Hans, I know the Advent & Christmas season are pretty busy times for the Lutheran pastor. But if I don't get a new Lutheran Satire video soon, I'm going to die. I'd love something for us Charismatics, just sayin'.
You are forgetting that people have to make a cognitive confession of their faith in order to be saved (Romans 10:9), and since babies are incapable of this; their is no such thing as infant faith.
@TheLutheranSatire Show me in the scripture where children where baptized by the apostles? Show me the scripture where baptism was ever used with children.
@TruthJesusAloneSaves why would you even WANT your salvation to be based on the "strength" of your mental faith, which can fluctuate wildly? i'm saved because of Christ's promises to me, not because i FEEL saved.
@Taiwan1997 I would suppose that the issue of dancing would hinge on what kind of dancing were occurring. Certainly acts of lewdness are improper for a Christian, but this does not imply a blanket injunction against dancing of all kinds, does it?
Thank you for explaining the Lutheran religion. Let's say, my Buddhist father who got saved last night decided that he will continue to drink. The problem is he often drinks in excess and seems that he will continue to do so. Is this okay as long as I get him baptized and get him to take communion?
@Taiwan1997 All of us continue to struggle with sin while we are in the flesh. This is precisely the reason why we need Christ. If we were honest, we would admit that all of us have sins that we do not see to be sinful or which we would rather not let go of. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit will not be able to convict us of that sin and lead us to repentance? Certainly not. This is the sanctifying work of the Spirit.
...If, hypothetically, a person, knowing something to be sinful, predetermines to continue in that sin unrepentant, believing that sin to be acceptable before God and not something for which forgiveness/repentance is necessary, then I suppose that would indicate a rejection of one's faith or rejection of one's baptism. The sin in that case would be retained rather than forgiven, until the person becomes repentant. At least, this is my understanding.
Thank you so much for all you great answers. You are such a sweetheart and I appreciate you taking time to explain your religion to me. Have a great day and God bless. I hope you will be my friend and join my youtube channel as I will join yours. Phil 1:3 for you today.
"even give faith to a person who merely hears that Word."
I got some good news for you. My neighbors have just received faith because they heard the word of God. I cried "Repent and believe." Everybody outside my apartment heard. There is a baby on the 3rd floor as well so maybe it heard too but I am not sure. Maybe I will tell the baby to repent and believe tomorrow morning.
Okay, let's try that. As I told you before Acts 16:31 states that if I believe than my Buddhist family is saved. Remember let God's word say what it says.
@Taiwan1997 That verse is actually an excellent verse to support infant baptism and the role that baptism plays in how a person is saved. Paul replied to the jailer's question by stating that the message of salvation was for not only the jailer but for his entire household. Paul then proceeded to address the entire household and baptize all of them. It is also referring to the idea that fathers have a duty to continue to teach the entire household thereafter.
...And all of this is apparent from the plain meaning of the text. It does not contradict other scripture (which would be impossible). So, yes, let God's Word mean what it says.
@Taiwan1997 We are given Christian freedom. While I think it would be better not to smoke or to engage in behaviors that would mistreat one's body, no where in scripture is smoking, drinking, or even dancing completely forbidden. But, as Paul says, while things may be permissible, not all things are beneficial. We must guard against pietism while at the same time seeking to live a life in accordance with God's commands. We must not however invent laws where the Gospel has given freedom.
On the cross, God treated Christ as if He committed all the sins of every sinner who would ever believe, so that He could treat believers as if they had lived Christ's perfect life. John MacArthur
@bumnus I also know people who, after an emotive sermon, said the sinners prayer, ( though not scriptural and they absolutely do not appear to be saved by their actions. I know a Baptist preacher who said that even if a Christian began to worship Satan, they're still saved.Now I would never judge the soul of another by outward appearance regardless of the time of their baptism. Both sides of this issue can site examples of people who do not take their faith seriously.
Here is some possible material for you next video. You could burn Jim at the stake for not saving the babies. I am looking forward to the sequel regardless. Good job Lutheran Satire. Funny.
William Sawtre, who was identified as a Lollard and Baptist. He was the first person burned at the stake after Henry IV's 1400 A.D. decree to burn heretics. His "crime" was he refused INFANT BAPTISM . Five hundred others who were identified as Anabaptists were also killed in England during this period.
While we should preach that all men are commanded to repent and be baptized. (Acts 2:38), adding any other requirement to salvation by grace becomes "works" in disguise. Even though numerous Scriptures speak of the importance of water baptism, adding anything to the work of the cross demeans the sacrifice of the Savior.
It implies that His finished work wasn't enough. But the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace and grace alone (Eph 2:8-9). Baptism is simply a step of obedience to the Lord following our repentance and confession of sin. Our obedience- water baptism, prayer, good works, fellowship, witnessing, etc. - issues from our faith in Christ. Salvation is not based on what we do, but on Who we have. "He who has the Son has life" (1John 5:12)
@Taiwan1997 Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump baptism together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define baptism as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, baptism is not a human work, even though it does use an earthly element - water, applied by the Pastor. Pax.
Then prayer is not a work because Jesus taught us how to pray. Then witnessing is not a work because we are commanded the great commission. Am I right?
@Taiwan1997 Well, prayer does not save us; Matthew 28:19 is addressed primarily to pastors. It hinges on Christ's authority over sin, his giving this authority also to pastors (those who hold the office of the ministry), commanding them to make disciples and spelling out how disciples are made - by baptism and teaching. Notice also that he said, "all nations" - not "baptizing adults who have willfully repented and realized their need for such."
Baptism saves us but prayer doesn't. Baptism saves us but fulfilling the great commission doesn't. It seems you have picked Baptism to be an extra special over other works. I am not seeing why in your explanation. You say baptism is of God yet people are physically baptizing. Why can't I say prayer is of God for it moves me to Grace. Why can't I say fulfilling the great commission is of God for it moves me to Grace following your logic with Baptism.
@Taiwan1997 I didn't single baptism out; God did in scripture. He didn't say "Prayer now saves you" or "Witnessing now saves you." Baptism is His work, not mine. No where in scripture does God promise salvation based on the merit or my prayer or my witnessing. Prayer and speaking the gospel are indeed beneficial works and are motivated by faith in God, but are not meritorious for salvation.
@Taiwan1997 1 Peter 3:21 (Baptism now saves you); Matthew 26:26-28 - Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and wafter blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Notice: bread = body; wine = blood; = forgiveness of sins (salvation)
Jesus was in his body. How could he say the bread is my body too? I am all over the place. Like the Catholics, you have built a doctrine on a verse...that is dangerous. Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of Me. This is Catholic mysticism.
@Taiwan1997 Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. One of God's attributes is omnipresence. I choose not to limit God to one time and one place. If He says, "This IS my body... This IS my blood...shed for you for the forgiveness of sins," I will have to take Him at His word.
1 Peter 3:21 is not talking about the physical water removing the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Matthew 26:26-28 That isn't saying the wine in the cup is His blood. Your forgetting to read the whole passage. It was in remembrance of His actual shed blood that was going to be spilled. I really don't know why you get angry at the Catholics for adding to the cross. You are doing a similar thing and keeping a similar Catholic tradition.
@Taiwan1997 Based on what are you interpreting the verses this way. On your logic or on the actual text. Jesus said, "This IS my body... This IS my blood." "Baptism (water combined with God's word) SAVES." Why assume that He didn't mean what he said?
@Taiwan1997 Most people misunderstand what is actually meant by those words. It does not refer to simply recalling what Christ did. The response to this will not fit in one box, so bear with me...
"Most people misunderstand what is actually meant by those words. "
Just like you misunderstand 1 Peter 3:21. Squirrygirl you believe in the Catholic sacraments and the mysticism if you want. Put scripture to it if you want. But at least consider the possibility that your denomination may be in error, maybe Galatians error. Search the scripture, read different commentaries, weigh scripture that appears contradictory. Pray before you read the Bible, ok..sleepy time. thx.
@Taiwan1997 Have to be careful calling the spiritual mysticism. Many believe that half of Christianity is mystic. They say things like the Incarnation, Trinity, resurrection, virgin birth, animal sacrifice in the OT, are pagan things that Paul adopted.
Part 1: The meaning in this context is very different than we think of “remembering” things today. This term is used similarly when referring to the “remembrance” of the passover (remember: the Lord’s Supper first happened in the context of the Passover) Gamaliel wrote: “In every generation let each man look on himself as if he came forth out of Egypt.”...
Part 2: ... One thing is clear here — the “remembrance” spoken of in the Words of Institution is not simply nostalgia. It’s not fond memories of the distant past. It actually communicates (literally conveys or gives) a participation in the events being described therein.
Part 3: ... Further, it is not suggesting that the memorial is ours. It refers to Christ's memorial. That is, Jesus commands the disciples to do this. Do what? Eat and drink. Because whenever they [eat and] drink, it will be for Christ the thing that reminds Him of the forgiveness that was poured out on the Cross.
Part 4: ... Now is Jesus saying that He is forgetful? By no means! Actually this is a common way that God makes a promise. He did this with Noah. God set the rainbow in the sky to be a reminder to Him (see Genesis 9:15) of His promise to Noah and to all mankind throughout the generations that He would not pour out His wrath and destroy the earth. (Matthew Lorfield)
Re: "good conscience" - Rev. Eric Brown explains it this way: Now, as to the idea of the pledge (or “appeal” in the ESV) – in this we ought remember that Christ is the One who gathers His lost sheep, He is the one who cleanses us...
Only if we trust in the work of the cross...and in that alone. I do not add to the finished work at Calvary. That is my only hope.....not in baptism (although I am baptized) not in communion (although I receive).
...(cont'd) He is the one who is our intercessor to the Father, the One who appeals to God on our behalf. Indeed in the verse this pledge, this appeal doesn’t come *through* our conscience, but rather through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is for us, it is for a good conscience (that we might have a clean conscience on account of Christ). The argument that Baptism is primarily an act of man doesn’t really
Pastor Todd Wilken is writing an article series on Matthew 28:19 that you might find useful. It is called "The Not So Great Commission" and is available free online on the Issues, etc. Journal (Summer '11).
@Taiwan1997 We are to let our lights shine before men so that or Father in heaven is glorified. Mt 5:16. And even then it is God who works in us both to work and to will his good pleasure. Phil2:13. We can never work for our righteousness for no good thing dwells in us. But God helps us do what is right. Romans 7: 18-25
Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump prayer together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define prayer as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, prayer is not a human work, even though it does use words applied by the person praying......(using the same logic you use with Baptism)
@Taiwan1997 You cannot in good conscience create doctrine without a basis in clear scripture. If you claim that prayer saves, this must be based on scripture. Otherwise it is a false doctrine.
But that is what you are doing. You are picking and choosing your good works to add to the cross and misapplying a Bible verse to support it. Let me show you. I take a scripture and pretend I believe it. I became a Christian and because I did all my Buddhist family did as well Acts 16:31. Try prove me wrong. The only way you can do that is show me other scriptures that clarify this misrepresentation. I showed you this with both Baptism and explained communion.
Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump communion together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define communion as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, communion is not a human work, even though it does use an earthly element - bread, applied by the Pastor. Pax.
@Taiwan1997 Exactly - communion is God's work. It is a gift from God, wherein He has promised us forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28). This is grace and salvation. The fact that God happens to employ human hands in some form or fashion in this act does not then make it man's work; God is doing the forgiving and saving. The pastor acts under the authority of the office of the ministry, an authority given to them in Matt 28:19 (which doesn't primarily speak of the layperson going and witnessing).
@Taiwan1997 Christ's death and resurrection won (secured) grace. The means of grace deliver it. If I have purchased a gift for someone, don't I still have to deliver it to them somehow? Yes. Has the need for delivery somehow negated the fact that I have secured the gift for them? No. God, in His infinite wisdom, determined what means He wished to use for that delivery. To reject them and say, "I don't agree with that, therefore you are wrong, God." seems quite dangerous... (continued...)
@Taiwan1997 Do you use the term "Catholic" to mean "Roman Catholic"? This would be a misunderstanding. Catholic means universal, indicating the true faith common to all in the Body of Christ irrespective of time or space. True, Roman Catholicism has some glaring errors that have arisen, but believing that all doctrines or traditions that we have in common with Roman Catholicism are automatically suspect is equally specious.
Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump witnessing together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define witnessing as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, witnessing is not a human work, even though it does use an bodily element - speaking applied by the speaker.
@Taiwan1997 Witnessing is a work of man. We do not merit salvation by how well or how often we witness. I invite you to present relevant scripture to prove otherwise.
Witnessing is a work of man. We do not merit salvation by how well or how often we witness. I invite you to present relevant scripture to prove otherwise.
I don't believe in adding anything to the cross so there is no scripture that I am interested in quoting you although I could give some and explain it falsely. Are you having a good day? Thanks for writing me again.
@Taiwan1997 Do I deny that this is scripture? No. Do I deny that this is referring universally to the concept of "witnessing" rather than specifically to the sending of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles after the Ascension? Yes. "Us" is a specific 1st person plural pronoun referring back to the speaker/writer, not generally to all believers. This is not a reference to God performing a work for the purpose of delivering the forgiveness of sins (which is how we're discussing baptism and communion).
"Therefore any religious rite is void." A man made religious rite is void, as in baby dedication. Jesus explains the futility of man made rules in Matthew 15: 1-9 ; Mk 7:1-13. The latter even explaining how man made tradition makes the Word "of none effect". However, following a command of Christ is not void. Matthew 28: 19-20; Mt 4:4; 2 Thess 3:6.
Yes, we baptize repentant, regenerated believers....not infants who are not repentant. How can a parent be repentant for an infant? It makes no sense to me but a lot of sense to you. Agree to disagree.
@Taiwan1997 "and" is an inclusive conjunction, meaning both things are included. It does not set a precedence of order. In Jesus command to baptize he says baptize and then teach. No mention of repenting first. If I invited you for soup and salad would you think I did not follow through correctly because I put the salad out first? Of course not. Now if I never offered the soup you'd have a right to say I did not completely follow through on my offer.
@bumnus Prior to the Resurrection, salvation came through faith in the promise of the Messiah. This is why Paul can write of Abraham and other Old Testament people being saved. Since then, God speaks to us through his Son, whom we receive through the Means of Grace - Baptism, Communion, Confession/Absolution, Word (Scripture/Preaching). I am sure that one of my Lutheran brother/sisters will help to correct or clarify this if I am misunderstanding it.
Love it! I was talking to a synergistic gal the other day. She insisted that faith was a "choice" and not a gift from God. Her best example of this was that a child's belief in Santa Claus is a choice; therefore, we choose to accept Christ. I told her that wasn't a Biblical allusion...and she asked why not. Lord deliver us. :-)
@bumnus That isn't because your baptism was a failure. Are you to say that no one who has been baptized as an infant has ever known who Jesus was? People like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc. All three of whom continued in that confession. When Jesus commanded baptism, he also commanded to teach. So, baptism isn't where you are to end. Baptism is the beginning. (In regards to your 5 points, you nullified grace. Salvation is dependent upon your actions/doings. The HSpirit makes a Xian.)
Did not Augustine, Luther, Calvin believe and teach repentance? Infant baptism is a Catholic rite and unfortunately some of the Catholic practices came with Luther. Luther was not perfect in his break from the church.
@Taiwan1997 Yes, but repentance is impossible prior to faith. Baptism delivers grace, by faith. Is it the ONLY means of grace? No. Is it a normal (the usual way of things) means of grace commanded by the Word of God as the way that people are normally to be brought into the body of Christ, yes. Baptism is not strictly a Roman Catholic rite, nor did Luther intend to "break from the Church".
@RealityCheck23834 It says that Christianity is filled with human beings. Human beings mess up (as Christians say, we all sin). Therefore, any group of sinful human beings, will have division and conflict. The only place we will be free of this conflict is the resurrection.
According to scripture, there will be false Christs, false teachers, and false brethren. That is why we are given the parables of the sower, wheat/tares, sheep/goats, good/bad fish, wise/foolish virgins. We are to be discerning. we are to seek truth, we are to exercise righteous judgment. This has nothing to do with being Human beings and everything to do with God's truth. We must have this truth before the resurrection. Only by the blood of the crucified one.
@RealityCheck23834 It is not a reflection on Christianity, but rather a reflection on the fallen state of mankind. We cannot by our own reason or will understand the things of God. This reflects poorly on us, not on Christianity itself.
@bumnus "realizes" "asks", "desires"- All works of man.1 Cor 2:14, John 3:6, Romans 8:7. Ezekial 34:1,15
The thief never asked Jesus to save him, or to come into is heart. This is a descriptive passage not prescriptive. It does not set a precedence or pattern.
Isaiah 55:11-His Word accomplishes what it says. Ezekiel 36 :22-27; Titus 3:4-7; Acts 22:16,(Paul by the way had to be knocked to the ground, he made no decision) John 6:44. Always his work to and upon us, never our work toward him.
@bumnus I only mentioned the age of accountability (not in scripture) because of your "when does the baptism shield where off" comment. The Bible says believe and be baptized so I will follow the command of my Lord and do both. Age is not given. They can occur in any order. Following a command is not a work, it is being obedient to Christ's words. Paul had to die daily and so does every Christian. Many scriptures say that we can turn our back and walk away from the faith.
@bumnus I'm sorry but I'm not quite getting your comment. The Bible says God's Word will not return back to him void, it is efficacious. Our decisions are zip; in fact, dead (unregenerate) men can't make decisions, they need resuscitation from the Holy Spirit. Jesus said no one comes to him except the Father draws him. That word draw was used of boats being pulled ashore; not an easy chore once out of water. We come being dragged by the Father to his son, we don't decide to do it.
Thanks but I will continue to trust in the blood to cleanse my sin. What do you do with the thief on the cross? He never got baptized. What do you do with someone who repents on their death bed?
@Taiwan1997 As will I. I won't trust in the decision of a sinful man, rather in the sovereignty and grace of an Almighty God, and the scripture which says that baptism washes and regenerates by the power of God, not the decision of men.
Scripture says that blood washes and the Spirit regenerates us. Saved by the blood of the crucified one. Thanks for your discussion on this very important topic. We both must be diligent and seek the scriptures. There is a right answer here. God bless you brother. It is night time in Taiwan. I appreciate you and I love Lutheran Satire....so funny and such an original idea.
@bumnus "When does the baby baptism shield wear off?" Probably the same time the age of accountability sets in. Anyone can lose their salvation if they turn away from God, so even those folks who have been told to repeat the sinners prayer can walk away. In fact, many say that prayer through emotional goading and were never really moved to true repentance by the Holy Spirit.
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
@Taiwan1997 We are told to both believe and be baptized. Jesus said to baptize and teach when we make disciples. Peter said the promise is for your children. I do not have a problem with God wanting to extend his grace in a miraculous way even to children. If scripture says we are evil from our youth Gen 8:21. Strongs youth is 5271, 5288- and translates babe, child, childhood, then I'm thankful God made a way through baptism to cleanse us.
@Taiwan1997 We are told to both believe and be baptized. Jesus said to baptize and teach when we make disciples. Peter said the promise is for your children. I do not have a problem with God wanting to extend his grace in a miraculous way even to children. If scripture says we are evil from our youth Gen 8:21. Strong's youth is 5271, 5288- and translates babe, child, childhood, then I'm thankful God made a way through baptism to cleanse us.
This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary.
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe, not when we get baptized, otherwise we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died.
Why is there no recorded scripture of an infant getting baptized? (This started in the Catholic church as I understand church history). I could be wrong.
Why did John leaped within his mothers womb at the announcement of Mary's pregnancy. The psalms and Jesus say out of the mouths of babes God is praised. God knows us before our inward parts are formed. The bottom line for me is Jesus telling all nations to be baptized and then taught all he has commanded. Mt 28. Peter says the promise is for you and your children in Acts. Neither mention an age of accountability. What is this age? It is God's action to us, never ours to him.
@bumnus Since the Bible says that our hearts are deceitful above all else and desperately wicked, how does one know when to make the big decision? And was Jesus not serious when he said You MUST be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? What scriptures make exceptions for some based on age or mental capabilities? By one man sin entered and affects all according to scripture. It says all have sinned, not all will sin.
@Taiwan1997 John leaped in his mothers womb at the news of Mary's pregnancy. It is a Spirit to Spirit thing, the carnal mind can not comprehend or reason this out. David said he trusted in God while he was still at his mother's breast.
@Taiwan1997 I think the Lord can communicate with us at any age. In Psalm 22: 9-10 David says-" yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust (hope in the KJV) you at my mother's breast. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Respond to this video... If the sin of the first Adam is not imputed to us before an age of accountability, than the justification of the second Adam is not either. You can't have it both ways. the wages of sin is death and babies die. Genesis is not only referring to spiritual death due to the sin of the first Adam.
@Taiwan1997 I would check out Rev. Fisk's YouTube videos (revfiskj) on Baptism if you haven't yet. He has a two video primer on Baptism entitled "Got Baptism? Onepoint-OH!" and "Got Baptism Too? Point-Oooohhhh!!!" Another video, "Holy Shark Boxing" addresses some of the common questions such as the necessity of Baptism, the thief on the cross, etc.
Out of all the people who got baptized (I have mention the Ethiopian eunuch). The thief on the cross.......why wasn't there at least one mention of an infant/child getting baptized?
@Taiwan1997 I agree it is incorrect to make a doctrine out of any single verse. The whole theme of scripture is God redeeming sinful men because no one is good, no one seeks God. He seeks us out and we respond. In many protestant churches 2,3 and 4 year old children stand and sing of being Jesus little lambs, and that "he lives in my heart". When do you tell them, "well that's not actually true.; now that you've reached the age of accountability he left and you have to ask him in?
This heathen family just lost their baby boy (Joey) in a drowning. They are heartbroken. They decide to go to the Lutheran church. 9 months later they have another baby boy (Timmy). They baptize Timmy. Question where are Joey and Timmy spending eternity.
@Taiwan1997 We can never say who is or is not in eternity actually. Only God knows the heart. There are some pretty nice wolves in sheep's clothing out there that we might assume are saved because we look on the outward appearance.Read Numbers 16 concerning the rebellion of Korah,Dathan and Abiram. Even the children and little ones were swallowed up into Sheol because these men despised the Lord. Doesn't seem fair to me, but I don't question God.
@Taiwan1997 Only God knows the answer to that question. Prior to the 1500's Christian churches baptized babies. Only after The Enlightenment did we begin to approach the Word through reason instead of believing by faith exactly what it says. The Bible does say it is a narrow road and few their be that find it. Many liberal Christian groups have had trouble with that so now they say all people will be saved in the end. We must trust in the sovereignty of God for many unanswered questions.
@squirrygirl Hello. Catholic 19 yrs. Evangelical x33 wherein I made decision for Christ at least 6 times. In times of uncertainty or trial I was told maybe I wasn't sincere enough when I asked Jesus to be my Savior" It wasn't until I received sound biblical teaching from the Lutheran church,that I learned to go by the Word 100% and not by my emotions, or decisions. Only then did I really rest in what Christ did for me. What a blessing!
@Taiwan1997 At 19 some evangelicals told me that I wasn't a Christian "until" I asked Jesus into my heart, to be my personal Lord and Savior. Since Catholics didn't read the Bible at that time I believed them. I did by the way realize that Jesus died for my sins and I did believe that he was the only true God. They just told me it meant nothing unless I made a decision to ask him to be my Savior. To this day many think that getting someone to repeat the "sinner's prayer" saves souls.
But what did you believe? Did you believe in grace alone or not? I had the same experience and I was deceived for 33 years by the asking Jesus into your heart thing and the personal relationship. But I believed in grace alone all the way through the whole experience.
@Taiwan1997 When we think our decision is what saves us, as opposed to a work of God's grace to us, in times of trial we wonder if our decision was good enough. Now I realize that my salvation was a complete work of God's grace and him drawing me. I go by the Word not a decision I made.
@Taiwan1997 Without intending to sound trite, I was saved 2000 years ago when Christ was incarnated, crucified, died, was buried, and rose again from the dead - which secured God's grace for me and all sinners. This grace was delivered to me individually in my baptism, which is God's work and is commanded in God's word.
@Taiwan1997 I know that I am saved because this is God's promise. I trust that God is not a liar. This is the only place that assurance can be found - not in my own assessment of whether or not I think I have the Spirit (based on a feeling?), whether or not I am outwardly obeying the Law closely enough, whether I am sufficiently repentant, or any other assurance which begins with me.
"I know that I am saved because this is God's promise. I trust that God is not a liar. "
God is not a liar. We are the liars when we take verses that don't belong to us. I did this. When I was a false convert I would take the passage " He will never never never never never leave nor forsake you." and because of this verse that never applied to an unrepentant sinner...I continued to live in my debauchery believing that I had eternal security and that I was a chosen one.
@Taiwan1997 Lutherans do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security. As Paul said in Romans 6:1-2; "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid....We must renew our minds and prove what is good, acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2. I've known many an adult convert who lived a life of sin and felt eternally secure because they "said" the sinners prayer. I try to follow Phil 2:12-mind my own heart and know Christ is working in me for my good.
I agree with you on the sinners prayer and easy believism is false teaching. But so is I was saved as a Catholic infant. It is going from one false teaching to another. Thanks for informing me that the Lutherans do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security. I was ignorant of that fact. I put all the reformers in one basket. I thought Martin Luther would have believed that we are eternally secure because Salvation is of the Lord. I am praying for you my friend.
"whether or not I am outwardly obeying the Law closely enough, whether I am sufficiently repentant, or any other assurance which begins with me."
Then why do Lutherans believe you can lose your salvation? A mustard seed of faith and repentance is all you need if it comes from God.....and those seeds will grow...if it comes from God.
@Taiwan1997 Because we also do not believe that begin saved erases the continued effects and struggle with our Original Sin. Humans have a corrupt nature that is hostile to God and which cannot but sin continually. The Old Adam must daily be drowned as we remember our baptism. While a person cannot willfully choose God, he can and does willfully reject God and his forgiveness. When we reject or deny the need for God's forgiveness, we can lose the faith that apprehends that grace for us.
@Taiwan1997 I now understand that I was saved, made a member of God's family, at my baptism as an infant. This is a promise found in many passages. It is a gift of God. I continued in the faith as a Catholic believing always that Christ died for my sins. It was incorrect evangelical teaching that told me I had to make a decision to be saved. As I did not like to worldliness of the churches I was attending, I began to look around. We started attending a Lutheran church 3 yrs ago. Part 2 follows
Thanks so much for sharing. This really helps me understand the Lutheran church. I know a lot of Lutherans but I admit I am ignorant of their faith and practices. So let's see if I get this right. You were saved as a Catholic baby. You continued to pray to Mary, confession to a priest, while you were saved. You found Evangelical church to be worldly but not Catholic or Lutheran churches. Did I get this right? You have a great day and thanks for your testimony.
@Taiwan1997 Correct. I no longer pray to Mary. As far as confession, if we have a sin that is particularly difficult and we are feeling guilty, we can go to private confession. We believe that pastors have been put in a place by vocation to extend the forgiveness of Christ to us by expressing what the Word says. We do not believe any man has powers to forgive our sin, only Christ can do that. Pastors bring the gospel of forgiveness to us though,in the stead of Christ.
@Taiwan1997 Part 2. It was then that I learned the proper teaching about salvation; that it is a miraculous work of God. It is his action towards sinners, never ours toward him. Once you are saved, either as a child or adult, then the Lord continues to work in your life to sanctify you. (Phil 2:13) Each Sunday he blesses me and extends grace toward me through the Word and Holy communion. He draws me do good works to glorify his name, not to gain favor. (Mt 5;16) Part 3 follows
@Taiwan1997 In the OT babies were circumcised without their decision and made children of God. God is, and always has been, the author and perfecter of our faith. We do not choose to write our own book. He is always the initiator and we the blessed recipients of grace. John 6: 44; John 6:65; John 15:16; John 17: 2,9; Romans 3:11; 1 Cor 2:14Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; Psalm 65:4. Lastly I believe baptism and belief are equally important by command not as a work we can boast in. Mt 28:19 Mk 16:16.
Thank you again for sharing with me. I look forward to hearing your answers. I am so tired. I must go to bed. God bless you and thank you for all the time you have spent explaining this all to me. Not just this time, but before. That's love.
@Taiwan1997 The same way that an adult, who is dead in sin and incapable of choosing the things of God, can have faith. By the Holy Spirit creating faith in Him through the Word.
@Taiwan1997 This statement assumes a common misconception - namely, that faith originates with the believer. Rather, faith originates with the object of that faith. We receive saving faith from God; it does not begin with us. It also assumes that faith is inherently rational and self-aware. A baby's faith in his parents does not originate with the baby, and the baby's faith in the parents does not have be rational to be efficacious. (cont'd below)
Respond to this video... .... The efficacy of the faith does not depend on the baby understanding his relationship to the parent or even being aware of such.
can we as professing christians not call each other names?
chrisalpizar 1 month ago
Hans, I know the Advent & Christmas season are pretty busy times for the Lutheran pastor. But if I don't get a new Lutheran Satire video soon, I'm going to die. I'd love something for us Charismatics, just sayin'.
dunamis3626 2 months ago
You are forgetting that people have to make a cognitive confession of their faith in order to be saved (Romans 10:9), and since babies are incapable of this; their is no such thing as infant faith.
TruthJesusAloneSaves 3 months ago
@TruthJesusAloneSaves Have you never read, "' Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?" Matthew 21:16.
TheLutheranSatire 3 months ago 15
@TheLutheranSatire Show me in the scripture where children where baptized by the apostles? Show me the scripture where baptism was ever used with children.
BrotherMichael1000 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@TruthJesusAloneSaves why would you even WANT your salvation to be based on the "strength" of your mental faith, which can fluctuate wildly? i'm saved because of Christ's promises to me, not because i FEEL saved.
nicoXP3712 4 weeks ago 2
stupidity at its finest. Comparing Anabaptists to heartless cads.
awgamblin1987 3 months ago
@awgamblin1987 ...or someone who doesn't understand satire! ;-)
AnHonestChristian 2 months ago
Is having a dance in a dance hall okay?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I would suppose that the issue of dancing would hinge on what kind of dancing were occurring. Certainly acts of lewdness are improper for a Christian, but this does not imply a blanket injunction against dancing of all kinds, does it?
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Thank you for explaining the Lutheran religion. Let's say, my Buddhist father who got saved last night decided that he will continue to drink. The problem is he often drinks in excess and seems that he will continue to do so. Is this okay as long as I get him baptized and get him to take communion?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 All of us continue to struggle with sin while we are in the flesh. This is precisely the reason why we need Christ. If we were honest, we would admit that all of us have sins that we do not see to be sinful or which we would rather not let go of. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit will not be able to convict us of that sin and lead us to repentance? Certainly not. This is the sanctifying work of the Spirit.
squirrygirl 3 months ago 4
...If, hypothetically, a person, knowing something to be sinful, predetermines to continue in that sin unrepentant, believing that sin to be acceptable before God and not something for which forgiveness/repentance is necessary, then I suppose that would indicate a rejection of one's faith or rejection of one's baptism. The sin in that case would be retained rather than forgiven, until the person becomes repentant. At least, this is my understanding.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Thank you so much for all you great answers. You are such a sweetheart and I appreciate you taking time to explain your religion to me. Have a great day and God bless. I hope you will be my friend and join my youtube channel as I will join yours. Phil 1:3 for you today.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
One question, will the baby on the 3rd floor need to be baptized? I am worried it may die tonight.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
"even give faith to a person who merely hears that Word."
I got some good news for you. My neighbors have just received faith because they heard the word of God. I cried "Repent and believe." Everybody outside my apartment heard. There is a baby on the 3rd floor as well so maybe it heard too but I am not sure. Maybe I will tell the baby to repent and believe tomorrow morning.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
"Let God's Word say what it says."
Okay, let's try that. As I told you before Acts 16:31 states that if I believe than my Buddhist family is saved. Remember let God's word say what it says.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 That verse is actually an excellent verse to support infant baptism and the role that baptism plays in how a person is saved. Paul replied to the jailer's question by stating that the message of salvation was for not only the jailer but for his entire household. Paul then proceeded to address the entire household and baptize all of them. It is also referring to the idea that fathers have a duty to continue to teach the entire household thereafter.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
...And all of this is apparent from the plain meaning of the text. It does not contradict other scripture (which would be impossible). So, yes, let God's Word mean what it says.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Great news....loving being a Lutheran. In a few minutes my family and my neighbors got saved. How cool is that?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
I am new at this. Do you have a beer party to celebrate after a baptism?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 LOL - sometimes. It is an event to celebrate, much like the wedding at Cana. :)
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
And I would assume smoking is okay.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We are given Christian freedom. While I think it would be better not to smoke or to engage in behaviors that would mistreat one's body, no where in scripture is smoking, drinking, or even dancing completely forbidden. But, as Paul says, while things may be permissible, not all things are beneficial. We must guard against pietism while at the same time seeking to live a life in accordance with God's commands. We must not however invent laws where the Gospel has given freedom.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"That verse is actually an excellent verse to support infant baptism "
Well there you go. I am so happy that my family is now saved.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
On the cross, God treated Christ as if He committed all the sins of every sinner who would ever believe, so that He could treat believers as if they had lived Christ's perfect life. John MacArthur
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@bumnus I also know people who, after an emotive sermon, said the sinners prayer, ( though not scriptural and they absolutely do not appear to be saved by their actions. I know a Baptist preacher who said that even if a Christian began to worship Satan, they're still saved.Now I would never judge the soul of another by outward appearance regardless of the time of their baptism. Both sides of this issue can site examples of people who do not take their faith seriously.
thewordrules 3 months ago
So a guy on this website said that he got saved being baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. Do you concur?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
Here is some possible material for you next video. You could burn Jim at the stake for not saving the babies. I am looking forward to the sequel regardless. Good job Lutheran Satire. Funny.
William Sawtre, who was identified as a Lollard and Baptist. He was the first person burned at the stake after Henry IV's 1400 A.D. decree to burn heretics. His "crime" was he refused INFANT BAPTISM . Five hundred others who were identified as Anabaptists were also killed in England during this period.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching baptism of __________ for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4
Thank you for Lutheran Satire and all the great people on this site.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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From the Evidence Bible: Ray Comfort
While we should preach that all men are commanded to repent and be baptized. (Acts 2:38), adding any other requirement to salvation by grace becomes "works" in disguise. Even though numerous Scriptures speak of the importance of water baptism, adding anything to the work of the cross demeans the sacrifice of the Savior.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
From the Evidence Bible: Ray Comfort continued
It implies that His finished work wasn't enough. But the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace and grace alone (Eph 2:8-9). Baptism is simply a step of obedience to the Lord following our repentance and confession of sin. Our obedience- water baptism, prayer, good works, fellowship, witnessing, etc. - issues from our faith in Christ. Salvation is not based on what we do, but on Who we have. "He who has the Son has life" (1John 5:12)
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump baptism together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define baptism as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, baptism is not a human work, even though it does use an earthly element - water, applied by the Pastor. Pax.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Then prayer is not a work because Jesus taught us how to pray. Then witnessing is not a work because we are commanded the great commission. Am I right?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Well, prayer does not save us; Matthew 28:19 is addressed primarily to pastors. It hinges on Christ's authority over sin, his giving this authority also to pastors (those who hold the office of the ministry), commanding them to make disciples and spelling out how disciples are made - by baptism and teaching. Notice also that he said, "all nations" - not "baptizing adults who have willfully repented and realized their need for such."
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Baptism saves us but prayer doesn't. Baptism saves us but fulfilling the great commission doesn't. It seems you have picked Baptism to be an extra special over other works. I am not seeing why in your explanation. You say baptism is of God yet people are physically baptizing. Why can't I say prayer is of God for it moves me to Grace. Why can't I say fulfilling the great commission is of God for it moves me to Grace following your logic with Baptism.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I didn't single baptism out; God did in scripture. He didn't say "Prayer now saves you" or "Witnessing now saves you." Baptism is His work, not mine. No where in scripture does God promise salvation based on the merit or my prayer or my witnessing. Prayer and speaking the gospel are indeed beneficial works and are motivated by faith in God, but are not meritorious for salvation.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Where does it specifically say "Baptism now saves you" and "Communion now saves you"?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 1 Peter 3:21 (Baptism now saves you); Matthew 26:26-28 - Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and wafter blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Notice: bread = body; wine = blood; = forgiveness of sins (salvation)
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Jesus was in his body. How could he say the bread is my body too? I am all over the place. Like the Catholics, you have built a doctrine on a verse...that is dangerous. Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of Me. This is Catholic mysticism.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. One of God's attributes is omnipresence. I choose not to limit God to one time and one place. If He says, "This IS my body... This IS my blood...shed for you for the forgiveness of sins," I will have to take Him at His word.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
1 Peter 3:21 is not talking about the physical water removing the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Matthew 26:26-28 That isn't saying the wine in the cup is His blood. Your forgetting to read the whole passage. It was in remembrance of His actual shed blood that was going to be spilled. I really don't know why you get angry at the Catholics for adding to the cross. You are doing a similar thing and keeping a similar Catholic tradition.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Based on what are you interpreting the verses this way. On your logic or on the actual text. Jesus said, "This IS my body... This IS my blood." "Baptism (water combined with God's word) SAVES." Why assume that He didn't mean what he said?
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Why ignore do this in remembrance of Me?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Most people misunderstand what is actually meant by those words. It does not refer to simply recalling what Christ did. The response to this will not fit in one box, so bear with me...
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"Most people misunderstand what is actually meant by those words. "
Just like you misunderstand 1 Peter 3:21. Squirrygirl you believe in the Catholic sacraments and the mysticism if you want. Put scripture to it if you want. But at least consider the possibility that your denomination may be in error, maybe Galatians error. Search the scripture, read different commentaries, weigh scripture that appears contradictory. Pray before you read the Bible, ok..sleepy time. thx.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Have to be careful calling the spiritual mysticism. Many believe that half of Christianity is mystic. They say things like the Incarnation, Trinity, resurrection, virgin birth, animal sacrifice in the OT, are pagan things that Paul adopted.
thewordrules 3 months ago
Part 1: The meaning in this context is very different than we think of “remembering” things today. This term is used similarly when referring to the “remembrance” of the passover (remember: the Lord’s Supper first happened in the context of the Passover) Gamaliel wrote: “In every generation let each man look on himself as if he came forth out of Egypt.”...
squirrygirl 3 months ago
Part 2: ... One thing is clear here — the “remembrance” spoken of in the Words of Institution is not simply nostalgia. It’s not fond memories of the distant past. It actually communicates (literally conveys or gives) a participation in the events being described therein.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
Part 3: ... Further, it is not suggesting that the memorial is ours. It refers to Christ's memorial. That is, Jesus commands the disciples to do this. Do what? Eat and drink. Because whenever they [eat and] drink, it will be for Christ the thing that reminds Him of the forgiveness that was poured out on the Cross.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
Part 4: ... Now is Jesus saying that He is forgetful? By no means! Actually this is a common way that God makes a promise. He did this with Noah. God set the rainbow in the sky to be a reminder to Him (see Genesis 9:15) of His promise to Noah and to all mankind throughout the generations that He would not pour out His wrath and destroy the earth. (Matthew Lorfield)
squirrygirl 3 months ago
Re: "good conscience" - Rev. Eric Brown explains it this way: Now, as to the idea of the pledge (or “appeal” in the ESV) – in this we ought remember that Christ is the One who gathers His lost sheep, He is the one who cleanses us...
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"He is the one who cleanses us..."
Only if we trust in the work of the cross...and in that alone. I do not add to the finished work at Calvary. That is my only hope.....not in baptism (although I am baptized) not in communion (although I receive).
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Oh it is past midnight....I have to go to bed. Thanks for the responses.....I hope we both find truth.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
...(cont'd) He is the one who is our intercessor to the Father, the One who appeals to God on our behalf. Indeed in the verse this pledge, this appeal doesn’t come *through* our conscience, but rather through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is for us, it is for a good conscience (that we might have a clean conscience on account of Christ). The argument that Baptism is primarily an act of man doesn’t really
mesh with how this passage treats the idea.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
Pastor Todd Wilken is writing an article series on Matthew 28:19 that you might find useful. It is called "The Not So Great Commission" and is available free online on the Issues, etc. Journal (Summer '11).
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We are to let our lights shine before men so that or Father in heaven is glorified. Mt 5:16. And even then it is God who works in us both to work and to will his good pleasure. Phil2:13. We can never work for our righteousness for no good thing dwells in us. But God helps us do what is right. Romans 7: 18-25
thewordrules 3 months ago
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@squirrygirl
Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump prayer together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define prayer as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, prayer is not a human work, even though it does use words applied by the person praying......(using the same logic you use with Baptism)
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We are not promised salvation based on the merit of our prayers. Again, I invite you to cite scripture that would prove otherwise.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Again I can't because I only believe in the work of the cross. But I could give you scripture and twist it up a little. Anybody can.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 You cannot in good conscience create doctrine without a basis in clear scripture. If you claim that prayer saves, this must be based on scripture. Otherwise it is a false doctrine.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
But that is what you are doing. You are picking and choosing your good works to add to the cross and misapplying a Bible verse to support it. Let me show you. I take a scripture and pretend I believe it. I became a Christian and because I did all my Buddhist family did as well Acts 16:31. Try prove me wrong. The only way you can do that is show me other scriptures that clarify this misrepresentation. I showed you this with both Baptism and explained communion.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Okay, based on scripture that I choose to recognize, my Buddhist family is saved because I am a Christian. Acts 16:31
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump communion together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define communion as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, communion is not a human work, even though it does use an earthly element - bread, applied by the Pastor. Pax.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Exactly - communion is God's work. It is a gift from God, wherein He has promised us forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28). This is grace and salvation. The fact that God happens to employ human hands in some form or fashion in this act does not then make it man's work; God is doing the forgiving and saving. The pastor acts under the authority of the office of the ministry, an authority given to them in Matt 28:19 (which doesn't primarily speak of the layperson going and witnessing).
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Okay so we are going to add communion and baptism to the work of the cross. I did that as a Catholic as well. Very similar.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Christ's death and resurrection won (secured) grace. The means of grace deliver it. If I have purchased a gift for someone, don't I still have to deliver it to them somehow? Yes. Has the need for delivery somehow negated the fact that I have secured the gift for them? No. God, in His infinite wisdom, determined what means He wished to use for that delivery. To reject them and say, "I don't agree with that, therefore you are wrong, God." seems quite dangerous... (continued...)
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl Man's logic and wisdom can never be a replacement for what is plainly taught in Scripture, no matter how much we would like it to be.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Do you use the term "Catholic" to mean "Roman Catholic"? This would be a misunderstanding. Catholic means universal, indicating the true faith common to all in the Body of Christ irrespective of time or space. True, Roman Catholicism has some glaring errors that have arisen, but believing that all doctrines or traditions that we have in common with Roman Catholicism are automatically suspect is equally specious.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
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@squirrygirl
Yes, but this only works if we continue to lump witnessing together with "works of men". It is not a work of Man; it is a work of God, commanded in God's Word, for the purpose of delivering grace to us. As long as we define witnessing as a human work, then your argument is completely valid. But, gladly, witnessing is not a human work, even though it does use an bodily element - speaking applied by the speaker.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Witnessing is a work of man. We do not merit salvation by how well or how often we witness. I invite you to present relevant scripture to prove otherwise.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
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@squirrygirl
Witnessing is a work of man. We do not merit salvation by how well or how often we witness. I invite you to present relevant scripture to prove otherwise.
I don't believe in adding anything to the cross so there is no scripture that I am interested in quoting you although I could give some and explain it falsely. Are you having a good day? Thanks for writing me again.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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"Witnessing is a work of man."
The Holy Spirit has given us power to witness and testify. Do you deny this?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Do I deny that this is scripture? No. Do I deny that this is referring universally to the concept of "witnessing" rather than specifically to the sending of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles after the Ascension? Yes. "Us" is a specific 1st person plural pronoun referring back to the speaker/writer, not generally to all believers. This is not a reference to God performing a work for the purpose of delivering the forgiveness of sins (which is how we're discussing baptism and communion).
squirrygirl 3 months ago
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Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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Taiwan1997 3 months ago
"Therefore any religious rite is void." A man made religious rite is void, as in baby dedication. Jesus explains the futility of man made rules in Matthew 15: 1-9 ; Mk 7:1-13. The latter even explaining how man made tradition makes the Word "of none effect". However, following a command of Christ is not void. Matthew 28: 19-20; Mt 4:4; 2 Thess 3:6.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
Yes, we baptize repentant, regenerated believers....not infants who are not repentant. How can a parent be repentant for an infant? It makes no sense to me but a lot of sense to you. Agree to disagree.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 "and" is an inclusive conjunction, meaning both things are included. It does not set a precedence of order. In Jesus command to baptize he says baptize and then teach. No mention of repenting first. If I invited you for soup and salad would you think I did not follow through correctly because I put the salad out first? Of course not. Now if I never offered the soup you'd have a right to say I did not completely follow through on my offer.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@bumnus Prior to the Resurrection, salvation came through faith in the promise of the Messiah. This is why Paul can write of Abraham and other Old Testament people being saved. Since then, God speaks to us through his Son, whom we receive through the Means of Grace - Baptism, Communion, Confession/Absolution, Word (Scripture/Preaching). I am sure that one of my Lutheran brother/sisters will help to correct or clarify this if I am misunderstanding it.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
Yes, they were saved by faith but Christ had to redeem them by His precious blood.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
Love it! I was talking to a synergistic gal the other day. She insisted that faith was a "choice" and not a gift from God. Her best example of this was that a child's belief in Santa Claus is a choice; therefore, we choose to accept Christ. I told her that wasn't a Biblical allusion...and she asked why not. Lord deliver us. :-)
AnHonestChristian 3 months ago
@bumnus That isn't because your baptism was a failure. Are you to say that no one who has been baptized as an infant has ever known who Jesus was? People like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc. All three of whom continued in that confession. When Jesus commanded baptism, he also commanded to teach. So, baptism isn't where you are to end. Baptism is the beginning. (In regards to your 5 points, you nullified grace. Salvation is dependent upon your actions/doings. The HSpirit makes a Xian.)
Vikingsia20 3 months ago
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@Vikingsia20
"Are you to say that no one who has been baptized as an infant has ever known who Jesus was? "
If the person that was baptized as an infant "repents and believes" then he could know Jesus, irrespective of the infant baptism. That is scripture.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Vikingsia20
Did not Augustine, Luther, Calvin believe and teach repentance? Infant baptism is a Catholic rite and unfortunately some of the Catholic practices came with Luther. Luther was not perfect in his break from the church.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Yes, but repentance is impossible prior to faith. Baptism delivers grace, by faith. Is it the ONLY means of grace? No. Is it a normal (the usual way of things) means of grace commanded by the Word of God as the way that people are normally to be brought into the body of Christ, yes. Baptism is not strictly a Roman Catholic rite, nor did Luther intend to "break from the Church".
squirrygirl 3 months ago
What does it say about Christianity that they can't even agree on basic issues like Baptism even after 2,000 years?
RealityCheck23834 3 months ago
@RealityCheck23834 It says that Christianity is filled with human beings. Human beings mess up (as Christians say, we all sin). Therefore, any group of sinful human beings, will have division and conflict. The only place we will be free of this conflict is the resurrection.
Vikingsia20 3 months ago
@Vikingsia20
According to scripture, there will be false Christs, false teachers, and false brethren. That is why we are given the parables of the sower, wheat/tares, sheep/goats, good/bad fish, wise/foolish virgins. We are to be discerning. we are to seek truth, we are to exercise righteous judgment. This has nothing to do with being Human beings and everything to do with God's truth. We must have this truth before the resurrection. Only by the blood of the crucified one.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@RealityCheck23834 It is not a reflection on Christianity, but rather a reflection on the fallen state of mankind. We cannot by our own reason or will understand the things of God. This reflects poorly on us, not on Christianity itself.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@RealityCheck23834 It says that they are not all going by the Bible. They are adding to or taking away from the written Word.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@bumnus "realizes" "asks", "desires"- All works of man.1 Cor 2:14, John 3:6, Romans 8:7. Ezekial 34:1,15
The thief never asked Jesus to save him, or to come into is heart. This is a descriptive passage not prescriptive. It does not set a precedence or pattern.
Isaiah 55:11-His Word accomplishes what it says. Ezekiel 36 :22-27; Titus 3:4-7; Acts 22:16,(Paul by the way had to be knocked to the ground, he made no decision) John 6:44. Always his work to and upon us, never our work toward him.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@bumnus I only mentioned the age of accountability (not in scripture) because of your "when does the baptism shield where off" comment. The Bible says believe and be baptized so I will follow the command of my Lord and do both. Age is not given. They can occur in any order. Following a command is not a work, it is being obedient to Christ's words. Paul had to die daily and so does every Christian. Many scriptures say that we can turn our back and walk away from the faith.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@bumnus I'm sorry but I'm not quite getting your comment. The Bible says God's Word will not return back to him void, it is efficacious. Our decisions are zip; in fact, dead (unregenerate) men can't make decisions, they need resuscitation from the Holy Spirit. Jesus said no one comes to him except the Father draws him. That word draw was used of boats being pulled ashore; not an easy chore once out of water. We come being dragged by the Father to his son, we don't decide to do it.
thewordrules 4 months ago
"I'm thankful God made a way through baptism to cleanse us."
Sorry, you can trust baptism to cleanse you if you want....I trust in the blood of the crucified One...in that and in that alone.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 baptism is God's way of bringing that cleansing to us. Sad that people who are dead in their sin
(Eph 2) think that their decision is greater than the Almighty's grace. Dead mean can't make decisions, they need to be resuscitated.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@thewordrules
Thanks but I will continue to trust in the blood to cleanse my sin. What do you do with the thief on the cross? He never got baptized. What do you do with someone who repents on their death bed?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago 2
@Taiwan1997 As will I. I won't trust in the decision of a sinful man, rather in the sovereignty and grace of an Almighty God, and the scripture which says that baptism washes and regenerates by the power of God, not the decision of men.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@thewordrules
Scripture says that blood washes and the Spirit regenerates us. Saved by the blood of the crucified one. Thanks for your discussion on this very important topic. We both must be diligent and seek the scriptures. There is a right answer here. God bless you brother. It is night time in Taiwan. I appreciate you and I love Lutheran Satire....so funny and such an original idea.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Awesome theme song. Woeful logic.
thebrade 4 months ago
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@bumnus "When does the baby baptism shield wear off?" Probably the same time the age of accountability sets in. Anyone can lose their salvation if they turn away from God, so even those folks who have been told to repeat the sinners prayer can walk away. In fact, many say that prayer through emotional goading and were never really moved to true repentance by the Holy Spirit.
thewordrules 4 months ago
Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you. Let's seek the truth.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Check out the Evidence Bible by Ray Comfort from livingwaters.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Let' talk about this.....please don't remove this post....it is so important.....I want to hear the rebuttal
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
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One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We are told to both believe and be baptized. Jesus said to baptize and teach when we make disciples. Peter said the promise is for your children. I do not have a problem with God wanting to extend his grace in a miraculous way even to children. If scripture says we are evil from our youth Gen 8:21. Strongs youth is 5271, 5288- and translates babe, child, childhood, then I'm thankful God made a way through baptism to cleanse us.
thewordrules 4 months ago
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@Taiwan1997 We are told to both believe and be baptized. Jesus said to baptize and teach when we make disciples. Peter said the promise is for your children. I do not have a problem with God wanting to extend his grace in a miraculous way even to children. If scripture says we are evil from our youth Gen 8:21. Strong's youth is 5271, 5288- and translates babe, child, childhood, then I'm thankful God made a way through baptism to cleanse us.
thewordrules 4 months ago
This would mean that we were not justified by faith because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe, not when we get baptized, otherwise we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Again, I will ask:
Why is there no recorded scripture of an infant getting baptized? (This started in the Catholic church as I understand church history). I could be wrong.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
So we can be "flip" with the Anabaptists but don't be "flip" with the Lutherans. Am I understanding the rules correctly?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Why did John leaped within his mothers womb at the announcement of Mary's pregnancy. The psalms and Jesus say out of the mouths of babes God is praised. God knows us before our inward parts are formed. The bottom line for me is Jesus telling all nations to be baptized and then taught all he has commanded. Mt 28. Peter says the promise is for you and your children in Acts. Neither mention an age of accountability. What is this age? It is God's action to us, never ours to him.
thewordrules 4 months ago
It was the song that convinced me :)
Halflifer20 4 months ago
@bumnus Since the Bible says that our hearts are deceitful above all else and desperately wicked, how does one know when to make the big decision? And was Jesus not serious when he said You MUST be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? What scriptures make exceptions for some based on age or mental capabilities? By one man sin entered and affects all according to scripture. It says all have sinned, not all will sin.
thewordrules 4 months ago
How can a baby receive His word?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 John leaped in his mothers womb at the news of Mary's pregnancy. It is a Spirit to Spirit thing, the carnal mind can not comprehend or reason this out. David said he trusted in God while he was still at his mother's breast.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I think the Lord can communicate with us at any age. In Psalm 22: 9-10 David says-" yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust (hope in the KJV) you at my mother's breast. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
thewordrules 4 months ago
Respond to this video... If the sin of the first Adam is not imputed to us before an age of accountability, than the justification of the second Adam is not either. You can't have it both ways. the wages of sin is death and babies die. Genesis is not only referring to spiritual death due to the sin of the first Adam.
thewordrules 4 months ago
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nicoXP3712 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I would check out Rev. Fisk's YouTube videos (revfiskj) on Baptism if you haven't yet. He has a two video primer on Baptism entitled "Got Baptism? Onepoint-OH!" and "Got Baptism Too? Point-Oooohhhh!!!" Another video, "Holy Shark Boxing" addresses some of the common questions such as the necessity of Baptism, the thief on the cross, etc.
jessep28 4 months ago
Out of all the people who got baptized (I have mention the Ethiopian eunuch). The thief on the cross.......why wasn't there at least one mention of an infant/child getting baptized?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Can I just take one verse and make a doctrin. Okay let me try. I'll go with Acts 16:31 You will be saved, you and your whole household.
So that would then mean that because I became a born again Christian by Buddhist family members are all saved. Agree?
We have to take all the verses that apply to salvation or we are going to fall off in all kind of ditches.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I agree it is incorrect to make a doctrine out of any single verse. The whole theme of scripture is God redeeming sinful men because no one is good, no one seeks God. He seeks us out and we respond. In many protestant churches 2,3 and 4 year old children stand and sing of being Jesus little lambs, and that "he lives in my heart". When do you tell them, "well that's not actually true.; now that you've reached the age of accountability he left and you have to ask him in?
thewordrules 4 months ago
Another scenerio
This heathen family just lost their baby boy (Joey) in a drowning. They are heartbroken. They decide to go to the Lutheran church. 9 months later they have another baby boy (Timmy). They baptize Timmy. Question where are Joey and Timmy spending eternity.
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We can never say who is or is not in eternity actually. Only God knows the heart. There are some pretty nice wolves in sheep's clothing out there that we might assume are saved because we look on the outward appearance.Read Numbers 16 concerning the rebellion of Korah,Dathan and Abiram. Even the children and little ones were swallowed up into Sheol because these men despised the Lord. Doesn't seem fair to me, but I don't question God.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@thewordrules
Oh, I agree with you but if infant baptism does what this video says it does the question remains. Where is Joey and where is Timmy?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Only God knows the answer to that question. Prior to the 1500's Christian churches baptized babies. Only after The Enlightenment did we begin to approach the Word through reason instead of believing by faith exactly what it says. The Bible does say it is a narrow road and few their be that find it. Many liberal Christian groups have had trouble with that so now they say all people will be saved in the end. We must trust in the sovereignty of God for many unanswered questions.
thewordrules 4 months ago
@thewordrules Totally - just because something is disturbing to think about doesn't make it untrue.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl Hello. Catholic 19 yrs. Evangelical x33 wherein I made decision for Christ at least 6 times. In times of uncertainty or trial I was told maybe I wasn't sincere enough when I asked Jesus to be my Savior" It wasn't until I received sound biblical teaching from the Lutheran church,that I learned to go by the Word 100% and not by my emotions, or decisions. Only then did I really rest in what Christ did for me. What a blessing!
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
What was your decision for Christ when you were an Evangelical?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 At 19 some evangelicals told me that I wasn't a Christian "until" I asked Jesus into my heart, to be my personal Lord and Savior. Since Catholics didn't read the Bible at that time I believed them. I did by the way realize that Jesus died for my sins and I did believe that he was the only true God. They just told me it meant nothing unless I made a decision to ask him to be my Savior. To this day many think that getting someone to repeat the "sinner's prayer" saves souls.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
But what did you believe? Did you believe in grace alone or not? I had the same experience and I was deceived for 33 years by the asking Jesus into your heart thing and the personal relationship. But I believed in grace alone all the way through the whole experience.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@thewordrules
So I am not getting why you think you are saved now and not saved before.....having faith in Christ alone.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 When we think our decision is what saves us, as opposed to a work of God's grace to us, in times of trial we wonder if our decision was good enough. Now I realize that my salvation was a complete work of God's grace and him drawing me. I go by the Word not a decision I made.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
So when did you get saved and how do you know that you are saved?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Without intending to sound trite, I was saved 2000 years ago when Christ was incarnated, crucified, died, was buried, and rose again from the dead - which secured God's grace for me and all sinners. This grace was delivered to me individually in my baptism, which is God's work and is commanded in God's word.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I know that I am saved because this is God's promise. I trust that God is not a liar. This is the only place that assurance can be found - not in my own assessment of whether or not I think I have the Spirit (based on a feeling?), whether or not I am outwardly obeying the Law closely enough, whether I am sufficiently repentant, or any other assurance which begins with me.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"I know that I am saved because this is God's promise. I trust that God is not a liar. "
God is not a liar. We are the liars when we take verses that don't belong to us. I did this. When I was a false convert I would take the passage " He will never never never never never leave nor forsake you." and because of this verse that never applied to an unrepentant sinner...I continued to live in my debauchery believing that I had eternal security and that I was a chosen one.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Lutherans do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security. As Paul said in Romans 6:1-2; "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid....We must renew our minds and prove what is good, acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2. I've known many an adult convert who lived a life of sin and felt eternally secure because they "said" the sinners prayer. I try to follow Phil 2:12-mind my own heart and know Christ is working in me for my good.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
I agree with you on the sinners prayer and easy believism is false teaching. But so is I was saved as a Catholic infant. It is going from one false teaching to another. Thanks for informing me that the Lutherans do not believe in the doctrine of eternal security. I was ignorant of that fact. I put all the reformers in one basket. I thought Martin Luther would have believed that we are eternally secure because Salvation is of the Lord. I am praying for you my friend.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"whether or not I am outwardly obeying the Law closely enough, whether I am sufficiently repentant, or any other assurance which begins with me."
Then why do Lutherans believe you can lose your salvation? A mustard seed of faith and repentance is all you need if it comes from God.....and those seeds will grow...if it comes from God.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Because we also do not believe that begin saved erases the continued effects and struggle with our Original Sin. Humans have a corrupt nature that is hostile to God and which cannot but sin continually. The Old Adam must daily be drowned as we remember our baptism. While a person cannot willfully choose God, he can and does willfully reject God and his forgiveness. When we reject or deny the need for God's forgiveness, we can lose the faith that apprehends that grace for us.
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 I now understand that I was saved, made a member of God's family, at my baptism as an infant. This is a promise found in many passages. It is a gift of God. I continued in the faith as a Catholic believing always that Christ died for my sins. It was incorrect evangelical teaching that told me I had to make a decision to be saved. As I did not like to worldliness of the churches I was attending, I began to look around. We started attending a Lutheran church 3 yrs ago. Part 2 follows
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
Thanks so much for sharing. This really helps me understand the Lutheran church. I know a lot of Lutherans but I admit I am ignorant of their faith and practices. So let's see if I get this right. You were saved as a Catholic baby. You continued to pray to Mary, confession to a priest, while you were saved. You found Evangelical church to be worldly but not Catholic or Lutheran churches. Did I get this right? You have a great day and thanks for your testimony.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Correct. I no longer pray to Mary. As far as confession, if we have a sin that is particularly difficult and we are feeling guilty, we can go to private confession. We believe that pastors have been put in a place by vocation to extend the forgiveness of Christ to us by expressing what the Word says. We do not believe any man has powers to forgive our sin, only Christ can do that. Pastors bring the gospel of forgiveness to us though,in the stead of Christ.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Part 2. It was then that I learned the proper teaching about salvation; that it is a miraculous work of God. It is his action towards sinners, never ours toward him. Once you are saved, either as a child or adult, then the Lord continues to work in your life to sanctify you. (Phil 2:13) Each Sunday he blesses me and extends grace toward me through the Word and Holy communion. He draws me do good works to glorify his name, not to gain favor. (Mt 5;16) Part 3 follows
thewordrules 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997 In the OT babies were circumcised without their decision and made children of God. God is, and always has been, the author and perfecter of our faith. We do not choose to write our own book. He is always the initiator and we the blessed recipients of grace. John 6: 44; John 6:65; John 15:16; John 17: 2,9; Romans 3:11; 1 Cor 2:14Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; Psalm 65:4. Lastly I believe baptism and belief are equally important by command not as a work we can boast in. Mt 28:19 Mk 16:16.
thewordrules 3 months ago
@thewordrules
Have you ever heard any Paul Washer sermons?
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@thewordrules
Thank you again for sharing with me. I look forward to hearing your answers. I am so tired. I must go to bed. God bless you and thank you for all the time you have spent explaining this all to me. Not just this time, but before. That's love.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
@Taiwan1997
Where is Joey? Where is Timmy?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@bumnus Sola fide? I don't understand. Are you arguing that the natural state of a child is to have faith?
TheLutheranSatire 4 months ago 3
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jcfiene 4 months ago
"Rather, I believe the benefits of baptism are received through faith."
How can a baby have faith?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 The same way that an adult, who is dead in sin and incapable of choosing the things of God, can have faith. By the Holy Spirit creating faith in Him through the Word.
TheLutheranSatire 4 months ago 6
@TheLutheranSatire
But I got saved when I repented and believed both gifts of the Holy Spirit.....then I got baptized....
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 This statement assumes a common misconception - namely, that faith originates with the believer. Rather, faith originates with the object of that faith. We receive saving faith from God; it does not begin with us. It also assumes that faith is inherently rational and self-aware. A baby's faith in his parents does not originate with the baby, and the baby's faith in the parents does not have be rational to be efficacious. (cont'd below)
squirrygirl 3 months ago
@squirrygirl
"A baby's faith in his parents does not originate with the baby, and the baby's faith in the parents does not have be rational to be efficacious."
Can you give me a bible verse that supports this thought.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
Respond to this video... .... The efficacy of the faith does not depend on the baby understanding his relationship to the parent or even being aware of such.
squirrygirl 3 months ago