People why all the disagreements...no wonder why peb Hmoob tsis muaj country. Just because one doesn't believe in one's finding doesn't mean one has to disrespect the other. We need to grow up and perhaps find out what is really being the cloth? I'm not a scholar nor do I HAVE TIME for some research but I do appreciate all of U guys for the stories behind it. In my opinion, the more ideas Hmong gathered, the more we can amount to something. The real story lies w/in our ancestors.
Surely you must know there is, has been, only 'paj ntaub', embroidery=flower cloth in Hmong SE Asia pre-1975. Western Hmong story cloth is post 1975. Thought that was clear. No Hmong story cloth existed since. And Miao ones are irrelevant, off topic. For someone who claims insight your research and rationale is questionable but believe what you want. It's misleading and unethical academically.
I hope you read my info. No where did I state about story cloth. I stated that history is recorded by cloths. I hope that if you wish to insult me, go ahead. Clearly, story cloth is also found among the Central Miao as well. I guess you haven't do your research.
@niamtxiv Backpedaling and grasping at straws does next to nothing to salvage the 'faux pas' over the claim of 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' being rooted and laced in the story cloth or embroidery. Seriously, I am more intuned to Hmong arts, culture, history (oral etc.) and tradition then you think. It is why I question to verify and confirm these new-found supposition. Ethical factfinding not whimsical conjectures ok? Thanks.
If you knew how to read, you would understand that story cloth is different from flower cloth to other forms of cloth. Our people have always been recording history on cloths from symbols, patterns, to zig zag and etc.... I guess you haven't done enough research.
@niamtxiv Yes, I'm always researching because I cannot take anything for granted. There exist too many hearsay and theories already. Someone needs to sift through them. Why not if one wants sound info and knowledge versus ill-information or baseless assumption, tales, and rhetoric. Is that not the principal ethic of a scholar or Hmong enthusiast? My belief ofcourse.
You have to know the differences between cultural artifacts, theories, fieldwork which often include cultural history and traditions.... the list goes on. You have to take consideration in clothes, languages, traditions, oral history and written history, propose theories and hypothesis... I will not go further with you. You are welcome to do your own research. Like it or not, I've done enough and my research are due to connecting traditions, work from scholars and history.
@niamtxiv Was it not you who cited Graham's book? Don't contradict yourself. Trust me I have a library not just 1 book. And I'm always adding to it. It's why I questioned and inquired about the claim of 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' as none of my sources makes no mention of it period nor is it in any folklore I've heard.
@niamtxiv Yeah, you may argue the literature is in or hidden within the various cloths. That's the typical argument I've heard many times over. However no records, written or oral, has ever mentioned that claim in my research. It's true origin is speculative at best. Again, a post 1975 theory after Hmong literature was already cemented and Hmong intellects slowly came to realisation in the power of writing - language scripts. If you have resources that's otherwise I'd love to know/have them.
Whatever. You still need more resources, books and articles to learn and read than just reading one book. I've done enough. I am no longer doing any research. If you're interested, keep searching and you will eventually find it.
@niamtxiv Rereading Graham's book and immediately on page 4, last line 5th paragraph, it states, 'It should be emphasized ... Ch'uan Miao have no written language or literature.' That's a direct quote. There goes the assumption that the phrase 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' originates or can be traced to this book. If, big IF, on completion if anywhere it says otherwise I'll report back. One cannot 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' if no literature exist.
@niamtxiv, though I am not done with Graham's book I am confident there is or will be no such phrase 'kawn ntaub kawm ntawv' in it. No such phrase exist in any other book I've thoroughly reviewed. Likewise, books finished to date suggests a different perspective than the phrase mentioned. One source directly from a Chuan Mioa song somewhat relevant to SE Asia Hmong folklore. If you know the lore that is. No phrase though.
@niamtxiv, ironic you would cite Graham's missionary publication. Yes I have the book though I have yet to complete it. So far I have not read any phrases, songs, or stories in the book pertaining to 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv'. You sure that's where the phrase originated? I believe otherwise in being post 1970s Western Hmong influenced and originated based on info acquired.
@niamtxiv, sometimes I just have to accept that folks will believe whatever. 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' again is post 1970s having little to nothing to do with story cloth or Hmong/Miao embroidery in all I've researched to date. If otherwise please provide me with the resources to further my knowledge. Again, yes I know where you got it from. Not reliable however.
I wish I can, but I lost the link long ago. Literally, it means "learn the cloth, learn the scripts." It was from the book, "songs and stories of the chuan miao" by david beckett graham. Search it up and buy it. You'll like it.
@niamtxiv, trust me I know the Miao do story cloths. But it's stretching it a bit trying to correlate them to SE Asia and Western Hmong story cloths. I'd say it's night and day or apples and oranges. Take your pick. No point debating or saying their variants.
As for the 'famous phrase', of all elders I have ever spoken to or with about Hmong/Miao history never heard it once till now. Weird? I even asked a Miao scholar from China to which he had no answer cept to say different patterns and themes are the norm. Nothing near the 'phrase' you allude to. And yes I know where you got it from.
kawm ntaub kawm ntawv is a simple common phrase in the hmong culture. It means "go to school," but it literally means "learn the cloth, learn the scripts."
niamtxiv, though your aim or goals are noble to educate and draw awareness to Hmong/Miao history etc., knowing full well some claims are ill-conceived leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know and have seen the cloth in your video and assure you it was not made or is typical of Hmong/Miao cloths 1000s let alone 100 years ago. Fact is these war based cloths are Ban Vinai refugee camp originated in the late 1970s to 80s.
Yes, we were those who parents and ancestors fled south. When the Hmong entered southeast Asia, they were welcome with hostility by the Dai people, the natives of SEA and the Vietnamese. The stitch work takes hours and weeks. Some Miao groups, especially those from Guizhou also do pictorial cloths.
Yog li koj hais los mas. I was sad making this video. Cas es, peb Hmoob yuav tsis nco qab lub neej thaum... I'm sad listening to this song as well. =)
lovely. thanks for posting this.
storyclothfilms 5 months ago
@MrHmongguitarplayer
maybe you if are able to provide some videos, then I'll have a conversation with you.
niamtxiv 9 months ago
People why all the disagreements...no wonder why peb Hmoob tsis muaj country. Just because one doesn't believe in one's finding doesn't mean one has to disrespect the other. We need to grow up and perhaps find out what is really being the cloth? I'm not a scholar nor do I HAVE TIME for some research but I do appreciate all of U guys for the stories behind it. In my opinion, the more ideas Hmong gathered, the more we can amount to something. The real story lies w/in our ancestors.
stetienne85 9 months ago
the day the hmong ppl find out there past history from WAYYYYYYYYy bak.. will b the day..
lopallis 1 year ago
Surely you must know there is, has been, only 'paj ntaub', embroidery=flower cloth in Hmong SE Asia pre-1975. Western Hmong story cloth is post 1975. Thought that was clear. No Hmong story cloth existed since. And Miao ones are irrelevant, off topic. For someone who claims insight your research and rationale is questionable but believe what you want. It's misleading and unethical academically.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
I hope you read my info. No where did I state about story cloth. I stated that history is recorded by cloths. I hope that if you wish to insult me, go ahead. Clearly, story cloth is also found among the Central Miao as well. I guess you haven't do your research.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv Backpedaling and grasping at straws does next to nothing to salvage the 'faux pas' over the claim of 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' being rooted and laced in the story cloth or embroidery. Seriously, I am more intuned to Hmong arts, culture, history (oral etc.) and tradition then you think. It is why I question to verify and confirm these new-found supposition. Ethical factfinding not whimsical conjectures ok? Thanks.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
If you knew how to read, you would understand that story cloth is different from flower cloth to other forms of cloth. Our people have always been recording history on cloths from symbols, patterns, to zig zag and etc.... I guess you haven't done enough research.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv Yes, I'm always researching because I cannot take anything for granted. There exist too many hearsay and theories already. Someone needs to sift through them. Why not if one wants sound info and knowledge versus ill-information or baseless assumption, tales, and rhetoric. Is that not the principal ethic of a scholar or Hmong enthusiast? My belief ofcourse.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
You have to know the differences between cultural artifacts, theories, fieldwork which often include cultural history and traditions.... the list goes on. You have to take consideration in clothes, languages, traditions, oral history and written history, propose theories and hypothesis... I will not go further with you. You are welcome to do your own research. Like it or not, I've done enough and my research are due to connecting traditions, work from scholars and history.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv Was it not you who cited Graham's book? Don't contradict yourself. Trust me I have a library not just 1 book. And I'm always adding to it. It's why I questioned and inquired about the claim of 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' as none of my sources makes no mention of it period nor is it in any folklore I've heard.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@niamtxiv Yeah, you may argue the literature is in or hidden within the various cloths. That's the typical argument I've heard many times over. However no records, written or oral, has ever mentioned that claim in my research. It's true origin is speculative at best. Again, a post 1975 theory after Hmong literature was already cemented and Hmong intellects slowly came to realisation in the power of writing - language scripts. If you have resources that's otherwise I'd love to know/have them.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
Whatever. You still need more resources, books and articles to learn and read than just reading one book. I've done enough. I am no longer doing any research. If you're interested, keep searching and you will eventually find it.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv Rereading Graham's book and immediately on page 4, last line 5th paragraph, it states, 'It should be emphasized ... Ch'uan Miao have no written language or literature.' That's a direct quote. There goes the assumption that the phrase 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' originates or can be traced to this book. If, big IF, on completion if anywhere it says otherwise I'll report back. One cannot 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' if no literature exist.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@niamtxiv, though I am not done with Graham's book I am confident there is or will be no such phrase 'kawn ntaub kawm ntawv' in it. No such phrase exist in any other book I've thoroughly reviewed. Likewise, books finished to date suggests a different perspective than the phrase mentioned. One source directly from a Chuan Mioa song somewhat relevant to SE Asia Hmong folklore. If you know the lore that is. No phrase though.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@niamtxiv, ironic you would cite Graham's missionary publication. Yes I have the book though I have yet to complete it. So far I have not read any phrases, songs, or stories in the book pertaining to 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv'. You sure that's where the phrase originated? I believe otherwise in being post 1970s Western Hmong influenced and originated based on info acquired.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
maybe you should keep reading... =)
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv, sometimes I just have to accept that folks will believe whatever. 'kawm ntaub kawm ntawv' again is post 1970s having little to nothing to do with story cloth or Hmong/Miao embroidery in all I've researched to date. If otherwise please provide me with the resources to further my knowledge. Again, yes I know where you got it from. Not reliable however.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
I wish I can, but I lost the link long ago. Literally, it means "learn the cloth, learn the scripts." It was from the book, "songs and stories of the chuan miao" by david beckett graham. Search it up and buy it. You'll like it.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@niamtxiv, trust me I know the Miao do story cloths. But it's stretching it a bit trying to correlate them to SE Asia and Western Hmong story cloths. I'd say it's night and day or apples and oranges. Take your pick. No point debating or saying their variants.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
As for the 'famous phrase', of all elders I have ever spoken to or with about Hmong/Miao history never heard it once till now. Weird? I even asked a Miao scholar from China to which he had no answer cept to say different patterns and themes are the norm. Nothing near the 'phrase' you allude to. And yes I know where you got it from.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
kawm ntaub kawm ntawv is a simple common phrase in the hmong culture. It means "go to school," but it literally means "learn the cloth, learn the scripts."
niamtxiv 1 year ago
niamtxiv, though your aim or goals are noble to educate and draw awareness to Hmong/Miao history etc., knowing full well some claims are ill-conceived leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know and have seen the cloth in your video and assure you it was not made or is typical of Hmong/Miao cloths 1000s let alone 100 years ago. Fact is these war based cloths are Ban Vinai refugee camp originated in the late 1970s to 80s.
aliasdoe007 1 year ago
@aliasdoe007
Trust me, the Miao in China also do story cloth. =)
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@ChinaGirl903
Yes, we were those who parents and ancestors fled south. When the Hmong entered southeast Asia, they were welcome with hostility by the Dai people, the natives of SEA and the Vietnamese. The stitch work takes hours and weeks. Some Miao groups, especially those from Guizhou also do pictorial cloths.
niamtxiv 1 year ago
@SweetHmongGal
Yog li koj hais los mas. I was sad making this video. Cas es, peb Hmoob yuav tsis nco qab lub neej thaum... I'm sad listening to this song as well. =)
niamtxiv 1 year ago
wow this basically tell the whole story of hmong in the ?1800s-1900s to now
hmoobxyoojgurl 1 year ago
a few years back, my mom got one of these Paj Ntaub, its one of the really big ones too. it's on a wall in our guest room
AtarashiNOhi 1 year ago
The song is so sad, thanx for the sharing this video!!! Hopefully one day all the Hmong will be united!!!
bwfan87 2 years ago
ขอบคุณครับ
Thanks so much.
smarthomebiz 2 years ago
Is a civil war between the Communist Party? Is a sad scene.
LeeHyunJo 2 years ago