Also, the issue I have with switching the narration, unless it is controlled in some fashion by the GM, the 'story' the GM is trying to deliver could be derailed so swiftly its ridiculous. Imagine with 3 wagers: and I get caught in the effect of a teleport spell cast by a nearby mage, and get teleported to another continent.
I'm really interested in this notion of narration switching, but see that too as being potentially open to so much abuse. Imagine again the rooftop jump example above. I begin falling, but I land in the basket of a hot air balloon, and find a magic sword and a ring on invisibility.
@evilpilch If your players are just going to min-max the hell out of every game they play, then stick to D&D. Houses is a game where players have a HUGE amount of power and thus are given the trust of the narrator and fellow players that he won't destroy the story by doing retarded things. The idea that a story can be "derailed" seems almost laughable to me. There is no rail in Houses. Everybody is actively building the story in real time.
@ShubertCVGC Of course a story can be derailed. And by derailed I mean abuse, and make no reference to rail-roading. It seems to be that the concept of 'collaborative storytelling' which you seem to infer that Houses is, perhaps something aking to Ars Magica in that respect, does rely on mature players all, or at least most of which have some storytelling capacity. I'd love to play a game like that, but I haven't yet come across a group of players who wouldn't abuse the power to some extent.
@evilpilch Actually, you inferred it, not me. But yes, unfortunately it does require a "mature" group of players. While this is practically impossible to achieve, a good Narrator (GM) might be able to keep a *mostly* mature group on course. I'm struggling with this myself at the moment.
I have an issue with this so-called 'Whiff Factor'. I'm not sure that, especially in the example of revenge given above, that rolling a 4 would kill the drama. It might actually add to the tension if handled correctly. Spectacular moments of failure are often as dramatic as spectacular moments of success.
That's a brilliant concept, kinda reminds me of the fight-scene narration system in Feng Shui. You're having a punch-up in a chinese restaurant and you want to use two lobsters and a hot-plate as part of your asskickery? Roll them bones, boy!
In boardgames, there is no challange about interpreting a persona. Clue are just rules to compete with others. D&D minis is not an RPG because you never get to decide "why", "when" or "what for" are you fighting.
Well, you certainly have the option to decide that, right? I mean, there's no rules against it...do you mean that there are no rules to support it? But there are plenty of roleplaying games without rules that support those decisions. There's no rule in D&D that says "If you're playing a character of such and such a sort, you must defeat the challenges as they would."
As roleplaying games are about challanges, the wriff factor is not an issue, but part of the game, because failure IS part of the game. Who would it be fun a game with no challange?
Storytelling games have the main concern of telling a story. That is why they need to adress things like the wriff factor, or the story might get spoiled.
Challenge is the risk of your character's goals being frustrated. The Whiff is the risk of your character looking like an idiot.
In the given example, the story of hero who, having trained HIS ENTIRE LIFE for this moment of revenge, tripped and dropped his sword, is ridiculous. But if his skill was no match for his tormentor's trickery or knowledge of the terrain, which he used to get the upper hand or even escape, that's cool.
I've seen the last arrow break the bowstring. It was dumb.
I think you are confusing "roleplaying games" with "storytelling games". The last derived from the first and has now it's own set of principals, similar to yours.
"Roleplaying games" where originally understood (confirmed by EGG) as games about challages, in which each player assumed a role ("Hey, I'm the cleric). Challages come from 2 side. The challenge set up by the GM (the most obvius) and the challage set up by yourself by choosing a persona to interpretate ("I'll defeat the monster AS a Paladin would do"). That is what roleplaying are. The story is not the main concern. The story simple derives from the actions that spontaneuly took place.
So why aren't board games like Clue 'role-playing' games? I'm playing an investigator. I have the challenge of discovering who killed someone before the other investigators, etc. If its all about the challenges and nothing about the story why does there have to be a 'story' at all.
BTW, is the D&D minitures game a 'role-playing' game? Why not?
Totally OK. But I'm just telling ya' how it is in D&D. What I think, it's that there is a difference in saying: "I want to make something different from D&D" (something which I'm totally cool with) to saying "D&D does not work, I'll fix it".
If you play D&D without story or character, what's the difference between playing D&D and Talisman? Or, more appropriately, what's the difference between playing D&D and Fantasy Flight's Descent board game?
Jumping a pit for example. Which could be handled as follows: "roll a six-sider; 1 or 2 you fall in the pit, 3 you're hanging off the ledge, 4 you're safely across but lying prone, 5 or 6 you're across and standing, -1 to the roll for each encumbrance level".
I think you should take another look at first edition D&D. Be sure to look at it with the same eyes we all looked at it back in the mid-'70's. You didn't just "make up rules." And there were rules for falling into pits. You didn't need to make them up just now. Go back to your original books and find them. See what they looked like. You might be surprised.
I do got homemade classes, class variants, races, spells, some mods to what attribute bonuses, etc. But none of the house rules are meant to cover areas that the game intensionally leaves as rule-less.
I have a post on my Livejournal (wickedthought) that addresses my primary concerns about first generation rpgs (and D&D in particular). For some reason, Youtube won't let me post the URL. Do a google search and you'll find it. Under the heading "Santa Vaca"
wow, missed on a 4, roll again next turn/round. I know few players that would ever complain if they were backed into a corner with no weapon and the villain failed to dispatch them ...
That's right. That's also why I'm designing my game differently: because I like it better this way. You like D&D the way it is, so keep on playing. But, I wanted something different, so I'm designing something different. That's why there's 32 flavors of ice cream, dude. We can all be ice cream fans and enjoy different flavors. Chill out and have some rocky road! :)
I'm totally OK with people who don't like D&D (many of my friends). I just find that you don't get D&D, and criticize it as disfunctional based on wrong assumptions, and all in a very arrogant tone of speech. That´s it.
Slightly unrelated but today I got a chance to try the Houses of the Blooded preview with the included scenario. We didn't finish it but we had a lot of fun (most of us at least). I just noticed one detail I wanted to let you know: There seems to be no info on the ROADMEN Vassals for one of the pre-gen characters.
What lies beyond narration rights, though? What's the *next* thing? I know I've at least had a bit of "narration rights fatigue" creep into my gameplay experience in the last year or so; it leaves me craving some enforced consequence that I have no control over. :)
The other concern/challenge that narration rights delegating systems bring to the table is the "deer in headlights" factor that arises for players who really don't like being put on the spot or (as some say) being "forced to GM".
Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this is worked out also. I know in the playtests people were 'healing' for a few 'seasons' so it seems there are consequences that last beyond the narration. Like I said, can't wait...
This aspect of the rules behind HotB is what interested me the most when I first heard about it. I'm looking forward to this game more than any other right now.
as a player i love the whiff facter i think it adds even more drama to the game and takes the story to even higher level drama
tarboy69 1 year ago
Also, the issue I have with switching the narration, unless it is controlled in some fashion by the GM, the 'story' the GM is trying to deliver could be derailed so swiftly its ridiculous. Imagine with 3 wagers: and I get caught in the effect of a teleport spell cast by a nearby mage, and get teleported to another continent.
evilpilch 1 year ago
I'm really interested in this notion of narration switching, but see that too as being potentially open to so much abuse. Imagine again the rooftop jump example above. I begin falling, but I land in the basket of a hot air balloon, and find a magic sword and a ring on invisibility.
evilpilch 1 year ago
@evilpilch If your players are just going to min-max the hell out of every game they play, then stick to D&D. Houses is a game where players have a HUGE amount of power and thus are given the trust of the narrator and fellow players that he won't destroy the story by doing retarded things. The idea that a story can be "derailed" seems almost laughable to me. There is no rail in Houses. Everybody is actively building the story in real time.
ShubertCVGC 1 year ago
@ShubertCVGC Of course a story can be derailed. And by derailed I mean abuse, and make no reference to rail-roading. It seems to be that the concept of 'collaborative storytelling' which you seem to infer that Houses is, perhaps something aking to Ars Magica in that respect, does rely on mature players all, or at least most of which have some storytelling capacity. I'd love to play a game like that, but I haven't yet come across a group of players who wouldn't abuse the power to some extent.
evilpilch 1 year ago
@evilpilch Actually, you inferred it, not me. But yes, unfortunately it does require a "mature" group of players. While this is practically impossible to achieve, a good Narrator (GM) might be able to keep a *mostly* mature group on course. I'm struggling with this myself at the moment.
ShubertCVGC 1 year ago
I have an issue with this so-called 'Whiff Factor'. I'm not sure that, especially in the example of revenge given above, that rolling a 4 would kill the drama. It might actually add to the tension if handled correctly. Spectacular moments of failure are often as dramatic as spectacular moments of success.
evilpilch 1 year ago
00000
TubeYourTubeOn 1 year ago
all hail discordia
TubeYourTubeOn 1 year ago
Great episode I must say.
And by the say, Rush is awesome!
Well, if I say Moving Pictures and 2112 you definitely know what I want to say.
Keep it up!
solvebring 2 years ago
That's a brilliant concept, kinda reminds me of the fight-scene narration system in Feng Shui. You're having a punch-up in a chinese restaurant and you want to use two lobsters and a hot-plate as part of your asskickery? Roll them bones, boy!
WizardJim 2 years ago
was that Primus?
velocityeleven 2 years ago
Creo que se han dado por vencidos Z.
Hey, Mr. Wick, we want to make some subtitles in spanish for the gd seminars.
What are the possibilities?
doguipreacher 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Sure! Go for it!
LordStrange 3 years ago
In boardgames, there is no challange about interpreting a persona. Clue are just rules to compete with others. D&D minis is not an RPG because you never get to decide "why", "when" or "what for" are you fighting.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Well, you certainly have the option to decide that, right? I mean, there's no rules against it...do you mean that there are no rules to support it? But there are plenty of roleplaying games without rules that support those decisions. There's no rule in D&D that says "If you're playing a character of such and such a sort, you must defeat the challenges as they would."
bce23w 3 years ago
As roleplaying games are about challanges, the wriff factor is not an issue, but part of the game, because failure IS part of the game. Who would it be fun a game with no challange?
Storytelling games have the main concern of telling a story. That is why they need to adress things like the wriff factor, or the story might get spoiled.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Challenge is the risk of your character's goals being frustrated. The Whiff is the risk of your character looking like an idiot.
In the given example, the story of hero who, having trained HIS ENTIRE LIFE for this moment of revenge, tripped and dropped his sword, is ridiculous. But if his skill was no match for his tormentor's trickery or knowledge of the terrain, which he used to get the upper hand or even escape, that's cool.
I've seen the last arrow break the bowstring. It was dumb.
bce23w 3 years ago
I think you are confusing "roleplaying games" with "storytelling games". The last derived from the first and has now it's own set of principals, similar to yours.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Can you define your terms? What's the difference between a "storytelling game" and a "roleplaying game?"
LordStrange 3 years ago
Please define your terms. You're not making sense.
SaintAndSinner4JMJ 3 years ago
"Roleplaying games" where originally understood (confirmed by EGG) as games about challages, in which each player assumed a role ("Hey, I'm the cleric). Challages come from 2 side. The challenge set up by the GM (the most obvius) and the challage set up by yourself by choosing a persona to interpretate ("I'll defeat the monster AS a Paladin would do"). That is what roleplaying are. The story is not the main concern. The story simple derives from the actions that spontaneuly took place.
zulgyan 3 years ago
*challaNges - sorry about that, my N key is unhappy.
zulgyan 3 years ago
So why aren't board games like Clue 'role-playing' games? I'm playing an investigator. I have the challenge of discovering who killed someone before the other investigators, etc. If its all about the challenges and nothing about the story why does there have to be a 'story' at all.
BTW, is the D&D minitures game a 'role-playing' game? Why not?
SaintAndSinner4JMJ 3 years ago
Does that mean games like Runequest, Call of Cthulhu and Pendragon are NOT roleplaying games?
LordStrange 3 years ago
Moreover, the DM may simply say: "Ok, you kill him, no need to roll". And what's the problem with that?
zulgyan 3 years ago
If the GM has that kind of authority, why not just write a novel? It's a GAME GAME GAME, remember? ;)
LordStrange 3 years ago
Because you do it just in very few special cases you find it just OK.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Moreover, it's the players who play the game. The DM is just offering it (he's not really playing but entretaining others, at least in D&D)
zulgyan 3 years ago
Why can't the GM play the game, too?
LordStrange 3 years ago
Totally OK. But I'm just telling ya' how it is in D&D. What I think, it's that there is a difference in saying: "I want to make something different from D&D" (something which I'm totally cool with) to saying "D&D does not work, I'll fix it".
zulgyan 3 years ago
If you play D&D without story or character, what's the difference between playing D&D and Talisman? Or, more appropriately, what's the difference between playing D&D and Fantasy Flight's Descent board game?
LordStrange 3 years ago
The guy is also saying that OD&D has tables and charts and binary non-graded results for ALL ACTIONS (when it's just for combat)
So he is speaking without even knowing how it worked.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Can you provide an example of task resolution from 1st Edition D&D that didn't use charts?
LordStrange 3 years ago
Jumping a pit for example. Which could be handled as follows: "roll a six-sider; 1 or 2 you fall in the pit, 3 you're hanging off the ledge, 4 you're safely across but lying prone, 5 or 6 you're across and standing, -1 to the roll for each encumbrance level".
zulgyan 3 years ago
Again: a chart. That was the point. You roll on a chart that determines the outcome.
LordStrange 3 years ago
That was just something I made up, not a chart in the book. It has graded results.
zulgyan 3 years ago
So, you made up a rule that didn't exist in the game to illustrate how the game didn't use charts?
LordStrange 3 years ago
I wanted to illustrate that Original D&D is very much based in the GM's ad-hoc adjudication. It's not really about charts and binary results.
zulgyan 3 years ago
I think you should take another look at first edition D&D. Be sure to look at it with the same eyes we all looked at it back in the mid-'70's. You didn't just "make up rules." And there were rules for falling into pits. You didn't need to make them up just now. Go back to your original books and find them. See what they looked like. You might be surprised.
LordStrange 3 years ago
I play Original D&D, as published for the first time in 1974, 2 or 3 times a months. It's my game of choice.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Do you play it with the published rules? Or, do you have a whole host of house rules to cover the design holes?
LordStrange 3 years ago
I do got homemade classes, class variants, races, spells, some mods to what attribute bonuses, etc. But none of the house rules are meant to cover areas that the game intensionally leaves as rule-less.
zulgyan 3 years ago
I have a post on my Livejournal (wickedthought) that addresses my primary concerns about first generation rpgs (and D&D in particular). For some reason, Youtube won't let me post the URL. Do a google search and you'll find it. Under the heading "Santa Vaca"
LordStrange 3 years ago
wow, missed on a 4, roll again next turn/round. I know few players that would ever complain if they were backed into a corner with no weapon and the villain failed to dispatch them ...
semajsivraj 3 years ago
The wriff factor is not a problem of the game. It's part of the GAME. GAME. GAME. Mario can die in the last minite agaisnt Bowser.
The wriff factor is a problem for YOU.
And D&D is a GAME not a storytelling engine.
zulgyan 3 years ago
That's right. That's also why I'm designing my game differently: because I like it better this way. You like D&D the way it is, so keep on playing. But, I wanted something different, so I'm designing something different. That's why there's 32 flavors of ice cream, dude. We can all be ice cream fans and enjoy different flavors. Chill out and have some rocky road! :)
LordStrange 3 years ago
I'm totally OK with people who don't like D&D (many of my friends). I just find that you don't get D&D, and criticize it as disfunctional based on wrong assumptions, and all in a very arrogant tone of speech. That´s it.
zulgyan 3 years ago
I'm really enjoying the series, and I'm a big fan of narration rights. Keep up the good work.
I'm doing what I can to promote this series and the game in my journal.
gameraspinning 3 years ago
You are assuming that all RPGs need a story, and that is not true. RPGs can be story-less. That's all what old-school D&D is about, for example.
zulgyan 3 years ago
Slightly unrelated but today I got a chance to try the Houses of the Blooded preview with the included scenario. We didn't finish it but we had a lot of fun (most of us at least). I just noticed one detail I wanted to let you know: There seems to be no info on the ROADMEN Vassals for one of the pre-gen characters.
democritus6 3 years ago
What lies beyond narration rights, though? What's the *next* thing? I know I've at least had a bit of "narration rights fatigue" creep into my gameplay experience in the last year or so; it leaves me craving some enforced consequence that I have no control over. :)
The other concern/challenge that narration rights delegating systems bring to the table is the "deer in headlights" factor that arises for players who really don't like being put on the spot or (as some say) being "forced to GM".
iago23 3 years ago
Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this is worked out also. I know in the playtests people were 'healing' for a few 'seasons' so it seems there are consequences that last beyond the narration. Like I said, can't wait...
SaintAndSinner4JMJ 3 years ago
This aspect of the rules behind HotB is what interested me the most when I first heard about it. I'm looking forward to this game more than any other right now.
darquenblade 3 years ago