My chiropractor doesn't use his hand to make adjustments because it's not precise enough, he has a very specific tool he uses instead. Does anyone know what Sandy's chiropractor used?
First of all well said myblinddogs. That is exactly what can happen. Secondly to all those who have written these terrible comments you should be ashamed of yourselves. Is it you sitting in this bed unable to live life? I would suggest that you think twice about it. Whether or not you believe is not the point. The point is this lady has been through something terrible and you who have made these comments are sick in the head and need your own help.
strokes are just as likely to happen in a medical office as in a chiropractic office. Also, you are even more likely to have a stroke while getting your hair done in a salon. The fact that she had a stroke may or may not be related to the adjustment, but why do people go after the whole chiropractic profession for one doctor's mistake when medicine kills dozens of people a day (not just maiming but killing) and no one creates anti-medicine videos?
The blood supply that feeds your head travels through your neck. Neck manipulation can overstretch the vertebral or carotid arteries, causing dissection and stroke. This is a known risk and one that chiropractic patients should be told about.
The blood supply that feeds your head travels through your neck. Neck manipulation can overstretch the vertebral or carotid arteries, causing dissection and stroke. This is a known risk and one that chiropractic patients should be told about.
I feel a heartfelt sadness for her,I believe 100% it was due to the chiropractors manipulation . I used to see a chiropractor regularly in Edmonton,for my shoulder and si joint,always careful with my neck ,never forced it. I moved, after a few years of off road trucking I began to experiance neck problems, started doing physio , improved alot.Was making a trip to Edm. so thought since I was there I would pay a visit to my old chiro make sure I was in good shape for the up coming logging season
. his office was busy , in a hurry ,he put his hands around my neck ,expecting a gentle touch, he just cracked it twisting hard,. I didnt feel good,within a few days I was experiancing visual disturbances ,neck pain and headaches.Went to see my physio doc. He couldnt believe it , my skull was actually crooked ,missed most of logging season , am back to work for now , but am have a host of problems and pain I never had before.
I asked my chiro about this...she's the most honest person I know and a close friend. Most likely she had a pre-existing condition. She went on to say injuries are quite rare. And she said she only pays $4000 a year in malpractice ins. Compare that to MD's that pay quite a bit more. Chiros don't have that many claims against them. Anyway I'm in no way suggesting she's faking this.
I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend this lady but if that happend to me. I would be typing "kill me" over and over again. i would not want to live like that.
PART 5:so this never happens to anyone again. thanks for listening. before I leave one last stat (and this is in many peer reviewed journals, look it up if you dont believe me). The odds of getting a stroke from a cervical adjustment has been estimated at 1 in 1 million to 1 in 6 million!! To comprehend this further. The chance of someone dying from Tylenol is 1 in 20 thousand!
PART 4: does. I played hockey and football myself, and I can tell you a hit from behind in hockey with my neck turned produced much more force then an adjustment and would cause a stroke much more readily. I think the issue here is a) patients must seek a good chiropractic doctor (proper history, physical etc), not one who spends 2 minutes and crack crack your done. BUT as in any health profession there are good and bad( EVEN medical doctors!). And b) chiropractors much know the warning signs
PART3: professional for a second opinion. In addition we are taught that NOT EVERYTHING warrants an adjustment and that certain conditions or warning signs may implicate that an adjustment is, in fact, a contraindication to the patients well being. I have had neck adjustments done personally and if dont correctly has very little force. I contend that anyone who plays a physical sport(hockey, football etc) has most likely had way more force through their neck then what a chiropractic adjustment
@McGizz17 I would even say anyone who has had a 'pat on the back' has had more force to their neck than most cervical manipulations, but absolutely with physical sports.
PART 2:have learned in school I can tell you that neck manipulations are safe procedures IF DONE Correctly. The thing with chiropractic, and in my opinion what needs to be rectified, is that there are so many DIFFERENT forms of chiropractic. I am taught diversified chiropractic. We are taught to give thorough patient histories, reflex testing, motor testing, and proper orthopaedic tests BEFORE giving a diagnosis. We are also taught that if we are UNSURE of our diagnosis to contact other health
PART 1: Being a Chiropractic Student I just wanted to comment in general about Adjustments and the whole profession. I Will say that firstly, after long consideration about my future I chose chiropractic because of personal experiences and a true interest in helping people. So people dont think its because its the only school i got into I will let you know I wrote the LSAT and got into two Ontario universities for law school but chose chiropractic instead. In saying this, and in learning what I
In these video comments: sympathizers, idiots and chiro-champions who try to 'down' medicine. Give me a break. You know medicine is damn well ahead of where chiro truly wants to be. You know chiro has a whole bunch of kooky shit about it. Look, time will tell whether or not this shit actually works, so spend your energy in the lab trying to demonstrate its effectiveness. In the meantime I will clearly 100% ignore your comments. Ciao for now!!!!!
There is a direct connection between vertebral artery and the vertebrae. Consequently, vertebral artery dissection does happen. Ask a neurologist or neurology surgeon. I've been told that there is strong research that supports or warrants lower back manipulation, but not c-spine.
@chiropractic47 You my pathetic man, are probably chiropractic's own worst enemy. If anyone bothered to peruse your posts, they would be most impressed by your use of profane language. Other than that, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of science, neurology and research methodology. Are you unable to connect the dots as to why the public is so concerned about chiropractic? QUACKERY!
@ospreylookout It must feel real good feeling like an asshole? We have no idea what you are feeling but you seem to like it alot. Gosh, we admire you....NOT!
The fact that the law suit was thrown out was not a reflection of anything except that a class action suit was not appropriate. This should not be misconstrued as somehow letting the chiro profession off the hook for what remains a poorly supported modality with benefits that have not been shown to offset the risks. C-spine manips ADD risk in ways that are not known.
chiropractic is bogus. It does nothing . Any one who claims it cured their back or neck pain needs to know most neck and back pain will resole itself without one of these quacks popping their spines..stay well away from them
there are billions of video here people asking attention . your work is appreciated by all of us who know the importance of being kind to others , your bad experience with somebody has given you pain , but you are helping others with what you have learnt.
Sandy, there are people out here who wish there was more that could be done for you. I hope that you do not give up fighting. Even though there was a set-back, I hope your sad case can be used so that it can NEVER happen to another person again, at least in Canada.
@ospreylookout As for their case..as sad as it is...that is over as well. And so is their fight. There are many sad cases in life. As Al Pachino says in Heat " You can get killed walking your doggie" Trying to destroy a profession, sue the city/gov and all chiropractors as a whole was a bit over zealous. They should have stuck to a simple malpractice suit. They may have had a chance to win that. But i really doubt it.
Chiro is complete quackery. They cause pain and not help pain. They dont help acne allergies or asthma or blood pressure. One nut chiro said he cured aids. Chiro needs to be banned now.
@krzyweplecy2 : Again, how on earth could there ever be a "direct" link proven in humans? To do so would be to put someone knowingly in hearms way to study the probability of the occurance? If you are a chiro, I suggest that you push hard to get your curriculum to include research methodology and statistics, and then with that, take a look at how many "indirect" cases exist of CVA's occuring post manip. Quacks should be barred from c-spine manips altogether!!!
@ospreylookout before commenting on something you know nothing about, do some research. But before you even get into the peer reviewed literarture, find out what "direct and idirect" means. As for statistics you obviously dont understand how statistics in medicine and for adverse reactions is calculated. DO your homework.
@krzyweplecy2 You claim that I know nothing about this, yet you make the assertion without evidence, and this is exacty the point. Chiro makes claims without evidence. That I do research in science and publish in legitmate journals is enough for me to enter into this dialogue, so instead of trashing me, why don't you simply offer up the evidence that there is sufficient grounds for c-spine manips? Keep your trash talk for someone who won't make you look like a tool.
@ospreylookout In the mean time...quit beating a dead horse! this conversation is over. The courts have decided, and the peer reviewed meta analysis of the lit is out. There is NO Direct link between chiro adjustments and stroke. The relationship is Indirect at best. Does it happen, YES, There is no denying this. It is a risk. It could happen while visiting your chiro, your MD, your barber or hair stylist, you judo instructor.
@krzyweplecy2 Sorry pal, but the meta analysis is not conclusive. When was the last stats course you took? Ever bothered to sit in on a research methodology course or 10? Whacko!
@ospreylookout All beacause of YOUR preexisting condition...and there is no way to know unless you get an MRI before every adjustment. Which will never happen, and even a MD would not order a MRI for a headache and stiff neck.
@krzyweplecy2 If a pre-existing condition might exist, why on earth would someone wish that to be compounded by the trauma of a c-spine manip? If a person has a desiccating vertebral artery, what argument is there for them to take the chance at all? The evidence is weak at best that c-spine manip is effective for treating most conditions, so why take the chance? The benefits do not outweigh the risks; the consequence of stroke is devastating and only takes a single event to ruin a life.
@krzyweplecy2 : How might one prove causation in this type of case? The case was tossed as a class action suit, those grounds, not on the grounds of causation. Wake up pal. The woman is in this state, period. She went to a chiro who manip'd her neck, period. She had a stroke, period. There is a correlationship. Simply because there cannot be proven a smoking gun does not detract from some possibility that had she not had her necked manip'd, then this would not have happened.
@krzyweplecy2 : By the way, when you use the term "scientific debate", umm, isn't that the debate right there? Where is the science that supports chiro in the first place? Where are the RCT's? Why can chiros continue to make claims about infant colic or vaccinations, or most of the conditions they treat, but without evidence? That is the debate....Why won't chiro be honest?
@krzyweplecy2 Though Sandy's situation is very sad, your correct that, "Medical" research on this matter does not lead to chiropractic as a culpable suspect. Wether her preexisting risk of stroke and the cervical adjustment were conjoining factors remains a mystery. Too many to list medications and surgeries cause stroke, why do people take partake in them while chiropractic continues to help millions.
@chiropractic47 I am amazed that someone who writes with the grammer and inability to spell that you display were ever admitted to any college without remedial English courses. Get an education in research methodology and stats (and SCIENCE) before you go yapping way beyond your scope. Chiro is bogus and not worth the risk.
@chiropractic47 I am amazed that someone who writes with the grammer and inability to spell that you display were ever admitted to any college without remedial English courses. Get an education in research methodology and stats (and SCIENCE) before you go yapping way beyond your scope. Chiro is bogus and not worth the risk.
@krzyweplecy2 First off, it was thrown out, because a class action suit was not appropriate, and once the choice is made to go that route, you cannot back up. However, what is as important is the issue of risk versus benefit. Even with a small risk, the consequences (as we can see) of only one incident, are devastating. So, what is the benefit of c-spine manips? Where is the evidence that this is worth the risk? Chiro is QUACKERY!
This story is incredibly sad for the family and my heart goes out to them. That said the judge in the case has recently rejected the class action suit because it did not meet any of the 11 requirements for it to proceed in court. There is no more legal action against the Dr, or the Provence of Alberta.
What about all the patients medical dr. kill? 'Any risk is too risky'? With that logic you couldn't take an asprin, let alone have any standard medical treatment, or walk across the street...
I put chiropractors right next to witch doctors when it comes to choosing medical treatment. Even if the risk was one in 10 million for paralysis, why would anyone take the risk. Go see a "real" doctor, not a wannabe.
you read through some of these comments and it's obvious some of these same people are absolutely clueless about the current research regarding chiropractic manipulation and stroke. i encourage people to read the facts from published research. i also will remind people that physical therapists and osteopathic physicians also manipulate the neck.
The risk of stroke from neck manipulations is one in one million, five million, ten million, depending on who you ask. But remember, that "one" could come up at any time! "Any" risk is too risky, in my opinion. I recently saw a chiropractor and discussed the matter with him. He offered an alternative tratment, called "mobilisation". I found it helped. He very slowly and gently moved my neck in the directions it should naturally move, and no further.
I had to go to a chiropractor for about a year as part of an injury lawsuit. At the end (he was mainly working on my back) he manipulated my neck, which I had asked him not to do. It made me much worse, and I said I didn`t care about the settlement anymore, that I would not tolerate the pain and come anymore! I only received a pittance because I could not tolerate the neck manipulations!
That's either ridiculous or you went to a very poor one. Either way, a year? I've never seen anyone that long for a PI or otherwise. And if you received a pttance, it sure as hell wasn't because you couldn't tolerate his neck manips.
The catch 22 is: After a quack traumatizes your spine there is only one doctor that can correct you...a true chiropractor. Half of her symptoms are due to the severe upper cervical subluxation introduced by the quack. Look how she holds her head crooked, isn't it obvious? I fix that patient in just a few visits! Your message shoul be:Dont Go To UNSCIENTIFIC Chiropractors! The SOCIOPATH who's voice you hear has ulterior motives! She attracts sociopaths like her quack chiro and this Infidel.
anything is possible but given the safety record of Chiropractic adjustments and the amazing success of chiropractic patients it would seem to be a perfect storm that lead to Ms. Nette's unfortunate experience. The video is poorly done and amateurish, We know nothing of her history or general health before her cerebral vascular accident. Did she smoke? Did she have high blood pressure? Was she on birth control or hormone replacement? Is she diabetic? What were her risk factors.
Dude, strokes don't generally happen bilaterally in the vertebral arteries. The DC ripped both of them trying to correct an imaginary problem and now she has locked-in syndrome. Incredibly sad.
I'm a RN, and strokes aren't caused from chiropractic adjustments. They are caused from either a part of the gets a lack of blood flow as if from a clot (ischemic stroke) or from bleeding in the brain(hemmoragic stroke). The fact that this happened after the chiropractor is probably just coincidence. None the less I feel for her.
strokes are rare from chiropractic care and tend to be due to genetics, due to diet, and various other factors. so before these quacks go nuts, check out the research i've had chiropractic care after many md's have continuously misdiagnosed and constantly prescribed medication that have hindered my health. i'm not saying that there should not be md's but that chiropractic care and md's can work together that can ensure help to the patients.
That site is a total biased joke. I would advise people take it for 'entertainment purposes only'. Since much of it is good for a laugh. And little else.
I second the quackwatch site, go check it out. In my opinion, chiropractors are quacks and any relief you may get is the power of placebo and the fact that you would have gotten better regardless of any manipulations!
Fake? Gold digger? Wow, you people are warped. Your need to be 'right' prevents you from seeing the horror this woman is enduring. You'd rather write hateful words and make her out to be a villain...than really SEE what's right before your eyes. She deserves compassion, empathy, honor...you only evoke pity for your lack of humanity. I can't imagine how it must be to live in Sandy's broken body...but even worse, I can't imagine how it must be to be you...filled with such hateful pride.
The case must still be in litigation. This video has attorney written all over it. Can't you just imagine the attorney in the background counting dollar signs when he takes this case in front of a jury? And then miraculously the victim (gold digger) will be totally rehabilitated within months after a verdict.
Big Pharma has to like the loss of revenue and rebalance of power!
As long as profits are priority - chiropractors will be sued and aired on TV in a defamatory way.
Wake up people. Chiropractors are stronger and safer then ever.
I feel sorry for Sandra Nette, however she will not win this case. Focus on the recovery of your "random event", rather then channel your anger to an innocent man.
What about this lady's lifestyle, pre-existing conditions and a multitude of other variables which are not factored in to the equation? Oh yeah, they don't have malpractice insurance!
The research proves beyond a doubt that upper neck manipulation is safe, conservative and beneficial. Chiropractors are growing in numbers and that's because the public is in demand of their services. More people are seeing their chiropractor before heading off to their pill pushing MD.
The task force explicit states that indeed there is NO DIFFERENCE in stroke rates between visits to a medical doctor and a chirorpractor for neck pain. Why? Because the neck pain is a SYMPTOM of a stroke in progress (often the only symptom).
So, since DCs adjust (manipulate) the spine and MDs typically prescribe medication for neck pain, it's not the adjustments that causes the stroke. It was going to happen REGARDLESS. The shift in the debate is now how to we better DETECT
CONCLUSION: In Saskatchewan, we observed a dramatic increase in the incidence rate in 2000 and there was a corresponding relatively small increase in chiropractic utilization. In Ontario, there was a small increase in the incidence rate; however, chiropractic utilization decreased. At the ecological level, the increase in VBA stroke does not seem to be associated with an increase in the rate of chiropractic utilization.
Examining vertebrobasilar artery stroke in two Canadian provinces.
STUDY DESIGN: Ecological study. OBJECTIVES: To determine the annual incidence of hospitalized vertebrobasilar artery (VBA) stroke and chiropractic utilization in Saskatchewan and Ontario between 1993 and 2004. To determine whether at an ecological level, the incidence of VBA stroke parallels the incidence of chiropractic utilization.
Internal forces sustained by the vertebral artery during spinal manipulative therapy.Symons BP, Leonard T, Herzog W.
Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of Calgary, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) has been established as a clinically effective modality for the management of several musculoskeletal disorders.
One major issue with the use of SMT is its safety, especially with respect to neck manipulation and the risk of stroke in the vertebrobasilar system. OBJECTIVES: Our objectives were to quantify the strains and forces sustained by the vertebral artery (VA) in situ during SMT. Study Design: This was a cadaveric study. METHODS: Six VAs were obtained from 5 unembalmed postrigor cadavers.
The cephalad/distal (C0-C1) and caudad/proximal (C6-subclavian artery) loops of the VA were carefully exposed and instrumented with a pair of piezoelectric ultrasonographic crystals. The strains between each crystal pair were recorded during range of motion testing and diagnostic tests and during a variety of SMT procedures. The VA was then dissected free and strained on a materials testing machine until mechanical failure occurred.
RESULTS: SMT performed on the contralateral side of the cervical spine resulted in an average strain of 6.2% +/- 1.3% to the distal (C0-C1) loop of the VA and a 2.1% +/- 0.4% strain to the proximal (C6) loop. These values were similar to or lower than the strains recorded during diagnostic and range of motion testing. Failure testing demonstrated that the VAs could be stretched to 139% to 162% of their resting length before mechanical failure occurred.
Therefore the strains sustained by the VA during SMT represent approximately one ninth of the strain at mechanical failure. CONCLUSIONS: SMT resulted in strains to the VA that were almost an order of magnitude lower than the strains required to mechanically disrupt it. We conclude that under normal circumstances, a single typical (high-velocity/low-amplitude) SMT thrust is very unlikely to mechanically disrupt the VA.
Nice post docsrocks. And thanks for posting the important points of the article too. I know that all the skeptics that post on this site would not have read the article if you had only posted the title. And the ones that still are skeptics are the one's that dont know how to read!
neck manipulations don't cause strokes. There is no proven study. What happened to sandy is very unfortunate, and there is a high chance she would have had a stroke even if she visited a regular family doctor.
@itsPatil How would you ever conduct a study to "prove" this unless you purposefully and deliberately manipulated necks with the hypothesis that some harm might be done and then you could measure its frequency? Ever heard of medical ethics? Then, you turn around and make claim that you know the probability of someone having a stroke? I bet you do a lot of research in statistics (not). Perhaps you might wish to get the education on this before commenting?
@itsPatil Tell me, why would anyone wish to increase their risk of harm by adding a trauma that could only harm but has never been proven to benefit? Even if a person was predisposed, where is it ethical practice to add to the danger? We could all be walking around with a stroke in our future, so what is the logic of compounding the risk? Knowing that there is such a risk (and we only know that there is a risk of some probability), why would a chiro EVER perform this?
@ospreylookout Actually, it has been proven to benefit many MSK conditions. Just not to certain people's standards (which tend to be very hypocritical). Secondly, the trauma is about the equivalent of looking up or down. Or even less, depending on technique, which is something completely ignored by the anti's. I get adjusted about every two weeks. Have for almost two decades and still no strokes. Why? The 'risk' is imaginary and my relief isn't.
@docsrocks When you claim that the "trauma is about the equivalant of looking up or down", I wonder how you have come to ascertain this as factual? Have you seen this measured in vivo? How on earth can you claim to know how much torsion these tissues experience and how they react to that trauma, unless it has been systematically studied in the living organism? And, how is "risk" imaginary? What kind of logic is that?
@ospreylookout You might want to look at the relevant data there is. So far, there isn't anything that shows significant trauma is done. Nothing. Tissue stresses have been measured before, during and after cervical manip. There used to be an assumed "risk" that is more and more appearing to be imaginary. There is no data to back up your concerns so far. None.
@docsrocks I am sorry but the only studies that have been done are cadaveric studies. Perhaps it is you who wish to get an education in research and then return to the table to discuss??
@chiropractic47 I really have to commend you on your command of the profane. Other than being able to spell most of your swear words properly, you haven't provided one stitch of credible scientific evidence that demonstrates the efficacy of chiro, or you educational level past high school. You wouldn't have gotten into any other professional program except for the private chiro colleges that will take any goof with a pusle and a cheque book. Pathetic.
@ospreylookout So you were rejected from chiropractic school...hey, it's ok. Look where that got you...a great job as a medical troll! Chiropractic Now!
@docsrocks There continues to be an "assumed risk" for every intervention. Where do you derive your education from? Of course the specific tissues are exposed to forces during high veleocity thrusts that they never experience otherwise. For you to claim that these forces will never traumatize tissues is ludicrous. But, more to the point, it is up to you to prove that this risk is outweighed by the benefit, and you have not.
@chiropractic47 What kind of nutjob uses as his only supporting piece of literature, a book written for the lay person? I am amazed that an idiot like you still has a license to practice anything other than CPR. Perhaps you can find the quote of how many people's lives are saved by virtue of scientific advancements like nutrition, antibiotics, vaccinations, surgery and the myriad of diagnostic and imaging technologies that allow patients to spend more time on this planet than ever before. IDIOT!
@ospreylookout is jealous of chiropractic...ospreylookout is jealous of chiropractic...nah, nah, nah, nah.... We understand your jealousy of chiropractic. If we were medics we too would be jealous of chiropractic.
@ospreylookout Yes, they are exposed to very, very minor forces. Where so you derive your education from? You certainly don't have much of an accurate idea of what SMT is, much less a well done adjustment. As far as "traumatize", I think there is some, but even less than mild movement would cause. As far as "proof", there is plenty for reason. It's just most of it you don't like when it agrees with SMT effectiveness. You just never cease to exagerrate/dramatize.
@itsPatil Are you an idiot? Do you know anything about research and causation at all? With that kind of comment, apparently you haven't finished first year science in a legit university! Causation cannot ever be proven, which is the loophole in this. The incidence is low, but the consequence of the incidence is enormous. GET AN EDUCATION.
Listen you quack. you have been so effectively brainwashed that you are not longer objective. you are making everyone else more stupid from reading your posts. And stop quoting Austin Powers your moron.
Everyone else please educate yourself on the purpose of an inquest and look up what the available verdict options were for the Lewis inquest. Do the research and draw your own conclusions... hopefully you can protect yourself from quacks like docrocks. Good luck.
Yes, I'm brainwashed by anatomy? Physiology? Yep. That's it. God knows if there was some credibility and a real mechanism of injury we could just change techniques used. And that was a joke long before AP used it.
Yes, people need to educate themselves and not listen to witchhunters and lynchmobs.
"Risk of Vertebrobasilar Stroke and Chiropractic Care: Results of a Population-Based, Case-Control and Case-Crossover Study
Cassidy JD, et al. Spine. Vol. 33, No. 4S, pp. S176-S183"
And as for you taking everyone to school on research. LOL you are funny. If there actually was ONE article that conclusively showed that manuplations directly cause stroke, then all schools and government bodies would investigate further and treating necks would change. But there is no article like that. Yes more research is needed, everyone agree's on this. But to date there is no conclusive evidence that HVMA directly cause stroke! Paul you are nothing but a chiro hater. thats your perogative.
"Accident" means they couldn't conclusively say what casued it. She was having early stroke symtoms when she entered his office on Feb. 6 and the adjustment helped the neck pain, but wouldn't stop the stroke from progressing. He adjusted her the next day and didn't recognize blatant stroke symptoms or ignored them. Then again two weeks later. How is that NOT malpractice?
Yes, you are a masterdebator. Go back to playing with your little pony.
Wow, I cited the Parisien case, not Lewis. I was incorrect in that way for once (although correct in the assesment). And admitted it. Lewis was an overweight drinker and heavy smoker with high blood pressure who had a minor stroke 6 days after an smt was performed (and she had been a pt for 18 months at that point), hospitalized/released, then had a major stroke 10 days after that (no further smt had been done). Again, no direct causal evidence was found linking the smt to the stroke. None.
Paul, if you actually read the inquest report that was released by the coroner for the Lewis case, you will find that there was no conclusive evidence that the adjustment caused the stroke. Thats why it was rendered an "accident". Lewis had a number of risk factors of stroke and there were pathologic findings of pre-existing natural
disease (atherosclerosis) in her vertebro-basilar arteries. That is why the experts were divided on the cause of her stoke. Therefore again not conclusive evidence.
docrocks you are an idiot. first ppl here argue about research which i took everyone to school. then the arguement is about legal and i bring the hard fact about the ruling of lana dale lewis. then you fumble and say...psst well it doesn't count.
just face it, you wasted your life training to be a quack. and i am not saying all chiros are, just you because you don't care about facts, you don't care about advancing your profession. There is no discussion with u cause you r completely bias.
No. You really didn't. You're are still in school. You really don't have a clue and nothing you posted counters the lastest reasearch showing there isn't a direct cause. You have not even proposed a likely mechnism of injury to back you're statements either. Just speculation and ad hom. As far as legal, no, but that's where this case is.
Rather than maligning Sandy Nette who clearly has suffered a terrible loss in her life, or chiropractic practice, or the writers here, its important to be objective and human as well. You have to ask, what caused this stroke if not this chiropractic adjustment? Has another medical explanation been given? Has this definitely been given as the medical explanation? Simple coincidence is hardly believable in this case although strange things happen.
also, it is a hidden fact that the deaths from medications and medical doctors are something to ponder.....yes and lawsuits against medical malpractise is very high.....when you visit a health practitioner your life is in danger and you must realize it before you enter.
It is sad for her, but in my own experience I am thankful for Chiropractic manipulation. It has relieved me of "compaction" caused by the the outside stresses "squeesing me into a tiny ball". A visit would often straighten me out or help even with my digestion.
Ok so now we are not talking about research, fine... let's go to the court case... So the court case will settle it. Will it? The case of Lana Dale Lewis already ruled against your point of view. This is a fact and I don't see how that's anti. So you are going to wait until a verdict comes your way right and pounce on it? you are an idiot and your ignorance is only overshadowed by your bias.
I just purchased a blue tooth earpiece for my cellulr phone. It had a warning label stating that keeping the volume high can cause hearing damage. Why is that we are warned of possible harm and risks of just about everything except the possibility of having a debilitating stroke from upper neck adjustments...and even further, since there is no scientific evidence that neck twists are more beneficial than alternative therapies, why do them at all? It just doesn't make sense.
Most people are given waivers when they enter offices, including mine. With that being said, there is no more than anecdotal evidence it casues strokes. By the same breath, your comment that there is no scientific backing is just silly. Headaches of various types and cervicalgia as well as whiplash have all been proven. And what technique, exactly, is a 'neck twist'? That would fall into an osteopathic/PT manipulations, which routinely involve 80+ degrees of rotation. Not chrio techniques.
chiros what do u think of chiro and infertility? I posted on of your colleague's vid & was quickly removed. Search "unable to get pregnant" Ur colleagues infer that chiro cause pregnancy for ppl that are otherwise infertile.
The more I look into chiro the more I feel sorry for you guys. why are you sitting on your hands? Your silence is condoning these practice & continue to perpetuate the quack label. U r not going to get legitimacy that way.
I watched a video the other day of a chiropractic video and it included shot of a woman's chest more than anything else. That, like a claim about infertility is discrediting to chiropractic. But, like the sellout who works with Dr. Barrett, there's not much the rest of us can do about it. While chiropractic MAY help with infertility, we don't CURE anything. Ones who claim to must have missed the boat. We only set the spine in alignment and let the body heal itself. Don't believe all you see here
The point is I don't believe everything here and you shouldn't either. The point is that you chiros spend so much time and energy trying to silence the voice of neck adjustment victims which are the minority (like Sandy), but allow quacks (which are also minorities, I HOPE) to make such claims within your profession and spreading out blatant lies. Why not redirect your efforts to reflect and clean up your profession?
You pointed out a patient giving a testimonial. That's hardly what you claimed it was. What's more, we do have a 'scope of practice' in each state, which limits what we can legally treat. You might want to take a look at those, since they are better than youtube.
funny... when it comes to justifying the practice, chiros use anecdotal patient testimonial but when there is anecdotal testimonial spreading quackery or those that are negative against what they BELIEVE in (like a religion) they ignore it. Why don't you focus your energy in cleaning up your profession? No point in debating ppl here, why don't you post comments on those quacks' video telling them they they are making your profession look real bad.
Well, here's a difference. There is proof/research that shows even the most probable manipulations (which are far and few between) related to stroke don't cause them, so anecdote is easily disproved. You're saying these women are nuts for claiming manipulations allowed the to get pregnant. I have not seen any evidence to either the contrary nor for it. I don't use them, nor would most state boards allow it, but this is youtube. You're way too excited and ridiculous to keep posting.
I know, I think I am too excited with busting illogic statements from chiros. May be because it's too easy. Do I even need to respond to your "proof" and "cause" statement? you are right though, this is a waste of time.
Therein lies your problem. You use only 'logic' bred from ignorance (lack of knowledge on the topic). No, you can't respond because there isn't any. What I told you is solid and you can't argue it. You have failed to prove any point thus far on any post. Why? Because you just don't know what your talking about. But yes, this is a waste of time.
why don't you read back to the rest of the posts where I have already debunked many of chiro's talking points. You are not even at the level of some of your other chiro buddies. You are an intellectual light weight and I refuse to waste more time arguing with you because you obviously know nothing about research.
I'm laughing at you, not with you. You have never answered any of their, nor my, questions/comments satisfactorily. Most of it is gibberish that you liked, but that doesn't float. You're now acting like a child, but so beit. This issue will never be fully settled (there will always be an 'anti' element spewing garbage), but this court case will.
maybe someone should make an appointment to see you and give you a permanant ajustment.I come from a wealthy family and we take care of our own problems WE DONT DIAL 911.
Hey Paulie, it seems like the Knucklehead on here that knows nothing about chiro wants to be on your side. You better educate him before he further embarasses himself on here.
Like I said KnuckleHead, buy hooked on phonics so you can learn how to read and then look up the answer yourself. The only robbery taking place is you robbing us by being on welfare!
After 7 consecutive trimesters of weeding out the non-dedicated or non-educated, you have your core group that are committed to becoming chiropractors. At the 8th quarter, the National Boards begin and we had to pass class, pass clinic and pass the National Boards. So, we are very educated. I may not agree with accepting almost everyone and taking their money in the beginning, but it is a good weed out process. And, the med, dent, and vet rejects are also chiro rejects after a few qtrs. also.
Paul, I actually do agree with you that chiro school is way too easy to get into. I, myself, thought the 2.5 GPA was a joke to get into a professional school. But, after I was in, I saw what they were doing. I don't agree with it, but they accept people, take their money and let them flunk out. It's a weeding process to weed out the uneducated and uncommitted. For the first 7 trimesters or quarters, there was at least one class that in which 30% failed. This was the weeding process.
IF chiropracters are so good why dont they fix people and get it over with.Instead people got to keep going back all their lives for temporary relief.This is no cure and boarderlines robbery.Why not teach people the truth that their problems are from muscle imbalance.Balance the muscle and they will push you bones in place.Chiros answer this what causes herniated discs?you guys are no different then a bunch of criminals who dont take responsabilty for their actions.rob as many as you can!
interested777, you need to change your username to knucklehead911!!! If you're going to take part in a big boy conversation, you need to back to school to learn what you are talking about, instead of spouting foolishness on a blog. Stress causes the problems, until you live a stress-free life, you need to get adjusted. Now, wipe the spittle off of your mouth and read some chiropractic literature to get both sides of the story before giving off your ignorance.
you never answered the questions chirdocjoe.I got big skull racking knuckles.People like you cant run with the big dogs when you pee like a puppy.How many people have you robbed lately 15 guys an hour.
Have you gone back to school yet to take part in this conversation??? The biggest knuckle you got is the one on your head!!! I don't feel the need to educate you. Look up the answers yourself, maybe you'll learn something, sunshine!!!
See my response below. When 97-99% of our patients get better, how can you call it robbing people??? You're so delusional, how do you even function on a day-to-day basis?
My chiropractor doesn't use his hand to make adjustments because it's not precise enough, he has a very specific tool he uses instead. Does anyone know what Sandy's chiropractor used?
DeaPeaJay 3 weeks ago
First of all well said myblinddogs. That is exactly what can happen. Secondly to all those who have written these terrible comments you should be ashamed of yourselves. Is it you sitting in this bed unable to live life? I would suggest that you think twice about it. Whether or not you believe is not the point. The point is this lady has been through something terrible and you who have made these comments are sick in the head and need your own help.
smokeymale50 3 weeks ago
strokes are just as likely to happen in a medical office as in a chiropractic office. Also, you are even more likely to have a stroke while getting your hair done in a salon. The fact that she had a stroke may or may not be related to the adjustment, but why do people go after the whole chiropractic profession for one doctor's mistake when medicine kills dozens of people a day (not just maiming but killing) and no one creates anti-medicine videos?
ghynox 2 months ago
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sad for the family and my heart goes out to them
babys123 3 months ago
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The blood supply that feeds your head travels through your neck. Neck manipulation can overstretch the vertebral or carotid arteries, causing dissection and stroke. This is a known risk and one that chiropractic patients should be told about.
myblinddogs 3 months ago
The blood supply that feeds your head travels through your neck. Neck manipulation can overstretch the vertebral or carotid arteries, causing dissection and stroke. This is a known risk and one that chiropractic patients should be told about.
myblinddogs 3 months ago
the fuck does a stroke gotta do with your neck?????
Burnpnac 5 months ago
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I feel a heartfelt sadness for her,I believe 100% it was due to the chiropractors manipulation . I used to see a chiropractor regularly in Edmonton,for my shoulder and si joint,always careful with my neck ,never forced it. I moved, after a few years of off road trucking I began to experiance neck problems, started doing physio , improved alot.Was making a trip to Edm. so thought since I was there I would pay a visit to my old chiro make sure I was in good shape for the up coming logging season
smilie3232 7 months ago
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smilie3232 7 months ago
. his office was busy , in a hurry ,he put his hands around my neck ,expecting a gentle touch, he just cracked it twisting hard,. I didnt feel good,within a few days I was experiancing visual disturbances ,neck pain and headaches.Went to see my physio doc. He couldnt believe it , my skull was actually crooked ,missed most of logging season , am back to work for now , but am have a host of problems and pain I never had before.
smilie3232 7 months ago
I asked my chiro about this...she's the most honest person I know and a close friend. Most likely she had a pre-existing condition. She went on to say injuries are quite rare. And she said she only pays $4000 a year in malpractice ins. Compare that to MD's that pay quite a bit more. Chiros don't have that many claims against them. Anyway I'm in no way suggesting she's faking this.
whiskeyify 7 months ago 2
If you were her would you be thinking that chrio's are for the better
tomoliverpool8 8 months ago
I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend this lady but if that happend to me. I would be typing "kill me" over and over again. i would not want to live like that.
jazar 9 months ago
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3 minutes ago
PART 5:so this never happens to anyone again. thanks for listening. before I leave one last stat (and this is in many peer reviewed journals, look it up if you dont believe me). The odds of getting a stroke from a cervical adjustment has been estimated at 1 in 1 million to 1 in 6 million!! To comprehend this further. The chance of someone dying from Tylenol is 1 in 20 thousand!
McGizz17 1 year ago
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McGizz17 1 year ago
PART 4: does. I played hockey and football myself, and I can tell you a hit from behind in hockey with my neck turned produced much more force then an adjustment and would cause a stroke much more readily. I think the issue here is a) patients must seek a good chiropractic doctor (proper history, physical etc), not one who spends 2 minutes and crack crack your done. BUT as in any health profession there are good and bad( EVEN medical doctors!). And b) chiropractors much know the warning signs
McGizz17 1 year ago 2
PART3: professional for a second opinion. In addition we are taught that NOT EVERYTHING warrants an adjustment and that certain conditions or warning signs may implicate that an adjustment is, in fact, a contraindication to the patients well being. I have had neck adjustments done personally and if dont correctly has very little force. I contend that anyone who plays a physical sport(hockey, football etc) has most likely had way more force through their neck then what a chiropractic adjustment
McGizz17 1 year ago
@McGizz17 I would even say anyone who has had a 'pat on the back' has had more force to their neck than most cervical manipulations, but absolutely with physical sports.
docsrocks 1 year ago
PART 2:have learned in school I can tell you that neck manipulations are safe procedures IF DONE Correctly. The thing with chiropractic, and in my opinion what needs to be rectified, is that there are so many DIFFERENT forms of chiropractic. I am taught diversified chiropractic. We are taught to give thorough patient histories, reflex testing, motor testing, and proper orthopaedic tests BEFORE giving a diagnosis. We are also taught that if we are UNSURE of our diagnosis to contact other health
McGizz17 1 year ago
PART 1: Being a Chiropractic Student I just wanted to comment in general about Adjustments and the whole profession. I Will say that firstly, after long consideration about my future I chose chiropractic because of personal experiences and a true interest in helping people. So people dont think its because its the only school i got into I will let you know I wrote the LSAT and got into two Ontario universities for law school but chose chiropractic instead. In saying this, and in learning what I
McGizz17 1 year ago
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McGizz17 1 year ago
In these video comments: sympathizers, idiots and chiro-champions who try to 'down' medicine. Give me a break. You know medicine is damn well ahead of where chiro truly wants to be. You know chiro has a whole bunch of kooky shit about it. Look, time will tell whether or not this shit actually works, so spend your energy in the lab trying to demonstrate its effectiveness. In the meantime I will clearly 100% ignore your comments. Ciao for now!!!!!
CntrBrdr 1 year ago
Poor Sandy is led by her medical litigation attorneys as if reading from a telepromter. Leave the poor lady alone you asshole medics and lawyers!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
There is a direct connection between vertebral artery and the vertebrae. Consequently, vertebral artery dissection does happen. Ask a neurologist or neurology surgeon. I've been told that there is strong research that supports or warrants lower back manipulation, but not c-spine.
dizzyprizzy 1 year ago
@dizzyprizzy you were dizzed out by a jerk neurologist. Neurologist were the primary medial professional who exonerated chiropractic.
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@dizzyprizzy Funny, my MD patients don't seem to agree.
docsrocks 1 year ago
ospreylookout is a dip shit troll. jelous of chiropractic, he slithers in and out of the troll portal. Chiropractic...it's a natural!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@chiropractic47 You my pathetic man, are probably chiropractic's own worst enemy. If anyone bothered to peruse your posts, they would be most impressed by your use of profane language. Other than that, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of science, neurology and research methodology. Are you unable to connect the dots as to why the public is so concerned about chiropractic? QUACKERY!
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout It must feel real good feeling like an asshole? We have no idea what you are feeling but you seem to like it alot. Gosh, we admire you....NOT!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
The fact that the law suit was thrown out was not a reflection of anything except that a class action suit was not appropriate. This should not be misconstrued as somehow letting the chiro profession off the hook for what remains a poorly supported modality with benefits that have not been shown to offset the risks. C-spine manips ADD risk in ways that are not known.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
chiropractic is bogus. It does nothing . Any one who claims it cured their back or neck pain needs to know most neck and back pain will resole itself without one of these quacks popping their spines..stay well away from them
lerxt42 1 year ago
@lerxt42 Too late! It has been determined that you are bogus and negates your claim. Chiropractic Now!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
there are billions of video here people asking attention . your work is appreciated by all of us who know the importance of being kind to others , your bad experience with somebody has given you pain , but you are helping others with what you have learnt.
DISKETTES1000 1 year ago
Sandy, please continue to tell your story in whatever means you have available.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout Oh so sweet of you! Such kind words from a medical troll of chiropractic vids? Chiropractic Now!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
Sandy, there are people out here who wish there was more that could be done for you. I hope that you do not give up fighting. Even though there was a set-back, I hope your sad case can be used so that it can NEVER happen to another person again, at least in Canada.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout As for their case..as sad as it is...that is over as well. And so is their fight. There are many sad cases in life. As Al Pachino says in Heat " You can get killed walking your doggie" Trying to destroy a profession, sue the city/gov and all chiropractors as a whole was a bit over zealous. They should have stuck to a simple malpractice suit. They may have had a chance to win that. But i really doubt it.
krzyweplecy2 1 year ago 2
Check out Quackwatch
filthyspigot 1 year ago
For some good laughs.
trulyheaven777 1 year ago
Chiro is complete quackery. They cause pain and not help pain. They dont help acne allergies or asthma or blood pressure. One nut chiro said he cured aids. Chiro needs to be banned now.
theenforcer1977 1 year ago
@theenforcer1977 Yes, you are a tool.
trulyheaven777 1 year ago
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krzyweplecy2 2 years ago 7
@krzyweplecy2 : Again, how on earth could there ever be a "direct" link proven in humans? To do so would be to put someone knowingly in hearms way to study the probability of the occurance? If you are a chiro, I suggest that you push hard to get your curriculum to include research methodology and statistics, and then with that, take a look at how many "indirect" cases exist of CVA's occuring post manip. Quacks should be barred from c-spine manips altogether!!!
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout before commenting on something you know nothing about, do some research. But before you even get into the peer reviewed literarture, find out what "direct and idirect" means. As for statistics you obviously dont understand how statistics in medicine and for adverse reactions is calculated. DO your homework.
krzyweplecy2 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 You claim that I know nothing about this, yet you make the assertion without evidence, and this is exacty the point. Chiro makes claims without evidence. That I do research in science and publish in legitmate journals is enough for me to enter into this dialogue, so instead of trashing me, why don't you simply offer up the evidence that there is sufficient grounds for c-spine manips? Keep your trash talk for someone who won't make you look like a tool.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout In the mean time...quit beating a dead horse! this conversation is over. The courts have decided, and the peer reviewed meta analysis of the lit is out. There is NO Direct link between chiro adjustments and stroke. The relationship is Indirect at best. Does it happen, YES, There is no denying this. It is a risk. It could happen while visiting your chiro, your MD, your barber or hair stylist, you judo instructor.
krzyweplecy2 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 Sorry pal, but the meta analysis is not conclusive. When was the last stats course you took? Ever bothered to sit in on a research methodology course or 10? Whacko!
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout All beacause of YOUR preexisting condition...and there is no way to know unless you get an MRI before every adjustment. Which will never happen, and even a MD would not order a MRI for a headache and stiff neck.
krzyweplecy2 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 If a pre-existing condition might exist, why on earth would someone wish that to be compounded by the trauma of a c-spine manip? If a person has a desiccating vertebral artery, what argument is there for them to take the chance at all? The evidence is weak at best that c-spine manip is effective for treating most conditions, so why take the chance? The benefits do not outweigh the risks; the consequence of stroke is devastating and only takes a single event to ruin a life.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 : How might one prove causation in this type of case? The case was tossed as a class action suit, those grounds, not on the grounds of causation. Wake up pal. The woman is in this state, period. She went to a chiro who manip'd her neck, period. She had a stroke, period. There is a correlationship. Simply because there cannot be proven a smoking gun does not detract from some possibility that had she not had her necked manip'd, then this would not have happened.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 : By the way, when you use the term "scientific debate", umm, isn't that the debate right there? Where is the science that supports chiro in the first place? Where are the RCT's? Why can chiros continue to make claims about infant colic or vaccinations, or most of the conditions they treat, but without evidence? That is the debate....Why won't chiro be honest?
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 Though Sandy's situation is very sad, your correct that, "Medical" research on this matter does not lead to chiropractic as a culpable suspect. Wether her preexisting risk of stroke and the cervical adjustment were conjoining factors remains a mystery. Too many to list medications and surgeries cause stroke, why do people take partake in them while chiropractic continues to help millions.
chiropractic47 1 year ago
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ospreylookout 1 year ago
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@chiropractic47 I am amazed that someone who writes with the grammer and inability to spell that you display were ever admitted to any college without remedial English courses. Get an education in research methodology and stats (and SCIENCE) before you go yapping way beyond your scope. Chiro is bogus and not worth the risk.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
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@chiropractic47 I am amazed that someone who writes with the grammer and inability to spell that you display were ever admitted to any college without remedial English courses. Get an education in research methodology and stats (and SCIENCE) before you go yapping way beyond your scope. Chiro is bogus and not worth the risk.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@krzyweplecy2 First off, it was thrown out, because a class action suit was not appropriate, and once the choice is made to go that route, you cannot back up. However, what is as important is the issue of risk versus benefit. Even with a small risk, the consequences (as we can see) of only one incident, are devastating. So, what is the benefit of c-spine manips? Where is the evidence that this is worth the risk? Chiro is QUACKERY!
ospreylookout 1 year ago
This story is incredibly sad for the family and my heart goes out to them. That said the judge in the case has recently rejected the class action suit because it did not meet any of the 11 requirements for it to proceed in court. There is no more legal action against the Dr, or the Provence of Alberta.
canadagoose100 2 years ago 5
What about all the patients medical dr. kill? 'Any risk is too risky'? With that logic you couldn't take an asprin, let alone have any standard medical treatment, or walk across the street...
knegg396 2 years ago
I put chiropractors right next to witch doctors when it comes to choosing medical treatment. Even if the risk was one in 10 million for paralysis, why would anyone take the risk. Go see a "real" doctor, not a wannabe.
Zebra902 2 years ago 2
@Zebra902
Probably becasue it works a lot better than medical care. You can put them where ever you want, but that means very little.
trulyheaven777 2 years ago
@Zebra902
To be exact, I'm talking NMSK injuries.
trulyheaven777 2 years ago
you read through some of these comments and it's obvious some of these same people are absolutely clueless about the current research regarding chiropractic manipulation and stroke. i encourage people to read the facts from published research. i also will remind people that physical therapists and osteopathic physicians also manipulate the neck.
jersey1969krw 2 years ago
...He said it worked just as well, only it took longer. I said I didn't mind paying more if it was safer and more natural.
iamtheralwus 2 years ago
The risk of stroke from neck manipulations is one in one million, five million, ten million, depending on who you ask. But remember, that "one" could come up at any time! "Any" risk is too risky, in my opinion. I recently saw a chiropractor and discussed the matter with him. He offered an alternative tratment, called "mobilisation". I found it helped. He very slowly and gently moved my neck in the directions it should naturally move, and no further.
iamtheralwus 2 years ago
I had to go to a chiropractor for about a year as part of an injury lawsuit. At the end (he was mainly working on my back) he manipulated my neck, which I had asked him not to do. It made me much worse, and I said I didn`t care about the settlement anymore, that I would not tolerate the pain and come anymore! I only received a pittance because I could not tolerate the neck manipulations!
parrotnutz 2 years ago 3
That's either ridiculous or you went to a very poor one. Either way, a year? I've never seen anyone that long for a PI or otherwise. And if you received a pttance, it sure as hell wasn't because you couldn't tolerate his neck manips.
docsrocks 2 years ago
@parrotnutz Go to another chiropractic doctor as you have done with medical doctors.
chiropractic47 1 year ago
The catch 22 is: After a quack traumatizes your spine there is only one doctor that can correct you...a true chiropractor. Half of her symptoms are due to the severe upper cervical subluxation introduced by the quack. Look how she holds her head crooked, isn't it obvious? I fix that patient in just a few visits! Your message shoul be:Dont Go To UNSCIENTIFIC Chiropractors! The SOCIOPATH who's voice you hear has ulterior motives! She attracts sociopaths like her quack chiro and this Infidel.
dempstead 2 years ago
anything is possible but given the safety record of Chiropractic adjustments and the amazing success of chiropractic patients it would seem to be a perfect storm that lead to Ms. Nette's unfortunate experience. The video is poorly done and amateurish, We know nothing of her history or general health before her cerebral vascular accident. Did she smoke? Did she have high blood pressure? Was she on birth control or hormone replacement? Is she diabetic? What were her risk factors.
carpdc1 2 years ago
Dude, strokes don't generally happen bilaterally in the vertebral arteries. The DC ripped both of them trying to correct an imaginary problem and now she has locked-in syndrome. Incredibly sad.
cowy1 2 years ago 2
I'm a RN, and strokes aren't caused from chiropractic adjustments. They are caused from either a part of the gets a lack of blood flow as if from a clot (ischemic stroke) or from bleeding in the brain(hemmoragic stroke). The fact that this happened after the chiropractor is probably just coincidence. None the less I feel for her.
jonmar80 3 years ago
You're an RN but you dont have a clue as to what
you're talking about. visit the quackwatch (dot) org
website.
This is totally legit, and i would not advise anyone to get their neck manipulated.
aenge9884 2 years ago
because quackwatch is truly an unbiased site. HA!
strokes are rare from chiropractic care and tend to be due to genetics, due to diet, and various other factors. so before these quacks go nuts, check out the research i've had chiropractic care after many md's have continuously misdiagnosed and constantly prescribed medication that have hindered my health. i'm not saying that there should not be md's but that chiropractic care and md's can work together that can ensure help to the patients.
yoshi310 2 years ago
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docsrocks 2 years ago
That site is a total biased joke. I would advise people take it for 'entertainment purposes only'. Since much of it is good for a laugh. And little else.
docsrocks 2 years ago
I second the quackwatch site, go check it out. In my opinion, chiropractors are quacks and any relief you may get is the power of placebo and the fact that you would have gotten better regardless of any manipulations!
parrotnutz 2 years ago 3
exactly
SteeleJim123 2 years ago
Agreed.
dempstead 2 years ago
Fake? Gold digger? Wow, you people are warped. Your need to be 'right' prevents you from seeing the horror this woman is enduring. You'd rather write hateful words and make her out to be a villain...than really SEE what's right before your eyes. She deserves compassion, empathy, honor...you only evoke pity for your lack of humanity. I can't imagine how it must be to live in Sandy's broken body...but even worse, I can't imagine how it must be to be you...filled with such hateful pride.
JJO0730 3 years ago 8
ahh...the gold digger likes to smile
captinofireland 3 years ago
drtme, why don't you call the hospital to confirm? you are full of it.
danno321s 3 years ago
This is totally FAKE! Notice at 3:51 when she smiles. Both sides of her mouth raise. This would not happen in a true stroke victim.
drtme 3 years ago
This is totally FAKE! Notice at 3:51 when she smiles. Both sides of her mouth raise. This would not happen in a true stroke victim.
drtme 3 years ago
You should be a M.D.! Injury of nerves and brain can manifest itself in many ways that differ by person.
danno321s 3 years ago
If this were truly a stroke case, then the facial muscles would be involved. Again, she is milking this.
drtme 3 years ago
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fabulous7 2 years ago
The case must still be in litigation. This video has attorney written all over it. Can't you just imagine the attorney in the background counting dollar signs when he takes this case in front of a jury? And then miraculously the victim (gold digger) will be totally rehabilitated within months after a verdict.
I SEE A GOLD DIGGER!!!
I SEE A GOLD DIGGER!!!
drtme 3 years ago
The greatest risk about going to a chiropractor is the drive there!
fullarton007 3 years ago
Big Pharma has to like the loss of revenue and rebalance of power!
As long as profits are priority - chiropractors will be sued and aired on TV in a defamatory way.
Wake up people. Chiropractors are stronger and safer then ever.
I feel sorry for Sandra Nette, however she will not win this case. Focus on the recovery of your "random event", rather then channel your anger to an innocent man.
fullarton007 3 years ago 3
What about this lady's lifestyle, pre-existing conditions and a multitude of other variables which are not factored in to the equation? Oh yeah, they don't have malpractice insurance!
The research proves beyond a doubt that upper neck manipulation is safe, conservative and beneficial. Chiropractors are growing in numbers and that's because the public is in demand of their services. More people are seeing their chiropractor before heading off to their pill pushing MD.
fullarton007 3 years ago 2
truly heaven77
The task force explicit states that indeed there is NO DIFFERENCE in stroke rates between visits to a medical doctor and a chirorpractor for neck pain. Why? Because the neck pain is a SYMPTOM of a stroke in progress (often the only symptom).
So, since DCs adjust (manipulate) the spine and MDs typically prescribe medication for neck pain, it's not the adjustments that causes the stroke. It was going to happen REGARDLESS. The shift in the debate is now how to we better DETECT
Bronstone 3 years ago
Exactly.
trulyheaven777 3 years ago 2
I like it how everyone is arguing with each other on posts instead of looking at the real picture.
loisangus 3 years ago
Whats the real picture?
krzyweplecy2 3 years ago
I guess we'll never know.
docsrocks 3 years ago
CONCLUSION: In Saskatchewan, we observed a dramatic increase in the incidence rate in 2000 and there was a corresponding relatively small increase in chiropractic utilization. In Ontario, there was a small increase in the incidence rate; however, chiropractic utilization decreased. At the ecological level, the increase in VBA stroke does not seem to be associated with an increase in the rate of chiropractic utilization.
Bronstone 3 years ago
US Bone and Joint Decade Task Force on Neck Pain-No greater chance of suffering a stroke following chiropractic visit vs. family doctor visit.
trulyheaven777 3 years ago
Spine. 2008 Feb 15;33(4 Suppl):S170-5.
Examining vertebrobasilar artery stroke in two Canadian provinces.
STUDY DESIGN: Ecological study. OBJECTIVES: To determine the annual incidence of hospitalized vertebrobasilar artery (VBA) stroke and chiropractic utilization in Saskatchewan and Ontario between 1993 and 2004. To determine whether at an ecological level, the incidence of VBA stroke parallels the incidence of chiropractic utilization.
Bronstone 3 years ago
Internal forces sustained by the vertebral artery during spinal manipulative therapy.Symons BP, Leonard T, Herzog W.
Human Performance Laboratory, Faculty of Kinesiology, University of Calgary, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) has been established as a clinically effective modality for the management of several musculoskeletal disorders.
docsrocks 3 years ago
One major issue with the use of SMT is its safety, especially with respect to neck manipulation and the risk of stroke in the vertebrobasilar system. OBJECTIVES: Our objectives were to quantify the strains and forces sustained by the vertebral artery (VA) in situ during SMT. Study Design: This was a cadaveric study. METHODS: Six VAs were obtained from 5 unembalmed postrigor cadavers.
docsrocks 3 years ago
The cephalad/distal (C0-C1) and caudad/proximal (C6-subclavian artery) loops of the VA were carefully exposed and instrumented with a pair of piezoelectric ultrasonographic crystals. The strains between each crystal pair were recorded during range of motion testing and diagnostic tests and during a variety of SMT procedures. The VA was then dissected free and strained on a materials testing machine until mechanical failure occurred.
docsrocks 3 years ago
RESULTS: SMT performed on the contralateral side of the cervical spine resulted in an average strain of 6.2% +/- 1.3% to the distal (C0-C1) loop of the VA and a 2.1% +/- 0.4% strain to the proximal (C6) loop. These values were similar to or lower than the strains recorded during diagnostic and range of motion testing. Failure testing demonstrated that the VAs could be stretched to 139% to 162% of their resting length before mechanical failure occurred.
docsrocks 3 years ago
Therefore the strains sustained by the VA during SMT represent approximately one ninth of the strain at mechanical failure. CONCLUSIONS: SMT resulted in strains to the VA that were almost an order of magnitude lower than the strains required to mechanically disrupt it. We conclude that under normal circumstances, a single typical (high-velocity/low-amplitude) SMT thrust is very unlikely to mechanically disrupt the VA.
PMID: 12381972 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
docsrocks 3 years ago
Did you get that? "1/9th the strain at mechanical failure".
docsrocks 3 years ago 2
Nice post docsrocks. And thanks for posting the important points of the article too. I know that all the skeptics that post on this site would not have read the article if you had only posted the title. And the ones that still are skeptics are the one's that dont know how to read!
krzyweplecy2 3 years ago 3
neck manipulations don't cause strokes. There is no proven study. What happened to sandy is very unfortunate, and there is a high chance she would have had a stroke even if she visited a regular family doctor.
itsPatil 3 years ago 5
@itsPatil How would you ever conduct a study to "prove" this unless you purposefully and deliberately manipulated necks with the hypothesis that some harm might be done and then you could measure its frequency? Ever heard of medical ethics? Then, you turn around and make claim that you know the probability of someone having a stroke? I bet you do a lot of research in statistics (not). Perhaps you might wish to get the education on this before commenting?
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@itsPatil Tell me, why would anyone wish to increase their risk of harm by adding a trauma that could only harm but has never been proven to benefit? Even if a person was predisposed, where is it ethical practice to add to the danger? We could all be walking around with a stroke in our future, so what is the logic of compounding the risk? Knowing that there is such a risk (and we only know that there is a risk of some probability), why would a chiro EVER perform this?
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout Actually, it has been proven to benefit many MSK conditions. Just not to certain people's standards (which tend to be very hypocritical). Secondly, the trauma is about the equivalent of looking up or down. Or even less, depending on technique, which is something completely ignored by the anti's. I get adjusted about every two weeks. Have for almost two decades and still no strokes. Why? The 'risk' is imaginary and my relief isn't.
docsrocks 1 year ago
@docsrocks Way to go docsrocks! Chiropractic Now!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@docsrocks When you claim that the "trauma is about the equivalant of looking up or down", I wonder how you have come to ascertain this as factual? Have you seen this measured in vivo? How on earth can you claim to know how much torsion these tissues experience and how they react to that trauma, unless it has been systematically studied in the living organism? And, how is "risk" imaginary? What kind of logic is that?
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout You might want to look at the relevant data there is. So far, there isn't anything that shows significant trauma is done. Nothing. Tissue stresses have been measured before, during and after cervical manip. There used to be an assumed "risk" that is more and more appearing to be imaginary. There is no data to back up your concerns so far. None.
docsrocks 1 year ago
@docsrocks I am sorry but the only studies that have been done are cadaveric studies. Perhaps it is you who wish to get an education in research and then return to the table to discuss??
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout Aren't you ospreylookout the huge asshole?
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@chiropractic47 I really have to commend you on your command of the profane. Other than being able to spell most of your swear words properly, you haven't provided one stitch of credible scientific evidence that demonstrates the efficacy of chiro, or you educational level past high school. You wouldn't have gotten into any other professional program except for the private chiro colleges that will take any goof with a pusle and a cheque book. Pathetic.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout So you were rejected from chiropractic school...hey, it's ok. Look where that got you...a great job as a medical troll! Chiropractic Now!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@ospreylookout Why? What is it you think you've "produced" that's relevant?
docsrocks 1 year ago
@docsrocks There continues to be an "assumed risk" for every intervention. Where do you derive your education from? Of course the specific tissues are exposed to forces during high veleocity thrusts that they never experience otherwise. For you to claim that these forces will never traumatize tissues is ludicrous. But, more to the point, it is up to you to prove that this risk is outweighed by the benefit, and you have not.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout So what have you to say for the 800,000 Americans killed by medicine each year? ("Death by Medicine" by Gary Null, PhD, et all)
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@chiropractic47 What kind of nutjob uses as his only supporting piece of literature, a book written for the lay person? I am amazed that an idiot like you still has a license to practice anything other than CPR. Perhaps you can find the quote of how many people's lives are saved by virtue of scientific advancements like nutrition, antibiotics, vaccinations, surgery and the myriad of diagnostic and imaging technologies that allow patients to spend more time on this planet than ever before. IDIOT!
ospreylookout 1 year ago
@ospreylookout is jealous of chiropractic...ospreylookout is jealous of chiropractic...nah, nah, nah, nah.... We understand your jealousy of chiropractic. If we were medics we too would be jealous of chiropractic.
chiropractic47 1 year ago
@ospreylookout Yes, they are exposed to very, very minor forces. Where so you derive your education from? You certainly don't have much of an accurate idea of what SMT is, much less a well done adjustment. As far as "traumatize", I think there is some, but even less than mild movement would cause. As far as "proof", there is plenty for reason. It's just most of it you don't like when it agrees with SMT effectiveness. You just never cease to exagerrate/dramatize.
docsrocks 1 year ago
@itsPatil Are you an idiot? Do you know anything about research and causation at all? With that kind of comment, apparently you haven't finished first year science in a legit university! Causation cannot ever be proven, which is the loophole in this. The incidence is low, but the consequence of the incidence is enormous. GET AN EDUCATION.
ospreylookout 1 year ago
Listen you quack. you have been so effectively brainwashed that you are not longer objective. you are making everyone else more stupid from reading your posts. And stop quoting Austin Powers your moron.
Everyone else please educate yourself on the purpose of an inquest and look up what the available verdict options were for the Lewis inquest. Do the research and draw your own conclusions... hopefully you can protect yourself from quacks like docrocks. Good luck.
paulc747 3 years ago
Yes, I'm brainwashed by anatomy? Physiology? Yep. That's it. God knows if there was some credibility and a real mechanism of injury we could just change techniques used. And that was a joke long before AP used it.
Yes, people need to educate themselves and not listen to witchhunters and lynchmobs.
"Risk of Vertebrobasilar Stroke and Chiropractic Care: Results of a Population-Based, Case-Control and Case-Crossover Study
Cassidy JD, et al. Spine. Vol. 33, No. 4S, pp. S176-S183"
docsrocks 3 years ago
And as for you taking everyone to school on research. LOL you are funny. If there actually was ONE article that conclusively showed that manuplations directly cause stroke, then all schools and government bodies would investigate further and treating necks would change. But there is no article like that. Yes more research is needed, everyone agree's on this. But to date there is no conclusive evidence that HVMA directly cause stroke! Paul you are nothing but a chiro hater. thats your perogative.
krzyweplecy2 3 years ago 3
Typo: That was supposed to be HVLA. My bad
krzyweplecy2 3 years ago
and for your information, it was ruled with the worst possible outcome. "accident"
it's not a malpractice. stop misleading people. get your facts straight before you participate in big boys debate.
now go back to your sandbox.
paulc747 3 years ago
"Accident" means they couldn't conclusively say what casued it. She was having early stroke symtoms when she entered his office on Feb. 6 and the adjustment helped the neck pain, but wouldn't stop the stroke from progressing. He adjusted her the next day and didn't recognize blatant stroke symptoms or ignored them. Then again two weeks later. How is that NOT malpractice?
Yes, you are a masterdebator. Go back to playing with your little pony.
docsrocks 3 years ago
Wow, I cited the Parisien case, not Lewis. I was incorrect in that way for once (although correct in the assesment). And admitted it. Lewis was an overweight drinker and heavy smoker with high blood pressure who had a minor stroke 6 days after an smt was performed (and she had been a pt for 18 months at that point), hospitalized/released, then had a major stroke 10 days after that (no further smt had been done). Again, no direct causal evidence was found linking the smt to the stroke. None.
docsrocks 3 years ago
Paul, if you actually read the inquest report that was released by the coroner for the Lewis case, you will find that there was no conclusive evidence that the adjustment caused the stroke. Thats why it was rendered an "accident". Lewis had a number of risk factors of stroke and there were pathologic findings of pre-existing natural
disease (atherosclerosis) in her vertebro-basilar arteries. That is why the experts were divided on the cause of her stoke. Therefore again not conclusive evidence.
krzyweplecy2 3 years ago
docrocks you are an idiot. first ppl here argue about research which i took everyone to school. then the arguement is about legal and i bring the hard fact about the ruling of lana dale lewis. then you fumble and say...psst well it doesn't count.
just face it, you wasted your life training to be a quack. and i am not saying all chiros are, just you because you don't care about facts, you don't care about advancing your profession. There is no discussion with u cause you r completely bias.
paulc747 3 years ago
No. You really didn't. You're are still in school. You really don't have a clue and nothing you posted counters the lastest reasearch showing there isn't a direct cause. You have not even proposed a likely mechnism of injury to back you're statements either. Just speculation and ad hom. As far as legal, no, but that's where this case is.
docsrocks 3 years ago
Rather than maligning Sandy Nette who clearly has suffered a terrible loss in her life, or chiropractic practice, or the writers here, its important to be objective and human as well. You have to ask, what caused this stroke if not this chiropractic adjustment? Has another medical explanation been given? Has this definitely been given as the medical explanation? Simple coincidence is hardly believable in this case although strange things happen.
westernwynd 3 years ago
also, it is a hidden fact that the deaths from medications and medical doctors are something to ponder.....yes and lawsuits against medical malpractise is very high.....when you visit a health practitioner your life is in danger and you must realize it before you enter.
LOLhahaha007 3 years ago
It is sad for her, but in my own experience I am thankful for Chiropractic manipulation. It has relieved me of "compaction" caused by the the outside stresses "squeesing me into a tiny ball". A visit would often straighten me out or help even with my digestion.
LOLhahaha007 3 years ago
Man.....that really sucks alot
meslem99 3 years ago
Ok so now we are not talking about research, fine... let's go to the court case... So the court case will settle it. Will it? The case of Lana Dale Lewis already ruled against your point of view. This is a fact and I don't see how that's anti. So you are going to wait until a verdict comes your way right and pounce on it? you are an idiot and your ignorance is only overshadowed by your bias.
paulc747 3 years ago
Wrong as usual. Lana Dale Lewis was the victim of blatant malpractice. Not that an adjustment caused her stroke. You are just another fanatic paul.
docsrocks 3 years ago
I just purchased a blue tooth earpiece for my cellulr phone. It had a warning label stating that keeping the volume high can cause hearing damage. Why is that we are warned of possible harm and risks of just about everything except the possibility of having a debilitating stroke from upper neck adjustments...and even further, since there is no scientific evidence that neck twists are more beneficial than alternative therapies, why do them at all? It just doesn't make sense.
christaheck 3 years ago
Most people are given waivers when they enter offices, including mine. With that being said, there is no more than anecdotal evidence it casues strokes. By the same breath, your comment that there is no scientific backing is just silly. Headaches of various types and cervicalgia as well as whiplash have all been proven. And what technique, exactly, is a 'neck twist'? That would fall into an osteopathic/PT manipulations, which routinely involve 80+ degrees of rotation. Not chrio techniques.
docsrocks 3 years ago
chiros what do u think of chiro and infertility? I posted on of your colleague's vid & was quickly removed. Search "unable to get pregnant" Ur colleagues infer that chiro cause pregnancy for ppl that are otherwise infertile.
The more I look into chiro the more I feel sorry for you guys. why are you sitting on your hands? Your silence is condoning these practice & continue to perpetuate the quack label. U r not going to get legitimacy that way.
paulc747 3 years ago
There is no reason to think it helps with in fertility.
I'm not even sure that I've ever seen any advertising for such. Many silly things are on youtube, and much of it is even farce.
docsrocks 3 years ago
why don't you go respond to your chiro buddies, i have already pointed you to the advertisement.
paulc747 3 years ago
I watched a video the other day of a chiropractic video and it included shot of a woman's chest more than anything else. That, like a claim about infertility is discrediting to chiropractic. But, like the sellout who works with Dr. Barrett, there's not much the rest of us can do about it. While chiropractic MAY help with infertility, we don't CURE anything. Ones who claim to must have missed the boat. We only set the spine in alignment and let the body heal itself. Don't believe all you see here
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
The point is I don't believe everything here and you shouldn't either. The point is that you chiros spend so much time and energy trying to silence the voice of neck adjustment victims which are the minority (like Sandy), but allow quacks (which are also minorities, I HOPE) to make such claims within your profession and spreading out blatant lies. Why not redirect your efforts to reflect and clean up your profession?
paulc747 3 years ago
You pointed out a patient giving a testimonial. That's hardly what you claimed it was. What's more, we do have a 'scope of practice' in each state, which limits what we can legally treat. You might want to take a look at those, since they are better than youtube.
docsrocks 3 years ago
funny... when it comes to justifying the practice, chiros use anecdotal patient testimonial but when there is anecdotal testimonial spreading quackery or those that are negative against what they BELIEVE in (like a religion) they ignore it. Why don't you focus your energy in cleaning up your profession? No point in debating ppl here, why don't you post comments on those quacks' video telling them they they are making your profession look real bad.
paulc747 3 years ago
Well, here's a difference. There is proof/research that shows even the most probable manipulations (which are far and few between) related to stroke don't cause them, so anecdote is easily disproved. You're saying these women are nuts for claiming manipulations allowed the to get pregnant. I have not seen any evidence to either the contrary nor for it. I don't use them, nor would most state boards allow it, but this is youtube. You're way too excited and ridiculous to keep posting.
docsrocks 3 years ago
I know, I think I am too excited with busting illogic statements from chiros. May be because it's too easy. Do I even need to respond to your "proof" and "cause" statement? you are right though, this is a waste of time.
paulc747 3 years ago
Therein lies your problem. You use only 'logic' bred from ignorance (lack of knowledge on the topic). No, you can't respond because there isn't any. What I told you is solid and you can't argue it. You have failed to prove any point thus far on any post. Why? Because you just don't know what your talking about. But yes, this is a waste of time.
docsrocks 3 years ago
why don't you read back to the rest of the posts where I have already debunked many of chiro's talking points. You are not even at the level of some of your other chiro buddies. You are an intellectual light weight and I refuse to waste more time arguing with you because you obviously know nothing about research.
paulc747 3 years ago
I'm laughing at you, not with you. You have never answered any of their, nor my, questions/comments satisfactorily. Most of it is gibberish that you liked, but that doesn't float. You're now acting like a child, but so beit. This issue will never be fully settled (there will always be an 'anti' element spewing garbage), but this court case will.
docsrocks 3 years ago
maybe someone should make an appointment to see you and give you a permanant ajustment.I come from a wealthy family and we take care of our own problems WE DONT DIAL 911.
interested777 3 years ago
Wow. I am impressed. Will you be in 6th or 7th grade this fall?
trulyheaven777 3 years ago
Hey Paulie, it seems like the Knucklehead on here that knows nothing about chiro wants to be on your side. You better educate him before he further embarasses himself on here.
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
Like I said KnuckleHead, buy hooked on phonics so you can learn how to read and then look up the answer yourself. The only robbery taking place is you robbing us by being on welfare!
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
After 7 consecutive trimesters of weeding out the non-dedicated or non-educated, you have your core group that are committed to becoming chiropractors. At the 8th quarter, the National Boards begin and we had to pass class, pass clinic and pass the National Boards. So, we are very educated. I may not agree with accepting almost everyone and taking their money in the beginning, but it is a good weed out process. And, the med, dent, and vet rejects are also chiro rejects after a few qtrs. also.
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
Paul, I actually do agree with you that chiro school is way too easy to get into. I, myself, thought the 2.5 GPA was a joke to get into a professional school. But, after I was in, I saw what they were doing. I don't agree with it, but they accept people, take their money and let them flunk out. It's a weeding process to weed out the uneducated and uncommitted. For the first 7 trimesters or quarters, there was at least one class that in which 30% failed. This was the weeding process.
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
IF chiropracters are so good why dont they fix people and get it over with.Instead people got to keep going back all their lives for temporary relief.This is no cure and boarderlines robbery.Why not teach people the truth that their problems are from muscle imbalance.Balance the muscle and they will push you bones in place.Chiros answer this what causes herniated discs?you guys are no different then a bunch of criminals who dont take responsabilty for their actions.rob as many as you can!
interested777 3 years ago
interested777, you need to change your username to knucklehead911!!! If you're going to take part in a big boy conversation, you need to back to school to learn what you are talking about, instead of spouting foolishness on a blog. Stress causes the problems, until you live a stress-free life, you need to get adjusted. Now, wipe the spittle off of your mouth and read some chiropractic literature to get both sides of the story before giving off your ignorance.
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
you never answered the questions chirdocjoe.I got big skull racking knuckles.People like you cant run with the big dogs when you pee like a puppy.How many people have you robbed lately 15 guys an hour.
interested777 3 years ago
Have you gone back to school yet to take part in this conversation??? The biggest knuckle you got is the one on your head!!! I don't feel the need to educate you. Look up the answers yourself, maybe you'll learn something, sunshine!!!
chirodocjoe 3 years ago
you will get yours someday when you rob the wrong family
interested777 3 years ago
See my response below. When 97-99% of our patients get better, how can you call it robbing people??? You're so delusional, how do you even function on a day-to-day basis?
chirodocjoe 3 years ago