Hydrostatic shock is an often overlooked element in stopping power. I'm glad they addressed it here. It's one of the main reason rifles are so much more effective than pistols and shotguns.
@1ohtaf1 Well, actually, no. You're confusing energy for hydrostatic shock. Hydro shock is primarily a function of velocity. Even 3" shotgun slugs are relatively low in velocity.
I hope you didn't leave the cans behind on someones property.That would be bad manners and reflect poorly on gun owners. Nice vid. And I kinda liked the beat.
@mistbooster If you pulled out the Five-seveN the bad guys would think it was a toy and probably make you use it. Nobody is going to argue with a shotgun.
@mistbooster I once had a discussion with a "career criminal" and he said the sound of a shotgun being loaded was the worst sound he ever heard. As you probably know alarms may scare the kids out playing hooky and looking to steal a few scraps but don't bother real crooks even in the slightest way.
@faffaflunkie yup, if i ever took the path of a criminal, i would hate to hear the sound of a cocking shotgun instead of the squelch of some toy alarm :S also. if you hear an alarm, it only tells the tale of a faile security system, imho. Security should be built on physical obstacles, not on the assumption of scaring away professional criminals with a sound, if they want something, a high pitched squelch will only mildly annoy them where a couple of dozen 00bucks will surely get them running :D
@mistbooster Sometimes the professional crook will steal the alarm-either to sell or to examine. And they also know the sound of a police cruiser pulling up outside (cops should be taught to kill their engines when they pull up-they'd catch more burglars). Those keypad alarms everybody has next to the front door can be bypassed in seconds. It's an old story-If you can see it it ain't security.
@bartmen74 Your still wrong. And as to the nasty message you sent me don't start a pissing contest you can't win. Just cause you may own a lot or have been around a lot of firearms does not make you neccessarily that knowledgeble on them. i've talked to gunstore employee who like you think they know what their talking about and do'nt. And get mad same as you when given correct information.
@bartmen74 seems to me your reseach is incorrect. Unlike you i actually own a FNH five seven. It clearly reads FNH USA mde in Fredricksburg VA on the gun frame. So your wrong not me
@BioTechMx Only with the Belgian ammo, which is only available to collectors in the US for around 15 bucks a pop. The balistic tiped stuff is the only kind available in the US, and won't penetrate body armor.
The only real advantage I see in this round is that it will penetrate certain body armor and it shoots pretty flat.
Having said that there is no replacement for displacement. This round through your lung might kill you but a 12gauge slug will kill you.
There's nothing wrong with this gun or the philosophy of its use having many armor piercing rounds can only be a good thing but I don't necessarily trust it.
I do think it would make a great small varmint round.
omg in cod i use fullauto mosin nagan bult action rifles with 100 round beta c mags LMFAO!!!!!!!!!! ahhahahahhahahahahahhaha OMFG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!1!1!!1!1
The 9x19 Luger aka Parabellum is an old German pistol round.
I mean comparatively, the 5.7x28 is better. Weighs less. Smaller (allows for a higher ammo capacity). Less muzzle blast and flash. Less recoil. Flatter trajectory. It's a more controllable round.
I'd say the 5.7x28 is a better round than 9x19 Luger in about everything except availability and price. I'd also question its stopping power compared to 9x19 as 5.7x28 is a .224 caliber round.
@hogger129 the size of the round is small ,but tests have proven you can get acceptable stopping power from small calibers by pussing them 2000 fps or faster. At these speed rounds tranfer lots of shock and trauma to flesh. People need to understand there isnt just one way of getting stopping power . Most all rifle calibers get there stopping power this way using relatively light bulletss pushedd at high speeds
I have both, (and others) love both.....I know that the 5.7 is much more effective than the nay sayers want to believe.....but still, I am not willing to be the beta tester in stopping power during a crital moment. There will be more document data from other users, but until then it will not be my primary SD round. I do love my FN though.
you should also note that there appers to be gamma rays shining off from the the hydrashock can.hmmm i wonder if 9 mil has a special power we dont know about
The 5.7 does fine in the P90 subgun and that is what it was designed for. To be an Antipersonnel round and is ok in a pistol and you have to make allot of hits to take the target down though; but in a Battlefield rifle attempt like the AR57 nope nada no way. I've fired the HK P90 and it is great. Does the job when you are close in with allot of bad people intend on hurting you or some one else..
@eggplantface I it clear your a mental nut and all you can do is attempt to flame people with your idiotic attacks. The HK/FN P90 does exist and for my combat experience; you don't know jack about me. You have serious mental problems and anyone who visits there post would see a very very disturbed person. HK and FN have over many years manufactured the same weapon under license HK91 vs. FnFal G3.. Same weapon.. ur mommies calling
@menahunie007 Many companies manufacture the same weapons that are in no way related. 1911 , m16, m14 are manufactured by hundreds of companies. The p90 is an FN weapon. I can understand an honest mistake or a typo but to get this defensive over it is,,,,,,,strange.
@menahunie007 Lol thanks for telling us your combat experience. We all know the H&K p90 doesnt exist. Also please dont tell us what you learned from call of duty....
@tootlepuff well thats the problem with the 9mm isint it. it wont penetrate armor but over penetrates soft tissue. The 5.7 was designed to do teh opposite ( and works wel from what I hear) penetrate armor but stop in soft tissue. Nobodysaid that this was the worlds best HG round. It is a specialty gun that works well.
I have to agree. I shot bowling pins with mine and a couple rounds were stuck halfway into the wood - not in the back, mind you, but the front. I sold it the next day and took a $200 bath on it.
@lordhumungus69 thats too bad its a savage hunting round. i own a 5.7 pistol and upper for my ar. it works amazing at 50+ yards on varmits, coyotes, fox or anything else you dont intend on eating. the tissue damage is unimaginable. i wouldnt use it on big game though. one short comming is the vmax ammo i havent found any vmax ammo that works well at close range for hunting small to medium game. i have a couple boxes of hollow points but havent tried them hunting becase i cant find anymore
@Kahn535 Well you are right about the cans not being a reliable testing medium.... but the rest of your comments are dumb... no scratch that they are flat retarded. I dont even have a 5.7 but the overall ballistic gel test.... holy crap.... it would be an insanely devastating soft tissue round, as well as its ability to penetrate most soft body armor... thus giving it an insane real world application.
Only a muppet wouldnt see that, penetrate body armor and immediatly go into a tumble...
It depends what your target is. If its a tyrannical government-backed entity wearing body armour, like the weekend warriors at the Bureacray of Anything Fun and Exciting, then you might want to consider an AP sidearm. 9mm is like throwing rocks at someone wearing Level III. Also, a low-recoil, flat-shooting, hyper-velocity sidearm might be perfect for pin-point suppressed shots to the head. Stick to your benchrest dude.
@Kahn535 With guns you always have to trade between factors like power, recoil, capacity, overall firepower (capacity x single shot power), penetration and stopping power. In my opinion, every one should find the cartridge that best fits his necessities from the wide variety of ammo available, however, when it comes to combat pistols, the standard for most would be a 17 rd 9mm, from where you can get down (in terms of mere brute power) to a 20 rd 5.7, or up to a 15 rd 10mm.
@Kahn535 Ever seen the wound channel of this round in ballistics gel? It causes funny fan-like splits as big as dinner plates!!! I'm no ballistics expert, but I definitely don't want to get hit by this round... D:
@Kahn535 - No I wouldn't say it's a glorified mouse gun. It has a lot of ballistic advantages over 9x19 Luger. 9x19 Luger is nowhere near a mouse gun. Remember the 5.7x28 isn't a .22LR. But I agree. Cans aren't a reliable testing medium. If you want a good testing medium, you have to shoot ballistic gel.
@hogger129 the 57 is in the same category and actually slightly less powerful than a 22 hornet. For my test medium I prefer coyotes and prairie dogs. I do agree that cancer less than an ideal test medium but this does demonstrate that the two rounds are very similar
it is of note that the ss195 will cause slightly more hydrostatic shock because of the tendency of the bullet to tumble causing a more unstable cavitation and wider more jagged wound channel
When a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. 3 different types of pressure change appear: (1)shock wave pressures/sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body; (2)very high pressure immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3)slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. -E. Newton
"The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues. There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects." - im quoting the very definition of hydrostatic shock.
I enjoy how people are all using these terms and then you come in as the most educated saying the stuff about crystalline structures at sub-atomic levels making them all sound ignorant. :) love your arguments ending with you actually being correct.
the shock you are talking about put bluntly can be expressed in ft/lbs, and the 5.7 has less ft/lbs of energy than the 9, 40, and 45. and the reason is because it is do dang light. but that is not my point, the velocity to weight ratio is way out of whack. either the bullet would have to weigh way more or have to travel way faster. the 5.7 simply does not have the physical ability to cause remote hydrostatic trauma. it is too LIGHT and too SLOW, and that combination equals virtually zero h.t.
This is wholly inaccurate and actually contradictory to your point. Without going into detail all one has to do is look at the damage created via the movement/pressure of fluids in the videos I have posted to see the relative effects.
i don't think you are reading the right comment bud. you need to go into detail here because i am really interested in where you think i am inaccurate.
pretty cool vid.. the 9mm is known for deflecting off surfaces and ricochet. as the 5.7 seems to outperform the 9mm, you should compare it to a .40 S&W. as any of these comparisons would be apples to oranges, i think the .40 S&W hydrostatic forces will be similar to that of the 5.7.
do you know what hydrostatic even means? i don't think you do because your statement is completely inaccurate. hydrostaticity has to do with velocity. average velocities are as follows:9mm-1250fps, 40sw-1100fps, 5.7-2100fps. bullets don't even enter the realm of possible hydrostatic damage until atleast 2000fps, but probably closer 2400fps. you are blatently wrong so don't talk about that which you don't know.
It's rather obvious that you don't. For starters the term "hydrostaticity" is used in the field of crystalline structures at nearly sub-atomic levels. Also hydrostatic forces are not solely dependent on velocity although it is usually a major factor. As for 'entering realms'... even 9mm can produce pressure waves in the human body of ~500psi (pressure as low as 200psi has been shown to be capable of producing remote injuries) .
absolutely not. there is NO handgun round that will create that kind of presure within the human body. the whole concept of ballistic hydrostaticity is based on remote damage...and not just 'feel it' kind of damage, it needs to be damage significant enough to shut down vital organs. and that is just not going to happen with handguns
glad you like it, but let me brake it down for you so you are able to understand: ballistic-having to do with ballistics, firearm realated terminal perfomance. hydrostaticity-having to do with liquid pressure
hope that helped you understand. if you have anymore questions that you would like some clearing up just let me know :)
Well, you can always block him. Hell, that's your style, no? Blocking any commentors, reguardless of how civil they are, because their comments make you feel threatened.....that's sad. What a coward you are. Bet you were popular as a kid.....my guess is you were the last kid chosen at recess on a daily basis. Coward.....Are you French, by any chance?
The only posts removed are those with foul language and those that stray from the topic, don't like it don't post. And the only ones blocked are those who keep doing it, don't like it don't post.
You know this and anyone else can see this by looking at the many are in here still arguing, your just pissed because you are incapable of debating w/o all the foul language.
If you refrain (under your latest user ID) from doing the same feel free to stay, otherwise you'll get bumped again.
@moonlightbatemon there is another guy on here who does that too Weaponeer. h is a douchebag too and a stupid one at that. He actually said outloud in front of the universe that "If you were actually military you would recognize my username" Good stuff hey
if handguns were as ineffective as you say, they would have no use. feel it damage as you say, or not, a bullet would will incapacitate to an extent no matter the caliber, what matters is if the target is able to continue fighting. the energy expanded by the 5.7 just based off of velocity alone should be enough granting the location of impact is near a vital organ. that goes with almost any handgun caliber.
so by that logic, the only one with even remotely possible hydrostatic damage would be the 5.7, and even then...it is borderline. that being said, i am not a fan of the 5.7 by any means and see VERY little use for the cartridge. i would carry a 9mm or 40sw anyday over the 5.7, and i do...a 9mm as a matter of fact.
i think youre mad cause i dogged the 9mm. listen, the 9 is a good cartridge its been proven time and again, however its been proven also that it does and can ricochet off of glass, door panels, etc. the 5.7 (look at the design son) is less inclinded to do this. its about bullet design. the 5.7 is designed to penetrate.. the 9 is designed to penetrate and expand, not a good mix if you need to shoot through various surfaces. saying the 9mm will penetrate better than a 5.7 is proposterous
i am not mad because you dogged the 9mm (to do so however would be foolish) i am mad because you haven't done your homework here. correct, the 5.7 is designed to penetrate...body armor. it is suppose to be a last ditch effort to kill armored opponents. sure it can shoot cleanly through glass and maybe some doors but with greatly diminished power. shooting an unarmored opponent will cause vast overpenetration and little energy transfer. not only that, but i NEVER said the 9 would penetrate better
Again... pot meet kettle. If you would do your homework instead of dissing others you would have found that FN designed the round to specifically LIMIT penetration inside the human body. It does this via the rounds CG location causing it to reliably turn 90 degrees creating both a larger surface area and rapidly expending it's energy.
A FMJ 9mm or a HP that fails to expand will vastly out-penetrate 5.7 which is one of the reasons it was created, to limit collateral damage potential.
I agree as far as the tumbling of the 5.7 being an intentional design characteristic to expand energy, however i dont agree that a 9mm would out penetrate a 5.7 even if it didnt expand. hypothetically, i have no clue but its not a point that matters. any handgun will most likely be used at close range in which penetration should be minimized. the newer 5.7 round (ss192?) was designed not to tumble upon impact and may in fact meet the expectations the 5.7 was originally expected to do.
1-unexpanded HP? isnt that an oxymoron. 2-5.7 is designed to penetrate body armor so the tests you looked at were probably done with the 5.7 going through level II armor. 3- expectations- look at the design of the 5.7, anyone will tell you they would assume its a rifle cartridge. the shape of the bullet itself and the case is pretty much a short 5.56. performance expectations are based upon calculated ft lbs with is done with velocity and mass? dunno when i mentioned expectations.
if you were referring to stopping power, thats irrelevant because a 5.7 will only exceed the 9mm IF and ONLY IF it doesnt over penetrate. a 5.7 will ALWAYS penetrate more than any 9mm load regardless. if you want to discuss "stopping power" thats an issue which gets more specific ie bullet design, powder load, etc. if i were to carry one of the two, id chose the 5.7 on its ability to penetrate walls, vehicles etc. the 9mm is a proven round, however for some applications the 5.7 is better.
@captainvirgilHilts isnt the five7 designed more for armor penetration and more ranged shooting? and the 9mm more for personal defense? correct me if im wrong ^_^
@MasterMyers101 No - the 5.7x28mm was designed as a personal defense weapon cartridge. It was created for law enforcement/tactical teams to not over-penetrate, yet still be able to penetrate bulletproof vests. The Five-seveN was the first pistol to qualify for NATO PDW standards.
@acbd659491 9mm is notorious for penetration. it will penetrate further than a lot of guns. such as 5.7 .45acp and depending on the ammo used, an FMJ 9mm will penetrate further than a hollow-point or frangible .223 however wont be as devestating.
@acbd659491 slower bullets penetrate better than faster ones in liquid based targets (like a person or animal) now if you move onto something like a steel target or a block of wood the faster rounds will actually do more damage.
well i wouldn't go that far. in case you are not up to date on gun politics these days, california is the most rediculous restrictive state in the country. it is a firearms enthusiasts worst nightmare. to my knowledge there is hardly a company that will ship ammo to CA, let alone at your 'delivered to your door' prices. i am not so sure CSDood has many opportunities aside from the retail store. just food for thought...
ya i was reading about the 5.7, that they are designed for high levels of damage, they enter the target and then rotate causing intensly more damage, instead of a 6mm hoole you get a 20something mm hole/exit wound. very high tech.
It's traveling so fast it would take a while before it actually starts to yaw/tumble so it doesn't do that much internal damage compared to a .45 auto or 9mm, BUT it's penetrating power is where it beats the .45 and 9mm.
This is quite incorrect, the round typically yaws to 90 within 1-3 bullet lengths (depends on round & weapon) which is a shorter distance than it takes most HP ammunition to fully expand (if it even expands at all).
Out of the Fiveseven 5.7mm 'damage' equals or exceeds that caused by typical 9mm SD/HP ammunition. Out of the PS90 'damage' is similar to .357 Magnum.
In his other videos, the 5.7x28mm traveled through 7" of phone books side ways. To me, that sounds like a force to be reckoned with.
Great video, I've been looking at a RomAK-3 lately, but for the same price it looks like i could pick up an FN. Mainly its a choice of, a rifle I would only be able to use at the range or in the woods, or a gun that i will rarely be able to find ammo for lol.
Turning 90 is exactly how the bullet is intended to travel after entering it's target, it limits overpenetration while creating a larger potential wound path.
... to alter the CG aft so it turns and stays 90 degrees to it's path while penetrating.
This technique has been used for ages in bullet manufacture to increase accuracy, ballistic coefficient, as well as for this effect after striking it's target.
What a worthless video.
twistedslippers721 2 weeks ago
Magic shmagic booo!
snowfox1995 1 month ago
I like the vid, but the music is terrible...sorry.
Kespecial1 2 months ago
no he is not joking 5.7 beats 9mm any day
TheUnderu 3 months ago
you dont have a FiveSeven or 9mm...you made the holes with a screw driver
buckshots500 3 months ago
@buckshots500 i hope ur joking
reaper83001 3 months ago
Great can spinning.
Norskand67 4 months ago
not sure why the ratings are so low, but I enjoyed the video. :) sub'd
NayokeHenji 4 months ago
I just wasted some minutes of my life.
the951racer 4 months ago
@the951racer thats what youtubes for dick... lol
semisi2uh 4 months ago
Wow this video is terrible. Lets spin some cans around for 2 minutes, and then give the video a misleading title.
Zackipedia 5 months ago
Hydrostatic shock is an often overlooked element in stopping power. I'm glad they addressed it here. It's one of the main reason rifles are so much more effective than pistols and shotguns.
JBG762 5 months ago
@JBG762 a 3" 10ga hollow point deer slug at close to medium range is going to produce more hydrostatic shock then most rifles.
1ohtaf1 5 months ago
@1ohtaf1 Well, actually, no. You're confusing energy for hydrostatic shock. Hydro shock is primarily a function of velocity. Even 3" shotgun slugs are relatively low in velocity.
JBG762 5 months ago
@JBG762 From what I've personally experienced, the .45 and 12ga (double-aught) is superior to the .223 in CQB. The .223 tends to overpenetrate.
SSgt24thMEU 2 months ago
dont lie, you guys were high when u filmed that
cunliffe5108 7 months ago
impressive
kageoftheshadow 7 months ago
Some folks just can't take good advice. They're all about "makin bad choices'.
Makinbadchoices 9 months ago
I hope you didn't leave the cans behind on someones property.That would be bad manners and reflect poorly on gun owners. Nice vid. And I kinda liked the beat.
Makinbadchoices 10 months ago
shut the fuck up... talkin bout leavin shit on somebody elses property
DicksARE4chicks 9 months ago
hmm seven yards...
spydermonkey44 10 months ago
I guess you will not be having trouble from those darn tomato cans any more! lol
dreammaker182 10 months ago
The Five-seveN is great if you're attacked by the people from Del Monte.
faffaflunkie 11 months ago
@faffaflunkie the only proper home protection is a good old pump action with either 00 buckshots or deerslugs in it.
mistbooster 9 months ago
@mistbooster If you pulled out the Five-seveN the bad guys would think it was a toy and probably make you use it. Nobody is going to argue with a shotgun.
faffaflunkie 9 months ago
@faffaflunkie indeed, it is hard to argue with lungs full of lead balls
mistbooster 9 months ago
@mistbooster I once had a discussion with a "career criminal" and he said the sound of a shotgun being loaded was the worst sound he ever heard. As you probably know alarms may scare the kids out playing hooky and looking to steal a few scraps but don't bother real crooks even in the slightest way.
faffaflunkie 9 months ago
@faffaflunkie yup, if i ever took the path of a criminal, i would hate to hear the sound of a cocking shotgun instead of the squelch of some toy alarm :S also. if you hear an alarm, it only tells the tale of a faile security system, imho. Security should be built on physical obstacles, not on the assumption of scaring away professional criminals with a sound, if they want something, a high pitched squelch will only mildly annoy them where a couple of dozen 00bucks will surely get them running :D
mistbooster 9 months ago
@mistbooster Sometimes the professional crook will steal the alarm-either to sell or to examine. And they also know the sound of a police cruiser pulling up outside (cops should be taught to kill their engines when they pull up-they'd catch more burglars). Those keypad alarms everybody has next to the front door can be bypassed in seconds. It's an old story-If you can see it it ain't security.
faffaflunkie 9 months ago
@mistbooster I prefer number one buck, sticks in the back ribs of whoever you turned into people-puree. ; )
dysqsarhut 9 months ago
@dysqsarhut i prefer swiss cheese over pure ;D but yeah #1 bucks are less lethal :)
mistbooster 9 months ago
@dysqsarhut i prefer swiss cheese over pure ;D but yeah #1 bucks are less lethal :)
mistbooster 9 months ago
This fucking music haha
pyramidheadthingy 1 year ago
Man you got some burnt looking fingers in that vid. WTF did you do to them hahahaaha
yourfaceisuglyful 1 year ago
@yourfaceisuglyful poke his butt probably
serna0316 1 year ago
I ♥ reading Youtube comment fights.
SmackySmush 1 year ago
pff what a hell i just said i work for them.
ok you knew my country beter than myself no problem with that.
always the same with some US folks it wasnt not for breaking u down if u think that
bartmen74 1 year ago
glad for u,u may own them for us the belgian citizens
it is prohibited by law. fnb stands for Fabrique National Belgique) herstal is the village
beleave me i work with them
invented here and mayby it is possible they make them now overthere
bartmen74 1 year ago
@bartmen74 Your still wrong. And as to the nasty message you sent me don't start a pissing contest you can't win. Just cause you may own a lot or have been around a lot of firearms does not make you neccessarily that knowledgeble on them. i've talked to gunstore employee who like you think they know what their talking about and do'nt. And get mad same as you when given correct information.
reesie0414 1 year ago
@reesie0414 oh my GOD it's YOU'RE NOT YOUR FUCKING HELL
MegaHazzer123 1 year ago
@MegaHazzer123 If you're going to correct the grammar of another, correct your own grammar first.
nenbran 1 year ago
@nenbran i'm not bothered about the grammar, your and you're are just two different words
MegaHazzer123 1 year ago
@MegaHazzer123 You're right. But it just makes you look a bit silly...
nenbran 1 year ago
Comment removed
bartmen74 1 year ago
reesie0414; even it is not FNH that made them but FNB (belgium that made them)
your research is also not great
bartmen74 1 year ago
@bartmen74 seems to me your reseach is incorrect. Unlike you i actually own a FNH five seven. It clearly reads FNH USA mde in Fredricksburg VA on the gun frame. So your wrong not me
reesie0414 1 year ago
@reesie0414 its Fabrique National Herstal made in belgium. Not FNB
reesie0414 1 year ago
all this comparison between 9mm and 5.7,just shoot 10mm 180gr at around 1350fps,game over.
fisher1972 1 year ago
next time shoot it not the cans that have been shot up
jayjaykewl727 1 year ago
The 5.7 can penetrate body armor... Excellent
BioTechMx 1 year ago
@BioTechMx Only with the Belgian ammo, which is only available to collectors in the US for around 15 bucks a pop. The balistic tiped stuff is the only kind available in the US, and won't penetrate body armor.
Tkbill 1 year ago
The only real advantage I see in this round is that it will penetrate certain body armor and it shoots pretty flat.
Having said that there is no replacement for displacement. This round through your lung might kill you but a 12gauge slug will kill you.
There's nothing wrong with this gun or the philosophy of its use having many armor piercing rounds can only be a good thing but I don't necessarily trust it.
I do think it would make a great small varmint round.
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
@TGLymantaiste - You do realize that the only people that can legally get armor-piercing rounds for this gun is law enforcement right?
hogger129 1 year ago
@hogger129 Ok.......
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
@hogger129 That is not true at all. . . .
o56kid 1 year ago
omg in cod i use fullauto mosin nagan bult action rifles with 100 round beta c mags LMFAO!!!!!!!!!! ahhahahahhahahahahahhaha OMFG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!1!1!!1!1
rattfink17 1 year ago
The 5.7x28 was designed around penetration.
The 9x19 Luger aka Parabellum is an old German pistol round.
I mean comparatively, the 5.7x28 is better. Weighs less. Smaller (allows for a higher ammo capacity). Less muzzle blast and flash. Less recoil. Flatter trajectory. It's a more controllable round.
I'd say the 5.7x28 is a better round than 9x19 Luger in about everything except availability and price. I'd also question its stopping power compared to 9x19 as 5.7x28 is a .224 caliber round.
hogger129 1 year ago
@hogger129 the size of the round is small ,but tests have proven you can get acceptable stopping power from small calibers by pussing them 2000 fps or faster. At these speed rounds tranfer lots of shock and trauma to flesh. People need to understand there isnt just one way of getting stopping power . Most all rifle calibers get there stopping power this way using relatively light bulletss pushedd at high speeds
reesie0414 1 year ago
I wish you would of shown them being shot, Rather then the after Effect... Kinda pointless but cool man thanks!!
scorpioncrow 1 year ago
@UserNamei5 Wow, maybe you should review your comment a little.
patsfanczar 1 year ago
I have both, (and others) love both.....I know that the 5.7 is much more effective than the nay sayers want to believe.....but still, I am not willing to be the beta tester in stopping power during a crital moment. There will be more document data from other users, but until then it will not be my primary SD round. I do love my FN though.
SAR0311 1 year ago
both rounds are for girls, be a man and get a .45
SNIPERSTEVE420 1 year ago
tape the shots moran
auprototyper 1 year ago
5.7x28 hollow points... just a thought
cheezyweezz 1 year ago
you should also note that there appers to be gamma rays shining off from the the hydrashock can.hmmm i wonder if 9 mil has a special power we dont know about
SpdDemon69 1 year ago
1 Shot counts
thrasher633 1 year ago
The 5.7 does fine in the P90 subgun and that is what it was designed for. To be an Antipersonnel round and is ok in a pistol and you have to make allot of hits to take the target down though; but in a Battlefield rifle attempt like the AR57 nope nada no way. I've fired the HK P90 and it is great. Does the job when you are close in with allot of bad people intend on hurting you or some one else..
menahunie007 1 year ago
@menahunie007 WOW! An HK P90 huh? You fired a weapon that doesn't exist? You must have mad connections.
WurledPeas 1 year ago
@WurledPeas
ur an ass and there is a P90
menahunie007 1 year ago
@menahunie007 N ur an idiot. Not only does your spelling indicate as such but there is no such thing as a Heckler and Koch P90.
Dipshit.
WurledPeas 1 year ago
@menahunie007 H&K makes the mp5 so dont get confused you modernware 2 faggot
eggplantface 1 year ago
@eggplantface so does Vector Arms
reynosamanA3 1 year ago
@eggplantface I it clear your a mental nut and all you can do is attempt to flame people with your idiotic attacks. The HK/FN P90 does exist and for my combat experience; you don't know jack about me. You have serious mental problems and anyone who visits there post would see a very very disturbed person. HK and FN have over many years manufactured the same weapon under license HK91 vs. FnFal G3.. Same weapon.. ur mommies calling
menahunie007 1 year ago
@menahunie007 Many companies manufacture the same weapons that are in no way related. 1911 , m16, m14 are manufactured by hundreds of companies. The p90 is an FN weapon. I can understand an honest mistake or a typo but to get this defensive over it is,,,,,,,strange.
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
@menahunie007 its the FNH P90 not H&K. Go do your research before you blurt out bad info
reesie0414 1 year ago
@menahunie007 Lol thanks for telling us your combat experience. We all know the H&K p90 doesnt exist. Also please dont tell us what you learned from call of duty....
eggplantface 1 year ago
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@eggplantface LMFAO @ "dont tell us what you learned from call of duty...." nice!!
reynosamanA3 1 year ago
lame
gra22 1 year ago
5.7 looks pretty impressive in ballistics gel.
jmosler9 1 year ago
you need to show you shooting it
muzicman6767 1 year ago
wait wait wait, so what one combats zombies the best?
devrobbiz 1 year ago
@devrobbiz Don't forget where zombies come from.
JimbobOMG 1 year ago
I'll take a 20 round magazine and 30% less recoil compared to that crap 9mm round.
mimixownzall 1 year ago
Then try the 5.7 FMJ to the 9mm FMJ the 5.7 will easily out penetrate the 9mm
The five seven was specifically designed to pierce body armor.
It has a much higher velocity as well.
tootlepuff 1 year ago
@tootlepuff well thats the problem with the 9mm isint it. it wont penetrate armor but over penetrates soft tissue. The 5.7 was designed to do teh opposite ( and works wel from what I hear) penetrate armor but stop in soft tissue. Nobodysaid that this was the worlds best HG round. It is a specialty gun that works well.
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
@tootlepuff yea...thats tru...i dont kno y so many people dont understand that
PhoenixEdwards 1 year ago
5.7 Anyday
samarias13 1 year ago
why would someone choose such an awful song for their video?did u do it on purpose or something
Boston1775 1 year ago
Sweet.... try spam next !
missmymissy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Fucking waste of time, why dont you test the bullets on your head, jerk.
xbusterwolfx 2 years ago
@xbusterwolfx
mystifying comment.
fweezabird 1 year ago
@xbusterwolfx
dude are you serious..........wow, youre a little girl.
ramtron1775 1 year ago
@xbusterwolfx
yeah because your videos are so awesome right, oh wait, you don't have any videos.
007JoeVitto 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Hydrostatic shock" is bullshit.
Can's aren't a reliable testing medium.
The 5.7 is a glorified mouse gun.
Kahn535 2 years ago
And we are forever grateful that you took the time to comment
captainvirgilHilts 1 year ago
@Kahn535 True but I never get tired of blowing up keystone light with my AR.
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
@Kahn535 Just remember , the FN was used in the fort hood shooting, and alot of people died after taking hit(s) f rom the 5.7
mrstickball 1 year ago
@Kahn535
I have to agree. I shot bowling pins with mine and a couple rounds were stuck halfway into the wood - not in the back, mind you, but the front. I sold it the next day and took a $200 bath on it.
lordhumungus69 1 year ago
@lordhumungus69 thats too bad its a savage hunting round. i own a 5.7 pistol and upper for my ar. it works amazing at 50+ yards on varmits, coyotes, fox or anything else you dont intend on eating. the tissue damage is unimaginable. i wouldnt use it on big game though. one short comming is the vmax ammo i havent found any vmax ammo that works well at close range for hunting small to medium game. i have a couple boxes of hollow points but havent tried them hunting becase i cant find anymore
tz4785 1 year ago
@tz4785 Yeah, I imagine it's pretty badass for those purposes. Cool gun, really. I guess I just expected, unrealistically, 5.56 power in a 5.7...
lordhumungus69 1 year ago
@Kahn535 Well you are right about the cans not being a reliable testing medium.... but the rest of your comments are dumb... no scratch that they are flat retarded. I dont even have a 5.7 but the overall ballistic gel test.... holy crap.... it would be an insanely devastating soft tissue round, as well as its ability to penetrate most soft body armor... thus giving it an insane real world application.
Only a muppet wouldnt see that, penetrate body armor and immediatly go into a tumble...
TVFSteve 1 year ago
@Kahn535 a 5.7 is also an armor piercing round.
ihatenjoi 1 year ago
@ihatenjoi only the ss190 ammo is
DONSnPiEsALOT92 1 year ago
@Kahn535
It depends what your target is. If its a tyrannical government-backed entity wearing body armour, like the weekend warriors at the Bureacray of Anything Fun and Exciting, then you might want to consider an AP sidearm. 9mm is like throwing rocks at someone wearing Level III. Also, a low-recoil, flat-shooting, hyper-velocity sidearm might be perfect for pin-point suppressed shots to the head. Stick to your benchrest dude.
navyavi469 1 year ago
@Kahn535 Hydrostatic shock is physics. and the 5.7 is for penatration(wich it is good at), but i prefer 9mm.
savage495 1 year ago
@Kahn535 HAHA MY ASS you upload vids of A CAT EATING FOOD!!! show us your guns huh!
airsoftloverusp 1 year ago
@Kahn535 lol, you have video proof of hydrostatic shock and yet you still dont believe? Look at how much those cans got deformed.
lexmark136 1 year ago
@Kahn535 thats why you quadruple tap the fuck out of people with the 30 rd mag
dingdongintheface 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Kahn535 thats why you just quadruple tap the shit out of them with the 30 rd mag
dingdongintheface 1 year ago
Comment removed
elitesack 1 year ago
@Kahn535 The Ft. Hood shooter didn't seem to care. 5.7x28 kills, simple as that. The AR-15 is a glorified mouse gun too.
Otacon237 1 year ago
@Otacon237 A very lethal mouse.
klesmer 1 year ago
@Kahn535 not really bullshit at all. even if the hydro didnt kill you, the pain would be unimaginable.
roberto376 1 year ago
@Kahn535 With guns you always have to trade between factors like power, recoil, capacity, overall firepower (capacity x single shot power), penetration and stopping power. In my opinion, every one should find the cartridge that best fits his necessities from the wide variety of ammo available, however, when it comes to combat pistols, the standard for most would be a 17 rd 9mm, from where you can get down (in terms of mere brute power) to a 20 rd 5.7, or up to a 15 rd 10mm.
Jormungandr69 1 year ago
@Kahn535 thats a very scientific responce with tons of fatcs and documented evidence to back up what ur sayin im glad i read ur comment.
Although with the evidence i have seen i will still bealive that sending people into organ failure is goin to stop them but hey thats just me
bobwatters 1 year ago
@Kahn535 Ever seen the wound channel of this round in ballistics gel? It causes funny fan-like splits as big as dinner plates!!! I'm no ballistics expert, but I definitely don't want to get hit by this round... D:
CeeKayz0rz 1 year ago
@Kahn535 - No I wouldn't say it's a glorified mouse gun. It has a lot of ballistic advantages over 9x19 Luger. 9x19 Luger is nowhere near a mouse gun. Remember the 5.7x28 isn't a .22LR. But I agree. Cans aren't a reliable testing medium. If you want a good testing medium, you have to shoot ballistic gel.
hogger129 1 year ago
@hogger129 the 57 is in the same category and actually slightly less powerful than a 22 hornet. For my test medium I prefer coyotes and prairie dogs. I do agree that cancer less than an ideal test medium but this does demonstrate that the two rounds are very similar
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
it is of note that the ss195 will cause slightly more hydrostatic shock because of the tendency of the bullet to tumble causing a more unstable cavitation and wider more jagged wound channel
iceman27406 2 years ago
but i trust my life to the 9mm and .40 S&W Trojan's slick quick and stiff brand
iceman27406 2 years ago
When a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. 3 different types of pressure change appear: (1)shock wave pressures/sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body; (2)very high pressure immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3)slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. -E. Newton
acbd659491 2 years ago
"The term hydrostatic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact, through a hydraulic effect in liquid-filled tissues. There is scientific evidence that hydrostatic shock can produce remote neural damage and produce incapacitation more quickly than blood loss effects." - im quoting the very definition of hydrostatic shock.
acbd659491 2 years ago
I enjoy how people are all using these terms and then you come in as the most educated saying the stuff about crystalline structures at sub-atomic levels making them all sound ignorant. :) love your arguments ending with you actually being correct.
GoldenMurderer 2 years ago
the shock you are talking about put bluntly can be expressed in ft/lbs, and the 5.7 has less ft/lbs of energy than the 9, 40, and 45. and the reason is because it is do dang light. but that is not my point, the velocity to weight ratio is way out of whack. either the bullet would have to weigh way more or have to travel way faster. the 5.7 simply does not have the physical ability to cause remote hydrostatic trauma. it is too LIGHT and too SLOW, and that combination equals virtually zero h.t.
lordvader789 2 years ago
This is wholly inaccurate and actually contradictory to your point. Without going into detail all one has to do is look at the damage created via the movement/pressure of fluids in the videos I have posted to see the relative effects.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
i don't think you are reading the right comment bud. you need to go into detail here because i am really interested in where you think i am inaccurate.
lordvader789 2 years ago
Yeah but as a normal citizen ur not gonna get the penetrating ammo. Ur gonna get the hollow point ammo.
PATRICKWHITED 2 years ago
I would say buy both :D... and if you need to shoot someone through kevlar or a motor vehicle, use the penetrator :D
redtidestudios 2 years ago
pretty cool vid.. the 9mm is known for deflecting off surfaces and ricochet. as the 5.7 seems to outperform the 9mm, you should compare it to a .40 S&W. as any of these comparisons would be apples to oranges, i think the .40 S&W hydrostatic forces will be similar to that of the 5.7.
acbd659491 2 years ago
do you know what hydrostatic even means? i don't think you do because your statement is completely inaccurate. hydrostaticity has to do with velocity. average velocities are as follows:9mm-1250fps, 40sw-1100fps, 5.7-2100fps. bullets don't even enter the realm of possible hydrostatic damage until atleast 2000fps, but probably closer 2400fps. you are blatently wrong so don't talk about that which you don't know.
lordvader789 2 years ago
It's rather obvious that you don't. For starters the term "hydrostaticity" is used in the field of crystalline structures at nearly sub-atomic levels. Also hydrostatic forces are not solely dependent on velocity although it is usually a major factor. As for 'entering realms'... even 9mm can produce pressure waves in the human body of ~500psi (pressure as low as 200psi has been shown to be capable of producing remote injuries) .
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
absolutely not. there is NO handgun round that will create that kind of presure within the human body. the whole concept of ballistic hydrostaticity is based on remote damage...and not just 'feel it' kind of damage, it needs to be damage significant enough to shut down vital organs. and that is just not going to happen with handguns
lordvader789 2 years ago
"ballistic hydrostaticity"...... lol
Oh your a hoot.... lol
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
glad you like it, but let me brake it down for you so you are able to understand: ballistic-having to do with ballistics, firearm realated terminal perfomance. hydrostaticity-having to do with liquid pressure
hope that helped you understand. if you have anymore questions that you would like some clearing up just let me know :)
lordvader789 2 years ago
For the second time now.... the term "hydrostaticity" is used in the field of crystalline structures at nearly sub-atomic levels.
NOT RELATING TO HYDROSTATIC PRESSURE/FORCE
Try to stop making up terms and improperly applying them as it just makes you look stupid.
:-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Well, you can always block him. Hell, that's your style, no? Blocking any commentors, reguardless of how civil they are, because their comments make you feel threatened.....that's sad. What a coward you are. Bet you were popular as a kid.....my guess is you were the last kid chosen at recess on a daily basis. Coward.....Are you French, by any chance?
moonlightbatemon 2 years ago
The only posts removed are those with foul language and those that stray from the topic, don't like it don't post. And the only ones blocked are those who keep doing it, don't like it don't post.
You know this and anyone else can see this by looking at the many are in here still arguing, your just pissed because you are incapable of debating w/o all the foul language.
If you refrain (under your latest user ID) from doing the same feel free to stay, otherwise you'll get bumped again.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
@moonlightbatemon there is another guy on here who does that too Weaponeer. h is a douchebag too and a stupid one at that. He actually said outloud in front of the universe that "If you were actually military you would recognize my username" Good stuff hey
TGLymantaiste 1 year ago
if handguns were as ineffective as you say, they would have no use. feel it damage as you say, or not, a bullet would will incapacitate to an extent no matter the caliber, what matters is if the target is able to continue fighting. the energy expanded by the 5.7 just based off of velocity alone should be enough granting the location of impact is near a vital organ. that goes with almost any handgun caliber.
acbd659491 2 years ago
so by that logic, the only one with even remotely possible hydrostatic damage would be the 5.7, and even then...it is borderline. that being said, i am not a fan of the 5.7 by any means and see VERY little use for the cartridge. i would carry a 9mm or 40sw anyday over the 5.7, and i do...a 9mm as a matter of fact.
lordvader789 2 years ago
i think youre mad cause i dogged the 9mm. listen, the 9 is a good cartridge its been proven time and again, however its been proven also that it does and can ricochet off of glass, door panels, etc. the 5.7 (look at the design son) is less inclinded to do this. its about bullet design. the 5.7 is designed to penetrate.. the 9 is designed to penetrate and expand, not a good mix if you need to shoot through various surfaces. saying the 9mm will penetrate better than a 5.7 is proposterous
acbd659491 2 years ago
i am not mad because you dogged the 9mm (to do so however would be foolish) i am mad because you haven't done your homework here. correct, the 5.7 is designed to penetrate...body armor. it is suppose to be a last ditch effort to kill armored opponents. sure it can shoot cleanly through glass and maybe some doors but with greatly diminished power. shooting an unarmored opponent will cause vast overpenetration and little energy transfer. not only that, but i NEVER said the 9 would penetrate better
lordvader789 2 years ago
Again... pot meet kettle. If you would do your homework instead of dissing others you would have found that FN designed the round to specifically LIMIT penetration inside the human body. It does this via the rounds CG location causing it to reliably turn 90 degrees creating both a larger surface area and rapidly expending it's energy.
A FMJ 9mm or a HP that fails to expand will vastly out-penetrate 5.7 which is one of the reasons it was created, to limit collateral damage potential.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
I agree as far as the tumbling of the 5.7 being an intentional design characteristic to expand energy, however i dont agree that a 9mm would out penetrate a 5.7 even if it didnt expand. hypothetically, i have no clue but its not a point that matters. any handgun will most likely be used at close range in which penetration should be minimized. the newer 5.7 round (ss192?) was designed not to tumble upon impact and may in fact meet the expectations the 5.7 was originally expected to do.
acbd659491 2 years ago
9mm FMJ or unexpanded HP will far outpenetrate 5.7 in tissue, gel, or other water based media. Simply look at tests done with FMJ and compare to 5.7.
All duty loads produced by FN were designed to yaw to after impact.
Vmax tipped rounds were designed to fragment.
Elaborate on your statement about performance "expectations".
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
1-unexpanded HP? isnt that an oxymoron. 2-5.7 is designed to penetrate body armor so the tests you looked at were probably done with the 5.7 going through level II armor. 3- expectations- look at the design of the 5.7, anyone will tell you they would assume its a rifle cartridge. the shape of the bullet itself and the case is pretty much a short 5.56. performance expectations are based upon calculated ft lbs with is done with velocity and mass? dunno when i mentioned expectations.
acbd659491 2 years ago
if you were referring to stopping power, thats irrelevant because a 5.7 will only exceed the 9mm IF and ONLY IF it doesnt over penetrate. a 5.7 will ALWAYS penetrate more than any 9mm load regardless. if you want to discuss "stopping power" thats an issue which gets more specific ie bullet design, powder load, etc. if i were to carry one of the two, id chose the 5.7 on its ability to penetrate walls, vehicles etc. the 9mm is a proven round, however for some applications the 5.7 is better.
acbd659491 2 years ago
@captainvirgilHilts isnt the five7 designed more for armor penetration and more ranged shooting? and the 9mm more for personal defense? correct me if im wrong ^_^
MasterMyers101 1 year ago
@MasterMyers101 No - the 5.7x28mm was designed as a personal defense weapon cartridge. It was created for law enforcement/tactical teams to not over-penetrate, yet still be able to penetrate bulletproof vests. The Five-seveN was the first pistol to qualify for NATO PDW standards.
memphetic 1 year ago
@acbd659491 9mm is notorious for penetration. it will penetrate further than a lot of guns. such as 5.7 .45acp and depending on the ammo used, an FMJ 9mm will penetrate further than a hollow-point or frangible .223 however wont be as devestating.
elitesack 1 year ago
@acbd659491 slower bullets penetrate better than faster ones in liquid based targets (like a person or animal) now if you move onto something like a steel target or a block of wood the faster rounds will actually do more damage.
elitesack 1 year ago
next terminal effect vid show the things getting hit i cant tell how much energy was expended from the holes
c4kills 2 years ago
what song
SomewhatLiberal 2 years ago
How expensive is the 5.7x28 round?
I'm planing to buy at least the pistol, but I'm not that sure cos thestupid Mexican laws and the ammo is way to expensive for most guns right now.
aramanx 2 years ago
You can get rounds for about $0.80 / round. It's probably the most expensive hand-gun ammo out there. Save for the 4.6mm or .50AE.
CrazyShooterDood 2 years ago
80 cents....?
LMAO!
More like 30-40 cents (delivered to your door)
Typical SD ammunition like GoldDot, CorBon, Etc cost 25 cents to as much as 1.50 each in the common calibers like 9mm, 45ACP, etc.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Yes, this is true... 30-40 delivered... however, I live in CA and I buy all of my ammo from a retail store. Thus, 80 cents...
CrazyShooterDood 2 years ago
Not our problem that your not a smart shopper.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
well i wouldn't go that far. in case you are not up to date on gun politics these days, california is the most rediculous restrictive state in the country. it is a firearms enthusiasts worst nightmare. to my knowledge there is hardly a company that will ship ammo to CA, let alone at your 'delivered to your door' prices. i am not so sure CSDood has many opportunities aside from the retail store. just food for thought...
lordvader789 2 years ago
A law was just passed banning the mail order of ammunition. We can't order it...
CrazyShooterDood 2 years ago
that's what i thought. fuck california. you should move away from there so we can blow it into the pacific.
lordvader789 2 years ago
That sucks. Here in Virginia (still a free state) I can order truck loads of ammo to my home if I wanted.
wav3form 2 years ago
Comment removed
citabria1969eaa 2 years ago
ya i was reading about the 5.7, that they are designed for high levels of damage, they enter the target and then rotate causing intensly more damage, instead of a 6mm hoole you get a 20something mm hole/exit wound. very high tech.
sweeper27 2 years ago
very good vids man, ive been wondering about the FiveSeven for a while and watching your videos has answered a lot of them, thanks!
randygriffin091391 2 years ago
just like .223 after hitting the target, it tends to spin.slashing every internal organs. am i ryt?
xxg01d2aki 2 years ago
It's traveling so fast it would take a while before it actually starts to yaw/tumble so it doesn't do that much internal damage compared to a .45 auto or 9mm, BUT it's penetrating power is where it beats the .45 and 9mm.
CobaltBlew 2 years ago
This is quite incorrect, the round typically yaws to 90 within 1-3 bullet lengths (depends on round & weapon) which is a shorter distance than it takes most HP ammunition to fully expand (if it even expands at all).
Out of the Fiveseven 5.7mm 'damage' equals or exceeds that caused by typical 9mm SD/HP ammunition. Out of the PS90 'damage' is similar to .357 Magnum.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
whats the easiest gun to shoot?
uogf 2 years ago
Fiveseven
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
so its easier to shoot than a glock?
uogf 2 years ago
MUCH easier to shoot then a glock, it actually weighs less then a glock and shoots about like a .22. A very nice and deadly accurate gun.
Raventhief20 2 years ago
so it tends to turn 90 dedrees a lot
i want to know if thats bad
criticaboutvids 2 years ago
In his other videos, the 5.7x28mm traveled through 7" of phone books side ways. To me, that sounds like a force to be reckoned with.
Great video, I've been looking at a RomAK-3 lately, but for the same price it looks like i could pick up an FN. Mainly its a choice of, a rifle I would only be able to use at the range or in the woods, or a gun that i will rarely be able to find ammo for lol.
cheers
RevArto 2 years ago
Turning 90 is exactly how the bullet is intended to travel after entering it's target, it limits overpenetration while creating a larger potential wound path.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
but its a hollow point...
criticaboutvids 2 years ago
... to alter the CG aft so it turns and stays 90 degrees to it's path while penetrating.
This technique has been used for ages in bullet manufacture to increase accuracy, ballistic coefficient, as well as for this effect after striking it's target.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago