i agree with you , i have always held my word is great import ,.. however, when banks change rates on people and the government changes the worth of their wages, they are not in the agreement they started in anyway for reasons beyond their control. so opting to walk away would be become an option even for a man like me.
it's part of the contract so it's not immoral, but the bank just creates 90% of the money it gives you on the back of the dollar and everyone who uses it, basically makes you promise you will work to produce that money for the system.
I think that it was the persons fault for biting off more than they can chew and being greedy... Just because you can afford a half a million dollar house doesn't mean that you are forced to get it... Most people fall into that trap instead of living in a cheaper house that is comfortable and stable... The key is to save, just in case for whatever reason you can't make the bill from your job you still have money in the bank to pay for that month or more...
Being born in to a debt system... while it works for a while it's unsustainable. A ponzi scheme where you are born in to the bottom, and if your lucky you move your way up. Except that no one tells you the truth, everyone is clawing their way up the pyramid, and if you break their rules you end up in prison or dead.
They are trying to polish the turd known as the fed and everything they do now just makes it stink worse.
@DEMCAD2 Dem it used to be very immoral to walk away from a mortgage. It is not any more. The banks broke the social compact when they made so many bad loans. I personally saw WaMu agents drawing up dozens of $500,000 loans for illegal alien unskilled day laborers who had no change of ever making their payments. Due to this on a massive scale, property values have crashed. So why not walk away when the lender is trying to destroy you? Fortunately I have no debts to anyone or anything.
@DEMCAD2 Dem it used to be very immoral to walk away from a mortgage. It is not any more. The banks broke the social compact when they made so many bad loans. I personally saw WaMu agents drawing up dozens of $500,000 loans for illegal alien unskilled day laborers who had no chance of ever making their payments. Due to this on a massive scale, property values have crashed. So why not walk away when the lender is trying to destroy you? Fortunately I have no debts to anyone or anything.
@UVpirate "Let's just agree to disagree" Usually people say that when they can no longer justify an argument.
"One day when you lose $250.000 because your bank gave every moron in town a loan and they foreclosed, then we'll talk." That day will never come, because I will never INVEST in a home. I think it's a bad risk. And people who engage in the risk should deal with the consequences.
Yes Demcad as you said it was my responsibility to pay you back. I would pay someone back based on principal. It may take me longer then planned but I would pay the debt. What can you do though when you lose your job do to no fault of your own. I would work something out with you Reggie give you what I could. Banks though are unwilling to work things out. Well my small bank does it helped my brother but the big banks are inhuman.
they will take all you will offer. and keep taking on late fees and intrest. they are so use to bending us over. that our ass or now tapped out. so what do they do they pass the lube of bail out. and the reach around of stimulus packages but NO MEANS NO!!!
sorry for the voguarity i hate the enslavement of the amercan people.
Honestly yes they got the money twice over. They get paid off via the tax dollars. They made bad decisions then sold the bad decisions as toxic assets and then passed those frauds off to us the tax payer.
I dont know about that, but I feel like Americans were set up, this was done from the highest levels, none on top are getting hurt at all, Ive seen the poor people being pushed out of their homes because of inflation, then deflation, just as Tomas Jefferson predicted.
we were set up and attacked. by our own government to make us give up our rights for comfort. i see this done all the time in union meeting. and people dont want freedom they want peace to sit back get fat and not work.
A mortgage is a collateral loan, similar to a car loan. The lender (bank) places a lien on the property (house, car, etc.) to protect itself from non-payment of the loan. When you have a collateral loan, you promise (give your word) to either make the payments OR give the property to the lender. Walking away from a mortgage is choosing to give the property to the lender, as agreed on. You have not broken your word.
also it depends on who you are doing it to..if you are breaking your promise to people that matters to you then that's a no no...but if you are dealing with greedy bankers then the answer should be simple...
morality is how you treat the person you dont know or care about. there are ill side effect for spiting in the face of frends. and its that which keeps you in line. if you see them hurt its wrong. but if you dont have to then its ok. your choice is based on the fact that it is the easy choice. morality is makeing the hard choices because there the right ones.
In my case I would say walking away is not immoral. The neigborhood is getting worse and value is upside down..I've already held my contract for over 6 years and they've made plenty of interests off of me already. The way I see it there's no way I am going to be able to sell this place unless if I win the lotto to pay off the condo...the other option is to wait 10 years or more in hoping to make 10K. Life is short man...choice is easy.
If that's the case, and you're just walking away from your home simply because it's become less advantageous to keep paying on a house that is worth less than what you owe, then I think it is immoral and deeply so. Personally, I think it should be illegal to walk away from your home simply because it's not as good of an investment as you thought or because the housing market has changed for the worst. The fact is, you made an agreement to pay, and you should pay as long as you're able.
lenders can sue you to get there funds. and i agree. it will distory your credit. and people dont walk away from car loans when they devalue the auto.
Reggie, it's a good question, and I think you realize that the answer is somewhat obvious. Is there more to it, in terms of details and overall motivations, than simply breaking your word? Yeah, but it's still a case of you saying one thing and then deciding to do something different simply based on inconvenient circumstance. Walking away implies that you aren't being forced to stop paying, but you're making that choice because it's no longer as advantageous for you to keep paying. CONT'D
I'm an American here in Europe for healthcare. Here, your written word is solid. It means everything. You cannot declare personal bankruptcy, and your children and grandchildren will inherit your debts. I've avoided the mortgage issue altogether twice by paying full, in cash, one for an apartment in New York City in 1986, the other for an apartment in Paris-Saint-Denis, France, in 1994. I live debt-free and frugally. The highest salary I ever earned was 25,000 dollars a year in the USA.
The apartment in New York City was a J-51. It was created in 1983, and I put myself on the waiting list and had to wait until 1986. I had to pay 6000 dollars in cash and be low-middle-income and prove it. The charges were about 400 dollars a month. I was forbidden to sell it at a profit, but abandoned it in 1994. Long story. Visited Sain-Denis, liked it, looked in LE PARISIEN, saw an ad for an apt. here. Paid a 6000 USD cash bribe, got it for 84 grand. Abandoned, bad condition.
Morality only exists between real living human beings. For example it's immoral to kill a human being yet we eat meat all the time and those animals have to be killed. The corporations that make these loans aren't human beings. They're a legal construct that have been given the rights of human beings. These constructs have no morality of their own and they are mostly free to break laws without punishment. Morality doesn't apply to corporations if you ask me.
2. So basically, yes if it made economic sense for me to do so, I'd walk away from my mortgage in a second. If however my mortgage was being carried by a real human being instead of a faceless inhuman machine, I'd do everything possible to keep my word and pay the mortgage. If I simply couldn't do it due to a job loss or whatever, I'd contact him or her and get the property transferred back to them with as little expense as possible. A "quit claim" deed would be the way to do it.
I studied corporate accountability in my MBA program, and they must do what is morally correct, ethically correct. Many do not, and they generally do so with impunity, these legal constructs.
I disagree. If a corporation takes a moral action that hurts the bottom line, they can be sued by their share holders. So the way corporations are constructed, they have to be basically amoral. If I'm going to act with morality toward anything I have to have a reasonable expectation that I will also be treated with morality. Morality is suspended when these corporations pressure appraisers to inflate value and create a bubble. If that bubble pops I wouldn't stay in an underwater loan.
Ya discussions like this challenge your beliefs and let you rehash them to see if they are really as valid as you thought. As Jack spearco at the survival podcast says "it's ok to believe something but know why you believe it"
So yes, if a corporation or groups of corporations act like sociopaths then it's ok to treat them the same way.
In fact if I was working on a Monsanto truck I might be tempted to fix what I was fixing but loosen something else so it will fail without causing injury
That way in some small fashion, I'd be helping to nibble away at an evil giant that's causing damage all over the world.
Electrical issues would be easy to create. I could create an intermittent electrical issue that would be likely to cost Monsanto 3 thousand dollars to fix. Ha! They may be able to terrorize farmers into caving in and using GMO seeds but they can't fight little guys like me, and if there are enough of us, we can take a corporation like that down.
Not me. I'll never be a giant at anything. I'm just a simple blue-collar working man.
Generally the most harm I can do to these corporations is what I don't do. For example I get nearly all my groceries from co-ops rather than wall street owned corporations. I live close to work so I buy very little gas. I bought a low taxed inexpensive condo and am working to get it paid off so I can escape the debt slave gerbil wheel. But you know all this since we've discussed it before.
morality has propose. but most of us have forgoten what that was. we reward the inmoral. and let the moral become victoms. base laws to protect the crook.
sad time we live. if we want to live in a moral world we must make it one. and walking away from homes is moral. lenders take a risk when lending. and it is agread that if you dont pay lender takes the home. the lender buys the home then you buy it from them. and if you dont make payments they keep home. then resell at full price.
This is very good! Very, very good discussion DEMCAD. Also, thanks for editorializing this to get to the points. 5 Stars.
Unfortunately I know people who have done this. And I know people who could've but didn't. I know, it's not so cut and dried. But if you're in the military they teach accountability. It is a moral issue. The question is: did they throw in the towel prematurely? The old fashioned way would be the moral approach until the very last straw.
I paid off my debts slowly but surely, even though I ended up homeless. I have no children now, but we did have to end a pregnancy due to lack of healthcare in the USA.
In New York State, I know of a case where the wife ended up homeless, and she had to pay alimony to an ex-husband who'd been sponging off her for years. And he stopped having sex with her the day they got married. She hung on for 12 years before the divorce, giving him more than half of their assets just to get him out of her life. He threatened to kill her, too.
you haven't cheated any one you simply could not up hold your end of the contract!! and will have to pay the consequences of ending the contract ie no house losing all money invested and killing credit rating for future loans!!
the banks are not worried about morals when they are taking money stolen from us with force by our government!!
i think it's more a matter of people making bad decisions!! the house might not be worth much now but who ever buys it cheap will make a profit!!
The same banks that are trying to screw us over. My thoughts on that is sometimes situations change. To me its like somebody saying somethin like "I'm goin to mow the lawn tomorrow" then the next day its pours down raining all day long lol
I don't see it as immoral. It's simply an option in the game. By now, everybody should be aware that this government and society is run like a big game. Those who understand the rules, do ok. Those who don't suffer. That's why lawyers are paid so much; because they know the rules. The bank takes a risk by lending you meny for a mortgage, but they don't have any money. It's just keystrokes on a computer. They make their money off of interest on your loan. Foreclosure? They lose.
It is not right to break your word Demcad you are right. Yet You also have a moral obligation to your family which decision is more important or moral to the family, walk away? or destroy the family?
Concidering that large Banks such as Bank of America make it policy to sell off your Mortgage agreement to foreign investors to make a little more profit, I would have no regret if I decided to walk away from a house that was tied to such a bank.
Many people were stupid to go into mortgages, that they eventually wouldn't be able to afford. But the Gov't was immoral to Allow Wall St to manipulate and create a huge bubble that everyone Knew would burst eventually. They did it for a fast buck. Walking away from a financial prison is smart; also good for America. Once the market totally collapses, other Americans will buy houses for a song, minus the bubble. Paying off foreign suckers with tax dollars was the most immoral thing of all!
I think it's immoral for the banks to give these people loans that never could afford the house in the first place. Morgan Stanley and all the big guys do it all the time. Dont waste your savings trying to hold on to an unaffordable house. Run.
Whenever you give your word, it's always a matter of character. And again, just because the bank engages in immoral activity, it does not give you a pass to do so (without blame.)
I have a moral obligation to raise and do what in the best interest of my family. There are no morals in business today. Thats what this whole mess is all about. Sorry, but dont let people who are struggling to pay a mortgage they cant afford and letting family starve over MORALS is not what this is all about. Morals left business along time ago. Is its morally corrrect to raise credit card rates on people that did nothing wrong? Dont mix morals and business, it's like mixing water and oil.
i see the actions banks making liar loans as fraud pure and simple. They KNEW they were bad but could write the paper, collect fees and sell those loans to freddie and fannie without risk. Its no different than a used car dealer that patches up a clunker long enough to get it off the lot.
I think if someone can afford the house or if they borrowed a ton of money and can't pay it back then it is immoral to walk away. Someone in our neighboorhood borrowed a ton of money and then walked away as the house lost value. The house was totally paid off too. They were a bunch of bums.
It is the responsibility of the lender to lend to people who can afford a house. So even though they break the agreement part of it is on the lenders.
You signature is a promise of payment. You intended to pay it you do nothing immoral when you choose to walk away because you can not pay. If you can pay and walk away then it is immoral.
Well, that's like me borrowing money from you and later saying that I don't have the means of paying you back. And therefore, it's not immoral for me to not pay you back because I don't have the means of doing so. But it was my responsibility to make sure that I could pay you back in the first place.
but the bank holds the house agenst your loan. and if you dont pay they own the house. its like if i pawn a gun and cant pay back the loan the shop resells my gun. its the same thing. but people are still buying guns not homes.
the banks plan to foredose on homes. thats why the ARM is so extream. 5% jumps to 23% just because they can.
and lending to those people who cant afford to pay back. the got greedy and shot them and us in the foot. we should let them fail. damb bailouts.
I think it's more complex than simply breaking your word. It's a contract that was agreed to under a certain set of circumstances such as: the house is worth this amount, I earn this amount, the monthly payment is this amount. As all of those variables change, it may not be in your best interest or int he bank's best interest for you to attempt to continue under the new circumstances. Ultimately, it isn't a moral decision, but a financial and legal one.
"It's a contract that was agreed to under a certain set of circumstances such as: the house is worth this amount, I earn this amount, the monthly payment is this amount."
The circumstances are irrelevant if you sign the contract, because by doing so, you are making a promise. It is up to you to plan around changing circumstances.
I think it's immoral for banks to sell houses for more than they're worth. To take our money and our childrens money. To rape our country of our wealth and our jobs.
So, while it might be immoral to walk away from a mortgage, i think it would be more immoral to support these banks by paying the mortgage.
doing what you agreed to may not always be the right thing.
for example. you join the police force. your intent is to protect people and follow your chiefs orders. you take an oath to that effect.
a dicator takes over, orders the police to round up and kill people. Are you morally obligated to follow orders like you agreed, or to disobey and do the right thing?
That''s a bad apology, because police take an oath to uphold the constitution, so the dictator would be in breach of the agreement between officer and state. The cop would not be breaking his or her word if he or she disobeyed orders. In fact, he or she would have to disobey the orders to maintain his word.
You're right, it is a bad analogy, however, the message that doing what you may have agreed to under certain circumstances may not always be correct if the circumstances change.
Don't get me wrong, your word is your bond, but life is unpredictable, and the world has changed, we must take everything into account.
Due to the financial terrorism of the elite upon the american people - I'd say that it would not be immoral to buy a mortgage KNOWING in advance that you have no intention to pay...all is fair in love and war.
I lost my job due to the banks greed and subsequent collapse of the credit market...not because i was bad at what i did, not because or managers were terrible managers but because our clients were unable to get money to pay for our services....i dont feel any regret about someone telling the banks to pound sand..
it is not immoral to walk away from a mortgage. Under normal circumstances it is an unfortunate but necessarry business decision. Under the current circumstances i see it as an act of patriotism...
Breaking your word is not always immoral. If you bought the home and contracted a loan in good faith (being you intended to pay) but circumstances changed to the point that you cannot fullfill the contract you are not morally or legally obligated to continue the contract.
banks wrote loans to people they knew were bad from the beginning. good faith?
Laws in america indicate that failure to pay debt is not an issue of morality. there are no debters prisons and bankruptcy is allowed.
Intending to pay is not good enough. That's like borrowing money with the intend to pay, but not actually do it.
"banks wrote loans to people they knew were bad from the beginning. good faith?" Just because the banks are doing something, that doesn't mean that I should.
banks and individuals accept the notion of risk.;..it is calculated and figured into interest and fees....so basically it is insured by other borrowers...the only thing affected when someone defaults under normal circumstances is profit.
Banks have the money and the power in the relationship between borrower and lender...parent/child. Banks had a duty to securitize the loans, No one made the banks make loans they knew were bad. The greater your power the more your responsiblity.
I reject the notion that a homeowner is like a child. If you don't like the deal, simply refuse to sign it. Otherwise, if you sign the contract, you have a moral obligation to honor it.
i concede that the homeowner is like a child but the homeowner/borrower is not equal to the banker...the banker has the money, the banker decides if the borrower gets the money, the banker has title to the property as collateral...the banker can refuse to negotiate better terms and demand payment in full prior to the end of the contractural agreement if they choose to do so. If the borrower defaults they lose all they have invested ..even their car insurance goes up.
I see it EVERY day. Then again I do foreclosures for a living. I dont think its a morality issue for 90% of the ppl I talk with. Most are looking to try anything they can to keep the home & their word. But if it's an issue of owning the big house or feeding their child. Well IMO the it's the moral ones that walk away from the big house & feed their child. The immoral ones are those that dont pay for months on end & wont leave on their own.
A person enters into a contract thus making a promise of sorts. If they break that contract they break their promise. To me, it's an immoral thing to do.
My house lost about $40,000 in value in 2009 and I know people that are in even worse shape. I don't think it is a question of morality for some, it is more a question of economics. It's a hard decision either way. Right now, around me, one in six houses in foreclosure. In times like these, I can't blame anyone for walking away to save themselves and their families.
It IS a question of morality, but you don't want to admit it do you? You don't want to think of yourself as a immoral person, so you make up false reasons to justify your actions.
You foolishly make the assumption that this is what I am doing. I was stating an opinion based on what I see around me. However, if I decided to walk away from my mortgage I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Maybe it is a moral issue for you, but not for me. I don't define myself by the opinions of others or the "moral majority"
its a jerk move, but depends on your moral structure. if hitler can morally justify killing a few million jews, then i assume people can in ditching houses. do what you can to survive, and may god be with you.
why i think people are justified in walking away.
i agree with you , i have always held my word is great import ,.. however, when banks change rates on people and the government changes the worth of their wages, they are not in the agreement they started in anyway for reasons beyond their control. so opting to walk away would be become an option even for a man like me.
MrMentalflossed 1 year ago
Honor is a rare thing to come by nowadays
crass770 1 year ago
it's part of the contract so it's not immoral, but the bank just creates 90% of the money it gives you on the back of the dollar and everyone who uses it, basically makes you promise you will work to produce that money for the system.
Gitanu07 1 year ago
I think that it was the persons fault for biting off more than they can chew and being greedy... Just because you can afford a half a million dollar house doesn't mean that you are forced to get it... Most people fall into that trap instead of living in a cheaper house that is comfortable and stable... The key is to save, just in case for whatever reason you can't make the bill from your job you still have money in the bank to pay for that month or more...
TacticalAce89 1 year ago
Considering the blatant fraud being perpetrated by the banks I say it's moral. If you are being lied to how can morality apply?
kosai19 1 year ago
You know what else is immoral? Usury is.
Slavery is also immoral.
Being born in to a debt system... while it works for a while it's unsustainable. A ponzi scheme where you are born in to the bottom, and if your lucky you move your way up. Except that no one tells you the truth, everyone is clawing their way up the pyramid, and if you break their rules you end up in prison or dead.
They are trying to polish the turd known as the fed and everything they do now just makes it stink worse.
DigitalSkyline 2 years ago
@DigitalSkyline - True indeed.
comedicstuff 1 year ago
Is it immoral to walk away from your porsche?
judutchinski 2 years ago
@judutchinski - Only if it will result in a loss of pussy.
comedicstuff 1 year ago
I think I'll start more discussions like this one.
DEMCAD2 2 years ago
@DEMCAD2 Dem it used to be very immoral to walk away from a mortgage. It is not any more. The banks broke the social compact when they made so many bad loans. I personally saw WaMu agents drawing up dozens of $500,000 loans for illegal alien unskilled day laborers who had no change of ever making their payments. Due to this on a massive scale, property values have crashed. So why not walk away when the lender is trying to destroy you? Fortunately I have no debts to anyone or anything.
Albacorewing 1 year ago
@DEMCAD2 Dem it used to be very immoral to walk away from a mortgage. It is not any more. The banks broke the social compact when they made so many bad loans. I personally saw WaMu agents drawing up dozens of $500,000 loans for illegal alien unskilled day laborers who had no chance of ever making their payments. Due to this on a massive scale, property values have crashed. So why not walk away when the lender is trying to destroy you? Fortunately I have no debts to anyone or anything.
Albacorewing 1 year ago
@UVpirate "Let's just agree to disagree" Usually people say that when they can no longer justify an argument.
"One day when you lose $250.000 because your bank gave every moron in town a loan and they foreclosed, then we'll talk." That day will never come, because I will never INVEST in a home. I think it's a bad risk. And people who engage in the risk should deal with the consequences.
DEMCAD2 2 years ago
Yes Demcad as you said it was my responsibility to pay you back. I would pay someone back based on principal. It may take me longer then planned but I would pay the debt. What can you do though when you lose your job do to no fault of your own. I would work something out with you Reggie give you what I could. Banks though are unwilling to work things out. Well my small bank does it helped my brother but the big banks are inhuman.
jrnault77 2 years ago
they will take all you will offer. and keep taking on late fees and intrest. they are so use to bending us over. that our ass or now tapped out. so what do they do they pass the lube of bail out. and the reach around of stimulus packages but NO MEANS NO!!!
sorry for the voguarity i hate the enslavement of the amercan people.
stay brave stay strong and never back down
MrSaber152 2 years ago
Honestly yes they got the money twice over. They get paid off via the tax dollars. They made bad decisions then sold the bad decisions as toxic assets and then passed those frauds off to us the tax payer.
jrnault77 2 years ago
I dont know about that, but I feel like Americans were set up, this was done from the highest levels, none on top are getting hurt at all, Ive seen the poor people being pushed out of their homes because of inflation, then deflation, just as Tomas Jefferson predicted.
phantomcharger 2 years ago
we were set up and attacked. by our own government to make us give up our rights for comfort. i see this done all the time in union meeting. and people dont want freedom they want peace to sit back get fat and not work.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
@MrSaber152
You know it!
phantomcharger 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"I let a friend borrow $1000 during x-mas. He has a moral obligation to pay me back. If he doesn't and I sue, it's now a legal issue."
Yes, it becomes a legal issue in additional to the moral issue.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
"People break contracts all the time. ALL THE TIME."
Men hit women all of the time. People engage in a lot of immoral behavior in our society, but that doesn't justify their actions.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
A mortgage is a collateral loan, similar to a car loan. The lender (bank) places a lien on the property (house, car, etc.) to protect itself from non-payment of the loan. When you have a collateral loan, you promise (give your word) to either make the payments OR give the property to the lender. Walking away from a mortgage is choosing to give the property to the lender, as agreed on. You have not broken your word.
hawknest01 2 years ago 3
also it depends on who you are doing it to..if you are breaking your promise to people that matters to you then that's a no no...but if you are dealing with greedy bankers then the answer should be simple...
bc5620 2 years ago 2
morality is how you treat the person you dont know or care about. there are ill side effect for spiting in the face of frends. and its that which keeps you in line. if you see them hurt its wrong. but if you dont have to then its ok. your choice is based on the fact that it is the easy choice. morality is makeing the hard choices because there the right ones.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
In my case I would say walking away is not immoral. The neigborhood is getting worse and value is upside down..I've already held my contract for over 6 years and they've made plenty of interests off of me already. The way I see it there's no way I am going to be able to sell this place unless if I win the lotto to pay off the condo...the other option is to wait 10 years or more in hoping to make 10K. Life is short man...choice is easy.
bc5620 2 years ago 2
Comment removed
veritasfiles 2 years ago
If that's the case, and you're just walking away from your home simply because it's become less advantageous to keep paying on a house that is worth less than what you owe, then I think it is immoral and deeply so. Personally, I think it should be illegal to walk away from your home simply because it's not as good of an investment as you thought or because the housing market has changed for the worst. The fact is, you made an agreement to pay, and you should pay as long as you're able.
veritasfiles 2 years ago
lenders can sue you to get there funds. and i agree. it will distory your credit. and people dont walk away from car loans when they devalue the auto.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
Reggie, it's a good question, and I think you realize that the answer is somewhat obvious. Is there more to it, in terms of details and overall motivations, than simply breaking your word? Yeah, but it's still a case of you saying one thing and then deciding to do something different simply based on inconvenient circumstance. Walking away implies that you aren't being forced to stop paying, but you're making that choice because it's no longer as advantageous for you to keep paying. CONT'D
veritasfiles 2 years ago
I'm an American here in Europe for healthcare. Here, your written word is solid. It means everything. You cannot declare personal bankruptcy, and your children and grandchildren will inherit your debts. I've avoided the mortgage issue altogether twice by paying full, in cash, one for an apartment in New York City in 1986, the other for an apartment in Paris-Saint-Denis, France, in 1994. I live debt-free and frugally. The highest salary I ever earned was 25,000 dollars a year in the USA.
slobomotion 2 years ago
way to go. how did you do that? those are not cheap places to live.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
The apartment in New York City was a J-51. It was created in 1983, and I put myself on the waiting list and had to wait until 1986. I had to pay 6000 dollars in cash and be low-middle-income and prove it. The charges were about 400 dollars a month. I was forbidden to sell it at a profit, but abandoned it in 1994. Long story. Visited Sain-Denis, liked it, looked in LE PARISIEN, saw an ad for an apt. here. Paid a 6000 USD cash bribe, got it for 84 grand. Abandoned, bad condition.
slobomotion 2 years ago
No.
iloveterriers 2 years ago
Morality only exists between real living human beings. For example it's immoral to kill a human being yet we eat meat all the time and those animals have to be killed. The corporations that make these loans aren't human beings. They're a legal construct that have been given the rights of human beings. These constructs have no morality of their own and they are mostly free to break laws without punishment. Morality doesn't apply to corporations if you ask me.
vention4wh 2 years ago
2. So basically, yes if it made economic sense for me to do so, I'd walk away from my mortgage in a second. If however my mortgage was being carried by a real human being instead of a faceless inhuman machine, I'd do everything possible to keep my word and pay the mortgage. If I simply couldn't do it due to a job loss or whatever, I'd contact him or her and get the property transferred back to them with as little expense as possible. A "quit claim" deed would be the way to do it.
vention4wh 2 years ago 2
so its ok to steal from a group but not to steal one man?
MrSaber152 2 years ago
I studied corporate accountability in my MBA program, and they must do what is morally correct, ethically correct. Many do not, and they generally do so with impunity, these legal constructs.
slobomotion 2 years ago
If morality doesn't apply to corporations, it should be easy to disregard morality in other cases. And if that's the case, morality is meaningless.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
DEMCAD
I disagree. If a corporation takes a moral action that hurts the bottom line, they can be sued by their share holders. So the way corporations are constructed, they have to be basically amoral. If I'm going to act with morality toward anything I have to have a reasonable expectation that I will also be treated with morality. Morality is suspended when these corporations pressure appraisers to inflate value and create a bubble. If that bubble pops I wouldn't stay in an underwater loan.
vention4wh 2 years ago
So what you're saying is that if a corporation behaves like sociopath, it's okay for you to behave in that manner?
lol (I love these discussions)
DEMCAD 2 years ago
DEMCAD
Ya discussions like this challenge your beliefs and let you rehash them to see if they are really as valid as you thought. As Jack spearco at the survival podcast says "it's ok to believe something but know why you believe it"
So yes, if a corporation or groups of corporations act like sociopaths then it's ok to treat them the same way.
In fact if I was working on a Monsanto truck I might be tempted to fix what I was fixing but loosen something else so it will fail without causing injury
vention4wh 2 years ago
DEMCAD
That way in some small fashion, I'd be helping to nibble away at an evil giant that's causing damage all over the world.
Electrical issues would be easy to create. I could create an intermittent electrical issue that would be likely to cost Monsanto 3 thousand dollars to fix. Ha! They may be able to terrorize farmers into caving in and using GMO seeds but they can't fight little guys like me, and if there are enough of us, we can take a corporation like that down.
vention4wh 2 years ago
"I'd be helping to nibble away at an evil giant that's causing damage all over the world."
Of you're not careful, behaving like the corporation may turn you into an evil giant. lol
DEMCAD2 2 years ago
Not me. I'll never be a giant at anything. I'm just a simple blue-collar working man.
Generally the most harm I can do to these corporations is what I don't do. For example I get nearly all my groceries from co-ops rather than wall street owned corporations. I live close to work so I buy very little gas. I bought a low taxed inexpensive condo and am working to get it paid off so I can escape the debt slave gerbil wheel. But you know all this since we've discussed it before.
vention4wh 2 years ago
morality has propose. but most of us have forgoten what that was. we reward the inmoral. and let the moral become victoms. base laws to protect the crook.
sad time we live. if we want to live in a moral world we must make it one. and walking away from homes is moral. lenders take a risk when lending. and it is agread that if you dont pay lender takes the home. the lender buys the home then you buy it from them. and if you dont make payments they keep home. then resell at full price.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
This is very good! Very, very good discussion DEMCAD. Also, thanks for editorializing this to get to the points. 5 Stars.
Unfortunately I know people who have done this. And I know people who could've but didn't. I know, it's not so cut and dried. But if you're in the military they teach accountability. It is a moral issue. The question is: did they throw in the towel prematurely? The old fashioned way would be the moral approach until the very last straw.
judutchinski 2 years ago
I paid off my debts slowly but surely, even though I ended up homeless. I have no children now, but we did have to end a pregnancy due to lack of healthcare in the USA.
slobomotion 2 years ago
most men kiss their wife goodbye when they leave their house
All men kiss their house goodbye when they leave their wife
1989kirby 2 years ago
In New York State, I know of a case where the wife ended up homeless, and she had to pay alimony to an ex-husband who'd been sponging off her for years. And he stopped having sex with her the day they got married. She hung on for 12 years before the divorce, giving him more than half of their assets just to get him out of her life. He threatened to kill her, too.
slobomotion 2 years ago
you haven't cheated any one you simply could not up hold your end of the contract!! and will have to pay the consequences of ending the contract ie no house losing all money invested and killing credit rating for future loans!!
the banks are not worried about morals when they are taking money stolen from us with force by our government!!
i think it's more a matter of people making bad decisions!! the house might not be worth much now but who ever buys it cheap will make a profit!!
carveawoodeneye 2 years ago 4
The same banks that are trying to screw us over. My thoughts on that is sometimes situations change. To me its like somebody saying somethin like "I'm goin to mow the lawn tomorrow" then the next day its pours down raining all day long lol
BigZeb5 2 years ago
I don't see it as immoral. It's simply an option in the game. By now, everybody should be aware that this government and society is run like a big game. Those who understand the rules, do ok. Those who don't suffer. That's why lawyers are paid so much; because they know the rules. The bank takes a risk by lending you meny for a mortgage, but they don't have any money. It's just keystrokes on a computer. They make their money off of interest on your loan. Foreclosure? They lose.
misawayub 2 years ago
It is not right to break your word Demcad you are right. Yet You also have a moral obligation to your family which decision is more important or moral to the family, walk away? or destroy the family?
jrnault77 2 years ago
Concidering that large Banks such as Bank of America make it policy to sell off your Mortgage agreement to foreign investors to make a little more profit, I would have no regret if I decided to walk away from a house that was tied to such a bank.
ArgosSmith2009 2 years ago 2
Many people were stupid to go into mortgages, that they eventually wouldn't be able to afford. But the Gov't was immoral to Allow Wall St to manipulate and create a huge bubble that everyone Knew would burst eventually. They did it for a fast buck. Walking away from a financial prison is smart; also good for America. Once the market totally collapses, other Americans will buy houses for a song, minus the bubble. Paying off foreign suckers with tax dollars was the most immoral thing of all!
johnwilsonriley 2 years ago
Don't sweat it.
sonnybrakes 2 years ago
I think it's immoral for the banks to give these people loans that never could afford the house in the first place. Morgan Stanley and all the big guys do it all the time. Dont waste your savings trying to hold on to an unaffordable house. Run.
dollar4silver 2 years ago
I hear what you're saying. But it seems like a justification. You didn't answer the central question. Is it immoral to break your word?
DEMCAD 2 years ago
@DEMCAD No morals are involved, it's just business. Just ask all the bailed out banks.
dollar4silver 2 years ago
Whenever you give your word, it's always a matter of character. And again, just because the bank engages in immoral activity, it does not give you a pass to do so (without blame.)
DEMCAD 2 years ago
I have a moral obligation to raise and do what in the best interest of my family. There are no morals in business today. Thats what this whole mess is all about. Sorry, but dont let people who are struggling to pay a mortgage they cant afford and letting family starve over MORALS is not what this is all about. Morals left business along time ago. Is its morally corrrect to raise credit card rates on people that did nothing wrong? Dont mix morals and business, it's like mixing water and oil.
dollar4silver 2 years ago
i see the actions banks making liar loans as fraud pure and simple. They KNEW they were bad but could write the paper, collect fees and sell those loans to freddie and fannie without risk. Its no different than a used car dealer that patches up a clunker long enough to get it off the lot.
centervilletn 2 years ago 2
I think if someone can afford the house or if they borrowed a ton of money and can't pay it back then it is immoral to walk away. Someone in our neighboorhood borrowed a ton of money and then walked away as the house lost value. The house was totally paid off too. They were a bunch of bums.
skyding8962 2 years ago
It is the responsibility of the lender to lend to people who can afford a house. So even though they break the agreement part of it is on the lenders.
jrnault77 2 years ago
But the question remains, is it immoral to break your word?
DEMCAD 2 years ago
You signature is a promise of payment. You intended to pay it you do nothing immoral when you choose to walk away because you can not pay. If you can pay and walk away then it is immoral.
jrnault77 2 years ago
Well, that's like me borrowing money from you and later saying that I don't have the means of paying you back. And therefore, it's not immoral for me to not pay you back because I don't have the means of doing so. But it was my responsibility to make sure that I could pay you back in the first place.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
but the bank holds the house agenst your loan. and if you dont pay they own the house. its like if i pawn a gun and cant pay back the loan the shop resells my gun. its the same thing. but people are still buying guns not homes.
the banks plan to foredose on homes. thats why the ARM is so extream. 5% jumps to 23% just because they can.
and lending to those people who cant afford to pay back. the got greedy and shot them and us in the foot. we should let them fail. damb bailouts.
MrSaber152 2 years ago
I think it's more complex than simply breaking your word. It's a contract that was agreed to under a certain set of circumstances such as: the house is worth this amount, I earn this amount, the monthly payment is this amount. As all of those variables change, it may not be in your best interest or int he bank's best interest for you to attempt to continue under the new circumstances. Ultimately, it isn't a moral decision, but a financial and legal one.
veganburgh 2 years ago
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@veganburgh
"It's a contract that was agreed to under a certain set of circumstances such as: the house is worth this amount, I earn this amount, the monthly payment is this amount."
The circumstances are irrelevant if you sign the contract, because by doing so, you are making a promise. It is up to you to plan around changing circumstances.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
is it immoral to turn in a car that you can no longer aford?
MrSaber152 2 years ago
I think it's immoral for banks to sell houses for more than they're worth. To take our money and our childrens money. To rape our country of our wealth and our jobs.
So, while it might be immoral to walk away from a mortgage, i think it would be more immoral to support these banks by paying the mortgage.
AncientLegacy 2 years ago
But does two wrongs make a right?
DEMCAD 2 years ago
doing what you agreed to may not always be the right thing.
for example. you join the police force. your intent is to protect people and follow your chiefs orders. you take an oath to that effect.
a dicator takes over, orders the police to round up and kill people. Are you morally obligated to follow orders like you agreed, or to disobey and do the right thing?
AncientLegacy 2 years ago
In this case, you have to do the right thing.
slobomotion 2 years ago
That''s a bad apology, because police take an oath to uphold the constitution, so the dictator would be in breach of the agreement between officer and state. The cop would not be breaking his or her word if he or she disobeyed orders. In fact, he or she would have to disobey the orders to maintain his word.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
You're right, it is a bad analogy, however, the message that doing what you may have agreed to under certain circumstances may not always be correct if the circumstances change.
Don't get me wrong, your word is your bond, but life is unpredictable, and the world has changed, we must take everything into account.
AncientLegacy 2 years ago
There are always exceptions to the rule, but signing a mortgage is not one of them.
DEMCAD2 2 years ago
Due to the financial terrorism of the elite upon the american people - I'd say that it would not be immoral to buy a mortgage KNOWING in advance that you have no intention to pay...all is fair in love and war.
highwaysong007 2 years ago
I lost my job due to the banks greed and subsequent collapse of the credit market...not because i was bad at what i did, not because or managers were terrible managers but because our clients were unable to get money to pay for our services....i dont feel any regret about someone telling the banks to pound sand..
centervilletn 2 years ago
it is not immoral to walk away from a mortgage. Under normal circumstances it is an unfortunate but necessarry business decision. Under the current circumstances i see it as an act of patriotism...
centervilletn 2 years ago 2
But walking away from a home means breaking your word. So how can it not be a moral issue?
How you justify it is irrelevant.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
Breaking your word is not always immoral. If you bought the home and contracted a loan in good faith (being you intended to pay) but circumstances changed to the point that you cannot fullfill the contract you are not morally or legally obligated to continue the contract.
banks wrote loans to people they knew were bad from the beginning. good faith?
Laws in america indicate that failure to pay debt is not an issue of morality. there are no debters prisons and bankruptcy is allowed.
centervilletn 2 years ago
Intending to pay is not good enough. That's like borrowing money with the intend to pay, but not actually do it.
"banks wrote loans to people they knew were bad from the beginning. good faith?" Just because the banks are doing something, that doesn't mean that I should.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
banks and individuals accept the notion of risk.;..it is calculated and figured into interest and fees....so basically it is insured by other borrowers...the only thing affected when someone defaults under normal circumstances is profit.
Banks have the money and the power in the relationship between borrower and lender...parent/child. Banks had a duty to securitize the loans, No one made the banks make loans they knew were bad. The greater your power the more your responsiblity.
centervilletn 2 years ago
I reject the notion that a homeowner is like a child. If you don't like the deal, simply refuse to sign it. Otherwise, if you sign the contract, you have a moral obligation to honor it.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
i concede that the homeowner is like a child but the homeowner/borrower is not equal to the banker...the banker has the money, the banker decides if the borrower gets the money, the banker has title to the property as collateral...the banker can refuse to negotiate better terms and demand payment in full prior to the end of the contractural agreement if they choose to do so. If the borrower defaults they lose all they have invested ..even their car insurance goes up.
centervilletn 2 years ago
Well, if the relationship between the bank and customer is uneven and unfair, the customer (homeowner) has the right to not sign the contract. :)
DEMCAD2 2 years ago
I see it EVERY day. Then again I do foreclosures for a living. I dont think its a morality issue for 90% of the ppl I talk with. Most are looking to try anything they can to keep the home & their word. But if it's an issue of owning the big house or feeding their child. Well IMO the it's the moral ones that walk away from the big house & feed their child. The immoral ones are those that dont pay for months on end & wont leave on their own.
RESET1776 2 years ago 2
A person enters into a contract thus making a promise of sorts. If they break that contract they break their promise. To me, it's an immoral thing to do.
101011a 2 years ago
My house lost about $40,000 in value in 2009 and I know people that are in even worse shape. I don't think it is a question of morality for some, it is more a question of economics. It's a hard decision either way. Right now, around me, one in six houses in foreclosure. In times like these, I can't blame anyone for walking away to save themselves and their families.
Maynardsat 2 years ago
It IS a question of morality, but you don't want to admit it do you? You don't want to think of yourself as a immoral person, so you make up false reasons to justify your actions.
Silveracity 2 years ago
You foolishly make the assumption that this is what I am doing. I was stating an opinion based on what I see around me. However, if I decided to walk away from my mortgage I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Maybe it is a moral issue for you, but not for me. I don't define myself by the opinions of others or the "moral majority"
Maynardsat 2 years ago 2
If you sign a contract, and then break it by choice, you are WRONG. You know it and I know it.
Silveracity 2 years ago
It's both a question of morality and economics. The economics does not remove the fact that you gave your word.
DEMCAD 2 years ago
its a jerk move, but depends on your moral structure. if hitler can morally justify killing a few million jews, then i assume people can in ditching houses. do what you can to survive, and may god be with you.
molemanlivesagain 2 years ago