its no surprise that streight guys have more respect for lesbiens then gay boys
I had freind who told me its ok for lesbiens to be gay but not guys and he used to pick on gay boys and make them cry and i know that men like to masterbait to lesbien porn which means that you lesbiens are seen as entertainment in the eys of men how do you gays and lesbiens feel about this GO ON NOW POST A COMMENT PLEASE
I don't think it is really something you can measure. We all have our struggles and we all have our triumphs but in the end it all really depends on how it is perceived by that individual person. You may see a "lipstick lesbian" get hit on by a guy and think nothing of it but the woman may get frustrated because she wants to look good but she gets unwanted attention. Same for an attractive gay man though. It is all speculation and no one could really say who has it worse. Just my opinion.
I think lesbians would have it easier. Though I have to ask how is it that a dudes that is all about females like straights dudes are, why is it we (guy gays) don't associate straight guys with femininity. It just seems so backwards....straight guys reject guys, and are much more comfortable with femininity, but for whatever reason, everyone wants to take the guy who is into men and try to feminise them.
Even though the "norm" is more lax in masculine girls than is to feminine boys, lesbians have some disadvantages in their openness to express their sexual desires.
If men express their sexual needs there is no problem whatsoever, it even could be seen as an award-able behavior by society, on the other hand, sexual needs in women are not a subject to talk about (specially in a christian society). As women "should" have sex for procreation not for pleasure, lesbians breaks two society "norms".
The social norms for women in society are much more lenient that those for men, gay or not. Gay is not a social norm to begin with, but for women to hug, hold hands, go to the bathroom together, what have you, that's all within the social norm for women. For men to do the same thing... no. Not knowing the ratio of closeted gay men to women, I can't really speak to that. But I do understand that it is much easier for women to be close to one another than for men.
I think it depends on where you grow up. To quote one of my uncles when it came to the topic of lesbians, "Anybody who likes ****** as much as I do can't be all that bad." On the other hand, gay men were despised, because they were seen as less than men.
I think that perhaps lesbians arent overly represented by the media because gay men are generally the ones fighting for acceptance.... I mean, lesbians are too but Ive always thought that gay men face the most ridicule and what not from their peers. Overall though, I dont think this is a straight foward topic but rather a multifaceted one.
i def agree with u on this. on the surface it seems like lesbians have it easier but i think it's just bc lesbian behaviors are more tolerated since female sexuality is so objectified by society that those behaviors became a turn on. but in the root of the issue of homosexuality, lesbians do have a tougher time dealing with prejudice bc childbearing is an issue, it makes it harder for them for sure. both sides have issues but i def believe that there are a higher number of closeted lesbians.
You say that the stereotyped gays on tv are accepted, but often I feel they are there as comic relief - and that people are laughing at the character. I sometimes feel like this is not acceptance. Accpetance is having characters who are not tired old stereotypes there for comic relief, but real relatable characters who aren't there just because of their sexuality.
Gay men have it WAY worse than lesbian sorry... People will except two girls kissing and holding hands, or showing lesbian scenes in movies and not make a big deal out of it, but if a man does it... OH ITS A BIG DEAL. Why you think its mainly Gay men commiting sucide and less lesbians? Because its harder to be a Gay man than to be a Gay women. We both got it bad but im sorry a lesbian is always put above gay men for some reason I will never understand u_u
I don't think our society is ready to have a gay male version of Ellen Degeneres or Rachel Maddow. People have a much more difficult time accepting that men are gay than they do accepting that women are lesbians. That being said, everybody's experience is different, so there's no way to say all gay men have a tougher time than all lesbians (or the opposite). So I mostly agree with your friend. Interesting points, however.
Where do you live that you don't see that many lesbians? Here in Cincinnati there is a strong lesbian community. And they are the ones, unlike gays, that dare to show PDA and hold hands in public.
I am gay myself and I wouldn't adventure to talk about how it is for lesbians. Why don't you meet some of them first?
@jacobyoutubification ... so out of the 2197 views you have now 2131 guys think your the most dreamy guy on the internet ;). I do agree with your view on the issue to some extent though and I never thought about it that way. I just didn't have time to do a long analytic comment. nor do I now. Maybe later :D
Continuing from where I left off, us gays and lesbians need to support each other, just like we need the the support from people outside of the gay/lesbian arena. Without support, we'll both have it hard. Hence, we should all be THERE for each other versus arguing about who has it worse........Show some love everyone.
I think gays and lesbians have a wide array of things they deal with, but you have to be in their specific shoes to understand it. As a gay man, I find that my experience since coming out 4 years ago has been MUCH easier than I expected. I partially think it has to do with where I live, but many of the friends I came out too already knew I was gay. Nevertheless, many gays and lesbians have it WAY harder than I do, & @ the end of the day, all I could advise is for us to support each other. =)
I think that lesbians are put down in the way they are used to sexualize things for men. They aren't taken as seriously as gay men, they are made into a joke. It's not fair to gay women.
I think the reason we don't really see lesbians in movies or tv shows is that it is socially less acceptable to make fun of women than to make fun of men, regardless of their sexual orientation. Notice in most commercials where there is a man and a woman, the man is usually being stupid, silly or wrong, and the woman is smart, sensible and finds a solution. The stereotypical gay character is usually the comic relief, and I think most people would not feel right about laughing at a butch lesbian.
Also, when you think of young kids growing up, it is more acceptable for little girls to be tomboys than it is for little boys to act girly. Give a girl a Tonka truck and people don't care as much, but give a boy a Barbie doll and people don't think it's appropriate. A girl can dress like a "boy" and most people think it's fine & that she's just a tomboy, but if I boy was to wear a dress or even a girly T-shirt, society would think that's inappropriate. So I think feminine gay men have it worse.
Hmm, I think it depends honestly. Because I think that butch women (me) and feminine men have it worse, since they both go against the gender stereotypes of women being feminine and men being masculine. I also agree with your point that there are far more gay men on television shows, than there are lesbians (specifically, butch lesbians). But I do think that when it comes to bigotry, ignorant people think of gay men when they are spewing their hate against gays.
on the surface, gay men have it worse because they seem to get more harassment from homophobes. But the reason homophobes bully gay men is because they think two men having sex is disgusting, but at least they acknowledge that gay men have sex. Whereas with lesbians, many people don't think lesbians can even have sex, because there is no 'penis' involved. so lesbianism don't even get acknowledged as a legitimate form of love expression.
I would have to disagree. I have seen much exposure of the lesbian culture throughout my life. Maybe it was where I lived. Or just the people I was around. But I was exposed to many lesbian relationships, and lesbians in general above gay. It is probably a reason I struggle so much through my life to have a relationship...because I just couldn't find them...lol...I see trhe lesbian community much more accepted with the ppl I am around. and have always grown up with it being the norm.
I think society sees lesbians as just experimenting, but gay men are the "real" gays. By that I mean we are tainted beyond repair, but lesbians have a chance for coming back to the holy hetro-side. Either way both are stigmatized since, if gay men are tainted that leaves us as less than human and saying lesbians that are "experimenting" only degrades their love for each other into a phase.
There are several overlooked factors when people say lesbians are more accepted because "two girls kissing is hot." First of all, lesbian couples don't just parade around at college parties making out with each other while being cheered on by male peers. If the aforementioned (and misguided) situation is true, does western society not objectify lesbians and their sexuality? Aren't only feminine/lipstick lesbians who fit societal norms deemed hot, thereby discriminating "butch lesbians?
I do not think it fair to measure who has it worse. As long as one person feels threatened for being who they are, what they are, what they look like, etc..., then that is one person too many. Everyone is human. For humans to divide based on classifications (male, female, fat, skinny, gay, straight, black, white, latino, asian, wealthy, poor, etc...) shows how infantile we are in our thinking. Growth remains distant as long as society thrives on breaking up humanity into classes.
You don't watch the lesbians in tv because you dont watch the shows with lesbians. In saying that there was only one bi-sexual girl in my grade at school and about 4 or 5 gays including myself.
Im glad you qualify your opinions with "it's just what i see", cuz ur a newbie, want to learn, but busy with college etc... so i think ur view is pretty limited (no offense). Really the ppl who have it the worst are fem guys. They are wearing thier sexuality like a sign for all to judge, or hopefully accept. lesbians are far more accepted by str8 america, for the reasons you mentioned mostly.
2)Representation in the media-they have Ellen and Callie/Arizona from Grey's Anatomy, we have Kurt from Glee and Jack from Will & Grace. I'd rather be underrepresented than misrepresented.
3)Lesbian couples w/kids=more acceptable than gay couples w/kids
4)I think there's a much greater pressure on men to be manly than on women to be ladylike. Men are actually the bitchier sex and thus more exclusive.JMO
i personaly agree with you. i mean im use to seeing a gay guy in there 60's or something. but even though im gay i find it weird to find out a woman in her 60's is a lesbian. idk why lol. i think it goes with how you alsaid woman are seen as moms.
I agree and disagree with you on some points, but in general I think it is a bit harder to be a gay male. Only because the brunt of homophobia and antigay nonsense is aimed at gay men, however.
But in the end I'd say transgendered people have it way worse.
@Casna101 Yeah I think I would agree with you. When you consider the violence, and I would say more extreme hatred, towards gay men I think it's harder overall. I mean how often do you hear of lesbians being bashed, for instance? Obviously transgender people have it much worse than either lesbians or gay men.
Guys defiantly have this manly gender role that is looked upon to be followed in a strictly manner. If they act slightly feminine its looked upon as strange. As opposed to a girl who can be labeled tom boy, whats the term for a boy who acts girly? Think of it this way guys and girls can both wear pants, but a guy wearing a skirt? I've actually heard a person say they can understand lesbians being together because girls are emotional, but two guys is just gross because they have no emotions.
Here's the hierarchy in the USA. Straight white men certainly get the majority, and then straight white women come next. Straight men and then women of color come next, but they occasionally jump above to the top if they are a stereotype that people find funny or "cool". White gay men come next, followed by white lesbians. The lesbians are more accepted socially, but still have fewer resources and are sometimes treated as if will go straight. The gay men/lesbians of color. Lastly, Transgendered.
But heey - I suppose both you and your friend are correct - I mean . . . It really depends on factors like which part of the Earth you live on + The religion in that area (Think of what people in Iraq would do to you!) + the culture praised (Like Africa - were I live - I hate cultures, they keep peeps from choosing the life they want to live) + neighbours` perspectives on the issue + Political level of acceptance + etc. cos in the end, they`re the ones who decide who to oppress, Lesbians / Gays
Your perspective on Lesbian couples .. it never really occured to me. Enlightening. I guess both gay and lesbians share almost every adversity - esp. concerning "gay rights" in general. But regarding acceptance . . . I take your friend's side (sorry cute-dude). Being gay hurts your credibility + professionalism (sp?) most cases. That makes careers like Politics / Business more difficult. In high-school, there are more gay suicides, probably cause boys are rougher than girls?? IDK stay safe =)
It's like comparing apples and oranges. Each has their pluses and minuses in life. I'd say men have it harder to raise children than women. Women have it harder to earn the big money with a career. Coming out is about the same I guess.
Men have it more difficult because women are already perceived as feminine & nurturing. You see a lot more lesbian couples with children because society is okay with "two moms" and a baby. There are more out women in sports & in the media (including news anchors). Men, however, have much higher bars to uphold in society: they can't be seen as weak, feminine, or sensitive. Machismo is glorified in society. Men who act otherwise are marginalized. Name one out man in football or basketball today.
Great vid - you have a way of presenting two sides to an issue without putting anyone down.
I think that in most contexts a lot depends on how different a person is from the "norm." From what I've seem, 'butch' girls don't have it much (if any) easier than 'flamboyant' guys. Maybe the 'hot babe' lesbians are considered sexy by straight guys, but I don't know if that makes life easier for them. I wish more lesbians would see and comment on your vid.
@trisshandy yeah because most of the people who respond are gay guys and we naturally are going to presume that we have it harder because of our own personal experiences. a lot of these comments have been insightful and have made me think. i am enjoying reading everything and thank you for commenting
I think I could write a whole essay on this, but I can't in a comment section - especially when I'm just here procrastinating from studying, lol...But I agree with your friend. To give it a thought, in the news recently there was that photo of a lesbian couple kissing for the Navy's tradition of first-kiss when ships return to port. I read a few comments online at the time questioning if it was two men would it have been more controversial? I think it would have been.
Hmm, i think i agree with your friend on this one. Lesbians kind of do have it easier. Like many have said, a lot of straight guys love them. And usually straight girls I don't think get all uptight around lesbians like some straight guys are around gay guys. You make a good people though about guys wanting to join in on girl on girl action. Definitely true.
I think it would be easier to be a lesbian. Even straight girls engage in lesbian acts, to me making in more normal/acceptable. How many lesbians you hear committing suicide? Not many!
I have to disagree with you. Lesbians, as you said, are more repressed and have a harder time coming out than gays. However, they aren't hated on by straight guys as gay guys would. Gay guys are typically targeted when a debate about homosexuality occurs. Things said about us such as "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", Anal sex statements, so on and so forth.
hey bud, I lived in H-Town in the 80's and hit the club scene with hundreds of lesbos. I've always worked with them and I retired in Cleveland Texas and they are the ones who moved out to the country first, Gay rainbow bumper stickers and all. Just a note on 4 decades of history. Kindred Spirits anyone?
IMO men are tougher on men than women are on women. Men are really tougher on efeminate men. You really are good at this UT thing. Bright witty and on topic.
I dunno...I always thought Gay guys have it harder because when people see men, they picture someone very masculine and the leader of his family and one who can protect. From VERY long ago, Homosexual men were killed for it. But then this would tell me that maybe it IS harder for Lesbian women because less come out (like you said). Genuinely, if a guy met a lesbian couple, he would not care that they were lesbian. If he met a Gay couple, he would be disgusted. Is this because they're men too? hm
Btw, there are three main reasons why there are gay male characters than lesbians in movies and tv. (1) Gay stereotypes (accurate or not) are more entertaining. (2) There is an inexplicable attraction to the entertainment industry in the gay community that doesn't seem to be as prevalent in lesbians. (3) There are way more male writers than female in Hollywood, and men generally aren't comfortable writing for lesbian characters.
It's also worth mentioning how the other sex responds. A lot of straight girls tend to love gay guys in general, if only because they can give insight into guys without the sexual tension. Straight guys may like the fantasy of hot lesbians, but the same kind of friendships aren't as likely to develop. So I guess in that sense it would be harder for lesbians.
Being neither, I think it would be easier to be a lesbian. Women can generally be closer and more intimate with each other, so at the very least it would be easier for a lesbian to go under the radar. Coming out may be more difficult though, because then other girls might not want to be as close for fear that its misinterpreted (which i guess is the same thinking as straight guys being paranoid about having a gay guy in the changeroom).
I definitely think it's more difficult to be a gay man. I think it's one of the few areas where men are treated more harshly than women in American society.
The more defer from the norm, the harder you have it, and that goes equally for lgbt and straight. E.g. a straight guy who subscribes to a goth lifestyle, jet black clothes, listens to introverted music, wears white make-up etc.(stereotype goth, I know), could easily have it much harder than a gay guy who subscribes to a stereo typical male lifestyle (football, beer, red meat and so on). Now I know goths are pretty common these days, but I think you get the point.
research has shown there to be about equal amounts of gay and lesbian oriented people in a population; I do think that lesbians are much more private about their sexuality, and men more extravert about it (probably because men are inherently sex-driven) and this causes more uproar and violence against gays.. at the same time, in questions about relationships, marriage, raising children,etc.. society has a lot less difficulty picturing this for 2 women
Gay men are judged and treated more harshly. The idea of two men together is disgusting to straight men, homophobia and gay jokes are encouraged amongst straight men. Be masculine dude, don't like pink, shopping, or anything perceived as "girly".
Think about a gay boy growing up and knowing he shouldn't like the things he does or feel the way he does as it is girly. Lesbians are more accepted as a womans sexuality is used constantly to sell everything. Gay men have it worse.
it's very double, I think you're both right, in some ways.. the gendernorm for men is much more strickt than it is on woman, but at the same time women are still nog 'equal' to men: they earn less money, do not get the same opportunities in corporate world and politics, etc.. so women tend to 'not stick out' if they're 'different' - whereas men don't give a f if they color outside the box a bit because they already have quite a strong position in society..
Yeah, I'd have to agree that it's harder for guys. It's in TV and movies and stuff for ratings really. If there is a lesbian, no one really blinks any more. Gay guys exude the counterculture because the perception of male gender roles don't have much leeway whereas women have been fighting for much longer to expand their roles and it's much more accepted. Lesbians, being a large part of that movement are included I think. Still, I agree that transgendered people have it pretty rough.
The better question would be whether it would be easier to be a woman or a gay man. The answer would still be gay man, mainly because of religious fanaticism, but homophobia and misogyny are very closely related issues.
hmm..I'd agree with your friend. I think society is a lot more tolerant of women breaking out of their gender roles nowadays. I think, more often than not, if a man is more "effeminate" or allows himself to be "dominated" buy another man, its more likely to be met with hostility. Not saying that all gay people are effeminate or dominated, but that's some of the generalizations that people apply to us. And also, a lesbian couple would be able to able to conceive much easier than a gay couple.
I think your friend was right. With a man, there's a bigger possibility that he'd, for example, be beaten or be the victim of violence. If you're a gay man, straight guys will see you as "fair game" to discriminate against, because you're still a guy, but they'd be more reluctant to do so to a woman. Heterosexual women, even if they're homophobic, don't manifest their hatred towards lesbians in ways that are as bold, nor do heterosexual men.
I disagree and to use a small example, at my school lesbians are very accepted and out where as gay men are very shunned for it. Lesbians mix in with the norm. at my school where as a gay guy is still made into a big deal.
I agree with you on the first issue (and not just because you're cute xD) about lesbians having a tougher time with straight guys. But your second point, when you say that women have a tougher time coming out...what facts support this statement? I feel like that alone makes that argument null and void. Also, lesbians on TV are portrayed just as frequently as men. Whether they're portrayed correctly or not remains to be seen by the lesbians out there, but still, they're there.
I've never met an out lesbian, so I wouldn't know much about it. Though I do think that it would probably be much harder to be a manly lesbian than a girly lesbian because society doesn't seem accepting of masculine women.
One thing that I've realized is that I've heard NUMEROUS stories of gay men who were pushed to suicide. Yet I honestly cannot recall ever hearing about lesbian women suicides. After a quick google search, I know now that it definitely happens. But it really seems like the rate of gay male suicides are much larger than those of females. I'm not trying to belittle the seriousness of suicides for lesbians, but to me that reinforces for me that gay men have it harder than lesbian women.
(last part)...and thus it is because of that insecurity that makes some guys go out and say or do nasty things to gay men in a desperate attempt to show everyone how 'straight' he is. Lesbians do get their share of grief from bigots, but not nearly as bad as the grief, harrassment, beatings that gay men have to suffer through. So, I politely disagree. :)
I mean, just look at how many stereotypes there are for gay men than there are for lesbians. WAY more! And we're always depicted as loud, feminine clowns in mainstream media. Men in entertainment are even sometimes forced/badgered to come out. Whereas if it was a woman it would just be a feminist sexuality type thing.
I think whether things are easier for a gay man or a gay woman depends on the sphere of life that is under focus. Overall, probably the relative degrees of difficulty as between gay men and women are incalculable.
(continued)...and while it's true that straight men do like the sight of girl on girl action, and wouldn't liked to be the 'meat' in that 'sandwich', but just because he can't be apart of that relationship doesn't mean that it's harder for lesbians. They aren't negatively impacted by that, the straight guy is. Girls also don't make such a fuss over whether some girl in their locker room is gay, where as straight guys most often do, because a lot of men are insecure about their sexuality.
Well, they say the more boys a woman has the more the female's body tries to feminize the fetus, so maybe that's why there's more gay men and less lesbian girls. Idk lol. But I definitely think it's harder to be a gay man than a lesbian. A gay man is often seen as weak/useless since men are supposed to be the workers. Also, even though men think lesbians are hot and want to be a part of it, most are happy just watching. So yeah, it's definitely more glorified than being a gay man.
You're cute as hell, but...I must disagree. I do believe it's harder for gay men. There are many out lesbians in the media and society in general. Rosie, Ellen, Bianca Montgomery from All My Children, etc. they are looked up to or at least accepted with little backlash. Gay men on the other hand are labeled as 'fudgepackers' and 'perverts' who bigots argue 'shouldn't be allowed around children'. Gay men are prone to being bullied or physically attacked than gay women... (continued)
I think it's easier for lesbians to be accepted in society than gay men, but since they are women they have that added stress of sexism, so in that sense I think it's a little harder for lesbians than gay men. It is definitely harder for gay men in the context of being accepted because of all of the homophobia in some straight men and women. It's very arguable either way though, it's hard to make such a general statement. It obviously can vary from region to region.
I tend to agree with you; the raw facts speak alot for themselves - there are more gay guys than lesbians, so the world has had more time to accept gays.
It's easier to be a lesbian, I was in the break room with 3 of my co workers and it was 2 other guys me and a girl and me and one guy were gay and the girl was bi and the straight guy didnt really care about me and the guy but when the girl said she was bi he was like ok thats hot.
its no surprise that streight guys have more respect for lesbiens then gay boys
I had freind who told me its ok for lesbiens to be gay but not guys and he used to pick on gay boys and make them cry and i know that men like to masterbait to lesbien porn which means that you lesbiens are seen as entertainment in the eys of men how do you gays and lesbiens feel about this GO ON NOW POST A COMMENT PLEASE
evolution759 14 hours ago
I don't think it is really something you can measure. We all have our struggles and we all have our triumphs but in the end it all really depends on how it is perceived by that individual person. You may see a "lipstick lesbian" get hit on by a guy and think nothing of it but the woman may get frustrated because she wants to look good but she gets unwanted attention. Same for an attractive gay man though. It is all speculation and no one could really say who has it worse. Just my opinion.
crimsonwolf3421 18 hours ago
I think lesbians would have it easier. Though I have to ask how is it that a dudes that is all about females like straights dudes are, why is it we (guy gays) don't associate straight guys with femininity. It just seems so backwards....straight guys reject guys, and are much more comfortable with femininity, but for whatever reason, everyone wants to take the guy who is into men and try to feminise them.
Very strange
alicevana 2 days ago
Some good thought. I have actually never thought of it that way myself. But valid points
dennis6843 3 days ago
Even though the "norm" is more lax in masculine girls than is to feminine boys, lesbians have some disadvantages in their openness to express their sexual desires.
If men express their sexual needs there is no problem whatsoever, it even could be seen as an award-able behavior by society, on the other hand, sexual needs in women are not a subject to talk about (specially in a christian society). As women "should" have sex for procreation not for pleasure, lesbians breaks two society "norms".
aux654987 6 days ago
The social norms for women in society are much more lenient that those for men, gay or not. Gay is not a social norm to begin with, but for women to hug, hold hands, go to the bathroom together, what have you, that's all within the social norm for women. For men to do the same thing... no. Not knowing the ratio of closeted gay men to women, I can't really speak to that. But I do understand that it is much easier for women to be close to one another than for men.
InfernoMutant 1 week ago
im so attracted to you right now! :p
DominicDiasVevo 1 week ago
i think being gay is much more harder than being a lesbian, lesbians is more tolerated than gay men
Chrisbit1 2 weeks ago
I think it depends on where you grow up. To quote one of my uncles when it came to the topic of lesbians, "Anybody who likes ****** as much as I do can't be all that bad." On the other hand, gay men were despised, because they were seen as less than men.
ttowert 2 weeks ago
I think it depends on the individual but good video!
roryyooooo 3 weeks ago
You're so cute! Ah!-3
Wubbie77 3 weeks ago
I think that perhaps lesbians arent overly represented by the media because gay men are generally the ones fighting for acceptance.... I mean, lesbians are too but Ive always thought that gay men face the most ridicule and what not from their peers. Overall though, I dont think this is a straight foward topic but rather a multifaceted one.
jamstrings100 3 weeks ago
i have to agree with you on this
justmetcmf 4 weeks ago
i def agree with u on this. on the surface it seems like lesbians have it easier but i think it's just bc lesbian behaviors are more tolerated since female sexuality is so objectified by society that those behaviors became a turn on. but in the root of the issue of homosexuality, lesbians do have a tougher time dealing with prejudice bc childbearing is an issue, it makes it harder for them for sure. both sides have issues but i def believe that there are a higher number of closeted lesbians.
brucelee0413 4 weeks ago
You say that the stereotyped gays on tv are accepted, but often I feel they are there as comic relief - and that people are laughing at the character. I sometimes feel like this is not acceptance. Accpetance is having characters who are not tired old stereotypes there for comic relief, but real relatable characters who aren't there just because of their sexuality.
Ryan3789 4 weeks ago
Gay men have it WAY worse than lesbian sorry... People will except two girls kissing and holding hands, or showing lesbian scenes in movies and not make a big deal out of it, but if a man does it... OH ITS A BIG DEAL. Why you think its mainly Gay men commiting sucide and less lesbians? Because its harder to be a Gay man than to be a Gay women. We both got it bad but im sorry a lesbian is always put above gay men for some reason I will never understand u_u
Equality4ya 1 month ago
I don't think our society is ready to have a gay male version of Ellen Degeneres or Rachel Maddow. People have a much more difficult time accepting that men are gay than they do accepting that women are lesbians. That being said, everybody's experience is different, so there's no way to say all gay men have a tougher time than all lesbians (or the opposite). So I mostly agree with your friend. Interesting points, however.
gocallyoualawyer 1 month ago
Where do you live that you don't see that many lesbians? Here in Cincinnati there is a strong lesbian community. And they are the ones, unlike gays, that dare to show PDA and hold hands in public.
I am gay myself and I wouldn't adventure to talk about how it is for lesbians. Why don't you meet some of them first?
gregorio73 1 month ago
What you said sort of reminds me of stuff I'm taking in my Language and Gender course and what people discuss in the LGBTQA lounge on my campus.
KairuRyu777 1 month ago
You're so cute, I just wanna cuddle with you.
oxforddictonary 1 month ago 2
honestly, who cares who has it worse. In the end, it doesn't matter if your gay or lesbian, it's difficult for both.
TrenDevise 1 month ago
I wouldnt say its easier for either sex... but in our society it's almost become glorified to be a lesbian based on male reaction...
Bencoy19 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Well they are the bearer of our children. There is no getting around that.
How do you know lots of girls don't watch your vids? Girls like hot gay guys lol.
SkyKingEX 1 month ago
@SkyKingEX YouTube analytics. I have like 97% male viewership.....
jacobyoutubification 1 month ago
@jacobyoutubification ... so out of the 2197 views you have now 2131 guys think your the most dreamy guy on the internet ;). I do agree with your view on the issue to some extent though and I never thought about it that way. I just didn't have time to do a long analytic comment. nor do I now. Maybe later :D
SkyKingEX 1 month ago
Yeah, I definitely disagree with you. But thumbs up anyway, at least you put it out there.
DiederickABecker 1 month ago
A lot of lengthy responces. I'll just keep mine simple: Hi :)
Justobecontinued 1 month ago
Continuing from where I left off, us gays and lesbians need to support each other, just like we need the the support from people outside of the gay/lesbian arena. Without support, we'll both have it hard. Hence, we should all be THERE for each other versus arguing about who has it worse........Show some love everyone.
OtterAquafina 1 month ago
I think gays and lesbians have a wide array of things they deal with, but you have to be in their specific shoes to understand it. As a gay man, I find that my experience since coming out 4 years ago has been MUCH easier than I expected. I partially think it has to do with where I live, but many of the friends I came out too already knew I was gay. Nevertheless, many gays and lesbians have it WAY harder than I do, & @ the end of the day, all I could advise is for us to support each other. =)
OtterAquafina 1 month ago
I think that lesbians are put down in the way they are used to sexualize things for men. They aren't taken as seriously as gay men, they are made into a joke. It's not fair to gay women.
FUNNYMONEYKID10 1 month ago 2
I think the reason we don't really see lesbians in movies or tv shows is that it is socially less acceptable to make fun of women than to make fun of men, regardless of their sexual orientation. Notice in most commercials where there is a man and a woman, the man is usually being stupid, silly or wrong, and the woman is smart, sensible and finds a solution. The stereotypical gay character is usually the comic relief, and I think most people would not feel right about laughing at a butch lesbian.
seblepage 1 month ago
Also, when you think of young kids growing up, it is more acceptable for little girls to be tomboys than it is for little boys to act girly. Give a girl a Tonka truck and people don't care as much, but give a boy a Barbie doll and people don't think it's appropriate. A girl can dress like a "boy" and most people think it's fine & that she's just a tomboy, but if I boy was to wear a dress or even a girly T-shirt, society would think that's inappropriate. So I think feminine gay men have it worse.
12thLeveIWizardKing 1 month ago 10
@12thLeveIWizardKing Very good point
jacobyoutubification 1 month ago
Hmm, I think it depends honestly. Because I think that butch women (me) and feminine men have it worse, since they both go against the gender stereotypes of women being feminine and men being masculine. I also agree with your point that there are far more gay men on television shows, than there are lesbians (specifically, butch lesbians). But I do think that when it comes to bigotry, ignorant people think of gay men when they are spewing their hate against gays.
12thLeveIWizardKing 1 month ago
on the surface, gay men have it worse because they seem to get more harassment from homophobes. But the reason homophobes bully gay men is because they think two men having sex is disgusting, but at least they acknowledge that gay men have sex. Whereas with lesbians, many people don't think lesbians can even have sex, because there is no 'penis' involved. so lesbianism don't even get acknowledged as a legitimate form of love expression.
Homophobia is heavily intertwined with sexism.
kudoslly 1 month ago
I would have to disagree. I have seen much exposure of the lesbian culture throughout my life. Maybe it was where I lived. Or just the people I was around. But I was exposed to many lesbian relationships, and lesbians in general above gay. It is probably a reason I struggle so much through my life to have a relationship...because I just couldn't find them...lol...I see trhe lesbian community much more accepted with the ppl I am around. and have always grown up with it being the norm.
jwo92911 1 month ago
I think society sees lesbians as just experimenting, but gay men are the "real" gays. By that I mean we are tainted beyond repair, but lesbians have a chance for coming back to the holy hetro-side. Either way both are stigmatized since, if gay men are tainted that leaves us as less than human and saying lesbians that are "experimenting" only degrades their love for each other into a phase.
cannonie 1 month ago
@jacobyoutubification i agree with ur friend cuz im latin and is so hard to come out i think the guys is hard then a girls to come out
riesgo79 1 month ago
Hi Basically I agree. But I believe It's much more difficult to be a gay in Japan than to be a lesbian in U.S. Don't you think so?
UjiTsuna 1 month ago
Great topic!!!z
Stay adorable!
QueenTubevision 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Great topic!!!z
Stay adorable!
QueenTubevision 1 month ago
Great topic!!!z
Stay adorable!
QueenTubevision 1 month ago
p.s jacob is so cute
teamdonato2 1 month ago
There are several overlooked factors when people say lesbians are more accepted because "two girls kissing is hot." First of all, lesbian couples don't just parade around at college parties making out with each other while being cheered on by male peers. If the aforementioned (and misguided) situation is true, does western society not objectify lesbians and their sexuality? Aren't only feminine/lipstick lesbians who fit societal norms deemed hot, thereby discriminating "butch lesbians?
teamdonato2 1 month ago
I see more lesbians being fine between people than gays.
PS: aren't you the cutest thing on youtube?
MasterJessav 1 month ago
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ChaChingMonay 1 month ago
@ChaChingMonay is your comment for real. you have a serious case of confirmation bias and scientific inaccuracy.
Atemporal 1 month ago
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TheStopper333 1 month ago
I do not think it fair to measure who has it worse. As long as one person feels threatened for being who they are, what they are, what they look like, etc..., then that is one person too many. Everyone is human. For humans to divide based on classifications (male, female, fat, skinny, gay, straight, black, white, latino, asian, wealthy, poor, etc...) shows how infantile we are in our thinking. Growth remains distant as long as society thrives on breaking up humanity into classes.
jaydawg34 1 month ago 18
You don't watch the lesbians in tv because you dont watch the shows with lesbians. In saying that there was only one bi-sexual girl in my grade at school and about 4 or 5 gays including myself.
Markstubation01 1 month ago
Agree with @alexmanian about the hierarchy, but I don't think it's just an American thing..
sander91nl 1 month ago
Im glad you qualify your opinions with "it's just what i see", cuz ur a newbie, want to learn, but busy with college etc... so i think ur view is pretty limited (no offense). Really the ppl who have it the worst are fem guys. They are wearing thier sexuality like a sign for all to judge, or hopefully accept. lesbians are far more accepted by str8 america, for the reasons you mentioned mostly.
sleekcartim 1 month ago
I'm sorry, but I agree with your friend.
1)Two girls kissing = sexy,two guys kissing = gross.
2)Representation in the media-they have Ellen and Callie/Arizona from Grey's Anatomy, we have Kurt from Glee and Jack from Will & Grace. I'd rather be underrepresented than misrepresented.
3)Lesbian couples w/kids=more acceptable than gay couples w/kids
4)I think there's a much greater pressure on men to be manly than on women to be ladylike. Men are actually the bitchier sex and thus more exclusive.JMO
sjwrites7 1 month ago 2
I rthink lesbians have a tougher time. For sure. Poor buddies
Darkman756 1 month ago
i personaly agree with you. i mean im use to seeing a gay guy in there 60's or something. but even though im gay i find it weird to find out a woman in her 60's is a lesbian. idk why lol. i think it goes with how you alsaid woman are seen as moms.
MrJonathancompton 1 month ago
I agree and disagree with you on some points, but in general I think it is a bit harder to be a gay male. Only because the brunt of homophobia and antigay nonsense is aimed at gay men, however.
But in the end I'd say transgendered people have it way worse.
Casna101 1 month ago
@Casna101 Yeah I think I would agree with you. When you consider the violence, and I would say more extreme hatred, towards gay men I think it's harder overall. I mean how often do you hear of lesbians being bashed, for instance? Obviously transgender people have it much worse than either lesbians or gay men.
teutonicpenguin 1 month ago
I think people in general are more accepting lesbians than gay men.
TheCynedd 1 month ago 2
Guys defiantly have this manly gender role that is looked upon to be followed in a strictly manner. If they act slightly feminine its looked upon as strange. As opposed to a girl who can be labeled tom boy, whats the term for a boy who acts girly? Think of it this way guys and girls can both wear pants, but a guy wearing a skirt? I've actually heard a person say they can understand lesbians being together because girls are emotional, but two guys is just gross because they have no emotions.
Andrewisgorgeous10xo 1 month ago 2
@Andrewisgorgeous10xo yeah homophobia is a subspecies of sexism.
Atemporal 1 month ago
boyfriend tag!!!!
lom92 1 month ago
The bigots disrespect gay men and lesbians differently, but they still disrespect us all.
GyThanksGd 1 month ago 2
Here's the hierarchy in the USA. Straight white men certainly get the majority, and then straight white women come next. Straight men and then women of color come next, but they occasionally jump above to the top if they are a stereotype that people find funny or "cool". White gay men come next, followed by white lesbians. The lesbians are more accepted socially, but still have fewer resources and are sometimes treated as if will go straight. The gay men/lesbians of color. Lastly, Transgendered.
alexmanian 1 month ago
But heey - I suppose both you and your friend are correct - I mean . . . It really depends on factors like which part of the Earth you live on + The religion in that area (Think of what people in Iraq would do to you!) + the culture praised (Like Africa - were I live - I hate cultures, they keep peeps from choosing the life they want to live) + neighbours` perspectives on the issue + Political level of acceptance + etc. cos in the end, they`re the ones who decide who to oppress, Lesbians / Gays
Sambuddy11 1 month ago
Your perspective on Lesbian couples .. it never really occured to me. Enlightening. I guess both gay and lesbians share almost every adversity - esp. concerning "gay rights" in general. But regarding acceptance . . . I take your friend's side (sorry cute-dude). Being gay hurts your credibility + professionalism (sp?) most cases. That makes careers like Politics / Business more difficult. In high-school, there are more gay suicides, probably cause boys are rougher than girls?? IDK stay safe =)
Sambuddy11 1 month ago
It's like comparing apples and oranges. Each has their pluses and minuses in life. I'd say men have it harder to raise children than women. Women have it harder to earn the big money with a career. Coming out is about the same I guess.
johntakai8429 1 month ago
Men have it more difficult because women are already perceived as feminine & nurturing. You see a lot more lesbian couples with children because society is okay with "two moms" and a baby. There are more out women in sports & in the media (including news anchors). Men, however, have much higher bars to uphold in society: they can't be seen as weak, feminine, or sensitive. Machismo is glorified in society. Men who act otherwise are marginalized. Name one out man in football or basketball today.
will342 1 month ago
I agree with your friend I see a lot more married with kids lesbian couples then men.
kurakai18 1 month ago
Great vid - you have a way of presenting two sides to an issue without putting anyone down.
I think that in most contexts a lot depends on how different a person is from the "norm." From what I've seem, 'butch' girls don't have it much (if any) easier than 'flamboyant' guys. Maybe the 'hot babe' lesbians are considered sexy by straight guys, but I don't know if that makes life easier for them. I wish more lesbians would see and comment on your vid.
trisshandy 1 month ago 6
@trisshandy yeah because most of the people who respond are gay guys and we naturally are going to presume that we have it harder because of our own personal experiences. a lot of these comments have been insightful and have made me think. i am enjoying reading everything and thank you for commenting
jacobyoutubification 1 month ago
I agree with your friend, sorry xD
alecz4eva 1 month ago
I think I could write a whole essay on this, but I can't in a comment section - especially when I'm just here procrastinating from studying, lol...But I agree with your friend. To give it a thought, in the news recently there was that photo of a lesbian couple kissing for the Navy's tradition of first-kiss when ships return to port. I read a few comments online at the time questioning if it was two men would it have been more controversial? I think it would have been.
damienbp 1 month ago
society is too quick to label everything. I say lets love and be with whoever we want. :)
TheMuskokaguy 1 month ago
Hmm, i think i agree with your friend on this one. Lesbians kind of do have it easier. Like many have said, a lot of straight guys love them. And usually straight girls I don't think get all uptight around lesbians like some straight guys are around gay guys. You make a good people though about guys wanting to join in on girl on girl action. Definitely true.
Beatlesforever1819 1 month ago
both WRONG! its hard for each for gays and lesbians its not a competition to whos life sucks worse.
TheRenegadeStarr 1 month ago
I think it would be easier to be a lesbian. Even straight girls engage in lesbian acts, to me making in more normal/acceptable. How many lesbians you hear committing suicide? Not many!
sinrboy 1 month ago
I have to disagree with you. Lesbians, as you said, are more repressed and have a harder time coming out than gays. However, they aren't hated on by straight guys as gay guys would. Gay guys are typically targeted when a debate about homosexuality occurs. Things said about us such as "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", Anal sex statements, so on and so forth.
PinaColada4645 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
really LOVE to see you here on youtube again - welcome back - hope you are going to do some more videos in the next days/weeks/month :-)
DemiSecco 1 month ago
hey bud, I lived in H-Town in the 80's and hit the club scene with hundreds of lesbos. I've always worked with them and I retired in Cleveland Texas and they are the ones who moved out to the country first, Gay rainbow bumper stickers and all. Just a note on 4 decades of history. Kindred Spirits anyone?
driverain2 1 month ago
IMO men are tougher on men than women are on women. Men are really tougher on efeminate men. You really are good at this UT thing. Bright witty and on topic.
b4804514 1 month ago
I dunno...I always thought Gay guys have it harder because when people see men, they picture someone very masculine and the leader of his family and one who can protect. From VERY long ago, Homosexual men were killed for it. But then this would tell me that maybe it IS harder for Lesbian women because less come out (like you said). Genuinely, if a guy met a lesbian couple, he would not care that they were lesbian. If he met a Gay couple, he would be disgusted. Is this because they're men too? hm
DanZyG6 1 month ago
1. your ideas are interesting, but isn't there a lesbian couple in glee that has like friends and stuff?
2. I think your friend is right.
3. I'm a girl.
4. You're so cute!
ithinkthatmightbebad 1 month ago
Btw, there are three main reasons why there are gay male characters than lesbians in movies and tv. (1) Gay stereotypes (accurate or not) are more entertaining. (2) There is an inexplicable attraction to the entertainment industry in the gay community that doesn't seem to be as prevalent in lesbians. (3) There are way more male writers than female in Hollywood, and men generally aren't comfortable writing for lesbian characters.
chasef89 1 month ago
It's also worth mentioning how the other sex responds. A lot of straight girls tend to love gay guys in general, if only because they can give insight into guys without the sexual tension. Straight guys may like the fantasy of hot lesbians, but the same kind of friendships aren't as likely to develop. So I guess in that sense it would be harder for lesbians.
chasef89 1 month ago
Being neither, I think it would be easier to be a lesbian. Women can generally be closer and more intimate with each other, so at the very least it would be easier for a lesbian to go under the radar. Coming out may be more difficult though, because then other girls might not want to be as close for fear that its misinterpreted (which i guess is the same thinking as straight guys being paranoid about having a gay guy in the changeroom).
chasef89 1 month ago
I definitely think it's more difficult to be a gay man. I think it's one of the few areas where men are treated more harshly than women in American society.
agentxorange89 1 month ago
I think its easier for them because they get less bullied than the gays... But maybe on other side its harder... hard to tell when you not a lesbian
vincentbelanger1 1 month ago
The more defer from the norm, the harder you have it, and that goes equally for lgbt and straight. E.g. a straight guy who subscribes to a goth lifestyle, jet black clothes, listens to introverted music, wears white make-up etc.(stereotype goth, I know), could easily have it much harder than a gay guy who subscribes to a stereo typical male lifestyle (football, beer, red meat and so on). Now I know goths are pretty common these days, but I think you get the point.
imprssvobsssn 1 month ago
research has shown there to be about equal amounts of gay and lesbian oriented people in a population; I do think that lesbians are much more private about their sexuality, and men more extravert about it (probably because men are inherently sex-driven) and this causes more uproar and violence against gays.. at the same time, in questions about relationships, marriage, raising children,etc.. society has a lot less difficulty picturing this for 2 women
it's interesting, but hard to compare
-roel
roelvanacker 1 month ago
You should do a video standing up so we can see that bod!
bpuma08 1 month ago
Have to agree with your friend.
Etiros 1 month ago
Gay men are judged and treated more harshly. The idea of two men together is disgusting to straight men, homophobia and gay jokes are encouraged amongst straight men. Be masculine dude, don't like pink, shopping, or anything perceived as "girly".
Think about a gay boy growing up and knowing he shouldn't like the things he does or feel the way he does as it is girly. Lesbians are more accepted as a womans sexuality is used constantly to sell everything. Gay men have it worse.
aaronlosing 1 month ago
it's very double, I think you're both right, in some ways.. the gendernorm for men is much more strickt than it is on woman, but at the same time women are still nog 'equal' to men: they earn less money, do not get the same opportunities in corporate world and politics, etc.. so women tend to 'not stick out' if they're 'different' - whereas men don't give a f if they color outside the box a bit because they already have quite a strong position in society..
roelvanacker 1 month ago
Yeah, I'd have to agree that it's harder for guys. It's in TV and movies and stuff for ratings really. If there is a lesbian, no one really blinks any more. Gay guys exude the counterculture because the perception of male gender roles don't have much leeway whereas women have been fighting for much longer to expand their roles and it's much more accepted. Lesbians, being a large part of that movement are included I think. Still, I agree that transgendered people have it pretty rough.
carbajac 1 month ago
The better question would be whether it would be easier to be a woman or a gay man. The answer would still be gay man, mainly because of religious fanaticism, but homophobia and misogyny are very closely related issues.
TheDESTROLYS 1 month ago
hmm..I'd agree with your friend. I think society is a lot more tolerant of women breaking out of their gender roles nowadays. I think, more often than not, if a man is more "effeminate" or allows himself to be "dominated" buy another man, its more likely to be met with hostility. Not saying that all gay people are effeminate or dominated, but that's some of the generalizations that people apply to us. And also, a lesbian couple would be able to able to conceive much easier than a gay couple.
RedAndBlackCrayons 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Are your legs broken, or are you in a wheelchair? I dont think youve ever stood up. jw
xTrophh 1 month ago
I think your friend was right. With a man, there's a bigger possibility that he'd, for example, be beaten or be the victim of violence. If you're a gay man, straight guys will see you as "fair game" to discriminate against, because you're still a guy, but they'd be more reluctant to do so to a woman. Heterosexual women, even if they're homophobic, don't manifest their hatred towards lesbians in ways that are as bold, nor do heterosexual men.
jklolbrblmfao 1 month ago
I disagree and to use a small example, at my school lesbians are very accepted and out where as gay men are very shunned for it. Lesbians mix in with the norm. at my school where as a gay guy is still made into a big deal.
JustAnotherOtherDay 1 month ago
I agree with you on the first issue (and not just because you're cute xD) about lesbians having a tougher time with straight guys. But your second point, when you say that women have a tougher time coming out...what facts support this statement? I feel like that alone makes that argument null and void. Also, lesbians on TV are portrayed just as frequently as men. Whether they're portrayed correctly or not remains to be seen by the lesbians out there, but still, they're there.
Lifediscussion 1 month ago
I've never met an out lesbian, so I wouldn't know much about it. Though I do think that it would probably be much harder to be a manly lesbian than a girly lesbian because society doesn't seem accepting of masculine women.
MrRi3m4nn 1 month ago
One thing that I've realized is that I've heard NUMEROUS stories of gay men who were pushed to suicide. Yet I honestly cannot recall ever hearing about lesbian women suicides. After a quick google search, I know now that it definitely happens. But it really seems like the rate of gay male suicides are much larger than those of females. I'm not trying to belittle the seriousness of suicides for lesbians, but to me that reinforces for me that gay men have it harder than lesbian women.
angelarts 1 month ago
Are your legs broken, or are you in a wheelchair? I dont think youve ever stood up. jw
xTrophh 1 month ago 2
@xTrophh haha i just don't see the point in making a video while standing up
jacobyoutubification 1 month ago 2
(last part)...and thus it is because of that insecurity that makes some guys go out and say or do nasty things to gay men in a desperate attempt to show everyone how 'straight' he is. Lesbians do get their share of grief from bigots, but not nearly as bad as the grief, harrassment, beatings that gay men have to suffer through. So, I politely disagree. :)
KendallHartz 1 month ago
Your friend is correct.
YouWillDeal 1 month ago 28
I mean, just look at how many stereotypes there are for gay men than there are for lesbians. WAY more! And we're always depicted as loud, feminine clowns in mainstream media. Men in entertainment are even sometimes forced/badgered to come out. Whereas if it was a woman it would just be a feminist sexuality type thing.
TopCityPrince 1 month ago
I think whether things are easier for a gay man or a gay woman depends on the sphere of life that is under focus. Overall, probably the relative degrees of difficulty as between gay men and women are incalculable.
TruthAndAllInBetween 1 month ago
(continued)...and while it's true that straight men do like the sight of girl on girl action, and wouldn't liked to be the 'meat' in that 'sandwich', but just because he can't be apart of that relationship doesn't mean that it's harder for lesbians. They aren't negatively impacted by that, the straight guy is. Girls also don't make such a fuss over whether some girl in their locker room is gay, where as straight guys most often do, because a lot of men are insecure about their sexuality.
KendallHartz 1 month ago
Well, they say the more boys a woman has the more the female's body tries to feminize the fetus, so maybe that's why there's more gay men and less lesbian girls. Idk lol. But I definitely think it's harder to be a gay man than a lesbian. A gay man is often seen as weak/useless since men are supposed to be the workers. Also, even though men think lesbians are hot and want to be a part of it, most are happy just watching. So yeah, it's definitely more glorified than being a gay man.
TopCityPrince 1 month ago
You're cute as hell, but...I must disagree. I do believe it's harder for gay men. There are many out lesbians in the media and society in general. Rosie, Ellen, Bianca Montgomery from All My Children, etc. they are looked up to or at least accepted with little backlash. Gay men on the other hand are labeled as 'fudgepackers' and 'perverts' who bigots argue 'shouldn't be allowed around children'. Gay men are prone to being bullied or physically attacked than gay women... (continued)
KendallHartz 1 month ago
if anything I think that Gays and Lesbians have it easier than transgendered people
CuddleBunE 1 month ago 25
@CuddleBunE Good point.
lemonrain13 1 month ago
@CuddleBunE definitely true
jacobyoutubification 1 month ago
I think it's easier for lesbians to be accepted in society than gay men, but since they are women they have that added stress of sexism, so in that sense I think it's a little harder for lesbians than gay men. It is definitely harder for gay men in the context of being accepted because of all of the homophobia in some straight men and women. It's very arguable either way though, it's hard to make such a general statement. It obviously can vary from region to region.
lemonrain13 1 month ago
I tend to agree with you; the raw facts speak alot for themselves - there are more gay guys than lesbians, so the world has had more time to accept gays.
youthadam 1 month ago
It's easier to be a lesbian, I was in the break room with 3 of my co workers and it was 2 other guys me and a girl and me and one guy were gay and the girl was bi and the straight guy didnt really care about me and the guy but when the girl said she was bi he was like ok thats hot.
theoddone2992 1 month ago
Grr! Why do ppl always beat me?!? lol. Ok I'ma watch the video now XD
TopCityPrince 1 month ago
I think I'm first lol
TopCityPrince 1 month ago
i am very impressed lol!
Gongack 1 month ago