An additional scenario is the increased divorce rates in the United States. We say, "Wow divorce rates are up that is really unfortunate," but to follow the same consistent argument, we must say divorce is good. Divorce allows for two times the expenditure on housing, utilities perhaps, furnishings, etc... This perverse though could not be further from the reality of the world. Society's well being is significantly less.
This makes me think of the old commercial where the guy would say, "we are the price busters", right as he puts a sledge hammer through a television set. now deep down in my heart of hearts I know that trashing a tv set didn't do his profit loss statement any good, but there are people out there who would rush out to buy a tv from the price buster.
when there is any disaster, there must be rebuilding. Rebuilding involves taking out loans (helping banks) and creating jobs (helping me and you) . So in the short run it is good. 9/11 caused two wars. Killing people is wrong, but economically it makes the banks and workers (lesser so) alot of money.
The economy is bad because too little people hold too much of the "wealth" or stuff we put wealth into (dollars)
If rich people spent money like crazy, then that would be okay. But when rich people hoard money, it's bad for everybody, even them. What will rich people buy when too many businesses fail? Money will be worthless if everything collapses...
@sdkee OR they are the dumbasses... the do it to keep themselves in power and control... but when everything collapses, they won't have anybody to control anymore
@shadesters There is no such thing as hoarding. They can only invest or spend. Even if they save it in a bank, which there is every incentive to do so, it is still lowering interest rates for the ordinary people to get educational loans, consumer loans, cars, and mortgages. Granted we are in a free economy that grows by saving and producing rather than borrowing and consuming.
@AroundSun You would be right, if the banks were still lending, which they really aren't... I am not saying we need to go socialist or fall, but we need some improvements... like more taxes for the rich and less kickbacks for CEOs of failing businesses... it was the high variable interest rates and bad lending that helped fuel the latest mortgage crisis, and then we bailed the banks out, and they still give their CEOs millions in bonuses? Only in America can you reward failure...
@shadesters Bailouts are a form of fascism and corporate socialism. Capitalism is not to blame, the federal reserve central bank and the cushy relationships between big business and Washington are to blame for every economic problem we face today.
@AroundSun True, but those relationships are pretty much set in concrete, and we can't sever their ties, because the people in power keep everything the way they want it, regardless of what the people want, even though government is supposed to be for the people... We need a good flushing out of government, and I don't see that happening anytime soon... people will always wait until it's too late... when will it be too late this time? When unemployment hits 20%?
@AroundSun If anything the bailouts goes to show that the corps are completely hypocritical when it comes to economic models. Normally they'd say that socialism won't help any form of economy and that pure capitalism is the way to go, but when socialism can help them in a time of need it's only the right thing to do.
@Squiglypig Of course, who isn't going to take free money? But ask yourself, who is giving it away! Who is opening up the treasury doors to these people? THE POLITICIANS! Why do they do this? Because they are bribed and lobbied!!
True but there may be a temporary advantage where funds which would have been saved are spent. All you are doing is converting future consumption (savings) into present consumption. It's arbitrage through time.
@patrickcorliss If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that by destroying something, you are forcing the spending of money that would otherwise be saved? Is it possible that people need to save up to buy better stuff and forcing them to fix damage keeps them from buying that bigger item?
Would you consider breaking your window so you would be forced to spend your money to fix it?
What I am saying is that I've fot a few thousand dollars in the bank. Let's say "saved for a rainy day". Then I have a car accident. I am more-or-less compelled to fix my car. So I spend the money. Of course, it's not what I would have wanted. Nor would I advocate smashing cars.
But that's not to deny that there is an economic effect viz a conversion from savings to consumption.
In other words, it is bringing forward to the present what was deferred.
@patrickcorliss Okay. So you do recognize that is a bad way using savings. Spending money to buy new stuff is always better than spending money to fix broken stuff.
You said "Spending money to buy new stuff is always better than spending money to fix broken stuff".
My view is that you are confusing the issue by talking about what's "better". From a Keynesian viewpoint you can stimulate the economy by digging up holes and filling them in again. But that's nonsense.
I didn't say that war is "good for the conomy". I said that it "has an economic effect". My own view is that the economic effect is "better" facilitated by building hospitals.
You ask "What's the point?" when I'm saying that it's true that you can stimulate the economy. If you like, there is an economic question and a political question which are different.
Politicians need to argue about how to do this stuff rather than argue about the economics of it. My own view is that economics should be a science so that politicians don't manipulate the math. I know that's a folorn hope as you only need to look at evolution or climate change to see that.
@patrickcorliss I assure you, war is not good for the economy either. In fact, many wars were lost because one side simply ran out of funds. If you are fighting for your life and the life of your family, but the country whose army you are in runs out of funds because you are off fighting rather than working, it makes you think, "Maybe we should have SAVED a bit more. Now my family is going to die too."
If a broken window can stimulate an economy lets give all the kids in town some rocks, they'll know what to do. If war can stimulate an economy why don't all the nations of the world pick some neutral ground and go have a fake war. You could have a war ten times the size of WW2 and nobody even needs to die, we'd all be rich!
That's ridiculous. Comparing a silly story about a broken window in a pre-industrial age village to a gargantuan economy like the modern USA is absurd. WW2 did change the US economy in a monumental way - it created the US military budget that still to this day is greater than the military budget of the next 15 other countries combined.
This argument does not consider technological unemployment, and the fact that since the industrial revolution, the workers can not afford to buy back the goods produced. A condition that did not exist during Bastiat's time. Destruction does not create wealth, it can not, but it can get people to work in an insane socioeconomic system.
You're essentially committing the same fallacy, but in reverse. Having an immensely greater supply of capital goods relative to labor is what makes us so much wealthier than people of the past. It doesn't put us out of work, it makes our work more productive, and raises our standard of living. The labor-time it would have taken you to afford food and clothing in the days before industrialization was much longer than it now takes you to earn computers, cell-phones, refrigerators, etc.
@JesseForgione technological unemployment is a real thing. Destruction of real resources is from an empirical, real world perspective always detrimental - I agree with that. However, our economic system of capitalism is a game, that doesn't not relate well to the real world - for instance sick and dying people in hospitals create jobs and raise GDP and makes jobs. From the perspective of the capitalistic game, destruction gives jobs, that had been displaced to to technological unemployment.
yeah but at the same time he gave work to a glass maker and the glass installer... who are probably town's people as well, who needs to put food on the table. Who cares if some store owner couldn't afford to buy a new fancy suit? And I bet ya the suit maker wasn't gonna suffer from missing one sale. Either way you actually look at it some one was gonna lose work wether it was the glass maker or the suit maker.
this is so painfully obvious it shouldnt even have to be said, but unfortunately it does. I think what people often mean when they say things like that is if benefits the parts of the economy that they are somehow involved with
This is an over simplistic view that economics so often does. The opportunity cost for the baker is passed on to the glass maker. Who now can buy the suit. Otherwise the glass maker would never been able to buy the suit. And because of the broken window, the baker now invests in insurance as well. The insurance company just gained. You see, it depends who had the destruction. WW2, we had practically no destruction, Europe and Asia was in ashes. Who benefited?
Mainstream, Keynesian economics commits the broken window fallacy, right?
Paul Krugman said recently that WWII spending got us out of the Great Depression and that a fake alien invasion that would make everyone put inflation and budget deficits as secondary issues to the impending purported attack, then the resulting production in preparation for the supposed space alien attack would be "fiscal stimulus" to get us out of the slump we are in. Is this not as absurd as it sounds intuitively? BWF?
@WelcometotheUnknown He also just said that "People on twitter might be joking, but in all seriousness, we would see a bigger boost in spending and hence economic growth if the earthquake had done more damage." His economic theory rests on earthquakes and space aliens.
World War 2 meant a huge surge of economic acticity in the US and after the war, the major industrial competitors to the US were bombed back to the Stoneage - Japan and Germany, namely. So yes, the war did indeed pull the US out of the Great Depression. Don't let this oversimplified Bastiat methaphor fool you..
@Bubbaz001 Nonsense. If you count as "economic activity" building bombs and killing people with them, you are right. If you mean adding wealth and improving life, you are completely wrong. Everything during the war was worse... less meat, more accidents, rationing, shortages, etc. The depression didn't end until after WWII was over & war contracts cancelled. See Robert Higgs in Jrnl of EconHistory and in book "Depression, War, and Cold War: Challenging the Myths of Conflict and Prosperity"
@fairman1952 See, the thing is the child broke the glass so he has to pay for it. What is the difference if the glass maker makes money or the baker. What if the baker is buying a new suit because someone ripped his old one. Using this broken window fallcy is too simpleminded to expalin complicated situations. I don't buy it, Sorry.
@drewm4355 Money is not wealth. Money is a means of exchange. If I have $100,000,000 in dollar bills in the middle of the desert, but not a glass of water to keep me alive, I am not wealthy. (And printing money, like in Zimbabwe, doesn't make you richer; you have more money, but can't buy more stuff.) If you break a window, there is *less wealth.* Money may move from tailor to baker, but wealth was still destroyed. The tornado in Joplin made people poorer; it was not "good for the economy"
@TheTomGPalmer Tom, I am not an economist. but to humor me, here goes. The economy is poor in Joplin. No one is buying anything. No money, no jobs. Tornado hits. Now things have to be replaced, rebuilt. money has to be spent and that money is making the blders rich so they can afford to buy a car,giving jobs to auto mnfrs, glass mkrs, tire mkrs, gas stations,etc. So where is the money coming from?Taxes, insurance..Taxes comes from income and income comes from working. Someone is producing.
@drewm4355 It depends what you define as money.....what the people in Joplin will use as a means of exchange will ultimately be used as money because it is perceived as being of value from the same people. But the money used to rebuilt in your case has to come from some sort of savings, if there is no money in the economy initially and no jobs there isnt much the tornado will destroy so you are back to square one....
@drewm4355 Money is not wealth; it is a means of exchange. The village is poorer by one suit. Breaking stuff and having it fixed moves money around, but it means less wealth available to be enjoyed.
@TheTomGPalmer See, the thing is the child broke the glass so he has to pay for it. What is the difference if the glass maker makes money or the baker. What if the baker is buying a new suit because someone ripped his old one. Using this broken window fallcy is too simpleminded to expalin complicated situations. I don't buy it, Sorry.
The real question u must ask to determine the health of an economy is how many goods & services are available to the individual in the marketplace? not the govt- the individual. War machines, bombs, suicidal soldiers- all these things are not consumer goods. Nor are they essentially capital goods. War machines, bombs & soldiers sent out to die are destructive not productive
Since I never said Bastiat argued for a positive GDP impact (and since despite what you say about his position, GDP was not a measure that even existed in his time) I can only underscore my previous point.
The video, however, is an argument against the case for positive GDP impact- my post agreed with this position to a point. But the substitution argument relies on "all things being equal" and after a system shock like 9/11 that is simply a dumb assumption to make.
@100CommonCents All economics overlooks things because the field is entirely based on simplified models. Suggest you move up from the kindergarden stuff and study economics that is based on actual evidence. Economic convictions held on pure faith are religion, not science.
It's just another lie they push on you to make you feel good about their false flags and illegal wars. It's like they tell you it's actually good to take away your rights & freedoms because it will make you safer. Just as the broken window actually costs the community & citizen/owner of the bakeshop so too does the state's destruction of your freedom since as everyone knows and history shows you're in more danger when you're not free and when the state in particular, takes your freedom from you.
@malthust..I agree. I think we need to consider that in the case of WW2, for example, productivity increased and the workforce grew ie. (women) to build the war machine. Bastiat does not take into account fundamental changes in the economy that may result from disaster.
@1haochi Heck, we don't need a WW to put everybody to work. Get some shovels and get everybody digging holes, then filling them in again. It's less destructive than bombing folks, but everyone's happily at work -- full employment, right? The point that you fail to grasp and all Keynesians is that mere statistics do not make productivity. Just as printing gobs of paper or virtual dollars, enough to make everyone a millionaire, does nothing to create actual prosperity.
ok. you haven't read Bastiats works. productivity in no sense of the word increased during WWII. It really makes absolutely no sense to say such a thing. If it were true, that the 'war' is good for the whole country & the whole economy, then what u are sayin is that by sending virtually ALL the young able bodied men & college kids over seas to die- that will stimulate the economy?
Sure, everyday destruction (like the Baker's window) does not have (much of) a net positive GDP impact- though it is not hard to argue that, in reality satiety is possible and we would demand less in total in a world where nothing broke or became obsolete. But something on the scale of 9/11 has a STRUCTURAL impact on the economy, impacting net savings, productivity, velocity of money, innovation etc. These shift is what Krugman is referencing.
Being creative and innovative benefits all of us. Louiethegimp down there is typing on his computer, wearing his gimp mask and ball gag, all created by those seeking to make a profit. Which is the benefit to him. He can have his fetish and type on a marvelous invention (his dell) and enjoy his life. While someone invented them to pursue their happiness (the yacht) he is ill so he can't see this. He gets spanked too as he bounces back and forth from youtube to porn. He wants us to live like Cuba
Wow, bet you picked up all that gimp mask stuff in those gay bars you play that made in China guitar in. Probably those drag queens really dig you in your drag queen leotards, and tank top. Bet you take your pay out in trade don't you. Actually that is the only place that will allow you to strum the guitar and yoddle. Bet you really enjoy the nite life with those fags, you are progably fat and homley, and have been rejected by the gals so you turned your affection to the ferryguys like yourself
@louiethegreater Hey louiethegimp, I realized something. You do not know anything about the founding fathers do you? There was NO such thing as protectionist capitalism. EVER! In our first 100 years there was absolutely NO regulation on free markets. That is the one thing Jefferson had assured American entrepreneurs of. You do not even have your history correct. And no. I have no problems with women. Never had. Put your gimp mask and ball gag in and go somewhere else.
@SuperGuitarman69 Wrong supergaybe69, the country was founded on protectionist capitalism. I recieved some PMs about you, most agree that you are one of those drag queen huzzies, that plays and yoddles in those Nashville gay bars. It was pointed out to me that the 69 is a message to those drag queen momas you adore. Heard you moved to Nashville from LA to enjoy the Drag Queen nitelife, yep I knew you got that sado lifestyle from first hand expierience.
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence which was resounding endorsed by the founding fathers. If that means your happiness is sailing around the world in a 2 million dollar yacht, then you must earn money. Which means you can either be creative and innovative or rob people. Which is why we have courts. If CEO's make millions of dollars that is between their shareholders and the company. Not myself, nor government or certainly not Louiethegimp P1
@SuperGuitarman69 Wrong again it is the responsabilty of government to protect the interest of citizens. The concentration of wealth could not have occured if the protectionist capitalism the founders established would not have been replaced by laissez faire capitalism. You are just not aware enough of your surrounding to know that, air heads do miss alot of the activity they in their surroundings.
I beleive college professors are all that believe that broken window fallacy, and of course the austrin economics crowd. Normal people; who have not sit in the classroom and allowed all common sense to be trained out of them, do not believe--- or even think of such stupidity.
@louiethegreater The broken window fallacy has been proven over and over again. Destruction does not bring about economic growth. It merely moves money around and focuses it on one or two industries. Which in turn doesn't make an economy grow in the least. It is simple to understand. I am amazed at how many leftist still cannot do basic math.
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey, I didn't say I didn't understand it, I just said it is just to stupid to give much thought to. If you want to treat something so elementary as some kind of guru wisdom go ahead. Most americans understand the forces that destroyed our economy. When the country moved away from Protectionist Capitalism, to the economy destroying Laissez- faire Capitalism---- that is what transfured our GDP to China, and gave Communism the wealth to dominate that region of the world.
@louiethegreater Protectionism to laissez-faire? Lol, okay. Yeah our founding fathers set up protectionism. Oh boy, no wonder we are in a mess. Leftist Americans do not know basic history. Or worse they are re writing it.
@SuperGuitarman69 Yes, the founders used tariffs to protect domestic industris. If you are not aware of that, than you are the one in need of learning history. Tariffs are the fairest of all taxes, we only pay them when we buy imported goods, and they tax foreign businesses that use our economy. The concept of protective tariffs the founders did understand and implemented fully, into the structure of our economy. That served us well for 200 years, than the gloalization crowd bought Washington.
@louiethegreater No you are taking about port trade tariffs. It is a common mistake from non economists. The Smoot Hawley act is more appropriate to what you condone. And no, it killed American business. So many mistakes were made in the 30's that I can't hardly type long enough to point them all out, and why they were HUGE mistakes. 100 years later and we are still paying for all of that. Free trade HELPS our country, not hurts us. We trade our products with the world to our benefit p1
@SuperGuitarman69 No, I am talking about protective tariffs. The substance of Amercas early development, and created a country that has been the envy of the world. Tariffs and labor unions created the american middleclass. Laissez Faire Capitalism had nearly destroyed that middleclass in one generation. If you would read these books you would slowly overcome the brainwashing you have recieved. " Free Trade, Protectionism and the Founding Fathers" by Ed Bowlin, "Bad Samaritans" by Ha-Joon Chang
@louiethegreater Oh my god there is no end to you is there? I'm not even going to get into this with you. There is verifiable history and facts. You are going to use Ed Bowlin? Are you kidding me?
@louiethegreater No, no you do not. You are pretty much a tyrant. You are for tyranny. You think that government is the answer to everything. While every last problem we have faced in the last 200+ years of this country can be traced to government intervention. Legislation AFTER the constitution has overreached it's bounds. We have a government that everyday makes new laws that take away yet another freedom to an individual, or a law that stifles a business. You are on the side of tyranny. P1
@SuperGuitarman69 Yes, Yes I do. The constitution gave congress the right to regulate trade. Of course your crawd gave trade negotiators authority to negotiate free trade agreements and shut congress competely out the process. Then through the use of Fast Track Authority limited Congress to a up or down vote. GATT and the WTO has completely relieved congress of their responsability to the constitution. You love the fact that american workers are forced to compete with cheap third world labor.
@louiethegreater stopped. So you want the wonderful flower of government to regulate our rights. Tell us what to buy, sell, drink, eat, sleep. What we can and cannot have (like the 100 watt light bulb) (eye roll). You side with politicians who get in bed with corporations who pay them enormous sums of money TO SET REGULATION, that keeps other companies from competing. You get in bed with these politicians with your vote. Which hurts America and ultimately the individual who pays higher P3
@louiethegreater Why do we have the Federal Reserve? The Federal Reserve is the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, JP Morgans. ALL DEMOCRATS. They make bazillions of dollars by coming up with ponzi schemes through regulations. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare etc... Government borrows money to pay these bankrupt programs. They get involved with industries like education and healthcare and that drives up prices. Look up the rate of college tuition and healthcare costs before government involvment. P5
@louiethegreater Guess who the top 1% are? Banking elitists. Kind of kills your argument doesn't it. Be careful with facts they are dangerous. Sure you have Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs etc... But they are by FAR not the richest. And your comment on the Fed? Oh boy are you now going to be hated. This country is turning on the Fed more and more everyday. Why? Because it is a criminal organization. People are now learning this. Because we were hoodwinked? LMAO It is A SCAM!!!!!!!!!
@SuperGuitarman69 Why would the top 1% being baking elitist destroy any argument is am making. Even if it were true. Those americans investing in cheap asian labor are the people making the disproportionate incomes. Those bakers are only a handfull of families, globally. They are part of that 1%, but not all of it. Hey I would love to see the end of the Fed. That is why I gave you the assignment of ending it, a bright Washington graduate like yourself, that really know his history,and economics
@louiethegreater and led to the unconstitutional Federal Reserve act. You forget, I have a degree in economics. There is no 2 sides to this. It is facts against revision. I have no idea how old you are my guess is you are young. How does NWO get ushered in? By America collapsing. How does it collapse? Not militarily, but by the dollar collapsing. How do you collapse the dollar. Simply put 2 ways. Massive debt and printing money to cover it creating more debt. How do you create debt? Set up..
@SuperGuitarma I am amazed that you have a degree in economics. One would never know! We could continue past page one if you had a few more of those facts. Our economy is being destroyed by deindustrialization of the country, and the race to the bottom. When Laissez- Faire Capitalism replaced Protectionist Capialism, corporations knew they could use third world cheap labor to manufacture, and ship the products back to the U.S. without threat of tariffs, entitlements has nothing to do with it.
@louiethegreater First of all. Ask the Chinese workers if he minds working for the American company. He doesn't. It's that, work in a field for a 1/4 of the money, or starve. You are wrong in so many ways. I am arguing with someone who is in the minority. Most people know this. And it was more than the housing bubble. It is way deeper than that. What you are wanting to adopt WILL LEAD to the end of our economy. But, that is no mind. You will not succeed. Those like you have ran your mouth P1
@Supe So you a loyal american, don't mind creating unemployment for millions of ameicans, so that Chinese can have jobs. Is that right!!! Wow--- glad you don't really dislike your countrymen. You support China offering their peasant population to multinationals as cheap labor, while the ruling class of China makes massive profits from foreign investment. The ratio on wages is 47/1 not 4/1 does most people know that. Tariffs will lead to the salvation of our economy, not the distruction.
@louiethegreater went in. The area is a million times nicer than what the city officials wanted to do with it with the Nashville tax payers money. If they had not had us to convince them to leave it to the market and the investors that wanted to renovate and build? NONE of that would have happened. How much did I make off that? ZERO! I and the others did it for the city. Now we have tax revenue and a great new area to frequent. If left to the government? Subsidized housing was the goal. So....
@SuperGuitarman69 Heres the facts, of what you are, in spite of what you think of yourself. You are first of all a traitor to your own country and countrymen. You would gladly trade in your american citizenship for a global one. You would gladly give your own countrymens jobs in manufacturing to the third world, and then attack them for going to the government for assistance. You support walmart business models, who drive oursurcing and the race to the bottom. You are totally ignorant to history
@louiethegreater I swear, I run into people like you and I'm just baffled at it. I'll be honest. I know you want to bring this country down. I know you want to see the constitution abolished and everything we stand for go to a NWO alliance, but just say it outloud. Be proud if that is your goal. Don't hide it. But do not insult history or this country by actually lying and being a historical revisionist. Just come clean. Because you cannot win the debate on economics. PERIOD> It only shows lies
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey you are the gloalist, neo-liberal here not me. I support the country, and my own countrymen. You have on problem at all in sending your own countrymen's jobs to the third world. You would gladly trade in your american citizenship for a global one. I support the U.S. and do not want to see her incorporated into another EU. I also support an accurate interpretation of ameican history, Von Mises does not!
@louiethegreater Why are American businesses going to China? You say = Cheap Labor WRONG = Regulation and the 2nd highest corporate taxation in the world. Why was the Federal Reserve Act passed into law? You say= To stabilize the economy WRONG= it was set up on Dec 24 1913 in the shadows, to promote JP Morgan, Rockefellers, and Rothschilds in a scheme to pillage the American people through debt. In 1907 a rumor stated that the bank of New York was insolvent. That rumor was started by JP Morgan
@SuperGuitarman69 Multinationals can hire 47 Chinese for one american. That is why corporations are going to China. They also have no envorometna regulation, no worker protections, and no health and safety standards. They also have forced labor camps. If you don't like regulation I hope someone builds a pig farm next door to you, and dumps the waste products into your drinking water. That would serve you right. Hey I am on your side concerning the Fed, all that is needed is to end it.
@louiethegreater massive entitlements, government pension promises, wars etc... Now what out of those did our constitution mandate? National security, that's ALL. So to take down the country you have to print the money to pay for the entitlements. Appropriated spending through amendments. I and others have warned and warned. We have called every bubble and bust, we have been correct 100% of the time. Luckily for this country you are in the minority and they are finally listening.
@Su You have warned and warned, That is comedy. You have been correct about what? The country has been deindustrialized to the point we are no longer sustainable, here is not enough taxable manufacturing to sustain the economy. So you called the housing bubble; right--- how funny--- I have been associated with the building trades all my life, and everyone, and I do mean everyone, even to the lowleyest laborer, knew that housing, private and commercial was a bubble.The dark ages at your house.
@louiethegreater for ages. While those like me have only started recently. We are to busy living our lives. Not the left. They organize, pay people to show up at demonstrations etc... They own Hollywood, TV, News, Papers and inspite of all of that the opposition still manages to win elections. Why? Because people have math skills and instinct and can tell when they are being duped. And yes everything you are saying has been proven time and time again to be false. Keynes (who was crammed down.P2
You are living a theory as if it were fact. Austrin economics is a theory not a science. I voted for Chuck Baldwin the last election cycle. That is the Constitutonal Party, does that sound lefty to you. You are a globalist you hold no loyalties to any country. Most ameicans know that free trade does not work. Some other reading suggestions for you " Free Trade Doesn't Work" by Ian Fletcher, also read " The Myths of Free Trade" by Sherrod Brown. reading these will offset the brainwashing.
@louiethegreater Ian Fletcher? No wonder you are totally messed up. Just so you know, I am on a board of 4 economic advisers in my city. I put a stop to the city spending massive tax dollars on subsidized housing. We took out government in control of a run down industrial area in Nashville and got them to relax taxes and regulation so they could fix and add additions. Over 300 jobs were created and 2 condo highrises went in at a base price of 125k each. Every last one was sold. 17 businessesP1
@SuperGuitarman69 Even though you told me I still don't know. Sounds like you have a lot of fantasies that you live out over the internet. I would say the only board you are a member of is the parole board. I know you have said a lot but heres what I believe, I don't believe you are a graduate of Wahington Univestity, I don't believe you have a degree in economics. I would guess that you are a guitar player that occasionally preforms for wages. Anyone that toots their own horn like you do, lies.
@louiethegreater market forces. And before you take your economic advice from a Victorian Literature expert you might want to trust those that are outside of government. We actually know. We haven't been bought by spending politicians. You in private, will never hear any economists singing the praises of stimulus or the Keynesian philosophy. It is widely known it is the left and their policies that keeps the system going to make bankers richer with fake money!!
@Supe Did you say WE KNOW. It should be apparant that Laissez-faire Capitalism does not work, free traders have destroyed the country in less than a generation. Since the late 60s globalization, and neo-liberal philosophy has completely destroyed our economy. All one would have to do is look at Japan and it should be apparant what a generation of protectionism can do for an economy. Japan dilligently protected her economy while we gave free access to every piece of over manufactured goods.
@louiethegreater Ok. Now I know you are completely nuts. You listen to me very closely now. I accepted your I do not support the Federal Reserve and I believed you and I did drop it. Now I need you to listen to me very closely here. We have not had free market capitalism since 1933. And in the 20's we had the Federal Reserve printing money and purposely creating a bubble to create the crash. Laissez-faire capitalism has not existed for over 70 years. In the 1800's we did. Not in the 20th century
@SupeHow could you get things so wrong. Was you born under a tub, or just close to one. The US economics were protectionist capitalism untill the late 1960s, then---- globalization was sold to Washington, since then deindustrializaton has been the objective of globalization. Of course the fantasy of conversion to a service economy was sold to the folks stupid enough to believe it, (that be you). Now economist open admit that has failed, by the way the same economist who bought service economy.
@louiethegreater . In the 1930s, lawmakers believed that unregulated business often led to injustice and inefficiency; in the 1960s and 1970s, concern shifted to regulatory capture, which led to extremely detailed laws creating the Environmental Protection Administration and Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Agencies and regulatory laws have slowed the growth of business and granted protection to businesses. There was MORE bureaucracy created not less. I remember you now.
@SuperGuitarman69 So now that you have visited Wikipedia and actually learned there was a EPA, and a OSHA now you are going to act brilliant and explain them to me. Actually I already am aware they exist and am aware of their function. Now that you have written your post in the shock that something like that actually exist in the U.S. what about them. Do we need to portect the enviroment from those manufacturers who don't mind poisoning the enviroment, even if they are in China.
@louiethegreater Let's take the most hated by leftist enterprise in America. Walmart. Now in your world I am going to give a headline that would make your willy perk up. Today the corporate Juggernaut Walmart was forced to close it's doors due to the crimes against humanity in the United States and abroad. louiethegreater wrote the legislation that finally took Walmart down. Pelosi, Reid. louiethegreater and President Obama were at the signing. Now in that world. Tell me the advantages to it?
@SuperGuitarman69 First of all Reid, Pelosi, and Obama are your allies, not mine, I voted for Chuck Baldwin of the Constitutional Party whom you probably never heard of. Now race to their Web Page, and carm as much information as you as quick as you can, so you will appear to have some idea what Mr. Baldwin represents. Reid, Pelosi, Obama does not repersent any of my political ideology. However they do yours, they are all free traders, which puts them in your camp not mine. end of 1
@louiethegreater came isn't even a valid argument. That is a fallacy that has been completely contrived. So what you are looking at is massive unemployment. So the result? Massive people appearing on the government doles. You are looking now at raising taxes on the smaller businesses that this new move is to supposedly help. Businesses that pay the SAME EXACT TAX RATE AS WALMART CURRENTLY. This will lead in premature closing of businesses that were living in an equilibrium current to Walmart
@louiethegreater There was a blog on you. Some that were a lot more moderate than I had discussed you and the falsity in your statements. I just re read all of that.
@louiethegreater FletchforFreedom copied all of your debates and where you get your sources from. It makes complete sense now why you are so off on everything. It's okay most people know better my friend. I think that you need to not debate. You can try to influence those who know nothing about politics or economics. You probably can convince them. But certainly not someone who knows the facts. That is why I have been confused by your comments.
@SuperGuitarman69 I would say fletch wrote that novel about me, to influence unthinging people (that be you)
He is a corporate owned lap dog who takes the party line. His goal is to convince unthinking people (like you) members of his mindless brigade of austrin troops. They (that be you) follow in lock step behind fletch the fearless singing his praises. You are a prime candidate for the exercise, so all you need to do is go cuddle up to him and hang on his every word. Jump up on his lap and
@louiethegreater No we are former (stop at your forehead) thinking liberals who actually learned something. Everything you said is a contradiction. First there was no regulation. Then you praise regulation through OSHA and the EPA. Which cost several million jobs but that is another debate. Now, I have a question to pose for you. I can prove my point and be done. Next post is the question in full.
@Super 2 My views an government responsibility is simple. Government should strive toward full employment for its citizens. After that is accomplished, and all citizens that want a job has one. All social benefits should be ended. Tariffs on foreign imports will protect domestic industries while they offer jobs to citizens. That is Protectionist Capitalism as the founders intended it to work. No one, not you or your hero fletch can produce a more perfect plan, without of course so fantasies.
@louiethegreater ment in the unemployed. This would NOT recover with the opening of other businesses. Walmart employs literally entire communities in some cases. That before Walmart established a store in their communities there was NO employment in the first place. So the fallacy that those who know NOTHING about economics try to imply about the mom and pop stores dominating before Walmart came is BS completely. The few that did close as compared to those that had nothing before Walmart
@SuperGuitarman69 Don't attempt to tell me you mom and pop stores didn't exist, I remember when there was am mom and pop store on just about every corner, in every neighborhood. Families lived off the incomes of operating those stores. Wallmart, and giant retailers did run them out of business, and concentrated that income into the hands of a few investers instead of across society. George Soros said the very notion of equilibrium is false. I think I will take his world for that instead of your
@louiethegreater you are advocating they would hate your guts. Their lives are improved because of Walmart. As I said it's in a factory or in a Rice field for a 1/4 of the money. In regards to business. With the savings that people obtain from Walmart, it gives the opportunity for specialty businesses to open for people to take expendable cash and use it for other things. Coffee shops, video game stores, tobacco stores, clothing stores etc... Stores that could not exist without the middle and
@louiethegreater Of course I'm talking about Soros. Then some obscure candidate that I haven't heard of, and that is part for the course for what I would expect out of you. You are the type to follow Zeitgeist or whatever new age BS comes down the pike. Totally focused on your agenda, abandoning any common sense others have instinctively. My guess is you are very young, or have some mental issues. You get on here and troll to argue a universally rejected tenet. Fletch and I gave not talked,
@SuperGuitarman69 Speaking of a universally rejected tenet. Did you know that free trade has been rejected by the american people. We just cannot find a candidate that will support the issue.Uninformed folks thought that Obama was the man, but those of us paying close attention knew he was only a puppet of the globalization crowd (that be you). Did you know that the top three Microsoft officers ownes more wealth than the combined assets of the 43 least developed countries. 600 million people
@SuperGuitarman69 Tariffs would end Wallmarts reign, domestic industries world hire workers, walmart would be forced to pay living wages, mom and pop stores world open up again, the wealth concentraded into a few investers coffers would be spread across the entire economy. Many woud recieve some, instead of a few recieving all. Spreading the wealth over the entire economy is what the founders had in mind. Free trade concentrates wealth into the hands of asian investers, not the entire population
@louiethegreater This is why you have no business blogging and talking. This will be my final discussion with you. In your world this would be the result. I have a degree in this I assure you this will not be the result. What will happen is this. Millions of people first in foremost will be out of work. There would be no immediate change in new business opening. It takes time due to licensing, LLC establishment, building etc... This is not quick by any means. So there would be a huge advance
@SuperGuitarman69 I would announce a year in advance that the U.S. would be imposing tariffs on foreign goods. That would give invester a year to invest in the manufacturing ameica needs to sustain itself.
Hey listen ignorant just because you have spent your life under a tub, doesn't mean I am going to quit informing others that they are being hoodwinked by free trade. You are a Chicken Rooting for Colonial Saders. You acturally believe you are one of the elitist, instead of a guitar picker.
@louiethegreater at their business? When Walmart can hire 100's? And the mom and pop can survive on local traffic. In my community we have a hardware store, auto parts store that still survive due to it's 20 min to get to the nearest Walmart. So yes your mom and pops closing is a lie, a fallacy. Give me the numbers in hard data of the businesses closing. It doesn't exist. Now, that is competition in every aspect working in the free market. Next China. Will it change imports? NO! Small and Big
@SuWalmart encourages outsourcing, they do not defend their business model, they openly admit seeking out the cheapest labor in the world. The people working in the factories producing products for walmart live in squalor, yards away from the state of the art factories that produce the products for export to walmart. Is this the conditions you want your 401K to gain your retirement on. I would think again if I were you. I personally do not want to retire off the backs of third world peasants. 2
@SuperGuitarman69 Sherrod Brown, describes the conditions of trade free zones in Nicaragua. The companys operating in these trade free zones pay employees .21 cents for every pair of jeans they sew together. They are sold to walmart for $7.00 and Walmart retails them in the american market for $25.00. Now I ask you are you proud of the fact that someone in Nicaragua sews them together for ,21 measly cents. If you justify that kind of exploitation you are insinsitive, and an exploiter yourself. 3
@louiethegreater those of us who think the way we both do have come through all types of beliefs until things clear up for us. In other words, we are deeper, more knowledgeable. One of my professors said that Smiths invisible hand is NOT invisible, it is only to agenda driven minds! Minds like yours. I spelled it out for you on here. Others will read our last exchange and dismiss you!
@SuperGuitarman69 Wow what a joke, you spelled out what? That you support businesses that works poor people in state of the art factories, and sends them home to dirt floor huts. You also support the philosophy they are glad to have the job, when the multinationals that creates these trade free zones, supported by the governments of these third world countries. Desinged without worker protections, labor unions are illegal, these people earn .30 to .40 cents an hour. Yea you spelled it out alrigh
@louiethegreater You have lost. I put it out there in plain English. As I have said. You sound as if you are in your first economic debate class in college. With an idea that you are "really going to show them". But you would be exposed quickly. You would get a lot of eye rolls and chuckles as you blew out your agenda. The same as I did. Yes Louie, you have been schooled. You have been exposed. And I have had a laugh at your expense. It is time for you to move on. Debate children. Make it fair
@SuperGuitarman69 The closest you ever came to a economic debate in college was a government sponsored trade school at your local community college. Admit it you are a clown who picks the guitar on weekends at the local bars, unsually free, or for drinks. You probably earn you income from the local walmart and social services pays your bills for you. You probably have the fantasy that someday you will be another superstar, you are the epitome of the starving artist syndrome. Nice try
@louiethegreater You are an amateur. I have ran into some who can actually debate key points. I have disagreements with them on certain things, but the are certainly in the ball park of discussing key issues. You are not. It's not only that you are an ideologue, but that you are so off base. You have read theory from sources that are not only off their rocker, but dangerous as well. Such as a George Soros. I suggest you stay off youtube. Find a blog where they are at your level.
@SuperGui Hey, If a key point came down the street in a red hat you could not recognize it. You are so oblivious to the events taking over your own country that you actually believe it is a liberal or conservative problem. You have not figured out that it doesn't matter who controlls the politics of the country nothing ever changes. Brain dead supporters of austrin ecomomic theory should not be posting on these forums. Most, do believe they are taking theory, you acturally believe it is science.
@louiethegreater Louie, I can see you getting prepared to jump on your laptop. You put on a gimp mask and a ball gag, then you get on and race to a Milton Friedman or Austrian site. You find someone, and then spout off your ludicrous new age concepts so those like myself will spank you for days on end. Well I have got news for you Louie, I am onto your masochistic game, and I have had enough. My arm is tired, go let someone else spank you for awhile.
@SuperGuitarman69 Is that what Guitar Pickers do in your neck of the woods. I quote " SPANK PEOPLE" wow how sick. Logically ; that must be where you mentality is, because whatever is in your heart comes out your mouth. So you must spend a great deal of your time meditating on: I quote "SPANKING PEOPLE". No---- My motive for being here is to help you abandon the brainwashing you have recieved, and to explain to you that Austrin Economics is theory, and free trade has never existed anywhere.
@louiethegreater America is the greatest country in the world. We for the first part of our History largely had free markets and trade. Our own money and no bank as well. No, sorry, their is a reason I said what I said. You have been spanked so hard that you MUST enjoy it. Now as I said gimpy, move along. There are others out here that would enjoy spanking you too for days on end. Shoo Shoo Shoo
@Su The reason you said what you said is because you are a sick sodomasochist. That is apparant that, that activity is a dominant part of you thought life, or you world have never brought it up in the context of a economics arguement. America started as a portectionist economy and stayed there for 200 years, furthermore we prospered like no other country in the world, as long as we protected our economy. It wasn't untill a few decided to prosper off the hardships of their own countrymen.
@louiethegreater You are a gimp. It is evident. You go to sites to get around people who actually have common sense and have a clue. Why? It makes no sense. I'm sure that you like to be bashed. We have serious discussions. We actually try to sort through serious problems with only slight variations in opinions. My mind can be changed on some things. LibertyPens channel has done that on quite a few things. You are out to lunch. It's like a geeky kid trying to box a jock. YOU are the sado gimp!
@SuperGuitarman69 No I go to sites with the intention of teaching those who actually don't know the forces that has befell their country. Some is just plain to dumb to understand, (that be you) that they are being hoodwinked by those who have the economic power in the country. You are stupid enough to believe globalization should serve investment, instead of people. Working third world populations for .20 to .30 an hour, and shipping the products to the U.S. is not serving people.
@louiethegreater If that were true you would understand what actually has been destroying the country. You do not have a clue. And in regards to the .20 .30 an hour. That is untrue. But even if it wasn't do you know what would happen to those people if our companies were not there? What would actually be their situation? If they knew you wanted to pull all companies out of their country to "help" them out? They would hate your guts and you would be intentionally starving millions. You dumbass
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey you troitorous prick, what has happened to our people when they are not here. Half of america does not pay federal taxes now because they do not have the income to reach the federal tax threshold. To manufacture in the third world, and ship back to the U.S. only destroys our economy. How could you be so ignorant to your surroundings. You expect people to believe you have a degree in economics. Why don't you find a site and debate Keynesian, vs Austrin that kind of dribble.
@louiethegreater Exactly. You fix that by deregulation and taxation relief. Otherwise you are FORCING the companies to stay here and pay huge wages to union members who are coerced bu thuggery by union representatives. Then you get Chrysler, and GM which inevitably fail. Then tax payers come in and bail out a company who should go under deserving so for allowing them to make concessions they can't possibly provide. Thank you for making my argument. You really are a putz
@SuperGuitarman69 Huge wages-- What--- paying people a living wage for there labor is huge wages. What would you prefure for you countrymen .20/hr. If you are so against regulation I hope someone builds a pig farm next door to you, and dumps the waste into the stream that runs behind your house. I hope they build a coal burning power plant at the edge of your city and you are down wind from it so that it will have maximum effect on your lungs. Tariffs portects our society and denys our market.
@SuperGuitarman69 You mean allowing multinationals free access to our markets is the responsability of our society. Our society does not exist so multinational corporations has a market for their products. Our society exists for each individual in the society, not so a few CEO and investers in the corporation can prosper. The founders in their wisdom knew that, so they set in motion a protected economy. If you have the brain, you should notice that corps. love controlled societies like Asia.
@Super Why don't you just admit that you have been brainwashed by the global plutocracy. You are content with the redistribution of the american middleclasses wealth to the thirdworld. That you somehow believe you will be exempt from the declining living standards of the west. That you are ready ot trade in you U.S. citizenship for a global one. You don't have enough sense to figure out the global dangers in the collapse of western democracy, and it will collapse when dollars are sold off.
@louiethegreater Once again you are an idiot. I have nothing more to say to you. Thank god you are in the minority. You aren't even in the minority. You do not have a clue do you? Not one clue. I can't argue issues with you because you are off your rocker. You are in a mental institution aren't you? You are really something. Shoo gimpy. Off with you. Go to Cuba. Your mental issues and views will fit right in. Castro would love you.
@SuperGuitarman69 How does it feel to get your ignorant butt kicked on the issues. You are just to stupid to know the issues, less on understand them. You have no creditability and please don't embarrass yourself by telling folks you have a degree. That is comedy.
So if WW2 didnt get us out of the great depression what did?
IcyScythe 2 weeks ago
An additional scenario is the increased divorce rates in the United States. We say, "Wow divorce rates are up that is really unfortunate," but to follow the same consistent argument, we must say divorce is good. Divorce allows for two times the expenditure on housing, utilities perhaps, furnishings, etc... This perverse though could not be further from the reality of the world. Society's well being is significantly less.
deckert 2 months ago
This makes me think of the old commercial where the guy would say, "we are the price busters", right as he puts a sledge hammer through a television set. now deep down in my heart of hearts I know that trashing a tv set didn't do his profit loss statement any good, but there are people out there who would rush out to buy a tv from the price buster.
Zyworski 4 months ago
when there is any disaster, there must be rebuilding. Rebuilding involves taking out loans (helping banks) and creating jobs (helping me and you) . So in the short run it is good. 9/11 caused two wars. Killing people is wrong, but economically it makes the banks and workers (lesser so) alot of money.
jeffedinboro09 6 months ago
The economy is bad because too little people hold too much of the "wealth" or stuff we put wealth into (dollars)
If rich people spent money like crazy, then that would be okay. But when rich people hoard money, it's bad for everybody, even them. What will rich people buy when too many businesses fail? Money will be worthless if everything collapses...
shadesters 6 months ago
@shadesters
> it's bad for everybody, even them
So why do they do it. Or alternately you're a dumbass
sdkee 6 months ago
@sdkee OR they are the dumbasses... the do it to keep themselves in power and control... but when everything collapses, they won't have anybody to control anymore
shadesters 6 months ago
@shadesters There is no such thing as hoarding. They can only invest or spend. Even if they save it in a bank, which there is every incentive to do so, it is still lowering interest rates for the ordinary people to get educational loans, consumer loans, cars, and mortgages. Granted we are in a free economy that grows by saving and producing rather than borrowing and consuming.
AroundSun 4 months ago
@AroundSun You would be right, if the banks were still lending, which they really aren't... I am not saying we need to go socialist or fall, but we need some improvements... like more taxes for the rich and less kickbacks for CEOs of failing businesses... it was the high variable interest rates and bad lending that helped fuel the latest mortgage crisis, and then we bailed the banks out, and they still give their CEOs millions in bonuses? Only in America can you reward failure...
shadesters 4 months ago
@shadesters Bailouts are a form of fascism and corporate socialism. Capitalism is not to blame, the federal reserve central bank and the cushy relationships between big business and Washington are to blame for every economic problem we face today.
AroundSun 4 months ago
@AroundSun True, but those relationships are pretty much set in concrete, and we can't sever their ties, because the people in power keep everything the way they want it, regardless of what the people want, even though government is supposed to be for the people... We need a good flushing out of government, and I don't see that happening anytime soon... people will always wait until it's too late... when will it be too late this time? When unemployment hits 20%?
shadesters 4 months ago
@shadesters Libertarianism is the future. We have no choice. We're broke and people are waking up
AroundSun 4 months ago
@AroundSun If anything the bailouts goes to show that the corps are completely hypocritical when it comes to economic models. Normally they'd say that socialism won't help any form of economy and that pure capitalism is the way to go, but when socialism can help them in a time of need it's only the right thing to do.
Squiglypig 4 months ago
@Squiglypig Of course, who isn't going to take free money? But ask yourself, who is giving it away! Who is opening up the treasury doors to these people? THE POLITICIANS! Why do they do this? Because they are bribed and lobbied!!
AroundSun 4 months ago
I often found it amazing that anyone could believe that destroying something is good for the economy.
Taken to its logical conclusion, if we destroy EVERYTHING then we would be wealthy beyond our wildest dreams!
That is absolutely absurd. We would be living in caves foraging for our food.
Goohuman 6 months ago 2
@Goohuman
True but there may be a temporary advantage where funds which would have been saved are spent. All you are doing is converting future consumption (savings) into present consumption. It's arbitrage through time.
patrickcorliss 6 months ago
@patrickcorliss If I understand your point correctly, you are suggesting that by destroying something, you are forcing the spending of money that would otherwise be saved? Is it possible that people need to save up to buy better stuff and forcing them to fix damage keeps them from buying that bigger item?
Would you consider breaking your window so you would be forced to spend your money to fix it?
Goohuman 6 months ago
@Goohuman
What I am saying is that I've fot a few thousand dollars in the bank. Let's say "saved for a rainy day". Then I have a car accident. I am more-or-less compelled to fix my car. So I spend the money. Of course, it's not what I would have wanted. Nor would I advocate smashing cars.
But that's not to deny that there is an economic effect viz a conversion from savings to consumption.
In other words, it is bringing forward to the present what was deferred.
patrickcorliss 6 months ago
@patrickcorliss Okay. So you do recognize that is a bad way using savings. Spending money to buy new stuff is always better than spending money to fix broken stuff.
Goohuman 6 months ago
@Goohuman
You said "Spending money to buy new stuff is always better than spending money to fix broken stuff".
My view is that you are confusing the issue by talking about what's "better". From a Keynesian viewpoint you can stimulate the economy by digging up holes and filling them in again. But that's nonsense.
I didn't say that war is "good for the conomy". I said that it "has an economic effect". My own view is that the economic effect is "better" facilitated by building hospitals.
patrickcorliss 6 months ago
@patrickcorliss Okay. But what point is there discussing the many ways of spending money if not to find the best way to do so?
Goohuman 6 months ago
@Goohuman
You ask "What's the point?" when I'm saying that it's true that you can stimulate the economy. If you like, there is an economic question and a political question which are different.
Politicians need to argue about how to do this stuff rather than argue about the economics of it. My own view is that economics should be a science so that politicians don't manipulate the math. I know that's a folorn hope as you only need to look at evolution or climate change to see that.
patrickcorliss 6 months ago
@patrickcorliss I think you are mixing up "stimulate" with "drain".
Goohuman 6 months ago
@Goohuman
Put it another way. It MUST be true that war has an economic effect. Nobody would disagree.
But that does not equate to advocating war as an economic tool to stimulate the economy.
patrickcorliss 6 months ago
@patrickcorliss I assure you, war is not good for the economy either. In fact, many wars were lost because one side simply ran out of funds. If you are fighting for your life and the life of your family, but the country whose army you are in runs out of funds because you are off fighting rather than working, it makes you think, "Maybe we should have SAVED a bit more. Now my family is going to die too."
Goohuman 6 months ago
If a broken window can stimulate an economy lets give all the kids in town some rocks, they'll know what to do. If war can stimulate an economy why don't all the nations of the world pick some neutral ground and go have a fake war. You could have a war ten times the size of WW2 and nobody even needs to die, we'd all be rich!
mitcha002 6 months ago
That's ridiculous. Comparing a silly story about a broken window in a pre-industrial age village to a gargantuan economy like the modern USA is absurd. WW2 did change the US economy in a monumental way - it created the US military budget that still to this day is greater than the military budget of the next 15 other countries combined.
AtheistOnTheEdge 6 months ago
think of how many innocent suits those twin attacks made unavailable... =(
lordy500 6 months ago
That is excellent!
tabletalk33 6 months ago
This argument does not consider technological unemployment, and the fact that since the industrial revolution, the workers can not afford to buy back the goods produced. A condition that did not exist during Bastiat's time. Destruction does not create wealth, it can not, but it can get people to work in an insane socioeconomic system.
slmrcs 6 months ago
@slmrcs
You're essentially committing the same fallacy, but in reverse. Having an immensely greater supply of capital goods relative to labor is what makes us so much wealthier than people of the past. It doesn't put us out of work, it makes our work more productive, and raises our standard of living. The labor-time it would have taken you to afford food and clothing in the days before industrialization was much longer than it now takes you to earn computers, cell-phones, refrigerators, etc.
JesseForgione 6 months ago
@JesseForgione technological unemployment is a real thing. Destruction of real resources is from an empirical, real world perspective always detrimental - I agree with that. However, our economic system of capitalism is a game, that doesn't not relate well to the real world - for instance sick and dying people in hospitals create jobs and raise GDP and makes jobs. From the perspective of the capitalistic game, destruction gives jobs, that had been displaced to to technological unemployment.
slmrcs 6 months ago
yeah but at the same time he gave work to a glass maker and the glass installer... who are probably town's people as well, who needs to put food on the table. Who cares if some store owner couldn't afford to buy a new fancy suit? And I bet ya the suit maker wasn't gonna suffer from missing one sale. Either way you actually look at it some one was gonna lose work wether it was the glass maker or the suit maker.
RichardMoudry 6 months ago
this is so painfully obvious it shouldnt even have to be said, but unfortunately it does. I think what people often mean when they say things like that is if benefits the parts of the economy that they are somehow involved with
yngvaibucketrucci 6 months ago
Indeed, by the beginning of World War II, we had already recovered from the depression.
lazyperfectionist1 6 months ago
This is an over simplistic view that economics so often does. The opportunity cost for the baker is passed on to the glass maker. Who now can buy the suit. Otherwise the glass maker would never been able to buy the suit. And because of the broken window, the baker now invests in insurance as well. The insurance company just gained. You see, it depends who had the destruction. WW2, we had practically no destruction, Europe and Asia was in ashes. Who benefited?
jmitterii2 6 months ago
men are two, one is looking for money, the other has it but can't get enough.
smartzazi 6 months ago
what's the name of the music that begins from 0:50 ??
liquidus2172 6 months ago
@atlasnetwork: Have you thought about doing a video on the Candlemakers' Petition?
benrudin 6 months ago
BASTIAAT!! cool name
Faisdragon 6 months ago
@TheTomGPalmer No, that was a fake quote. He didn't actually say that.
WelcometotheUnknown 6 months ago
Mainstream, Keynesian economics commits the broken window fallacy, right?
Paul Krugman said recently that WWII spending got us out of the Great Depression and that a fake alien invasion that would make everyone put inflation and budget deficits as secondary issues to the impending purported attack, then the resulting production in preparation for the supposed space alien attack would be "fiscal stimulus" to get us out of the slump we are in. Is this not as absurd as it sounds intuitively? BWF?
WelcometotheUnknown 6 months ago
@WelcometotheUnknown He also just said that "People on twitter might be joking, but in all seriousness, we would see a bigger boost in spending and hence economic growth if the earthquake had done more damage." His economic theory rests on earthquakes and space aliens.
TheTomGPalmer 6 months ago
Destruction does not create wealth, it destroys it. Duhhhh. Bastiat rules!
SirTenenbaum 8 months ago
World War 2 meant a huge surge of economic acticity in the US and after the war, the major industrial competitors to the US were bombed back to the Stoneage - Japan and Germany, namely. So yes, the war did indeed pull the US out of the Great Depression. Don't let this oversimplified Bastiat methaphor fool you..
Bubbaz001 9 months ago
@Bubbaz001 Nonsense. If you count as "economic activity" building bombs and killing people with them, you are right. If you mean adding wealth and improving life, you are completely wrong. Everything during the war was worse... less meat, more accidents, rationing, shortages, etc. The depression didn't end until after WWII was over & war contracts cancelled. See Robert Higgs in Jrnl of EconHistory and in book "Depression, War, and Cold War: Challenging the Myths of Conflict and Prosperity"
TheTomGPalmer 9 months ago
Perhaps you are ignoring Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine". In my opinion the economic gains or losses are part of the game being played.
mozillanerd 10 months ago
The fallacy of the broken window is the most important single idea in economics, ever. Only a mis-educated idiot fails to understand this.
fairman1952 10 months ago
@fairman1952 See, the thing is the child broke the glass so he has to pay for it. What is the difference if the glass maker makes money or the baker. What if the baker is buying a new suit because someone ripped his old one. Using this broken window fallcy is too simpleminded to expalin complicated situations. I don't buy it, Sorry.
drewm4355 9 months ago
@drewm4355 Money is not wealth. Money is a means of exchange. If I have $100,000,000 in dollar bills in the middle of the desert, but not a glass of water to keep me alive, I am not wealthy. (And printing money, like in Zimbabwe, doesn't make you richer; you have more money, but can't buy more stuff.) If you break a window, there is *less wealth.* Money may move from tailor to baker, but wealth was still destroyed. The tornado in Joplin made people poorer; it was not "good for the economy"
TheTomGPalmer 9 months ago 19
@TheTomGPalmer Tom, I am not an economist. but to humor me, here goes. The economy is poor in Joplin. No one is buying anything. No money, no jobs. Tornado hits. Now things have to be replaced, rebuilt. money has to be spent and that money is making the blders rich so they can afford to buy a car,giving jobs to auto mnfrs, glass mkrs, tire mkrs, gas stations,etc. So where is the money coming from?Taxes, insurance..Taxes comes from income and income comes from working. Someone is producing.
drewm4355 9 months ago
@drewm4355 It depends what you define as money.....what the people in Joplin will use as a means of exchange will ultimately be used as money because it is perceived as being of value from the same people. But the money used to rebuilt in your case has to come from some sort of savings, if there is no money in the economy initially and no jobs there isnt much the tornado will destroy so you are back to square one....
vincentca2004 8 months ago
This is not a good argument. The baker lost money, but the guy who installs windows made money. Is this not a wash/
drewm4355 10 months ago
@drewm4355 Money is not wealth; it is a means of exchange. The village is poorer by one suit. Breaking stuff and having it fixed moves money around, but it means less wealth available to be enjoyed.
TheTomGPalmer 9 months ago
@TheTomGPalmer See, the thing is the child broke the glass so he has to pay for it. What is the difference if the glass maker makes money or the baker. What if the baker is buying a new suit because someone ripped his old one. Using this broken window fallcy is too simpleminded to expalin complicated situations. I don't buy it, Sorry.
drewm4355 9 months ago
The real question u must ask to determine the health of an economy is how many goods & services are available to the individual in the marketplace? not the govt- the individual. War machines, bombs, suicidal soldiers- all these things are not consumer goods. Nor are they essentially capital goods. War machines, bombs & soldiers sent out to die are destructive not productive
swu880 10 months ago
Im sorry but the great depression never ended until years after the WWII
swu880 10 months ago
Nonsense video! Carpet bomb New York and create millions of jobs overnight... clearly that's the only rational solution to our high unemployment.
groam6666 11 months ago
Since I never said Bastiat argued for a positive GDP impact (and since despite what you say about his position, GDP was not a measure that even existed in his time) I can only underscore my previous point.
The video, however, is an argument against the case for positive GDP impact- my post agreed with this position to a point. But the substitution argument relies on "all things being equal" and after a system shock like 9/11 that is simply a dumb assumption to make.
malthust 11 months ago
@100CommonCents Wow- you have misunderstood me, the video and Bastiat all in one post.
malthust 11 months ago
@100CommonCents All economics overlooks things because the field is entirely based on simplified models. Suggest you move up from the kindergarden stuff and study economics that is based on actual evidence. Economic convictions held on pure faith are religion, not science.
malthust 11 months ago
It's just another lie they push on you to make you feel good about their false flags and illegal wars. It's like they tell you it's actually good to take away your rights & freedoms because it will make you safer. Just as the broken window actually costs the community & citizen/owner of the bakeshop so too does the state's destruction of your freedom since as everyone knows and history shows you're in more danger when you're not free and when the state in particular, takes your freedom from you.
rfalfonse 11 months ago
the boy is a hero. LOL.
DontMeanWell 11 months ago
Comment removed
1haochi 11 months ago
@malthust..I agree. I think we need to consider that in the case of WW2, for example, productivity increased and the workforce grew ie. (women) to build the war machine. Bastiat does not take into account fundamental changes in the economy that may result from disaster.
1haochi 11 months ago
@1haochi
But it was government money that paid for the war machine. It drained resources away from the productive sector.
TimeWarp66 11 months ago
@1haochi Heck, we don't need a WW to put everybody to work. Get some shovels and get everybody digging holes, then filling them in again. It's less destructive than bombing folks, but everyone's happily at work -- full employment, right? The point that you fail to grasp and all Keynesians is that mere statistics do not make productivity. Just as printing gobs of paper or virtual dollars, enough to make everyone a millionaire, does nothing to create actual prosperity.
leafwatch 11 months ago
@1haochi
ok. you haven't read Bastiats works. productivity in no sense of the word increased during WWII. It really makes absolutely no sense to say such a thing. If it were true, that the 'war' is good for the whole country & the whole economy, then what u are sayin is that by sending virtually ALL the young able bodied men & college kids over seas to die- that will stimulate the economy?
swu880 10 months ago
The application of Bastiat's work here is sloppy.
Sure, everyday destruction (like the Baker's window) does not have (much of) a net positive GDP impact- though it is not hard to argue that, in reality satiety is possible and we would demand less in total in a world where nothing broke or became obsolete. But something on the scale of 9/11 has a STRUCTURAL impact on the economy, impacting net savings, productivity, velocity of money, innovation etc. These shift is what Krugman is referencing.
malthust 1 year ago
Bastiat was the bad ass of economist!! hahaha
Coteincdr 1 year ago 24
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jennykopra 1 year ago
Being creative and innovative benefits all of us. Louiethegimp down there is typing on his computer, wearing his gimp mask and ball gag, all created by those seeking to make a profit. Which is the benefit to him. He can have his fetish and type on a marvelous invention (his dell) and enjoy his life. While someone invented them to pursue their happiness (the yacht) he is ill so he can't see this. He gets spanked too as he bounces back and forth from youtube to porn. He wants us to live like Cuba
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
Wow, bet you picked up all that gimp mask stuff in those gay bars you play that made in China guitar in. Probably those drag queens really dig you in your drag queen leotards, and tank top. Bet you take your pay out in trade don't you. Actually that is the only place that will allow you to strum the guitar and yoddle. Bet you really enjoy the nite life with those fags, you are progably fat and homley, and have been rejected by the gals so you turned your affection to the ferryguys like yourself
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Hey louiethegimp, I realized something. You do not know anything about the founding fathers do you? There was NO such thing as protectionist capitalism. EVER! In our first 100 years there was absolutely NO regulation on free markets. That is the one thing Jefferson had assured American entrepreneurs of. You do not even have your history correct. And no. I have no problems with women. Never had. Put your gimp mask and ball gag in and go somewhere else.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Wrong supergaybe69, the country was founded on protectionist capitalism. I recieved some PMs about you, most agree that you are one of those drag queen huzzies, that plays and yoddles in those Nashville gay bars. It was pointed out to me that the 69 is a message to those drag queen momas you adore. Heard you moved to Nashville from LA to enjoy the Drag Queen nitelife, yep I knew you got that sado lifestyle from first hand expierience.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@louiethegreater Yeah pretty much
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Jefferson, The Declaration of Independence which was resounding endorsed by the founding fathers. If that means your happiness is sailing around the world in a 2 million dollar yacht, then you must earn money. Which means you can either be creative and innovative or rob people. Which is why we have courts. If CEO's make millions of dollars that is between their shareholders and the company. Not myself, nor government or certainly not Louiethegimp P1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Wrong again it is the responsabilty of government to protect the interest of citizens. The concentration of wealth could not have occured if the protectionist capitalism the founders established would not have been replaced by laissez faire capitalism. You are just not aware enough of your surrounding to know that, air heads do miss alot of the activity they in their surroundings.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
I beleive college professors are all that believe that broken window fallacy, and of course the austrin economics crowd. Normal people; who have not sit in the classroom and allowed all common sense to be trained out of them, do not believe--- or even think of such stupidity.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater The broken window fallacy has been proven over and over again. Destruction does not bring about economic growth. It merely moves money around and focuses it on one or two industries. Which in turn doesn't make an economy grow in the least. It is simple to understand. I am amazed at how many leftist still cannot do basic math.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey, I didn't say I didn't understand it, I just said it is just to stupid to give much thought to. If you want to treat something so elementary as some kind of guru wisdom go ahead. Most americans understand the forces that destroyed our economy. When the country moved away from Protectionist Capitalism, to the economy destroying Laissez- faire Capitalism---- that is what transfured our GDP to China, and gave Communism the wealth to dominate that region of the world.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater
LOL we moved from protectionism to laissez-faire? You can't be serious.
jackavgn 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Protectionism to laissez-faire? Lol, okay. Yeah our founding fathers set up protectionism. Oh boy, no wonder we are in a mess. Leftist Americans do not know basic history. Or worse they are re writing it.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Yes, the founders used tariffs to protect domestic industris. If you are not aware of that, than you are the one in need of learning history. Tariffs are the fairest of all taxes, we only pay them when we buy imported goods, and they tax foreign businesses that use our economy. The concept of protective tariffs the founders did understand and implemented fully, into the structure of our economy. That served us well for 200 years, than the gloalization crowd bought Washington.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater No you are taking about port trade tariffs. It is a common mistake from non economists. The Smoot Hawley act is more appropriate to what you condone. And no, it killed American business. So many mistakes were made in the 30's that I can't hardly type long enough to point them all out, and why they were HUGE mistakes. 100 years later and we are still paying for all of that. Free trade HELPS our country, not hurts us. We trade our products with the world to our benefit p1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago 2
@SuperGuitarman69 No, I am talking about protective tariffs. The substance of Amercas early development, and created a country that has been the envy of the world. Tariffs and labor unions created the american middleclass. Laissez Faire Capitalism had nearly destroyed that middleclass in one generation. If you would read these books you would slowly overcome the brainwashing you have recieved. " Free Trade, Protectionism and the Founding Fathers" by Ed Bowlin, "Bad Samaritans" by Ha-Joon Chang
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Oh my god there is no end to you is there? I'm not even going to get into this with you. There is verifiable history and facts. You are going to use Ed Bowlin? Are you kidding me?
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey, Ed Bowlin is to help you, not me, I know my history.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater No, no you do not. You are pretty much a tyrant. You are for tyranny. You think that government is the answer to everything. While every last problem we have faced in the last 200+ years of this country can be traced to government intervention. Legislation AFTER the constitution has overreached it's bounds. We have a government that everyday makes new laws that take away yet another freedom to an individual, or a law that stifles a business. You are on the side of tyranny. P1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Yes, Yes I do. The constitution gave congress the right to regulate trade. Of course your crawd gave trade negotiators authority to negotiate free trade agreements and shut congress competely out the process. Then through the use of Fast Track Authority limited Congress to a up or down vote. GATT and the WTO has completely relieved congress of their responsability to the constitution. You love the fact that american workers are forced to compete with cheap third world labor.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater stopped. So you want the wonderful flower of government to regulate our rights. Tell us what to buy, sell, drink, eat, sleep. What we can and cannot have (like the 100 watt light bulb) (eye roll). You side with politicians who get in bed with corporations who pay them enormous sums of money TO SET REGULATION, that keeps other companies from competing. You get in bed with these politicians with your vote. Which hurts America and ultimately the individual who pays higher P3
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Why do we have the Federal Reserve? The Federal Reserve is the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, JP Morgans. ALL DEMOCRATS. They make bazillions of dollars by coming up with ponzi schemes through regulations. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare etc... Government borrows money to pay these bankrupt programs. They get involved with industries like education and healthcare and that drives up prices. Look up the rate of college tuition and healthcare costs before government involvment. P5
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 We have the Fed, because the American People got hoodwinked. The same way you are being hoodwinked by free trade.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Guess who the top 1% are? Banking elitists. Kind of kills your argument doesn't it. Be careful with facts they are dangerous. Sure you have Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs etc... But they are by FAR not the richest. And your comment on the Fed? Oh boy are you now going to be hated. This country is turning on the Fed more and more everyday. Why? Because it is a criminal organization. People are now learning this. Because we were hoodwinked? LMAO It is A SCAM!!!!!!!!!
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Why would the top 1% being baking elitist destroy any argument is am making. Even if it were true. Those americans investing in cheap asian labor are the people making the disproportionate incomes. Those bakers are only a handfull of families, globally. They are part of that 1%, but not all of it. Hey I would love to see the end of the Fed. That is why I gave you the assignment of ending it, a bright Washington graduate like yourself, that really know his history,and economics
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater and led to the unconstitutional Federal Reserve act. You forget, I have a degree in economics. There is no 2 sides to this. It is facts against revision. I have no idea how old you are my guess is you are young. How does NWO get ushered in? By America collapsing. How does it collapse? Not militarily, but by the dollar collapsing. How do you collapse the dollar. Simply put 2 ways. Massive debt and printing money to cover it creating more debt. How do you create debt? Set up..
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarma I am amazed that you have a degree in economics. One would never know! We could continue past page one if you had a few more of those facts. Our economy is being destroyed by deindustrialization of the country, and the race to the bottom. When Laissez- Faire Capitalism replaced Protectionist Capialism, corporations knew they could use third world cheap labor to manufacture, and ship the products back to the U.S. without threat of tariffs, entitlements has nothing to do with it.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater First of all. Ask the Chinese workers if he minds working for the American company. He doesn't. It's that, work in a field for a 1/4 of the money, or starve. You are wrong in so many ways. I am arguing with someone who is in the minority. Most people know this. And it was more than the housing bubble. It is way deeper than that. What you are wanting to adopt WILL LEAD to the end of our economy. But, that is no mind. You will not succeed. Those like you have ran your mouth P1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Supe So you a loyal american, don't mind creating unemployment for millions of ameicans, so that Chinese can have jobs. Is that right!!! Wow--- glad you don't really dislike your countrymen. You support China offering their peasant population to multinationals as cheap labor, while the ruling class of China makes massive profits from foreign investment. The ratio on wages is 47/1 not 4/1 does most people know that. Tariffs will lead to the salvation of our economy, not the distruction.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater went in. The area is a million times nicer than what the city officials wanted to do with it with the Nashville tax payers money. If they had not had us to convince them to leave it to the market and the investors that wanted to renovate and build? NONE of that would have happened. How much did I make off that? ZERO! I and the others did it for the city. Now we have tax revenue and a great new area to frequent. If left to the government? Subsidized housing was the goal. So....
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Heres the facts, of what you are, in spite of what you think of yourself. You are first of all a traitor to your own country and countrymen. You would gladly trade in your american citizenship for a global one. You would gladly give your own countrymens jobs in manufacturing to the third world, and then attack them for going to the government for assistance. You support walmart business models, who drive oursurcing and the race to the bottom. You are totally ignorant to history
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater I swear, I run into people like you and I'm just baffled at it. I'll be honest. I know you want to bring this country down. I know you want to see the constitution abolished and everything we stand for go to a NWO alliance, but just say it outloud. Be proud if that is your goal. Don't hide it. But do not insult history or this country by actually lying and being a historical revisionist. Just come clean. Because you cannot win the debate on economics. PERIOD> It only shows lies
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey you are the gloalist, neo-liberal here not me. I support the country, and my own countrymen. You have on problem at all in sending your own countrymen's jobs to the third world. You would gladly trade in your american citizenship for a global one. I support the U.S. and do not want to see her incorporated into another EU. I also support an accurate interpretation of ameican history, Von Mises does not!
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Why are American businesses going to China? You say = Cheap Labor WRONG = Regulation and the 2nd highest corporate taxation in the world. Why was the Federal Reserve Act passed into law? You say= To stabilize the economy WRONG= it was set up on Dec 24 1913 in the shadows, to promote JP Morgan, Rockefellers, and Rothschilds in a scheme to pillage the American people through debt. In 1907 a rumor stated that the bank of New York was insolvent. That rumor was started by JP Morgan
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Multinationals can hire 47 Chinese for one american. That is why corporations are going to China. They also have no envorometna regulation, no worker protections, and no health and safety standards. They also have forced labor camps. If you don't like regulation I hope someone builds a pig farm next door to you, and dumps the waste products into your drinking water. That would serve you right. Hey I am on your side concerning the Fed, all that is needed is to end it.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater massive entitlements, government pension promises, wars etc... Now what out of those did our constitution mandate? National security, that's ALL. So to take down the country you have to print the money to pay for the entitlements. Appropriated spending through amendments. I and others have warned and warned. We have called every bubble and bust, we have been correct 100% of the time. Luckily for this country you are in the minority and they are finally listening.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Su You have warned and warned, That is comedy. You have been correct about what? The country has been deindustrialized to the point we are no longer sustainable, here is not enough taxable manufacturing to sustain the economy. So you called the housing bubble; right--- how funny--- I have been associated with the building trades all my life, and everyone, and I do mean everyone, even to the lowleyest laborer, knew that housing, private and commercial was a bubble.The dark ages at your house.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater for ages. While those like me have only started recently. We are to busy living our lives. Not the left. They organize, pay people to show up at demonstrations etc... They own Hollywood, TV, News, Papers and inspite of all of that the opposition still manages to win elections. Why? Because people have math skills and instinct and can tell when they are being duped. And yes everything you are saying has been proven time and time again to be false. Keynes (who was crammed down.P2
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
You are living a theory as if it were fact. Austrin economics is a theory not a science. I voted for Chuck Baldwin the last election cycle. That is the Constitutonal Party, does that sound lefty to you. You are a globalist you hold no loyalties to any country. Most ameicans know that free trade does not work. Some other reading suggestions for you " Free Trade Doesn't Work" by Ian Fletcher, also read " The Myths of Free Trade" by Sherrod Brown. reading these will offset the brainwashing.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Ian Fletcher? No wonder you are totally messed up. Just so you know, I am on a board of 4 economic advisers in my city. I put a stop to the city spending massive tax dollars on subsidized housing. We took out government in control of a run down industrial area in Nashville and got them to relax taxes and regulation so they could fix and add additions. Over 300 jobs were created and 2 condo highrises went in at a base price of 125k each. Every last one was sold. 17 businessesP1
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Even though you told me I still don't know. Sounds like you have a lot of fantasies that you live out over the internet. I would say the only board you are a member of is the parole board. I know you have said a lot but heres what I believe, I don't believe you are a graduate of Wahington Univestity, I don't believe you have a degree in economics. I would guess that you are a guitar player that occasionally preforms for wages. Anyone that toots their own horn like you do, lies.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater market forces. And before you take your economic advice from a Victorian Literature expert you might want to trust those that are outside of government. We actually know. We haven't been bought by spending politicians. You in private, will never hear any economists singing the praises of stimulus or the Keynesian philosophy. It is widely known it is the left and their policies that keeps the system going to make bankers richer with fake money!!
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Supe Did you say WE KNOW. It should be apparant that Laissez-faire Capitalism does not work, free traders have destroyed the country in less than a generation. Since the late 60s globalization, and neo-liberal philosophy has completely destroyed our economy. All one would have to do is look at Japan and it should be apparant what a generation of protectionism can do for an economy. Japan dilligently protected her economy while we gave free access to every piece of over manufactured goods.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 No thanks I take my own economic advice.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Ok. Now I know you are completely nuts. You listen to me very closely now. I accepted your I do not support the Federal Reserve and I believed you and I did drop it. Now I need you to listen to me very closely here. We have not had free market capitalism since 1933. And in the 20's we had the Federal Reserve printing money and purposely creating a bubble to create the crash. Laissez-faire capitalism has not existed for over 70 years. In the 1800's we did. Not in the 20th century
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SupeHow could you get things so wrong. Was you born under a tub, or just close to one. The US economics were protectionist capitalism untill the late 1960s, then---- globalization was sold to Washington, since then deindustrializaton has been the objective of globalization. Of course the fantasy of conversion to a service economy was sold to the folks stupid enough to believe it, (that be you). Now economist open admit that has failed, by the way the same economist who bought service economy.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater . In the 1930s, lawmakers believed that unregulated business often led to injustice and inefficiency; in the 1960s and 1970s, concern shifted to regulatory capture, which led to extremely detailed laws creating the Environmental Protection Administration and Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Agencies and regulatory laws have slowed the growth of business and granted protection to businesses. There was MORE bureaucracy created not less. I remember you now.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 So now that you have visited Wikipedia and actually learned there was a EPA, and a OSHA now you are going to act brilliant and explain them to me. Actually I already am aware they exist and am aware of their function. Now that you have written your post in the shock that something like that actually exist in the U.S. what about them. Do we need to portect the enviroment from those manufacturers who don't mind poisoning the enviroment, even if they are in China.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Let's take the most hated by leftist enterprise in America. Walmart. Now in your world I am going to give a headline that would make your willy perk up. Today the corporate Juggernaut Walmart was forced to close it's doors due to the crimes against humanity in the United States and abroad. louiethegreater wrote the legislation that finally took Walmart down. Pelosi, Reid. louiethegreater and President Obama were at the signing. Now in that world. Tell me the advantages to it?
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 First of all Reid, Pelosi, and Obama are your allies, not mine, I voted for Chuck Baldwin of the Constitutional Party whom you probably never heard of. Now race to their Web Page, and carm as much information as you as quick as you can, so you will appear to have some idea what Mr. Baldwin represents. Reid, Pelosi, Obama does not repersent any of my political ideology. However they do yours, they are all free traders, which puts them in your camp not mine. end of 1
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater came isn't even a valid argument. That is a fallacy that has been completely contrived. So what you are looking at is massive unemployment. So the result? Massive people appearing on the government doles. You are looking now at raising taxes on the smaller businesses that this new move is to supposedly help. Businesses that pay the SAME EXACT TAX RATE AS WALMART CURRENTLY. This will lead in premature closing of businesses that were living in an equilibrium current to Walmart
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@louiethegreater There was a blog on you. Some that were a lot more moderate than I had discussed you and the falsity in your statements. I just re read all of that.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@louiethegreater FletchforFreedom copied all of your debates and where you get your sources from. It makes complete sense now why you are so off on everything. It's okay most people know better my friend. I think that you need to not debate. You can try to influence those who know nothing about politics or economics. You probably can convince them. But certainly not someone who knows the facts. That is why I have been confused by your comments.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 I would say fletch wrote that novel about me, to influence unthinging people (that be you)
He is a corporate owned lap dog who takes the party line. His goal is to convince unthinking people (like you) members of his mindless brigade of austrin troops. They (that be you) follow in lock step behind fletch the fearless singing his praises. You are a prime candidate for the exercise, so all you need to do is go cuddle up to him and hang on his every word. Jump up on his lap and
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater No we are former (stop at your forehead) thinking liberals who actually learned something. Everything you said is a contradiction. First there was no regulation. Then you praise regulation through OSHA and the EPA. Which cost several million jobs but that is another debate. Now, I have a question to pose for you. I can prove my point and be done. Next post is the question in full.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Super 2 My views an government responsibility is simple. Government should strive toward full employment for its citizens. After that is accomplished, and all citizens that want a job has one. All social benefits should be ended. Tariffs on foreign imports will protect domestic industries while they offer jobs to citizens. That is Protectionist Capitalism as the founders intended it to work. No one, not you or your hero fletch can produce a more perfect plan, without of course so fantasies.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater ment in the unemployed. This would NOT recover with the opening of other businesses. Walmart employs literally entire communities in some cases. That before Walmart established a store in their communities there was NO employment in the first place. So the fallacy that those who know NOTHING about economics try to imply about the mom and pop stores dominating before Walmart came is BS completely. The few that did close as compared to those that had nothing before Walmart
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Don't attempt to tell me you mom and pop stores didn't exist, I remember when there was am mom and pop store on just about every corner, in every neighborhood. Families lived off the incomes of operating those stores. Wallmart, and giant retailers did run them out of business, and concentrated that income into the hands of a few investers instead of across society. George Soros said the very notion of equilibrium is false. I think I will take his world for that instead of your
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater you are advocating they would hate your guts. Their lives are improved because of Walmart. As I said it's in a factory or in a Rice field for a 1/4 of the money. In regards to business. With the savings that people obtain from Walmart, it gives the opportunity for specialty businesses to open for people to take expendable cash and use it for other things. Coffee shops, video game stores, tobacco stores, clothing stores etc... Stores that could not exist without the middle and
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Of course I'm talking about Soros. Then some obscure candidate that I haven't heard of, and that is part for the course for what I would expect out of you. You are the type to follow Zeitgeist or whatever new age BS comes down the pike. Totally focused on your agenda, abandoning any common sense others have instinctively. My guess is you are very young, or have some mental issues. You get on here and troll to argue a universally rejected tenet. Fletch and I gave not talked,
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Speaking of a universally rejected tenet. Did you know that free trade has been rejected by the american people. We just cannot find a candidate that will support the issue.Uninformed folks thought that Obama was the man, but those of us paying close attention knew he was only a puppet of the globalization crowd (that be you). Did you know that the top three Microsoft officers ownes more wealth than the combined assets of the 43 least developed countries. 600 million people
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Tariffs would end Wallmarts reign, domestic industries world hire workers, walmart would be forced to pay living wages, mom and pop stores world open up again, the wealth concentraded into a few investers coffers would be spread across the entire economy. Many woud recieve some, instead of a few recieving all. Spreading the wealth over the entire economy is what the founders had in mind. Free trade concentrates wealth into the hands of asian investers, not the entire population
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater This is why you have no business blogging and talking. This will be my final discussion with you. In your world this would be the result. I have a degree in this I assure you this will not be the result. What will happen is this. Millions of people first in foremost will be out of work. There would be no immediate change in new business opening. It takes time due to licensing, LLC establishment, building etc... This is not quick by any means. So there would be a huge advance
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 I would announce a year in advance that the U.S. would be imposing tariffs on foreign goods. That would give invester a year to invest in the manufacturing ameica needs to sustain itself.
Hey listen ignorant just because you have spent your life under a tub, doesn't mean I am going to quit informing others that they are being hoodwinked by free trade. You are a Chicken Rooting for Colonial Saders. You acturally believe you are one of the elitist, instead of a guitar picker.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater at their business? When Walmart can hire 100's? And the mom and pop can survive on local traffic. In my community we have a hardware store, auto parts store that still survive due to it's 20 min to get to the nearest Walmart. So yes your mom and pops closing is a lie, a fallacy. Give me the numbers in hard data of the businesses closing. It doesn't exist. Now, that is competition in every aspect working in the free market. Next China. Will it change imports? NO! Small and Big
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuWalmart encourages outsourcing, they do not defend their business model, they openly admit seeking out the cheapest labor in the world. The people working in the factories producing products for walmart live in squalor, yards away from the state of the art factories that produce the products for export to walmart. Is this the conditions you want your 401K to gain your retirement on. I would think again if I were you. I personally do not want to retire off the backs of third world peasants. 2
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Sherrod Brown, describes the conditions of trade free zones in Nicaragua. The companys operating in these trade free zones pay employees .21 cents for every pair of jeans they sew together. They are sold to walmart for $7.00 and Walmart retails them in the american market for $25.00. Now I ask you are you proud of the fact that someone in Nicaragua sews them together for ,21 measly cents. If you justify that kind of exploitation you are insinsitive, and an exploiter yourself. 3
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater those of us who think the way we both do have come through all types of beliefs until things clear up for us. In other words, we are deeper, more knowledgeable. One of my professors said that Smiths invisible hand is NOT invisible, it is only to agenda driven minds! Minds like yours. I spelled it out for you on here. Others will read our last exchange and dismiss you!
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Wow what a joke, you spelled out what? That you support businesses that works poor people in state of the art factories, and sends them home to dirt floor huts. You also support the philosophy they are glad to have the job, when the multinationals that creates these trade free zones, supported by the governments of these third world countries. Desinged without worker protections, labor unions are illegal, these people earn .30 to .40 cents an hour. Yea you spelled it out alrigh
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater You have lost. I put it out there in plain English. As I have said. You sound as if you are in your first economic debate class in college. With an idea that you are "really going to show them". But you would be exposed quickly. You would get a lot of eye rolls and chuckles as you blew out your agenda. The same as I did. Yes Louie, you have been schooled. You have been exposed. And I have had a laugh at your expense. It is time for you to move on. Debate children. Make it fair
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 The closest you ever came to a economic debate in college was a government sponsored trade school at your local community college. Admit it you are a clown who picks the guitar on weekends at the local bars, unsually free, or for drinks. You probably earn you income from the local walmart and social services pays your bills for you. You probably have the fantasy that someday you will be another superstar, you are the epitome of the starving artist syndrome. Nice try
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater You are an amateur. I have ran into some who can actually debate key points. I have disagreements with them on certain things, but the are certainly in the ball park of discussing key issues. You are not. It's not only that you are an ideologue, but that you are so off base. You have read theory from sources that are not only off their rocker, but dangerous as well. Such as a George Soros. I suggest you stay off youtube. Find a blog where they are at your level.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGui Hey, If a key point came down the street in a red hat you could not recognize it. You are so oblivious to the events taking over your own country that you actually believe it is a liberal or conservative problem. You have not figured out that it doesn't matter who controlls the politics of the country nothing ever changes. Brain dead supporters of austrin ecomomic theory should not be posting on these forums. Most, do believe they are taking theory, you acturally believe it is science.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Louie, I can see you getting prepared to jump on your laptop. You put on a gimp mask and a ball gag, then you get on and race to a Milton Friedman or Austrian site. You find someone, and then spout off your ludicrous new age concepts so those like myself will spank you for days on end. Well I have got news for you Louie, I am onto your masochistic game, and I have had enough. My arm is tired, go let someone else spank you for awhile.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Is that what Guitar Pickers do in your neck of the woods. I quote " SPANK PEOPLE" wow how sick. Logically ; that must be where you mentality is, because whatever is in your heart comes out your mouth. So you must spend a great deal of your time meditating on: I quote "SPANKING PEOPLE". No---- My motive for being here is to help you abandon the brainwashing you have recieved, and to explain to you that Austrin Economics is theory, and free trade has never existed anywhere.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater America is the greatest country in the world. We for the first part of our History largely had free markets and trade. Our own money and no bank as well. No, sorry, their is a reason I said what I said. You have been spanked so hard that you MUST enjoy it. Now as I said gimpy, move along. There are others out here that would enjoy spanking you too for days on end. Shoo Shoo Shoo
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Su The reason you said what you said is because you are a sick sodomasochist. That is apparant that, that activity is a dominant part of you thought life, or you world have never brought it up in the context of a economics arguement. America started as a portectionist economy and stayed there for 200 years, furthermore we prospered like no other country in the world, as long as we protected our economy. It wasn't untill a few decided to prosper off the hardships of their own countrymen.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater You are a gimp. It is evident. You go to sites to get around people who actually have common sense and have a clue. Why? It makes no sense. I'm sure that you like to be bashed. We have serious discussions. We actually try to sort through serious problems with only slight variations in opinions. My mind can be changed on some things. LibertyPens channel has done that on quite a few things. You are out to lunch. It's like a geeky kid trying to box a jock. YOU are the sado gimp!
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 No I go to sites with the intention of teaching those who actually don't know the forces that has befell their country. Some is just plain to dumb to understand, (that be you) that they are being hoodwinked by those who have the economic power in the country. You are stupid enough to believe globalization should serve investment, instead of people. Working third world populations for .20 to .30 an hour, and shipping the products to the U.S. is not serving people.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater If that were true you would understand what actually has been destroying the country. You do not have a clue. And in regards to the .20 .30 an hour. That is untrue. But even if it wasn't do you know what would happen to those people if our companies were not there? What would actually be their situation? If they knew you wanted to pull all companies out of their country to "help" them out? They would hate your guts and you would be intentionally starving millions. You dumbass
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Hey you troitorous prick, what has happened to our people when they are not here. Half of america does not pay federal taxes now because they do not have the income to reach the federal tax threshold. To manufacture in the third world, and ship back to the U.S. only destroys our economy. How could you be so ignorant to your surroundings. You expect people to believe you have a degree in economics. Why don't you find a site and debate Keynesian, vs Austrin that kind of dribble.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Exactly. You fix that by deregulation and taxation relief. Otherwise you are FORCING the companies to stay here and pay huge wages to union members who are coerced bu thuggery by union representatives. Then you get Chrysler, and GM which inevitably fail. Then tax payers come in and bail out a company who should go under deserving so for allowing them to make concessions they can't possibly provide. Thank you for making my argument. You really are a putz
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 Huge wages-- What--- paying people a living wage for there labor is huge wages. What would you prefure for you countrymen .20/hr. If you are so against regulation I hope someone builds a pig farm next door to you, and dumps the waste into the stream that runs behind your house. I hope they build a coal burning power plant at the edge of your city and you are down wind from it so that it will have maximum effect on your lungs. Tariffs portects our society and denys our market.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 You mean allowing multinationals free access to our markets is the responsability of our society. Our society does not exist so multinational corporations has a market for their products. Our society exists for each individual in the society, not so a few CEO and investers in the corporation can prosper. The founders in their wisdom knew that, so they set in motion a protected economy. If you have the brain, you should notice that corps. love controlled societies like Asia.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater You are ridiculous. You have been beaten thoroughly. shoo gimp shoo
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@Super Why don't you just admit that you have been brainwashed by the global plutocracy. You are content with the redistribution of the american middleclasses wealth to the thirdworld. That you somehow believe you will be exempt from the declining living standards of the west. That you are ready ot trade in you U.S. citizenship for a global one. You don't have enough sense to figure out the global dangers in the collapse of western democracy, and it will collapse when dollars are sold off.
louiethegreater 1 year ago
@louiethegreater Once again you are an idiot. I have nothing more to say to you. Thank god you are in the minority. You aren't even in the minority. You do not have a clue do you? Not one clue. I can't argue issues with you because you are off your rocker. You are in a mental institution aren't you? You are really something. Shoo gimpy. Off with you. Go to Cuba. Your mental issues and views will fit right in. Castro would love you.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
@SuperGuitarman69 How does it feel to get your ignorant butt kicked on the issues. You are just to stupid to know the issues, less on understand them. You have no creditability and please don't embarrass yourself by telling folks you have a degree. That is comedy.
louiethegreater 1 year ago