In my opinion, they are discussing to very different things...
Chris always says how i IS, while Sam addresses why the current situation is bad, and how it should be instead... And both the moderator and Chris fails to recognize the problems that Sam are addressing, he says that there IS suicide bombing occuring, and the quran holds violent phrases.
I feel sorry for Sam, arguing for Atheism to Christians and Muslims is like teaching math to a monkey.
@shaxanth27 I believe Shear indicated earlier in the debate that he is atheist. What he actually said here, in reference to the debaters, was " I remain an agnostic as to their differences".
Happily we do not asses public opinion by having New York times journalist go out and live in the Muslim world and make friends and get a vibe. A single well run opinion poll would be worth a thousand years of you wandering the middle east. Sam Harris
Am I mistaken or did Hedges just say that fundamentalism (and the context of the debate would make the fundamentalism RELIGIOUS) is secular in nature?
from pew dot org- Full question wording: Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?
I'm pretty far to the left and I don't get it either. I think it may be because people of Harris' ilk have done such a great job of making postmodernist platitudes seem silly and/or dangerous. It is kinda like the whole Stephen Jay Gould vs Edmund Wilson and Richard Dawkins dynamic.
while I admire both Scheer and Hedges in their work reporting on the fascism and lies in this country and the rest of the world ya gotta admit that Sam OWNS this *debate*...the crazy religious fundamentalist whackos of ANY religion are the fucktards causing ALL of the problems in this world!
"I mean if you really believe in afterlife, you think it's ok to suicide", Sam forgets the underlying causes hedges describes for considering suicide in the first place, Sam seems to be concerned weak people will engage in desperate extremes under despairing conditions. Finally to have an honest conversation about religion is to recognize hedge's did acknowledge fundamentalism, did not downplay it as sam tried to mock it, but presents the real underlying causes to which sam reluctantly agrees.
@architect333 Americans against gays and abortion aren't poor people living in physical or intellectual despair, but religious peoples. Get over it, religion is bad, always been, reason beats it every step of the way.
'Support suicide bombing in DEFENSE of Islam against non combatants' what a joke, combatants attacking Islam is all they have ever known thanks to American's foreign policy+weapons selling industry. Either way, no different from the American response to aggressively invade and murder the majority of non combatants of entire nation's in defense of "homeland security". Sam's position was weak and hedges clearly showed it, love the constant hate comments at moderator to help illustrate it.
Yes, Mr moderator the world has changed Since WWII and even Viet Nam. We have more knowledge now. And Viet Nam carpet bombing was wrong also, so equating the two doesn't score you points.
Chris asserts that 'fundamentalism is born out of desperation and despair' - Really? Are you sure Chris? Are the multi-millionaire leaders of Christian fundamentalists or the multi-billionaire Saudi leaders that fund the Islamic fundamentalism only grasping at straws when they step off of their private jets into the desperation of a barren limousine that only has 4 out of the 5 spring waters they clearly requested?
@InternalCompass "multi-millionaire leaders of Christian fundamentalists"
The topic in this section was Muslim fundamentalism. Fail #1.
"multi-billionaire Saudi leaders"
Multi-billionaire Saudis are TARGETS of fundamentalism, not a funding source. Fail #2.
Sorry for the complexity. But, it seems,complexity, or the incapability of Harris' fan boys to grasp it, is at the root of every pro-Harris comment here.
Further, I guarantee, every Harris fan boy posting here is relatively young.
@bapyou I agree with you that these are very complex issues which ironically seems to have escaped you. But thanks for a good laugh as you not only label me a 'fan-boy', but also 'guarantee' that I and other pro-Harris commenters are 'relatively young'. Aheem [clearing throat], you guarantee do you? I guess I must be a relatively young 42 year old fanboy and I didn't even know it, thanks for enlightening all of us. Unless perhaps your guarantee is worth about as much as your judgement.
@InternalCompass 42 you say? I've got ten years on you. One day you'll, perhaps, realize what simplistic drivel passing for intellectual investigation Harris peddles.
I was wrong about something: The discussion was about fundamentalism in general, not merely Islamic fundamentalism. Those fallen under the spell of American right-wing fundamentalism are, by and large, the dispossessed lower classes, despite the wealthy footing the bill of its media arm.
@bapyou Harris is a smug boy? He's the smug one? really? OK. Thank you for enlightening us all.
As you assert, anyone younger than 52 years old has not yet matured enough to grasp anything? Thank you for your wisdom! Do you want me to continue? Do we need to ask what old man's dictionary contains the word 'incapability' that doesn't appear in our inferior junior ones?
Do I have many more questions to ask of your obvious wisdom? Well, humbly YES!
@bapyou well that's only YOUR opinion, Hedges is bright and has some good points but Sam OWNS this debate, and he's anything but *smug* here, he just flat lays out the truth for all to see...too bad you don't get it (oh, and I've got 10 years on you, which doesn't mean shit cuz being ill-informed can happen at any age, and you certainly have shown that to be true with your ignorant remarks)
@bapyou I've been patiently waiting for more of your wisdom, but alas I realize such triviality is beneath someone as old and as wise as you've asserted yourself to be.
I must apologize for my youthful mistake of caring about demonstrable facts and seemingly conclusive truths.
I now realize that you are so far above our limited youthful understandings of language or dictionaries or definitions of words or historical facts, my sincere apologies Sir.
@InternalCompass "I must apologize for my youthful mistake of caring about demonstrable facts and seemingly conclusive truths."
You don't care about facts or truth in the least. And quit with the psuedo-intellectual horeshit.
Harris is out of his depth here; Hedges smothers him. Harris's fan boys seemingly can't see the forest for the motherfucking trees: he peddles easily understood, philosophically simplistic drivel. Hedges' work is far more challenging. Your comments prove my point.
@bapyou Wow! you are amazing! Let me bow down to you! Wow! I fully expected someone of your stature to insult me with common words easily found in the dictionary but then WOW, once again you step outside the lines, you are so amazing! Wow!
Most youthful morons might try to insult someone with the phrase "intellectual horse shit", but you sir take it to another level and insult with the excrement of whores. Wow, amazing, I'm speechless Sir!
Your phrase "intellectual horeshit" pure gold Sir!
@bapyou Please don't leave us all waiting for more of your Genius, please consider it a public service, a sacrifice from someone of your highly asserted intellectual level trickling down little by little upon the lower youthful and ignorant masses.
On behalf of my fellow under 52 year old morons, we thank you in advance Sir!
Wow, the moderator thinks it's okay to lie to try to show Sam Harris is wrong, His characterization of the Pew poll was very misleading. Evidently he hasn't figured out that one's words are now recorded forever. He can't just say that hundreds of people "misunderstood" him.
The comments here seem to be very pro-Sam Harris, but the fact is he doesn't defend his position very well. While it's true religion is responsible for many of society's woes (e.g. gay marriage ban), Harris' can't defend his argument that religion is the primary cause of extreme violence in the MIddle East, or really that it's the primary cause of violence in the 21st century (it's obviously not as the two most violent movements, in Russia and Germany, were explicitly secular).
@superflat44 Wrong. You strike me as someone who has never read any of Harris' books or articles. He addresses both issues, the first-that Hariris can't defend the proposition of religion as primary cause for violence in the Middle East- as a matter of fact in this very debate (recall the part about the difference OF ideas i.e. Jainism vs. Islam) and the second-that atheism has lead to the greatest secular genocides in history-has been destroyed time and again, not just by Harris but by others.
If this debate where a baseball game, it would consist of Sam throwing surgical strikes over home plate - But only during the rare moments when the game is not being interrupted by the senile umpire showcasing his soccer skills by kicking a baseball around the field. While Chris spends the entire game alone in far left field frenetically swinging his bat in the cloud of dust created as be repeatedly beats and lectures the same old poorly constructed straw-men.
The so-called "moderator" not only violates the most basic role that a moderator must play in a debate, but when he does interrupt, he reveals himself to be an idiot attacking straw man arguments about Vietnam and Hiroshima. Then the cherry on the top is his bitching about running out of time, when the problem was this moderator running his mouth.
I can't believe how ridiculously bad the arguments against Harris were in this debate. They were barely arguments against him! Again and again, points were made that had absolutely nothing to do with his position, and every time he tried to make this clear, he was ignored.
I disagree with Sam about Gay issue. The dislike of gays comes from evolution. People want their children to breed more children. Being Gay, you are less likely to breed, unless you go out of your way to donate sperm or donate your body for a birth from a man that you are not interested in if you are a lesbian. Since you will not have offspring, this is not good for evolution. THerefore in evolution we have disliked gays because they aren't breeding more of the selfish gene.
@Drgamedood Please explain why James Watson, an atheist, dislikes gays and would prefer if they were aborted at birth. Many atheists are homophobic and I've struggled to find a reason as to why this is. The reason is just like I told you, moron. James Watson and other atheists that are homophobic do not believe a line from the bible. The bible came from evolution, too - humans created it and were homophobic before the bible existed, otherwise how would they have written the bible, Sherlock.
@SeeProfileForDetails Of course not all people are homophobic because of the bible. But Sam is specifically talking about gay rights, such as gay marriage. And most people who protest gay marriage are doing it for religious reasons. Just look up americans protesting gay marriage and they constantly say, with pride, that they oppose gay marriage because it is a sin.
@Drgamedood You're contradicting what you said yourself. You said the dislike og gays comes from the bible. I proved you wrong. You come up with a new argument completely orthogonal, now claiming that the bible is against gay marriage - which I already am aware of.
@Drgamedood but think deeper. Where does the bible come from? from people's thoughts. Some homophobic people wrote the bible because their brains, hormones, and anatomy evolved to be homophobic, as a protection in evolution against non breeding offspring. Since gay people don't generally breed offspring (unless they donate sperm), it is evolutionarily bad to have gay children. Homophobic people, I think, are a product of evolution - and the bible writers were a sample of those homophobics
@Drgamedood I'm not certain which reasons are the most. I have heard many people say it's because homosexuality is disgusting, without mentioning religion. Sadly, feeling something is disgusting is all the reason some people need.
Sam knows reason and intelligence trump religious ignorance. Unfortunately, ignorance and stupidity take generations to debunk.
It took the catholic church 385 years to issue an apology to Galileo for his inquisition and permanent exile for an observation that contradicted holy scripture. His crime: the earth is not the center of the universe.
Oh that witchcraft straw-man was bad... missed the point. He's comparing Witchcraft to American Policy and other modern sources of despair that muslims are facing (which is the Hedges' argument he's trying to dissemble). He totally misses the point.
what muslims believe about 72 virgins is just like witchcraft. What is sensible about believing you get 72 housemaids or 72 sluts in heaven? This is even MORE ridiculous than witchcraft, and it is extremely sexist. What do the women get, 72 male porn stars in heaven with big cockers? Or do the women just go to heaven to become prostitutes for the men that go to heaven? This is less rational than witchcraft? no, it is just as irrational as witchcraft and we need to speak against it, NOW.
@johnpotter26 I'm hell of a lot smarter than you. I refuted all of your shitty comments regarding this debate. You even spouted your garbage on the four horsemen documentary. get the fuck outta here.
@Drgamedood lol you really think you did. Dunning-Kruger effect my friend
I know i am physically, intellectually, and sexually more powerful than you. If you would like to go on a date sometime we can further embarrass you <3
So why did Joseph Stacks crash his plane into the IRS building? He wasn't a despairing Jain or despairing Muslim. He was simply despaired. We need to recognize that American policy creates despairing people who feel their only outlet is to bomb themselves and kill their oppressors. Islam encourages this but they would not go bombing people if it weren't for the despair placed upon them.
THANK YOU HEDGES! We need to REENFRANCHISE THESE PEOPLE!! Thats exactly right.
@johnpotter26 American policy creates 72 virgin myths? People become Jainists because of USA policy? people become buddhists because of USA policy? If muslims don't want violence toward their countries, why fly planes into buildings? Do Jainists have that problem? Why not just write books, about america, using your words? Why aren't their muslim authors criticizing america? that would not cause a war, flying planes into buildings would cause war!
So why did Joseph Stacks crash his plane into the IRS building? He wasn't a despairing Jain or despairing Muslim. He was simply despaired. We need to recognize that American policy creates despairing people who feel their only outlet is to bomb themselves and kill their oppressors. Islam encourages this but they would not go bombing people if it weren't for the despair placed upon them
I absolutely loved Sam's analogy to witchcraft - that was brilliant. I was afraid about Godwin's law when he invoked Nazism but he used that masterfully as well.
@rahdisas what about godwins law when people like Hedges call america fascist, along with Aaron Russo and his freedom to fascism movie... that's also saying america is hitler too.
It seems to me that both the moderator and Chris seem to say that religion isn't the primary cause of all the grief caused by religion. Sam seems to attack this by saying that religion is. This is definitely plausible but it is harder to argue than simply asserting that the veracity of beliefs matters.
If indeed Muslims are doing suicide bombings because of reasons other than religion - it is important to remove this false mask (which the people themselves profess) and expose the true reasons
To all the commentors who wonder why Sam Harris isn't going apeshit on the moderator is because (unlike the majority of people posting here) he KNOWS who Robert Scheer is! And the idea that Scheer is "siding" with Hedges is bullshit! He's pointedly directing the conversation because Hedges has a minority opinion from the audience.
"That moderator", who is pissing off the furrowed-brow set, is Robert Scheer, one of the strongest political commentators & agreesive social critics of the past 50 years. He's infuriated every leader from LBJ to Reagan to Dubya. To the morons who think he should be taking an "Alex Trebek" role in this, imagine if the debate was between Chris Hedges & Glenn Greenwald and Sam Harris was the moderator. Would you wany Sam to stay out of the conersation? No. And neither does Scheer! Christ, READ UP!!
I think you hit the nail on its head. The moderator here if I understand you correctly isa known social commentator. Clearly he cannot shake his role when moderating and I must say it didn't seem that he tried that hard either. And I must add that thinking that anecdotal evidence is better evidence than polls is plain silly and undermines his already shaky arguments.
It's amazing that these two old white men feel such inclincation to protect Islam. It's like here in Canada, where we've had the merits of multicultralism drilled in our head since age 5, that white people are so afraid to say that some cultures suck -- or even are afraid to *recognise* that some cultures are simply bad for society!
I applaud Sam trying to have an honest and open conversation...extremely difficult to make happen...keep up the good work Sam...oh and "Truthdig"...not sure where you're coming from with this "Moderator"...I for one am not convinced he's interested in "digging the truth"...
@lordEnder88 - I completly agree about the moderator. He obviously wanted to be part of the discussion which is a 'no go' for a chairman but even then added nothing to the discussion & hampered it at every interesting angle that developed. This debate would have been of the best in my opinion as, even though i generally agree with Harris, Hedges was doing a good job at challenging Harris views which not many people can do
Such a shame the mod stopped all interesting comments in their tracks
@MyDutchOven - Yeah I really do agree with what you're saying there. I thought Hedges had Sam on the ropes a few times throughout. The only other time I've ever seen Sam even come close to beaten on almost any point was when Azlan bullied him into submission with his 'YOU WEREN'T THERE SO YOU DON'T KNOW' tirade. Couldn't challenge his arguments, just knew that yelling was not something Harris was comfortable with.
Despair is part of the human condition: Because of human hierarchy, because life is a huge risk, because status and security are sought by all and yet not obtainable by all. It' true that it does matter what you believe and do during your despair. (and it matters to those in power over others how they can manipulate your despair to achieve their ends, and maintain their power.) Both people have a point- and it is that humans are animals that compete with force and with ideology. Body and mind.
This "moderator" was biased and a lousy choice. He obviously set out to make a point and his comments ended any chance of a true debate. What an arrogant ass.
@niinja2 I think his point here was that there should not exist a philosophy that allows a person to become willing and eager to end their lives in such a way as to kill a bunch of other people at the same time.
well yeah , but this is more of a problem of your values and idols, if your idol is a mafia caracter your identity will be fulfilled by killing other people.Afro americans in poor neiberhoods all think they are soldiers so they would give some meaning to their existence and kill each other. This is not indigienous to religion. More so when this notion of jihad is taken out of context of what koran actually teaches.
@niinja2 And... the values of muslims are influenced by what they read in the quran and what they are taught by religious authorities. For some of them, this teaching includes the philosophy that martyrdom is a blessed and desireable activity for which one will be rewarded greatly in the afterlife and celebrated by those left behind. You can claim teachings of this kind are a misinterpretation of the text, but those who teach it would claim the same for you I'm sure.
Your theory is a intuitive theory based on what the media has shown us.
Empirical data has shown that muslim religious education is a negative factor in predicting suicide bombings, most of the suicide bombers were poorly educated in koranic techings. They were not raised by as muslims. Some people do have this warlike notion of Jihad, but its a minority and made up to suit an alternative purpose.
@niinja2 Empirical data has shown that the jihadists are generally well educated, wealthy people who have not been molested by occupying powers. The 9/11 hijackers were all college educated, middle class men (many had PH.D's) who grew up in wealthy families. None of them experienced the molestation of occupying powers that iraq and afghanistan had. Indeed, most of them were saudi arabian.
@niinja2 My conclusion is that Islam is what is inspiring suicidal violence among millions of muslims. You said that extremists have not read the koran. That's not true. They read it from front to back. And they believe it word for word. They're simply doing what the koran is telling them to do.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz how can you be sure of this? how can you be sure that they did read it and that they do folow it word for word. How do you know what the exact word of koran is?
only 7% of muslims believe in a warlike jihad, by probability alone they are probably wrong
as i said, empirical evidence show religious education is a negative factor in suicide bombing, most of the bombers were not raised as muslims.
@niinja2 Yes they are. The 9/11 hijackers grew up in saudi arabia and learned about Islam. The educational system in saudi arabia places emphasis on Islam. Also, even if only 7% of muslims are extremists. That's quite a lot. That 109 million muslims.
scot said and he has evidence to back it up that 70% of muslim terorists are new muslims taht were not raised as muslims or farmiliarized with islam. The rest are farmiliarized very superficially. And for the third time he said that religious education thwarts suicide bombing.
The rest of the 93% of muslims also learned about islam, what makes them wrong and those 7% right?
@niinja2 who's scot? but to answer ur question. Just read up on the biographies of the 9/11 hijackers. Plus, as I mentioned before. Learning all about Islam is a mandatory thing in the saudi arabian educational system.
@niinja2 Most muslims are peaceful because they ignore most of the quran. The violent ones are simply doing what the quran is telling them to do. I'm going to repeat this for the last time. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi arabian. In saudi arabia, learning about islam and the quran is mandatory for all children. They are required to know the quran front to back. Despite that, the 9/11 hijackers still felt violence was justified based on the quran.
how do you know that most of the muslims are not the ones obeying it and that the violent ones are not just retributing for the western attacks against the muslims and calling it gods wll.
again , the fact that they were muslims does not prove they did it because of islam, you have evidence where suicide bombers were NOT raised as muslims and not to mention you ignored 4 times that religious education detteres violence.
yes jihad is the core principal of islam, but most of the muslims will say jihad is inner war against yourself ,what evidence do you have to support your idea of warlike jihad?
@niinja2 "Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their wealth for the price of Paradise, to fight in the way of Allah, to kill and get killed. It is a promise binding on the truth in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an." -Surah 9 At-Tawba verse 111
and in stalinist russia you were all atheists, does that mean you did masacre because you were an atheist?
no it does not
you need to show that this violence is caused dirrectly by koran , not just say they were muslims, because you have bombers that were not raised as muslims, explain that.
religion is a variable in this case, bombing is a constant, how do you describe a constant with a changing variable?
@niinja2 "are you saying that 1.5 billion muslims are wrong?" Well, either you're a muslim and thus implicitly saying 2.1 billion christians are wrong, or you're not and you're also saying those 1.5 billion muslims are wrong. Either way, taking him to task for that is hypocritical on your part.
@niinja2 "only 7% of muslims believe in a warlike jihad, by probability alone they are probably wrong" Heh... you're squandering your credibility with this statement. Whether or not something is true is not generally correlated with how popularly it is believed.
"Whether or not something is true is not generally correlated with how popularly it is believed."
hm , this statement can be true and false. This would mean common knowledge is mostly wrong.
Consensus of opinions holds more value then the opinion of one.
I mean why do you believe 7% of muslims is right compared to 93% who say jihad is not about real war. Unless you have a way to show that those 7% are more credible il go with majority opinion.
@niinja2 I'm not sure what you're argument is here... we should respect the myths of the Quran becuase most people who read it don't decide to commit suicidal attacks on non-believers? My concern isn't so much the proportion of adherents that choose to do such horrendous things, it's whether or not the religion has anything true to say. As far as I can tell, it's just as false as every other religion appears to be in it's most substantive claims.
I hope this retard of a moderator is never allowed to do so again. he almost ruined this whole thing, and certainly ate up all the question time with his irrelevant comments.
Not very impartial. And that's not his only flaw as a debate moderator. Harris was saying that experience doesn't count as solid facts. So he cuts him in, in order to buttress what was essentially a beginner level sophism, an argument from authority : "The guy has lived there for 15 years, therefore he must be right!"
Lame. And no wonder Harris said he would never debate on truthdig anymore.
@stereocil Yep. I was wondering why Sam said that he wouldn't debate on truth dig anymore myself. Now it's self explanatory. This morderator was horrible.
What a beautiful analogy Harris painted about what it would be like to be somebody who didn't believe in witchcraft 500 years ago. He is stunningly briliant at painting those kinds of argumentational pictures on the fly. We should all endeavor to converse in the key of Sam Harris.
I think the moderator made some very good points. The problem appears to have been simply that Harris was discussing religion while Hedges was discussing politics (because Harris draws some fairly absurd political conclusions from his views on religion). Both subjects are interesting and important, but neither of the participants could apparently be bothered to address the arguments the other was making.
Suicide bombing is not inherently worse than other forms of violence. Even the violence of the "modern", the "secular", the "enlightened", "reasonable" people of the West. Whose violence I might add has very different forms and causes.
Sam Harris degrades reality-- which is immensely complex-- to childishly simplistic reasoning, which is not logically sound.
"The Koran says Muslims should kill.
Muslims kill.
Therefore the Koran is the primary source of Muslim violence."
Harris formulates his arguments from the very faulty premise that historical, social, political, economic factors are of secondary importance. WHAT really matters is what the Koran says.
Needless to say this borders with racism because it disregards any of the complex sociological factors that face people all over the world. This line of thought disregards the unique perceptions of Palestinians vs. Afghans, or Saudis vs. Indonesians. All that matters to Harris that they have the same religion.
@brucejuice52 Their are many people all over the world including every city in this country who live in hopeless conditions. The problem is in no way that black and white and you dont see people blowing themselves up who are not muslims. You cant call someone a racist just because they argue that religion plays a huge factor. Harris is not saying round up all muslims as hedges would suggest. If the despair theory were true we would have attacks every single day in this country.
The US has a strikingly high poverty rate and a correspondingly high violent crime rate compared to other industrialized countries. Is religion a cause of violent crime in the US? Give me a break. Religion and violence are both by-products of despair. What Harris is saying is that we should disregard the rich and unique histories and perceptions of the very people he's discussing in exchange for his superior "reasoned" insight. That's extremely narcissistic as well as bordering on racism.
@frogp0ps The people discusses are "races" of people (Indonesians, Palestinians, Nigerians, etc.) But he lumps them together as One Big Muslim family. Following his argument, the unique histories of each are of secondary importance. He even goes so far to say that its futile to understand their cultures by immersing ourselves in them. Just take a poll. Their complex perspectives don't matter. Their everyday lives do not matter. Harris and his enlightened friends are the masters of "reason"
@frogp0ps If you feel uncomfortable with the word "racism" substitute "ethnocentrism". They both have the same meaning for me in this context. What we're talking about is a form of what Edward Said's notion of "neo-Orientalism". Something that should be challenged in all its forms.
@sakdiesel86Suicide bombing is not inherently worse than other forms of violence. Even the violence of the "modern", the "secular", the "enlightened", "reasonable" people of the West. Whose violence, I might add, has very different forms and causes.
Sam Harris degrades reality-- which is immensely complex-- to a childishly simplistic reasoning, which is not logically sound.
"The Koran says Muslims should kill.
Muslims kill.
Therefore the Koran is the primary cause of Muslim violence."
Harris is right: you don't discover the real beliefs of people just by living amongst some of them. In my neighbourhood of a town in England there is a growing muslim population. I see more full burquas & men in long shirts all the time. Members of the local mosque have been caught making suicide bomb belts; all at the mosque say "No one HERE preaches anything but peace!" & the cops say "Ah. Ok. Thanks."
It's not as if they wear badges saying "I'm a murderous nutjob - ask me how"
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein and he meant that literally. Harris believe science to be our savor, but scie
It gives me great pleasure to know that one day soon, if not already, one less incompetent old fuck will be alive on this planet.
WolfgangBrozart 6 days ago
The moderator didn't moderate at all..
isailovic09 1 month ago
In my opinion, they are discussing to very different things...
Chris always says how i IS, while Sam addresses why the current situation is bad, and how it should be instead... And both the moderator and Chris fails to recognize the problems that Sam are addressing, he says that there IS suicide bombing occuring, and the quran holds violent phrases.
I feel sorry for Sam, arguing for Atheism to Christians and Muslims is like teaching math to a monkey.
FrederikHansen123 3 months ago
What's wrong with having an olive garden state?
JetFuelGenius 3 months ago
Wow, moderator. "Why don't you guys just...you know...put the cap on it."
Why the hell were you even there?
Joeofiowa 4 months ago
He said it himself: 'I was a lousy moderator'. Yes, I have taken his words out of context but that doesn't change the fact of the matter.
bovinicide 5 months ago 2
Truthdig got owned.
TehNetherlands 5 months ago
Well, looking at this doofus "moderator", it's easy to see how a "journalist" like
Chris Hedges can still appear on Truthdig.
shaxanth27 5 months ago
@shaxanth27 I apologize for overuse of scare quotes
shaxanth27 5 months ago
I love this moderator, "I remain an agnostic"... I would love to ask him if he then has any religion he would be more inclined to embracing, and why?
Christianity, Islam - They're both as credible as Raelianism.
This agnostic is just an atheist without any balls
shaxanth27 5 months ago
@shaxanth27 I believe Shear indicated earlier in the debate that he is atheist. What he actually said here, in reference to the debaters, was " I remain an agnostic as to their differences".
OGRastamon 5 months ago
@OGRastamon Problem is, he obviously wasn't "agnostic". He was very biased towards Hedges during the debate.
Drgamedood 5 months ago
Happily we do not asses public opinion by having New York times journalist go out and live in the Muslim world and make friends and get a vibe. A single well run opinion poll would be worth a thousand years of you wandering the middle east. Sam Harris
nigelsenchez 5 months ago 3
Am I mistaken or did Hedges just say that fundamentalism (and the context of the debate would make the fundamentalism RELIGIOUS) is secular in nature?
Did he really just say that?
ThieleM 6 months ago
from pew dot org- Full question wording: Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?
TorontoLarrivee 6 months ago
I just don't get the left's hair-trigger hatred of Sam Harris.
hominuslupus 6 months ago 2
@hominuslupus
I'm pretty far to the left and I don't get it either. I think it may be because people of Harris' ilk have done such a great job of making postmodernist platitudes seem silly and/or dangerous. It is kinda like the whole Stephen Jay Gould vs Edmund Wilson and Richard Dawkins dynamic.
pentopia 6 months ago
while I admire both Scheer and Hedges in their work reporting on the fascism and lies in this country and the rest of the world ya gotta admit that Sam OWNS this *debate*...the crazy religious fundamentalist whackos of ANY religion are the fucktards causing ALL of the problems in this world!
oneirishpoet 6 months ago 2
"I mean if you really believe in afterlife, you think it's ok to suicide", Sam forgets the underlying causes hedges describes for considering suicide in the first place, Sam seems to be concerned weak people will engage in desperate extremes under despairing conditions. Finally to have an honest conversation about religion is to recognize hedge's did acknowledge fundamentalism, did not downplay it as sam tried to mock it, but presents the real underlying causes to which sam reluctantly agrees.
architect333 6 months ago
Comment removed
lalaurentide 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@architect333 Americans against gays and abortion aren't poor people living in physical or intellectual despair, but religious peoples. Get over it, religion is bad, always been, reason beats it every step of the way.
lalaurentide 6 months ago 3
'Support suicide bombing in DEFENSE of Islam against non combatants' what a joke, combatants attacking Islam is all they have ever known thanks to American's foreign policy+weapons selling industry. Either way, no different from the American response to aggressively invade and murder the majority of non combatants of entire nation's in defense of "homeland security". Sam's position was weak and hedges clearly showed it, love the constant hate comments at moderator to help illustrate it.
architect333 6 months ago
Yes, Mr moderator the world has changed Since WWII and even Viet Nam. We have more knowledge now. And Viet Nam carpet bombing was wrong also, so equating the two doesn't score you points.
Oh, and weren't you the freaking moderator?
rrpostalagain 6 months ago 4
Religion is as superstitious as witchcraft - exactly and it needs to be sidelined just like witchcraft - well said Sam
Nobullporfavor 6 months ago 3
Chris Hedges is a furious master debator.
HyperShad0w 6 months ago
K.O. Sam Harris wins. Peace Hedges, better luck next time. Too bad your buddy the moderator was just as thick.
Listening to Sam's final monologue, I couldn't help but smile.
SirBastian200 6 months ago 2
well done Sam, just clean your feet and leave those ignoramuses
asimov231 6 months ago 3
Sam is God. I want to give him money.
axekicker78 6 months ago
i dunno whether to like this for sammy's perfect final comment, or dislike it for the effin moderator :S
freiheitsalv 6 months ago
Chris asserts that 'fundamentalism is born out of desperation and despair' - Really? Are you sure Chris? Are the multi-millionaire leaders of Christian fundamentalists or the multi-billionaire Saudi leaders that fund the Islamic fundamentalism only grasping at straws when they step off of their private jets into the desperation of a barren limousine that only has 4 out of the 5 spring waters they clearly requested?
Oh the humanity!
InternalCompass 6 months ago 3
@InternalCompass "multi-millionaire leaders of Christian fundamentalists"
The topic in this section was Muslim fundamentalism. Fail #1.
"multi-billionaire Saudi leaders"
Multi-billionaire Saudis are TARGETS of fundamentalism, not a funding source. Fail #2.
Sorry for the complexity. But, it seems,complexity, or the incapability of Harris' fan boys to grasp it, is at the root of every pro-Harris comment here.
Further, I guarantee, every Harris fan boy posting here is relatively young.
bapyou 6 months ago in playlist CHRIS HEDGES
@bapyou I agree with you that these are very complex issues which ironically seems to have escaped you. But thanks for a good laugh as you not only label me a 'fan-boy', but also 'guarantee' that I and other pro-Harris commenters are 'relatively young'. Aheem [clearing throat], you guarantee do you? I guess I must be a relatively young 42 year old fanboy and I didn't even know it, thanks for enlightening all of us. Unless perhaps your guarantee is worth about as much as your judgement.
InternalCompass 6 months ago
@InternalCompass 42 you say? I've got ten years on you. One day you'll, perhaps, realize what simplistic drivel passing for intellectual investigation Harris peddles.
I was wrong about something: The discussion was about fundamentalism in general, not merely Islamic fundamentalism. Those fallen under the spell of American right-wing fundamentalism are, by and large, the dispossessed lower classes, despite the wealthy footing the bill of its media arm.
Next to Hedges, Harris is a smug boy.
bapyou 6 months ago
@bapyou Harris is a smug boy? He's the smug one? really? OK. Thank you for enlightening us all.
As you assert, anyone younger than 52 years old has not yet matured enough to grasp anything? Thank you for your wisdom! Do you want me to continue? Do we need to ask what old man's dictionary contains the word 'incapability' that doesn't appear in our inferior junior ones?
Do I have many more questions to ask of your obvious wisdom? Well, humbly YES!
Shall we continue?
InternalCompass 6 months ago 3
@bapyou well that's only YOUR opinion, Hedges is bright and has some good points but Sam OWNS this debate, and he's anything but *smug* here, he just flat lays out the truth for all to see...too bad you don't get it (oh, and I've got 10 years on you, which doesn't mean shit cuz being ill-informed can happen at any age, and you certainly have shown that to be true with your ignorant remarks)
oneirishpoet 6 months ago
@bapyou I've been patiently waiting for more of your wisdom, but alas I realize such triviality is beneath someone as old and as wise as you've asserted yourself to be.
I must apologize for my youthful mistake of caring about demonstrable facts and seemingly conclusive truths.
I now realize that you are so far above our limited youthful understandings of language or dictionaries or definitions of words or historical facts, my sincere apologies Sir.
Can you please forgive me?
InternalCompass 5 months ago
@InternalCompass "I must apologize for my youthful mistake of caring about demonstrable facts and seemingly conclusive truths."
You don't care about facts or truth in the least. And quit with the psuedo-intellectual horeshit.
Harris is out of his depth here; Hedges smothers him. Harris's fan boys seemingly can't see the forest for the motherfucking trees: he peddles easily understood, philosophically simplistic drivel. Hedges' work is far more challenging. Your comments prove my point.
bapyou 5 months ago
@bapyou Wow! you are amazing! Let me bow down to you! Wow! I fully expected someone of your stature to insult me with common words easily found in the dictionary but then WOW, once again you step outside the lines, you are so amazing! Wow!
Most youthful morons might try to insult someone with the phrase "intellectual horse shit", but you sir take it to another level and insult with the excrement of whores. Wow, amazing, I'm speechless Sir!
Your phrase "intellectual horeshit" pure gold Sir!
InternalCompass 5 months ago
@bapyou I'm really enjoying my education from someone as wise as you, can we please continue?
InternalCompass 5 months ago
@bapyou Please don't leave us all waiting for more of your Genius, please consider it a public service, a sacrifice from someone of your highly asserted intellectual level trickling down little by little upon the lower youthful and ignorant masses.
On behalf of my fellow under 52 year old morons, we thank you in advance Sir!
InternalCompass 5 months ago
@bapyou I know the deluge of honest facts does not fit into your superior mastery of 'intellectual horeshit',
but please consider those of us so humbly waiting for your continued wisdom and leadership!
InternalCompass 5 months ago
@bapyou
You are just denying well established facts. You are discrediting yourself heavily.
Wrath0fKhan 6 months ago
Wow, the moderator thinks it's okay to lie to try to show Sam Harris is wrong, His characterization of the Pew poll was very misleading. Evidently he hasn't figured out that one's words are now recorded forever. He can't just say that hundreds of people "misunderstood" him.
jmwooldridge60 6 months ago 4
"Holy" Shit Robert Sheer is a fucking ass hole and Hedges runs a close second!
TheFrankFactor 6 months ago
The comments here seem to be very pro-Sam Harris, but the fact is he doesn't defend his position very well. While it's true religion is responsible for many of society's woes (e.g. gay marriage ban), Harris' can't defend his argument that religion is the primary cause of extreme violence in the MIddle East, or really that it's the primary cause of violence in the 21st century (it's obviously not as the two most violent movements, in Russia and Germany, were explicitly secular).
superflat44 6 months ago
@superflat44 Wrong. You strike me as someone who has never read any of Harris' books or articles. He addresses both issues, the first-that Hariris can't defend the proposition of religion as primary cause for violence in the Middle East- as a matter of fact in this very debate (recall the part about the difference OF ideas i.e. Jainism vs. Islam) and the second-that atheism has lead to the greatest secular genocides in history-has been destroyed time and again, not just by Harris but by others.
petermacaluso1 6 months ago
If this debate where a baseball game, it would consist of Sam throwing surgical strikes over home plate - But only during the rare moments when the game is not being interrupted by the senile umpire showcasing his soccer skills by kicking a baseball around the field. While Chris spends the entire game alone in far left field frenetically swinging his bat in the cloud of dust created as be repeatedly beats and lectures the same old poorly constructed straw-men.
InternalCompass 6 months ago 3
@InternalCompass Your comment is pure AWESOME. . . Thanks for the good laugh.
fuckthedumb1 6 months ago
who wants to stuff a gas soaked rag in the moderators mouth? LMAO!!!
bcbk93 6 months ago
Worst moderator EVER.
michaelamurray 6 months ago 5
The so-called "moderator" not only violates the most basic role that a moderator must play in a debate, but when he does interrupt, he reveals himself to be an idiot attacking straw man arguments about Vietnam and Hiroshima. Then the cherry on the top is his bitching about running out of time, when the problem was this moderator running his mouth.
roberttschaefer 6 months ago 4
@3:00 he's not even listening to the response! Automatic disqualification... from the debate that he's not meant to be taking part in.
tags2k 6 months ago 2
Moderator: I remain an agnostic...
What a lie. Most biased moderator ever!
frokenstein 6 months ago 5
Hedges really didn't want to shake Sam's hand. Dick.
neonatalpenguin 6 months ago 3
I can't believe how ridiculously bad the arguments against Harris were in this debate. They were barely arguments against him! Again and again, points were made that had absolutely nothing to do with his position, and every time he tried to make this clear, he was ignored.
SlaughterMeister 6 months ago
@1:35
wow...you sure beat the shit out of that straw man
kswindl 6 months ago 3
Worst moderator ever!
freewillphoenix 8 months ago 4
i wish sam was the president
maikoo25 9 months ago 62
I disagree with Sam about Gay issue. The dislike of gays comes from evolution. People want their children to breed more children. Being Gay, you are less likely to breed, unless you go out of your way to donate sperm or donate your body for a birth from a man that you are not interested in if you are a lesbian. Since you will not have offspring, this is not good for evolution. THerefore in evolution we have disliked gays because they aren't breeding more of the selfish gene.
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
@SeeProfileForDetails //The dislike of gays comes from evolution.//
LOL, uh no. The dislike of gays comes from the bible. Specifically exodus, leviticus, and romans.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
@Drgamedood Please explain why James Watson, an atheist, dislikes gays and would prefer if they were aborted at birth. Many atheists are homophobic and I've struggled to find a reason as to why this is. The reason is just like I told you, moron. James Watson and other atheists that are homophobic do not believe a line from the bible. The bible came from evolution, too - humans created it and were homophobic before the bible existed, otherwise how would they have written the bible, Sherlock.
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
@SeeProfileForDetails Of course not all people are homophobic because of the bible. But Sam is specifically talking about gay rights, such as gay marriage. And most people who protest gay marriage are doing it for religious reasons. Just look up americans protesting gay marriage and they constantly say, with pride, that they oppose gay marriage because it is a sin.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
@Drgamedood You're contradicting what you said yourself. You said the dislike og gays comes from the bible. I proved you wrong. You come up with a new argument completely orthogonal, now claiming that the bible is against gay marriage - which I already am aware of.
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
@SeeProfileForDetails Right. I take back what I said. But most anti-gay fervor in america comes from the bible.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
@Drgamedood but think deeper. Where does the bible come from? from people's thoughts. Some homophobic people wrote the bible because their brains, hormones, and anatomy evolved to be homophobic, as a protection in evolution against non breeding offspring. Since gay people don't generally breed offspring (unless they donate sperm), it is evolutionarily bad to have gay children. Homophobic people, I think, are a product of evolution - and the bible writers were a sample of those homophobics
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
@SeeProfileForDetails But it's just not true. Ancient Greece was very accepting of Homosexuality.
Drgamedood 9 months ago
@Drgamedood I'm not certain which reasons are the most. I have heard many people say it's because homosexuality is disgusting, without mentioning religion. Sadly, feeling something is disgusting is all the reason some people need.
Strangerinasland 6 months ago
@SeeProfileForDetails "Many atheists are homophobic"
Would you like to provide evidence to support that?
Strangerinasland 6 months ago 5
Sam knows reason and intelligence trump religious ignorance. Unfortunately, ignorance and stupidity take generations to debunk.
It took the catholic church 385 years to issue an apology to Galileo for his inquisition and permanent exile for an observation that contradicted holy scripture. His crime: the earth is not the center of the universe.
northoforacle 11 months ago 2
Harris ftw!
KJDail 11 months ago
"Let me give you a sense of what it's like to be me in this conversation..."
My favorite way to begin any rebuttal now.
metaserve 11 months ago
Oh that witchcraft straw-man was bad... missed the point. He's comparing Witchcraft to American Policy and other modern sources of despair that muslims are facing (which is the Hedges' argument he's trying to dissemble). He totally misses the point.
johnpotter26 11 months ago
what muslims believe about 72 virgins is just like witchcraft. What is sensible about believing you get 72 housemaids or 72 sluts in heaven? This is even MORE ridiculous than witchcraft, and it is extremely sexist. What do the women get, 72 male porn stars in heaven with big cockers? Or do the women just go to heaven to become prostitutes for the men that go to heaven? This is less rational than witchcraft? no, it is just as irrational as witchcraft and we need to speak against it, NOW.
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
@johnpotter26 he's comparing witchcraft to religion, you stupid fuck.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
@Drgamedood lol read a book dumbass. Start with one on critical thought
johnpotter26 10 months ago
@johnpotter26 I'm hell of a lot smarter than you. I refuted all of your shitty comments regarding this debate. You even spouted your garbage on the four horsemen documentary. get the fuck outta here.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
@Drgamedood lol you really think you did. Dunning-Kruger effect my friend
I know i am physically, intellectually, and sexually more powerful than you. If you would like to go on a date sometime we can further embarrass you <3
johnpotter26 10 months ago
@johnpotter26 trololololol. suck my dick.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
So why did Joseph Stacks crash his plane into the IRS building? He wasn't a despairing Jain or despairing Muslim. He was simply despaired. We need to recognize that American policy creates despairing people who feel their only outlet is to bomb themselves and kill their oppressors. Islam encourages this but they would not go bombing people if it weren't for the despair placed upon them.
THANK YOU HEDGES! We need to REENFRANCHISE THESE PEOPLE!! Thats exactly right.
johnpotter26 11 months ago
@johnpotter26 American policy creates 72 virgin myths? People become Jainists because of USA policy? people become buddhists because of USA policy? If muslims don't want violence toward their countries, why fly planes into buildings? Do Jainists have that problem? Why not just write books, about america, using your words? Why aren't their muslim authors criticizing america? that would not cause a war, flying planes into buildings would cause war!
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
So why did Joseph Stacks crash his plane into the IRS building? He wasn't a despairing Jain or despairing Muslim. He was simply despaired. We need to recognize that American policy creates despairing people who feel their only outlet is to bomb themselves and kill their oppressors. Islam encourages this but they would not go bombing people if it weren't for the despair placed upon them
johnpotter26 11 months ago
I absolutely loved Sam's analogy to witchcraft - that was brilliant. I was afraid about Godwin's law when he invoked Nazism but he used that masterfully as well.
rahdisas 11 months ago
@rahdisas what about godwins law when people like Hedges call america fascist, along with Aaron Russo and his freedom to fascism movie... that's also saying america is hitler too.
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
It seems to me that both the moderator and Chris seem to say that religion isn't the primary cause of all the grief caused by religion. Sam seems to attack this by saying that religion is. This is definitely plausible but it is harder to argue than simply asserting that the veracity of beliefs matters.
If indeed Muslims are doing suicide bombings because of reasons other than religion - it is important to remove this false mask (which the people themselves profess) and expose the true reasons
rahdisas 11 months ago
To all the commentors who wonder why Sam Harris isn't going apeshit on the moderator is because (unlike the majority of people posting here) he KNOWS who Robert Scheer is! And the idea that Scheer is "siding" with Hedges is bullshit! He's pointedly directing the conversation because Hedges has a minority opinion from the audience.
HNK222 11 months ago
"That moderator", who is pissing off the furrowed-brow set, is Robert Scheer, one of the strongest political commentators & agreesive social critics of the past 50 years. He's infuriated every leader from LBJ to Reagan to Dubya. To the morons who think he should be taking an "Alex Trebek" role in this, imagine if the debate was between Chris Hedges & Glenn Greenwald and Sam Harris was the moderator. Would you wany Sam to stay out of the conersation? No. And neither does Scheer! Christ, READ UP!!
HNK222 11 months ago
@HNK222
100% agreement here.
RipTheJackR 11 months ago
@HNK222
I think you hit the nail on its head. The moderator here if I understand you correctly isa known social commentator. Clearly he cannot shake his role when moderating and I must say it didn't seem that he tried that hard either. And I must add that thinking that anecdotal evidence is better evidence than polls is plain silly and undermines his already shaky arguments.
omegavalerius 11 months ago
I love Sam and admire his patience, but I would love to see Hitchens in this setting. He would have gone ape S#%& on that "moderator"
HEFANDHOG99 11 months ago
It's amazing that these two old white men feel such inclincation to protect Islam. It's like here in Canada, where we've had the merits of multicultralism drilled in our head since age 5, that white people are so afraid to say that some cultures suck -- or even are afraid to *recognise* that some cultures are simply bad for society!
dweeper1020 11 months ago
Sam gets it right. That is exactly why people get angry.
beksinski 11 months ago
I applaud Sam trying to have an honest and open conversation...extremely difficult to make happen...keep up the good work Sam...oh and "Truthdig"...not sure where you're coming from with this "Moderator"...I for one am not convinced he's interested in "digging the truth"...
RayThaw 11 months ago 2
I applaud Sam trying to have an honest and open conversation...extremely difficult to make happen...keep up the good work Sam...
RayThaw 11 months ago 2
it not for moderates fundamentalist wouldn't exist, and not because the idea wouldn't be there, but because they would be considered a CULT.
No moderates = No religion = Only Fundamentalist Death Cults
HolyFictionOrg 11 months ago
Damn that fundamentalist witchcraft.
Embrigh 11 months ago
@lordEnder88 - I completly agree about the moderator. He obviously wanted to be part of the discussion which is a 'no go' for a chairman but even then added nothing to the discussion & hampered it at every interesting angle that developed. This debate would have been of the best in my opinion as, even though i generally agree with Harris, Hedges was doing a good job at challenging Harris views which not many people can do
Such a shame the mod stopped all interesting comments in their tracks
MyDutchOven 11 months ago
@MyDutchOven - Yeah I really do agree with what you're saying there. I thought Hedges had Sam on the ropes a few times throughout. The only other time I've ever seen Sam even come close to beaten on almost any point was when Azlan bullied him into submission with his 'YOU WEREN'T THERE SO YOU DON'T KNOW' tirade. Couldn't challenge his arguments, just knew that yelling was not something Harris was comfortable with.
Skindoggiedog 11 months ago
@Skindoggiedog - ha, sounds like a must see! I'll have to look through your favourates to find it, if its there?
MyDutchOven 11 months ago
@MyDutchOven - No, never favorited it. It's not quite as dramatic as I stated, that was my overall impression. I think it's in 'suggestions' there.
Skindoggiedog 11 months ago
Worst moderator ever...
LordEnder88 11 months ago
Despair is part of the human condition: Because of human hierarchy, because life is a huge risk, because status and security are sought by all and yet not obtainable by all. It' true that it does matter what you believe and do during your despair. (and it matters to those in power over others how they can manipulate your despair to achieve their ends, and maintain their power.) Both people have a point- and it is that humans are animals that compete with force and with ideology. Body and mind.
isisdron 11 months ago
This "moderator" was biased and a lousy choice. He obviously set out to make a point and his comments ended any chance of a true debate. What an arrogant ass.
zcodez 11 months ago
suicide bombing should be impossible
but carpet bombing should not?
niinja2 1 year ago
@niinja2 I think his point here was that there should not exist a philosophy that allows a person to become willing and eager to end their lives in such a way as to kill a bunch of other people at the same time.
Arkalius80 11 months ago
@Arkalius80
well yeah , but this is more of a problem of your values and idols, if your idol is a mafia caracter your identity will be fulfilled by killing other people.Afro americans in poor neiberhoods all think they are soldiers so they would give some meaning to their existence and kill each other. This is not indigienous to religion. More so when this notion of jihad is taken out of context of what koran actually teaches.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 And... the values of muslims are influenced by what they read in the quran and what they are taught by religious authorities. For some of them, this teaching includes the philosophy that martyrdom is a blessed and desireable activity for which one will be rewarded greatly in the afterlife and celebrated by those left behind. You can claim teachings of this kind are a misinterpretation of the text, but those who teach it would claim the same for you I'm sure.
Arkalius80 11 months ago
@Arkalius80
Your theory is a intuitive theory based on what the media has shown us.
Empirical data has shown that muslim religious education is a negative factor in predicting suicide bombings, most of the suicide bombers were poorly educated in koranic techings. They were not raised by as muslims. Some people do have this warlike notion of Jihad, but its a minority and made up to suit an alternative purpose.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 Empirical data has shown that the jihadists are generally well educated, wealthy people who have not been molested by occupying powers. The 9/11 hijackers were all college educated, middle class men (many had PH.D's) who grew up in wealthy families. None of them experienced the molestation of occupying powers that iraq and afghanistan had. Indeed, most of them were saudi arabian.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
ok so what is your conclusion, i dont think that what both of us have said contradicts each other.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 My conclusion is that Islam is what is inspiring suicidal violence among millions of muslims. You said that extremists have not read the koran. That's not true. They read it from front to back. And they believe it word for word. They're simply doing what the koran is telling them to do.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz how can you be sure of this? how can you be sure that they did read it and that they do folow it word for word. How do you know what the exact word of koran is?
only 7% of muslims believe in a warlike jihad, by probability alone they are probably wrong
as i said, empirical evidence show religious education is a negative factor in suicide bombing, most of the bombers were not raised as muslims.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 Yes they are. The 9/11 hijackers grew up in saudi arabia and learned about Islam. The educational system in saudi arabia places emphasis on Islam. Also, even if only 7% of muslims are extremists. That's quite a lot. That 109 million muslims.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
Comment removed
niinja2 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
i need some proof of this
scot said and he has evidence to back it up that 70% of muslim terorists are new muslims taht were not raised as muslims or farmiliarized with islam. The rest are farmiliarized very superficially. And for the third time he said that religious education thwarts suicide bombing.
The rest of the 93% of muslims also learned about islam, what makes them wrong and those 7% right?
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 who's scot? but to answer ur question. Just read up on the biographies of the 9/11 hijackers. Plus, as I mentioned before. Learning all about Islam is a mandatory thing in the saudi arabian educational system.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
look if i meet a muslim that upholds his faith im more confident that this person will be a person of peace not war.
are you saying that 1.5 billion muslims are wrong?
for islam to be responsible you need to show a dirrect link between their religious education and attacks, not only that they were muslims.
see scott atran for suicide bombings, he is an antropologist and a reasearcher.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 Most muslims are peaceful because they ignore most of the quran. The violent ones are simply doing what the quran is telling them to do. I'm going to repeat this for the last time. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi arabian. In saudi arabia, learning about islam and the quran is mandatory for all children. They are required to know the quran front to back. Despite that, the 9/11 hijackers still felt violence was justified based on the quran.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
how do you know that most of the muslims are not the ones obeying it and that the violent ones are not just retributing for the western attacks against the muslims and calling it gods wll.
again , the fact that they were muslims does not prove they did it because of islam, you have evidence where suicide bombers were NOT raised as muslims and not to mention you ignored 4 times that religious education detteres violence.
Again how do you know they did not twist koran?
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 Jihad is the core principal of Islam. Libtards like yourself have to get over that fact.
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
yes jihad is the core principal of islam, but most of the muslims will say jihad is inner war against yourself ,what evidence do you have to support your idea of warlike jihad?
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 "Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their wealth for the price of Paradise, to fight in the way of Allah, to kill and get killed. It is a promise binding on the truth in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an." -Surah 9 At-Tawba verse 111
ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
lacking context, to kill for what reason?
niinja2 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz YA HYA CHOUHADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
lefredvoncarstein 11 months ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz
and in stalinist russia you were all atheists, does that mean you did masacre because you were an atheist?
no it does not
you need to show that this violence is caused dirrectly by koran , not just say they were muslims, because you have bombers that were not raised as muslims, explain that.
religion is a variable in this case, bombing is a constant, how do you describe a constant with a changing variable?
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 "are you saying that 1.5 billion muslims are wrong?" Well, either you're a muslim and thus implicitly saying 2.1 billion christians are wrong, or you're not and you're also saying those 1.5 billion muslims are wrong. Either way, taking him to task for that is hypocritical on your part.
Arkalius80 11 months ago
@niinja2 "only 7% of muslims believe in a warlike jihad, by probability alone they are probably wrong" Heh... you're squandering your credibility with this statement. Whether or not something is true is not generally correlated with how popularly it is believed.
Arkalius80 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Arkalius80
"Whether or not something is true is not generally correlated with how popularly it is believed."
hm , this statement can be true and false. This would mean common knowledge is mostly wrong.
Consensus of opinions holds more value then the opinion of one.
I mean why do you believe 7% of muslims is right compared to 93% who say jihad is not about real war. Unless you have a way to show that those 7% are more credible il go with majority opinion.
niinja2 11 months ago
@niinja2 I'm not sure what you're argument is here... we should respect the myths of the Quran becuase most people who read it don't decide to commit suicidal attacks on non-believers? My concern isn't so much the proportion of adherents that choose to do such horrendous things, it's whether or not the religion has anything true to say. As far as I can tell, it's just as false as every other religion appears to be in it's most substantive claims.
Arkalius80 11 months ago
05.40 -09.10 by Sam was better that everything Hedges and the shitty moderator said during the entire debate.
lucasisking 1 year ago
this moderator is fucking crazy. he talked more than hedges did. WTF?
skaloon 1 year ago
I hope this retard of a moderator is never allowed to do so again. he almost ruined this whole thing, and certainly ate up all the question time with his irrelevant comments.
IamTHEDeadFrog 1 year ago
Sam Harris: Islam is a sorce of conflict. Here is my evidence.
the slow child in the middle: wrong.
Sam Harris: ,but heres the eviden...
(frustrated) slow child: WRONG WRONG WRONG! I'm telling Mom!
AnotherMasterMind 1 year ago 91
@AnotherMasterMind
Not very impartial. And that's not his only flaw as a debate moderator. Harris was saying that experience doesn't count as solid facts. So he cuts him in, in order to buttress what was essentially a beginner level sophism, an argument from authority : "The guy has lived there for 15 years, therefore he must be right!"
Lame. And no wonder Harris said he would never debate on truthdig anymore.
stereocil 6 months ago 48
@stereocil Yep. I was wondering why Sam said that he wouldn't debate on truth dig anymore myself. Now it's self explanatory. This morderator was horrible.
Strike2k2 5 months ago 2
Ten minutes after Sam Harris left the debate stage , Hedges made a point
eahazell 1 year ago
well at least he realized he was a shit moderator
eahazell 1 year ago 68
Harris is the KING of analogies.
dnallred 1 year ago 3
@dnallred .......agreed and strangely..... very effective.
AutoBahnForever 1 year ago
Sam should of said at his closing is, "But what a shame we couldn't have that discussion today."
Bearsir 1 year ago
Harris is brilliant here, in his witchcraft analogy. Brilliant.
AtheistdotEDU 1 year ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Harris is clearly a slime bag weasel.
A good "liberal" atheist who makes other knob liberals feel all warm and fuzzy about MODERN IMPERIALISM.
matako07 1 year ago
@matako07 dude of course iraq was a problem with and without the US... along with other parts of the middle east.
the problem is even is there was no imperialism we would still be having crazy islamic violence, just look at western europe....
the foundational problem is religion, even for israel too, the lukid party is basically crazy zionist jews who think god is a real estate agent...
13stevejohnson 1 year ago
@matako07 dude of course iraq was a problem with and without the US... along with other parts of the middle east.
the problem is even if there was no imperialism we would still be having crazy islamic violence, just look at western europe....
the foundational problem is religion, even for israel too, the lukid party is basically crazy zionist jews who think god is a real estate agent...
13stevejohnson 1 year ago
Fundamentalism is not born out of despair it is born out of the FUNDAMENTALS of the religion.
DXP6 1 year ago 4
@DXP6 it's born out of blind ignorance
eahazell 1 year ago
The bleeding heart liberal moderator and Hedges are enough to make me want to become a Conservative! Pathetic!
12ut5 1 year ago
What a beautiful analogy Harris painted about what it would be like to be somebody who didn't believe in witchcraft 500 years ago. He is stunningly briliant at painting those kinds of argumentational pictures on the fly. We should all endeavor to converse in the key of Sam Harris.
mrw21 1 year ago 3
I think the moderator made some very good points. The problem appears to have been simply that Harris was discussing religion while Hedges was discussing politics (because Harris draws some fairly absurd political conclusions from his views on religion). Both subjects are interesting and important, but neither of the participants could apparently be bothered to address the arguments the other was making.
tky011 1 year ago
@tky011 The thing is that Harris agreed the whole time that politics is a factor, and Hedges takes on faith that religious beliefs are unimportant.
undertehlaw 1 year ago 2
During Sam's final analogy I could almost hear the MortalKombat voicing yelling, "Finish Them!!" . . . That was a sweet fatality.
farcrats 1 year ago 6
Suicide bombing is not inherently worse than other forms of violence. Even the violence of the "modern", the "secular", the "enlightened", "reasonable" people of the West. Whose violence I might add has very different forms and causes.
Sam Harris degrades reality-- which is immensely complex-- to childishly simplistic reasoning, which is not logically sound.
"The Koran says Muslims should kill.
Muslims kill.
Therefore the Koran is the primary source of Muslim violence."
brucejuice52 1 year ago
Harris formulates his arguments from the very faulty premise that historical, social, political, economic factors are of secondary importance. WHAT really matters is what the Koran says.
Needless to say this borders with racism because it disregards any of the complex sociological factors that face people all over the world. This line of thought disregards the unique perceptions of Palestinians vs. Afghans, or Saudis vs. Indonesians. All that matters to Harris that they have the same religion.
brucejuice52 1 year ago
@brucejuice52 Their are many people all over the world including every city in this country who live in hopeless conditions. The problem is in no way that black and white and you dont see people blowing themselves up who are not muslims. You cant call someone a racist just because they argue that religion plays a huge factor. Harris is not saying round up all muslims as hedges would suggest. If the despair theory were true we would have attacks every single day in this country.
sakdiesel86 1 year ago
The US has a strikingly high poverty rate and a correspondingly high violent crime rate compared to other industrialized countries. Is religion a cause of violent crime in the US? Give me a break. Religion and violence are both by-products of despair. What Harris is saying is that we should disregard the rich and unique histories and perceptions of the very people he's discussing in exchange for his superior "reasoned" insight. That's extremely narcissistic as well as bordering on racism.
brucejuice52 1 year ago
@brucejuice52
racism? please elaborate.
frogp0ps 1 year ago
@frogp0ps The people discusses are "races" of people (Indonesians, Palestinians, Nigerians, etc.) But he lumps them together as One Big Muslim family. Following his argument, the unique histories of each are of secondary importance. He even goes so far to say that its futile to understand their cultures by immersing ourselves in them. Just take a poll. Their complex perspectives don't matter. Their everyday lives do not matter. Harris and his enlightened friends are the masters of "reason"
brucejuice52 1 year ago
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brucejuice52 1 year ago
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@frogp0ps If you feel uncomfortable with the word "racism" substitute "ethnocentrism". They both have the same meaning for me in this context. What we're talking about is a form of what Edward Said's notion of "neo-Orientalism". Something that should be challenged in all its forms.
brucejuice52 1 year ago
@frogp0ps If you feel uncomfortable with "racism", substitute "ethnocentrism". They have the same meaning for me in this context.
It's basically a form of Edward Said's Orientalism (or neo-Orientalism). Something that ought to be challenged in all its forms.
brucejuice52 1 year ago
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brucejuice52 1 year ago
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@sakdiesel86Suicide bombing is not inherently worse than other forms of violence. Even the violence of the "modern", the "secular", the "enlightened", "reasonable" people of the West. Whose violence, I might add, has very different forms and causes.
Sam Harris degrades reality-- which is immensely complex-- to a childishly simplistic reasoning, which is not logically sound.
"The Koran says Muslims should kill.
Muslims kill.
Therefore the Koran is the primary cause of Muslim violence."
brucejuice52 1 year ago
"Theories" are black and white. Harris proposes a "theory' that the Koran is the primary cause of Muslim violence.
Instead, what should be done, is an analysis of the individual causes of violence in every Muslim country. No theories involved.
For example, Palestinian suicide bombing is a reaction to Israeli occupation and colonization.
Shia suicide bombing in Iraq is a consequence of American aggression.
Al Qaeda'a main goal is to get the US out of the Middle East, not to destroy secularism
brucejuice52 1 year ago
Harris is right: you don't discover the real beliefs of people just by living amongst some of them. In my neighbourhood of a town in England there is a growing muslim population. I see more full burquas & men in long shirts all the time. Members of the local mosque have been caught making suicide bomb belts; all at the mosque say "No one HERE preaches anything but peace!" & the cops say "Ah. Ok. Thanks."
It's not as if they wear badges saying "I'm a murderous nutjob - ask me how"
queenastilon 1 year ago
Sam Harris 100, Hedges and the loquacious moderator 0.
jds127b123 1 year ago
Hearing Hedges,one would think that the debate is about American foreign policy and the Iraq War.
javyi18 1 year ago
Sam Harris is one of the brightest minds on the planet and I can only aspire to be so verbos in my debates with people as I go throught this life.
rehetbutler 1 year ago
@rehetbutler agree with you about Harris...but you might want to look up the meaning of verbos.
jds127b123 1 year ago
sam harris, smart smart smart smart smart. referee : dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
sprflyenya 1 year ago
This entire debate has been ruined by the moderator.
WTF!!!
There are a couple of points Sam Harris didn't get a chance to speak to because this IDIOT moderator wanted to debate Sam.
Please whoever is responsible for choosing him NEVER use him again.
He just mentioned people will say he is a lousy moderator.
He is absolutely right.
He FUCKING SUCKS!!!!
Quellers 1 year ago
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein and he meant that literally. Harris believe science to be our savor, but scie