Determinism does not state that future even can be predicted. I remember reading somewhere that with the maximum amount of computational power possible in the universe It would take longer than the entire history of the universe to compute the exact condition and position of every atom in the universe at a single given moment. All determinism states is that everything is governed by casual laws leading to only one possible state for any moment in time
study quantum mechanics, you will find that there will always be uncertainty in your prediction. Laplace was wrong. But I don't blame you for doing this video. you had no chance. And if I say you are naive in your understanding of physics, you will forgive me since I have no choice.
Your speaking of Laplacian determinism. Mathematically determinism says nothing about prediction. Only that each event has a preceding event called its cause. Scientific determinism hold that the laws of nature are the same everywhere in the universe. Its only when philosophers combine these things and assume that only deterministic systems exist when they conclude that they can make far reaching predictions. Free will is not at odds with determinism. They speak to different levels of scrutiny.
The whole part about "it could've been any memory" is not only inaccurate, it's the exact opposite of determinism. Determinism claims that everything proceeds logically from cause to effect. You're claiming that determinists think that anything effect can arise from any cause.
"Your memories make your decision" This makes no sense, and I'm a determinist (technically a compatibilist). There's a complex interplay of factors, some internal, some external, and it can't be reduced to "memories" or "genetics" or "behavioral conditioning" alone. Even if your decisions are causally determined, you're still conscious of them, so how the fuck aren't they your decisions? Also, the whole thing about us not having control is false. We still choose according to our determined will.
@vaguelyhumanoid If your past experiences are what informs your current decisions then decisions are largely a function of memory. You cannot make a decision wiothout some kind of criteria, and that criteria is stored in the memory areas of your brain.
Why did I watch this video? It came up as one of the 'Recommended For You' videos based on my previous viewing. I first got interested in determinism when I read Nietzsche. I read Nietzsche because I stopped believing in God. I stopped believing in God because I read books on religion. I read books on religion because I was curious. I was curious because my parents encouraged me to love books and knowledge from a young age. You can always trace things back and see how free will played no part.
The thing is, we didn't land on this universe like aliens, we grew out of it like apples on a tree. We seem entirely different but we aren't, we are still part of the whole. Our intelligence is a symptom of an intelligent universe, not some great cosmic error. People just like the idea of free will just like they are comfortable with the idea that they are actually an independent being.
I agree with everything you have to say except the bit where you think acknowledging determinism means you can't blame people for wrong doings. There are obvious useful effects of blaming someone - making them feel guilty, pressuring them into changing their behaviour in the future, seeking compensation. Of course the crime was determined, but so is the punishment.
If you take it a step further think can you do anything less than what seems most right to you weather that be morals or sin sure you can puch yourself in the face but why did you do it to prove that you can
No, you can't predict the future, because of the error of Laplace's demon. Basically the machine would need to calculate result of itself. (unteal we can put it in another universe, dimension..)
If determinism didn't exist why would so many giant corporations spend so much money advertising themselves ? If doesn't make any difference ?
Why would parents put their kids into the best colleges, if there is no determinism ?
There is only free will inside the determinism. We all know that. That is the reason why we can kick a ball into a goal. If we want something to happen we have to consider everything involved. If we don't we fail. Free will as some people think of it. is just being MAD.
So, what is this seemingly Universal awareness we all possess that recognises the we may not have free will? The ego will argue we do have free will because....well......that's ego for you! But what is this "other" that says otherwise?
@eugdog106: If you teach something (such as fishing) to someone, you are acting a a causal agent that can affect the other person. Determinism doesn't reject cause and effect. Rather, it's based on cause and effect.
If you teach someone your moral code, you are a cause that will have an effect. Whether the effect you cause will be the one you're hoping for is a whole other story.
determinism isnt that everything can be predicted, it is that everything is predetermined, i think you understand fine, you just misspoke. I don't think that even in theory it would be possible to predict the future even with a supercomputer, what would be the receiver of all the information, and when receiving the information, wouldn't that change the position of parts of the receiver?
@UnsatiableEloquence: Determinism is NOT an ethical or logistical system. It is simply a description of what is. It is simply the observation that everything seems to be bound by the laws of cause and effect (including us).
yeah in thepry its true personally i believe in it but idont believe it can be prodictate because the computer cant concluate itself its being or the process of its creation
but determinizem is true imagine a ball starting to roll down a hill \9this case an infinite hill) after he starts his course is set thers no free will or anything like that the same with anything in the universe
Ive been thinking about determinism for a while now and let me ask you this... If a human being had the capability to know the location of all the matter in the universe and all the laws of nature (in other words all you need to predict the future in determinism), would that person be able to see their future? if they could wouldnt the natural human response be to defy that future? and if they did then determinism is wrong. Or if not wouldnt the actions of that person be unpredictable?
I don't believe your premise is sound. It would seem something that was capable of storing that much information would have to be as large as the universe itself.
determinists do not often try to predict the future, being incapable of making a powerful machine to make predictions does not change the fact that, there is no free will, because you are the result of a past
A machine incapable of theoretically finding the "answer" to such a super equation does not need to exist in order for there to NOT be freewill. Your regurgitating information I already know. Thanks but no thanks.
The quantum measurement problem is not a solution to the paradox of predicting the future. It is a genuine problem in quantum physics. However it is avoided in bohmian mechanics.
Its as simple as this: Either you believe in determinism or you are denying cause and effect. If your thinking about fighting determinism with quantum physics then first look up bohmian mechanics. Even if causeless events are possible, it doesn't follow that freewill exists. No one can live as though they don't have free will. And no, you can't live your life by determinism and neither should you.
Some religions have recognized free will is an illusion and adapted their beliefs accordingly. For example, check out "Calvinism."
Traffic signals take advantage of determinism. An accident is much more likely without the signal than with it.
The individual's understanding and awareness may be determined by previous brain development and learning experiences, but once the awareness of the necessity of signals develops, the individual is suicidal who doesn't install the necessary traffic light.
Beware of getting bogged down in a quagmire of rhetorical complexity. Do you talk about free will and predestination when discussing the behavior of bees? When you discuss the behavior of the World Wide Web, do you talk about the Big Bang and determinism? You should use Occam's Razor to slice away unnecessary complexity. State the facts as they are: The brain is a physical organ, developed according to the laws of cause and effect, and functions in a physical universe according to physical laws.
I would like to know your definition of "mind" and "memory". Have you heard of radical behaviorism? This view on human behavior is consistent with your discussion here.
its probably impossible to observe the mechanism of operation because free will implies randomness and randomness cannot be measured or predicted....because its random! Here is basically what free will is all about: You can place an orange into a juicer and get orange juice one time and get apple juice another time! Oranges will only give OJ so free will and randomness must not exist. The same initial conditions will ALWAYS give the same outcomes, as long as the mechanism is the same.1+1=2 4ever
Just because the robber is a robber because he grew up in a shitty neighborhood doesnt make robbing ok. Thats the dumbass argument that people make when you say that they have no free will. They say "well then we shouldnt lock up criminals cause it wasnt their fault". The laws serve as a deterrent and those who break them are removed from society so that they wont interfere with our lives. Maybe free will does exist but so far i have yet to see the mechanism by which is operates.
as far as determinism and blame goes, iv heard this analogy many times, and i think it is satisfactory. maybe it can help you too: if you have a car that doesn't work, you will get it fixed, or get a new car. of course the car does not choose to be dysfunctional, so it is not its "fault" in the conventional sense. nevertheless, the problem of it not working still needs to be dealt with.
peter it is jeremy and i have to say that before this summer i actually came across this belief and changed my viewpoint to include this theory. in theory you could say that the first event ever to happen to you for example as soon as you were let out of hospital you dorve in a car for 2 hours would then determine your entire life after because that event would affect the next event
True but also not true. You pointed out well why its true, because it WILL affect your entire life by affecting the next event. False is the wrong word, ''less significant'' would be the one to use, because regardless of what means of transportation you used to get home after you got out of the hospital, chances are you were still going home, and you would have still been hungry after X hours of leaving the hospital, same for sleepy, poopy, burpy etc, ure right but the impact is not THAT big.
you see heres were you are wrong in that i garuntee no 2 car rides you have ever been on have been the same that diffrence of 2 minutes or your parents honking at another car or even your dad complaining about a red light would in turn affect your next event the whole point of determinism is little events and changes effect everything else
errm no, you are wrong here. You are talking about the butterfly effect, which is not excluded by determinism, but also not confirmed by it. The whole point of determinism is that if we knew all the variables we could predict all the variables. The magnitude to which certain events affect your personality and choices depends on a variety of factors. A car ride can change your future, that's true, but irrelevant to the theory of determinism.
you obviously did not see my first post all i am saying is that the first variable affects all other variables after it which is a part of determinism you should do a little more research
Your view that determinism somehow doesn't let you assign responsibility to people is also very strange. Compatibilism, the philosophy that combines determinism and free will, was motivated for the specific reason of creating a rational theory of responsibility.
Without determinism, why in the world would you punish anyone? There would be no reason to suspect they'd do X again if their choices are random. There's also no reason to think punishment(barring destruction) would affect the future.
Suppose a wounded hero of a foreign war returned home to recover from brain injury. He attacks and kills a security guard at the airport because the guard was mistaken as the enemy. Obviously this wounded hero wasn't "morally responsible" for his act. Should he therefore be released instead of treated and rehabilitated? In fact, what does so called "moral responsibility" have to do with the apprehension, treatment, and rehabilitation of any individuals deemed a threat to themselves or society?
@Grintoth Think about it there is reason to punish people because it helps them, u, and everyone else in so many ways.. I think that when you apply determinism to the question of how to punish people it becomes clear that we should never punish people past corrective measures.. The problem is we have no where near the capability to practically put that into practice right now.. Eventually though it seems like humans'll have the capability to do that..
@Grintoth yes you can, i do, punishment or law is just the lesser of two evils, its only purpose is to act as a deterrent, the evil is sending people to prison who are not morally responsible for their actions , but the alternative to doing so would be worse for overall level of human well being.
i think that compatibilism only works when you define free will in such a way that it doesnt mean the same thing anymore. and i agree that it was just made up so that people that believe determinism is true can still say 'oh but there is reason to be accountable for your actions'.
i dont think there is any accountability at all. but i still live my life under the assumtion there is. im kidding myself i no. but its just easy and more practical.
Actually, determinism does not preclude punishing behavior you do not want- it mandates EFFECTIVE punishment. The whole idea of punishing someone is to teach both them and others that their actions were wrong.
@Gnomefro Regardless of whether or not someone has freewill that person committed the crime. And to REHABILITATE that person into society they are punished. Prison is just timeout for adults.
Wow... lots of confusion here. What in the world do you think "you" are, if not your body, complete with memories, perception and decision making circuits?
Why would you not call it free will when this system analyzes a situation according to its own nature(That is *your* nature) and selects an action?
Is free will only free in your mind if it makes decisions contrary to your nature?!? How would such a thing even possible? And, if you had no nature, how could a choice be "yours".
Free will was originally a verb describing supposed choices made by a soul--an imaginary construct that could causally effect the physical body but could not be effected by anything physical. Free will was defined as the ability to make choices "without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1975)) People still believe the bull shit when they use the term. Others who know better keep the illusion alive. Why call something free that isn't?
He's right. All there is is cause and effect. You wrote your criticisms in reply to the video. The video post was the cause and your reply was the effect. Grintoth owns you , haha.
Given this day over again, knowing what you knew this morning - no more or no less, you would of course end up again at this moment where you are now. You had to make the choices you did because you did!
I don't get what's so hard to grasp about determinism. Everything can be broken down to calculations and that is what determinism is. One long calculation of cause and effect. Factor in the physical laws of the universe and the respective energy and matter and we could determine the outcome of the universe from the initial conditions of the big bang.
Determinism doesn't explain everything. Surely there must be a deterministic aspect of existance because 1+1=2. However sometimes you are faced with two or more possible choices to make with an exactly equal ammount of appeal. Neither is more attractive than the other. Its foolish to think these types of events don't take place in existance that you have to equally valid choices or two equal values for two different things. In the least it takes true randomness to make the choice.
A choice isn't made through preference (which is actually a neurological reaction of chemical exchange and electrical impulse, which can be measured, like 1+1=2) alone, but through a myriad of contributing factors such as personal experience, instinctual response, genetic coding, hormonal balance etc etc (it's a huge list).
You will never have a choice in your life where you and the world around you is in the cohesion you describe that allows that 50/50 scenario.
They've already proven that sometimes there is a 50/50 outcome possible from one set of causes and in the atomic world sometimes both outcomes are produced. A cesium atom was super positioned spinning in two different directions at once and separated from itself into both outcomes. Under normal circumstances at least randomness would've kicked in and only one state wouldve been attained. But under experimental conditions both were observed. It was done with lasers.
But randomness is not free will. But it's also not deterministic. The point is that one set of causes can lead to multiple possible outcomes. Kinda like Root25 would be a cause and the outcome could be -5 or +5
My point was that you will never make a choice that is controlled in a laboratory environment. You will never have lasers in your head pulling the heads or tails of your decision apart to perfectly, scientifically and mathematically balance the outcome of your choice.
You say there is a theoretical plethora of outcomes in reality and yet we only experience one.
Also applying root25 is a nice and simple counter argument, I like it! ... It's irrelevant in a physical system however.
It's not irrelevant because if you are a real determinist the universe is just like a complex mathematical function and it's describable by one in theory finite but very complex one. And my point is that sometimes one set of causes can have multiple possible outcomes. LIke I said this doesnt prove free will. At best it proves randomness. But sudden acts of randomness which would be necessary in this case disprove a solid deterministic view. I'm a compatibilist.
I agree that determinism is best described through mathematics. Your example of root assumes that in the deterministic universe there is room for an equation to reach an undetermined solution, thus you are no longer talking about determinism.
One set of causes will always have the idea of multiple outcomes, because humans can create abstract ideas and discuss 'what if' scenarios, but there will only ever be one outcome.
Determinism is best ignored. Whether we have free will or not we have at the very least the illusion of free will. This causes us to view ourselves as free and thus responsible for our lives, values and actions. In this state of perceived free will, the view that we are acting is far preferable to the view that we are reacting, as those who view themselves as acting become productive, forget about determinism, live happy lives and some of them even get to be existentialists (yay!)...
well, you were determined to say and think that like i am replying to you. you cant decide to accept or reject determinism. so making a preference is absurd. however, you couldnt have done otherwise. life is like were strapped into a roller coaster until we die.
Free will is an illusion. Even so, it is an actual illusion. The illusion is as much an event as a ball rolling.
It's fine to understand that you really have no control. Until we have the computing power to analyze and predict the world around us there is nothing to be done.
So live your life through an illusion. And enjoy it.
Heisenbergs theory doesn't allow you to know exactly where a particle will go...The more you know the position the less you know of the speed and vice versa.
...shot along neurons (or however it works!). So when your talking about measure the position and velocity of every particle in the universe to predict the future, I think you could even include the brain and thinking as measurable too. If you see what I'm saying :-S :-)
Anyway what I was going to say was this: In my opinion, as a materialist as well as a determinist, I believe that even the thoughts and emotions (etc) of a living organism like us could potentially be physically measured with the right (godlike) technology. I think that our minds, although incredibly intricate and complicated, they are still a physical system - our thoughts are physical, electrons being
Obviously thousands of previous events effect a current event like the 'knocking a glass over' scenario you mentioned, but I think you were just simplifying it when you said about perhaps it was a 'bad 12th birthday'?
I agree with you on almost everything. I have thought about this subject a lot as well and I came up with the exact same coin analogy as you. I believe in determinism but I think that you misunderstand the implications of it. Like you said, you flip a coin and it has to land on heads or tails. There is a 100% chance of one or the other. Likewise, everyone's future will unfold in one certain way. It has to. This however doesn't mean we don't have free will.
You imply that the universe will go the way it will go and we have no choice in the matter. You imply that we can't make decisions for ourselves becuase everything that happens had to happen. I disagree, decisions we make have EVERYTHING to do with the way the future will unfold. We are not trapped in an inevitable outcome but rather we are making our own outcome with the choices we make. So yeah I agree with you that the future must happen one way, but not that that way is set in stone.
Determinism Is kind of depressing I suppose, but thats only because humans like to feel as though they are in control of their own lives, and the realization that we don't even have free-will is kind of scary.
Just live your life as you would normally, because really do you think knowing free-will is an illusion really going to affect your plans on Friday night?
Just suppose that your life are already decide and planned without you knowing it. Even your death and the way of death would have been already decided. How would you react to it ? AndWhat meaning would life have for you ?
ok gravity exists, so it would be best to lay down on the floor since standing up needs so much energy (fighting gravity) but we don´t lay down for obvious reasons.
now i think determinism exists too, so we could give a shit about everything, since you can´t control it anyways. but we don´t for obvious reasons... people confuse determinism with some kind of religion or lifestyle ..well it´s not ..it´s just a way to describe how matter interacts, like gravity...well at least i think so :)
This is excellent. It looks as though you put time into thinking about the problem of free will. My only critique has do deal with the analogy you use of "starting at point A and going to point B". Causal chains don't have a start and they don't come to an end. Otherwise, I enjoyed the video.
um no, wat destroys this theory would have to be humans, seeing as we do unpredictable things all the time. wen u bring in emotion and thought, this is not possible. people cannot be calculated, even with their experiences, people make mistakes and only think for the moment that their actions are justified. you cannot calculate even with all past experiences known, which ones ppl will learn the most from and how they will use them wen later justifying something.
Sure, it's beyond our comprehension and it can't really be calculated, but our minds are nothing but chemicals, nerves, and tissue. We're machines, essentially. There is no such thing as a random decision. Let's say you buy a chocolate ice cream cone. You do this because you had one a few days ago and it was really damn good. An event like this isn't random at all, nor are any other decisions you may make. Just because it's beyond our comprehension doesn't mean it's true.
For example, there are suns that are millions, billions, maybe even trillions the size of Earth. We know this for a fact, yet could we ever wrap our heads about it? Absolutely not. Something of that magnitude is just far beyond our puny little minds. How did the universe come into existence? Could we ever figure that out, let alone comprehend it? Probably not. So we take the easy way out, and claim that some greater being is in control of everything. Meh, I beg to differ.
Don't get me wrong, we definitely have willpower. But is it really within our control? Well, sort of. We want to do something, so we do it. But where did that decision itself come from? Who knows. Like I said, I wouldn't try to live by this concept. I think it would drive anyone insane. As much as I believe in it, I could never apply it to my life. I'll always feel like I'm the one in control, and that's the way it should be.
well the entire concept is dependent on a person's past experiences, but wat would rule the first choice any1 ever made ever? or the first thing that ever happened?
debating with you is fun, thnx for such an interesting conversation =D
No problem! I love discussions like this, as rare as they are.
Hmm... the first decision. Well, a person's temper, personality, moodiness, etc. are slightly shaped by the genes of their parents. I guess their first decision would be dependent on their experience in the womb. I think instinct would kick in. The first action people do is usually cry. For one reason or another, I came into this world with a straight face. Like you said, this sort of thing can't really be calculated.
but that wouldnt work cause it isnt like you can remember those experiences hence its not like they could affect your future choices. in the end it rlly is completely dependent on the person
Ah, true, but imagine this: the experiences in the womb would affect your first action, which would affect your second, and so on. This chain of events would lead to the decisions you make today.
well then instinct throws the theory out the window, since ppl's instincts often cause ppl to react completely differently then others even in the same situation. so the first move is unpredictable, and based on that everything else is drawn (in a very vague sense) hence your destiny is formed at the very first time you do anything?
Well, you could look at it that way if you want to. I think instinctual reactions could be calculated just like any other reaction, as sporadic and random as they may seem.
well if you go back to the idea of the coin flipping, the only reason that chance exists is because we don't know everything (of course impossible) and because this is impossible for us, there will always be chance in this world. obviously because we dont know everything, we cant predict much and so we dont know how things will happen and cant control some things (like the way the coin lands) hence in our minds it is a matter of chance. if we knew everything chance itself would be abolished.
Yes, my point exactly :) We can't predict every little event, but, in theory, there is only one possible outcome. We don't know what it is, but it's there.
Awesome! That's my kind of argument; one where neither side is too narrow-minded to understand any of their opponents views. Thanks for that fun little debate- it was great while it lasted!
I dont get it like i rode in the box of a truck and i never done that before... or drink, chew and all that shit. or i could use not such a great one like suicide
I agree. Though I am unsure if the universe is completely deterministic (in the philosophical sense of the word), as randomness has at least some possibility. I think randomness is, however, very unlikely (there are logical problems of events coming from nothing, and there is no evidence for this...even in QM). (MORE)
Regardless if the universe is deterministic or inderterministic, I do not believe in free will, as the idea is logically incompatable with both a deterministic and an indeterministic universe.
Well my believes are largely shaped by science. Now science doesn't have an answer that proves there is free will. On the flip side there's plenty of evidence that suggest your actions and personality are shaped by your environment.
By the same token I don't believe in determinism. I studied physics for 4 yrs in college and from experimentation I can personally tell you that both speed and position of every particle is undeterminable. That the laws of quantum mechanics regulate every cont.
Now what you were talking about early in the video the probability of different outcomes would be called the quantum mechanical propagation of the multiuniverse. String theory supports this reality... big problem with it, is it's untestable by experimentation, so *shrug* who knows.
I happen to believe in free will because I think it's important to believe in your ability to change bad habits.... I don't have any proof that their is free will
actually I have more evidence to prove the contrary. But humans don't really exist fully within reality as it is, since what we know of reality is gain solely through perception. This kind of logic leads to much tangled philosophical discussions on what is reality and does it really exist. Which I think is a bunch a baloni.
Not because such questions don't have merit... but rather that they just cause distraction away from the whole point of philosophy...
How can my believes, perceptions, and ideas help achieve my goals and passions in life. The purpose of having ideas is not to enslave ourselves to them, but to use them to make our lives better. idk, what to say from this point because ideas are still necessary when someone chooses to be rational and responsible. Which I feel makes humanity better..... long discussion that leads to no definite conclusions, I'm not a big fan of the determinism discussion.
--> thus turning the thing we've 'read' into 'not-the-future'. I like to think that 'You can predict the past but you can't change it, and you can change the future but you can't predict it''. For example, if I studied a person's personality for years, I could predict all of his actions in every given condition, but there would always be an ever so slight chance that he will do something else than what I expect, not due to randomness however, but due to factors unknown to me.
I haven't mapped out a complete theory for this yet, but I currently believe that the heisenberg uncertainty principle within determinism can be explained by the idea that we can't know both the position and velocity of sub-atomic particles (and perhaps other factors at sub-atomic levels) because that would ultimately result in us knowing the future, which would result in a paradox, because the future can not be 100% accurately predicted because that would enable us to change it -->
even if we predicted the future, we would have been planned to predict the future.
Also about that alternate universe based on choices thing, we just talked about that in English and while I doubt it's true, it's a really amazing concept
Quantum mechanics people :)
LachlanJG 3 months ago
the universe really is nothing but a big billiard table
ixataca 5 months ago
Determinism does not state that future even can be predicted. I remember reading somewhere that with the maximum amount of computational power possible in the universe It would take longer than the entire history of the universe to compute the exact condition and position of every atom in the universe at a single given moment. All determinism states is that everything is governed by casual laws leading to only one possible state for any moment in time
SleepingxWithxGhosts 9 months ago
study quantum mechanics, you will find that there will always be uncertainty in your prediction. Laplace was wrong. But I don't blame you for doing this video. you had no chance. And if I say you are naive in your understanding of physics, you will forgive me since I have no choice.
estragon9 1 year ago
Your speaking of Laplacian determinism. Mathematically determinism says nothing about prediction. Only that each event has a preceding event called its cause. Scientific determinism hold that the laws of nature are the same everywhere in the universe. Its only when philosophers combine these things and assume that only deterministic systems exist when they conclude that they can make far reaching predictions. Free will is not at odds with determinism. They speak to different levels of scrutiny.
UponGiantsShoulders 1 year ago
The whole part about "it could've been any memory" is not only inaccurate, it's the exact opposite of determinism. Determinism claims that everything proceeds logically from cause to effect. You're claiming that determinists think that anything effect can arise from any cause.
vaguelyhumanoid 1 year ago
"Your memories make your decision" This makes no sense, and I'm a determinist (technically a compatibilist). There's a complex interplay of factors, some internal, some external, and it can't be reduced to "memories" or "genetics" or "behavioral conditioning" alone. Even if your decisions are causally determined, you're still conscious of them, so how the fuck aren't they your decisions? Also, the whole thing about us not having control is false. We still choose according to our determined will.
vaguelyhumanoid 1 year ago
@vaguelyhumanoid If your past experiences are what informs your current decisions then decisions are largely a function of memory. You cannot make a decision wiothout some kind of criteria, and that criteria is stored in the memory areas of your brain.
NBTY4ever 1 year ago
Why did I watch this video? It came up as one of the 'Recommended For You' videos based on my previous viewing. I first got interested in determinism when I read Nietzsche. I read Nietzsche because I stopped believing in God. I stopped believing in God because I read books on religion. I read books on religion because I was curious. I was curious because my parents encouraged me to love books and knowledge from a young age. You can always trace things back and see how free will played no part.
Steve7508 1 year ago
naw, i came to the conclusion we were determined a while back and it doesn't feel care-free you kinda just forget about the fact
spilledinsanity 1 year ago
The thing is, we didn't land on this universe like aliens, we grew out of it like apples on a tree. We seem entirely different but we aren't, we are still part of the whole. Our intelligence is a symptom of an intelligent universe, not some great cosmic error. People just like the idea of free will just like they are comfortable with the idea that they are actually an independent being.
spilledinsanity 1 year ago
I agree with everything you have to say except the bit where you think acknowledging determinism means you can't blame people for wrong doings. There are obvious useful effects of blaming someone - making them feel guilty, pressuring them into changing their behaviour in the future, seeking compensation. Of course the crime was determined, but so is the punishment.
crowbs90 1 year ago
If you take it a step further think can you do anything less than what seems most right to you weather that be morals or sin sure you can puch yourself in the face but why did you do it to prove that you can
jaa620spencer 1 year ago
No, you can't predict the future, because of the error of Laplace's demon. Basically the machine would need to calculate result of itself. (unteal we can put it in another universe, dimension..)
Winsucker 1 year ago
If determinism didn't exist why would so many giant corporations spend so much money advertising themselves ? If doesn't make any difference ?
Why would parents put their kids into the best colleges, if there is no determinism ?
There is only free will inside the determinism. We all know that. That is the reason why we can kick a ball into a goal. If we want something to happen we have to consider everything involved. If we don't we fail. Free will as some people think of it. is just being MAD.
gustavocologni 1 year ago
I agree with you but what do you think about the uncertainty principle?
Authenticity3 1 year ago
So, what is this seemingly Universal awareness we all possess that recognises the we may not have free will? The ego will argue we do have free will because....well......that's ego for you! But what is this "other" that says otherwise?
fizzyfox 1 year ago
Determinism is NOT a theory. Its a non materialistic philosophical view of the way our universe works.
Im a determinist, but science deals with methodological materialism, and this therefore is NOT a theory.
roxasroks 1 year ago
all morality presupposes freewill. What would be the point of teaching people morality IF THEY did not have the freewill to implement it?
eugdog106 1 year ago
@eugdog106: If you teach something (such as fishing) to someone, you are acting a a causal agent that can affect the other person. Determinism doesn't reject cause and effect. Rather, it's based on cause and effect.
If you teach someone your moral code, you are a cause that will have an effect. Whether the effect you cause will be the one you're hoping for is a whole other story.
D4Shawn 1 year ago
determinism isnt that everything can be predicted, it is that everything is predetermined, i think you understand fine, you just misspoke. I don't think that even in theory it would be possible to predict the future even with a supercomputer, what would be the receiver of all the information, and when receiving the information, wouldn't that change the position of parts of the receiver?
rt36crazyfists 1 year ago
@rt36crazyfists Haha yeah, and he misused the word "theory".
roxasroks 1 year ago
Determinism is non-complimentary to accountability or responsibility.
I'm aware of the argument that prediction or forknowledge comprimises our potential influence to bring about an otherwise event.
Determinism is basically impractical and useless. A monetary society would never stand on the grounds of determinism.
Everyone would be a murderer and thief and nobody would be responsible for anything anymore.
UnsatiableEloquence 2 years ago
@UnsatiableEloquence
You don't know what you're talking about, Determinism is not an ideology.
jokerrSmilez 1 year ago
@UnsatiableEloquence: Determinism is NOT an ethical or logistical system. It is simply a description of what is. It is simply the observation that everything seems to be bound by the laws of cause and effect (including us).
D4Shawn 1 year ago
you think to much
bluestarofdavid2 2 years ago
Good video. I've had the same thoughts.
TheOtherVenkman 2 years ago
yeah in thepry its true personally i believe in it but idont believe it can be prodictate because the computer cant concluate itself its being or the process of its creation
but determinizem is true imagine a ball starting to roll down a hill \9this case an infinite hill) after he starts his course is set thers no free will or anything like that the same with anything in the universe
bonia15 2 years ago
Ive been thinking about determinism for a while now and let me ask you this... If a human being had the capability to know the location of all the matter in the universe and all the laws of nature (in other words all you need to predict the future in determinism), would that person be able to see their future? if they could wouldnt the natural human response be to defy that future? and if they did then determinism is wrong. Or if not wouldnt the actions of that person be unpredictable?
jacobfourteen 2 years ago
I don't believe your premise is sound. It would seem something that was capable of storing that much information would have to be as large as the universe itself.
TheOtherVenkman 2 years ago
@TheOtherVenkman that's not the point
determinists do not often try to predict the future, being incapable of making a powerful machine to make predictions does not change the fact that, there is no free will, because you are the result of a past
ClaytonTSheets 2 years ago
A machine incapable of theoretically finding the "answer" to such a super equation does not need to exist in order for there to NOT be freewill. Your regurgitating information I already know. Thanks but no thanks.
TheOtherVenkman 2 years ago
@jacobfourteen predicting the future would be a part of the determinism, its not separate
ClaytonTSheets 2 years ago
The quantum measurement problem is not a solution to the paradox of predicting the future. It is a genuine problem in quantum physics. However it is avoided in bohmian mechanics.
flangecake2000 2 years ago
Its as simple as this: Either you believe in determinism or you are denying cause and effect. If your thinking about fighting determinism with quantum physics then first look up bohmian mechanics. Even if causeless events are possible, it doesn't follow that freewill exists. No one can live as though they don't have free will. And no, you can't live your life by determinism and neither should you.
flangecake2000 2 years ago
Some religions have recognized free will is an illusion and adapted their beliefs accordingly. For example, check out "Calvinism."
Traffic signals take advantage of determinism. An accident is much more likely without the signal than with it.
The individual's understanding and awareness may be determined by previous brain development and learning experiences, but once the awareness of the necessity of signals develops, the individual is suicidal who doesn't install the necessary traffic light.
unseenstrings 2 years ago
Beware of getting bogged down in a quagmire of rhetorical complexity. Do you talk about free will and predestination when discussing the behavior of bees? When you discuss the behavior of the World Wide Web, do you talk about the Big Bang and determinism? You should use Occam's Razor to slice away unnecessary complexity. State the facts as they are: The brain is a physical organ, developed according to the laws of cause and effect, and functions in a physical universe according to physical laws.
unseenstrings 2 years ago
@unseenstrings This is true. I was resistant at first, but I guess "free will" is just a phrase anyway.
tiecuando 2 years ago
I would like to know your definition of "mind" and "memory". Have you heard of radical behaviorism? This view on human behavior is consistent with your discussion here.
beachwv 2 years ago
its probably impossible to observe the mechanism of operation because free will implies randomness and randomness cannot be measured or predicted....because its random! Here is basically what free will is all about: You can place an orange into a juicer and get orange juice one time and get apple juice another time! Oranges will only give OJ so free will and randomness must not exist. The same initial conditions will ALWAYS give the same outcomes, as long as the mechanism is the same.1+1=2 4ever
Anexor 2 years ago
Just because the robber is a robber because he grew up in a shitty neighborhood doesnt make robbing ok. Thats the dumbass argument that people make when you say that they have no free will. They say "well then we shouldnt lock up criminals cause it wasnt their fault". The laws serve as a deterrent and those who break them are removed from society so that they wont interfere with our lives. Maybe free will does exist but so far i have yet to see the mechanism by which is operates.
Anexor 2 years ago
as far as determinism and blame goes, iv heard this analogy many times, and i think it is satisfactory. maybe it can help you too: if you have a car that doesn't work, you will get it fixed, or get a new car. of course the car does not choose to be dysfunctional, so it is not its "fault" in the conventional sense. nevertheless, the problem of it not working still needs to be dealt with.
we're all cars, as it were.
daniel0B 2 years ago 5
well said, well said.
kittygirl792 2 years ago
peter it is jeremy and i have to say that before this summer i actually came across this belief and changed my viewpoint to include this theory. in theory you could say that the first event ever to happen to you for example as soon as you were let out of hospital you dorve in a car for 2 hours would then determine your entire life after because that event would affect the next event
slitherskyable 2 years ago
True but also not true. You pointed out well why its true, because it WILL affect your entire life by affecting the next event. False is the wrong word, ''less significant'' would be the one to use, because regardless of what means of transportation you used to get home after you got out of the hospital, chances are you were still going home, and you would have still been hungry after X hours of leaving the hospital, same for sleepy, poopy, burpy etc, ure right but the impact is not THAT big.
Daymjo 2 years ago
you see heres were you are wrong in that i garuntee no 2 car rides you have ever been on have been the same that diffrence of 2 minutes or your parents honking at another car or even your dad complaining about a red light would in turn affect your next event the whole point of determinism is little events and changes effect everything else
slitherskyable 2 years ago
errm no, you are wrong here. You are talking about the butterfly effect, which is not excluded by determinism, but also not confirmed by it. The whole point of determinism is that if we knew all the variables we could predict all the variables. The magnitude to which certain events affect your personality and choices depends on a variety of factors. A car ride can change your future, that's true, but irrelevant to the theory of determinism.
d3ady1337 2 years ago
you obviously did not see my first post all i am saying is that the first variable affects all other variables after it which is a part of determinism you should do a little more research
slitherskyable 2 years ago
Your view that determinism somehow doesn't let you assign responsibility to people is also very strange. Compatibilism, the philosophy that combines determinism and free will, was motivated for the specific reason of creating a rational theory of responsibility.
Without determinism, why in the world would you punish anyone? There would be no reason to suspect they'd do X again if their choices are random. There's also no reason to think punishment(barring destruction) would affect the future.
Gnomefro 2 years ago
I completely understand where you're coming from. Thus I cannot truly accept Determinism and apply it to my values.
Grintoth 2 years ago
Suppose a wounded hero of a foreign war returned home to recover from brain injury. He attacks and kills a security guard at the airport because the guard was mistaken as the enemy. Obviously this wounded hero wasn't "morally responsible" for his act. Should he therefore be released instead of treated and rehabilitated? In fact, what does so called "moral responsibility" have to do with the apprehension, treatment, and rehabilitation of any individuals deemed a threat to themselves or society?
unseenstrings 2 years ago
@Grintoth Think about it there is reason to punish people because it helps them, u, and everyone else in so many ways.. I think that when you apply determinism to the question of how to punish people it becomes clear that we should never punish people past corrective measures.. The problem is we have no where near the capability to practically put that into practice right now.. Eventually though it seems like humans'll have the capability to do that..
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
@Grintoth yes you can, i do, punishment or law is just the lesser of two evils, its only purpose is to act as a deterrent, the evil is sending people to prison who are not morally responsible for their actions , but the alternative to doing so would be worse for overall level of human well being.
lee0slayer 1 year ago
i think that compatibilism only works when you define free will in such a way that it doesnt mean the same thing anymore. and i agree that it was just made up so that people that believe determinism is true can still say 'oh but there is reason to be accountable for your actions'.
i dont think there is any accountability at all. but i still live my life under the assumtion there is. im kidding myself i no. but its just easy and more practical.
mowgli123456789 2 years ago
@Gnomefro
Actually, determinism does not preclude punishing behavior you do not want- it mandates EFFECTIVE punishment. The whole idea of punishing someone is to teach both them and others that their actions were wrong.
slapdashbr 1 year ago
@Gnomefro Regardless of whether or not someone has freewill that person committed the crime. And to REHABILITATE that person into society they are punished. Prison is just timeout for adults.
Virginityrocks 1 year ago
Wow... lots of confusion here. What in the world do you think "you" are, if not your body, complete with memories, perception and decision making circuits?
Why would you not call it free will when this system analyzes a situation according to its own nature(That is *your* nature) and selects an action?
Is free will only free in your mind if it makes decisions contrary to your nature?!? How would such a thing even possible? And, if you had no nature, how could a choice be "yours".
Gnomefro 2 years ago 2
Free will was originally a verb describing supposed choices made by a soul--an imaginary construct that could causally effect the physical body but could not be effected by anything physical. Free will was defined as the ability to make choices "without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1975)) People still believe the bull shit when they use the term. Others who know better keep the illusion alive. Why call something free that isn't?
unseenstrings 2 years ago
great video
turtlevillage 2 years ago
He's right. All there is is cause and effect. You wrote your criticisms in reply to the video. The video post was the cause and your reply was the effect. Grintoth owns you , haha.
paterson1969 2 years ago
Given this day over again, knowing what you knew this morning - no more or no less, you would of course end up again at this moment where you are now. You had to make the choices you did because you did!
BillyBlanks26 2 years ago
I don't get what's so hard to grasp about determinism. Everything can be broken down to calculations and that is what determinism is. One long calculation of cause and effect. Factor in the physical laws of the universe and the respective energy and matter and we could determine the outcome of the universe from the initial conditions of the big bang.
Newton was a determinist fyi.
fikchun 2 years ago
Determinism doesn't explain everything. Surely there must be a deterministic aspect of existance because 1+1=2. However sometimes you are faced with two or more possible choices to make with an exactly equal ammount of appeal. Neither is more attractive than the other. Its foolish to think these types of events don't take place in existance that you have to equally valid choices or two equal values for two different things. In the least it takes true randomness to make the choice.
ICANGO247 2 years ago
At best it takes something like free will.
ICANGO247 2 years ago
Way to over-simplify.
A choice isn't made through preference (which is actually a neurological reaction of chemical exchange and electrical impulse, which can be measured, like 1+1=2) alone, but through a myriad of contributing factors such as personal experience, instinctual response, genetic coding, hormonal balance etc etc (it's a huge list).
You will never have a choice in your life where you and the world around you is in the cohesion you describe that allows that 50/50 scenario.
fikchun 2 years ago
They've already proven that sometimes there is a 50/50 outcome possible from one set of causes and in the atomic world sometimes both outcomes are produced. A cesium atom was super positioned spinning in two different directions at once and separated from itself into both outcomes. Under normal circumstances at least randomness would've kicked in and only one state wouldve been attained. But under experimental conditions both were observed. It was done with lasers.
ICANGO247 2 years ago
But randomness is not free will. But it's also not deterministic. The point is that one set of causes can lead to multiple possible outcomes. Kinda like Root25 would be a cause and the outcome could be -5 or +5
ICANGO247 2 years ago
My point was that you will never make a choice that is controlled in a laboratory environment. You will never have lasers in your head pulling the heads or tails of your decision apart to perfectly, scientifically and mathematically balance the outcome of your choice.
You say there is a theoretical plethora of outcomes in reality and yet we only experience one.
Also applying root25 is a nice and simple counter argument, I like it! ... It's irrelevant in a physical system however.
fikchun 2 years ago
It's not irrelevant because if you are a real determinist the universe is just like a complex mathematical function and it's describable by one in theory finite but very complex one. And my point is that sometimes one set of causes can have multiple possible outcomes. LIke I said this doesnt prove free will. At best it proves randomness. But sudden acts of randomness which would be necessary in this case disprove a solid deterministic view. I'm a compatibilist.
ICANGO247 2 years ago
I agree that determinism is best described through mathematics. Your example of root assumes that in the deterministic universe there is room for an equation to reach an undetermined solution, thus you are no longer talking about determinism.
One set of causes will always have the idea of multiple outcomes, because humans can create abstract ideas and discuss 'what if' scenarios, but there will only ever be one outcome.
fikchun 2 years ago
In any case I hardly see why whether or not we have free will or the illusion of it matters, save for a few philosophical assumptions in psychology.
vooooom 2 years ago
than forget what i said. also, i agree with your past two comments
MajorDylan 2 years ago
Those who fail to do so end up doing literally nothing.
vooooom 2 years ago
Determinism is best ignored. Whether we have free will or not we have at the very least the illusion of free will. This causes us to view ourselves as free and thus responsible for our lives, values and actions. In this state of perceived free will, the view that we are acting is far preferable to the view that we are reacting, as those who view themselves as acting become productive, forget about determinism, live happy lives and some of them even get to be existentialists (yay!)...
vooooom 2 years ago
well, you were determined to say and think that like i am replying to you. you cant decide to accept or reject determinism. so making a preference is absurd. however, you couldnt have done otherwise. life is like were strapped into a roller coaster until we die.
MajorDylan 2 years ago
I never said I had a preference. I said that we live with the illusion of free will, which is just as good as actual free will.
vooooom 2 years ago
Free will is an illusion. Even so, it is an actual illusion. The illusion is as much an event as a ball rolling.
It's fine to understand that you really have no control. Until we have the computing power to analyze and predict the world around us there is nothing to be done.
So live your life through an illusion. And enjoy it.
Impossiboss 2 years ago
Heisenbergs theory doesn't allow you to know exactly where a particle will go...The more you know the position the less you know of the speed and vice versa.
naugler24 2 years ago
...shot along neurons (or however it works!). So when your talking about measure the position and velocity of every particle in the universe to predict the future, I think you could even include the brain and thinking as measurable too. If you see what I'm saying :-S :-)
DiscoDaveCockleboy 2 years ago
Anyway what I was going to say was this: In my opinion, as a materialist as well as a determinist, I believe that even the thoughts and emotions (etc) of a living organism like us could potentially be physically measured with the right (godlike) technology. I think that our minds, although incredibly intricate and complicated, they are still a physical system - our thoughts are physical, electrons being
DiscoDaveCockleboy 2 years ago
Obviously thousands of previous events effect a current event like the 'knocking a glass over' scenario you mentioned, but I think you were just simplifying it when you said about perhaps it was a 'bad 12th birthday'?
DiscoDaveCockleboy 2 years ago
I agree with you on almost everything. I have thought about this subject a lot as well and I came up with the exact same coin analogy as you. I believe in determinism but I think that you misunderstand the implications of it. Like you said, you flip a coin and it has to land on heads or tails. There is a 100% chance of one or the other. Likewise, everyone's future will unfold in one certain way. It has to. This however doesn't mean we don't have free will.
ElVeintitres2323 2 years ago
You imply that the universe will go the way it will go and we have no choice in the matter. You imply that we can't make decisions for ourselves becuase everything that happens had to happen. I disagree, decisions we make have EVERYTHING to do with the way the future will unfold. We are not trapped in an inevitable outcome but rather we are making our own outcome with the choices we make. So yeah I agree with you that the future must happen one way, but not that that way is set in stone.
ElVeintitres2323 2 years ago
Determinism Is kind of depressing I suppose, but thats only because humans like to feel as though they are in control of their own lives, and the realization that we don't even have free-will is kind of scary.
Just live your life as you would normally, because really do you think knowing free-will is an illusion really going to affect your plans on Friday night?
EricTheNihilist 2 years ago
Just suppose that your life are already decide and planned without you knowing it. Even your death and the way of death would have been already decided. How would you react to it ? AndWhat meaning would life have for you ?
crakri 2 years ago
ok gravity exists, so it would be best to lay down on the floor since standing up needs so much energy (fighting gravity) but we don´t lay down for obvious reasons.
now i think determinism exists too, so we could give a shit about everything, since you can´t control it anyways. but we don´t for obvious reasons... people confuse determinism with some kind of religion or lifestyle ..well it´s not ..it´s just a way to describe how matter interacts, like gravity...well at least i think so :)
efaelka 2 years ago
This is excellent. It looks as though you put time into thinking about the problem of free will. My only critique has do deal with the analogy you use of "starting at point A and going to point B". Causal chains don't have a start and they don't come to an end. Otherwise, I enjoyed the video.
demandevidence 2 years ago
Are you familiar with Terrence McKenna's theroy "TimeWave: Zero Point", you make similair and relative points that may have some truths.
DoDasDew 2 years ago
um no, wat destroys this theory would have to be humans, seeing as we do unpredictable things all the time. wen u bring in emotion and thought, this is not possible. people cannot be calculated, even with their experiences, people make mistakes and only think for the moment that their actions are justified. you cannot calculate even with all past experiences known, which ones ppl will learn the most from and how they will use them wen later justifying something.
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Sure, it's beyond our comprehension and it can't really be calculated, but our minds are nothing but chemicals, nerves, and tissue. We're machines, essentially. There is no such thing as a random decision. Let's say you buy a chocolate ice cream cone. You do this because you had one a few days ago and it was really damn good. An event like this isn't random at all, nor are any other decisions you may make. Just because it's beyond our comprehension doesn't mean it's true.
Grintoth 2 years ago
For example, there are suns that are millions, billions, maybe even trillions the size of Earth. We know this for a fact, yet could we ever wrap our heads about it? Absolutely not. Something of that magnitude is just far beyond our puny little minds. How did the universe come into existence? Could we ever figure that out, let alone comprehend it? Probably not. So we take the easy way out, and claim that some greater being is in control of everything. Meh, I beg to differ.
Grintoth 2 years ago
fine we r predictable, doesnt mean we have no will
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Don't get me wrong, we definitely have willpower. But is it really within our control? Well, sort of. We want to do something, so we do it. But where did that decision itself come from? Who knows. Like I said, I wouldn't try to live by this concept. I think it would drive anyone insane. As much as I believe in it, I could never apply it to my life. I'll always feel like I'm the one in control, and that's the way it should be.
Grintoth 2 years ago
well the entire concept is dependent on a person's past experiences, but wat would rule the first choice any1 ever made ever? or the first thing that ever happened?
debating with you is fun, thnx for such an interesting conversation =D
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
No problem! I love discussions like this, as rare as they are.
Hmm... the first decision. Well, a person's temper, personality, moodiness, etc. are slightly shaped by the genes of their parents. I guess their first decision would be dependent on their experience in the womb. I think instinct would kick in. The first action people do is usually cry. For one reason or another, I came into this world with a straight face. Like you said, this sort of thing can't really be calculated.
Grintoth 2 years ago
but that wouldnt work cause it isnt like you can remember those experiences hence its not like they could affect your future choices. in the end it rlly is completely dependent on the person
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
No, you're not remembering your parent's experiences, you're just acting out of animal instinct and genetics.
Grintoth 2 years ago
not what i meant, i meant that your experiences in the womb wouldnt affect you later in life since you wouldnt remember any of it
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Ah, true, but imagine this: the experiences in the womb would affect your first action, which would affect your second, and so on. This chain of events would lead to the decisions you make today.
Grintoth 2 years ago
not if you forgot that the first action happened before you made the second, however i'm not an expert on baby memory length XD
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Hmm, in that case, I guess instinct would just kick in again. Can't say I'm familiar with the memory of babies either.
Grintoth 2 years ago
well then instinct throws the theory out the window, since ppl's instincts often cause ppl to react completely differently then others even in the same situation. so the first move is unpredictable, and based on that everything else is drawn (in a very vague sense) hence your destiny is formed at the very first time you do anything?
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Well, you could look at it that way if you want to. I think instinctual reactions could be calculated just like any other reaction, as sporadic and random as they may seem.
Grintoth 2 years ago
well if you go back to the idea of the coin flipping, the only reason that chance exists is because we don't know everything (of course impossible) and because this is impossible for us, there will always be chance in this world. obviously because we dont know everything, we cant predict much and so we dont know how things will happen and cant control some things (like the way the coin lands) hence in our minds it is a matter of chance. if we knew everything chance itself would be abolished.
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Yes, my point exactly :) We can't predict every little event, but, in theory, there is only one possible outcome. We don't know what it is, but it's there.
Grintoth 2 years ago
well i guess this means we've come to an agreement.
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
Awesome! That's my kind of argument; one where neither side is too narrow-minded to understand any of their opponents views. Thanks for that fun little debate- it was great while it lasted!
Grintoth 2 years ago
yeah thank you, perhaps it'll happen again sometime
TheSayNoToDrugsGuy 2 years ago
I dont get it like i rode in the box of a truck and i never done that before... or drink, chew and all that shit. or i could use not such a great one like suicide
yams801 2 years ago
I agree. Though I am unsure if the universe is completely deterministic (in the philosophical sense of the word), as randomness has at least some possibility. I think randomness is, however, very unlikely (there are logical problems of events coming from nothing, and there is no evidence for this...even in QM). (MORE)
trick0171 2 years ago
Regardless if the universe is deterministic or inderterministic, I do not believe in free will, as the idea is logically incompatable with both a deterministic and an indeterministic universe.
trick0171 2 years ago
Well my believes are largely shaped by science. Now science doesn't have an answer that proves there is free will. On the flip side there's plenty of evidence that suggest your actions and personality are shaped by your environment.
By the same token I don't believe in determinism. I studied physics for 4 yrs in college and from experimentation I can personally tell you that both speed and position of every particle is undeterminable. That the laws of quantum mechanics regulate every cont.
Sparkygravity 2 years ago
interaction as one of probability.
Now what you were talking about early in the video the probability of different outcomes would be called the quantum mechanical propagation of the multiuniverse. String theory supports this reality... big problem with it, is it's untestable by experimentation, so *shrug* who knows.
I happen to believe in free will because I think it's important to believe in your ability to change bad habits.... I don't have any proof that their is free will
Sparkygravity 2 years ago
actually I have more evidence to prove the contrary. But humans don't really exist fully within reality as it is, since what we know of reality is gain solely through perception. This kind of logic leads to much tangled philosophical discussions on what is reality and does it really exist. Which I think is a bunch a baloni.
Not because such questions don't have merit... but rather that they just cause distraction away from the whole point of philosophy...
Sparkygravity 2 years ago
How can my believes, perceptions, and ideas help achieve my goals and passions in life. The purpose of having ideas is not to enslave ourselves to them, but to use them to make our lives better. idk, what to say from this point because ideas are still necessary when someone chooses to be rational and responsible. Which I feel makes humanity better..... long discussion that leads to no definite conclusions, I'm not a big fan of the determinism discussion.
Sparkygravity 2 years ago
Yes. [end discussion]
Grintoth 2 years ago
--> thus turning the thing we've 'read' into 'not-the-future'. I like to think that 'You can predict the past but you can't change it, and you can change the future but you can't predict it''. For example, if I studied a person's personality for years, I could predict all of his actions in every given condition, but there would always be an ever so slight chance that he will do something else than what I expect, not due to randomness however, but due to factors unknown to me.
d3ady1337 2 years ago
I haven't mapped out a complete theory for this yet, but I currently believe that the heisenberg uncertainty principle within determinism can be explained by the idea that we can't know both the position and velocity of sub-atomic particles (and perhaps other factors at sub-atomic levels) because that would ultimately result in us knowing the future, which would result in a paradox, because the future can not be 100% accurately predicted because that would enable us to change it -->
d3ady1337 2 years ago
I agree, you can calculate the coin flip
but...
only until the coin has reached the highest point of it's trajectory
because nobody can calculate reaktions of the guy who has flipped the coin.
for instance, if the guy suddenly pull away his hand and the coin fall to the ground.
I think nobody can ever be 100% sure.
Mihawkler 2 years ago
Like I said, it's possible, yet beyond our comprehension.
Grintoth 2 years ago
:D :D :D
amazing...as always....;)
francnico 2 years ago
Is it possible for a subset of the universe to know all there is to know about the universe?
quantumbits 2 years ago
This kind of sounds like the Law of Attraction. Are you familiar with that law? If you, are can you make a video about it?
Boarder120 2 years ago
even if we predicted the future, we would have been planned to predict the future.
Also about that alternate universe based on choices thing, we just talked about that in English and while I doubt it's true, it's a really amazing concept
thelegendofwiked 2 years ago