completely agree with ben's reaction to this woman's suggestion that homeopathy cured cancer... cancer occasionally goes into spontaneous remission, folks, it's an extremely complex ailment whose mechanisms are not understood, but some people have real trouble comprehending real cause and effect it seems
You can read the book HOMEOPATHY CURES ALLOPATHY DOCTORS. In the book an Allopathy doctor and surgeon details how he cured many Allopathy doctors with Homeopathy medicines.
The israelites, who spawned all white people, including real jews, are going to crush the talmudists, communists, satanists and other perverts and cowards along with holoCOSTianity.
@NekoMouser You have the right to leave it alone but choose to attack peoples beliefs because you are incapable of educating yourself. Whether it's nutrition or healing or your own history, you pray to the blessed box to confirm your faith in holoCOSTianity.
Unfortunate that the discussion turns to angerand mud slinging, surely everyone has a choice on how they are to be treated and what they use to do it. I for one have had marvlous experiences with homeopathy, from the treatment of deep seated paranoia to infertility, now I have 3 children. Up until I was 30, Normal medicine made me and kept me continuously ill. I have used Homeopathy now for 30 years and for my children and have never been back to a doctor.
Ben goldacre is a lying toe-rag, i also have no doubt as a phsyciatrist, he is pushing the chemical cosh onto young children and messing up thier lives.
All this is about is doctors Self interest, end of story. When are they going to put the patient first for a change.
Some of the comments on this column are plain bigotry.
@sheradized No. You arguing that magic fairy dust will make everything go away is self-interest. You're a snake-oil believer and that's fine by me, but it just plain doesn't work and doctors claiming that it does are, to use your phrase, lying toerags. Your entire argument consists of buzzwords you picked up from the homeopathic weekly magazine (Bullshit Times) and panicky defence of the utterly indefensible. Your treatments don't work beyond placebos and your science is junk. Get out of my NHS.
@sheradized As a psychiatrist, you should be well aware that homeopathy is pseudo-scientific and only works by a placebo effect. Added to which the placebo effect is not a universal phenomenon. This is simply a waste of NHS money, and if you are a qualified doctor you should also be aware of the need for stringency and efficiency in the budget.
@sheradized If you have ever read Goldacre you would know that he bases his use of medicines on evidence based controlled experiment rather than anecdotal evidence or a firmly held belief that something will probably work. Medicine proscribed by doctors in the UK has to go through rigorous testing and years of peer assessment. You cannot (because you've mentioned psychiatry) argue that any non-tested cure for, say, depression will be greater than an assessed one. That's ignorance!
I must point out that some of dilutions that Homeopathy uses are impossible. One 300C concentration is impossible. If you filled the universe with water, and had one molecule of a substance, that is 55C. And also, I know it is impossible for water molecules to "remember" molecular impressions for more than a few pico seconds let alone a lifetime, which is the claim homeopaths make. For more reading, look up Bad Science on Amazon. Well worth the read.
My two guests - Dr Ben Goldacre and Witch-Doctor Hans Schrauder. Next up , a debate on the flatness of the earth between a Geologist and a naked man..... FFS! , 'balanced' does not mean giving air time to snake oil salesmen!
Yeah, the demand for solid scientific study and actual verifiable empirical evidence for claims--especially those that affect one's health--is downright insane and needs to be stopped immediately.
@blankcasilva You're a clown. You think there isn't big money in homeopathic medicine? Let's put it this way, if it worked, then big pharma would pick it up and market it. Why wouldn't they? Your pathetic argument makes NO sense.
@rossl0201 Pathetic argument? At least I don't need to offend the others by calling them names to make a point. Go take care of your makeup. You must be really good at it!
As I said before:
I challenge any of you ceptics to take a homeopathyc medicine and see if after a while you wont present any pathogenetic symptom...
I started drifting off in the middle of Schrauder's monologue about RCTs (or something), and idly checked my Facebook page... Unfortunately, having done this I am now undoubtedly going to develop cancer. Thanks Hans.
Ah, I get it - homeopathy things it can give itself a free pass to declare itself outside of scientific accountability. The BBC's obsession with being 'impartial' leads to shitty coverage like this. Either your hypothesis passes the test, or you're wrong - that's how it works.
BBC 'balance' rearing it's ugly head again. What's next? 'conventional' flying with aircraft VS 'alternative' flight with flying carpets? Homeopathy is a money maker but a sham
Homeopathy works and is the most advanced science of healing, scientists has proved it,(search IIT BOMBAY HOMEOPATHY) and the research paper appeared in PEER reviewed well established journal and the result was published after 4 years of study on nanotechnology and homeopathy by scientists of IIT Bombay.
This definitely shows that HOMEOPATHY is the MOST ADVANCED science of healing and medicine of present and future.
Real is scientific homeopathy. It cures even when Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM) fails. Evidence-based modern homeopathy is a nano-medicine bringing big results for everyone
@DrNancyMalik How, in any shape or form, is it a "nano-medicine" ? There's nothing nano about homeopathy - or indeed even molecular. In fact, how is it even a medicine ?
How hopelessly biased is the BBC's interviewer? Taking everything the homeopath says at face value and then airily whining on at Goldacre as if he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's some kind of party pooper for criticising NHS funding for it.
If homeopathy can be tested scientifically in double blind, controlled studies as against animals, then why is that suddenly, according to this crank's own assertion, homeopathy cannot be tested in the same manner (double blind, etc) as against human beings? His entire claim makes no sense at all. He is also outright lying when he claims that homeopathy does not attempt to cure any particular illness. What a crock of pure bullshit.
Homeopathic pills containing naturally occurring metals such as gold, copper and iron retain their potency even when diluted to a nanometre or one-billionth of a metre, states the IIT-Bombay research published in the latest issue of 'Homeopathy', a peer-reviewed journal from reputed medical publishing firm Elsevier
IIT-B's chemical engineering department bought homeopathic pills from neighbourhood shops, prepared highly diluted solutions and checked these under powerful electron microscopes to find nanoparticles of the original metal.
IIT-B's chemical engineering department bought homeopathic pills from neighbourhood shops, prepared highly diluted solutions and checked these under powerful electron microscopes to find nanoparticles of the original metal
Ben Goldacre of them has a Doctor in front of his name, studied at Oxford and UCL, is a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is a fellow of Kings College London and Nuffield College Oxford. Hans Schrauder, as far as I can tell from the websites of various organizations he's affiliated with, has received no medical training. Why is he even appearing next to him?
I'm so tired of homeopaths pointing to studies performed on animals, plants, or small children to say that it does more than just a placebo effect because doing so completely ignores the possibility that something else might be causing the observed effect other than the drug; its not black and white (as in "its a placebo effect or its effective") like that. There are a number of other things that could be causing it to get better such as conditioning or even just being in contact with humans.
I will give credence to homoeopaths when and only when they are prepared to self-infect with rabies then cure themselves only with their so-called remedies.
So much for impartial broadcasting on the BBC. This is outrageous, the presenter was totally biased and didn't give Ben Goldacre any right to response to what that idiot was saying.
A recent study in the International Journal of Oncology demonstrated that four ultra-diluted homeopathic medicines exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against two breast cancer cell lines
Frenkel M et al. (2010): Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells. International Journal of Oncology, 36: 395-403.
Randi has offered a million $ if yoou can show any quack medicine works. So far he has kept his money. Homeopathy is a con. Or why do they not submit it to clinical trial like PROPER medice HAS to be.!
@blackbeltste but don't doctors do that with their vile ivf and other treatments under the guise of oh yeah we can treat you on the NHS but as a private patient
tv.. tv is real life so his tie is off centre, at least he has one on
Sounds like Schrauder believes that whilst your body is in "proper balance" you can successfully ward off a Malaria infection. It isn't until your "balance" is off that you become susceptible to Malaria.
I'm not sure you could ever prove this to be the case. It's a Philosophy that can't be disproved if one is willing to believe it. In this case homeopathy is no different than any religious belief, or magical thinking, i.e. leprechauns, etc.
I am no fan of Homeopathy, however, placebo makes people better, a tested fact. Therefore to tell a patient "this pill is going to make you feel better" when handing over a placebo, is not a lie. It is a truth based on proved research.
@wandotube it sets a very dangerous precedent (doctors could begin administering untested, experimental drugs or treatments to patients on the basis that the patient has no right to know what he's being given) and in any case, the placebo only goes so far: a strong placebo would certainly help in fighting cancer, but it's far, far from enough. many brave people have fought cancer with only their minds alone right to the end, and i think it shames them to imply they just didn't give it their all.
I am no fan of Homeopathy, however, placebo makes people better, a tested fact. Therefore to tell a patient "this pill is going to make you feel better" when handing over a placebo, is not a lie. It is a truth based on proved research.
@wandotube Placebo doens't actually "make you better". It can subjectively (in some) reduce their perception of pain, but this never has long term effects. That which is causing you pain can either mend itself in time, or wax and wane in time.
SO... if you have a stiff neck, and you take these pills and your subjective account of pain is reduced for a couple days while your neck muscles relax, then behold the placebo effect.
But if you have a herniated disc, you will be worse in a few days.
@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
@wandotube Herniated disc was used to make a point. If it is a proven fact, how can it be that Ben is the first to acknowledge it?
you are making a mistake though, a placebo doens't CURE anything. it just might change ones perception of pain in the short term. that is the distinction. a placebo is not medicine, but if the person taking it thinks it's medicine, they might react to it positively or negatively based on the perception. the doc has to deceive the patient to make them think this.
@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
Ok, I realise the argument is what's important here, but I personally quite like the massive Ben Goldacre head looming in the background over the n00bs.
The hostess was terrible. Ugh. She's almost as stupid as Fox News pundits.
Amusing how Schrauder tries to make a special claim that homeopathy can't be tested by standard scientific testing. And claims that it works on animals?? Where's the data for THAT?
Typical media interview, just as they get to an important point ie Ben clearing up how the placebo effect works in animals they suddenly run out of time.
Let us be practical than fighting each other. If any body wants to find the effectivenes of Homeopathy he may do the following experiment .Take a dose of 4-6 globules of NUX VOMICA 30 four times a day for 14 days.Once you develop any signs/symptoms, administration of drug is to stop immediately. The symtoms will disappear its own with in period of 7 days . During the course of proving, use of any other medications or stimulants is restricted.
I hate the Animal cant feel Placebo argument, in many cases placebo is mistaken for Confounding variables, i.e some other factor which contributes to the improved condition, in animals this is almost certantly gonna be the fact that they get better anyway (regardless of any homeopathy)!
hans said it himself, so long as you tell people you believe your treatment is effective. then your not really lying. what a crock of shit. too much emphasis on quack belief, not enough on the evidence.
"Homeopathy will do nothing for cancer??" "What about for epilepsy then????" If your answer is "no" you need to develop a ear for hearing /////////////////ben, you need to open up your head and heart.
Shame on you bbc, perhaps a scientifically literate person should lead this section of news next time? Out of interest does anyone know who the mp's were who lead this initiative?
So Benny Boy feels uncomfortable that doctors would have to lie to patients if Homeopathy was validated as a treatment.
Funny, they seem to have no problem giving chemotherapy when they know the benfits are effectively non-existant for the vast majority of metastatic cases.
Again, double standards, but of course most people are too devoid of objectivity to see that, so clowns like Goldacre can continue to apparently 'do well' in these debates despite regurgitating tired old cliches.
If you have to lie to patients to take advantage of the placebo effect why bother even spending money on homeopathy when there are other cheaper ways of taking advantage of the placebo effect?
"no problem giving chemotherapy when they know the benfits are effectively non-existant"
Its action is demonstrable - it affects cancer cells. Wheres the evidence for water having memory?
Also see: Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with individualised homeopathic remedies verusu placebo. Rheumatology(Oxford) 2004 May,43 (5): 577-82
A recent study in the International Journal of Oncology demonstrated that four ultra-diluted homeopathic medicines exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against two breast cancer cell lines.
Frenkel M et al. (2010): Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells. International Journal of Oncology, 36: 395-403.
@mohanaturo you need to actually read your references before u comment on them. 'Further in-depth studies with additional cell lines and animal models are warranted to explore the clinical applicability of these agents.' this is from the ABSTRACT even, all i had to do was google it and already this study is looking weaker. also add to the fact that they only studied cell lines, not actual reduction in breast cancer tumors in live patients.
Goog "Tim Minchin - Storm" or "Richard Dawkins vs Homeopathy" on YouTube.
Oh, why would anyone in his/her right mind consider wolfsbane, birch bark et cetera, to be homeopathic remedies when none of those are the result of serial dilution? I love those defenders of homeopathy who appear to not even know what defines homeopathy!
Source: Integrative Medicine Programme-Unit 145, Department of molecular Pathology The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Cehter, Houston, TX 77030 -4009 USA
@arnicaworks no it really, really hasnt. although with a name like "arnicaworks", im inclined to say you have little interest in hearing the other side of the argument.
I use the name arnicaworks because that is what is does. You are wrong because actually I am always interested in hearing the other side of the argument in anything, that's why I am here chatting with you guys. I can understand why people are sceptical about homeopathy. The first time a friend persuaded me to see a homeopath, when all else failed to cure a medical condition I had, I was a total sceptic. A few days after treatment when all symptoms had gone I was converted.
@billysue2 My evidence then was based on one day I was very sick, had homeopathy and then next day was better. But you can look at the Berlin Journal on Research in Homeopathy, 1,4/5, 286-287 December 1991 for evidence.
@arnicaworks Are you sure it was the homeopathy which had effect or the placebo effect or even other conventional medicines that you took in the same time whilst this happened? Where is the other evidence for example that water has memory? That then you have to consider the fact that homeopathic "medicines" are diluted so much that the concentration is well below Avagadro's limit.
There are a plenty of publications in recognized journals showing homeopathy works well beyond placebo. Just look up the Lancet publications of the end of 2005.
Ben Goldacre has his degree in medicine from Oxford, which means he is a "real doctor" he just chose to do his thesis in psychiatry, which is simply his area of interest. And knowing Goldacre, I'm sure he'd agree on the subject of ECT.
Well some people have a medical degree and then go in to homeopathy, but nobody looks at them as "real doctors".
Also you said psychiatry was only an area of interest but he has worked in the NHS as a psychiatrist. That can hardly be described as..."simply an area of interest".
Lastly if he thinks ECT is "quackery" why doesn't he say so? Why doesn't he do a big article and call for a ban on the treatment?
I think you were missing my point on the first thing there. If you have a degree in medicine, you can be considered qualified enough to appraise scientific literature and make statistical analyses competantly.
That is true, but I can see you're anti-psychiatry and I feel that this is a linked issue, but would probably go off on a tangent.
im not sure making a point on something Goldacre hasnt covered in his column yet means that he doesnt know what he's talking about.
Homoeopathy helps thousands upon thousands of people and the funding it gets from the NHS is a drop in the ocean. Why doesn't Ben Goldacre focus his energy on something that is doing good, he came across very badly in this interview and that is because he doesn't actually know anything about homoeopathy, I wonder if he has even tried it. Homoeopathy treats an individual and I for one have seen it cure many ailments, in adults, children and animals...choose freedom of choice.
Clearly Ben knows nothing about homeopathy, he's only studied 100's of trials into its effectiveness and cites them in arguments.
To ask if he's ever tried it is redundant. You've never tried nosediving from a 747 without a parachute, you know it won't cure your athletes foot though =D
he does focus his energy on doing good: trying to enforce rigorous measures to ensure medicine data is unbiased. It just so happens (shock horror) that homeopathy is one of the worst offenders in biasing.
Freedom of choice is no good when you're shelling out all your cash for quack medicine while there are NHS treatments that could be implemented far more effectively... and for free.
"posing" as a medical expert? he's a doctor! who else could be considered a better expert on the matter of public health than a doctor with highly respected qualifications?
A better expert would be a doctor with some hand-on knowledge on the subject he's talking about. Unfortunately he does not write about psychiatry, but homeopathy, misquotes trial results, gives false info on medial issues (such as mortality in untreated cholera), passes judgment on his peers with good standing. Other than that I have no problem with him.
actually... he doesnt. a lot of bad science commenters are medicine undergrads, post grads and doctors and if he is a little incorrect, they tell him and he corrects himself. if you're going to call for evidence-based medicine its important to understand when you're wrong and Goldacre obliges by those rules.
I take your point in good faith and I will read more of him. So far I've heard from his followers statements such as the ones above which are based on conviction, opinion and belief, not science.
What a disgraceful interview. The homeopathy guy gets several minutes to spout uninterrupted nonsense about "not being able to test it via normal trials". Then Dr Goldacre is constantly interrupted by the presenter. Typical BBC mince
The BBC bitch.
leffehoegaarden 1 month ago
Didn't Nucky Thompson have Hans Schrauder murdered?
Bot23 2 months ago
also extremely frustrating when people use anecdotes in arguments, because what can you possibly say to an anecdote other than "you're wrong"?
terrasweet 2 months ago
@terrasweet You say "citation needed."
syn010110 1 month ago
completely agree with ben's reaction to this woman's suggestion that homeopathy cured cancer... cancer occasionally goes into spontaneous remission, folks, it's an extremely complex ailment whose mechanisms are not understood, but some people have real trouble comprehending real cause and effect it seems
terrasweet 2 months ago
It is funny how pseudo-scientists argue.
brandonpsychology 3 months ago
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You can read the book HOMEOPATHY CURES ALLOPATHY DOCTORS. In the book an Allopathy doctor and surgeon details how he cured many Allopathy doctors with Homeopathy medicines.
mohanaturo 3 months ago
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The israelites, who spawned all white people, including real jews, are going to crush the talmudists, communists, satanists and other perverts and cowards along with holoCOSTianity.
oveid 3 months ago
@NekoMouser You have the right to leave it alone but choose to attack peoples beliefs because you are incapable of educating yourself. Whether it's nutrition or healing or your own history, you pray to the blessed box to confirm your faith in holoCOSTianity.
oveid 3 months ago
Unfortunate that the discussion turns to angerand mud slinging, surely everyone has a choice on how they are to be treated and what they use to do it. I for one have had marvlous experiences with homeopathy, from the treatment of deep seated paranoia to infertility, now I have 3 children. Up until I was 30, Normal medicine made me and kept me continuously ill. I have used Homeopathy now for 30 years and for my children and have never been back to a doctor.
MrSafwar21 3 months ago
'right you snakeoil peddling homeopath i have my big rifle of evidence aimed squarely at your piggy head!' ARGH "KNOWLEDGE!"
greysuitblacktie 4 months ago
Both the cunt presenter and Hans fuckface need to wake the fuck up. Ben Goldacre should never be silenced
eightbitheros 4 months ago
If u beleive it just do it....take a 30c concoction of fizzy all and darwin award youself out of evolution....man how liberal of me
ShootingCans 4 months ago
Ben goldacre is a lying toe-rag, i also have no doubt as a phsyciatrist, he is pushing the chemical cosh onto young children and messing up thier lives.
All this is about is doctors Self interest, end of story. When are they going to put the patient first for a change.
Some of the comments on this column are plain bigotry.
sheradized 4 months ago
@sheradized No. You arguing that magic fairy dust will make everything go away is self-interest. You're a snake-oil believer and that's fine by me, but it just plain doesn't work and doctors claiming that it does are, to use your phrase, lying toerags. Your entire argument consists of buzzwords you picked up from the homeopathic weekly magazine (Bullshit Times) and panicky defence of the utterly indefensible. Your treatments don't work beyond placebos and your science is junk. Get out of my NHS.
leaguesmanoframsgate 4 months ago
@sheradized As a psychiatrist, you should be well aware that homeopathy is pseudo-scientific and only works by a placebo effect. Added to which the placebo effect is not a universal phenomenon. This is simply a waste of NHS money, and if you are a qualified doctor you should also be aware of the need for stringency and efficiency in the budget.
MrJhall52 4 months ago
@sheradized If you have ever read Goldacre you would know that he bases his use of medicines on evidence based controlled experiment rather than anecdotal evidence or a firmly held belief that something will probably work. Medicine proscribed by doctors in the UK has to go through rigorous testing and years of peer assessment. You cannot (because you've mentioned psychiatry) argue that any non-tested cure for, say, depression will be greater than an assessed one. That's ignorance!
DKukiewicz 4 months ago
@sheradized
good reply
DKukiewicz 3 months ago
I must point out that some of dilutions that Homeopathy uses are impossible. One 300C concentration is impossible. If you filled the universe with water, and had one molecule of a substance, that is 55C. And also, I know it is impossible for water molecules to "remember" molecular impressions for more than a few pico seconds let alone a lifetime, which is the claim homeopaths make. For more reading, look up Bad Science on Amazon. Well worth the read.
theshadowling1 4 months ago
First thing the homeopath says: It doesn't cure cancer.
Second thing the homeopath says: It's not a placebo because we do it.
CannonLongshot 5 months ago
My two guests - Dr Ben Goldacre and Witch-Doctor Hans Schrauder. Next up , a debate on the flatness of the earth between a Geologist and a naked man..... FFS! , 'balanced' does not mean giving air time to snake oil salesmen!
CryptSphinx 5 months ago 5
The BBC is definitely biased in favour of homeopathy.
joel8lyric 5 months ago
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Goldacre is a narrow minded programmed drone. The dude can't think outside his own narrow field of thinking...
vitaminboss 5 months ago
@vitaminboss
Yeah, the demand for solid scientific study and actual verifiable empirical evidence for claims--especially those that affect one's health--is downright insane and needs to be stopped immediately.
NekoMouser 5 months ago 11
to be fair she does have a point that there's nothing wrong with lying to patients
MrOdsplut 5 months ago
A placebo effect will only ever treat the symptoms! That's why the NHS need to stop funding it and the BBC need to stop giving it air time!
maskofsan1ty 6 months ago
God even the UK news loves magic
theUSER101 7 months ago
She was ridiculously biased, going after Goldacre and merrily taking the waffling homeopath at his word.
Sugar pills are not viable medicine, never will be, the science behind them is farcical and ridiculous.
Ignitionnet 8 months ago
@Ignitionnet Well said, i agree totally. Anecdotal evidence is not an acceptable basis for medicine
SuperStoves 5 months ago 6
What a biased bitch. Also, Ben Goldacres faces at 1:17 - 1:23 when she says homepathy cured cancer are priceless
youxknowxyouxluvxit 8 months ago
Political reasons? Tell me about all the profits the farmaceutical industry have and the power of influence this can have on the media and politics...
I challenge any of you ceptics to take a homeopathyc medicine and see if after a while you wont present any pathogenetic symptom...
blankcasilva 9 months ago
@blankcasilva You're a clown. You think there isn't big money in homeopathic medicine? Let's put it this way, if it worked, then big pharma would pick it up and market it. Why wouldn't they? Your pathetic argument makes NO sense.
rossl0201 6 months ago 2
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@rossl0201 Pathetic argument? At least I don't need to offend the others by calling them names to make a point. Go take care of your makeup. You must be really good at it!
As I said before:
I challenge any of you ceptics to take a homeopathyc medicine and see if after a while you wont present any pathogenetic symptom...
blankcasilva 6 months ago 2
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toniroxxxxx 9 months ago
@toniroxxxxx
No it doesn't.
pianoplayeruk 6 months ago
@pianoplayeruk ok, thank you for your feedback. I will, therefore, retract my comment because of its inaccuracy.
toniroxxxxx 6 months ago
Methinks, the anchor takes the odd homeopathic remedy
TheCelticChimp 9 months ago 3
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This must be the first time I've been glad to read Youtube comments.
Keep Skeptical people!
AtheismandSkepticism 9 months ago
"the vital froce" Oh come on! It's our immune system and we know a great deal about it.
reafdaw01 9 months ago
Yeah....yeah it is a placebo effect.
TheAnarchyfilms 10 months ago
I started drifting off in the middle of Schrauder's monologue about RCTs (or something), and idly checked my Facebook page... Unfortunately, having done this I am now undoubtedly going to develop cancer. Thanks Hans.
jaffacakesarenice 10 months ago
So depressing. Hans Schrauder...what a moron. Ben goldacre...what a legend.
commontongues 10 months ago
Ah, I get it - homeopathy things it can give itself a free pass to declare itself outside of scientific accountability. The BBC's obsession with being 'impartial' leads to shitty coverage like this. Either your hypothesis passes the test, or you're wrong - that's how it works.
0mniaV1nc1t 11 months ago
BBC 'balance' rearing it's ugly head again. What's next? 'conventional' flying with aircraft VS 'alternative' flight with flying carpets? Homeopathy is a money maker but a sham
wearefused 11 months ago 2
Ben Goldacre is a legend!
Compy01 11 months ago 2
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Homeopathy works and is the most advanced science of healing, scientists has proved it,(search IIT BOMBAY HOMEOPATHY) and the research paper appeared in PEER reviewed well established journal and the result was published after 4 years of study on nanotechnology and homeopathy by scientists of IIT Bombay.
This definitely shows that HOMEOPATHY is the MOST ADVANCED science of healing and medicine of present and future.
drchristoaa 1 year ago
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@drchristoaa banhomeopathy.blogspot.com/2010/12/fake-scientists-of-iit-bombay.html
TheAnarchyfilms 10 months ago
Real is scientific homeopathy. It cures even when Conventional Allopathic Medicine (CAM) fails. Evidence-based modern homeopathy is a nano-medicine bringing big results for everyone
DrNancyMalik 1 year ago
@DrNancyMalik How, in any shape or form, is it a "nano-medicine" ? There's nothing nano about homeopathy - or indeed even molecular. In fact, how is it even a medicine ?
qcaudron 1 year ago
Ben Goldenacre was right to take this idiotic interviewer to task for saying homoeopathy cured someone of cancer.
Yet she questions pretty much everything he says and then just nods along with a guy selling bottled water to sick people. Sigh.
ProphetTenebrae 1 year ago
What a farse; the BBC should have done much better than to treat Ben Goldacre like that.
cyclonenimrod 1 year ago 2
How hopelessly biased is the BBC's interviewer? Taking everything the homeopath says at face value and then airily whining on at Goldacre as if he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's some kind of party pooper for criticising NHS funding for it.
Grrrr!
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago 4
My pet dog knew when it was being taken to the vet and dug its heels in. So I wouldn't rule out the placebo effect working on animals too.
audience2 1 year ago 3
I love how homeocrackpots contradict one another while talking about their claims.
Mapariensis 1 year ago
Got to say i expect more from the BBC that was handled awfully
aldunamesaretaken 1 year ago
Curing Cancer with homeopathy is "difficult". Understatement of the century.
hardinmichael1981 1 year ago
Schrauder? Wasn't it Frauder?
kenninast 1 year ago
If homeopathy can be tested scientifically in double blind, controlled studies as against animals, then why is that suddenly, according to this crank's own assertion, homeopathy cannot be tested in the same manner (double blind, etc) as against human beings? His entire claim makes no sense at all. He is also outright lying when he claims that homeopathy does not attempt to cure any particular illness. What a crock of pure bullshit.
Blndrfist 1 year ago
Homeopathic pills containing naturally occurring metals such as gold, copper and iron retain their potency even when diluted to a nanometre or one-billionth of a metre, states the IIT-Bombay research published in the latest issue of 'Homeopathy', a peer-reviewed journal from reputed medical publishing firm Elsevier
jamesbondking 1 year ago
@jamesbondking
if you don't know th difference between lenght and volume, then you're stupid
1997xander 1 year ago
IIT-B's chemical engineering department bought homeopathic pills from neighbourhood shops, prepared highly diluted solutions and checked these under powerful electron microscopes to find nanoparticles of the original metal.
jamesbondking 1 year ago
IIT-B's chemical engineering department bought homeopathic pills from neighbourhood shops, prepared highly diluted solutions and checked these under powerful electron microscopes to find nanoparticles of the original metal
jamesbondking 1 year ago
Ben Goldacre of them has a Doctor in front of his name, studied at Oxford and UCL, is a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is a fellow of Kings College London and Nuffield College Oxford. Hans Schrauder, as far as I can tell from the websites of various organizations he's affiliated with, has received no medical training. Why is he even appearing next to him?
QIElf 1 year ago 2
I'm so tired of homeopaths pointing to studies performed on animals, plants, or small children to say that it does more than just a placebo effect because doing so completely ignores the possibility that something else might be causing the observed effect other than the drug; its not black and white (as in "its a placebo effect or its effective") like that. There are a number of other things that could be causing it to get better such as conditioning or even just being in contact with humans.
ArcanaKnight 1 year ago
"Homeopathy works differently, it has to be tested and evaluated differently....." Well isn't that convenient!
cherryberry360 1 year ago 5
This presenter gotta be joking.
BBC, ffs fire that woman.
tungah 1 year ago 2
I will give credence to homoeopaths when and only when they are prepared to self-infect with rabies then cure themselves only with their so-called remedies.
tetenterre 1 year ago
So much for impartial broadcasting on the BBC. This is outrageous, the presenter was totally biased and didn't give Ben Goldacre any right to response to what that idiot was saying.
emilysadyke 1 year ago
I love Dr. Goldacre's shake of the head at the end.
cliffovski 1 year ago 53
Feb 13, 2010 HOMEOPATHY CURES BREAST CANCER
A recent study in the International Journal of Oncology demonstrated that four ultra-diluted homeopathic medicines exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against two breast cancer cell lines
Frenkel M et al. (2010): Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells. International Journal of Oncology, 36: 395-403.
mohanaturo 1 year ago
@mohanaturo Give it a go, mybe it will cure Idiot aswell
bromleyben2004 1 year ago
Randi has offered a million $ if yoou can show any quack medicine works. So far he has kept his money. Homeopathy is a con. Or why do they not submit it to clinical trial like PROPER medice HAS to be.!
SOAS007 1 year ago 2
Go hans!!!!!!!!!!!
mujibatt 1 year ago
Hans' tie is pissing me off.
blackbeltste 1 year ago
@blackbeltste and why is that
mujibatt 1 year ago
@mujibatt Well it's off centre isn't it. Dispicable behaviour from someone appearing on national T.V.
Oh and he is a filthy lying homeopath that prays on the gullible and naive to make money. He should be thrown in jail with all priests and vicars.
blackbeltste 1 year ago 3
@blackbeltste but don't doctors do that with their vile ivf and other treatments under the guise of oh yeah we can treat you on the NHS but as a private patient
tv.. tv is real life so his tie is off centre, at least he has one on
Hans is a hero...
mujibatt 1 year ago
@blackbeltste blackbelt in welfare claims more like hahaha
mujibatt 1 year ago
@mujibatt Damn straight
blackbeltste 1 year ago
god, that presenter women is such a bimbo
Yous111111 1 year ago 6
Not only let the wingnut get the final word in but guided him into replying to another point of Ben's. Hardly an unbiased journalist.
Maxdwolf 1 year ago
Sounds like Schrauder believes that whilst your body is in "proper balance" you can successfully ward off a Malaria infection. It isn't until your "balance" is off that you become susceptible to Malaria.
I'm not sure you could ever prove this to be the case. It's a Philosophy that can't be disproved if one is willing to believe it. In this case homeopathy is no different than any religious belief, or magical thinking, i.e. leprechauns, etc.
TheEarthAbides 1 year ago
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I am no fan of Homeopathy, however, placebo makes people better, a tested fact. Therefore to tell a patient "this pill is going to make you feel better" when handing over a placebo, is not a lie. It is a truth based on proved research.
wandotube 1 year ago
@wandotube it sets a very dangerous precedent (doctors could begin administering untested, experimental drugs or treatments to patients on the basis that the patient has no right to know what he's being given) and in any case, the placebo only goes so far: a strong placebo would certainly help in fighting cancer, but it's far, far from enough. many brave people have fought cancer with only their minds alone right to the end, and i think it shames them to imply they just didn't give it their all.
terrasweet 2 months ago
I am no fan of Homeopathy, however, placebo makes people better, a tested fact. Therefore to tell a patient "this pill is going to make you feel better" when handing over a placebo, is not a lie. It is a truth based on proved research.
wandotube 1 year ago
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TheEarthAbides 1 year ago
@wandotube Placebo doens't actually "make you better". It can subjectively (in some) reduce their perception of pain, but this never has long term effects. That which is causing you pain can either mend itself in time, or wax and wane in time.
SO... if you have a stiff neck, and you take these pills and your subjective account of pain is reduced for a couple days while your neck muscles relax, then behold the placebo effect.
But if you have a herniated disc, you will be worse in a few days.
TheEarthAbides 1 year ago
@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
wandotube 1 year ago
@wandotube Herniated disc was used to make a point. If it is a proven fact, how can it be that Ben is the first to acknowledge it?
you are making a mistake though, a placebo doens't CURE anything. it just might change ones perception of pain in the short term. that is the distinction. a placebo is not medicine, but if the person taking it thinks it's medicine, they might react to it positively or negatively based on the perception. the doc has to deceive the patient to make them think this.
TheEarthAbides 1 year ago
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@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
wandotube 1 year ago
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@TheEarthAbides Sorry but I don't quite get your point. Do you know of any medicine that can repair a herniated disc? I am not the one saying that placebo make you better. It is a proven fact and Ben Goldacre is the first one to acknowledge it. However Ben Goldacre thinks that treating people with placebo is a deception. I disagree. If the pill is going to make you feel better, it is not a deception to say so, regardless of whether the pill is a placebo or not.
wandotube 1 year ago
Girl has homoeopathic sugar pills in her brain.
luiseduardo586 1 year ago
Ok, I realise the argument is what's important here, but I personally quite like the massive Ben Goldacre head looming in the background over the n00bs.
RESPECT OUR NERD GOD
Oirishmartin 1 year ago
Fucking truth relativist presenter u.u
fatmanprime 1 year ago
The hostess was terrible. Ugh. She's almost as stupid as Fox News pundits.
Amusing how Schrauder tries to make a special claim that homeopathy can't be tested by standard scientific testing. And claims that it works on animals?? Where's the data for THAT?
SaganAppreciationSoc 1 year ago
Does the presenter know anything about this subject?
7677890 1 year ago
Ben won in my mind.
7677890 1 year ago
Typical media interview, just as they get to an important point ie Ben clearing up how the placebo effect works in animals they suddenly run out of time.
chrisofnottingham 1 year ago
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Let us be practical than fighting each other. If any body wants to find the effectivenes of Homeopathy he may do the following experiment .Take a dose of 4-6 globules of NUX VOMICA 30 four times a day for 14 days.Once you develop any signs/symptoms, administration of drug is to stop immediately. The symtoms will disappear its own with in period of 7 days . During the course of proving, use of any other medications or stimulants is restricted.
newrosenewman 1 year ago
Nooo, you can't let that animal thing pass by without a rebuttal! its so stupid
alexkidd3d 1 year ago 4
I hate the Animal cant feel Placebo argument, in many cases placebo is mistaken for Confounding variables, i.e some other factor which contributes to the improved condition, in animals this is almost certantly gonna be the fact that they get better anyway (regardless of any homeopathy)!
QuantumOverlord 1 year ago
Who else thinking that Hans has been popping some beta-blockers before this show?
azr43l2004 1 year ago
homeopathy is a step back with science and medicine, sigh...
KongMatthew119 1 year ago
She's obviously invested heavily in homeopath
waldoistwisted 1 year ago
someone needs to ask the BBC as to why a complete nutjob is allowed so much time compared Dr. Goldacre
lolxenulol 1 year ago 2
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5 META ANALYSES showing positive results on Homeopathy.
1. Cucherat et al 2000 16 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
2. Linde & Melchart 1998 32 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
3. Linde et al 1997 89 studies POSITIVE.
4. Boissel et al 1996 15 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
5. Kleijnen et al 1991 105 studies POSITIVE.
mohanaturo 3 months ago
mohanaturo 1 year ago
hans said it himself, so long as you tell people you believe your treatment is effective. then your not really lying. what a crock of shit. too much emphasis on quack belief, not enough on the evidence.
GreenFury1976 1 year ago
"Homeopathy will do nothing for cancer??" "What about for epilepsy then????" If your answer is "no" you need to develop a ear for hearing /////////////////ben, you need to open up your head and heart.
codyneel1 1 year ago
@codyneel1 Ben doesn't need anything but evidence which homeopathy lacks greatly.
TurboDally 1 year ago
Why the hell was this homeopathic nut allowed so much air time compared to the legendary Ben Goldacre.
Serpent0fEden 1 year ago 33
Hans is delusional.
The reporter chick doesn't seem to have any education beyond the 10th grade.
The only one in this trio with a shred of intellect is Ben Goldacre. Thank God he has more than enough to spare.
Reporter Chick: "The body heals itself? That sounds like Placebo!"
Jebus Christ.
Joe22c 1 year ago 3
Shame on you bbc, perhaps a scientifically literate person should lead this section of news next time? Out of interest does anyone know who the mp's were who lead this initiative?
cykolink 1 year ago 3
How badly moderated was that?!? I was shaking my head with Ben at the end of that.
psychedelicfungi 1 year ago
So Benny Boy feels uncomfortable that doctors would have to lie to patients if Homeopathy was validated as a treatment.
Funny, they seem to have no problem giving chemotherapy when they know the benfits are effectively non-existant for the vast majority of metastatic cases.
Again, double standards, but of course most people are too devoid of objectivity to see that, so clowns like Goldacre can continue to apparently 'do well' in these debates despite regurgitating tired old cliches.
merlin23 1 year ago
@merlin23 Whatever the case for chemotherapy really is, and it's a more complex issue than you present, it doesn't make homoeopathy work any better.
.
Doctors and drug companies do all sorts things wrong. But whatever they get up to, it doesn't make homoeopathy work any better.
Planes crash all the time. It doesn't mean I can fly by flapping my arms.
Dammit! I hate being trolled.
chrisofnottingham 1 year ago 2
@merlin23
If you have to lie to patients to take advantage of the placebo effect why bother even spending money on homeopathy when there are other cheaper ways of taking advantage of the placebo effect?
"no problem giving chemotherapy when they know the benfits are effectively non-existant"
Its action is demonstrable - it affects cancer cells. Wheres the evidence for water having memory?
TurboDally 1 year ago 2
Also see: Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with individualised homeopathic remedies verusu placebo. Rheumatology(Oxford) 2004 May,43 (5): 577-82
arnicaworks 1 year ago
Jesus, does the NHS fund homeopathy?! I'm going to stop paying tax.
andywaggott 1 year ago 2
Homeopathy remedy Ruta 6 selectively induces cell death in brain cancer cells but proliferation in normal peripheral blood lymphocytes:
A novel treatment for human brain cancer:
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF ONCOLOGY 23: 975-982, 2003
mohanaturo 2 years ago
@mohanaturo That isn't what it says you lying illiterate moron
salerio61 1 year ago
5 META ANALYSES showing positive results on Homeopathy.
1. Cucherat et al 2000 16 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
2. Linde & Melchart 1998 32 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
3. Linde et al 1997 89 studies POSITIVE.
4. Boissel et al 1996 15 Hi-Qt studies POSITIVE.
5. Kleijnen et al 1991 105 studies POSITIVE.
mohanaturo 2 years ago
Feb 13, 2010
A recent study in the International Journal of Oncology demonstrated that four ultra-diluted homeopathic medicines exerted preferential cytotoxic effects against two breast cancer cell lines.
Frenkel M et al. (2010): Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells. International Journal of Oncology, 36: 395-403.
mohanaturo 2 years ago
@mohanaturo you need to actually read your references before u comment on them. 'Further in-depth studies with additional cell lines and animal models are warranted to explore the clinical applicability of these agents.' this is from the ABSTRACT even, all i had to do was google it and already this study is looking weaker. also add to the fact that they only studied cell lines, not actual reduction in breast cancer tumors in live patients.
twofriedbananas 1 year ago
How slowly did he talk?! And what was the point in having Ben on there if the stupid woman was just going to talk over him all the time!
timminchinforpm 2 years ago 2
Goog "Tim Minchin - Storm" or "Richard Dawkins vs Homeopathy" on YouTube.
Oh, why would anyone in his/her right mind consider wolfsbane, birch bark et cetera, to be homeopathic remedies when none of those are the result of serial dilution? I love those defenders of homeopathy who appear to not even know what defines homeopathy!
DanHadan 2 years ago 2
LOL . No randomly controlled trials! What a joke.
muserock69 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Homeopathy has been shown to kill cancer cells in a test tube that cannot be placebo.
arnicaworks 2 years ago
@arnicaworks
Site your sources if you are to make a claim like that.
donutmcownage 2 years ago
Source: Integrative Medicine Programme-Unit 145, Department of molecular Pathology The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Cehter, Houston, TX 77030 -4009 USA
arnicaworks 2 years ago
@arnicaworks no it really, really hasnt. although with a name like "arnicaworks", im inclined to say you have little interest in hearing the other side of the argument.
joewhittles 2 years ago 2
I use the name arnicaworks because that is what is does. You are wrong because actually I am always interested in hearing the other side of the argument in anything, that's why I am here chatting with you guys. I can understand why people are sceptical about homeopathy. The first time a friend persuaded me to see a homeopath, when all else failed to cure a medical condition I had, I was a total sceptic. A few days after treatment when all symptoms had gone I was converted.
arnicaworks 2 years ago
@arnicaworks 1 anecdotal case proves nothing either way,you do know how evidence is evaluated dont you?
billysue2 1 year ago
@billysue2 My evidence then was based on one day I was very sick, had homeopathy and then next day was better. But you can look at the Berlin Journal on Research in Homeopathy, 1,4/5, 286-287 December 1991 for evidence.
arnicaworks 1 year ago
@arnicaworks Are you sure it was the homeopathy which had effect or the placebo effect or even other conventional medicines that you took in the same time whilst this happened? Where is the other evidence for example that water has memory? That then you have to consider the fact that homeopathic "medicines" are diluted so much that the concentration is well below Avagadro's limit.
TurboDally 1 year ago
There are a plenty of publications in recognized journals showing homeopathy works well beyond placebo. Just look up the Lancet publications of the end of 2005.
kiki10020 2 years ago
Just look up the Journal of Clinical Epidemiology 2008, Ludtke R, Rutten ALB.
konstanze70 2 years ago
Apparently he's not even a real doctor, he's a "psychiatrist" and psychiatrists still give ECT treatment.
If that isn't Quackery I don't know what is.
flyingdog100 2 years ago
Ben Goldacre has his degree in medicine from Oxford, which means he is a "real doctor" he just chose to do his thesis in psychiatry, which is simply his area of interest. And knowing Goldacre, I'm sure he'd agree on the subject of ECT.
joewhittles 2 years ago
Well some people have a medical degree and then go in to homeopathy, but nobody looks at them as "real doctors".
Also you said psychiatry was only an area of interest but he has worked in the NHS as a psychiatrist. That can hardly be described as..."simply an area of interest".
Lastly if he thinks ECT is "quackery" why doesn't he say so? Why doesn't he do a big article and call for a ban on the treatment?
flyingdog100 2 years ago
I think you were missing my point on the first thing there. If you have a degree in medicine, you can be considered qualified enough to appraise scientific literature and make statistical analyses competantly.
That is true, but I can see you're anti-psychiatry and I feel that this is a linked issue, but would probably go off on a tangent.
im not sure making a point on something Goldacre hasnt covered in his column yet means that he doesnt know what he's talking about.
joewhittles 2 years ago
Homoeopathy helps thousands upon thousands of people and the funding it gets from the NHS is a drop in the ocean. Why doesn't Ben Goldacre focus his energy on something that is doing good, he came across very badly in this interview and that is because he doesn't actually know anything about homoeopathy, I wonder if he has even tried it. Homoeopathy treats an individual and I for one have seen it cure many ailments, in adults, children and animals...choose freedom of choice.
JazziePB 2 years ago
Clearly Ben knows nothing about homeopathy, he's only studied 100's of trials into its effectiveness and cites them in arguments.
To ask if he's ever tried it is redundant. You've never tried nosediving from a 747 without a parachute, you know it won't cure your athletes foot though =D
gorypleasure 2 years ago
he does focus his energy on doing good: trying to enforce rigorous measures to ensure medicine data is unbiased. It just so happens (shock horror) that homeopathy is one of the worst offenders in biasing.
Freedom of choice is no good when you're shelling out all your cash for quack medicine while there are NHS treatments that could be implemented far more effectively... and for free.
joewhittles 2 years ago 2
Here's a young and healthy dude, twenty years before he might even need any medical care posing as an expert on medicine!
I thought he was much older, he sounded so authoritative in his bloggings, LOL!
konstanze70 2 years ago
Apparently he did not study - that is the problem.
I did not understand the meaning of the last sentence, could you explain please?
kiki10020 2 years ago
Comment removed
konstanze70 2 years ago
Sorry, I only read his writings on alt medicine quoted by others and imagined him much older.
konstanze70 2 years ago
"posing" as a medical expert? he's a doctor! who else could be considered a better expert on the matter of public health than a doctor with highly respected qualifications?
joewhittles 2 years ago
A better expert would be a doctor with some hand-on knowledge on the subject he's talking about. Unfortunately he does not write about psychiatry, but homeopathy, misquotes trial results, gives false info on medial issues (such as mortality in untreated cholera), passes judgment on his peers with good standing. Other than that I have no problem with him.
konstanze70 2 years ago
actually... he doesnt. a lot of bad science commenters are medicine undergrads, post grads and doctors and if he is a little incorrect, they tell him and he corrects himself. if you're going to call for evidence-based medicine its important to understand when you're wrong and Goldacre obliges by those rules.
joewhittles 2 years ago
I take your point in good faith and I will read more of him. So far I've heard from his followers statements such as the ones above which are based on conviction, opinion and belief, not science.
konstanze70 2 years ago
Ben Goldacre should go back to mending synthsisers. Apparently he knows something about synthesisers!
kevinjohnmorris 2 years ago
She doesn't seem to understand what a placebo effect is.
alexvegas 2 years ago 3
This is going to be sent this out?
Via all medias
Thank god my job allows me to do that in a big way!
Thank this country for freedom of choice!
Homeopathy is so big world wide, we need to get on board it's inevitable!
How many in this country go to homeopaths privatly, not the ones in homeopathic hospitals-(NHS), real ones who spend 4 years training ?
And how many millions do they save the NHS?
Is the goverment that stupid?
What's really the problem?
I wonder!
kishan2000 2 years ago
Awesome it's about time homeopaths had a chance to explain!
Animals and kids! Hmmmmm
Can't be a placibo then even the Dr against agreed!
Coooool I'm off to make appointment with a homeopath!
kishan2000 2 years ago
Dr. Goldacre did well in the light of the typical false balance.
An elephant and mouse shouldn't play on a swing.
miltmerm 2 years ago 39
Agreed, the presenter was absolutely awful.
kaihendry 2 years ago 40
What a disgraceful interview. The homeopathy guy gets several minutes to spout uninterrupted nonsense about "not being able to test it via normal trials". Then Dr Goldacre is constantly interrupted by the presenter. Typical BBC mince
RobertPettifer 2 years ago