Zeitgeist and the Mystery Religions

[wildwilco]

yes he is. Unfortunally he does know he is  but thats the power of these idiots.

[nhprman]

Also, I have to say something about Mithras. His appearance came in the first century BC. First mention was 67 BC in Plutarch's Lives (Pompey.) Mithras became popular in the FIRST Century AD, while Christianity was still a seedling, and persecuted. Mithraism was popular in the 2nd to 4th Centuries, as you say. But far more popular than Christianity, which wasn't legally accepted until the 320s under Constantine. Not sure what your point was about dates, then.

[nhprman]

The fact that similar religious elements such as death/rebirth motifs existed LONG before Christianity's appearance is a reality. Interpretation is another thing, but to deny that as your first line of argument is a bad misstep right out of the gate. And the "union of human women with god-men"? Isn't that what Mary did with Jesus? Also, Osiris, Attis and others certainly others WERE said to die and be reborn again. This was WAY BEFORE the Christian era, and contemporary with it.

[TexanChris]

This guy is an idiot. Poor logical arguments and he omits way too many facts that prove the opposite. And FYI, the Mythras oral tradition dates from around of the time the oral tradition of the Bible, so reguardless of the fact hat it was written down later it was still contemporary. You can't pick and choose what parts of an argument count or not just because it contradicts you.

[JuniusFaction]

Really? I never heard of such a thing. All I've encountered on Mithraism comes from Porphyry, and a bit from Tertullian. Do you have a source on the Mithras oral tradition?

Plutarch says the Mithraic cult came into being in the 1st century B.C.. It's only before the NT, but that's all that really matters.

[JuniusFaction]

Plutarch speaking of how the wise reach a state of oneness and undefilement, transforming into the one fire from which the diakosmesis of the universe (creations) sprang.

"They refer to this experience and transformation to "rending" (rending of the fire into the many) or "dismemberment" and name him Dionysus, Zagreus, Nyctelius, Isodaites, and they construct ALLEGORIES and myths proper to the stories of death and destruction followed by life and rebirth (reunification with the fire)."

[JuniusFaction]

This really isn't true. The oldest of the mystery religions is the Eleusinian mystery religion, dating to the 7th century B.C., so not all of it is post-Christian. Secondly, even before Christianity many cults like the Orphic cult were not concerned with seasonal rebirth, but simply a spiritual one.

Besides, many mystery religions considered their myths allegories for mystical/philosophical teachings. Rebirths had many meanings, sometimes more than one at once.

[filoIII]

mystery religions like the catholic cult of the dead woman

[WhyCantYouSeeReality]

Hey Randy,,Maybe you should give some actual facts 3 mins of BS....Do your own research and think for yourself make up your own mind...

[back2thefutre]

It's not something you have to try and rationalize out of

[back2thefutre]

I really think that Christianity is a mystery religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[back2thefutre]

Im mormon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[52blades]

The accusations of Christianity stemming from pagan religions have mainly been propagated by the film "Zeitgeist". There are multiple organizations and websites offering up to 1000$ to anyone who can support the claim that Christianity is rooted in pagan religions by providing primary sources which show similarities between the two. Christianity is vastly different from any other religion. Christians don't get baptism from the Mithras tradition of bathing members in bull blood and guts.

[BoyintheMachine]

The money offer means nothing. Creationist Kent Hovind has offered $250,000 to anyone who can prove Evolution, but the fine print reveals that he isn't talking about evolution as taught in Science, but rather his warped rendition of it. Hence, the stipulation of primary sources is somewhat hilarious since where are primary sources for the historicity of Jesus?

Christianity is not vastly different from other religions. You are pleading for special treatment for your favorite religion.

[52blades]

Actually I have a friend named Chris White who is offering 100$ of his money. All he is asking for is a primary source (Zeitgiestchallenge(dot)com) Christianity is extremely different than anything else before it. Religions have taken parts of it but it has always been exclusive. We have about 40 documents apart from the Bible that record Jesus and the early church. To claim the most famous, influential man in history was a myth and that his followers died for a non-existent man is unevidenced.

[BoyintheMachine]

See the problem is that you simply made a proclamation, 'Christianity is completely different from any other religion." Such a proclamation is based on personal opinion and not fact.

For example, for uniqueness Buddhism beats Christianity anyday. The belief in a reigion w/ no creator god is far more unique than Christianity.

Even the greek myths are far more interesting and entertaining than the old testament.

Unfortunatley there is a small detail about Christianity that you forgot.

[BoyintheMachine]

(Continued) That detail being 'EVIDENCE'.

Christianity depends on FAITH just like every other religion.

Faith is defined as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence.

Any belief that depends on faith is equal to every other belief that depends on faith.

Hence:

The belief in the Tooth Fairy = the belief in the biblical God, the belief in the Easter Bunny = the belief in the biblical God, the belief in fairies = the belief in the biblical God, etc...

[BoyintheMachine]

(Continued) Until the Biblical God is actually proved to exist, then Christianity is just like every other religion.

One of my favore quotes, paraphrased from Joseph Campbell, "The Old Testament Is The Most Dreadfully Boring Of Mythologies."

[52blades]

Christianity is not like every other religion on the basis that it can be investigated in many of it's claims, particularly the resurrection. Its improbable, examinable prophecies and philosophical assertions. It is comprised of 66 different books by nearly 40 different authors written over a period of 1500 years in several nations. The Bible doesn't define "faith" the way you have. Hebrews 1:11 defines it as belief in things not seen based in evidence. Paul writes in 1Thes. "Prove all things".

[BoyintheMachine]

i know all about the Bible, was raised a Southern Baptist. All religions depend on Faith. Faith can not be backed up by evidence. It can only be believed, i.e. put your trust in the lord. Despite what that passage might say, religion cannot be proved. You can believe in Jesus, but there is no proof for his miracles, resurrection,etc... Your belief is founded in faith, not evidence.

[jaalul]

BOY,

you must realy be a machine, and someone took out the IQ fuse from your fuse box...

you talk nonesense,,,and i am not a christian believer.... but your the lazies atheist ive ever seen....

do some reseach.....stop comparing a topic like CREATION....

with the TOOTHFAIRY....

so childesh...

[BoyintheMachine]

It's all childish. if you are a creationist you believe in magic and mysticism. You might as well believe in the tooth fairy because both God, The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, Witches, Fairies, Unicorns and the like, exist in the imagination, not in reality. Hop on a rocket and fly into outer space and you will never find God. -But the thing is that's what the ancients believed. They believed God was the big daddy in the sky.

[jaalul]

BoyintheMachine :

you contradicted yourself like three times ...

and explain to me how you can believe in many God's....rather then one God...

[BoyintheMachine]

If you think I contradicted mysefl "threee times" then please provide the examples.

Who said I believed in multiple gods?

[jaalul]

BoyintheMachine :

i am not sitting here trying to prove God... i think it is completely subjective. when it is collective then there is a lot of political B.S behind it.

all im saying is that there is an incredeble amount of evidence that has been found in the last 100 years by SCEPTICS and BELIEVERS....

if you cannot think beyond what youve been taut or told as a child or as a grown up....

then it is not for you to understand things of this magnatud...

learn how to debate.

[BoyintheMachine]

This is not a debate. This is a individual (you) who have made claims (such as that I contradicted myself three times), for which you do not provide any deatils proving such. My advice: Bug off.

There is no evidence for God. That's why believers are supposed to have Faith.

Seriously, please quite replying to my comments.

[rs1372]

since when did youtube comments officially become a forum for debate? what the f--k people.

Debates are about proving you are right, discussions are supposed to be about finding truth.

[theunraveler]

i cant believe people would buy this guy's argument...wat he is saying is that yes there are themes of resurrection, virgin births but christianity took these motifs and spin it a different way and voila suddenly there is no connection...

another thing to note is the lack of references, i would most like to know which secular scholar would dismiss the connection between pagan faiths and christianity

majority of the scholars i know in this field agree there is a connection

[BoyintheMachine]

It's interesting that nobody seems to touch on the obvious here. I mean, let's face it. The reason why the Mystery religions were so attractive was due to people losing faith in the standard Roman Pantheon. The cults of Cybele, Isis, Mithras, and for some Christianity was attractive simply because it was novel. It's not just coinicidence that the day of celebration of Jesus' birthday lands on the birthday of Mithras....

[BoyintheMachine]

(continued) It's not just coincidence that the Virgin Mary is honored in the same symbolic ways as that of Isis. Remember, Mithraism and the cult of Isis were the two competitors to Christianity. What I'm getting at is that Constatine, by making Christianity the 'official' religion of the Roman empire, perverted the Religion. From that time onward Christinaity was merged with Pagansim. So what we have here is Christianity immitating Pagan gods/religions in order to convert the Pagan masses...

[BoyintheMachine]

(continued) But the problem is the message got lost overtime. Overtime, people seemed to forgot that Jesus was deliberately made to mimick Mithras, by portraying him as a solar deity and by placing his 'birthday' on Mithras' birthday. Same with Virgin Mary and Isis. It reminds me of the 1st Indiana Jones movie, where Indie swaps out the gold monkey idol for a bag of sand. That's what was done. Instead of praying to Isis or Mithras, pray to Mary or Jesus. Their both just statues/idols anyway.

[BoyintheMachine]

(Continued) So the problem we have today is that Modern Christianity is in no way similar to the Christians of the New Testament. And the 'crime' here is that the false assumption is being taught that those early Christians were 'just like us'. -THEY WEREN'T!!! Remember, the Roman people conquered and 'Romanized', i.e.'altered' the religions of the people they conquered. The Romans 'Romanized' Christianity just like every other religion.

[lessermystery]

mystery religions, as you know, predate the roman pantheon, so the roman pantheon might have seemed more novel in comparison. i really do need to look up mithras though. i agree with everything else you said about christianity put in place to substitute other religions, and that it is not taught the way it's founders would have had it taught.

[BoyintheMachine]

Here we are talking about the Mystery Cults of the Roman empire, which were foriegn cults brought back from the conquered lands. The most popular include, Isis, Cybele, Mithras, & Christianity. The thing that bound all Mystery Cults was secrecy and the hope of eternal life. It's almost as if Christianity was adopted as a template to merge all these mysery cults into one big religion worthy of the title 'Universal', hint-hint.

[52blades]

We know due to historical documents what early Christianity was like. When Christianity became the majority Constantine enforced a law making other religions illegal. (Forcing people to Christ is not Christian teaching in the first place.) Other Roman religions mixed their traditions with the outline of Christianity and we ended up with things like Christmas, the early Roman Catholic Church, worship of Mary and other less than biblical ideas. The Bible doesn't give Jesus' birth date.

[BoyintheMachine]

As far as we know, the mixing of the Pagan symbolism and rituals w/ Christianity occured w/ Constantine. It could have occured earlier, but from his time onward is where we really know that this was occuring. After all, it was Constantine who set the sabbath as Sunday and Jesus' birthday as Dec. 25th. Both have connections to Mithraism and to Constantine's 'former' Pagan beliefs.

[NC360]

Some people with the knowledge of the past, are not using it in an attempt to eliminate Christianity, but rather in an attempt to teach it.

[lessermystery]

i heard something about a new song, once the old ways of civilization has ended. god will teach us a new song.

i think the bible is a song of sorts that emerged from the deep unconscious fears and longings that lived (and still lives) in the hearts of the men who wrote it. prophecy is coming true, because all of us, over the course of western civilization in the last 2000 years, have learned, lived, and sung that song - it's no miracle - it's self fulfilling prophecy. ->

[lessermystery]

and since the prophecy is so dire, it certainly appears to be the workings of satan. maybe it is, or maybe it's the workings of the collective fears and greed of man kind over the last millenia. (excuse bad spelling)

[janclan66]

So what are your thoughts on gnosticism?

[Leiflton]

yeah gnosticism is satanic...there's a good film you need to watch called "Hollywood's War on God."

[Leiflton]

Yeah, they are counterfeit religions by satan to draw people from the truth of scripture.

These concepts were made popular by Zeitgeist, which in many instances just lies.

[lessermystery]

well, if that's true, which it isn't, but if it is, the mystery religions aren't leading people away from the church at all. as for the zeitgeist vid, i agree, the research was sloppy and haphazard - disappointing. but the rest of it was quite jaunty.

[Leiflton]

no, it is true. the mystery religions are satanic. i know it is true because I was deceived by the lie.

[lessermystery]

were you deceived by a mystery religion? which one? i think they're no different than any other religion. religion has been used for good and evil... christianity, judaism, islam, buddism, all of them. satan is a force that permeates human kind in general. just my humble opinion.

[Leiflton]

that pretty much sums it up right there...my worldview went through many transformations...first I was a Deist, I believed in God but he was kind of off somewhere, impersonal...I think most people actually function as Deists...then I came to the conclusion that all religions were just alternate paths to the same mountain peak, which resembled salvation or spiritual enlightenment...then I saw Megiddo: The March to Armageddon and started reading the Bible, and it opened my eyes...

[thriceplowedfield]

you haven't presented any facts, and you haven't supported any of your contentions with documentation.

there are SO MANY similarities between christianity and the greek/egyptian mystery religions it isn't even funny.

jesus was to be the substitute for revelation - which is what the mystery religions provided to all its participants.

i'd throw down with you any day of the week over this, but i would definitely back up all my propositions with documentation.

[takplayer1]

i just wish that these people out there who always bring this stuff up about these other so called gods would do their research before claiming that christianity is a "copycat" religion. ive been researching this for a while now and understand it all a little better. i hope others do the same. good video man. GOD Bless

[bil1yjoe]

Anyone can treat any story as fact or myth depending on their spin on truth. I put my faith in Jesus Christ. Not in men's explanations.

[TheEdge012]

As usual...with a bit of digging, another atheist objection/roadblock is reconciled. Thanks again Randall!

[firstcor1313]

Very true, I haven't really considered the implication of an "Always Myth" versus laced in Historical Context.