writings are questionable from a protestant perspective. Even the apocrypha is suspect considering the Catholic church only added it to the bible in response to the protestant reformation.
@777azathoth Historically speaking they may be valid if you consider yourself a Gnostic. Those writings can not be found to have been used in the vast majority of christian congregations over the last 2000 years & actually contain statements that completely contradict both the Talmud & the NT Christian writings. The protestant bible (and it's sources) is the only book in Christendom that has the most historical, linguistic, anthropological & teleological support based on the evidence thus far.
@jroyals26 I think you were referring to point #3 on who wrote the last book of the bible. And yes we said it was John. Also we do not state these facts based on fringe or higher criticism/liberal scholarship (if that is why you object and are basing your statement on) but on the bulk of respected historical scholarship throughout church history and practically all agree it was John of the Gospel of John who write the book of Revelation in his old age.
@sleanos I really hope that wasn't you telling me to study a book of fairy tales, filled with unicorns, talking donkeys, parents that sell their children into slavery, great floods that NEVER HAPPENED and lets not forget stoning your child to death if he/she is bad. Oh the list goes on and on of the stupidity you have to defend when defending that bile. Why don't you study it and find out what's REALLY in it. Your reply pissed me off.
@MatHrtxC The countless volumes of research material written by respected scholars and historians from the fields of history, archaeology, linguistics, anthropology and theology over the last 2000 years.
what scholars, shcolars of what, which historians? Where are their notes, or their manuscripts? they must have left some trace of their investigation. and where is the source to THEIR investigation?
@MatHrtxC You're kidding right? When was the last time you went to a library or spoke to professors at universities to share with you the replete volumes of information available on this subject?
@sleanos That's far from answering my questions. I have talked to professors at highly catholic universities, all their arguements always end up being "because god did it".
Catholics feel superior to christians because "they actually do scientific research and philosophical studies", but all of it is still based on the same pre-protestant dogmas. so, this time i asked youtube and you answered. Again, that was far from answering my questions.
@MatHrtxC I understand what you're saying. I think you need to talk to non-Catholic Christians for some serious answers. I left the Catholic "Christian denomination" precisely because there answers are unreasonable and their practices I found are often in conflict with what the Bible plainly teaches. Lot more information available than just Catholic resources. Try reading Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith. get for $4 on amazon. Use as starting point.
I am going to create man and woman with original sin and commence operation "incest". Then im going to impregnate a woman with myself. so i can be born again. Once alive, i will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself, to save you from the sin i originally condemned you to. Makes perfect sense Christians...... -_-
@DoubleNNPM How about this instead... I am going to create man and woman perfect in every sense of the word but with the free will to choose whether to obey me or obey Lucifer. Because you were genetically perfect in the beginning and of a more noble stature than most of humanity today, there was no negative impact with incest back then as it affects us now.
@DoubleNNPM In order to save humanity, I (God the Father) will send my Son( God the Son) (as agreed by both voluntarily) into the world in human flesh to be one of you forever (yet still divine by origin & birthright) to show you how to live by My principles of love & justice & to give you My Spirit so that you may live with me forever after I come to judge the world in righteousness where every man woman &child will give an account for every thought, word & action done in their own lifetime.
@DoubleNNPM If you've seen Captain America or any hollywood movie, you'll know the best way to reach the hearts and minds of people without force, is to become one of them, experience what they have experienced, triumph in the end and give of oneself for others. Exactly what the Lord does for us.
@guns1312 Whatever you say. I wasn't always a Christian. In fact I've only become a Christian in my late adult hood because I put my bias aside for a moment and let the evidence speak for itself. (Arcaheology, history, bible prophecy & promises, the changed lives of those who believe, etc.)
@DoubleNNPM : And to one of my children when they were 3, they didn't understand why I would not eat cookies, share, make them go to bed, or change the oil in my car when I could be watching TV. What makes you think, in our teeny comprehension, we could completely grasp every aspect of the ALL KNOWING, EVER PRESENT GOD who created the universe? And by the way, who created the universe if not GOD, living outside of our time, space and cosmic understanding?
@DoubleNNPM Adam and Eve were not created with original sin. They were created without sin and as a result of there disobedience and lack of repentance to God for their actions the human race was cursed and by default we are all born with sin.
@anymaru D'oh. Look guys. You can believe or not believe. That is your choice. But come on. Don't be ignorant about it. Then you become what you ridicule. Even worse because you claim to be using pure reason!
The meaning of "eating of the fruit of the tree on knowledge of good and evil" being the "original sin" is due to the idea that without knowledge of good and evil it is impossible to sin. Further it isn't eating that is the sin, it is thinking knowledge makes you "as gods" or equal to God
@redddbaron Keep in mind that both the literal act of eating is sin because God said don't do it, but the issue is a heart/mind problem because they did not believe the words of God. Jesus taught the same very explicitly in the new testament when He used the example of lust and adultery for example. Moral issue = lust, causes us to commit the literal act + adultery. Control the mind, thoughts, heart, you control your actions.. which is why we need God in our lives to begin with.
I disagree. "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is symbolic of Mankind's development of a moral code. Without a moral code or concept of good and evil, there is no "sin".
The rest of your post is very relevant and true, but the literal eating of a symbolic fruit is a fallacy of logic and nothing more than an attempt to twist a symbol into a false literal doctrine.
@redddbaron I would agree with that. But that is key to understanding, sin is disobedience to anything God commands, regardless if we understand it or not or in the case of Adam & Eve, had become of away of it initially. The moral standards humanity has come to "know", "accept" or even supposedly "evolve" all have their origins "somewhere" and by definition as the Bible points out have always existed because true lasting standards of morality are the very nature of God's character.
I would like to point out 1 thing though. That idea "anything God commands, regardless if we understand it or not" is the slippery slope that has caused untold pain and suffering for generations.
One must be VERY careful about making sure what "God commands" is actually from God and not Men with ulterior motives. How much evil has been done in the world due to false claims that "God commanded it", when actually it was a Pope, King or false prophet, etc that commanded it?
If moses really excisted than where is his grave? Or that of king david, jesus or any important person in the bible? It seems to me that if someone like moses lived than after his death his people must have erected a shrine for him that lasts till today.
@funkeyfact Read the bible and/or the ancient documents of those people. It plainly reveals while for instance that Moses was buried on a mountain top but they have no idea where he is buried precisely so people would not make a shrine to Moses and eventually worship him. Look up an encyclopedia some time, we know the location of Jesus and King David's tomb.
@sleanos On a mountaintop? Could that be mount Kilimanjaro? And can you tell me where I can find the graves or tombes of king david, jesus barabbas and jesus the christ? You say I have to check out an encyclopedia, can you tell me which one? You know that seeing is believing... :)
@funkeyfact If you can figure out how to use youtube I'm sure you know how to look up information in any online encyclopedia. Could it be mount Kilimanjaro? Probably not. Why? Read the Bible, look at archaeology and the historical records on the manner. Step into any library and ask for Christian apologetic works and historical resources on linguistics and archaeology. I'm pointing you in the right direction, because 1) I don't have the time to spoon feed you & 2) I had to dig for the info also
@funkeyfact Moses's grave is in Mount Nebo in Jordan. David's Tomb,is on Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel. Jesus's burial was at Golgotha in Jerusalem..(Its empty)
@66tryker, Jesus was born a jew and the jews were his chosen people but then he died on the cross to save everyone from ther sins. If you woul actually read the bible you would see that you don't have a clue what your talking about
So what, what about all the horrible things in the old testament? rape, molestation, infanticide(killing of babies) suppression of women, slavery,murder. Christians think you have to be a Christian to get to haven right? Jesus was a freaken Jew! Besides, all the facts that were stated, doesn't mean it isn't FICTION!
@66tryker God did not command/condone anyone to rape, molest, murder or suppress anyone. As for the judgments.... are you God? Can you decree a perfect judgment according to every person's heart? Can you forsee the future of each of those lives? God did command the death of numerous nations.... but they where all prophesied hundreds of years in advance and the text indicates that those nations where given time to turn away from their evil practices (history clarifies their practices).
@Ardalla555 Excuse me? Where did God command anyone to rape another person? Please provide the scripture. Where did God command anyone to molest another person? Please provide the scripture. Where did God command anyone to murder another person? Please provide scripture and note their is a difference between the Creator (who knows the future and your heart) commanding execution/judging people which was predicted centuries before and commiting a blatan murder regardless if you disagree or not.
@sleanos Ah, so you are not allowing other opinions. That says a lot right there. Why don't you just create a dozen accounts and declare yourself to be a genius? NIce game, you can be the winner every time when you control the game.
@Ardalla555 Ah another ignorant comment. That's ok, ignorance can be fixed if one wants it. I block comments for approval so I can answer them in a timely fashion (this IS my personal youtube page after all) and so I can keep those with rather vulgar and explicit comments off since they have no respect for reasonably rational conversation. Or did I need your permission to have more control over my page?
@66tryker Slavery was not commanded (it wasn't required) by God, but He did give rules to govern the people at that time. And if you read the text carefully, it was actually servitutude and not slavery. It was a common practice back then that if one could not repay his debts they could enter servitude to work them off. Slavery as is more commonly understood within the last few hundred years was NOT the same as is described in the Bible under God's commands.
@66tryker Agreed. Jesus was a Jew, salvation is of the Jews. It's not "being" a Christian that saves us, but rather who we put our trust in that saves us. Jesus Christ. And I suppose you'll have to investigate the 3 main bible prophecy timelines, lookup historical records to substantiate it and then determine HOW the Bible could have so accurately predicted the future? This is one of the main reasons people put their trust in the Bible as fact. I'm reasoning with you..fair yes?
@nebula46 And people wonder why some comments have to be censored with ignorant talk like yours. Yes there IS a thing called science and when rightly understood does not conflict with what the bible teaches (although the bible is NOT a science text book). FYI: Most of the greatest minds of science throughout history were Christians or religious in some sense with a belief in God or the bible or something outside ourselves.
@Meurglys33 No arguments there. Trusting in the Savior, believing His word, and allowing His Words & Spirit to penetrate our minds and hearts as we yield our will to His transforms us into Christians or "Christ like".
@judowrestler1 1) It is generally accepted that Moses authored the 1st 5 books of the bible with exception to the very last chapter in Deuteronomy who most scholars attribute to Joshua who wrote about the death of Moses. Remember, the books were compiled together into "books" by scholars and theologians/teachers over years. They ORIGINALLY were all on scrolls, etc.
@judowrestler1 2) On the contrary, like any writing of antiquity we generally acknowledge the authorship as it appears in the writings unless otherwise indicated to which there is little to doubt of the original authors with exception to the Gnostic Gospels and other writings. The canon is well authenticated.
@sleanos the concept of intellectual property(writings) was for different in the aincient world. The fact that something has paul's name on it does not mean it was written by him. It could mean it was written in the style of paul, paul would agree with what was said etc.Even in the different writings with paul's name on it there are different views about the eschatology. In some places it says don't bother trying to figure out the day while in others it gives signs the second coming is near.
@judowrestler1 I wouldn't disagree with what you've said entirely. Yes it's true the "authors" of the books had others dictate. No different than authors today. But all the evidence in scripture gives clues and many times flat out tells us who wrote what. SO we give the benefit of the doubt to the bible writers as we would ANY OTHER author unless we have conclusion evidence to suggest otherwise. That is only fair.
@judowrestler1 And the last part you said is very accurate. Noone can know the exact day/hour of His second coming, but the Bible gives ALOT of indicators so we can know the times/season we are living in in regards to the second coming. We're living in the final "hours" of mankind whether that means another year... or another 50 years... noone knows exactly but it's close.
@humansaretheworld There is a lot of dualism in bible prophecy/spiritual truths and while some apply to His day, it can also refer to the future. There are many prophecies given in the bible that could not have been fulfilled until now, one of the longest ones was the prediction of the papl power reigning for over 1260 years. Then a number of signs follow to indicate where we are in bible history. Scripture says 1000 years is as a day with the Lord and vice versa.
@sleanos tis fits with time line of may21st 2011 being the day of the return of Jesus to get his....brother camping of family radio seems to have a good proof of tie line to follow form the signs given by the bible..so are you ready?
@Victoryisoursindeed I take it day by day to be ready to meet Jesus... but I don't believe the hoop-la about may 21st 2011 being "the day" of Jesus' return. Sorry. He could come before that or after.
@sleanos Also as far as the gospels go there is a vast amount of evidence that these circulated in the world for a long time without any particular name being attatched to them. These were later added in an effort to make them seem more authentic.
@judowrestler1 When was the last time you read the gospels. The book of Luke for example tells us it is Luke writing (even if dictated) The same can be said of the Pauline letters and practically every other book.
@sleanos Or maybe me and my research and verification of historical reality. This video is assuming a lot about authorship. It needs some serious fact checking before it should be calling these 'assumptions' facts.
@ShadeToSun hmmm.. you are one individual amongst hundreds if not thousands of biblical scholars & historians who would argue against you. Suffice it to say I'll stick with the scholars & historians instead of individuals such as yourself who claim contradiction or error. There is safety in tried and true research instead of fringe scholarship. But just for kicks, pick one fact and tell us why you believe it is in error.
@ShadeToSun You say much, what evidence do you bring. Pick up most bible translations and the bible translation houses are on one accord for the most part agreeing that it was Moses who wrote the 1st 5 books with exception to the last chapter in Deut describing the death of Moses (who the scholars believe to be Joshua). None the less, the evidence of the text itself and the extra biblical evidence points to Moses as the author. What credible evidence can you present against this?
@sleanos Also, you are making many assumptions about me. You are coming off as very arrogant and adversarial. No need for posturing. Simple, intelligent discourse will suffice.
@ShadeToSun I simply stated a fact. You are ONE individual probably citing skeptic and fringe scholarship studies against the entire religious & biblical foundations and respected historians of centuries past in terms of basic biblical knowledge. Much of the BASIC criticisms and arguments against the Bible's history and authorship have been laid to rest decades ago by historians and archaeologists against the same rehashed arguments of skeptics & unbeliever of which I used to be one.
@ShadeToSun No offense but you can spare me the "Christians" are ignorant, or not knowledgeable etc.etc.etc. I was an agnostic/atheist for most of my life and it wasn't until my adulthood that I seriously started looking into the question of Christianity against many other religions and philosophies. I've spent numerous years studying this question out are a sincere open minded and objective student just wanting to know "what is truth" when it comes to this topic.
@sleanos - That's pretty interesting. The opposite normally happens when someone is looking for the truth in the Bible. You start looking at a lot of the bible and realize that it doesn't answer questions of logic and reason. And that the times have changed with new information. Is not the bible edited heavily by the Catholic church during its time spent in Europe?
@ksniveegirl Yes if you're talking about the Catholic Bible which has been edited and is full of errors. This isn't the case with the Protestant bible which is confirmed accurate by the Jewish Torah, Dead Sea Scrolls, and 50000+ ancient documents.
@sleanos - I have curiously noted differences between the catholic and protestant bible; the main differences: The books of Judith, Tobie, Mcchabbé, Baruch some of Daniel and Esther doesn't exist in protestant bible. MATTHEW- verses 6-13 and 27-35 don't exist in catholic bible. MARK - verse 11-26 doesn't exist in catholic bible. LUKE - verse 1-28 doesn't exist in protestant bible. Verses 8-45; 9-56; 17-36, 24-42 are absent from catholic bible.
@ksniveegirl You should know your history as well that all these extra biblical books where primarily added during the time of the protestant reformation to uphold certain catholic teachings in response to that start of that movement. Those extra writings were rarely if ever actually used in the "Christian" churches for the centuries before the 15th/16th century.
@sleanos - ACTS - verses 8-37, 9-5, 9-6, 15-34, 24-6...etc are absent from catholic bible. APOSTLE- John 5-7 doesn't exist in protestant bible. The Torah contains: Genesus, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua. Christians take the Jewish Tanach and add their own Greek writing to it (ie 'New Testament') and call it their bible. How is this correct? And the Dead Sea Scroll (founded 1947) 5,000 other ancient documents have which accurate information?
@ksniveegirl Dead Sea scrolls uphold the Jewish Torah and Protestant Bible as being most accurate in translation not the Catholic Bible and the extra writings. Study bible prophecy in the Torah and the life of Christ and it becomes clear to most sincere seekers of truth that the Messiah foretold was indeed Christ. You have to remember, the original apostles including Jesus were Jewish (save Luke). The world gave the name Christian to Christ followers. It's still a Jewish religion.
@ShadeToSun And if I am coming off as arrogant or adversarial. Sorry. You caught me on a bad day. Do you think you're the ONLY one to try to tell Christians there faith is in error especially on a public forum like youtube?
sorry, you did post that comment ( i thought it didn't get through). Feel free to remove this one as well as the second repetition (the one that mentions Ecclesiastes).
And by the way, please feel free to let me know what specific accurate predictions you are referring to. I missed that part.
OK, I saw your chart. The first word that comes to mind - pareidollia. The dates aren't given by Daniel, this someone's idea to stretch it until it fits events that are interesting. People find similarities between Lincoln's and Kennedy's assassinations this way. I thought that maybe Daniel actually says how many YEARS till WHAT SPECIFIC event.
If this convinces you - great. I am not buying into it.
Websites for "own research" - I see 911 truthers do this. Don't go there.
@vdizhoor You've got to be kidding right? If I were to tell you that prophetically 1 day = 1 year and give you a 10 day "prophecy" and tell you it would not begin until a certain/specific building in a specific location was rebuilt, you're telling me that this is stretching? If I were to tell you the papal system will reign for 1260 years and under very specific circumstances and oh yeah, here are 10 very specific indicators as to the religious system I am referring to.. that is stretching it?
@sleanos Granted you may not choose to believe it, but there is no denying the accuracy in the prophecies given. Now the question is whether or not it was really written before hand or after the fact. That is the question the bible scholars and skeptics discuss all the time, because no one in their right mind says these prophecies are vague or "stretching it". The skeptics argument TODAY is that the prophecies are SO accurate they MUST have been written down after the fact (without evidence).
ok, so why not write "year" instead of "day"? How do you know that it was the "papal" system? Did Daniel say something about a system of guys running the church from the Italian peninsula, in the heart of an empire that once will have ruled over the Mediterranean? I mean, that would be specific? What did Daniel WRITE that convinced YOU he was talking about the papal system?
I have a feeling that we have different standards and won't agree. It may be better to just agree to disagree.
@vdizhoor Why do people insist on being spoon fed all the time. This just shows that you need to investigate this deeper for yourselves. day for a year principle? # of reasons. God's people where in captivity like Danial when the prophecies were given so it was for God's people to understand and all others to mock or disregard or not understand. But when they came to pass, it builds confidence in God.
Prophecies written for God's people - I totally get that. That's what I am talking about too. If they were specific enough, and accurate - they wouldn't be mocked. But because they are vague enough, those who want them to be real, will find the facts to it the pattern. Nostradamus, Edgar Casey - these guys also have similar prophecies, where you can't predict what WILL happen, but you can find events after the fact to fit the pattern.
@vdizhoor When I speak of God's people I mean everyone. The ones who don't see this are the ones who continue to reject or choose not to investigate. I'm sorry but your statement is one of ignorance. If you would study the prophecies out for yourself you would see they are VERY specific. I know because I did that for myself and that is one of the major reasons why I became a Christian in my adult life of my own free choice.
Surely, if this was a major reason for such an important step, you could share some of the examples of how it prophecies are specific in your own terms, and not simply point to websites.
You could say, that I am doing my research right now in talking to you.
Curious, when you were doing your own research, did you consider websites that argue that those prophecies are not specific?
@vdizhoor I would but it's a bit much to cover in these tiny limited space youtube boxes. Go to my page and I've put up over 30 specific but basic videos on most of these topics from my own perspective. You say you do research, then you should have looked on my youtube page a little more carefully as I address a number of common comments/questions about Christianity from my perspective. Those websites I gave you are sites that I agree with AFTER having done my own research.
@vdizhoor and yes I have considered other websites and many denominations versions of prophecies. Frankly they don't make a lot of sense and tend to force interpretations instead of letting the bible interpret itself and looking to see if history confirms what is plainly revealed.
@vdizhoor VERY briefly for ex when dealing with the identify of the antichrist: God gives us 9 characteristics of Antichrist in Daniel 7 so we can be certain of his identity.
1. The "little horn" or kingdom "came up among them"--the 10 horns which were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.
2. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).
3. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).
@vdizhoor 8. It would "speak great words against" or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks "great things and blasphemies."
9. It would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.
All 9 points are given together and are a part of the previous prophecy which outlines the major nations that play a part in endtime prophecies and so we have to see if history confirms any of this. The entity/nation/etc must fit ALL 9 points.
@vdizhoor History confirms it is the papal system. Hence papal priests in church history acknowledging this, hence the protestant reformation, hence the papal system retaliating and trying to give numerous other interpretations of the prophecies to take the heat of them, hence the formation of the Jesuit Society. Read the history books. It's all there. Mind you this prophecy was in the OT confirmed by the dead sea scrolls and so the papal system did not "invent this" & wouldn't make sense.
@vdizhoor Hope that answers a point of your question. This was a brief answer but I've pointed you in a very specific direction to investigate for yourself because clearly you haven't despite insinuating otherwise. Those 9 points tied to the date/timeline prophecies in the Bible are a FAR cry from being vague and open to interpretation. If you still insist that it is just hogwash, that's your choice, but a rather foolish and misinformed one from my stance.
Well, I reread the dream that Daniel 7 describes. I guess I just don't see how you get Western Europe out of it. Its language is so abstract, that, I guess, you could see lots of meaning there, but there is nothing there that points a person who is not already of a notion that it is about Western Europe which would convince him. It isn't that I choose to not believe. I just don't see it. But if you choose to believe it, then I see how you see it to be true.
@vdizhoor You don't see it because you need to study the couple of prophecies just before it. They all tie together to give you the whole picture. I simply gave you an example of how exact it is even if it is written in symbolic language, but the bible reveals what those symbols mean, for example beasts/animals in prophecy refer to nations/kingdoms. The prophecy of Daniel 2 sets the tone for the rest of the prophecies that follow and history confirms them. You need to study it all together.
We disagree about the process. What I am trying to tell you, is that because the prophecies are written in a non-obvious, non-specific way, you can go through a myriad of historical facts and find a pattern that fits. It is not a testament to the specificity of the prophecy but to your willingness to see it fit the facts - the facts can always be found.
That is EXACTLY why people believe in Nostradamus, 9-11 conspiracies, Cydonian Face of Mars, etc.
@vdizhoor Sorry friend. You've got it all backwards. Yes some do believe as you say, but many don't. I investigated as much as I could because I didn't want to believe that these things were true and I just couldn't escape the common sense, accurate and specific prophecies. Jesus Christ Himself is tied to more than 100 descriptors and a very specific 490 year prophecy that predicted His first coming to a tee. I know Nostradamus, 9-11 conspiracies, alien sitings, etc. NO COMPARISON.
Look, you don't need to validate your faith to me by proving that prophecies are real. Not because I don't agree (and I don't), but most importantly, because that is not what made you a believer. God fills a deep need, gives you hope and peace - that is why you believe. I can relate to this, although I wouldn't use the words you use. I understand your desire to share your faith, but ultimately that is not how you became a believer, which was for personal reasons, you may not even get.
@vdizhoor Pretty arrogant assuming you know what makes everyone a believer. I have a lot of respect for the God of the Bible cuz He consistently says seek and find, let's reason together, get wisdom & knowledge at all costs. He even says His own people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. It is in understanding the Bible correctly that leads most conversions in people of faith to put their trust in God and allow Him to give a person peace & hope. "You need Jesus" is not what convinced me.
OK, maybe it is presumptuous of me. Sorry. I meant no offense. So are you saying that you were a sceptic, and then decided to study the prophecies on the websites like bilibeprophecytruth because you didn't believe in them, but you became convinced, and that's why you now believe in God? I am curious, what your views were before you became religious. Also, what do you think about doing your own research about 911 truth? If you don't mind. I'd only like to know how you think.
@vdizhoor Apology accepted. I was agnostic (practically atheist). Up until my early 30's. A friend shared here faith with me and I was intrigued to find out why and how she was so sure the Bible was true and that Jesus is God/coming back/ One thing led to another and I attended a live bible prophecy seminar for 26 weeks where I got to learn all this stuff. I would take it home and just confirm on my own through library/online and other denomational/religious views. Intense but worth it.
@vdizhoor Eventually I came to a point where I had SO much info that I couldn't really deny the facts that I was faced with. This was a 3-4 year journey of HEAVY study. It included the scientific arguments of evolution/intelligent design & creationism, health, psychology, etc. etc. I have little interest in the 911 truth at this point mainly because there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. But I've heard and seen quite a bit about it. What do you think about what happened in Japan again today?
OK, dude, I have seen a variety of objections to Evolution from the perspective of ID, and I must confess, that these objections are simply misunderstanding of the theory. If you are convinced by them - OK. But I understand it, so lets not go there. We might as well debate moon landings. What happened in Japan? Another Earthquake? What do I think about it? Its a seismically active zone. It sucks that people get hurt. What do you think about it?
@vdizhoor What misunderstandings of the theory? All one has to do is go to Berkeley's website that has an evolution course online & confirm whether what the ID'rs are saying about evolution is true or not. Not that difficult. It's the ultimate conclusion that most people (evolutionists, ID'rs, and Creationists) have an issue with seeing that origins of all living things cannot be tested in a laboratory. Half the time I find it's people who believe in evolution that don't fully understand it.
Half the time they don't fully understand it? Well, I am from the other half, so save your energy :)
What do you mean "tested in a laboratory". Has anyone tested that Earth rotates around the Sun in a laboratory? Or that the sun moves around the center of the Galaxy? No one has seen that either? Do you have a problem with Astronomy too?
You seem to not understand the process of peer review. "Labs" and websites have nothing to do with it.
@vdizhoor " I am from the other half" - If you say so.
Has anyone tested that Earth rotates around the Sun in a laboratory. - Actually yes. We can test this repeatedly in nature. (doesn't have to be physically in a lab)
Or that the sun moves around the center of the Galaxy. - a hypotheses based on what little we do know.
I love astronomy. You make too many assumptions about me.
@vdizhoor It's a little more than just being in seismically active zone. Pull up a historical chart of earthquake activities over the last 100 years or so. They are significantly on the rise all around the world. Breaks my heart and we need to do what we can to help those in need. From a biblical perspective one of numerous signs that have to happen simultaneously indicating the return of Jesus. Christ equates His 2nd coming with a woman with birth pains ready to give birth.
The reason why there are more Earthquakes recorded, is because there is better record keeping and instant communication. Or are you saying that Jesus is sending Tsunamis at Japan to tell Christian nations that he is about to return? Isn't that a bit cruel?
Also, can I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been really down or in pain and desperately needed an answer, a way out, and felt something positive during your darkest hour, saw the light?
@vdizhoor I didn't say anything about God sending earthquakes, in fact if you read the bible, you'll find its actually a combination of things. Judgment day is reserved for the 2nd coming, so yes natural disasters would be cruel but often God gets the blame "Wrath of God" when it isn't Him at all. Answer to your personal question. No not really. I mean life happens but I always say seeking understanding and wisdom gets better results as to not repeat mistakes and avoid disasters. You?
Good. I sort of did. Its just that there is this epiphany that some people experience when shit hits fan that helps them to cope with it. I think that is what the Bible refers to when describing the coming of Jesus. Disasters, Earthquakes, birthpaines - these are allegories for the stress that people experience before they cry out in need of help (or "repent"). This happens to drunks, junkies, social outcasts, soldiers on battlefield.
@vdizhoor From the text alone can you prove that Christ meant for us to take the natural disasters He spoke of in connection to other signs of His second coming as allegorical? I mean when He speaks to others in parables the text is quite clear that it is such. Or when a vision or dream is given that is very clear as well. Just saying we have to let the text/authors interpret itself to us and not us force our own interpretations on the Bible. That is the reason why we have so many denominations.
@vdizhoor The difference is, the Bible explains through it's stories and other elements what the symbols used in prophecy actually mean. Ex: a lamb represents Jesus Christ in the OT. John the Baptist said behold the lamb that takes away the sin of the world referring to Jesus. So when we see "lambs" in the bible it is generally a symbol of Christ or Christlikeness. Beasts in prophecy represent kingdoms/nations as Daniel 2 tells us. They are the keys to PROPERLY understanding the prophecies.
@vdizhoor People get into trouble when they INSIST that this must mean that or this but give very little evidence from the Bible for it's own interpretation. Instead it is what they feel it means or they use outside sources to try and fit it as you have already pointed out from vague predictions like Nostradamus or horoscopes. Regardless if we believe what the Bible says it is only fair to allow the authors to tell us its plain meaning and not force our own, especially from feeling.
@vdizhoor Read some history books and find out what the protestant reformation was all about. Church history reveals that there were even many papal priests who recognized the prophecies as speaking about the papal system as a whole. There are at least 10 very specific indicators describing the papal system that not other religions/politic system could possibly fit... from it's geographic area, to its attempt to change the commandments of God, etc. It's a shame you'd rather part than investigate
@vdizhoor Just so you know, I grew up agnostic/atheist most of my life and it wasn't until someone shared some of the things you and I are talking about that it peaked my interest a bit to hear what they had to say that I then investigated it for myself and from many angles/persuasions of Christianity, religion & philosophy. Hope you have a similar journey. take care.
How could Moses write the 5th book, if he dies in that book? Shouldn't you put like an asterisk next to that fact, saying that it isn't quite true?. Also, what do you mean by "contradict"?
@vdizhoor It's general acknowledged that Moses wrote the Pentateuch with the exception of the last chapter of Deuteronomy which was most likely written by Joshua about Moses death. What do you mean what do I mean about "contradict"? Do you need a definition?
@sleanos Yeah, I know, but "General knowledge" is not the same as "fact". And if it is likely that a part of it was written by Joshua (which isn't really known, btw), while the general knowledge indicates that it was Moses, than general knowledge is clearly not a fact. Also, if we can't be certain who wrote the last chapter, how can we know with certainty who wrote the rest of them? You could say I am nitpicking btw. :)
I also doubt that people's faith hinges on these points.
@vdizhoor I understand your point. But there is sufficient evidence to suggest & believe that what is presented is fairly accurate. How can one be sure of ANY writings of antiquity? The Bible has the most written & historical evidence of almost any ancient writings hands down. Socrates, Plato, Caesar, Shakespeare... what you present suggests we should HIGHLY doubt the writings of the aforementioned individuals as well considering their rather lacking number of manuscript support.
I don't think that people value the Bible because it is historically accurate.
Similarly, people don't value Hamlet, or King Lear, because they know for sure that Shakespeare wrote it. The story is what is important. There may have never been a Homer or Socrates, but the content of their writings is what matters.
I am curious, do you like the story of Wizard of Oz? And if so, why? or Why not?
@vdizhoor Your opinion is noted of course. Some do value the bible because of it's historical accuracy. Do I like the story of the Wizard of Oz? It's ok. But's it's just a fictional story. The same is true of the story "The Pilgrims Progress". A fictional story written to illustrate truths/morals/etc. To compare either story to the Bible I feel is unfair because the Bible while having many things we cannot prove as yet, is strongly based in history & prophecy.
And yet, the Bible is not about History & Prophecy. Its about Life & Salvation.
We read fictional stories to kids not to deceive them, but to tell them the truth.
And that truth is best expressed by adults as fiction, as parable, as metaphor.
I think, that If God wanted to share facts with us, we would learn nothing.
Those who dismiss OZ, because it doesn't exist, and those who value it because they think it does are missing the point. The truth is between the lines.
No :), not entirely. But consider this, when Jesus teaches, he uses parables.
What is Oz about? Those who know they are cowards seeking to be brave become brave (those who are fearless are not brave), those who know they know nothing and seek wisdom, find it.
The Bible has the same message: those who seek goodness for others, find it for themselves, and those who seek goodness for themselves, will not find it. The fist way is narrow, the second one is tempting and broad.
@vdizhoor I hear ya. But parables, prophecies, dreams, visions and wise sayings/poems are clearly revealed/indicated in the bible. Everything else is considered historical regardless if one can believe it all including the miraculous. Prophecy though gives the believer confidence that everything in the bible is truthful.
Perhaps that is how it works for some, and maybe for you. But I think that others find meaning in just the words themselves, while the prophecies are often either self-fulfilling if taken literally (the Gospels mention Jesus doing things IN ORDER to fulfill prophecies) or too general/abstract to be recognized specifically.
I mean no disrespect but I think its a bit like saying that Wizard of Oz is worth reading because there are indeed tornadoes in Kansas, so the story has merit.
@vdizhoor Understood, but I think you need to seriously study the prophecies. The bible predicts the exact coming of Jesus, the exact reign of the papal system in history. Very specific timeline/date prophecies. How could Jesus do things in order such choose when His birth should be, or where He should be born. Or at His death, the manner of His death and betrayal. You see the predicament? They were fulfilled but clearly Jesus couldn't have caused many of them.
And I understand your perspective. I just don't share it. I think that a lot of details were added to the story by those who were writing the Gospels, who were familiar with the Old Testament's prophecies. The moral teachings of Jesus are what is important in the Gospels, healing the blind, I think is a metaphor for making people see the truth.
Also, suffering of revolutionary revered teachers of humanity is Observed: MLK, Gandhi, for instance. Predictions are Extrapolations.
Quaint but inaccurate and it would take dozens of comments (Which you wouldn't post anyway) to address all the various inaccuracies. One simple point is until the 15th Cent. each individual Book of the Bible (And the Bible itself) was a hand copied version of a previous Bible which allowed of a lot of honest errors, as well as some creative editorial additions & omissions.So it was impossible for any 2 Bibles to say "Exactly" the same thing. Or at least until Gutenberg's printing press.
coyoteself 18 hours ago
@coyoteself Thanks for respectfully presenting your statement. And to be brief, I completely agree with what you've said. But from my viewpoint given the history of the Protestant Bible (I can't say the same for the Catholic bible or Gnostic Gospels, or Jehovah's Witness translation etc.) I can stand by the statements made in these videos.
sleanos 17 hours ago
The old testament is the Hebrew bible and has nothing to do with christianity. Stop pretending that the jewish bible is connected to jesus. Jews do not accept jesus nor do they believe in him, he is a figment of white man's imagination.
brute017 2 months ago
@brute017 Clearly 10's of thousands of Jews at the time of Christ (as recorded in the New Testament & History) believed the Old Testament pointed to Jesus Christ.
sleanos 2 months ago
@brute017 old testament has everything to do with jesus. jesus has been mentioned in the old testament various times as "the Word"
the Word of God became flesh.
God said "Let there be light" thats literally Jesus creating light for jesus is the Word of God
dragnfr39 2 months ago
@brute017 Jesus was a Jew. He was prophesied about in the Old Testament. Isaiah 52:13 - Isaiah 53. :) Jesus was the promise that God made to the children of Israel, he is our freedom & our salvation that God promised to the Jews & also to the Gentiles.
XoWaterzXo 2 months ago
@brute017 Jesus not only confirms the accounts of the old testament, but confirms it to be divinely inspired. I understand that the atrocities committed in the old testament (by god) may conflict with your beliefs, but that doesn't mean you get to sweep it under the rug.
zeperx 2 months ago
@brute017 Christ was spoken of In the old Torah., Moses said Christ would come.
JDrosa1982 3 weeks ago in playlist BIBLICAL FACTS
Hmm. The Protestant bible has 7 fewer books than the Catholic version? What are you hiding?
Snarlarita 3 months ago
@Snarlarita Nothing. Read history about how and why the Papacy added those books in response to the protestant reformation (basically to try to uphold their own doctrines) and you'll understand why Protestants to this day reject those books.
sleanos 3 months ago
They don't contradict? LOL Oh yes they do. In hundreds of places. And how can Moses write the books of Moses if it mentions his own death. Was he a corpse when he wrote it?
Firearcher4 6 months ago
@Firearcher4 You're entitled to your opinion of course. What I've personally found is that they only contradict when a person INSISTS that it is meant to be understood a certain way. Scholars in general believe Moses did write the books of Moses...with exception to the chapters of his death, whom they believe Joshua wrote and added to his books. Common historical knowledge.
sleanos 6 months ago
@sleanos The Bible contradicts on many things, its can't even agree with itself about the life of Jesus....
Watch the vids of Bart Erhman /watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo
MegaJay79 5 months ago
@MegaJay79 Hi. I've seen Bart Erhman's vids and read his books. He got a LOT of things wrong and is just espousing his particulart opinion on the matter. The Bible is perfectly harmonic when you don't INSIST on slamming your own interpretation into to it.
sleanos 5 months ago
@sleanos What do you make of the differences in the events of the resurrection? The gospels don't agree...
MegaJay79 5 months ago
@MegaJay79 It's not that the gospels don't agree. Far from it. What we have are 4 testimonies of the events. It's no different than being in court today. If 4 people witnessed a crime and reported the EXACT same story... no difference in the minor details they may have picked up on... you would suspect something funny. It's is the minor differences to the overall event of the resurrection from different perspectives that gives the gospels some credibility. Ask any lawyer.
sleanos 5 months ago
@sleanos But they aren't minor differences. Different people found the tomb, in one account there was an angel in another there wasn't, in one account many people rose from the grave, in the others they don't for eg. that would be an issue in court. They also wouldn't be acceptable in law because the gospels were written 30 - 70 yrs after events, they aren't witness accounts
MegaJay79 5 months ago
@MegaJay79 I'll say it again, Just because one author describes an event slightly different than another is not reason in itself to dismiss what they say. They are writing from their own perspectives but ultimately filling in the details of the larger event at hand. And the gospels with the exception of Luke are eye witness accounts no matter how much time had passed and Luke investigated the events & witnesses himself to chronicle it.
sleanos 5 months ago
@sleanos I'd agree with you, but they don't slightly differ they are huge events that contradict the gospels such as mass resurrections (should be in the 1st account), angels or no, different people finding the tomb (they should at least agree on this) the fact that that Pauls first account was so different in context to the others... this and the fact no historians of the time mention any of this is very worrying and does require honest reflection.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
MegaJay79 5 months ago
@MegaJay79 I'd agree. We agree to disagree, mainly because a youtube forum isn't very conducive to having an indepth discussion citing resources and statements, etc to investigate every point of controversary. Especially since it's already been done. The canonical Gospels are in harmony. The Apocryphal gospels, the Non-canonical gospels, the Jewish gospels and the Gnostic gospels are not and highly questionable and rightly so.
sleanos 5 months ago
you are correct! but,the gnostics were among the first 'christians' and they believed that their teachings were the correct lessons of the christ. its a terrible sin against humanity that the catholic church murdered these people in the name of christ! may the prefects rise again and share their wisdom and love,and may the gospel of mary be studied without reprocussion! ....'for he kissed her on the mouth often'...!
777azathoth 6 months ago
@777azathoth Historically speaking yes they were among the many first Christians, but even before the Catholic church came on the scene we have much evidence as to the writings that were actually used by the early Christians in their homes and gatherings. Gnosticism writings are questionable from a protestant perspective. Even the apocrypha is suspect considering the Catholic church only added it to the bible in response to the protestant reformation.
sleanos 6 months ago
what about the nad hammadi 'gospels'? aren't they valid?
777azathoth 6 months ago
@777azathoth Historically speaking they may be valid if you consider yourself a Gnostic. Those writings can not be found to have been used in the vast majority of christian congregations over the last 2000 years & actually contain statements that completely contradict both the Talmud & the NT Christian writings. The protestant bible (and it's sources) is the only book in Christendom that has the most historical, linguistic, anthropological & teleological support based on the evidence thus far.
sleanos 6 months ago
Well #2 is BS. John wrote the last one. You do know that this is not the same author of the Gospel of John?
jroyals26 6 months ago
@jroyals26 I think you were referring to point #3 on who wrote the last book of the bible. And yes we said it was John. Also we do not state these facts based on fringe or higher criticism/liberal scholarship (if that is why you object and are basing your statement on) but on the bulk of respected historical scholarship throughout church history and practically all agree it was John of the Gospel of John who write the book of Revelation in his old age.
sleanos 6 months ago
20 reasons I have a headache.
EatMAndSml 6 months ago
@EatMAndSml *sarcasm I know* but more the reason to study the bible ;)
sleanos 6 months ago
@sleanos I really hope that wasn't you telling me to study a book of fairy tales, filled with unicorns, talking donkeys, parents that sell their children into slavery, great floods that NEVER HAPPENED and lets not forget stoning your child to death if he/she is bad. Oh the list goes on and on of the stupidity you have to defend when defending that bile. Why don't you study it and find out what's REALLY in it. Your reply pissed me off.
EatMAndSml 6 months ago
@EatMAndSml It wasn't intended to anger you, but how unfortunate that you have such an ill opinion about the bible. I wish you well.
sleanos 6 months ago
whats the source behind all these "facts"?
MatHrtxC 6 months ago
@MatHrtxC The countless volumes of research material written by respected scholars and historians from the fields of history, archaeology, linguistics, anthropology and theology over the last 2000 years.
sleanos 6 months ago
@sleanos
what scholars, shcolars of what, which historians? Where are their notes, or their manuscripts? they must have left some trace of their investigation. and where is the source to THEIR investigation?
MatHrtxC 6 months ago
@MatHrtxC You're kidding right? When was the last time you went to a library or spoke to professors at universities to share with you the replete volumes of information available on this subject?
sleanos 6 months ago
@sleanos That's far from answering my questions. I have talked to professors at highly catholic universities, all their arguements always end up being "because god did it".
Catholics feel superior to christians because "they actually do scientific research and philosophical studies", but all of it is still based on the same pre-protestant dogmas. so, this time i asked youtube and you answered. Again, that was far from answering my questions.
MatHrtxC 6 months ago
@MatHrtxC I understand what you're saying. I think you need to talk to non-Catholic Christians for some serious answers. I left the Catholic "Christian denomination" precisely because there answers are unreasonable and their practices I found are often in conflict with what the Bible plainly teaches. Lot more information available than just Catholic resources. Try reading Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith. get for $4 on amazon. Use as starting point.
sleanos 6 months ago
@sleanos Look to the sources used in that book as a spring board to point you to more resources for your own study.
sleanos 6 months ago
I am going to create man and woman with original sin and commence operation "incest". Then im going to impregnate a woman with myself. so i can be born again. Once alive, i will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself, to save you from the sin i originally condemned you to. Makes perfect sense Christians...... -_-
DoubleNNPM 7 months ago 11
@DoubleNNPM How about this instead... I am going to create man and woman perfect in every sense of the word but with the free will to choose whether to obey me or obey Lucifer. Because you were genetically perfect in the beginning and of a more noble stature than most of humanity today, there was no negative impact with incest back then as it affects us now.
sleanos 7 months ago
@DoubleNNPM In order to save humanity, I (God the Father) will send my Son( God the Son) (as agreed by both voluntarily) into the world in human flesh to be one of you forever (yet still divine by origin & birthright) to show you how to live by My principles of love & justice & to give you My Spirit so that you may live with me forever after I come to judge the world in righteousness where every man woman &child will give an account for every thought, word & action done in their own lifetime.
sleanos 7 months ago
@DoubleNNPM If you've seen Captain America or any hollywood movie, you'll know the best way to reach the hearts and minds of people without force, is to become one of them, experience what they have experienced, triumph in the end and give of oneself for others. Exactly what the Lord does for us.
sleanos 7 months ago
@DoubleNNPM Makes perfect sense to us Christians...... :)
sleanos 7 months ago
@sleanos yeh to chritians only, your whole statement was clearly bias mate
guns1312 6 months ago
@guns1312 Whatever you say. I wasn't always a Christian. In fact I've only become a Christian in my late adult hood because I put my bias aside for a moment and let the evidence speak for itself. (Arcaheology, history, bible prophecy & promises, the changed lives of those who believe, etc.)
sleanos 6 months ago
@DoubleNNPM God created us to sin? Or did Adam and Eve choose to sin?
laffy 6 months ago
@DoubleNNPM : And to one of my children when they were 3, they didn't understand why I would not eat cookies, share, make them go to bed, or change the oil in my car when I could be watching TV. What makes you think, in our teeny comprehension, we could completely grasp every aspect of the ALL KNOWING, EVER PRESENT GOD who created the universe? And by the way, who created the universe if not GOD, living outside of our time, space and cosmic understanding?
ScottMacFie 5 months ago
@DoubleNNPM Adam and Eve were not created with original sin. They were created without sin and as a result of there disobedience and lack of repentance to God for their actions the human race was cursed and by default we are all born with sin.
jbritton00 5 months ago
@jbritton00 Right, and wanting knowledge should be a sin worth punishing every human for. Makes perfect sense. NOT.
anymaru 3 months ago
@anymaru D'oh. Look guys. You can believe or not believe. That is your choice. But come on. Don't be ignorant about it. Then you become what you ridicule. Even worse because you claim to be using pure reason!
The meaning of "eating of the fruit of the tree on knowledge of good and evil" being the "original sin" is due to the idea that without knowledge of good and evil it is impossible to sin. Further it isn't eating that is the sin, it is thinking knowledge makes you "as gods" or equal to God
redddbaron 3 months ago
@redddbaron Keep in mind that both the literal act of eating is sin because God said don't do it, but the issue is a heart/mind problem because they did not believe the words of God. Jesus taught the same very explicitly in the new testament when He used the example of lust and adultery for example. Moral issue = lust, causes us to commit the literal act + adultery. Control the mind, thoughts, heart, you control your actions.. which is why we need God in our lives to begin with.
sleanos 3 months ago
@sleanos "the literal act of eating is sin"
I disagree. "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is symbolic of Mankind's development of a moral code. Without a moral code or concept of good and evil, there is no "sin".
The rest of your post is very relevant and true, but the literal eating of a symbolic fruit is a fallacy of logic and nothing more than an attempt to twist a symbol into a false literal doctrine.
redddbaron 3 months ago
@redddbaron I would agree with that. But that is key to understanding, sin is disobedience to anything God commands, regardless if we understand it or not or in the case of Adam & Eve, had become of away of it initially. The moral standards humanity has come to "know", "accept" or even supposedly "evolve" all have their origins "somewhere" and by definition as the Bible points out have always existed because true lasting standards of morality are the very nature of God's character.
sleanos 3 months ago
@sleanos Fair enough.
I would like to point out 1 thing though. That idea "anything God commands, regardless if we understand it or not" is the slippery slope that has caused untold pain and suffering for generations.
One must be VERY careful about making sure what "God commands" is actually from God and not Men with ulterior motives. How much evil has been done in the world due to false claims that "God commanded it", when actually it was a Pope, King or false prophet, etc that commanded it?
redddbaron 3 months ago
@redddbaron Agreed!
sleanos 3 months ago
@DoubleNNPM
HI,
WHICH DEMON IS TALKING TO YOU......??
theknowlidgeful 4 months ago
Great video!! Thanks so much.
julieification 7 months ago
If moses really excisted than where is his grave? Or that of king david, jesus or any important person in the bible? It seems to me that if someone like moses lived than after his death his people must have erected a shrine for him that lasts till today.
funkeyfact 7 months ago
@funkeyfact Read the bible and/or the ancient documents of those people. It plainly reveals while for instance that Moses was buried on a mountain top but they have no idea where he is buried precisely so people would not make a shrine to Moses and eventually worship him. Look up an encyclopedia some time, we know the location of Jesus and King David's tomb.
sleanos 7 months ago
@sleanos On a mountaintop? Could that be mount Kilimanjaro? And can you tell me where I can find the graves or tombes of king david, jesus barabbas and jesus the christ? You say I have to check out an encyclopedia, can you tell me which one? You know that seeing is believing... :)
funkeyfact 7 months ago
@funkeyfact If you can figure out how to use youtube I'm sure you know how to look up information in any online encyclopedia. Could it be mount Kilimanjaro? Probably not. Why? Read the Bible, look at archaeology and the historical records on the manner. Step into any library and ask for Christian apologetic works and historical resources on linguistics and archaeology. I'm pointing you in the right direction, because 1) I don't have the time to spoon feed you & 2) I had to dig for the info also
sleanos 7 months ago
@funkeyfact Moses's grave is in Mount Nebo in Jordan. David's Tomb,is on Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel. Jesus's burial was at Golgotha in Jerusalem..(Its empty)
shellback1970 7 months ago
@66tryker, Jesus was born a jew and the jews were his chosen people but then he died on the cross to save everyone from ther sins. If you woul actually read the bible you would see that you don't have a clue what your talking about
JesusismyGod1000 8 months ago
So what, what about all the horrible things in the old testament? rape, molestation, infanticide(killing of babies) suppression of women, slavery,murder. Christians think you have to be a Christian to get to haven right? Jesus was a freaken Jew! Besides, all the facts that were stated, doesn't mean it isn't FICTION!
66tryker 9 months ago
@66tryker God did not command/condone anyone to rape, molest, murder or suppress anyone. As for the judgments.... are you God? Can you decree a perfect judgment according to every person's heart? Can you forsee the future of each of those lives? God did command the death of numerous nations.... but they where all prophesied hundreds of years in advance and the text indicates that those nations where given time to turn away from their evil practices (history clarifies their practices).
sleanos 9 months ago
@sleanos You can't really be that nuts. Of course God commanded it. Do you think people can't read for themselves?
Ardalla555 8 months ago
@Ardalla555 Excuse me? Where did God command anyone to rape another person? Please provide the scripture. Where did God command anyone to molest another person? Please provide the scripture. Where did God command anyone to murder another person? Please provide scripture and note their is a difference between the Creator (who knows the future and your heart) commanding execution/judging people which was predicted centuries before and commiting a blatan murder regardless if you disagree or not.
sleanos 8 months ago
@sleanos Ah, so you are not allowing other opinions. That says a lot right there. Why don't you just create a dozen accounts and declare yourself to be a genius? NIce game, you can be the winner every time when you control the game.
Ardalla555 8 months ago
@Ardalla555 Ah another ignorant comment. That's ok, ignorance can be fixed if one wants it. I block comments for approval so I can answer them in a timely fashion (this IS my personal youtube page after all) and so I can keep those with rather vulgar and explicit comments off since they have no respect for reasonably rational conversation. Or did I need your permission to have more control over my page?
sleanos 8 months ago
@66tryker Slavery was not commanded (it wasn't required) by God, but He did give rules to govern the people at that time. And if you read the text carefully, it was actually servitutude and not slavery. It was a common practice back then that if one could not repay his debts they could enter servitude to work them off. Slavery as is more commonly understood within the last few hundred years was NOT the same as is described in the Bible under God's commands.
sleanos 9 months ago
@66tryker Agreed. Jesus was a Jew, salvation is of the Jews. It's not "being" a Christian that saves us, but rather who we put our trust in that saves us. Jesus Christ. And I suppose you'll have to investigate the 3 main bible prophecy timelines, lookup historical records to substantiate it and then determine HOW the Bible could have so accurately predicted the future? This is one of the main reasons people put their trust in the Bible as fact. I'm reasoning with you..fair yes?
sleanos 9 months ago 7
@sleanos the bible doesnt predict the future STFU god is not real, there is a thing called science, people give the bible too much credit haha
nebula46 5 months ago
@nebula46 And people wonder why some comments have to be censored with ignorant talk like yours. Yes there IS a thing called science and when rightly understood does not conflict with what the bible teaches (although the bible is NOT a science text book). FYI: Most of the greatest minds of science throughout history were Christians or religious in some sense with a belief in God or the bible or something outside ourselves.
sleanos 5 months ago
@sleanos "It's not "being" a Christian that saves us, but rather who we put our trust in that saves us."
Do we need to be saved? Are we in danger?
Meurglys33 2 months ago
@Meurglys33 No arguments there. Trusting in the Savior, believing His word, and allowing His Words & Spirit to penetrate our minds and hearts as we yield our will to His transforms us into Christians or "Christ like".
sleanos 2 months ago
A couple things
1. Explain to me how Moses wrote about his own death
2. There is no evidence Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John ever wrote a book in the bible
judowrestler1 10 months ago
@judowrestler1 1) It is generally accepted that Moses authored the 1st 5 books of the bible with exception to the very last chapter in Deuteronomy who most scholars attribute to Joshua who wrote about the death of Moses. Remember, the books were compiled together into "books" by scholars and theologians/teachers over years. They ORIGINALLY were all on scrolls, etc.
sleanos 10 months ago
@judowrestler1 2) On the contrary, like any writing of antiquity we generally acknowledge the authorship as it appears in the writings unless otherwise indicated to which there is little to doubt of the original authors with exception to the Gnostic Gospels and other writings. The canon is well authenticated.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos the concept of intellectual property(writings) was for different in the aincient world. The fact that something has paul's name on it does not mean it was written by him. It could mean it was written in the style of paul, paul would agree with what was said etc.Even in the different writings with paul's name on it there are different views about the eschatology. In some places it says don't bother trying to figure out the day while in others it gives signs the second coming is near.
judowrestler1 10 months ago
@judowrestler1 I wouldn't disagree with what you've said entirely. Yes it's true the "authors" of the books had others dictate. No different than authors today. But all the evidence in scripture gives clues and many times flat out tells us who wrote what. SO we give the benefit of the doubt to the bible writers as we would ANY OTHER author unless we have conclusion evidence to suggest otherwise. That is only fair.
sleanos 10 months ago
@judowrestler1 And the last part you said is very accurate. Noone can know the exact day/hour of His second coming, but the Bible gives ALOT of indicators so we can know the times/season we are living in in regards to the second coming. We're living in the final "hours" of mankind whether that means another year... or another 50 years... noone knows exactly but it's close.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos Jesus repeatedly stated that he would come while some of you standing
here are still alive and other times he said he would come within one generation.
Either Jesus was wrong or Jesus has already come 2000 years ago.
Jesus return has been believed to be close for 2000 years.
humansaretheworld 10 months ago
@humansaretheworld There is a lot of dualism in bible prophecy/spiritual truths and while some apply to His day, it can also refer to the future. There are many prophecies given in the bible that could not have been fulfilled until now, one of the longest ones was the prediction of the papl power reigning for over 1260 years. Then a number of signs follow to indicate where we are in bible history. Scripture says 1000 years is as a day with the Lord and vice versa.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos tis fits with time line of may21st 2011 being the day of the return of Jesus to get his....brother camping of family radio seems to have a good proof of tie line to follow form the signs given by the bible..so are you ready?
Victoryisoursindeed 10 months ago
@Victoryisoursindeed I take it day by day to be ready to meet Jesus... but I don't believe the hoop-la about may 21st 2011 being "the day" of Jesus' return. Sorry. He could come before that or after.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos yep that is right, but he can come at any time. I ti interesting that others have a time line thought, that appears to be in the bible.
Victoryisoursindeed 10 months ago
@sleanos Also as far as the gospels go there is a vast amount of evidence that these circulated in the world for a long time without any particular name being attatched to them. These were later added in an effort to make them seem more authentic.
judowrestler1 10 months ago
@judowrestler1 When was the last time you read the gospels. The book of Luke for example tells us it is Luke writing (even if dictated) The same can be said of the Pauline letters and practically every other book.
sleanos 10 months ago
Is it just me or is the word 'facts' being used a bit loosely here?
ShadeToSun 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun It's just you and your own particular opinion or interpretation of evidence.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos Or maybe me and my research and verification of historical reality. This video is assuming a lot about authorship. It needs some serious fact checking before it should be calling these 'assumptions' facts.
ShadeToSun 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun hmmm.. you are one individual amongst hundreds if not thousands of biblical scholars & historians who would argue against you. Suffice it to say I'll stick with the scholars & historians instead of individuals such as yourself who claim contradiction or error. There is safety in tried and true research instead of fringe scholarship. But just for kicks, pick one fact and tell us why you believe it is in error.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos That Moses wrote the first five books, that has not been proven and by examination of the texts it is likely they had more than one author.
ShadeToSun 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun You say much, what evidence do you bring. Pick up most bible translations and the bible translation houses are on one accord for the most part agreeing that it was Moses who wrote the 1st 5 books with exception to the last chapter in Deut describing the death of Moses (who the scholars believe to be Joshua). None the less, the evidence of the text itself and the extra biblical evidence points to Moses as the author. What credible evidence can you present against this?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos Also, you are making many assumptions about me. You are coming off as very arrogant and adversarial. No need for posturing. Simple, intelligent discourse will suffice.
ShadeToSun 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun I simply stated a fact. You are ONE individual probably citing skeptic and fringe scholarship studies against the entire religious & biblical foundations and respected historians of centuries past in terms of basic biblical knowledge. Much of the BASIC criticisms and arguments against the Bible's history and authorship have been laid to rest decades ago by historians and archaeologists against the same rehashed arguments of skeptics & unbeliever of which I used to be one.
sleanos 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun No offense but you can spare me the "Christians" are ignorant, or not knowledgeable etc.etc.etc. I was an agnostic/atheist for most of my life and it wasn't until my adulthood that I seriously started looking into the question of Christianity against many other religions and philosophies. I've spent numerous years studying this question out are a sincere open minded and objective student just wanting to know "what is truth" when it comes to this topic.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos - That's pretty interesting. The opposite normally happens when someone is looking for the truth in the Bible. You start looking at a lot of the bible and realize that it doesn't answer questions of logic and reason. And that the times have changed with new information. Is not the bible edited heavily by the Catholic church during its time spent in Europe?
ksniveegirl 10 months ago
@ksniveegirl Yes if you're talking about the Catholic Bible which has been edited and is full of errors. This isn't the case with the Protestant bible which is confirmed accurate by the Jewish Torah, Dead Sea Scrolls, and 50000+ ancient documents.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos - I have curiously noted differences between the catholic and protestant bible; the main differences: The books of Judith, Tobie, Mcchabbé, Baruch some of Daniel and Esther doesn't exist in protestant bible. MATTHEW- verses 6-13 and 27-35 don't exist in catholic bible. MARK - verse 11-26 doesn't exist in catholic bible. LUKE - verse 1-28 doesn't exist in protestant bible. Verses 8-45; 9-56; 17-36, 24-42 are absent from catholic bible.
ksniveegirl 10 months ago
@ksniveegirl You should know your history as well that all these extra biblical books where primarily added during the time of the protestant reformation to uphold certain catholic teachings in response to that start of that movement. Those extra writings were rarely if ever actually used in the "Christian" churches for the centuries before the 15th/16th century.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos - ACTS - verses 8-37, 9-5, 9-6, 15-34, 24-6...etc are absent from catholic bible. APOSTLE- John 5-7 doesn't exist in protestant bible. The Torah contains: Genesus, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua. Christians take the Jewish Tanach and add their own Greek writing to it (ie 'New Testament') and call it their bible. How is this correct? And the Dead Sea Scroll (founded 1947) 5,000 other ancient documents have which accurate information?
ksniveegirl 10 months ago
@ksniveegirl Dead Sea scrolls uphold the Jewish Torah and Protestant Bible as being most accurate in translation not the Catholic Bible and the extra writings. Study bible prophecy in the Torah and the life of Christ and it becomes clear to most sincere seekers of truth that the Messiah foretold was indeed Christ. You have to remember, the original apostles including Jesus were Jewish (save Luke). The world gave the name Christian to Christ followers. It's still a Jewish religion.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos - This is true... Its a wonder that the Jewish religion has seperated into many.
ksniveegirl 10 months ago
@ShadeToSun And if I am coming off as arrogant or adversarial. Sorry. You caught me on a bad day. Do you think you're the ONLY one to try to tell Christians there faith is in error especially on a public forum like youtube?
sleanos 10 months ago
Dude, since it is obvious we won't agree on this stuff, lets just call it off.
I don't know about your time, but I think I have wasted enough of mine :)
I am sure you are sincere in your convictions, but we just have a different perspective. So lets save our breath.
Take care.
Peace.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor You may leave anytime you wish. This is my page afterall and I have indulged you for quite a while.
sleanos 10 months ago
sorry, you did post that comment ( i thought it didn't get through). Feel free to remove this one as well as the second repetition (the one that mentions Ecclesiastes).
And by the way, please feel free to let me know what specific accurate predictions you are referring to. I missed that part.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor if it'll help you can visit bibleprophecytruth(DOT)com and/or bibleuniverse(DOT)com as a study aid with your own research.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
OK, I saw your chart. The first word that comes to mind - pareidollia. The dates aren't given by Daniel, this someone's idea to stretch it until it fits events that are interesting. People find similarities between Lincoln's and Kennedy's assassinations this way. I thought that maybe Daniel actually says how many YEARS till WHAT SPECIFIC event.
If this convinces you - great. I am not buying into it.
Websites for "own research" - I see 911 truthers do this. Don't go there.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor You've got to be kidding right? If I were to tell you that prophetically 1 day = 1 year and give you a 10 day "prophecy" and tell you it would not begin until a certain/specific building in a specific location was rebuilt, you're telling me that this is stretching? If I were to tell you the papal system will reign for 1260 years and under very specific circumstances and oh yeah, here are 10 very specific indicators as to the religious system I am referring to.. that is stretching it?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos Granted you may not choose to believe it, but there is no denying the accuracy in the prophecies given. Now the question is whether or not it was really written before hand or after the fact. That is the question the bible scholars and skeptics discuss all the time, because no one in their right mind says these prophecies are vague or "stretching it". The skeptics argument TODAY is that the prophecies are SO accurate they MUST have been written down after the fact (without evidence).
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
ok, so why not write "year" instead of "day"? How do you know that it was the "papal" system? Did Daniel say something about a system of guys running the church from the Italian peninsula, in the heart of an empire that once will have ruled over the Mediterranean? I mean, that would be specific? What did Daniel WRITE that convinced YOU he was talking about the papal system?
I have a feeling that we have different standards and won't agree. It may be better to just agree to disagree.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Why do people insist on being spoon fed all the time. This just shows that you need to investigate this deeper for yourselves. day for a year principle? # of reasons. God's people where in captivity like Danial when the prophecies were given so it was for God's people to understand and all others to mock or disregard or not understand. But when they came to pass, it builds confidence in God.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Prophecies written for God's people - I totally get that. That's what I am talking about too. If they were specific enough, and accurate - they wouldn't be mocked. But because they are vague enough, those who want them to be real, will find the facts to it the pattern. Nostradamus, Edgar Casey - these guys also have similar prophecies, where you can't predict what WILL happen, but you can find events after the fact to fit the pattern.
Did you become Christian because of Daniel?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor When I speak of God's people I mean everyone. The ones who don't see this are the ones who continue to reject or choose not to investigate. I'm sorry but your statement is one of ignorance. If you would study the prophecies out for yourself you would see they are VERY specific. I know because I did that for myself and that is one of the major reasons why I became a Christian in my adult life of my own free choice.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Surely, if this was a major reason for such an important step, you could share some of the examples of how it prophecies are specific in your own terms, and not simply point to websites.
You could say, that I am doing my research right now in talking to you.
Curious, when you were doing your own research, did you consider websites that argue that those prophecies are not specific?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor I would but it's a bit much to cover in these tiny limited space youtube boxes. Go to my page and I've put up over 30 specific but basic videos on most of these topics from my own perspective. You say you do research, then you should have looked on my youtube page a little more carefully as I address a number of common comments/questions about Christianity from my perspective. Those websites I gave you are sites that I agree with AFTER having done my own research.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor and yes I have considered other websites and many denominations versions of prophecies. Frankly they don't make a lot of sense and tend to force interpretations instead of letting the bible interpret itself and looking to see if history confirms what is plainly revealed.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor VERY briefly for ex when dealing with the identify of the antichrist: God gives us 9 characteristics of Antichrist in Daniel 7 so we can be certain of his identity.
1. The "little horn" or kingdom "came up among them"--the 10 horns which were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.
2. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).
3. It would pluck up or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor 4. It would be "diverse" or different from the other 10 kingdoms (Daniel 7:24).
5. It would make war with and "wear out" or persecute the saints (Daniel 7:21, 25).
6. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire--the fourth world kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8).
7. God's people (the saints) would "be given into his hand" for "a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25).
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor 8. It would "speak great words against" or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks "great things and blasphemies."
9. It would "think to change times and laws." Daniel 7:25.
All 9 points are given together and are a part of the previous prophecy which outlines the major nations that play a part in endtime prophecies and so we have to see if history confirms any of this. The entity/nation/etc must fit ALL 9 points.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor History confirms it is the papal system. Hence papal priests in church history acknowledging this, hence the protestant reformation, hence the papal system retaliating and trying to give numerous other interpretations of the prophecies to take the heat of them, hence the formation of the Jesuit Society. Read the history books. It's all there. Mind you this prophecy was in the OT confirmed by the dead sea scrolls and so the papal system did not "invent this" & wouldn't make sense.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Hope that answers a point of your question. This was a brief answer but I've pointed you in a very specific direction to investigate for yourself because clearly you haven't despite insinuating otherwise. Those 9 points tied to the date/timeline prophecies in the Bible are a FAR cry from being vague and open to interpretation. If you still insist that it is just hogwash, that's your choice, but a rather foolish and misinformed one from my stance.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Well, I reread the dream that Daniel 7 describes. I guess I just don't see how you get Western Europe out of it. Its language is so abstract, that, I guess, you could see lots of meaning there, but there is nothing there that points a person who is not already of a notion that it is about Western Europe which would convince him. It isn't that I choose to not believe. I just don't see it. But if you choose to believe it, then I see how you see it to be true.
Thanks for sharing.
Peace
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor You don't see it because you need to study the couple of prophecies just before it. They all tie together to give you the whole picture. I simply gave you an example of how exact it is even if it is written in symbolic language, but the bible reveals what those symbols mean, for example beasts/animals in prophecy refer to nations/kingdoms. The prophecy of Daniel 2 sets the tone for the rest of the prophecies that follow and history confirms them. You need to study it all together.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
We disagree about the process. What I am trying to tell you, is that because the prophecies are written in a non-obvious, non-specific way, you can go through a myriad of historical facts and find a pattern that fits. It is not a testament to the specificity of the prophecy but to your willingness to see it fit the facts - the facts can always be found.
That is EXACTLY why people believe in Nostradamus, 9-11 conspiracies, Cydonian Face of Mars, etc.
You believed in the Bible FIRST.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Sorry friend. You've got it all backwards. Yes some do believe as you say, but many don't. I investigated as much as I could because I didn't want to believe that these things were true and I just couldn't escape the common sense, accurate and specific prophecies. Jesus Christ Himself is tied to more than 100 descriptors and a very specific 490 year prophecy that predicted His first coming to a tee. I know Nostradamus, 9-11 conspiracies, alien sitings, etc. NO COMPARISON.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor
Look, you don't need to validate your faith to me by proving that prophecies are real. Not because I don't agree (and I don't), but most importantly, because that is not what made you a believer. God fills a deep need, gives you hope and peace - that is why you believe. I can relate to this, although I wouldn't use the words you use. I understand your desire to share your faith, but ultimately that is not how you became a believer, which was for personal reasons, you may not even get.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Pretty arrogant assuming you know what makes everyone a believer. I have a lot of respect for the God of the Bible cuz He consistently says seek and find, let's reason together, get wisdom & knowledge at all costs. He even says His own people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. It is in understanding the Bible correctly that leads most conversions in people of faith to put their trust in God and allow Him to give a person peace & hope. "You need Jesus" is not what convinced me.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
OK, maybe it is presumptuous of me. Sorry. I meant no offense. So are you saying that you were a sceptic, and then decided to study the prophecies on the websites like bilibeprophecytruth because you didn't believe in them, but you became convinced, and that's why you now believe in God? I am curious, what your views were before you became religious. Also, what do you think about doing your own research about 911 truth? If you don't mind. I'd only like to know how you think.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Apology accepted. I was agnostic (practically atheist). Up until my early 30's. A friend shared here faith with me and I was intrigued to find out why and how she was so sure the Bible was true and that Jesus is God/coming back/ One thing led to another and I attended a live bible prophecy seminar for 26 weeks where I got to learn all this stuff. I would take it home and just confirm on my own through library/online and other denomational/religious views. Intense but worth it.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Eventually I came to a point where I had SO much info that I couldn't really deny the facts that I was faced with. This was a 3-4 year journey of HEAVY study. It included the scientific arguments of evolution/intelligent design & creationism, health, psychology, etc. etc. I have little interest in the 911 truth at this point mainly because there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. But I've heard and seen quite a bit about it. What do you think about what happened in Japan again today?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
OK, dude, I have seen a variety of objections to Evolution from the perspective of ID, and I must confess, that these objections are simply misunderstanding of the theory. If you are convinced by them - OK. But I understand it, so lets not go there. We might as well debate moon landings. What happened in Japan? Another Earthquake? What do I think about it? Its a seismically active zone. It sucks that people get hurt. What do you think about it?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor What misunderstandings of the theory? All one has to do is go to Berkeley's website that has an evolution course online & confirm whether what the ID'rs are saying about evolution is true or not. Not that difficult. It's the ultimate conclusion that most people (evolutionists, ID'rs, and Creationists) have an issue with seeing that origins of all living things cannot be tested in a laboratory. Half the time I find it's people who believe in evolution that don't fully understand it.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Re: Evolution.
Half the time they don't fully understand it? Well, I am from the other half, so save your energy :)
What do you mean "tested in a laboratory". Has anyone tested that Earth rotates around the Sun in a laboratory? Or that the sun moves around the center of the Galaxy? No one has seen that either? Do you have a problem with Astronomy too?
You seem to not understand the process of peer review. "Labs" and websites have nothing to do with it.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor " I am from the other half" - If you say so.
Has anyone tested that Earth rotates around the Sun in a laboratory. - Actually yes. We can test this repeatedly in nature. (doesn't have to be physically in a lab)
Or that the sun moves around the center of the Galaxy. - a hypotheses based on what little we do know.
I love astronomy. You make too many assumptions about me.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor It's a little more than just being in seismically active zone. Pull up a historical chart of earthquake activities over the last 100 years or so. They are significantly on the rise all around the world. Breaks my heart and we need to do what we can to help those in need. From a biblical perspective one of numerous signs that have to happen simultaneously indicating the return of Jesus. Christ equates His 2nd coming with a woman with birth pains ready to give birth.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
The reason why there are more Earthquakes recorded, is because there is better record keeping and instant communication. Or are you saying that Jesus is sending Tsunamis at Japan to tell Christian nations that he is about to return? Isn't that a bit cruel?
Also, can I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been really down or in pain and desperately needed an answer, a way out, and felt something positive during your darkest hour, saw the light?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor I didn't say anything about God sending earthquakes, in fact if you read the bible, you'll find its actually a combination of things. Judgment day is reserved for the 2nd coming, so yes natural disasters would be cruel but often God gets the blame "Wrath of God" when it isn't Him at all. Answer to your personal question. No not really. I mean life happens but I always say seeking understanding and wisdom gets better results as to not repeat mistakes and avoid disasters. You?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Good. I sort of did. Its just that there is this epiphany that some people experience when shit hits fan that helps them to cope with it. I think that is what the Bible refers to when describing the coming of Jesus. Disasters, Earthquakes, birthpaines - these are allegories for the stress that people experience before they cry out in need of help (or "repent"). This happens to drunks, junkies, social outcasts, soldiers on battlefield.
Bad natural disasters happen sometimes. So what?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor From the text alone can you prove that Christ meant for us to take the natural disasters He spoke of in connection to other signs of His second coming as allegorical? I mean when He speaks to others in parables the text is quite clear that it is such. Or when a vision or dream is given that is very clear as well. Just saying we have to let the text/authors interpret itself to us and not us force our own interpretations on the Bible. That is the reason why we have so many denominations.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
so what is the difference between "our own interpretations" and let the "text/authors interpret itself to us"?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor The difference is, the Bible explains through it's stories and other elements what the symbols used in prophecy actually mean. Ex: a lamb represents Jesus Christ in the OT. John the Baptist said behold the lamb that takes away the sin of the world referring to Jesus. So when we see "lambs" in the bible it is generally a symbol of Christ or Christlikeness. Beasts in prophecy represent kingdoms/nations as Daniel 2 tells us. They are the keys to PROPERLY understanding the prophecies.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor People get into trouble when they INSIST that this must mean that or this but give very little evidence from the Bible for it's own interpretation. Instead it is what they feel it means or they use outside sources to try and fit it as you have already pointed out from vague predictions like Nostradamus or horoscopes. Regardless if we believe what the Bible says it is only fair to allow the authors to tell us its plain meaning and not force our own, especially from feeling.
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Read some history books and find out what the protestant reformation was all about. Church history reveals that there were even many papal priests who recognized the prophecies as speaking about the papal system as a whole. There are at least 10 very specific indicators describing the papal system that not other religions/politic system could possibly fit... from it's geographic area, to its attempt to change the commandments of God, etc. It's a shame you'd rather part than investigate
sleanos 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Just so you know, I grew up agnostic/atheist most of my life and it wasn't until someone shared some of the things you and I are talking about that it peaked my interest a bit to hear what they had to say that I then investigated it for myself and from many angles/persuasions of Christianity, religion & philosophy. Hope you have a similar journey. take care.
sleanos 10 months ago
How could Moses write the 5th book, if he dies in that book? Shouldn't you put like an asterisk next to that fact, saying that it isn't quite true?. Also, what do you mean by "contradict"?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor It's general acknowledged that Moses wrote the Pentateuch with the exception of the last chapter of Deuteronomy which was most likely written by Joshua about Moses death. What do you mean what do I mean about "contradict"? Do you need a definition?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos Yeah, I know, but "General knowledge" is not the same as "fact". And if it is likely that a part of it was written by Joshua (which isn't really known, btw), while the general knowledge indicates that it was Moses, than general knowledge is clearly not a fact. Also, if we can't be certain who wrote the last chapter, how can we know with certainty who wrote the rest of them? You could say I am nitpicking btw. :)
I also doubt that people's faith hinges on these points.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor I understand your point. But there is sufficient evidence to suggest & believe that what is presented is fairly accurate. How can one be sure of ANY writings of antiquity? The Bible has the most written & historical evidence of almost any ancient writings hands down. Socrates, Plato, Caesar, Shakespeare... what you present suggests we should HIGHLY doubt the writings of the aforementioned individuals as well considering their rather lacking number of manuscript support.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleano
I don't think that people value the Bible because it is historically accurate.
Similarly, people don't value Hamlet, or King Lear, because they know for sure that Shakespeare wrote it. The story is what is important. There may have never been a Homer or Socrates, but the content of their writings is what matters.
I am curious, do you like the story of Wizard of Oz? And if so, why? or Why not?
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Your opinion is noted of course. Some do value the bible because of it's historical accuracy. Do I like the story of the Wizard of Oz? It's ok. But's it's just a fictional story. The same is true of the story "The Pilgrims Progress". A fictional story written to illustrate truths/morals/etc. To compare either story to the Bible I feel is unfair because the Bible while having many things we cannot prove as yet, is strongly based in history & prophecy.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
And yet, the Bible is not about History & Prophecy. Its about Life & Salvation.
We read fictional stories to kids not to deceive them, but to tell them the truth.
And that truth is best expressed by adults as fiction, as parable, as metaphor.
I think, that If God wanted to share facts with us, we would learn nothing.
Those who dismiss OZ, because it doesn't exist, and those who value it because they think it does are missing the point. The truth is between the lines.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
What exactly are you trying to say? I hope you aren't saying that the Bible is like the story of OZ entirely?
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
No :), not entirely. But consider this, when Jesus teaches, he uses parables.
What is Oz about? Those who know they are cowards seeking to be brave become brave (those who are fearless are not brave), those who know they know nothing and seek wisdom, find it.
The Bible has the same message: those who seek goodness for others, find it for themselves, and those who seek goodness for themselves, will not find it. The fist way is narrow, the second one is tempting and broad.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor I hear ya. But parables, prophecies, dreams, visions and wise sayings/poems are clearly revealed/indicated in the bible. Everything else is considered historical regardless if one can believe it all including the miraculous. Prophecy though gives the believer confidence that everything in the bible is truthful.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
Perhaps that is how it works for some, and maybe for you. But I think that others find meaning in just the words themselves, while the prophecies are often either self-fulfilling if taken literally (the Gospels mention Jesus doing things IN ORDER to fulfill prophecies) or too general/abstract to be recognized specifically.
I mean no disrespect but I think its a bit like saying that Wizard of Oz is worth reading because there are indeed tornadoes in Kansas, so the story has merit.
vdizhoor 10 months ago
@vdizhoor Understood, but I think you need to seriously study the prophecies. The bible predicts the exact coming of Jesus, the exact reign of the papal system in history. Very specific timeline/date prophecies. How could Jesus do things in order such choose when His birth should be, or where He should be born. Or at His death, the manner of His death and betrayal. You see the predicament? They were fulfilled but clearly Jesus couldn't have caused many of them.
sleanos 10 months ago
@sleanos
And I understand your perspective. I just don't share it. I think that a lot of details were added to the story by those who were writing the Gospels, who were familiar with the Old Testament's prophecies. The moral teachings of Jesus are what is important in the Gospels, healing the blind, I think is a metaphor for making people see the truth.
Also, suffering of revolutionary revered teachers of humanity is Observed: MLK, Gandhi, for instance. Predictions are Extrapolations.
vdizhoor 10 months ago