I got no idea how anyone could vote this up, Gnome 3 is a disaster and further proof how Microsoft achieved complete control over Gnome via the Novell deal.
Gnome 3 is an "abomination" for any one with computer knowledge but the general public like cutesy crap. The music in the vid fits the display of how babyish it is. It looks good for a touch screen or table pc but keep that cutesy shit off my desktop.
@ProManUnitedFan I haven't used unity, but it looks terrible from what I've seen on youtube.
Gnome 3, I have used on a virtual machine and immediately switched to KDE and then to XFCE. The moment SuSE Linux Enterprise "updates" to gnome 3, I am switching away from SUSE linux too to opensuse.
I guess the only distros which will survive in future are the ones with XFCE, LXDE and maybe KDE options.
I've tried LXDE and XFCE - they are somewhat ok, but their terminal sucks. If you change fonts in one, they all inherit it. Also, they don't like reboot - keep forgetting settings. Thus, I'm on fallback mode in G3, and GNOME 3 still sucks! It's awful! Bring back Gnome 2 you tablet heads!
It's so completely different from gnome 2, that it should be started as a completely separate project. Gnome 2 was almost perfect and this... thing is just awful. Why improve something when it ain't broke?
But the problem is Gnome 2 WILL eventually die unless somebody forks it successfully (and currently there is no viable alternative for it among desktops), whereas if Gnome 3 was started as a separate desktop project I believe everybody would be happy. Gnome 2 is for people like me who don't need those new features. With Gnome 3 they are forced upon them. Just give people choice and they'll be happy.
If you have to learn how to, learn how learn, how to use a DE - then its a bad DE. Gnome 3 is is for the elite only. Since I'm just a pleeb, I'll just use a DE that helps me get my work done. Hello KDE and Xfce, remember me... I'm back because Gnome 3 threw me out, can I crash on your couch?
i *want* to use linux & mix of simple tools instead of one big IDE. but what MS did is integrate useful features in one program..the edit/debug/intellisense tools all tightly integrated and working well. I like virtual desktops for multiplying the power of simple tools but an IDE has it's own internal navigation. e.g. there's a handy view called 'code definition' , a window that just shows defs as you move the cursor around in the main view.
@BoraxMan25 >>"Well, thats the day I lose interest in computing. "
-- when one grew up on the Amiga (see info PM) you see mainstream MS computing knowing there's something terribly wrong :) Linux and the move from Intel to ARM both fix this, they certainly keep things fresh. for me using linux at home has a nostalgic feel in that reminds me of the non-microsoft amiga days, even if linux & amiga are themselves very different. But I hate to have to admit that MS dev tools are the best :(
>> " I open it up in e-mail, switch the window to image editing mode, edit, switch the window to the e-mail app and send. One document, one GUI window."
-- I haven't used them much but I gather this is the way google are trying to take us with web-based apps. i've been sent a spreadsheet by someone for me to fill some data in and it gets updated in realtime by multiple people :)
the 'one doc, one GUI window' = the web browser. of course the web is all about data pointing elsewhere
>>"But persistant storage, quick and accessible by the CPU is something novel. "
-- again i think the phones probably have this,
SSD's are probably a step in this directions - OS's which have save/restore of state would add h/w support for faster boot time.
hard drives: you're always going to have a trade of between size & speed. programmers (and even users, when they make choices) are always going to have to deal with managing / prioritizing speed/size
new data starts in apps. So thats why it's app centric. a pioneering App invents a data format, from then on it's known as 'photoshop layers' or whatever. then other apps may read the same data. Without a primary App to create or view, a data standard cannot be defined.other apps may only need 'read-only' products of that data: e.g. 3d animation renders out images, read by other programs that don't need to know the whole 3d file format & rendering pipelin
services=cross app functions applicable to a text selection, possibly more?
ditto NeXT/MacOSX dock supports drag/drop of file types. and again to re-iterate, the Desktop makes things data centric. Just get into the habit of keeping your current files created ON the desktop - and move 'old' work out into folders once they're no longer 'current'. win has desktop button to recall this file overview open data in whatever app you want.
@BoraxMan25 - ok ok, volatile/non volatile... virtual memory... ram drive... can't you see we have every permeation of memory speed/size/persistance?
even if you have non-volatile ram, you still want large hard-drive capacity surely (or you rely on the Cloud to do that for you, which is bigger but slower than hard-drive). you won't have everything in RAM ally the time!! EVER!!!! only an illusion through caching. EXISTING SOFTWARE DOES THIS
@BoraxMan25>> "Instead, now we have a situation where removing maximise and minimise buttons is now considered innovation."
- Streamlining by removing un-necassery buttons does not preclude other forms of innovation!!!! What % of the worlds productive capability is going on gnome 3? there are SEVEN BILLION people on the earth. every software corner can get explored, really. including every permutation of minimize/close windows :)
>>"You can then open a window for the document, and the GUI provides controls allowing you to change the window to whatever application is capable of doing something with it"
- You can do this now. you just need to change the app, not the OS. Add a right click function or menu to your app, "Open WIth...". .. and consult OS's MIME types/registered programs for file types. No offense but it sounds like you are not very good at figuring out ways of doing things
@BoraxMan25 - local apps will always be faster sure. Cloud is convenience: i'm finding dropbox is easier than setting up home networking & allows me to telework with some colleagues. haven't even started using github yet, that looks great again. But I'd prefer not to get lazy and keep things local..
>>"the same computing paradigm from weak desktop PC's from the 80's"
no we aren't. artists use Z-Brush which wasn't possible in 1980s. casual users use computers to create and consume videos to an extent not possible in 1980's. coders have sophisticated IDE's with program navigation not possible in the 1980's. most serious programs are fullscreen with some internal windowing.
... Just take your favorite app, and add a right click menu drag/drop support.
they are changing the paradigm now, with iOS, mac OSX lion/win8 both making moves to make desktop more like mobile. And linux is trying too. And Google is pushing things in a different direction with cloud hosting.
No offense but you have the wrong end of the stick.
Software is very cheap to experiment (compared to other fields), all the ideas get rapidly tried & explored especially by open source. You really aren't describing anything new, or that you can't add as simple tweak
you have many protocols for sharing data, all you want to do is get more people to agree, i.e. different apps using same protocols for similar data? It can be achieved by monopoly/dictatorship i.e. Autodesk now owns all the major 3D packages so they all have crosswalk, but I prefer variety and competition. COnseus for something this complex is truly impossibly. (thanks to Creativity & Imagination of a world of devs with diffent ideas)
@BoraxMan25 - i think it really is trivial. the workaround is, apps get built up. Photoshop does everything you could to an image, + user plugins. other apps can read images in. i've seen 3d tools which can control external views with their cameras.Major apps have SDK's getting around the data-sharing issue. Files get really complex e.g. 3d animation. simple files like anim/images are sorted already.
yes, iOS experience is effectively like non-volatile. you have to go to a separate screen to close an app, state is preserved between sessions by default - part of apples' UI minimalist/streamlining.
but, it is more App centric than desktop ... although most apps are connected allowing you to share by email/web. Web is already collaborative. Web, Mobile were both individually bigger revolutions than "autosave"/data sharing, and combined
>>"So when computers have non volatile RAM, we are going to do nothing new with it?"
[1] I can't see non volatile being much different from caching to hard drive
[2] I can\t see cache heiracheis going away, even if you had non-volatlite you would still have a trade off between small/fast and large/slow ram, so I don't' believe your entire storage would work like that - there would be user or s/w decisions as to how some non-volatile was used.
. of course if you just kept the finder/exporer/file browser window open, you'd have the files' icon for drag easily at hand, you wouldn't need a new icon. Working with current files in the Desktop folder also works well on many guis. (only recently started doing this myself) Especially with multiple virtual desktops where instead of "Hide All' you can just go to a fresh desktop for a new task when you run out of screen space, and easily jump back to the previous state.
>>"We kind of have that now, with copy and paste, but its clunky."
there's file drag/drop, i don't know if there's a way to initiate a 'file drag' from an open view but perhaps this could be integrated into the WindowManager: i.e. an icon on the Titlebar that represents the window's *File* as a drag-drop *source*. When doing lazy UI I used file-drag drop for adding textures in world editors to save me time coding texture browsers :) (i.e. reuse functionality existing in FileMgr)
"MY idea, is that you don't have to specifically code for a GUI, or command line interface to be aware of what the program is doing."
- My experience suggests data structures (File Formats) are everything.
saving/opening files is quick enough for moving between apps, h.d. is faster than user attention switch.
more: some linux WM's use 'Focus Follows Mouse' - this gives more seamless user experience for switching. Tiled WM's can remove titlebars making individual progs seem 'closer'.
@BoraxMan25 ... but the reason my idea isn't already common: Virtual Desktops already do enough?. START: double click the folder containing what you want. double click the file you want. edit it. go back to the folder - it's still a WINDOW on the same screen.. right click, 'open with.. ' to do something else with it. To Switch major task, move to new desktop. "Desktop" directory is a universal 'important' folder for most common items. & You can prioritize 'sticky windows'. its great! [more]
@BoraxMan25 ... this is why I want to integrate file-mgr into window-mgr. You can manually group with virtual desktops. My simple idea is more assist, links between File Mgr windows & views on their files.. e.g. when you pick a Directory window, thumbnails of open views on it's data glide into view. Similarly, select an app window, and the file manager that contains it's file also glides into view.
This is an easy, non-invasive 'retrofit' that can slot into the linux ecosystem right now...
>>"This also means, that you could be editing an image in one program, or editing text, and another program could access the same data, "
- many programs have a button to open the File Manager to reveal the file being edited by one view.(e.g. "show in finder" in Xcode)-you're 1 click + menu from opening data in another program. Thumbnails for data, and use a VIRTUAL DESKTOP MANAGER to group both file-managers & specific app views in task related spaces :) try it, it works well!!
Shared libraries between application programs already exist.
>>" such as spell check, or "send via e-mail" on it or save to file. "
iOS does this by integrating such common services, providing API's for web services like email. Its pretty good. so it's just down to the app designer (app = focussed manipulator for one datatype) to put convenient UI in.
>>"which will lend itself towards blurring between documents in memory and those on disk."
- of course you also have RAM caching for physical disk drives, and to bring up another Amiga feature there was also literally the 'RAM drive',an area of memory accessed through file system interface. add 'auto-save' (or stick with save = commit,load=undo paradigm) and you're there. Your folder view on a RAM drive IS your method of picking a piece of in-memory data to operate on
the future is ever deepening caching hierarchies. small amounts of fast /close memory, large amounts of slower, more remote slow memory. Caching has been extended to the web/cloud (hard drives kept remotely, server based applications), allowing you to view & modify your data from interfaces on multiple devices, including Phones .. which are capable of replacing computers for many users. just waiting for "eye-phones" for generalized big screen..
Complex 'documents' need version control, that also helps with collaboration. So the 'commit' phase between your current version and whats on disk is just one of a generalized set of commits.
In software dev, people sometimes have multiple versions of the same data open :) . Also regarding data in memory vs data on disk, there is compression to consider. Compression takes time/energy, and user foreknowledge of when to compress/expand ensure the right things are being 'archived'.
I really don't think you're describing anything new.
If you want applications to share data, there is nothing in the OS stopping you. It is simply a case of getting 2 applications to agree on a protocol or data format or interface. Of course there are also many choices for the interface(fragmentation)... but this is unavoidable - consensus at such a scale is truly impossible. You can go ahead now & move your favorite data to your favorite interface.
>>"which will lend itself towards blurring between documents in memory and those on disk. "
How is that any different to any caching scheme - or laptops which save before powering down? Similarly there is version control, which generalizes the concept of "commit"/"undo" to arbitrary levels.
The "documents" i deal with are already distributed between many files. As are entities on the web.
have you looked at iOS at all? - it seems to do this 'save on quit/resume' routinely.
amiga had a ton of great ideas despite being a 'hobbyist machine' that primarily satisfied the sorts of people who today code GUIs as you see in this video . Note that today we have OSX Lion claiming mixture of fullscreen & desktop as a 'new feature' whereas amiga OS had a 'hack' to achieve it smoothly on mid 1980's hardware (a side effect of gaming-oriented Copper). Amiga's 'ahead-of-its-time' multitasking+gui created env to pioneer Datatypes?
@BoraxMan25 - just to re-iterate doc simplicity/complexity & maybe why OLE didn't become ubiquitous.
if as simple as text, you can do already( text box) & yes you can link them to shared resources.
When as complex as '3D animation', it's too hard to build into the OS.
OS's do evolve to absorb features from more complex packages. e.g. they started with text, then 'learned' how to deal with images, even video, but other progs drive progress. C lets apps take on >OS-level complexity.
@BoraxMan25 - intel have interesting r&d experiments along the lines of cell, hardware messaging between process, again a completely different memory model.
and personally i'm a big fan of functional languages over 'object orientation's principle, these are catching on. but if you must do objects,next/apples Objective-C does it better than the more common c++, but its barely supported outside of mac/ios.
everything is in continuous flux ... keeps it interesting :)
>>"It just means you have a kind of all encompassing binary API, and shared memory to store data in. "
hell, recently we shifted to multicore cpus in mainstream, and the standard memory model doesn't even suit that. sony showed a better path with CELL but it's too unusual to have caught on (language to exploit it with ease doesn't exist) now GPGPU tries to solve similar problems, but again isn't quite right (can't handle same program complexity as gpgpu).
when data gets complex, having discrete visualizers for different stages is helpful.
plus, look into google docs, web based apps.. is what you describe is already possible in a multi-user context ? ... since web pages can embed views on external data, and embed editors for that data. maybe OLE failed because it was too fine grain
plenty of things become nearly standard but they're not quite right, so people keep making alternatives. multiply the permutations of components together..
I have never liked XML files. Some people used them in game engines for storing various bits of data. I always 'rolled my own' or used a format inspired by something else. Only recently I encountered JSON and can put my finger on it, XML is designed for *documents* not *data*. JSON is quite common now though.
plus, you might still be 'thinking inside the box' as in the computer as a box. "The Network Is The Computer". The web handles 'object linking' perfectly. What do you have to gain with this system that you can't already acheive.
personally i think sharing via data is perfectly ok. but sure we can still streamline things, i'm just saying it doesn't take a 'revolutionary paradigm shift' or anything. Add support for the data you find important to the language or OS you prefer ..
so,thats OLE again. Plethora of languages won't go away. There are SO many ways of doing things, so many contrasting developer and user preferences. Hard enough to get 10 people to agree on something, let along millions :)
Why did OLE not become as prevalent as Microsoft wanted ? ... because it didn't offer anything that regular programming couldn't achieve already. Docs get much more complex than text -the app is like a mini OS. or if as simple as text, well a text box handles it
. "So what I imagine, is user data being treated as objects, and each program can manipulate these objects.|"
Microsoft called this concept OLE i think. I'm not so familiar, I have never used it. I dealt with graphics programming which re-used the COM object system they developed *for* OLE, thats how I heard of it.
"Object Linking and Embedding" - wiki/google it :) most 'new ideas' have already been tried. Implementation (subsequent complexities) determine if they catch on.
so, you have 'word pad' (or word or open office or whatever) for editing rich text, then you could send over network, then email program was invented to manage mailboxes but still primarily rich text etc... it's all there and i doubt you can improve much by tearing all down. If there's a specific task you want to streamline you can find or write a program to do it. Beauty of Linux OS&UI itself is opened up for community to modify (so e.g. I can try my smart file/WM merge idea)
regarding your modules idea, you have it with file formats. programs can interact via files. Each program is a visualizer and editor for a data format (text,images, 3d models etc). I understand what you're trying to say but as the levels of complexity for the data increase, the level of the interface does too . e.g. you start with primitive C functions, then make objects, then complete modules. When coding you need visualizers for the intermediate components (debug)
wheras Microsoft Visual Studio uses it's "intellisense" to try and show you, there's a "code definition window" that you can open that shows def of whats in the current editor view), call graph browsers, etc to show you the same information. Their model breaks down sometimes. e.g. if you use tricks like 'x-macros' it can confuse intellisense which assumes purist C++. It works very well overall though, but I always like to be able to go back to raw command line tools.
r.e."dependancy graph aware window manager" - imagine if you highlight a pair of source files and it shuffles surrounding icons for the mutual dependancies, and most likely links for things you're about to look at.
with a decent multi-desktop manager however, you kind of do that manually, by shuffling between panes.[more]
About the link between Window Manager and file/module system,
see the difference between "Photoshop" and "Gimp".
Photoshop includes a 'master window' to contain it's palettes and separate image documents.
Gimp (unix world) relies on the OS's window-manager to group everything onto a Desktop.
in PS, photoshops' 'master window' IS a desktop. but in the latter case, any enhancements (like zooming thumbnails, HUGELY useful for images!) are useable across all programs.
e.g. my 'dependancy graph aware file & window manager', i'd write it for myself& maybe put on GitHub, as a fork of some existing WM.but it's too small/fringe idea to make a salable component, & probably not needed anyway because.... *existing big programs have usually already figured out the best 'combinations' of modules* - "MS Visual Studio" is like a "mini OS" for programmers tools; "3DS Max" is a "mini OS" for 3D graphics tools; Photoshops is a "mini OS" for image manipulation.
never a consensus on best language or OS, so of course many modules exist in different systems. C-sharp or java, c++ or objective c, ... javascript or python...
if you have a problem that needs solving , chances are you CAN do it by adapting your module into a C library and sticking it into the unix ecosystem. Making the GUI /shell more aware of datatypes (it already exists) is a good way to help interoperability. see my idea of a dependancy scanner.
>>"Imagine a GUI which you could instant message from, mail from, edit text with, compress files, send files"
... like a web-browser :) javascript, connected to other programs all over the world.
Usually when someone has a revolutionary idea, it's possible to achieve the same functionality with small changes to the existing systems.
C is an imperfect language, but it's ubiquitous because it did the most useful bits first, then people started writing the most useful programs with it
>>" Hence why I don't consider making windows simply easier to deal with a big deal."
>>" Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units"
. Hint:
each window IS a plug able unit.
a 'monolithic program' (e.g. IDE) manages lots of views in one. The Unix idea (with a great window manager like Fluxbox or.. Gnome Shell) provides greater ability for the user to manipulate many smaller views (& processes).
@BoraxMan25 ... even Windows for multitasking might not have been needed, e.g. you just get people to keep their old computer alongside their new one and run 2 single-tasks side by side :)
this could really happen with Phones & Tablets. see the sony tablet 'P"? it suggests multitasking by having 1 app per screen. Now imagine a folding case for 2 phones. or an iPhone & pod touch. or iPod as secondary window, iPad as primary.
>>"and it would require a complete revolution in the way software is distributed,"
open source is one way,
app store is another. App store/phone OS keeps the apps in their own sandboxes but does provide ways of apps sharing data, the OS having standard types i think (like emails,videos,images), and of course communicating over web via URLs.
Most of the time you can 'retrofit' a new idea. [more]
>>"but one where the routines are in memory, standardised and appear to the OS as one conglomerate of code, "
... i think there have been many attempts in sliding scale. dlls/shared libraries, COM objects (fancy all wrapper?) , NeXT's objective C model is a decent object system... etc. and there were attempts to make entire OS around LISP (modern languages like jscript/python are "better lisp's"). A question of making Python interface to your favorite C++ libs.
>>"and writing honest to god modules. So there would be one for e-mail, and any program could hook into it and use it."
- the open source world might be the closest you can get to this , because the C++ application source and their internal libraries are all available, so any coder can link together the various bits into a useful permutation.. if it doesn't already exists. S/w dev moves VERY fast... all the useful programs appear very quickly, IMO
... then my WindowManager/FileManger/shell would keep visual links between launcher icons & minimized window icons, and shuffle them around for you. a big dependancy graph. ditto the artist's files have xrefs/textures. Now peeps have done this already but usually claim that the spatial 'node-graph' is a gimmick and not a good way to actually navigate. I would like to challenge that assumption in a world where you have smooth transitions, having seen just how good Expose is.
>>"Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units which interconnect and libraries, but no one has really seen the logical conclusion of this model. "
- I'll tell you one of my ideas to build into a Window Manager with integrated File Manager shell.
I would like this manager to scan dependancy information in certain file types, e.g. for me coding, a '.h' depends on other includes, and there's a link between c&h. Generalize it (plugin to scan files & generate dependancy list)
"That is, getting rid of the idea of discrete software packages, and writing honest to god modules."
I think microsoft tried to do something like this with COM and document embedding i.e. you could have a bit of a spreadsheet program (spreadsheet Module) embedded in a Word document etc etc.
.. but it didn't catch on so well
Similarly the Web is master of this. webpage (jscript!) mixes views onexternal databases. "the network is the computer".bringing us back to ***PHONES***.
>>"Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units which interconnect and libraries"
- ok now you're making some sense :)
I agree. But desktop/windows/files allows easy sharing between progs
Personally I would like to see an OS built on say Javascript REPL as it's shell. (with gui over the top). Some people tried to make LISP systems like this.
The difficulty is the plethora of languages, can't avoid. Unix works well by having shell scripts pass files between C programs[...]
... well it isn't for me. For coding, you need the ability to jump between many areas of a program, search in documentation for external libraries. 2 screens was essential... until I tried a Mac with expose+spaces. 'mission-control' broke it, but gnome 3 improves by making expose for the 'current space'. I work with artists who build/animate 3d scenes, again many views on the same object..
At work, e-mail, MS Word, Excel, using the inventory management system, web, web based apps. ok - well all these are pretty simple uses of computers. The revolution right now is moving as may functions as possible to **PHones**, computing in your pocket, always connected, ultra-mobile, **** With the potential to make the whole concept of an OFFICE obsolete ****
e.g. Word ? - record voice instead of text. Excell? app-store allows coders to make many 'fixed function' spreadsheets
windows are to allow you to use multi-tasking, many documents open at once, or many views on the same large document, e.g. like being able to see several pages from a book simultaneously*
the 'old model' is where the whole computer can only run one task. (.. which phones are resurrecting incidentally, but there the idea is you have more than one screen.. tablet=primary/large, phone=secondary/small).
Genuinely curious: could you give me some context here - 'When I'm basically doing the EXACT the tasks the EXACT same way as 10 years ago'. what do you use computers for.
>>"but when you compare what a fraction of the talent could do back 20-30 years ago, with what masses can achieve, its underwhelming. "
- Suggestion: get android SDK and make android apps. Find something that you think is wasteful on the desktop and write an app to achieve the same task on a touchscreen. mobile has more revolutionary potential than desktop right now.
[this could be why desktop coders are trying to copy mobile, like a migration path].
- yes, the graphical transitions are fun to code,so it will get done as a hobby and peeps can give it away. it's great!
>>"(thousands of progs involved)"... out of BILLIONS of people!!!
I recall a taxi driver being concerned 'society has become so apathetic that 50 people can spend 2 years making a game". But in the UK, games = 10,000 people - 00016% of the population or 1 in every 6000 workers- hardly a big waste at all, vs the fun created.
by building a spatial asset link feature into the gui, it's available to multiple programs, user learns once. although this is probably put into IDE.
As you probably know, bigger programs do their own internal Window Management. (e.g. dev-studio provides its own tabs, tiling..)
in the Linux/Unix philosophy, it's more ideal to have several simpler/smaller programs that interact with each other: it's easier for community to fork/customize components. Hence multi-desks etc i think.
maybe your needs aren't as intensive as mine (coding), so you don't appreciate spaces/expose?
i would like to see a gui which manages links between windows. spaces lets you do that manually. Apple are trying i.e. grouping by app. but lets say you have documents open and a file browser window that has the location they are opened from. In the zoomed out view you could link/cluster them, connect with lines perhaps. Maybe wins could show call graph. Art linked too (mesh/tex/anim..)
it does save you time learning software (keyboard shortcuts) to have more functions triggered in a spatial, intuitive way.
I might have the win system i want (mipmap style zui?) I still haven't seen one out of the box that works exactly how i want. I definitely found expose+spaces let me do more with a smaller screen-saving physical resource. Gui helps you manage more information. (what "Information Technology" is for, funnily enough)
>>"I suppose it provides "jobs" and all those other rubbish arguments"
- i do think ballpark only half the jobs are actually needed, because of oil-powered machines, so it's up to people to find ways of making themselves popular to each other as opposed to doing something necessary. Hence TV,entertainment, people throwing millions at celebrities, all the other bullshit. Surely programmers practicing skills by writing Gui's aren't so bad?
so if you think we're just doing the same things as 20 years ago maybe you aren't looking or trying hard enough.
Mobile is a revolution in infrastructure too. Permanently connected computing will reduce the need for transport to & from offices. People and businesses who adapt to teleworking (eliminating car) will have big advantage over those who don't as we go further past peak oil ( although some think we won't be able to maintain comps, but they'll last longer than cars IMO)
Reduction in watts required to achieve a task?via fine grain production & consumption (e.g: instead of 10000 peeps using spreadsheet software to customize own calculation. 100 people write 100x1 apps tailored to 100 people's need, resulting in less energy consumption to perform that calculation, and it runs on a pocket device instead of a bulky desktop. & less need for WP because peeps communicate with recorded voice & video instead of text.
Regarding wasting labour - in the Industrial Age it only takes 2% of the workforce to feed us. We are fed by OIL, not labour. we have **technological unemployment,** so un-necassery services fill people's time. Hairdressing, serving coffee, writing GUIs, whatever. If you have a better use for peoples time, speculate, invest, take a lead..
You have volunteers using their supercomputers for folding at home trying to cure cancer. Home super-computers are side effect of demand for Gaming.
>>"when I'm basically doing the EXACT same tasks the EXACT same way as 10 years ago"
- there peeps trying to miniaturize this. the whole mobile app phenomenon is about doing the same tasks for less energy.
I don't know what you use computers for... but in graphics /gaming the leap is huge. I imagine for CAD/scientific simulation too, the power you can get in a common desktop is a huge step forward, e.g. run FEA on your home machine.. if you just word-process what are you expecting?
People will code new guis because it is fun. They code for pleasure, it's mental exercise. Thats primarily why open-source-software exists.
also, people will buy or use new guis because they like novelty.
Now none of this precludes 'folding @home', widespread use of video , 3d gaming, etc. computers are different for many reasons. GUI is the first thing you complain about? with linux you choose the GUI you like or go back to command-line.
Why not just Tab-Bars ? They don't satisfy me as they only show window title.
When you have a source open, you are usually concerned with a specific area (source file contains many functions / declarations etc). the visual content of the window is needed.
code folding or bookmarks can help but isn't perfect. more hotkeys/buttons to remember. the best way I've encountered is *better window management*. Prior to Expose+Spaces+MUlti-TouchTrackpad, the best method was 'briefs' tiling
recently after using virtual desktops I recalled that microsoft/mac both removed 'z-order control', many other managers had a key for sending a window to the back of z-order (e.g. middle click or a dedicated icon). it was deemed to complicated for the mainstream. It might be the case that using that a bit more gets some of the benefits that recently were added with virtual desks i.e. ability to temporarily dismiss. but keep spatial location.
>>"Tablets HAVE to have a GUI like that, because of the fact they are a tablet."
-whats being revealed it's possible to improve on the whole overlapping idea. People picked overlapping windows in 1980's because they made it more visually comfortable to remember where things were - smallest movement. What changed recently is cheap 3D hardware, tech trickledown from 3D games. When you can animate transitions (e.g. zooming, panning) it's possible for tiles to work well. all in flux!
so to sumarise, I haven't seen the perfect tool I want, i could try & get job at MS/Apple ask them to let me try it there (unlikely), i could write 3rd party tool (iPad coder's editor?), or..I could jump on some open source- find the WM/Text-editor combo thats closest to what I want to try, modify it, and give it away. Linux/OSS is a great alternative to the market that can exist because it is so easy to copy, ideas take on life of their own , whats not to like???
it will take time, but I hypothesize eventually touch will yield better UI than keys+mouse - but we can't just throw the existing conventions away, (user momentum) - so they evolve. Hence the big drive in microsoft, apple, and of course linux to *do the experiments** .. For Coding, a virtual keyboard is pretty poor but guess what- all those windows are open for reference, they usually contain the words you want to type. what if reference windows could be marked AS 'keyboards'..
@BoraxMan25 ... but it wasn't perfect, there are still tweaks that can be put in to make it better. For example, I would like to try arranging the workspaces like 'mipmaps' so you can increase the count above 2x2 and still have the recent ones visible 'large'. A program may involve 100,000 lines of code split across hundreds of source files, any help navigating is welcome. My colleagues are artists, they build scenes which may have hundreds or thousands of textures, millions of polys
@BoraxMan25 [more] - so enter Apple with their 'Expose' and 'Spaces', which took the virtual desk feature of technical unix world and made it more comfortable for the casual user with pleasing animations (your brain is designed to track moving objects).
When I got a Mac a few months ago, I can ell you the combination of MULTI-TOUCH-TRACKPAD plus EXPOSE/SPACES was a revelation: a 1280x800 screen was letting me be as productive as 1920x1080 on PC. it became my favorite environment. [more]
is window-management a solved problem, with consensus on how it should work ? no, there are many options. The current 'status quo' - overlapping - is on the way out, because it's been revealed as inefficient: it needs a MOUSE, when you are coding you are mostly typing: it might not sound it but shifting your right hand from screen to mouse is a jarring experience. (i recall text editor 'brief' which had very good inbuilt tiling & f1+cursor's shifted intuitively.) [more]
My experience coding is that more monitor/screen space is a good thing: you get 'claustrophobic' trying to remember where things are, easier to leave as much open as possible. IDE's have inbuilt navigation but you have to remember hotkeys or use tab-bars etc. more controls , more differences when you move from Mac to PC or from one language to another. The other solution is the Window Manager, simply leave things open. Virtual desks were invented as an easy way of having 'more'
There are people out there who simply enjoy writing code for it's own sake, because it is mental exercise, and humans - their defining characteristic vs other species being 'toolmakers' - have a natural instinct to tinker and create randomly (true invention often comes from this random sampling process).
Hence the world of open-Source, where someone came up with the idea of these random creations being given away so we can build on eachother's
it is true for example the Amiga OS had great mixture of fullscreen and windowed apps boasted by OSX lion but back in 1985. something like Gnome Shell is not a problem though because, it is not a commercial product. it's open source, made by voluntary donations, no one is forcing you to use it :) if you think you can improve on it, grab the source and do so. or replace it with any window manager you like.. the range of options on linux is great. Fluxbox remains my favorite
I'll be honest, I've been using GNOME 3 in Ubuntu 11.10 for a while now, and... I like it. It looks fantastic and I like the way you navigate windows with full previews. Window lists just confuse me, and stuff like Windows 7's Aero Peek features make me despise normal window tabs now. I dislike how it's not as customizable as GNOME 2 or KDE, but compared to Unity, I like GNOME 3. It's different, yes, but it's pretty interesting and works for me. Haters gonna hate, I suppose. Me gusta, GNOME Team
@UberSquirrelUnite i know right, I love gnome 3. They went in a different dirrection and i must say a better one. Who knows, maybe linux developers finaly try to gain a larger piece of market.
Thank you gnome team. For making everything we do each day extremely hard. Simplicty is key your gui is not key it is hard difficult and cluttered. This GUI is just sad especially if you are a power user. Im going to KDE. At least it is simpler.
I'm seeing advancement in low level features like programming languages & the web itself. GPGPU is a massive change (massively parallel super-computers on the desk ) that has grown in past decade. there's R&D in s/w to go with it, etc functional programming (haskell etc)
just because some guys like to make some icon/window differences, doesn't mean the other advancement isn't doing on.
the rest of us do have great computers now at least. land maybe not, but I enjoy the gadgets today i do see them as progress and I hope they survive peak oil...
just curious, have you used a mac, pre-lion, the handling of multi-desktops + expose is really great. Splitting 4 desks & expose means you have instant visual multi-level window switching, e.g. keep recent things on one desk or at the top of each desk, then delve again to see more. ( a tweak I would like is same hotkey for Expose and show all desks, i.e. hit it once to show more, then hit twice to show absolutely everything). Its good all these alternate workflows exist.
this isn't a restrictiion , its an improvement. getting rid of screenclutter for netbooks/laptops.
titlebar+taskbar was always wasted screenspace. if you have something maximzied you dont need the title visible on both the taskbar and the titlebar. its good they're trying something new! both unity + gnome3 = 2 different directions.. choice. and you can always go back to xfce for traditional method (i like fluxbox most)
where multi desktops showed the way is handling of fullscreen (see Lion). Quicker to just swipe between fullscreen & window env than it is to use fidly maximize/minimize buttons. i like getting rid of wastefull screenclutter (titlebars etc) but there was no need to wait for apple's multitouch gestures, on linux you could always do this with the pointer simply scrolling off the sceen edge, or mousewheel, or hotkeys. Linux showed how it could work, apple sanitized for masses.
tablet/gui - how about, tablet with its simplified gui, then enable bluetooth keyboard and you get your old-school efficient command line back.. you can have both.
Yes I use minimalist environments with linux. I like setting it up for pure kb use (eg window tiling on hotkeys). i like using it with desktop enviro. To attract new users linux needs eyecandy. devs like making eyecandy for its own sake (think DemoCoders) win-win situation. Useless 'desktop cube' drew in attention
unifying tablet/pc/desktop is not a fad. it is the future. If i can do everything on my phone/tablet that my laptop could then I can ditch my laptop. In near future display tech will advance to headsets ("eye-phones") - so you just carry phone,glasses,kb. Seems like you are just looking in the rear-view mirror? Peak oil may mean no more mains electricity.. advantages of desktop wiped out. See 3rd world (mobile = instant infrastructure) for glimpse of peakoil changes
"tablet pc's limited' - but they needn't be. apple have introduced them that way. Linux has always excelled at getting the most of lesser hardware, but in this case its' superior computing Per WATT, via ARM... hugely important in future. Linux can and should be showing the way: an energy efficient phone can be built into a complete computer. Look at motorola atrix limited 'webtop' hint. or braben 'rasperi pi'. peak oil needs energy efficiency.
fair points, but I think linux devs do probably feel pressured to 'prove' linux can do anything osx or windows can. r.e. 'forefront', linux had multiple desktops before mac osx i think? there is an opportunity for a linux to work well on both Phone, Tablet and Desktop.. its a perfect arena for an open-source experimenter. Whats win8 really, just a launcher tile grid and tile menus.. linux can do that easy. I'm 100% with you about linux being about customizablity and choice though!
I've been playing around with GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 and can't understand the backlash against it - it's awesome! The fastest way to launch any app in my opinion. I will be using this in Ubuntu 11.10 instead of Unity. Good job Gnome team!
i would change it so the workspaces are always visible like on the mac. i do prefer this current behaviour to mission-control though. (I dont like mission-control app-bundles)
No. Minimize/Maximize buttons are un-necasery screen clutter. (as are Title Bars!!!)
the drag idea is better.
Use a hotkey if you are a power user. or double click.
or better still, use a tiling WM which always devotes entire screenspace to whats open. Overlapping WM's are an anachronism designed before computers could easily shift & scale images with 3D hardware, they are a mess. what use is an L shaped crop? either show the whole thing, or a thumbnail.
the old style menus-with-titlebars and definitely windows-copy drop-menus were never good.. the latter very ugly and wasteful on screenspace. I'd like to see tiled WM's more on these UI reworks. microsoft has it right with the 'drag other window onto side creating tiled layout' idea. Combined with Expose it would rock. Overlapping windows were solution to past era when you couldn't scale things, its completely obselete and wastes user time
but such users can just use Fluxbox or whatever. Its' absolutely the right way to go to give new users options like this: also linux MUST keep up with the touchscreen 'fad' - phones/tablets/computers are all becoming one and the same, and its a good thing - linux should be there at the forefront.
a touch UI could theoretically be faster than mouse+keyboard for people who dont learn the legacy QWERTY layout :) .. also some of these UIs are good with kb (visually teach launch chords)
@omgitsmikegravel - I absolutely want my cellphone and computer to be one and the same thing. I want the same machine to show a UI which adapts and works well regardless if its on my pocket device or if I plug it into a bigger screen and use that pocket device as a remote. with computers being 'fast enough' for most users/uses they should be miniaturized until they fit in a watch
And stop saying GNOME 3 looks like MacOS or anything, I'm sick of people saying this or that or [insert name here] looks like MacOS or iOS. Does this has anything similar to Mac? It has taskbar and icons?
If you ask, I will say GNOME 3 uses a lot of UI concepts from WebOS and a bit from Android Honeycomb. And that is not a bad thing, that is the whole idea of open source where ideas can be reused and make better things, right? I don't think the folks at HP/Palm and Google are unhappy with that.
I have been using GNOME 3 for a while and I must say it is great! Its design is very intelligent and most things you can do with the least interaction possible. It is a bit unstable for now, but I believe they can fix it soon.
It may be a little unfamiliar at first, but isn't it the same when you switch from Windows to Linux or Mac or vice versa? When you're getting used to it you will surely love that.
It may all look fine with five applications, but users tend to use more applications than than that. With Gnome lately, it's all about extra-credit but no work. It's all flash in the pan, and no substance. Gnome, as a desktop GUI is ruined. Gnome is too fat to put on a tablet, and so Gnome made a pigeon-rat; it can't fly, and it can't fit hide in the hole.
I cannot believe this was approved. Gnome's leadership needs to be impeached!!! I was a former supporter of Gnome.
@Avatarass 10 years? Ver. 3 shell was introduced in 2005. That is 6 years. If ya dont like it, leave it for Windows or what ever other one you want. That is the neat thing about Linux, your not tied to it.
@duane2072 withiout paying for my Windows 7 neither am I. Linux community has been taking baby steps forever now. The fact that its free is not enough for users to close their eyes on all that crapware Linux has to offer.
@Avatarass Windows doesnt have crap ware? I can show you tons of it. Windows is taking baby steps. Win 3.1 to Win 95, the biggest GUI change through all of this. Then Fat16 to Fat32 then to NTFS filing system. Nothing has changed much here since Win 95 in the GUI. Moving stuff and rounding corners dont count. I dont see anything else changing as far as that goes either. All the same since Win 95 except fileing system. Big whoop, not very stable if ya ask me and that is a fact.
Respond to this video... Everyone says Linux is copying stuff. Really, show me where. This has been in the works since 2005. Windows 7 was released in 2009. I definitely dont recall Win 95 or 98 having such capabilities of compiz which in turn comes all the way from the mid 90's. Open Suse had cube. XP did Brico pack (barely) to compete with it. Vista was just garbage from the get go. Are they really that ashamed of Windows to make such claims because they werent first at something?
@Avatarass The GNOME project is known for being slow to change, it has always been this way. That's just GNOME though.
You can't just group GNOME with all other Linux projects. Linux is a completely separate project from GNOME , and it's constantly being updated. GNOME is also just one of many desktop environments. KDE is another desktop environment like GNOME, and it had many features that ended up in MS Win7 years before Microsoft even released Win7.
I got no idea how anyone could vote this up, Gnome 3 is a disaster and further proof how Microsoft achieved complete control over Gnome via the Novell deal.
4werr0n3 3 days ago
Once Gnome 3 comes out for Debian Stable, I'm switching to Xfce!
ImageJPEG 1 week ago 3
Gnome 3 is an "abomination" for any one with computer knowledge but the general public like cutesy crap. The music in the vid fits the display of how babyish it is. It looks good for a touch screen or table pc but keep that cutesy shit off my desktop.
InlandTech909 2 weeks ago 2
i'm happy with good ol' gnome. gnome 3 is a monstrosity.
mah0aga 3 weeks ago
oh (windows 7)snap!
DrOhReally 3 weeks ago
I love Gnome 3.
ZukutoBTD 3 weeks ago
wtf wrong with linux community nowadays? fuck unity and gnome 3..both are awful
slier81 4 weeks ago
Gnome 3 is the worst thing that has happened to Linux !
junaidnaseer 1 month ago
@junaidnaseer I don't know, Unity sucked hard. At least Xfce remains decent
ProManUnitedFan 2 weeks ago 2
@ProManUnitedFan Xfce is the future ... KDE and Gnome lost the plot ...
Xfce and LXDE are the only options now ...
junaidnaseer 1 week ago
@junaidnaseer Xfce and LXDE = WIN! What do you think is worse, Unity or GNOME 3?
ProManUnitedFan 1 week ago
@ProManUnitedFan I haven't used unity, but it looks terrible from what I've seen on youtube.
Gnome 3, I have used on a virtual machine and immediately switched to KDE and then to XFCE. The moment SuSE Linux Enterprise "updates" to gnome 3, I am switching away from SUSE linux too to opensuse.
I guess the only distros which will survive in future are the ones with XFCE, LXDE and maybe KDE options.
junaidnaseer 1 week ago
I like Gnome 3, it's even better with the extensions.
pizzadude808 1 month ago 11
Gnome.... Dumbing down the desktop since 1997...
random28152 1 month ago
I've tried LXDE and XFCE - they are somewhat ok, but their terminal sucks. If you change fonts in one, they all inherit it. Also, they don't like reboot - keep forgetting settings. Thus, I'm on fallback mode in G3, and GNOME 3 still sucks! It's awful! Bring back Gnome 2 you tablet heads!
pashanoid 2 months ago
Gnome 3 is the only WM that can cause someone to throw up a lung... or worse...
gm3dgames 2 months ago
i don't like GNOME3...!!! there is lot of ineficient space and hard to reconfigure.
let's go back to GNOME2!!!
ekogenuine 2 months ago 3
Remember the days when Gnome used to work?
random28152 2 months ago
i want to try it, it's good. it's also free because it belongs to Linux.
robertsonpenaroyo 2 months ago
this sucks , other desktop does already those things.
nowardev 2 months ago
It's so completely different from gnome 2, that it should be started as a completely separate project. Gnome 2 was almost perfect and this... thing is just awful. Why improve something when it ain't broke?
asfaltyn 2 months ago
@asfaltyn because we as gnome developers want to integrate new features to keep up with the market, gnome 2 is still available
radicalphantom1 2 months ago
@radicalphantom1
But the problem is Gnome 2 WILL eventually die unless somebody forks it successfully (and currently there is no viable alternative for it among desktops), whereas if Gnome 3 was started as a separate desktop project I believe everybody would be happy. Gnome 2 is for people like me who don't need those new features. With Gnome 3 they are forced upon them. Just give people choice and they'll be happy.
asfaltyn 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This looks ridiculous on my large monitor. They assume everyone is using netbooks.
japadamaray 2 months ago
Comment removed
japadamaray 2 months ago
is that ubuntu?
ryancouture 3 months ago
I can't stand knome 3 the "start" button takes up the whole screen
julienmauricemort 3 months ago
Gnome 3 is an abomination! It's awful!
pashanoid 3 months ago 13
@pashanoid do u know any good alternatives
gamezonic 2 months ago
If you have to learn how to, learn how learn, how to use a DE - then its a bad DE. Gnome 3 is is for the elite only. Since I'm just a pleeb, I'll just use a DE that helps me get my work done. Hello KDE and Xfce, remember me... I'm back because Gnome 3 threw me out, can I crash on your couch?
MrEsposition 3 months ago
@MrEsposition lol u studder when typing
gamezonic 2 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - the dev tools ram it home:
i *want* to use linux & mix of simple tools instead of one big IDE. but what MS did is integrate useful features in one program..the edit/debug/intellisense tools all tightly integrated and working well. I like virtual desktops for multiplying the power of simple tools but an IDE has it's own internal navigation. e.g. there's a handy view called 'code definition' , a window that just shows defs as you move the cursor around in the main view.
walter0bz 3 months ago
@BoraxMan25 >>"Well, thats the day I lose interest in computing. "
-- when one grew up on the Amiga (see info PM) you see mainstream MS computing knowing there's something terribly wrong :) Linux and the move from Intel to ARM both fix this, they certainly keep things fresh. for me using linux at home has a nostalgic feel in that reminds me of the non-microsoft amiga days, even if linux & amiga are themselves very different. But I hate to have to admit that MS dev tools are the best :(
walter0bz 3 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>> " I open it up in e-mail, switch the window to image editing mode, edit, switch the window to the e-mail app and send. One document, one GUI window."
-- I haven't used them much but I gather this is the way google are trying to take us with web-based apps. i've been sent a spreadsheet by someone for me to fill some data in and it gets updated in realtime by multiple people :)
the 'one doc, one GUI window' = the web browser. of course the web is all about data pointing elsewhere
walter0bz 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BoraxMan25
>>"But persistant storage, quick and accessible by the CPU is something novel. "
-- again i think the phones probably have this,
SSD's are probably a step in this directions - OS's which have save/restore of state would add h/w support for faster boot time.
hard drives: you're always going to have a trade of between size & speed. programmers (and even users, when they make choices) are always going to have to deal with managing / prioritizing speed/size
walter0bz 3 months ago
Does compiz works on it?
arewr666 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
- "app vs data centric"...
new data starts in apps. So thats why it's app centric. a pioneering App invents a data format, from then on it's known as 'photoshop layers' or whatever. then other apps may read the same data. Without a primary App to create or view, a data standard cannot be defined.other apps may only need 'read-only' products of that data: e.g. 3d animation renders out images, read by other programs that don't need to know the whole 3d file format & rendering pipelin
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
Google Mac OSX "Services"
services=cross app functions applicable to a text selection, possibly more?
ditto NeXT/MacOSX dock supports drag/drop of file types. and again to re-iterate, the Desktop makes things data centric. Just get into the habit of keeping your current files created ON the desktop - and move 'old' work out into folders once they're no longer 'current'. win has desktop button to recall this file overview open data in whatever app you want.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"We can do a lot more with existing technology, its SO powerful, "
... well get coding then! nothing stopping you.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - ok ok, volatile/non volatile... virtual memory... ram drive... can't you see we have every permeation of memory speed/size/persistance?
even if you have non-volatile ram, you still want large hard-drive capacity surely (or you rely on the Cloud to do that for you, which is bigger but slower than hard-drive). you won't have everything in RAM ally the time!! EVER!!!! only an illusion through caching. EXISTING SOFTWARE DOES THIS
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25>> "Instead, now we have a situation where removing maximise and minimise buttons is now considered innovation."
- Streamlining by removing un-necassery buttons does not preclude other forms of innovation!!!! What % of the worlds productive capability is going on gnome 3? there are SEVEN BILLION people on the earth. every software corner can get explored, really. including every permutation of minimize/close windows :)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"You can then open a window for the document, and the GUI provides controls allowing you to change the window to whatever application is capable of doing something with it"
- You can do this now. you just need to change the app, not the OS. Add a right click function or menu to your app, "Open WIth...". .. and consult OS's MIME types/registered programs for file types. No offense but it sounds like you are not very good at figuring out ways of doing things
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - local apps will always be faster sure. Cloud is convenience: i'm finding dropbox is easier than setting up home networking & allows me to telework with some colleagues. haven't even started using github yet, that looks great again. But I'd prefer not to get lazy and keep things local..
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"the same computing paradigm from weak desktop PC's from the 80's"
no we aren't. artists use Z-Brush which wasn't possible in 1980s. casual users use computers to create and consume videos to an extent not possible in 1980's. coders have sophisticated IDE's with program navigation not possible in the 1980's. most serious programs are fullscreen with some internal windowing.
... Just take your favorite app, and add a right click menu drag/drop support.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
"opens data in a window, then selects any app that can apply to it".
but apps already have multiple views with different types of manipulator.
some apps use data read-only, others change it.
complex manipulations take dedicated UI.
simple ones (text,images, email)are a solved problem.
Describe a real use case of a type of data manipulator you haven't yet seen.
in iOS the os knows about simple files (images,email) and provides APIs for individual apps to view them.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
they are changing the paradigm now, with iOS, mac OSX lion/win8 both making moves to make desktop more like mobile. And linux is trying too. And Google is pushing things in a different direction with cloud hosting.
No offense but you have the wrong end of the stick.
Software is very cheap to experiment (compared to other fields), all the ideas get rapidly tried & explored especially by open source. You really aren't describing anything new, or that you can't add as simple tweak
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
I dont accept you are describing anything new.
you have many protocols for sharing data, all you want to do is get more people to agree, i.e. different apps using same protocols for similar data? It can be achieved by monopoly/dictatorship i.e. Autodesk now owns all the major 3D packages so they all have crosswalk, but I prefer variety and competition. COnseus for something this complex is truly impossibly. (thanks to Creativity & Imagination of a world of devs with diffent ideas)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - i think it really is trivial. the workaround is, apps get built up. Photoshop does everything you could to an image, + user plugins. other apps can read images in. i've seen 3d tools which can control external views with their cameras.Major apps have SDK's getting around the data-sharing issue. Files get really complex e.g. 3d animation. simple files like anim/images are sorted already.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
yes, iOS experience is effectively like non-volatile. you have to go to a separate screen to close an app, state is preserved between sessions by default - part of apples' UI minimalist/streamlining.
but, it is more App centric than desktop ... although most apps are connected allowing you to share by email/web. Web is already collaborative. Web, Mobile were both individually bigger revolutions than "autosave"/data sharing, and combined
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"So when computers have non volatile RAM, we are going to do nothing new with it?"
[1] I can't see non volatile being much different from caching to hard drive
[2] I can\t see cache heiracheis going away, even if you had non-volatlite you would still have a trade off between small/fast and large/slow ram, so I don't' believe your entire storage would work like that - there would be user or s/w decisions as to how some non-volatile was used.
walter0bz 4 months ago
Spamming over 10 Sites, are you Guys stupid?
IHaTeD2 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
. of course if you just kept the finder/exporer/file browser window open, you'd have the files' icon for drag easily at hand, you wouldn't need a new icon. Working with current files in the Desktop folder also works well on many guis. (only recently started doing this myself) Especially with multiple virtual desktops where instead of "Hide All' you can just go to a fresh desktop for a new task when you run out of screen space, and easily jump back to the previous state.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"We kind of have that now, with copy and paste, but its clunky."
there's file drag/drop, i don't know if there's a way to initiate a 'file drag' from an open view but perhaps this could be integrated into the WindowManager: i.e. an icon on the Titlebar that represents the window's *File* as a drag-drop *source*. When doing lazy UI I used file-drag drop for adding textures in world editors to save me time coding texture browsers :) (i.e. reuse functionality existing in FileMgr)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
"MY idea, is that you don't have to specifically code for a GUI, or command line interface to be aware of what the program is doing."
- My experience suggests data structures (File Formats) are everything.
saving/opening files is quick enough for moving between apps, h.d. is faster than user attention switch.
more: some linux WM's use 'Focus Follows Mouse' - this gives more seamless user experience for switching. Tiled WM's can remove titlebars making individual progs seem 'closer'.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 ... but the reason my idea isn't already common: Virtual Desktops already do enough?. START: double click the folder containing what you want. double click the file you want. edit it. go back to the folder - it's still a WINDOW on the same screen.. right click, 'open with.. ' to do something else with it. To Switch major task, move to new desktop. "Desktop" directory is a universal 'important' folder for most common items. & You can prioritize 'sticky windows'. its great! [more]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 ... this is why I want to integrate file-mgr into window-mgr. You can manually group with virtual desktops. My simple idea is more assist, links between File Mgr windows & views on their files.. e.g. when you pick a Directory window, thumbnails of open views on it's data glide into view. Similarly, select an app window, and the file manager that contains it's file also glides into view.
This is an easy, non-invasive 'retrofit' that can slot into the linux ecosystem right now...
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
>>"This also means, that you could be editing an image in one program, or editing text, and another program could access the same data, "
- many programs have a button to open the File Manager to reveal the file being edited by one view.(e.g. "show in finder" in Xcode)-you're 1 click + menu from opening data in another program. Thumbnails for data, and use a VIRTUAL DESKTOP MANAGER to group both file-managers & specific app views in task related spaces :) try it, it works well!!
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"and allow you to call a loaded procedure
Shared libraries between application programs already exist.
>>" such as spell check, or "send via e-mail" on it or save to file. "
iOS does this by integrating such common services, providing API's for web services like email. Its pretty good. so it's just down to the app designer (app = focussed manipulator for one datatype) to put convenient UI in.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"which will lend itself towards blurring between documents in memory and those on disk."
- of course you also have RAM caching for physical disk drives, and to bring up another Amiga feature there was also literally the 'RAM drive',an area of memory accessed through file system interface. add 'auto-save' (or stick with save = commit,load=undo paradigm) and you're there. Your folder view on a RAM drive IS your method of picking a piece of in-memory data to operate on
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
"future is non volatile ram".
no.
the future is ever deepening caching hierarchies. small amounts of fast /close memory, large amounts of slower, more remote slow memory. Caching has been extended to the web/cloud (hard drives kept remotely, server based applications), allowing you to view & modify your data from interfaces on multiple devices, including Phones .. which are capable of replacing computers for many users. just waiting for "eye-phones" for generalized big screen..
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
Complex 'documents' need version control, that also helps with collaboration. So the 'commit' phase between your current version and whats on disk is just one of a generalized set of commits.
In software dev, people sometimes have multiple versions of the same data open :) . Also regarding data in memory vs data on disk, there is compression to consider. Compression takes time/energy, and user foreknowledge of when to compress/expand ensure the right things are being 'archived'.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
I really don't think you're describing anything new.
If you want applications to share data, there is nothing in the OS stopping you. It is simply a case of getting 2 applications to agree on a protocol or data format or interface. Of course there are also many choices for the interface(fragmentation)... but this is unavoidable - consensus at such a scale is truly impossible. You can go ahead now & move your favorite data to your favorite interface.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"which will lend itself towards blurring between documents in memory and those on disk. "
How is that any different to any caching scheme - or laptops which save before powering down? Similarly there is version control, which generalizes the concept of "commit"/"undo" to arbitrary levels.
The "documents" i deal with are already distributed between many files. As are entities on the web.
have you looked at iOS at all? - it seems to do this 'save on quit/resume' routinely.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
also google 'amiga OS datatypes'.
amiga had a ton of great ideas despite being a 'hobbyist machine' that primarily satisfied the sorts of people who today code GUIs as you see in this video . Note that today we have OSX Lion claiming mixture of fullscreen & desktop as a 'new feature' whereas amiga OS had a 'hack' to achieve it smoothly on mid 1980's hardware (a side effect of gaming-oriented Copper). Amiga's 'ahead-of-its-time' multitasking+gui created env to pioneer Datatypes?
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - just to re-iterate doc simplicity/complexity & maybe why OLE didn't become ubiquitous.
if as simple as text, you can do already( text box) & yes you can link them to shared resources.
When as complex as '3D animation', it's too hard to build into the OS.
OS's do evolve to absorb features from more complex packages. e.g. they started with text, then 'learned' how to deal with images, even video, but other progs drive progress. C lets apps take on >OS-level complexity.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 - intel have interesting r&d experiments along the lines of cell, hardware messaging between process, again a completely different memory model.
and personally i'm a big fan of functional languages over 'object orientation's principle, these are catching on. but if you must do objects,next/apples Objective-C does it better than the more common c++, but its barely supported outside of mac/ios.
everything is in continuous flux ... keeps it interesting :)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"It just means you have a kind of all encompassing binary API, and shared memory to store data in. "
hell, recently we shifted to multicore cpus in mainstream, and the standard memory model doesn't even suit that. sony showed a better path with CELL but it's too unusual to have caught on (language to exploit it with ease doesn't exist) now GPGPU tries to solve similar problems, but again isn't quite right (can't handle same program complexity as gpgpu).
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
another issue, version control.
going via files is helpful.
when data gets complex, having discrete visualizers for different stages is helpful.
plus, look into google docs, web based apps.. is what you describe is already possible in a multi-user context ? ... since web pages can embed views on external data, and embed editors for that data. maybe OLE failed because it was too fine grain
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
plenty of things become nearly standard but they're not quite right, so people keep making alternatives. multiply the permutations of components together..
I have never liked XML files. Some people used them in game engines for storing various bits of data. I always 'rolled my own' or used a format inspired by something else. Only recently I encountered JSON and can put my finger on it, XML is designed for *documents* not *data*. JSON is quite common now though.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
plus, you might still be 'thinking inside the box' as in the computer as a box. "The Network Is The Computer". The web handles 'object linking' perfectly. What do you have to gain with this system that you can't already acheive.
personally i think sharing via data is perfectly ok. but sure we can still streamline things, i'm just saying it doesn't take a 'revolutionary paradigm shift' or anything. Add support for the data you find important to the language or OS you prefer ..
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
so,thats OLE again. Plethora of languages won't go away. There are SO many ways of doing things, so many contrasting developer and user preferences. Hard enough to get 10 people to agree on something, let along millions :)
Why did OLE not become as prevalent as Microsoft wanted ? ... because it didn't offer anything that regular programming couldn't achieve already. Docs get much more complex than text -the app is like a mini OS. or if as simple as text, well a text box handles it
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
. "So what I imagine, is user data being treated as objects, and each program can manipulate these objects.|"
Microsoft called this concept OLE i think. I'm not so familiar, I have never used it. I dealt with graphics programming which re-used the COM object system they developed *for* OLE, thats how I heard of it.
"Object Linking and Embedding" - wiki/google it :) most 'new ideas' have already been tried. Implementation (subsequent complexities) determine if they catch on.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
so, you have 'word pad' (or word or open office or whatever) for editing rich text, then you could send over network, then email program was invented to manage mailboxes but still primarily rich text etc... it's all there and i doubt you can improve much by tearing all down. If there's a specific task you want to streamline you can find or write a program to do it. Beauty of Linux OS&UI itself is opened up for community to modify (so e.g. I can try my smart file/WM merge idea)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
regarding your modules idea, you have it with file formats. programs can interact via files. Each program is a visualizer and editor for a data format (text,images, 3d models etc). I understand what you're trying to say but as the levels of complexity for the data increase, the level of the interface does too . e.g. you start with primitive C functions, then make objects, then complete modules. When coding you need visualizers for the intermediate components (debug)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
wheras Microsoft Visual Studio uses it's "intellisense" to try and show you, there's a "code definition window" that you can open that shows def of whats in the current editor view), call graph browsers, etc to show you the same information. Their model breaks down sometimes. e.g. if you use tricks like 'x-macros' it can confuse intellisense which assumes purist C++. It works very well overall though, but I always like to be able to go back to raw command line tools.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
r.e."dependancy graph aware window manager" - imagine if you highlight a pair of source files and it shuffles surrounding icons for the mutual dependancies, and most likely links for things you're about to look at.
with a decent multi-desktop manager however, you kind of do that manually, by shuffling between panes.[more]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
About the link between Window Manager and file/module system,
see the difference between "Photoshop" and "Gimp".
Photoshop includes a 'master window' to contain it's palettes and separate image documents.
Gimp (unix world) relies on the OS's window-manager to group everything onto a Desktop.
in PS, photoshops' 'master window' IS a desktop. but in the latter case, any enhancements (like zooming thumbnails, HUGELY useful for images!) are useable across all programs.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
e.g. my 'dependancy graph aware file & window manager', i'd write it for myself& maybe put on GitHub, as a fork of some existing WM.but it's too small/fringe idea to make a salable component, & probably not needed anyway because.... *existing big programs have usually already figured out the best 'combinations' of modules* - "MS Visual Studio" is like a "mini OS" for programmers tools; "3DS Max" is a "mini OS" for 3D graphics tools; Photoshops is a "mini OS" for image manipulation.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
how difficult it is..
never a consensus on best language or OS, so of course many modules exist in different systems. C-sharp or java, c++ or objective c, ... javascript or python...
if you have a problem that needs solving , chances are you CAN do it by adapting your module into a C library and sticking it into the unix ecosystem. Making the GUI /shell more aware of datatypes (it already exists) is a good way to help interoperability. see my idea of a dependancy scanner.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"Imagine a GUI which you could instant message from, mail from, edit text with, compress files, send files"
... like a web-browser :) javascript, connected to other programs all over the world.
Usually when someone has a revolutionary idea, it's possible to achieve the same functionality with small changes to the existing systems.
C is an imperfect language, but it's ubiquitous because it did the most useful bits first, then people started writing the most useful programs with it
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>" Hence why I don't consider making windows simply easier to deal with a big deal."
>>" Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units"
. Hint:
each window IS a plug able unit.
a 'monolithic program' (e.g. IDE) manages lots of views in one. The Unix idea (with a great window manager like Fluxbox or.. Gnome Shell) provides greater ability for the user to manipulate many smaller views (& processes).
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 ... even Windows for multitasking might not have been needed, e.g. you just get people to keep their old computer alongside their new one and run 2 single-tasks side by side :)
this could really happen with Phones & Tablets. see the sony tablet 'P"? it suggests multitasking by having 1 app per screen. Now imagine a folding case for 2 phones. or an iPhone & pod touch. or iPod as secondary window, iPad as primary.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"and it would require a complete revolution in the way software is distributed,"
open source is one way,
app store is another. App store/phone OS keeps the apps in their own sandboxes but does provide ways of apps sharing data, the OS having standard types i think (like emails,videos,images), and of course communicating over web via URLs.
Most of the time you can 'retrofit' a new idea. [more]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"but one where the routines are in memory, standardised and appear to the OS as one conglomerate of code, "
... i think there have been many attempts in sliding scale. dlls/shared libraries, COM objects (fancy all wrapper?) , NeXT's objective C model is a decent object system... etc. and there were attempts to make entire OS around LISP (modern languages like jscript/python are "better lisp's"). A question of making Python interface to your favorite C++ libs.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"and writing honest to god modules. So there would be one for e-mail, and any program could hook into it and use it."
- the open source world might be the closest you can get to this , because the C++ application source and their internal libraries are all available, so any coder can link together the various bits into a useful permutation.. if it doesn't already exists. S/w dev moves VERY fast... all the useful programs appear very quickly, IMO
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 ...
... then my WindowManager/FileManger/shell would keep visual links between launcher icons & minimized window icons, and shuffle them around for you. a big dependancy graph. ditto the artist's files have xrefs/textures. Now peeps have done this already but usually claim that the spatial 'node-graph' is a gimmick and not a good way to actually navigate. I would like to challenge that assumption in a world where you have smooth transitions, having seen just how good Expose is.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units which interconnect and libraries, but no one has really seen the logical conclusion of this model. "
- I'll tell you one of my ideas to build into a Window Manager with integrated File Manager shell.
I would like this manager to scan dependancy information in certain file types, e.g. for me coding, a '.h' depends on other includes, and there's a link between c&h. Generalize it (plugin to scan files & generate dependancy list)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
"That is, getting rid of the idea of discrete software packages, and writing honest to god modules."
I think microsoft tried to do something like this with COM and document embedding i.e. you could have a bit of a spreadsheet program (spreadsheet Module) embedded in a Word document etc etc.
.. but it didn't catch on so well
Similarly the Web is master of this. webpage (jscript!) mixes views onexternal databases. "the network is the computer".bringing us back to ***PHONES***.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"Unix kind of has a better approach, of pluggable units which interconnect and libraries"
- ok now you're making some sense :)
I agree. But desktop/windows/files allows easy sharing between progs
Personally I would like to see an OS built on say Javascript REPL as it's shell. (with gui over the top). Some people tried to make LISP systems like this.
The difficulty is the plethora of languages, can't avoid. Unix works well by having shell scripts pass files between C programs[...]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"Workflow on the desktop is incidental"
... well it isn't for me. For coding, you need the ability to jump between many areas of a program, search in documentation for external libraries. 2 screens was essential... until I tried a Mac with expose+spaces. 'mission-control' broke it, but gnome 3 improves by making expose for the 'current space'. I work with artists who build/animate 3d scenes, again many views on the same object..
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
At work, e-mail, MS Word, Excel, using the inventory management system, web, web based apps. ok - well all these are pretty simple uses of computers. The revolution right now is moving as may functions as possible to **PHones**, computing in your pocket, always connected, ultra-mobile, **** With the potential to make the whole concept of an OFFICE obsolete ****
e.g. Word ? - record voice instead of text. Excell? app-store allows coders to make many 'fixed function' spreadsheets
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
what ?
windows are to allow you to use multi-tasking, many documents open at once, or many views on the same large document, e.g. like being able to see several pages from a book simultaneously*
the 'old model' is where the whole computer can only run one task. (.. which phones are resurrecting incidentally, but there the idea is you have more than one screen.. tablet=primary/large, phone=secondary/small).
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
Genuinely curious: could you give me some context here - 'When I'm basically doing the EXACT the tasks the EXACT same way as 10 years ago'. what do you use computers for.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"but when you compare what a fraction of the talent could do back 20-30 years ago, with what masses can achieve, its underwhelming. "
- Suggestion: get android SDK and make android apps. Find something that you think is wasteful on the desktop and write an app to achieve the same task on a touchscreen. mobile has more revolutionary potential than desktop right now.
[this could be why desktop coders are trying to copy mobile, like a migration path].
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>" If "fun" is all its come down to,"
- yes, the graphical transitions are fun to code,so it will get done as a hobby and peeps can give it away. it's great!
>>"(thousands of progs involved)"... out of BILLIONS of people!!!
I recall a taxi driver being concerned 'society has become so apathetic that 50 people can spend 2 years making a game". But in the UK, games = 10,000 people - 00016% of the population or 1 in every 6000 workers- hardly a big waste at all, vs the fun created.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
by building a spatial asset link feature into the gui, it's available to multiple programs, user learns once. although this is probably put into IDE.
As you probably know, bigger programs do their own internal Window Management. (e.g. dev-studio provides its own tabs, tiling..)
in the Linux/Unix philosophy, it's more ideal to have several simpler/smaller programs that interact with each other: it's easier for community to fork/customize components. Hence multi-desks etc i think.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
maybe your needs aren't as intensive as mine (coding), so you don't appreciate spaces/expose?
i would like to see a gui which manages links between windows. spaces lets you do that manually. Apple are trying i.e. grouping by app. but lets say you have documents open and a file browser window that has the location they are opened from. In the zoomed out view you could link/cluster them, connect with lines perhaps. Maybe wins could show call graph. Art linked too (mesh/tex/anim..)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
and Gui's are NOT a solved problem.
it does save you time learning software (keyboard shortcuts) to have more functions triggered in a spatial, intuitive way.
I might have the win system i want (mipmap style zui?) I still haven't seen one out of the box that works exactly how i want. I definitely found expose+spaces let me do more with a smaller screen-saving physical resource. Gui helps you manage more information. (what "Information Technology" is for, funnily enough)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"I suppose it provides "jobs" and all those other rubbish arguments"
- i do think ballpark only half the jobs are actually needed, because of oil-powered machines, so it's up to people to find ways of making themselves popular to each other as opposed to doing something necessary. Hence TV,entertainment, people throwing millions at celebrities, all the other bullshit. Surely programmers practicing skills by writing Gui's aren't so bad?
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
so if you think we're just doing the same things as 20 years ago maybe you aren't looking or trying hard enough.
Mobile is a revolution in infrastructure too. Permanently connected computing will reduce the need for transport to & from offices. People and businesses who adapt to teleworking (eliminating car) will have big advantage over those who don't as we go further past peak oil ( although some think we won't be able to maintain comps, but they'll last longer than cars IMO)
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
I do see the mobile as a revolution.
Reduction in watts required to achieve a task?via fine grain production & consumption (e.g: instead of 10000 peeps using spreadsheet software to customize own calculation. 100 people write 100x1 apps tailored to 100 people's need, resulting in less energy consumption to perform that calculation, and it runs on a pocket device instead of a bulky desktop. & less need for WP because peeps communicate with recorded voice & video instead of text.
walter0bz 4 months ago
Regarding wasting labour - in the Industrial Age it only takes 2% of the workforce to feed us. We are fed by OIL, not labour. we have **technological unemployment,** so un-necassery services fill people's time. Hairdressing, serving coffee, writing GUIs, whatever. If you have a better use for peoples time, speculate, invest, take a lead..
You have volunteers using their supercomputers for folding at home trying to cure cancer. Home super-computers are side effect of demand for Gaming.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"when I'm basically doing the EXACT same tasks the EXACT same way as 10 years ago"
- there peeps trying to miniaturize this. the whole mobile app phenomenon is about doing the same tasks for less energy.
I don't know what you use computers for... but in graphics /gaming the leap is huge. I imagine for CAD/scientific simulation too, the power you can get in a common desktop is a huge step forward, e.g. run FEA on your home machine.. if you just word-process what are you expecting?
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
computers are different in SO many ways today.
google became the font of all knowledge. etc.
phones = computers becoming pocket devices. laptops.
etc etc
I'd say the industry succeeded, big time.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
It is you that is missing the point.
People will code new guis because it is fun. They code for pleasure, it's mental exercise. Thats primarily why open-source-software exists.
also, people will buy or use new guis because they like novelty.
Now none of this precludes 'folding @home', widespread use of video , 3d gaming, etc. computers are different for many reasons. GUI is the first thing you complain about? with linux you choose the GUI you like or go back to command-line.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
Why not just Tab-Bars ? They don't satisfy me as they only show window title.
When you have a source open, you are usually concerned with a specific area (source file contains many functions / declarations etc). the visual content of the window is needed.
code folding or bookmarks can help but isn't perfect. more hotkeys/buttons to remember. the best way I've encountered is *better window management*. Prior to Expose+Spaces+MUlti-TouchTrackpad, the best method was 'briefs' tiling
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
recently after using virtual desktops I recalled that microsoft/mac both removed 'z-order control', many other managers had a key for sending a window to the back of z-order (e.g. middle click or a dedicated icon). it was deemed to complicated for the mainstream. It might be the case that using that a bit more gets some of the benefits that recently were added with virtual desks i.e. ability to temporarily dismiss. but keep spatial location.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25
>>"Tablets HAVE to have a GUI like that, because of the fact they are a tablet."
-whats being revealed it's possible to improve on the whole overlapping idea. People picked overlapping windows in 1980's because they made it more visually comfortable to remember where things were - smallest movement. What changed recently is cheap 3D hardware, tech trickledown from 3D games. When you can animate transitions (e.g. zooming, panning) it's possible for tiles to work well. all in flux!
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
so to sumarise, I haven't seen the perfect tool I want, i could try & get job at MS/Apple ask them to let me try it there (unlikely), i could write 3rd party tool (iPad coder's editor?), or..I could jump on some open source- find the WM/Text-editor combo thats closest to what I want to try, modify it, and give it away. Linux/OSS is a great alternative to the market that can exist because it is so easy to copy, ideas take on life of their own , whats not to like???
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
it will take time, but I hypothesize eventually touch will yield better UI than keys+mouse - but we can't just throw the existing conventions away, (user momentum) - so they evolve. Hence the big drive in microsoft, apple, and of course linux to *do the experiments** .. For Coding, a virtual keyboard is pretty poor but guess what- all those windows are open for reference, they usually contain the words you want to type. what if reference windows could be marked AS 'keyboards'..
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 ... but it wasn't perfect, there are still tweaks that can be put in to make it better. For example, I would like to try arranging the workspaces like 'mipmaps' so you can increase the count above 2x2 and still have the recent ones visible 'large'. A program may involve 100,000 lines of code split across hundreds of source files, any help navigating is welcome. My colleagues are artists, they build scenes which may have hundreds or thousands of textures, millions of polys
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 [more] - so enter Apple with their 'Expose' and 'Spaces', which took the virtual desk feature of technical unix world and made it more comfortable for the casual user with pleasing animations (your brain is designed to track moving objects).
When I got a Mac a few months ago, I can ell you the combination of MULTI-TOUCH-TRACKPAD plus EXPOSE/SPACES was a revelation: a 1280x800 screen was letting me be as productive as 1920x1080 on PC. it became my favorite environment. [more]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
is window-management a solved problem, with consensus on how it should work ? no, there are many options. The current 'status quo' - overlapping - is on the way out, because it's been revealed as inefficient: it needs a MOUSE, when you are coding you are mostly typing: it might not sound it but shifting your right hand from screen to mouse is a jarring experience. (i recall text editor 'brief' which had very good inbuilt tiling & f1+cursor's shifted intuitively.) [more]
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
My experience coding is that more monitor/screen space is a good thing: you get 'claustrophobic' trying to remember where things are, easier to leave as much open as possible. IDE's have inbuilt navigation but you have to remember hotkeys or use tab-bars etc. more controls , more differences when you move from Mac to PC or from one language to another. The other solution is the Window Manager, simply leave things open. Virtual desks were invented as an easy way of having 'more'
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
There are people out there who simply enjoy writing code for it's own sake, because it is mental exercise, and humans - their defining characteristic vs other species being 'toolmakers' - have a natural instinct to tinker and create randomly (true invention often comes from this random sampling process).
Hence the world of open-Source, where someone came up with the idea of these random creations being given away so we can build on eachother's
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
it is true for example the Amiga OS had great mixture of fullscreen and windowed apps boasted by OSX lion but back in 1985. something like Gnome Shell is not a problem though because, it is not a commercial product. it's open source, made by voluntary donations, no one is forcing you to use it :) if you think you can improve on it, grab the source and do so. or replace it with any window manager you like.. the range of options on linux is great. Fluxbox remains my favorite
walter0bz 4 months ago
mousewheel didn't switch desktops for me, this is a must-have.
can the shell view be enabled for every screen corner? that would make it *much* better
walter0bz 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Use it for 2 weeks . Yes it sucks!
NoMemory 4 months ago
This window snapping thing (far right to fill the right half of the screen) doesn't work for me. It used to work before the Ubuntu 11.10 update.
fingerprint211b 4 months ago
Best desktop I have ever used. It's amazing.
TrinityDejavu8 4 months ago 2
I'll be honest, I've been using GNOME 3 in Ubuntu 11.10 for a while now, and... I like it. It looks fantastic and I like the way you navigate windows with full previews. Window lists just confuse me, and stuff like Windows 7's Aero Peek features make me despise normal window tabs now. I dislike how it's not as customizable as GNOME 2 or KDE, but compared to Unity, I like GNOME 3. It's different, yes, but it's pretty interesting and works for me. Haters gonna hate, I suppose. Me gusta, GNOME Team
UberSquirrelUnite 4 months ago
@UberSquirrelUnite i know right, I love gnome 3. They went in a different dirrection and i must say a better one. Who knows, maybe linux developers finaly try to gain a larger piece of market.
Avatarass 4 months ago
Thank you gnome team. For making everything we do each day extremely hard. Simplicty is key your gui is not key it is hard difficult and cluttered. This GUI is just sad especially if you are a power user. Im going to KDE. At least it is simpler.
JoelB3783 4 months ago
when maximized, they should get rid of the titlebar just like in unity, the screen top does the job of the titlebar
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
not sure I get your point.
I'm seeing advancement in low level features like programming languages & the web itself. GPGPU is a massive change (massively parallel super-computers on the desk ) that has grown in past decade. there's R&D in s/w to go with it, etc functional programming (haskell etc)
just because some guys like to make some icon/window differences, doesn't mean the other advancement isn't doing on.
walter0bz 4 months ago
@walter0bz - the rich are 100x richer
the rest of us do have great computers now at least. land maybe not, but I enjoy the gadgets today i do see them as progress and I hope they survive peak oil...
walter0bz 4 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
just curious, have you used a mac, pre-lion, the handling of multi-desktops + expose is really great. Splitting 4 desks & expose means you have instant visual multi-level window switching, e.g. keep recent things on one desk or at the top of each desk, then delve again to see more. ( a tweak I would like is same hotkey for Expose and show all desks, i.e. hit it once to show more, then hit twice to show absolutely everything). Its good all these alternate workflows exist.
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
this isn't a restrictiion , its an improvement. getting rid of screenclutter for netbooks/laptops.
titlebar+taskbar was always wasted screenspace. if you have something maximzied you dont need the title visible on both the taskbar and the titlebar. its good they're trying something new! both unity + gnome3 = 2 different directions.. choice. and you can always go back to xfce for traditional method (i like fluxbox most)
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
where multi desktops showed the way is handling of fullscreen (see Lion). Quicker to just swipe between fullscreen & window env than it is to use fidly maximize/minimize buttons. i like getting rid of wastefull screenclutter (titlebars etc) but there was no need to wait for apple's multitouch gestures, on linux you could always do this with the pointer simply scrolling off the sceen edge, or mousewheel, or hotkeys. Linux showed how it could work, apple sanitized for masses.
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
tablet/gui - how about, tablet with its simplified gui, then enable bluetooth keyboard and you get your old-school efficient command line back.. you can have both.
Yes I use minimalist environments with linux. I like setting it up for pure kb use (eg window tiling on hotkeys). i like using it with desktop enviro. To attract new users linux needs eyecandy. devs like making eyecandy for its own sake (think DemoCoders) win-win situation. Useless 'desktop cube' drew in attention
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
what?
unifying tablet/pc/desktop is not a fad. it is the future. If i can do everything on my phone/tablet that my laptop could then I can ditch my laptop. In near future display tech will advance to headsets ("eye-phones") - so you just carry phone,glasses,kb. Seems like you are just looking in the rear-view mirror? Peak oil may mean no more mains electricity.. advantages of desktop wiped out. See 3rd world (mobile = instant infrastructure) for glimpse of peakoil changes
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
"tablet pc's limited' - but they needn't be. apple have introduced them that way. Linux has always excelled at getting the most of lesser hardware, but in this case its' superior computing Per WATT, via ARM... hugely important in future. Linux can and should be showing the way: an energy efficient phone can be built into a complete computer. Look at motorola atrix limited 'webtop' hint. or braben 'rasperi pi'. peak oil needs energy efficiency.
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
fair points, but I think linux devs do probably feel pressured to 'prove' linux can do anything osx or windows can. r.e. 'forefront', linux had multiple desktops before mac osx i think? there is an opportunity for a linux to work well on both Phone, Tablet and Desktop.. its a perfect arena for an open-source experimenter. Whats win8 really, just a launcher tile grid and tile menus.. linux can do that easy. I'm 100% with you about linux being about customizablity and choice though!
walter0bz 5 months ago
I've been playing around with GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 and can't understand the backlash against it - it's awesome! The fastest way to launch any app in my opinion. I will be using this in Ubuntu 11.10 instead of Unity. Good job Gnome team!
rubeszilla 5 months ago
i would change it so the workspaces are always visible like on the mac. i do prefer this current behaviour to mission-control though. (I dont like mission-control app-bundles)
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
No. Minimize/Maximize buttons are un-necasery screen clutter. (as are Title Bars!!!)
the drag idea is better.
Use a hotkey if you are a power user. or double click.
or better still, use a tiling WM which always devotes entire screenspace to whats open. Overlapping WM's are an anachronism designed before computers could easily shift & scale images with 3D hardware, they are a mess. what use is an L shaped crop? either show the whole thing, or a thumbnail.
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
the old style menus-with-titlebars and definitely windows-copy drop-menus were never good.. the latter very ugly and wasteful on screenspace. I'd like to see tiled WM's more on these UI reworks. microsoft has it right with the 'drag other window onto side creating tiled layout' idea. Combined with Expose it would rock. Overlapping windows were solution to past era when you couldn't scale things, its completely obselete and wastes user time
walter0bz 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 -
but such users can just use Fluxbox or whatever. Its' absolutely the right way to go to give new users options like this: also linux MUST keep up with the touchscreen 'fad' - phones/tablets/computers are all becoming one and the same, and its a good thing - linux should be there at the forefront.
a touch UI could theoretically be faster than mouse+keyboard for people who dont learn the legacy QWERTY layout :) .. also some of these UIs are good with kb (visually teach launch chords)
walter0bz 5 months ago
Nice cell phone. What have you got for a computer?
omgitsmikegravel 5 months ago
@omgitsmikegravel - I absolutely want my cellphone and computer to be one and the same thing. I want the same machine to show a UI which adapts and works well regardless if its on my pocket device or if I plug it into a bigger screen and use that pocket device as a remote. with computers being 'fast enough' for most users/uses they should be miniaturized until they fit in a watch
walter0bz 5 months ago
Comment removed
omgitsmikegravel 5 months ago
I'm sticking with gnome 2.
grimtendo 5 months ago
@BoraxMan25 what do you think the world is full of? :-)
djdtahoe 5 months ago
windows copycats :P
Nachoman990 5 months ago
And stop saying GNOME 3 looks like MacOS or anything, I'm sick of people saying this or that or [insert name here] looks like MacOS or iOS. Does this has anything similar to Mac? It has taskbar and icons?
If you ask, I will say GNOME 3 uses a lot of UI concepts from WebOS and a bit from Android Honeycomb. And that is not a bad thing, that is the whole idea of open source where ideas can be reused and make better things, right? I don't think the folks at HP/Palm and Google are unhappy with that.
TrinhThanhTrung 5 months ago
I have been using GNOME 3 for a while and I must say it is great! Its design is very intelligent and most things you can do with the least interaction possible. It is a bit unstable for now, but I believe they can fix it soon.
It may be a little unfamiliar at first, but isn't it the same when you switch from Windows to Linux or Mac or vice versa? When you're getting used to it you will surely love that.
TrinhThanhTrung 5 months ago
I tried watching this Youtube video but it kept pausing because of all the useless bloat.
CallOnYahweh 5 months ago
Gnome 3 looks like shit. Somebody please fork Gnome 2 and continue development.
acf2802 5 months ago
"in gnome three, durka durka durka"...
"in gnome three, derp dee derp..."
"in gnome three, wakka doodle derpa sherpa..."
Stop saying "in gnome 3"!
dmauas 5 months ago
Does this guy have shoulders?
Speclst 5 months ago
It may all look fine with five applications, but users tend to use more applications than than that. With Gnome lately, it's all about extra-credit but no work. It's all flash in the pan, and no substance. Gnome, as a desktop GUI is ruined. Gnome is too fat to put on a tablet, and so Gnome made a pigeon-rat; it can't fly, and it can't fit hide in the hole.
I cannot believe this was approved. Gnome's leadership needs to be impeached!!! I was a former supporter of Gnome.
BrendaEM 6 months ago
it looks like a shitty version of Mac mixed with Android.
debuggernigger 6 months ago
Comment removed
duane2072 6 months ago
It took Linux community 10 years to bring in a couple of new features.... pathetic...
Avatarass 6 months ago
@Avatarass 10 years? Ver. 3 shell was introduced in 2005. That is 6 years. If ya dont like it, leave it for Windows or what ever other one you want. That is the neat thing about Linux, your not tied to it.
duane2072 6 months ago
@duane2072 withiout paying for my Windows 7 neither am I. Linux community has been taking baby steps forever now. The fact that its free is not enough for users to close their eyes on all that crapware Linux has to offer.
Avatarass 6 months ago
@Avatarass Windows doesnt have crap ware? I can show you tons of it. Windows is taking baby steps. Win 3.1 to Win 95, the biggest GUI change through all of this. Then Fat16 to Fat32 then to NTFS filing system. Nothing has changed much here since Win 95 in the GUI. Moving stuff and rounding corners dont count. I dont see anything else changing as far as that goes either. All the same since Win 95 except fileing system. Big whoop, not very stable if ya ask me and that is a fact.
duane2072 6 months ago
Respond to this video... Everyone says Linux is copying stuff. Really, show me where. This has been in the works since 2005. Windows 7 was released in 2009. I definitely dont recall Win 95 or 98 having such capabilities of compiz which in turn comes all the way from the mid 90's. Open Suse had cube. XP did Brico pack (barely) to compete with it. Vista was just garbage from the get go. Are they really that ashamed of Windows to make such claims because they werent first at something?
duane2072 6 months ago
@Avatarass The GNOME project is known for being slow to change, it has always been this way. That's just GNOME though.
You can't just group GNOME with all other Linux projects. Linux is a completely separate project from GNOME , and it's constantly being updated. GNOME is also just one of many desktop environments. KDE is another desktop environment like GNOME, and it had many features that ended up in MS Win7 years before Microsoft even released Win7.
totakeke 6 months ago